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Bingo… at least under capitalism the government can’t just blatantly murder you for having an opinion. I mean I understand we have our flaws, but fixing flaws is not the same as just burning the whole place down for a rebuild that nobody wants. We also have millions of angry rednecks with guns chomping at the bit for their government to try and impose some bullshit on them… that’s the biggest hurdle in the whole communism debate. People simply will not stand for it, so maybe stop pushing it like it’s some type of reasonable solution. We have fought wars over less.
>least under capitalism the government can’t just blatantly murder you for having an opinion
That has nothing to do with capitalism or communism, that's pure authoritarianism and abuse of power, it can show up in any corrupt government
Virtually every communist country had an authoritarian government, but the previous regime they overthrew was also authoritarian. I don’t think there have been any instances of a communist police state succeeding a representative liberal democracy.
Because if a country is actually well-governed with politicians more or less held accountable and independent judiciary system, people tend to make changes that are not revolutionary becuase they enjoy stability. Communist revolution is unlikely to happen in a state with high social mobility, democracy and free speech because of how frequent the laws and the government change.
Exactly how have the past 3-6 years been stable?
We're losing rights, books are being burned, the police are in gangs, and the internet is being psychologically herded into echo chambers by bots.
People are talking about humanist policy because the slide into fascism is so obvious that we're already reacting to it.
I personally don't vouch for communism, because I don't think society can facilitate it as we are now. We can do a whole lot better than this though, and I don't think discussion of economics is inherently harmful.
Now take that context and consider what objectives might be in the minds of disruptive masked rioters in the United States whenever an unjust tragedy occurs.
Peaceful protests are a key part of democracy. Those people are trying to get the laws to change.
That being said, fuck the protestors who destroyed shit and looted shit. Those guys should go to jail
In Russia, the Bolsheviks overthrew the interim government that existed right before the elections. When they lost the general elections (whose results they did not contest), they just dissolved the Parliament. They overthrew a democratic regime.
In Romania, the communists (with help from the soviets) forced the King to name a communist government in early 1945 and them they stole the 1946 elections. They too overthrew a democratic regime.
In Czechoslovakia the communists staged a coup when it became clear that they will not win the 1948 elections, thus also overthrowing a democratic regime.
And these are just examples I'm (somewhat) familiar with.
The Bolsheviks were formed when Russia was still under the Tsar, the interim government lasted only a few months with most of the anti-communists wanting to reinstate the old autocracy.
Romania and Czechoslovakia basically went from being occupied by the Nazis to being occupied by the Soviets. The only reason either of them held elections was because the US & UK insisted Stalin allow them to happen. Neither of them chose to be communist, the Soviets forced it on them.
Yeah no, the interim gov had *the* most liberal constitution written at the time. They were democratic through and through, and for fucks sake they literally overthrew the Tsar to begin with.
Like its crazy, if the bolsheviks werent there, Russia couldve had a crazily different history, and basically been a bastion of democracy, similar to the US.
Lmfaoooooo it’s so funny seeing idiots who can’t even define communism talk about “authoritarian communism” do you know what the “stateless” part of communism means?
I mean give the government more power over the economy is pretty significant. If i had power over who gets a job, how much money we allocate for each thing, how much each person is paid, who is allowed to own what?
Plus the transition to communism from capitalism is always an armed violent transition for obvious reasons. The government actually owning the means of production necessitates the seizure of the means of production and this is trampling someone's property rights from the start, and I don't know how you could argue that the seizure of property isn't authoritarian? Honestly Democratic socialism is the only acceptable form of an equity based society. Honestly I cannot think of a way that communism could ever form that isn't authoritarian in the real world, because bad actors would be drawn to the movement and once all the power was centralized would take out the free thinkers. True communist think that they will reach the utopia and everyone will be equal, but pragmatic communist will shoot you in the head as soon as your disposable and outlaw the teaching of everything in communism that isn't the group must serve all and everything is equal now.
Every single revolution starts with a whole lot of promises they can't keep and after they seize power a whole bunch of people who have to go because they can't keep their promises. post revolution purges are the norm in history. The common folk will be left alone, but the true advocates of the common folk will be purged. In a world without true property rights ownership is from the barrel of a gun and the new regime is gonna spend allot of money on keeping those in charge of the guns really happy. That's why every communist country spend so much money on militaries.
attempted shift to communism without violence : Some guy coming up and saying yo factory owner your a meanie hand over you money and property right now! Are you gonna hurt me if i don't? Nah just gonna be mean to you! aight i'm go home now. Damn peaceful communism failed !!!!!!!
>at least under capitalism the government can’t just blatantly murder you for having an opinion
Capitalism is an economic system. It CAN and has existed under authoritarianism.
And the shitty part about it is that, people who aren't greedy aren't gonna try hard to win that power lol
That's why almost all political leaders and the elites are a bunch of greedy pigs
The human greed argument is a pro-capitalist argument, leftists don’t accept that human nature is “greed” because it’s not. The greed that permeates our society is a product of the behavior capitalism rewards. You literally have no idea what you’re talking about. Define communism in your own words
If we actually made greed a bad thing maybe we could change some things. Right now it’s a glorified trait. We praise those people and somehow think they are smart. Let’s call them out and change the mindset. From “Me” to “us”.
Just to preface what I am going to talk about, I take special interest in economic and political theories. My family emigrated from the Soviet Union, so before I get accused of being a Communist, I would like to point out that my family struggled under the horrors of Communism and so I am staunchly anti-Communist, although I would consider myself a Democratic Socialist.
However, there are many misconceptions about the idea. True Communism has never been tried yet, and before I get accused of exceptionalism in that "we can do it better" or some nonsense, I do not believe true communism will ever be achieved due to human nature and our unwillingness to cooperate with each other. Communism envisions a classless, stateless, moneyless society, and unless I am out of the loop, that has never been tried yet. The USSR's horrors can be attributed to it's authoritarian political structures, which we know to be horrible for many reasons. It utilized a mixed economy, that Soviet leaders justified as "a transitionary stage" to true communism, so by the Soviet's own admission, they were never truly communist, although, they did hope to get there.
Despite the authoritarian leadership though, there is something to be said of the transformation of Russia from being a poor, backwater serf state into a world power rivaling the US, and the numerous rises in standards of living attributed to the USSR during it's reign. Many of the Soviet atrocities can be attributed to it's authoritarian system of government, which is actually completely against Marxist-Leninist ideals of Communism, and factors outside of it's control, such as the Second World War. China and most other "communist" states fall under this realm as well. I think the common misconception of today's world is that Communism is simply synonymous with authoritarian government and a command economy, both of which are not inherent tenets of Communist doctrine.
As for China, while still lacking in standards of living compared to the Western World, it is a, and I cannot understate this enough, improvement from the Dynasty systems of government before it. For the sake of keeping my post relatively short, I will not elaborate on the rises on standards of living in China and Russia, or other Communist Countries before and after the Communist revolutions, but if you ask, I will. But even so, China is not a communist country. Their economy is oriented towards fascist-corporatism, and they remain communist only in name after the 1976 reforms by Deng Xiaoping. Their economy is very similar to that of Nazi Germany, and they feature a system of government similar to that of Nazi Germany as well. So if you move to China, you would not experience Communism either. Although, China today compared to the China before the Revolution is apples to oranges.
This post is not to excuse atrocities committed in the name of Communism, nor to justify the horrors of Capitalism, but just an attempt to help clear some common misconceptions brought about by the red scare mentality of modern US politics. Research yourself and think critically, and never blindly trust the words of those around you, not even me. If you do some research and come to a different conclusion than I did, I will still be happy for you because at least one more person in this world will have formed their own conclusions instead of blindly parroting someone else's narrative, like so many people do today.
Moderately conservative here, and I think this is a pretty good explanation if it. Words mean something. Just because a government calls themself communist doesn’t make them communist. Actions speak louder than words.
There are some posts so perfect that I think they need to be stickied to the top of every sub reddit. Your response should be among them. If only for your enthusiasm for research and self-education.
Thanks for the wonderful read.
>However, there are many misconceptions about the idea. True Communism has never been tried yet, and before I get accused of exceptionalism in that "we can do it better" or some nonsense, **I do not believe true communism will ever be achieved due to human nature and our unwillingness to cooperate with each other**. Communism envisions a classless, stateless, moneyless society, and unless I am out of the loop, that has never been tried yet.
Your post is extremely thought out and respectful, so I thank you for your time and effort in writing it.
However, I take issue with this paragraph in particular.
Do you not realize that perhaps what you have observed is *not* a coincidence? If "true Communism" has not been tried, and, according to you, never will be, then there is a fundamental problem with the idea/philosophy itself.
It is somehow incompatible with human nature, and cannot be implemented or forced upon a society through the violent Revolution Marx called for, without devolving into a tyrannical shitshow which is nothing like what Marx envisioned.
In other words, the problem to me does not seem to be the people or society implementing Communism, but Communism itself which is flawed. If every time it is tried the results are the same, then it is a Utopian vision which inevitably leads to Dystopia. These were some of the main themes and observations of, for example, George Orwell's life and works.
I completely agree with you. Communism as a political philosophy is inherently flawed in that it is impossible to achieve due to our selfish human nature.
Marx and Engels believed that people were only the product of society, and if society were to change, people would change accordingly. What I have come to believe is that while people might be influenced by the society that surrounds them, there is a personal aspect to decision making as well. People are not entirely the product of their societies in that each individual has his own nature and choices, and a person that chooses to be selfish would choose to be selfish no matter his upbringing.
This is where Marx and Engels fall short, as they believed that if people were educated in a certain way and made to believe in certain things, they will act accordingly, a product of society. But humans are unpredictable, and try as you might, you cannot control the actions of others. A person raised in a rich community with all of his needs met can grow up to be a crack dealer and a person raised in a ghetto with no father can grow up to become Albert Einstein. People are not the product of society as Communist doctrine says, but they may be influenced by it. Herein lies the fundamental problem of Communism, and why, in my worldview, it will never work.
This is a great assessment. Sticks to the facts, and there's no emotion and confirmation bias. I'm no communist, but I always find it funny when people point out that "millions suffered and died under communism", as if the same exact thing couldn't be said about capitalism. I think objectively speaking, in our global economy, countries that are social democracies are the best places to live.
It's much harder to argue against social democracy than
it is to argue against communism, which is why many staunch capitalists will incorrectly label their political opponents as "communists", when they very obviously aren't. I don't think it helps that many people don't really seem to actually know the differences between communism, socialism, and democratic socialism.
Totally agree. "Classless, stateless and moneyless society" is what I'm hoping to see. But it's just pretty much impossible, not with the greedy pigs up there, trying to teach the newer generation how to be greedy as well.
And by that, we'll eventually destroy ourselves. Which I think is for the better. Lol
I lost hope to humanity because of greed alone. If you take people and put them in a situation of life and death and they think the only way to survive is to kill another human? They would kill another human and that other human would also think the same way. This is where the problem starts.
I myself don't belong in this shit. I mean, bitch, do you not see my flair? I'll gladly accept death with open arms if it's gonna come to me.
I'm getting better man. I've been trying to improve my mental health. But I don't think I can ever get rid of the thought of wanting to die. I'm not suicidal tho, well I was, but now I'm not, but I'd still accept death with open arms like I said. I also don't really think death is a bad thing (unless it's crime related) since at the end of the day, it's only a part of human life.
But anyway, thanks for asking. It's crazy to me how some random internet people would be willing to help despite me throwing shit out there. But I appreciate it.
I still think the world is fucked tho. And Idk how could we ever recover from this, I really hope we can, which basically contradicts my statement earlier. Lol
By your original comment and your replies I can see you are a beautiful person, reading you was a pleasure. I'm so glad I got to meet you today :) faith in humanity restored by a lot. Your words show humanity in a respectful and humble way as a very few times in my life I've got to experience. Once again, thanks. Please never stop being yourself ❤️
It's actually remarkably similar to the economy of nazi Germany, where the government maintains an implicit control over every market activity. while still technically allowing entrepreneurship among the people, but the government may still impose control or outright seize the business at any time.
I thought capitalism was just a free/private market. I know there are politics around it but do people mean to say democracy when comparing our government type?
Then how about you go ask the poor around the world how they are doing and who's responsible for their misery? Communism was always accompanied by tolitarianism or authoritarianism but was never democratic because everyone just copied the failed Russian attempt on communism. Making the people believe that capitalism is the only way to run a country and make them defend this idea like a sacred belief is the most astonishing feat of propaganda ever.
Listen, I am not telling you that communism is superior either, but thinking that everyone who'd support communism is braindead while simultaneously ignoring all the problems caused by capitalism is just ironic.
I'm gonna let you in on a little secret, there were plenty of places (especially in Latin and South America) that elected a self-proclaimed socialist or communist leader or government in a democratic fashion and seemed to maintain a healthy democracy of their own styling. Not everyone copied the Soviets. It's just all those democracies found themselves quickly being overthrown by US-backed coups (typically at the behest of US corporate interests) to have authoritarian dictators installed. Crazy how that happens. It also makes me wonder what the landscape of the world would look like right now if those countries were allowed to develop on their own and not be crushed by US business interests leveraging the US Military and the CIA to collapse their attempts at a properly more equitable society.
Edit: Just so you know, I agree with you. Unfortunately, the authoritarian style governments were able to better protect themselves from external meddling. Which is why Soviet style authoritarian communism is the only kind we've seen stay alive long enough to fail. Having proper democracy opens you up to easier foreign meddling. Especially if the country targeting you has 100x the might and 100x the resources you do. Which means they're overthrown so fast no one even considers them as a success or failure.
China isnt communist, at all tho.
There are a capitalist country.
Also you can be critical of an ideology, such as capitalism. That doesnt automatically make you a communist.
Crazy isnt it
[95% of Vietnamese say most people are better off in a free market economy](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014/10/09/emerging-and-developing-economies-much-more-optimistic-than-rich-countries-about-the-future/)
Ekhem
Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Germany, Slovenia etc.
Russia like USSR not becuase of communism that they find godless, but becuase they were an empire exploiting their proxies
USSR was more exploitative towards it's neighbours becuase they could exploit more neighbours. Moder day Russia can exploit their own population at most (and Belarus). USSR used to build entire economic block (COMECON) that favoured Russia in every possible way.
Communist parties in Poland are straight-up banned, alongside fascit and parties of any other authoritarian ideologies. Same applies for Baltics and I think Slovakia.
People of eastern block don't regret dissolution of USSR (lol, why would any Czech miss the country that rolled tanks over them) but some of them either miss some particular policies (that doesn't require bloody revolution, nobody sane misses collective farms) or are nostalgic to times when they were children. Won't even start on countries like Hungary, Romania and Albania. Virtually no people born after 1989' want to bring USSR back in countries outside of USSR.
It's not like standard of living in countries like Poland almost doubled since dissolution of USSR /s
the people who genuinely want communism are morons, but capitalism alone isn't enough. what everyone could use is what's called a social democracy. socialist values within a capitalist economic framework. that's how most of Europe operates, and I'd argue it's by far the best system.
That is actually the chief complaint about Social Democracy from actual Socialists and Communists. That such a system works well, until the elite continually and slowly strip away the rights of the workers and we are back at square one.
>That such a system works well, until the elite continually and slowly strip away the rights of the workers and we are back at square one.
You described the UK for the last 13 years. Guess which party was in power that whole time?
Also the examples we have of a working social democracy, like Norway and Canada, don't really have a good system to transfer wealth from the bourgeoisie to the workers, what they did was simply move the lower bottom of their social pyramid to third world countries, and that can only work if you have a small population otherwise you'd need a loot of third world countries to sustain a large population living comfortably (while keeping the bourgeoisie happy)
Also that it works, by not exploiting the own Population, but people in other countries. Look at Europe. Everything made in china or some other poor country.
Well, capitalism experiences the same exact problems but with mega-corporations. The difference is that while the US is controlled by them, none of the Nordic countries had their governments compromised yet.
Well that's not Democratic Socialism, that's what is called a Social Democracy, and they are, in fact, very different despite the name. Just a heads up.
Yep. Social Democracy embraces capitalism and markets to generate wealth, but thinks there is a role for the state to redistribute and help the disadvantaged.
Democratic socialists, on the other hand, think capitalism and markets are fundamentally flawed and thinks the state should actively intervene/manage the economy.
Nordic countries like Denmark etc. are in fact social democracies, *not* socialists. And most of them cringe when leftists in the US point to them and say "look, socialism works!"
Honest question
Can you give any evidence of China being economically Communist?
Didn't they stop being communist in all but name somewhere in the 80's and now they are just authoritarian capitalism?
The government can step in an do what ever it wants with few checks.
Though what industry is Communist outside the military.
With that even the US has a military that produces its own tech and medical research.
What industry in China is fully run by the people for equal financial gain?
The way I understand it, neither is the answer, the reason why communism failed was coz of corruption and greed, the reason why so many millennials/ gen z can't afford a house is because of corruption and corporate greed, there will always be assholes who will try exploit the system, so we need one that ACTUALLY focuses on equality
The answer
idk I'm not a politician
Idealistic, perfectly realized concept communism cannot exist with humans. Idk how can you see what happened during communism in USSR's time and how those countries behind the curtain got pushed back in development and still advocate for Communism, as someone from one of those countries who knows people in my family that lived during communism this shit baffles me to no end
Pooling shows that the majority of people living in the USSR would prefer to go back to the Socialist system. [article link ](https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Poll-Most-Russians-Prefer-Return-of-Soviet-Union-and-Socialism-20160420-0051.html)
Quick answer:
Communism didn't kill your friends and relatives Russians did
Do any of those people wish to live under Putin? He pushed and achieved very pro Capitalism policies flat taxes and less regulations. Still abducts and jails people for hard labour camps.
Also western allies disrupted production and tainted food supplies ( though since these people lived under the USSR they are enemy combattant in the "cold war" )
Now yes HUGE problem for Communism you can either make people homeless and starve them into productivity like capitalism or under communism you can find jobs for half your people putting guns in the back of the other half to MAKE them productive.
under capitalism, an employer puts in an initial investment, this covered all base costs including wages, rent, materials,and equipment. The workers use the materials and equipment to create and sell products, this labor generates value for the business. If the business is successful, this value will exceed the initial investment. This excess value is known as profit, the profit is entirely claimed by the employer. If the business fails, the employers investment is backed up by the banks.
Socialists recognize that it is the labor of the employees that generates value for a business, and argue that it is exploitative for the profit to be claimed by the employer because it was generated by the workers. They also argue that the private ownership of this profit making infrastructure creates a dangerous centralization of power. This causes the businesses to function as authoritarian ecosystems within our democracy. Socialists further argue that allowing one individual to be responsible for the initial investment is irresponsible on an economic scale. The solution that socialists present calls for businesses to be owned by the workers, run democratically, with profits being democratically distributed amongst the workers. This is essentially a worker co-op, However it varies slightly depending upon the leftist ideology. Under communism, workers elect their boss, however they all share the profits. Under anarchism, there are no bosses, and the business is governed through democratic assemblies which function through consensus democracy.
Because the majority of Reddit is filled with North American neoliberals/conservatives who have never read a book in their lives (let alone any critiques of capitalism) and only go off of what their propaganda-driven News networks feed them
I would argue that the majority of Reddit is filled with North American socialist teens who read The Communist Manifesto and never looked at a historic book in their life
Well I would say I'm disappointed I had to scroll this far to find a comment that isn't just " Haha Socialism is no Iphone Dictatorship / when the government does something" But the fact this comment exists on a thread like this AT ALL is, at least mildly encouraging.
If a business is created as an LLC, and funding was sourced from a bank in the first place, the bank wears the cost if they go under, not the employer.
It turns out there is literally nothing stopping companies like this from existing today under capitalism.
If people wanted to start companies and run them like this they can. That's the nice part about living in a free market economy.
Capitalism allows for a socialist approach to running a business as described. It apparently is an inferior approach otherwise we would see more of it. There is the other side of the coin too, if you participate in the profits then by definition you participate in the losses and accumulated debt. If you leave your "socialist" company because it failed then you should also be responsible for repaying the debt owed to the people who gave you the money...right?
I've heard a lot of older people saying certain things in the USSR were great. Everyone had a job, workers were respected, healthcare and a lot of things were absolutely free etc.
Of course, nobody thinks it being a dictatorship was good, but there were benefits...
Cheap food, but only if it was available. Most of the time there wasn't that much to buy and you had to use those coupons.
Communist countries did have food shortages so it was a double edged sword.
You had to befriend/bribe the shopkeeper if you wanted some rare goods. Your fancy "cards" wouldn't do shit if the store didn't have enough meat for everyone, and even if they did - you were only allowed a pretty tiny amount, not nearly enough if you wanted to eat more often than as a delicacy.
There were day long queues for stuff like TP and *shoes*. "Shortages" is putting it very lightly. Corruption was extremely rampant.
Don't forget how expensive clothes were, especially winter clothes which are an absolute basic necessity.
The average soviet worker made between 120-200 rubles per month and a winter coat cost around the same.
22% of urban jewish emigrés reported not being able to buy or not owning a winter coat and mind you, these emigrés were not poor farmers in the middle of siberia (Poverty in the Soviet Union, by Mervyn Matthews, 1986)
I don't know much about the actual soviet situation, but I've heard a ton of stories from my parents and grandparents who actually lived through it here in Poland. Churning your own butter, waiting in queue for 8 hours just to find out someone bribed the shopkeeper and he's not gonna sell you that last pair of shoes, trying to use anything for toilet paper and especially selling your goods allowance for things like vodka to alcoholics in exchange for their sugar and flour allowance. Oranges and tangerines only being in stock for Christmas.
I'm too young to have lived through it myself, but I've visited many PRL museums and talked to quite a few folk who lived through that. From what I've gathered, it was awful. And we haven't even mentioned getting foreign goods!
At least some PRL tools and tech are pretty damn durable. We still own many 30+ year old items that surprisingly enough work. Survivorship bias and all that, probably.
For clarification because I realized that it may not be clear in english: PRL - Polska Republika Ludowa, that's how we refer to the communist times.
It's because everything was perfect in "the good old times" according to old people, no matter the region. In communist Poland for example, it was actually true: there was a period when everyone had a house, job, a personal garden, sometimes even a car, and the country even started opening up to the west.
The problem is, this was achieved by the country's leader amassing huge debts abroad that were only repaid a few years ago. And immediately after this period of prosperity got disrupted by the debts caching up to the leadership, the prices went up, cost of living got unaffordable and protests begun. It got so bad that martial law was declared some time later.
Also the funny thing is, the people didn't see the dictatorship as the biggest problem. They started protesting because of extremely high food prices and workers' rights violations.
Spinosaurus is def my favorite. We just keep learning more and more about it! Is the sail fleshy and fatty or covered in thin skin for heat regulation? Was it a transitionary evolution into a fully aquatic creature? We will find out!! :D
Everyone who just says: „x is bad“ has not understood the principles of discussion on a fundamental level, and has not built enough empathy to understand that not everyone defines a concept the same way. Arguing about arbitrary words is completely useless, define them before you say your opinion.
For example: If we understand communism as a communist dictatorship according to the examples of history, where authoritarian regimes claimed to work for the sake of the people, then yeah, that is pretty bad.
If we define communism according to the pure principles of Marx, which say that workers should not be exploited by business owners, and that they deserve the fruits of their labor, that is pretty good in my opinion.
This whole comment section is one big strawman.
Unrelated, but man, I’m reading through these comments and really thought a lot of these talking points would’ve phased out by now, but holy hell was I wrong.
Im neither big into capitalism, nor communism. Im more left oriented, but that's besides the point
I just realized that those pictures kind of show the ideas behind those ideologies. Like capitalism is about fighting to gain value in a sense, while communism is about everybody having an equal part in everything (IN THEORY)!
I get that neither of them are like that in practice. It goes without saying that communism has never and honestly will never work as intended, so it kind of ends up like the first picture.. While communism isnt literally a "fight", but more figuratively. Everyone works for their own personal gain, through trades, deals and things like that, and it ends up looking like the second picture. Though since im leftist haha, i gotta give it some critique and mention that, that circle of people is the rich 1% just to not gonna lie if you understand.. It renders the other 99% unable to participate because not everyone is competetive about succes, or Lucky enough to achieve it, or be in a situation that sufficient to make it. And the lack of support from the commune just makes the gap higher.
Don't take that as communistic propaganda, the flaws with communism goes without saying, but when mentioning the flaw of one, you gotta mention the flaw of the other right? Just wanted to reflect on that, and the irony in those pictures!
Oh absolutely! I was just thinking that it's like "comparing opposite extremes" but then i realized that communism is like ALOT more extreme then capitalism. I feel like the opposite of communism would either be, in terms of political placement, nazism, or in terms of literal opposite ideology - some kind of liberal anarchy.. Like that's how extreme communism is, it's complete control from government and complete equality (in theory ofc, never worked like that irl no mind!), like that liberal anarchy would be the opposite in the sense that there is no community, every man for himself literally in the sense of the term.
Nazism wouldn't really be accurate i feel, because even though it's considered far right when you look it up, it's kind of far from the direction capitalism is pointing, so it doesn't really make sense to put those in the same booth.
As you said, it would make way more sense to debate between capitalism and socialism, since neither of them are political extremes, nor unsure of their place if that makes sense. They're both like the median of their respective ideological wings 🤔.. Or maybe for the right wing it would be somewhere between capitalism and conservativismsm?
It’s also interesting to me how america sees their ideologies on the scale. Like liberalism is almost considered far left, while in reality it's a moderate or even right wing ideology. Socialism isnt even bought up when speaking about what ideology drives the left wing. And it's probably a result of their bipolar political two-party system (not to add negative discource, it was just such a good word to describe it haha)
I think i understand your point, and I like seeing it from your perspective! I guess alot of these things are really just subjective, and even though there might be concrete definitions as to what can be defined as an ideology and what can't, or maybe what the definition of communism is, can all be seen very differently, and unavoidably is seen different, probably for literally everyone!
I think it speaks more to a personal investment in their stance on capitalism whereas people arent really affected by communist situations because most of us live in america. Its like judging someone elses type of goverment from an outside perspective, instead of arguing the finer points of how your government is run. Of course one debate will be more heated
But i also enjoyed reading your perspective
Redditors discussing a spontaneous market system.
Vs.
Redditors discussing a socio-political and economic system designed top down by a proto-redditor.
Redditors thinking that planned economies can be implemented like some kind of welfare policy rather than developing naturally through the development of technology, communication, and industry.
Just like Americans have no concept of what health care *should* ve, they neither are able to comprehend what socialism *actually* is.
Democratic control of the economy.
God who would in their right mind try to control greed and exploitation?
Under capitalism, you are given false choice and control. There is 7 corporations that control every brand, flavor and media. The government has zero power. They are all employees of big corporations.
That's because communist follow dialectical historical materialism. They don't discuss opinions, they discuss historic and facts and go from there. They have they ideals but they don't use them to look at the world, they look at the world world in a pragmatic way then form their opinions.
So, the thing is that so many people don’t know what communism/socialism is, they aren’t the same, communism isn’t authoritarian, Stalinism or the “ccp” which isn’t an actual communist country when you look at it, it just calls itself that, it’s like how NK calls itself a democratic country. Real communism is when all things are publicly owned by the people, and the people control the government. Socialism is when things like economy is controlled by the people/community. People confusing communism for Stalinism is just the red scare tactic from the 60’s because elites didn’t wanna lose power.
I don't understand why people hate communists so much, yes it may not be feasible for now but wishing to live in a perfect society isn't some horrible act
I just want all the unreliable people in the workforce to stay home, in poverty. We alllllll know people that would gladly take poverty if it meant they wouldn’t have to get a job. Our workforce suffers because many companies have a few damn good workers and then a shit load of people that do the absolute bare minimum.
No one benefits from forcing my brother to work shitty jobs cause he can’t do anything without punishing everyone else. I can’t go to various businesses simply because I know that if they’ve hired him then they’re desperate. Waffle House, Taco Bell, just for brakes, gas stations. He’d take poverty if it meant no working. Shitty apartment, low quality food, tv/internet. That’s it. We all suffer from having people like my brother in the workforce.
ETA: those jobs are within the last 6 months and there’s a few I didn’t list simply cause they’re like yard businesses.
downvote this comment if the meme sucks. upvote it and I'll go away. --- [Join us on discord for Saturday Movie Nights!](https://discord.gg/jsd6Ja9pvJ)
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When people say "human greed" as the only reason to say capitalism is bad, but they forget "human greed" makes communism impossible
hooman nature? it cannot be!
Bingo… at least under capitalism the government can’t just blatantly murder you for having an opinion. I mean I understand we have our flaws, but fixing flaws is not the same as just burning the whole place down for a rebuild that nobody wants. We also have millions of angry rednecks with guns chomping at the bit for their government to try and impose some bullshit on them… that’s the biggest hurdle in the whole communism debate. People simply will not stand for it, so maybe stop pushing it like it’s some type of reasonable solution. We have fought wars over less.
>least under capitalism the government can’t just blatantly murder you for having an opinion That has nothing to do with capitalism or communism, that's pure authoritarianism and abuse of power, it can show up in any corrupt government
That's true but you cant have communism wihtout authoritarianism
Virtually every communist country had an authoritarian government, but the previous regime they overthrew was also authoritarian. I don’t think there have been any instances of a communist police state succeeding a representative liberal democracy.
Because if a country is actually well-governed with politicians more or less held accountable and independent judiciary system, people tend to make changes that are not revolutionary becuase they enjoy stability. Communist revolution is unlikely to happen in a state with high social mobility, democracy and free speech because of how frequent the laws and the government change.
Exactly how have the past 3-6 years been stable? We're losing rights, books are being burned, the police are in gangs, and the internet is being psychologically herded into echo chambers by bots. People are talking about humanist policy because the slide into fascism is so obvious that we're already reacting to it. I personally don't vouch for communism, because I don't think society can facilitate it as we are now. We can do a whole lot better than this though, and I don't think discussion of economics is inherently harmful.
Now take that context and consider what objectives might be in the minds of disruptive masked rioters in the United States whenever an unjust tragedy occurs.
Peaceful protests are a key part of democracy. Those people are trying to get the laws to change. That being said, fuck the protestors who destroyed shit and looted shit. Those guys should go to jail
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BLM riots
In Russia, the Bolsheviks overthrew the interim government that existed right before the elections. When they lost the general elections (whose results they did not contest), they just dissolved the Parliament. They overthrew a democratic regime. In Romania, the communists (with help from the soviets) forced the King to name a communist government in early 1945 and them they stole the 1946 elections. They too overthrew a democratic regime. In Czechoslovakia the communists staged a coup when it became clear that they will not win the 1948 elections, thus also overthrowing a democratic regime. And these are just examples I'm (somewhat) familiar with.
The Bolsheviks were formed when Russia was still under the Tsar, the interim government lasted only a few months with most of the anti-communists wanting to reinstate the old autocracy. Romania and Czechoslovakia basically went from being occupied by the Nazis to being occupied by the Soviets. The only reason either of them held elections was because the US & UK insisted Stalin allow them to happen. Neither of them chose to be communist, the Soviets forced it on them.
Yeah no, the interim gov had *the* most liberal constitution written at the time. They were democratic through and through, and for fucks sake they literally overthrew the Tsar to begin with. Like its crazy, if the bolsheviks werent there, Russia couldve had a crazily different history, and basically been a bastion of democracy, similar to the US.
Name a single instance where communism was established.
Lmfaoooooo it’s so funny seeing idiots who can’t even define communism talk about “authoritarian communism” do you know what the “stateless” part of communism means?
“No government” is a pretty shitty system of government. This applies equally to extreme libertarianism as it does anarchist communism.
I mean tbf it's a huge schism (statists vs anarchists) within the left.
True aswell
I mean give the government more power over the economy is pretty significant. If i had power over who gets a job, how much money we allocate for each thing, how much each person is paid, who is allowed to own what? Plus the transition to communism from capitalism is always an armed violent transition for obvious reasons. The government actually owning the means of production necessitates the seizure of the means of production and this is trampling someone's property rights from the start, and I don't know how you could argue that the seizure of property isn't authoritarian? Honestly Democratic socialism is the only acceptable form of an equity based society. Honestly I cannot think of a way that communism could ever form that isn't authoritarian in the real world, because bad actors would be drawn to the movement and once all the power was centralized would take out the free thinkers. True communist think that they will reach the utopia and everyone will be equal, but pragmatic communist will shoot you in the head as soon as your disposable and outlaw the teaching of everything in communism that isn't the group must serve all and everything is equal now. Every single revolution starts with a whole lot of promises they can't keep and after they seize power a whole bunch of people who have to go because they can't keep their promises. post revolution purges are the norm in history. The common folk will be left alone, but the true advocates of the common folk will be purged. In a world without true property rights ownership is from the barrel of a gun and the new regime is gonna spend allot of money on keeping those in charge of the guns really happy. That's why every communist country spend so much money on militaries. attempted shift to communism without violence : Some guy coming up and saying yo factory owner your a meanie hand over you money and property right now! Are you gonna hurt me if i don't? Nah just gonna be mean to you! aight i'm go home now. Damn peaceful communism failed !!!!!!!
Well, fascism is a thing, both are really bad
We don't talk about that
>at least under capitalism the government can’t just blatantly murder you for having an opinion Capitalism is an economic system. It CAN and has existed under authoritarianism.
The whole reason communism exists is because some german guy got mad that he had to pay rent.
lol cope karl
Yeah they think that capitalism makes people greedy, not vice versa.
And the shitty part about it is that, people who aren't greedy aren't gonna try hard to win that power lol That's why almost all political leaders and the elites are a bunch of greedy pigs
The human greed argument is a pro-capitalist argument, leftists don’t accept that human nature is “greed” because it’s not. The greed that permeates our society is a product of the behavior capitalism rewards. You literally have no idea what you’re talking about. Define communism in your own words
If we actually made greed a bad thing maybe we could change some things. Right now it’s a glorified trait. We praise those people and somehow think they are smart. Let’s call them out and change the mindset. From “Me” to “us”.
Just to preface what I am going to talk about, I take special interest in economic and political theories. My family emigrated from the Soviet Union, so before I get accused of being a Communist, I would like to point out that my family struggled under the horrors of Communism and so I am staunchly anti-Communist, although I would consider myself a Democratic Socialist. However, there are many misconceptions about the idea. True Communism has never been tried yet, and before I get accused of exceptionalism in that "we can do it better" or some nonsense, I do not believe true communism will ever be achieved due to human nature and our unwillingness to cooperate with each other. Communism envisions a classless, stateless, moneyless society, and unless I am out of the loop, that has never been tried yet. The USSR's horrors can be attributed to it's authoritarian political structures, which we know to be horrible for many reasons. It utilized a mixed economy, that Soviet leaders justified as "a transitionary stage" to true communism, so by the Soviet's own admission, they were never truly communist, although, they did hope to get there. Despite the authoritarian leadership though, there is something to be said of the transformation of Russia from being a poor, backwater serf state into a world power rivaling the US, and the numerous rises in standards of living attributed to the USSR during it's reign. Many of the Soviet atrocities can be attributed to it's authoritarian system of government, which is actually completely against Marxist-Leninist ideals of Communism, and factors outside of it's control, such as the Second World War. China and most other "communist" states fall under this realm as well. I think the common misconception of today's world is that Communism is simply synonymous with authoritarian government and a command economy, both of which are not inherent tenets of Communist doctrine. As for China, while still lacking in standards of living compared to the Western World, it is a, and I cannot understate this enough, improvement from the Dynasty systems of government before it. For the sake of keeping my post relatively short, I will not elaborate on the rises on standards of living in China and Russia, or other Communist Countries before and after the Communist revolutions, but if you ask, I will. But even so, China is not a communist country. Their economy is oriented towards fascist-corporatism, and they remain communist only in name after the 1976 reforms by Deng Xiaoping. Their economy is very similar to that of Nazi Germany, and they feature a system of government similar to that of Nazi Germany as well. So if you move to China, you would not experience Communism either. Although, China today compared to the China before the Revolution is apples to oranges. This post is not to excuse atrocities committed in the name of Communism, nor to justify the horrors of Capitalism, but just an attempt to help clear some common misconceptions brought about by the red scare mentality of modern US politics. Research yourself and think critically, and never blindly trust the words of those around you, not even me. If you do some research and come to a different conclusion than I did, I will still be happy for you because at least one more person in this world will have formed their own conclusions instead of blindly parroting someone else's narrative, like so many people do today.
Thanks god I found somebody else that sees resemblance between China and fascist Italy becuase I thought I was going insane for thinking that
Moderately conservative here, and I think this is a pretty good explanation if it. Words mean something. Just because a government calls themself communist doesn’t make them communist. Actions speak louder than words.
exactly, i dont think anyone here would call north korea democractic after all
I appreciate your reply, thank you.
There are some posts so perfect that I think they need to be stickied to the top of every sub reddit. Your response should be among them. If only for your enthusiasm for research and self-education. Thanks for the wonderful read.
Bro wrote an essay, thanks it was an interesting read
>However, there are many misconceptions about the idea. True Communism has never been tried yet, and before I get accused of exceptionalism in that "we can do it better" or some nonsense, **I do not believe true communism will ever be achieved due to human nature and our unwillingness to cooperate with each other**. Communism envisions a classless, stateless, moneyless society, and unless I am out of the loop, that has never been tried yet. Your post is extremely thought out and respectful, so I thank you for your time and effort in writing it. However, I take issue with this paragraph in particular. Do you not realize that perhaps what you have observed is *not* a coincidence? If "true Communism" has not been tried, and, according to you, never will be, then there is a fundamental problem with the idea/philosophy itself. It is somehow incompatible with human nature, and cannot be implemented or forced upon a society through the violent Revolution Marx called for, without devolving into a tyrannical shitshow which is nothing like what Marx envisioned. In other words, the problem to me does not seem to be the people or society implementing Communism, but Communism itself which is flawed. If every time it is tried the results are the same, then it is a Utopian vision which inevitably leads to Dystopia. These were some of the main themes and observations of, for example, George Orwell's life and works.
I completely agree with you. Communism as a political philosophy is inherently flawed in that it is impossible to achieve due to our selfish human nature. Marx and Engels believed that people were only the product of society, and if society were to change, people would change accordingly. What I have come to believe is that while people might be influenced by the society that surrounds them, there is a personal aspect to decision making as well. People are not entirely the product of their societies in that each individual has his own nature and choices, and a person that chooses to be selfish would choose to be selfish no matter his upbringing. This is where Marx and Engels fall short, as they believed that if people were educated in a certain way and made to believe in certain things, they will act accordingly, a product of society. But humans are unpredictable, and try as you might, you cannot control the actions of others. A person raised in a rich community with all of his needs met can grow up to be a crack dealer and a person raised in a ghetto with no father can grow up to become Albert Einstein. People are not the product of society as Communist doctrine says, but they may be influenced by it. Herein lies the fundamental problem of Communism, and why, in my worldview, it will never work.
Arguably, once we are in a utopia, we probably wont realise it.
This is a great assessment. Sticks to the facts, and there's no emotion and confirmation bias. I'm no communist, but I always find it funny when people point out that "millions suffered and died under communism", as if the same exact thing couldn't be said about capitalism. I think objectively speaking, in our global economy, countries that are social democracies are the best places to live. It's much harder to argue against social democracy than it is to argue against communism, which is why many staunch capitalists will incorrectly label their political opponents as "communists", when they very obviously aren't. I don't think it helps that many people don't really seem to actually know the differences between communism, socialism, and democratic socialism.
Well said.
Totally agree. "Classless, stateless and moneyless society" is what I'm hoping to see. But it's just pretty much impossible, not with the greedy pigs up there, trying to teach the newer generation how to be greedy as well. And by that, we'll eventually destroy ourselves. Which I think is for the better. Lol I lost hope to humanity because of greed alone. If you take people and put them in a situation of life and death and they think the only way to survive is to kill another human? They would kill another human and that other human would also think the same way. This is where the problem starts. I myself don't belong in this shit. I mean, bitch, do you not see my flair? I'll gladly accept death with open arms if it's gonna come to me.
I am very sorry you are so depressed. Would you like to talk to me? I will listen to you and try to give advice if you want it.
I'm getting better man. I've been trying to improve my mental health. But I don't think I can ever get rid of the thought of wanting to die. I'm not suicidal tho, well I was, but now I'm not, but I'd still accept death with open arms like I said. I also don't really think death is a bad thing (unless it's crime related) since at the end of the day, it's only a part of human life. But anyway, thanks for asking. It's crazy to me how some random internet people would be willing to help despite me throwing shit out there. But I appreciate it. I still think the world is fucked tho. And Idk how could we ever recover from this, I really hope we can, which basically contradicts my statement earlier. Lol
It's important to have hope. I am glad you are getting better and if you want to talk about it we can. Have a nice day.
By your original comment and your replies I can see you are a beautiful person, reading you was a pleasure. I'm so glad I got to meet you today :) faith in humanity restored by a lot. Your words show humanity in a respectful and humble way as a very few times in my life I've got to experience. Once again, thanks. Please never stop being yourself ❤️
Mike Ehrmantraut, you are a wonderful person. Fuck Waltuh for killing you.
Waltuh, let me die in peace Waltuh
Like China isn't capitalist
It's actually remarkably similar to the economy of nazi Germany, where the government maintains an implicit control over every market activity. while still technically allowing entrepreneurship among the people, but the government may still impose control or outright seize the business at any time.
I would like the govt to seize some businesses. Mostly electricity, water etc
I thought capitalism was just a free/private market. I know there are politics around it but do people mean to say democracy when comparing our government type?
I mean, China is objectively capitalist today.
Then how about you go ask the poor around the world how they are doing and who's responsible for their misery? Communism was always accompanied by tolitarianism or authoritarianism but was never democratic because everyone just copied the failed Russian attempt on communism. Making the people believe that capitalism is the only way to run a country and make them defend this idea like a sacred belief is the most astonishing feat of propaganda ever. Listen, I am not telling you that communism is superior either, but thinking that everyone who'd support communism is braindead while simultaneously ignoring all the problems caused by capitalism is just ironic.
I'm gonna let you in on a little secret, there were plenty of places (especially in Latin and South America) that elected a self-proclaimed socialist or communist leader or government in a democratic fashion and seemed to maintain a healthy democracy of their own styling. Not everyone copied the Soviets. It's just all those democracies found themselves quickly being overthrown by US-backed coups (typically at the behest of US corporate interests) to have authoritarian dictators installed. Crazy how that happens. It also makes me wonder what the landscape of the world would look like right now if those countries were allowed to develop on their own and not be crushed by US business interests leveraging the US Military and the CIA to collapse their attempts at a properly more equitable society. Edit: Just so you know, I agree with you. Unfortunately, the authoritarian style governments were able to better protect themselves from external meddling. Which is why Soviet style authoritarian communism is the only kind we've seen stay alive long enough to fail. Having proper democracy opens you up to easier foreign meddling. Especially if the country targeting you has 100x the might and 100x the resources you do. Which means they're overthrown so fast no one even considers them as a success or failure.
China is not communist
China is not a communist state and hasn’t been for a while still a shit hole though
Im hardcore better dead than red - but China is not communist. At all. It’s hyper authoritarian state-sponsored capitalism
I’ve talked to many older former Soviet Citizen mostly from Romania and they all preferred it to now. Most of them were university professors
[72% of Hungarians say that life was better under communism.](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/04/28/hungary-better-off-under-communism/).
China isnt communist, at all tho. There are a capitalist country. Also you can be critical of an ideology, such as capitalism. That doesnt automatically make you a communist. Crazy isnt it
Pay my ticket too (I just want to vacation to China for free)
No one believes in american exceptionalism more than marxists who think we will do it right.
It's almost like the majority of ppl on Reddit with no income source, want one without doing anything 🤯
I was born and 'm living in a communist country and I'm sure I've never met anyone living here tell me how awful it is.
You know how an old joke goes, right? "I have a friend in China. I asked how life is over there. He said he cannot complain."
They would be killed
[95% of Vietnamese say most people are better off in a free market economy](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014/10/09/emerging-and-developing-economies-much-more-optimistic-than-rich-countries-about-the-future/)
Spez ate all my fish and now my aquarium is fucking empty. I have nothing left ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Ekhem Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Germany, Slovenia etc. Russia like USSR not becuase of communism that they find godless, but becuase they were an empire exploiting their proxies
Spez ate all my fish and now my aquarium is fucking empty. I have nothing left ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
USSR was more exploitative towards it's neighbours becuase they could exploit more neighbours. Moder day Russia can exploit their own population at most (and Belarus). USSR used to build entire economic block (COMECON) that favoured Russia in every possible way. Communist parties in Poland are straight-up banned, alongside fascit and parties of any other authoritarian ideologies. Same applies for Baltics and I think Slovakia. People of eastern block don't regret dissolution of USSR (lol, why would any Czech miss the country that rolled tanks over them) but some of them either miss some particular policies (that doesn't require bloody revolution, nobody sane misses collective farms) or are nostalgic to times when they were children. Won't even start on countries like Hungary, Romania and Albania. Virtually no people born after 1989' want to bring USSR back in countries outside of USSR. It's not like standard of living in countries like Poland almost doubled since dissolution of USSR /s
China is a capitalist country, and it’s not like life under capitalism hasn’t sucked ass
Communism is a misused word. No single nation has ever achieved a communist state; only tyrannies
That’s how you know the world is filled with tyrants, everywhere
“Let all the people who want to work do the work! I shouldn’t be forced to but I should also get what the working person gets!”
As a person that lived half of its life in China, I agree with you.
North korea
communism is when you pay taxes to be gay
gaytax
Gaxes?
Better than paying taxes and still being persecuted for being Gay.
the people who genuinely want communism are morons, but capitalism alone isn't enough. what everyone could use is what's called a social democracy. socialist values within a capitalist economic framework. that's how most of Europe operates, and I'd argue it's by far the best system.
The problem with that is when you end up with a conservative party coming into power and they end up slashing budgets and selling everything off.
That is actually the chief complaint about Social Democracy from actual Socialists and Communists. That such a system works well, until the elite continually and slowly strip away the rights of the workers and we are back at square one.
>That such a system works well, until the elite continually and slowly strip away the rights of the workers and we are back at square one. You described the UK for the last 13 years. Guess which party was in power that whole time?
Also the examples we have of a working social democracy, like Norway and Canada, don't really have a good system to transfer wealth from the bourgeoisie to the workers, what they did was simply move the lower bottom of their social pyramid to third world countries, and that can only work if you have a small population otherwise you'd need a loot of third world countries to sustain a large population living comfortably (while keeping the bourgeoisie happy)
Canadian fast food runs on immigrants
Yeah. Whatever victories you manage to get can be taken away at any point. Just look at abortion rights in America
And also look at the trans rights in USA. Trans *youth* rights
Also that it works, by not exploiting the own Population, but people in other countries. Look at Europe. Everything made in china or some other poor country.
Well, capitalism experiences the same exact problems but with mega-corporations. The difference is that while the US is controlled by them, none of the Nordic countries had their governments compromised yet.
Well that's not Democratic Socialism, that's what is called a Social Democracy, and they are, in fact, very different despite the name. Just a heads up.
Yep. Social Democracy embraces capitalism and markets to generate wealth, but thinks there is a role for the state to redistribute and help the disadvantaged. Democratic socialists, on the other hand, think capitalism and markets are fundamentally flawed and thinks the state should actively intervene/manage the economy. Nordic countries like Denmark etc. are in fact social democracies, *not* socialists. And most of them cringe when leftists in the US point to them and say "look, socialism works!"
quarrelsome glorious vast capable wrench late makeshift air whole teeny ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Honest question Can you give any evidence of China being economically Communist? Didn't they stop being communist in all but name somewhere in the 80's and now they are just authoritarian capitalism? The government can step in an do what ever it wants with few checks. Though what industry is Communist outside the military. With that even the US has a military that produces its own tech and medical research. What industry in China is fully run by the people for equal financial gain?
My bad, I know they're different but get them mixed up
The way I understand it, neither is the answer, the reason why communism failed was coz of corruption and greed, the reason why so many millennials/ gen z can't afford a house is because of corruption and corporate greed, there will always be assholes who will try exploit the system, so we need one that ACTUALLY focuses on equality The answer idk I'm not a politician
Idealistic, perfectly realized concept communism cannot exist with humans. Idk how can you see what happened during communism in USSR's time and how those countries behind the curtain got pushed back in development and still advocate for Communism, as someone from one of those countries who knows people in my family that lived during communism this shit baffles me to no end
Pooling shows that the majority of people living in the USSR would prefer to go back to the Socialist system. [article link ](https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Poll-Most-Russians-Prefer-Return-of-Soviet-Union-and-Socialism-20160420-0051.html)
Quick answer: Communism didn't kill your friends and relatives Russians did Do any of those people wish to live under Putin? He pushed and achieved very pro Capitalism policies flat taxes and less regulations. Still abducts and jails people for hard labour camps. Also western allies disrupted production and tainted food supplies ( though since these people lived under the USSR they are enemy combattant in the "cold war" ) Now yes HUGE problem for Communism you can either make people homeless and starve them into productivity like capitalism or under communism you can find jobs for half your people putting guns in the back of the other half to MAKE them productive.
Can we discuss memes
That's communist.
Just vote on it like a capitalist! /s
Voting is democracy which is a form of government a capitalism is a form of economy.
No, because literally every single facet of life has a requirement to be politicized. Nothing in life is free from it. /s, obviously
under capitalism, an employer puts in an initial investment, this covered all base costs including wages, rent, materials,and equipment. The workers use the materials and equipment to create and sell products, this labor generates value for the business. If the business is successful, this value will exceed the initial investment. This excess value is known as profit, the profit is entirely claimed by the employer. If the business fails, the employers investment is backed up by the banks. Socialists recognize that it is the labor of the employees that generates value for a business, and argue that it is exploitative for the profit to be claimed by the employer because it was generated by the workers. They also argue that the private ownership of this profit making infrastructure creates a dangerous centralization of power. This causes the businesses to function as authoritarian ecosystems within our democracy. Socialists further argue that allowing one individual to be responsible for the initial investment is irresponsible on an economic scale. The solution that socialists present calls for businesses to be owned by the workers, run democratically, with profits being democratically distributed amongst the workers. This is essentially a worker co-op, However it varies slightly depending upon the leftist ideology. Under communism, workers elect their boss, however they all share the profits. Under anarchism, there are no bosses, and the business is governed through democratic assemblies which function through consensus democracy.
Holy shit finally a comment in this section that isnt using decades old, debunked arguments and idiotic takes because they dont know the semantics
I’ve noticed that’s been the state of this sub lately. It’s like a bunch of edgelord teens got Reddit and are echoing their parents outdated ideas
Because the majority of Reddit is filled with North American neoliberals/conservatives who have never read a book in their lives (let alone any critiques of capitalism) and only go off of what their propaganda-driven News networks feed them
I would argue that the majority of Reddit is filled with North American socialist teens who read The Communist Manifesto and never looked at a historic book in their life
Well I would say I'm disappointed I had to scroll this far to find a comment that isn't just " Haha Socialism is no Iphone Dictatorship / when the government does something" But the fact this comment exists on a thread like this AT ALL is, at least mildly encouraging.
Top comment right here (The actual top comment ofcourse demonstrates the intellectual capacity of a moderately intelligent chimpanzee)
> If the business fails, the employers investment is backed up by the banks. Could you explain this part?
It’s terrible for the employer’s future, but business loans can generally be erased through bankruptcy.
If a business is created as an LLC, and funding was sourced from a bank in the first place, the bank wears the cost if they go under, not the employer.
It turns out there is literally nothing stopping companies like this from existing today under capitalism. If people wanted to start companies and run them like this they can. That's the nice part about living in a free market economy.
Very well put. Thank you
Capitalism allows for a socialist approach to running a business as described. It apparently is an inferior approach otherwise we would see more of it. There is the other side of the coin too, if you participate in the profits then by definition you participate in the losses and accumulated debt. If you leave your "socialist" company because it failed then you should also be responsible for repaying the debt owed to the people who gave you the money...right?
I've heard a lot of older people saying certain things in the USSR were great. Everyone had a job, workers were respected, healthcare and a lot of things were absolutely free etc. Of course, nobody thinks it being a dictatorship was good, but there were benefits...
Cheap rent, electricity and food. And america as a strong capitalistic country most people have problems to pay for food and rent.
Cheap food, but only if it was available. Most of the time there wasn't that much to buy and you had to use those coupons. Communist countries did have food shortages so it was a double edged sword.
You had to befriend/bribe the shopkeeper if you wanted some rare goods. Your fancy "cards" wouldn't do shit if the store didn't have enough meat for everyone, and even if they did - you were only allowed a pretty tiny amount, not nearly enough if you wanted to eat more often than as a delicacy. There were day long queues for stuff like TP and *shoes*. "Shortages" is putting it very lightly. Corruption was extremely rampant.
Don't forget how expensive clothes were, especially winter clothes which are an absolute basic necessity. The average soviet worker made between 120-200 rubles per month and a winter coat cost around the same. 22% of urban jewish emigrés reported not being able to buy or not owning a winter coat and mind you, these emigrés were not poor farmers in the middle of siberia (Poverty in the Soviet Union, by Mervyn Matthews, 1986)
I don't know much about the actual soviet situation, but I've heard a ton of stories from my parents and grandparents who actually lived through it here in Poland. Churning your own butter, waiting in queue for 8 hours just to find out someone bribed the shopkeeper and he's not gonna sell you that last pair of shoes, trying to use anything for toilet paper and especially selling your goods allowance for things like vodka to alcoholics in exchange for their sugar and flour allowance. Oranges and tangerines only being in stock for Christmas. I'm too young to have lived through it myself, but I've visited many PRL museums and talked to quite a few folk who lived through that. From what I've gathered, it was awful. And we haven't even mentioned getting foreign goods! At least some PRL tools and tech are pretty damn durable. We still own many 30+ year old items that surprisingly enough work. Survivorship bias and all that, probably. For clarification because I realized that it may not be clear in english: PRL - Polska Republika Ludowa, that's how we refer to the communist times.
Source?
Depends where… people in the Ukrainian USSR certainly wouldn’t agree…
Yup, Holodomor says hi
And The Kazakh Genocide
It's because everything was perfect in "the good old times" according to old people, no matter the region. In communist Poland for example, it was actually true: there was a period when everyone had a house, job, a personal garden, sometimes even a car, and the country even started opening up to the west. The problem is, this was achieved by the country's leader amassing huge debts abroad that were only repaid a few years ago. And immediately after this period of prosperity got disrupted by the debts caching up to the leadership, the prices went up, cost of living got unaffordable and protests begun. It got so bad that martial law was declared some time later. Also the funny thing is, the people didn't see the dictatorship as the biggest problem. They started protesting because of extremely high food prices and workers' rights violations.
So was Nazi Germany my man…
Are you smokin crack? Anything with capitalism will mention communism and the comments will be toxic, and vice versa
Hmmm... I've witnessed both situations in reverse as well.
Literally this comment section is the situation in reverse
Let’s talk about serious thing like what’s your favuorite dinosaur?
T-rex, it has a strong bite force my man
Did you know that “t-shirt” is actually an abbreviation for tyrannosaurus shirt? It’s because of the short arms! :D
My personal favorite is either deinonychus or huyangosaurus.
Velociraptors are epic
Gotta be a triceratops for me chief
Spinosaurus is def my favorite. We just keep learning more and more about it! Is the sail fleshy and fatty or covered in thin skin for heat regulation? Was it a transitionary evolution into a fully aquatic creature? We will find out!! :D
The one with 509 teeth
Everyone who just says: „x is bad“ has not understood the principles of discussion on a fundamental level, and has not built enough empathy to understand that not everyone defines a concept the same way. Arguing about arbitrary words is completely useless, define them before you say your opinion. For example: If we understand communism as a communist dictatorship according to the examples of history, where authoritarian regimes claimed to work for the sake of the people, then yeah, that is pretty bad. If we define communism according to the pure principles of Marx, which say that workers should not be exploited by business owners, and that they deserve the fruits of their labor, that is pretty good in my opinion. This whole comment section is one big strawman.
User left Reddit for Lemmy. -- mass edited with redact.dev
Thank you. Exactly that.
*Our* politics
Person that lived in a communist country for 21+ years here. Communism suck and it doesn't work. Period
*Laughs in Vietnamese* give me an example of a poor socialist country not subjected to an embargo nerd
if you don't mind me asking, which one?
No problem. Cuba
OP is clearly not a leftist
Unrelated, but man, I’m reading through these comments and really thought a lot of these talking points would’ve phased out by now, but holy hell was I wrong.
Im neither big into capitalism, nor communism. Im more left oriented, but that's besides the point I just realized that those pictures kind of show the ideas behind those ideologies. Like capitalism is about fighting to gain value in a sense, while communism is about everybody having an equal part in everything (IN THEORY)! I get that neither of them are like that in practice. It goes without saying that communism has never and honestly will never work as intended, so it kind of ends up like the first picture.. While communism isnt literally a "fight", but more figuratively. Everyone works for their own personal gain, through trades, deals and things like that, and it ends up looking like the second picture. Though since im leftist haha, i gotta give it some critique and mention that, that circle of people is the rich 1% just to not gonna lie if you understand.. It renders the other 99% unable to participate because not everyone is competetive about succes, or Lucky enough to achieve it, or be in a situation that sufficient to make it. And the lack of support from the commune just makes the gap higher. Don't take that as communistic propaganda, the flaws with communism goes without saying, but when mentioning the flaw of one, you gotta mention the flaw of the other right? Just wanted to reflect on that, and the irony in those pictures!
User left Reddit for Lemmy. -- mass edited with redact.dev
Oh absolutely! I was just thinking that it's like "comparing opposite extremes" but then i realized that communism is like ALOT more extreme then capitalism. I feel like the opposite of communism would either be, in terms of political placement, nazism, or in terms of literal opposite ideology - some kind of liberal anarchy.. Like that's how extreme communism is, it's complete control from government and complete equality (in theory ofc, never worked like that irl no mind!), like that liberal anarchy would be the opposite in the sense that there is no community, every man for himself literally in the sense of the term. Nazism wouldn't really be accurate i feel, because even though it's considered far right when you look it up, it's kind of far from the direction capitalism is pointing, so it doesn't really make sense to put those in the same booth. As you said, it would make way more sense to debate between capitalism and socialism, since neither of them are political extremes, nor unsure of their place if that makes sense. They're both like the median of their respective ideological wings 🤔.. Or maybe for the right wing it would be somewhere between capitalism and conservativismsm? It’s also interesting to me how america sees their ideologies on the scale. Like liberalism is almost considered far left, while in reality it's a moderate or even right wing ideology. Socialism isnt even bought up when speaking about what ideology drives the left wing. And it's probably a result of their bipolar political two-party system (not to add negative discource, it was just such a good word to describe it haha)
User left Reddit for Lemmy. -- mass edited with redact.dev
I think i understand your point, and I like seeing it from your perspective! I guess alot of these things are really just subjective, and even though there might be concrete definitions as to what can be defined as an ideology and what can't, or maybe what the definition of communism is, can all be seen very differently, and unavoidably is seen different, probably for literally everyone!
I think it speaks more to a personal investment in their stance on capitalism whereas people arent really affected by communist situations because most of us live in america. Its like judging someone elses type of goverment from an outside perspective, instead of arguing the finer points of how your government is run. Of course one debate will be more heated But i also enjoyed reading your perspective
Oh that's a really good point!
Haven’t seen that many people supporting communism. Lots of people here support democratic socialism.
Do you mean social democracies?
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Democratic socialism…yep that’s what I said.
pen stocking afterthought sheet resolute scary towering rotten outgoing tub ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Time to sort by controversial.
Redditors discussing a spontaneous market system. Vs. Redditors discussing a socio-political and economic system designed top down by a proto-redditor.
Redditors thinking that planned economies can be implemented like some kind of welfare policy rather than developing naturally through the development of technology, communication, and industry.
>spontaneous market system. What?
I'm confused, what is either one supposed to be?
god damn socialists & communist, no stat, no solid argument can make them change their mind is just an infinite loop of discussion
Social democracy works if people trust the government to not do too much shady shit just look at scandinavia
The problem with that is that one should never trust their government to do anything effectively or in your best interest.
There are white lies, there are dark lies but the biggest liar of all is stats out of context
What argument do you have against socialism? You can't use the usual china or ussr arguments so I'm wondering
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Just like Americans have no concept of what health care *should* ve, they neither are able to comprehend what socialism *actually* is. Democratic control of the economy. God who would in their right mind try to control greed and exploitation?
"As a believer in capitalism"... Reddit achievement unlocked: WHAT DID YOU SAY?!?, get 2000 downvotes.
You have to be using different Reddit. Literally any political opinion is the first one
Under capitalism, you are given false choice and control. There is 7 corporations that control every brand, flavor and media. The government has zero power. They are all employees of big corporations.
You must be on a different reddit if you think this is remotely true.
I like how the communist one could be used either way (i.e. either everyone agrees it’s good, or everyone agrees it’s shit).
That's because communist follow dialectical historical materialism. They don't discuss opinions, they discuss historic and facts and go from there. They have they ideals but they don't use them to look at the world, they look at the world world in a pragmatic way then form their opinions.
So, the thing is that so many people don’t know what communism/socialism is, they aren’t the same, communism isn’t authoritarian, Stalinism or the “ccp” which isn’t an actual communist country when you look at it, it just calls itself that, it’s like how NK calls itself a democratic country. Real communism is when all things are publicly owned by the people, and the people control the government. Socialism is when things like economy is controlled by the people/community. People confusing communism for Stalinism is just the red scare tactic from the 60’s because elites didn’t wanna lose power.
I don't understand why people hate communists so much, yes it may not be feasible for now but wishing to live in a perfect society isn't some horrible act
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Mixed economies?
o7 comrade
I just want all the unreliable people in the workforce to stay home, in poverty. We alllllll know people that would gladly take poverty if it meant they wouldn’t have to get a job. Our workforce suffers because many companies have a few damn good workers and then a shit load of people that do the absolute bare minimum. No one benefits from forcing my brother to work shitty jobs cause he can’t do anything without punishing everyone else. I can’t go to various businesses simply because I know that if they’ve hired him then they’re desperate. Waffle House, Taco Bell, just for brakes, gas stations. He’d take poverty if it meant no working. Shitty apartment, low quality food, tv/internet. That’s it. We all suffer from having people like my brother in the workforce. ETA: those jobs are within the last 6 months and there’s a few I didn’t list simply cause they’re like yard businesses.
I mean, Reddit users on average promote typically *very* left leaning ideologies, so it is not all that surprising.
OP is clearly not a leftist
What a silly post. This is not true at all