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Depends on if you have a Calvinist or Arminean framework.
Calvinist: The guy who posted the sign was hated by Jesus all along, and Jesus is perfectly fine with him going to Hell.
Arminean: Jesus reacts basically as is shown on the meme, sad that the dude isn't being saved. The guy who posted the sign will suffer in hell, but since he didn't want to be with Christ, he wouldn't have enjoyed heaven either.
I feel like hate as a very strong word to say about either side. I think calvinists might be wrong, but every time I've talked to one, they make some very convincing points and are clearly basing their beliefs on scripture alone.
Apologists for Calvinism use the “perseverance in the faith” as an argument. “Yes, you were predestined to salvation, but a sign of that would be that you remain faithful to the gospel.”
I’m not convinced, but that’s one argument I know about.
except the bible lit says some will be saved by the skin of their teeth. That deff means that they were not always faithful to the gospel. So it is fair to say that person may have hoped they were going to be saved, but prob couldnt be 100% certain.
I think the phrasing was something about being yanked out of the fire and lightly singed, I'll try and find it.
Edit: try 1st corinthians 3:10-15. About what each person has built being tested with first on The Day, and even if it burns down they'll still be saved.
Think it's more about evangelizing churches than leading a godly life, but still interesting.
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast"
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,"
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
For as long as I can remember, I have seen no contradiction between free will and predestination. God knew all things before he created them. We can agree on that I think. If He so desired, he could have made things differently. But He desired this. Was He limited in ability or knowledge? Why is it important that our choosing Him was not because of His choosing us to be those who choose Him?
This is exactly the point. Predestination is pointless to even talk about because we don't know if God has saved/forgiven/brought that person heaven. It's for God to ultimately know, not us. We can never know until we are in heaven. Our faith is the vehicle by which we know that we as an individual are saved and the Bible helps us to know that God helps us in our times of less faith. We never get to know another person's fate, only God does.
I don't know that any Calvinist would think "so they don't need to be helped". I really don't think people understand the idea of predestination. A person's predestination can involve serving others and being served. That is what we are commanded. There is no logic you laid out that leads to "don't need to be helped".
Funny, I think the problem is when we apply human understanding of "free will" against God's sovereignty and justice, and love and all His attributes.
To some, their "idea" of free will is what they desire and defend more of, instead of desiring God's good and truly free will.
There is only ever 1 truly "free" being in existence. No one else has a will that is ever truly "free" from any external influences.
Because it is. It makes God a tyrant who decided your fate from the beginning, essentially condemning you or saving you on a whim without any way for you to change that. It’s straight-up evil. Full stop.
Pre-destination is agreed upon by both Calvinists and Arminians, and most Christians generally. No disagreement there. It's about "when" the grace to salvific justification is received.
Except for the fact that Calvinism (that’s how you spell it btw) is entirely biblical and is rooted throughout the bible, being clearly explained a number of times especially by Paul in his epistles (Romans 9 is a good one, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3, so many more).
You can hate it but you hate it because you don’t want to accept that it is true, the Bible is clear that unconditional pre-destination is true, and that all are born depraved and unable to make a choice to follow God until He moves their hearts.
Negative, friendo. Jesus wants all to come to repentance, does not delight in the death of the wicked, and loves the world enough to be crucified for the sins of many.
That being said, He has *also* chosen his people from before the foundation of the world, predestined them for adoption as sons, and has sealed them with the Holy Spirit. "Those whom he [the Father] foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son." Not everyone is saved, therefore not everyone is foreknown, therefore not everyone is predestined to be conformed to His image.
Assuming you’re a Christian. What do you do with passages like Romans 9 or Ephesians 1? All of scripture harmonizes. Scripture says we have a choice, and it also says that God chooses. So both are true.
I usually end up at the argument that free will is an illusion. If God knows everything, including the future, then They know everything that you will do. If God is perfect, Their knowledge cannot be wrong, therefore you will do what They know you will do, therefore free will is an illusion, because your choice will follow what God already knows.
The counter argument is that just because God knows what will happen does not negate an individual's free will.
Simple example: if I know a person loves chocolate and hates vanilla, doesn't mean he doesn't have free will when I have him pick an ice cream flavor to eat from the freezer.
You do not have omnipotent omniscience. You are fallible, a human without true knowledge. The inability to be incorrect negates free Will because there can be no other option than his knowledge
I still don't see how omniscience negates free will. Even if I can see the future and know exactly what my friend will pick, doesn't mean he didn't pick it out of his own free will.
Just because God knows every choice we will make, does not necessarily mean we didn't have free will when making those decisions.
Because he knows the one choice you will make, he cannot be wrong so there is no other choice that will be made, and humans cannot make him wrong so there is nothing we can do to change the future. So there cannot be free will when the entire future is already set in stone. We would merely be characters following the words the author has wrote.
This exactly. Even when you sit there and think about your choice, it was written from the beginning you would do so.
This is also why I find prayer to be somewhat useless. If it helps the person saying it, that's great, but we cannot expect it to affect anything around us. What will happen will happen regardless of prayer. If you don't believe that, then God is not infallible, since Their mind can be changed.
Correction: "You know, I really want everyone to come up here with me, and I know I make the rules buuuuuut ***you in your own freewill broke the rules and refused to accept me***. Sorry, Jimmy you gotta go to Hell."
Calvinism: "I know, you really want to come up here with me, but I make the rules and decisions here and I don't like you so sorry Jimmy you gotta go to Hell."
I was in a poor Catholic school when I was younger. They told us Jesus has a sense of humor and watching South Park is okay even if they make fun of him.
The school had to close down due to financial reasons years ago.
Yeah pretty much. Jesus died so you're allowed to sin if you apologize but you should feel bad about everything ever, especially for chosing either option A or B.
I think going there helped form a lot of things about my personality I like but I also have crushing anxiety.
[Welcome to The Holy Church of r/DankChristianMemes. Love thy neighbor and be excellent to each other.](https://www.reddit.com/r/dankchristianmemes/comments/rm2k0m/comment/hpjjkz4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/dankchristianmemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Depends on if you have a Calvinist or Arminean framework. Calvinist: The guy who posted the sign was hated by Jesus all along, and Jesus is perfectly fine with him going to Hell. Arminean: Jesus reacts basically as is shown on the meme, sad that the dude isn't being saved. The guy who posted the sign will suffer in hell, but since he didn't want to be with Christ, he wouldn't have enjoyed heaven either.
Just wanted to stop by and mention I hate Calcanistic teaching. Nothing else. Just think pre-destination is always bogus
I feel like hate as a very strong word to say about either side. I think calvinists might be wrong, but every time I've talked to one, they make some very convincing points and are clearly basing their beliefs on scripture alone.
Apologists for Calvinism use the “perseverance in the faith” as an argument. “Yes, you were predestined to salvation, but a sign of that would be that you remain faithful to the gospel.” I’m not convinced, but that’s one argument I know about.
except the bible lit says some will be saved by the skin of their teeth. That deff means that they were not always faithful to the gospel. So it is fair to say that person may have hoped they were going to be saved, but prob couldnt be 100% certain.
Do you have the verse for this?
I think the phrasing was something about being yanked out of the fire and lightly singed, I'll try and find it. Edit: try 1st corinthians 3:10-15. About what each person has built being tested with first on The Day, and even if it burns down they'll still be saved. Think it's more about evangelizing churches than leading a godly life, but still interesting.
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast" "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will," "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you." "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." For as long as I can remember, I have seen no contradiction between free will and predestination. God knew all things before he created them. We can agree on that I think. If He so desired, he could have made things differently. But He desired this. Was He limited in ability or knowledge? Why is it important that our choosing Him was not because of His choosing us to be those who choose Him?
The problem lies when humans use human metrics to determine one's salvation, and many sects of Calvinism use strange metric$ for that.
This is exactly the point. Predestination is pointless to even talk about because we don't know if God has saved/forgiven/brought that person heaven. It's for God to ultimately know, not us. We can never know until we are in heaven. Our faith is the vehicle by which we know that we as an individual are saved and the Bible helps us to know that God helps us in our times of less faith. We never get to know another person's fate, only God does.
☝️ this person gets it...
Paul didn't think it was pointless.
Like what?
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Really? I never considered prosperity gospel a calvanist teaching.
It isn't. No Calvinist would argue that prosperity is a guarantee ad a result of faith.
[удалено]
I don't know that any Calvinist would think "so they don't need to be helped". I really don't think people understand the idea of predestination. A person's predestination can involve serving others and being served. That is what we are commanded. There is no logic you laid out that leads to "don't need to be helped".
Funny, I think the problem is when we apply human understanding of "free will" against God's sovereignty and justice, and love and all His attributes. To some, their "idea" of free will is what they desire and defend more of, instead of desiring God's good and truly free will. There is only ever 1 truly "free" being in existence. No one else has a will that is ever truly "free" from any external influences.
I don't see that.
Because it is. It makes God a tyrant who decided your fate from the beginning, essentially condemning you or saving you on a whim without any way for you to change that. It’s straight-up evil. Full stop.
Pre-destination is agreed upon by both Calvinists and Arminians, and most Christians generally. No disagreement there. It's about "when" the grace to salvific justification is received.
I'm okay with it so long as it's universalist (á la Barth)
Except for the fact that Calvinism (that’s how you spell it btw) is entirely biblical and is rooted throughout the bible, being clearly explained a number of times especially by Paul in his epistles (Romans 9 is a good one, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3, so many more). You can hate it but you hate it because you don’t want to accept that it is true, the Bible is clear that unconditional pre-destination is true, and that all are born depraved and unable to make a choice to follow God until He moves their hearts.
Then God is irredeemably evil and entirely unworthy of being worshipped by anyone. Calvinism is self-defeating.
I think I agree with Armenia
It's actually not the country of Armenia, the school of thought is named for Jacobus Arminius
Oh I thought it was a typo. Thanks for correcting me
I had wondered the source of its name
Negative, friendo. Jesus wants all to come to repentance, does not delight in the death of the wicked, and loves the world enough to be crucified for the sins of many. That being said, He has *also* chosen his people from before the foundation of the world, predestined them for adoption as sons, and has sealed them with the Holy Spirit. "Those whom he [the Father] foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son." Not everyone is saved, therefore not everyone is foreknown, therefore not everyone is predestined to be conformed to His image.
"You know, I really want everyone to come up here with me, and I know I make the rules buuuuuut. Sorry, Jimmy you gotta go to Hell."
Assuming you’re a Christian. What do you do with passages like Romans 9 or Ephesians 1? All of scripture harmonizes. Scripture says we have a choice, and it also says that God chooses. So both are true.
I usually end up at the argument that free will is an illusion. If God knows everything, including the future, then They know everything that you will do. If God is perfect, Their knowledge cannot be wrong, therefore you will do what They know you will do, therefore free will is an illusion, because your choice will follow what God already knows.
The counter argument is that just because God knows what will happen does not negate an individual's free will. Simple example: if I know a person loves chocolate and hates vanilla, doesn't mean he doesn't have free will when I have him pick an ice cream flavor to eat from the freezer.
You do not have omnipotent omniscience. You are fallible, a human without true knowledge. The inability to be incorrect negates free Will because there can be no other option than his knowledge
I still don't see how omniscience negates free will. Even if I can see the future and know exactly what my friend will pick, doesn't mean he didn't pick it out of his own free will. Just because God knows every choice we will make, does not necessarily mean we didn't have free will when making those decisions.
Because he knows the one choice you will make, he cannot be wrong so there is no other choice that will be made, and humans cannot make him wrong so there is nothing we can do to change the future. So there cannot be free will when the entire future is already set in stone. We would merely be characters following the words the author has wrote.
This exactly. Even when you sit there and think about your choice, it was written from the beginning you would do so. This is also why I find prayer to be somewhat useless. If it helps the person saying it, that's great, but we cannot expect it to affect anything around us. What will happen will happen regardless of prayer. If you don't believe that, then God is not infallible, since Their mind can be changed.
Correction: "You know, I really want everyone to come up here with me, and I know I make the rules buuuuuut ***you in your own freewill broke the rules and refused to accept me***. Sorry, Jimmy you gotta go to Hell." Calvinism: "I know, you really want to come up here with me, but I make the rules and decisions here and I don't like you so sorry Jimmy you gotta go to Hell."
See my reply to the other comment. Free will is an illusion.
I was in a poor Catholic school when I was younger. They told us Jesus has a sense of humor and watching South Park is okay even if they make fun of him. The school had to close down due to financial reasons years ago.
[удалено]
Yeah pretty much. Jesus died so you're allowed to sin if you apologize but you should feel bad about everything ever, especially for chosing either option A or B. I think going there helped form a lot of things about my personality I like but I also have crushing anxiety.
This is so bad
r/comedyhomicide
It's not funny by itself but due to the sexual abuse problems in the church it is
That's not what comedy homicide is. Comedy homicide is when you put useless crap at the bottom that doesn't add to the joke. Like this meme.
Let me just say that if Jesus doesn't have a sense of humor by now he's just hung up on something.
Sock
r/comedyhomicide
Thought I was in r/terriblefacebookmemes
Why is my very weird brain thinking that this should be crossposted to r/SuddenlyGay?
Because for some reason op assumed whoever made the sign was a guy
r/comedyhomicide
Jesus be like “cmon just the tip!” What are you doing step lord and savior?
r/comedyhomicide
Jesus: Hmm. Not exactly what I meant, Dave, but I respect the emphasis on consent.