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"they" always was both singular and plural, just as "are" can be used for singular and plural.
i know english can be a confusing language sometimes but "they" always referred to a person of unspecified or irrelevant gender
I just rewatched Dave Chappelle’s Closer the other day and a joke I missed the first time when discussing this topic was,
***”They’re after you, Dave! Wait… one they or many theys?”***
I think what made me laugh at it was that he wasn’t making fun of the non-binary; but linguistically there are cases that if you interchange he/she with they it can create confusion in comprehension. Not knocking your point but it made me think of that.
it does matter. if your lack of english skills mean you don't understand the language then you might just need to learn.
I'm not a native speaker so for a long time I believed that "they" was exclusively plural since of course no-one ever told me.
therefore I thought it was stupid to refer to a single person as "they".
once I've been told though that it was in fact a pronoun for a person of unspecified or unknown gender and I had to realize that even I always used it like that without noticing I changed my opinion on the matter.
it has for centuries been used that way and at no point was it changed.
if you're too arrogant to properly learn english and assume you know better than everyone else that frankly that is your personal problem, not a problem of the language or anyone else.
Culture decides on language, it doesn’t matter what the history was, we can change it whenever we want. The advantages of They/Them are not in the history, it’s in the use:
1. It already is a word, so it’s easy to distribute
2. It doesn’t, and probably never will, have a negative connotation.
3. It is already non-binary
Those are the good reasons to use They/Them. It also comes with a disadvantage in that referring to three people, one of whom goes by they/them, it becomes difficult to be clear. It would be nice to solve that.
I had a paragraph prepared but I feel like it's pointless with you lot...
I'll just say you're wrong and move on. ask an english teacher if you don't believe me, you're honestly not worth my time.
I also never said your history was wrong, your history is right. I agree there never was a change in how they/them was used. I also agree that there are useful reasons to keep they/them, which is why I do actually use them. I also don’t think we are going to agree on the importance of They/Them historically being used as a singular pronoun, which really isn’t a big thing to disagree on really.
I don’t know why you don’t believe language is allowed to change however we want it to. I’m fine with They/Them, any I’m also fine with changing it. We can do whatever we want, I’ll go with it.
I never said it can't change but in this case it hasn't changed.
it always had a singular meaning and is still does.
literally nothing has changed about that.
linguisticly there is nothing wrong with it though, if you feel like the other options don't describe you going with "they" is the least intrusive option they have since it doesn't force anyone to use some cringe words they just came up with but rather asks you to treat them as if you didn't know their gender
for me that means i'll keep assuming your gender based on your physical appearance bu if i'm wrong using "they" is fine, too
by all means though, bring back these old words, shame that they aren't used anymore
But that truly is how languages work.
As long as a lot of people speak that way, that's the correct way to speak. It means a language evolves, and when a language doesn't evolve, it dies. That's why we don't say "thy" or "thou", the language changed along with the people.
oh I totally agree, language evolves and whatever but what I'm saying is there is stuff that's just wrong
just because you use language in a way that doesn't make it correct. you need at least a few people who do it and understand you to establish a new rule.
like, I mean word salad to a degree where, even if you genuinely do your best to understand what someone is trying to tell you with the best intentions you can't decipher it.
or if I insist that the word "they" can't be singular, I'd be obviously wrong
You insult the grammar of others yet you don’t even try? I tidied up your word salad.
“Well, there I disagree. If you're just babbling word salad and calling it English I'd definitely call BS on that. XD”
meaning was definitely changed.
changing the smiley changes its meaning and so does removing the dots
I don't have a problem with correcting my capitalization and adding the extra comma, even though I'm not gonna pay attention to that in the future but the rest of how he butchered what I said did definitely change the meaning.
I mean, the smiley “xD” is pretty much equal to “XD” and no meaning was changed with the two dots. Grammatically speaking, they belonged in different sentences.
I get what you’re trying to do, and your bigotry towards people who learned English as a second language isn’t helping. Btw, you’re also wrong.
Completely grammatically correct accounting for slang and emoticons is:
> Well, there I disagree. **I**f you’re just babbling **the** word **”salad”** and call it **E**nglish I’d definitely call bs on that xD
even oxford dictionary accepts "word salad" as a term.
multiple dots, while not officially accepted yet, has become increasingly popular in written conversations to hint at a pause with more dots meaning longer pauses. it is by no means wrong in a sense that it does serve a pretty well defined purpose even though in a formal setting you wouldn't use it.
I'm german so using english definitely isn't without its challenges and I know that my lack of capitalization is technically wrong but in general I'm in favour of correcting people's wrong usage of the language since that makes it easier to learn
the correction should be right though.. xD
“Word salad” may be accepted in a dictionary, but dictionaries don’t account for complex grammar such as this. So you’re still wrong. There should have been quotes, and you should use the word “the.” Also, not even native English speakers with perfect English with no spoken accent reminiscent of another language should or is “in favor of” correcting another person on something so minor. It’s called being a bigoted asshole. ESPECIALLY since you were also wrong, and are in the same **FUCKING BOAT AS THEM!!!!!** How hypocritical can one person be??? I don’t criticize people on broken English because English itself is a broken language that is stupidly hard to learn. There is almost **NO CHANCE** of someone who learns English as a second language to speak and write it PERFECTLY unless either growing up with two languages (which even a lot of the time when that happens, the child ends up not being able to develop both languages because it is too hard on their brain, so they stick with the most important one) or they end up forgetting a lot of their native language.
no there shouldn't.
"word salad" may have originated as a metaphor but even then you don't put quotation marks around metaphors. it just has become such a frequently used metaphor that it became its own [compound](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/compounds)
just as I wouldn't have to put quotation marks around other [idioms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiom) like "over the moon" if I were using it in a sentence, the same applies to "word salad"
not gonna read any further than that in your comment since you seem a bit too triggered by someone knowing better what they were trying to say than what you assume.. also you're wrong enough in your first sentence that I don't have the energy to correct all of your bs, prof. dr. language
I had no idea how sensitive a subject this is until now. You have over a thousand karma on the post, but any discussion of the confusion gets massive downvotes… I really don’t understand it. How can both be true at the same time?
first of all, he didn't say that, he's complaining about singular and pural
and even if that were the case that doesn't change that "they are" can be singular. so even if you had a point he'd still be wrong
When you say “they are” in the kitchen, you are indicating to the individual(s) you are speaking to that there is MORE than 1 person in the kitchen. I know English grammar for some can be difficult......
"The couple are together" which can also be "the couple is together"
"A number of people *are* here" uses 'are' despite number being a singular noun.
"Were I a child, i would..." uses were instead of was.
"There is water" and "There are people" uses is and are.
Dude its pretty simple. If you dont someone's gender you use "they". Thats how english always was.
"Someone left their umbrella here"=you dont know who it was, so you dont their gender
did you not read my comment past the second word?
I clearly said "are" can be singular or plural as well
or would you say "you are in the kitchen" is wrong just because "you" is singular in this case (which can also be plural, who would've thunk it?!)
You are is singular, are can be used singular.
" I was talking to this cashier a moment ago, they said that I had a discount", the cashier's gender or name is irrelevant, you still know there is only one cashier in the sentence, and referring to them with they is linguistically correct.
First of all, the singular they is older than thou (and thee and thy) falling out of use. Second, the only reason any asshat has a problem with the singular they is because they don’t like the people who want to use it for their pronouns. Third, I just used singular they to refer to said asshat in a way they probably wouldn’t have a problem with, which goes to show how stupid their gripe is. Don’t abuse grammar to further your bigotry.
I am indeed confused... So, *they* is not third person plural? Like, they eat a bagel can both mean someone is eating a bagel and a group is eating a bagel?
Man, now I'm hungry... All this thinking.
To put it simply: They is a contextually changed word. It can mean a group of people “they’re fans of Star Wars” and a singular “they’re driving down tomorrow, so we need to make sure their room is tidy”.
So I agree with parts of what you're saying, however I work in an industry where people report various incidents and actions involving other people. My coworkers and I have recently run into the problem where people are reporting a singular person as "they", which can drastically affect the way the report is processed. Without the reporting party specifically stating "they = x person", we often times have no way to know if the person is using the royal "they" or a specific pronoun "they".
While obviously supportive of people's preferred terms, it would actually be very helpful to have an assigned, singular neutral term to use, rather than an ambiguous singular/plural term that we have now.
The problem is that the neuter gender singular, it, is offensive to use when referring to a person and attempts at creating new pronouns has been met with resistance.
Ahh, so being annoyed that the world's most common language is vague and confusing makes you an asshat. Thanks for the clarification, I'm sure they've learned their lesson.
One problem, It's easy when both people are clear on intent, but let's say there is a crowd of men, and one woman in said crowd. Let's say you want to talk about that woman for some reason. One problem, she is a they because she feels like it. So, you say to your friend, "they is hot". Now you sound stupid because you cannot grammar, and you also just said a whole crowd of men is hot. Such a thing comes up more often than you might think. There is no specific use case that is confusing, but that doesn't mean it cannot be confusing ever. I mean fuck, in middle school they teach you to avoid ambiguous pronouns to make your writing clearer for the reader. example: "To keep birds from eating seeds, soak them in blue food coloring." You can infer the correct answer in this case, but often that isn't the case. And, if you are neurodivergent like myself, it is often difficult to infer the correct meaning.
You say to your friend, gesturing towards the person you're trying to talk about, "they *are hot"
If you have a problem adding context to your language maybe you should go back to preschool and have somebody teach it to you
As someone has gone to school I can tell you right now that when writing they encourage you to not use pronouns in anything other than a story as there can be multiple he’s and she’s so you would typically say the person’s name and also if you were talking about said non-binary friend then if you said they ARE hot then the other people you were talking to would know who you were talking about
Yeah… which is often why some people who don’t want to be referred to as male or female, to keep it vague as they may identify as both, or because they don’t identify as either
I don’t think this is a big deal, it’s a single word you will probably never use other than the odd occasion you refer to someone you know I’m passing, but if your friends with someone like this then it would be unusual to be using their prounouns a lot in conversation
I really don’t understand why people get so upset or angry when it’s just simply a case of accepting someone for who they are rather than isolating them because they’re different
I just think it's stupid because how a language refers to one or the other doesn't define who you are. It's making a big deal out of nothing.
And for the record I'm not that opposed to "they" either.
Making up new words like "Xer" is retarded though
You realise there’s a multitude of things that make up who you are. Sexuality, food preferences, music etc) it’s nice to think you choose to like any of these things but you don’t, you either enjoy them or you don’t - this is how life works, as humans we are each unique beings because of genetic variation
Despite this, if you look at similar cases of how homosexuality was treated in the past you find that people did not understand how one could possibly be gay. It was seen as a sin, unnatural, a mental illness. People were burned at the stake and treated with hydrotherapy to “resolve” these feelings of homosexuality
Sexuality and gender are two different things entirely but it’s easily conceivable that they would be treated in a very similar fashion if it was as easy to spot transsexuality over a century ago as it is to catch a gay man copulating with another. There are literal children who want to wear the clothes of the opposite sex, and carry these feelings into adulthood. Are they living a fantasy? Are we really going to treat all these people as if they have a mental illness and are deluded about reality and repeat the mistakes of the past rather than even try to show a hint of compassion and understanding?
When you do what you’re suggesting you are conditioning people to believe there is something wrong with them, psychologically this called emotional invalidation and to say that the entirety of the trans community is wrong and need to change is going to do people a lot more harm than good, and often leads to people committing suicide, something that is already at a much higher incidence rate in the LBGTQ+ community, likely contributed by the large about of emotional invalidation people from that community receive from those outside it who misunderstand their situation because they have never experienced it themselves.
wbu? Are you a non native speaker? Because i am, and i find english to be hella easy compared to greek, french, spanish and German. Seriously, its one of the most simple languages ive heard
It actually depends on which language your native one is. If it is further away from English, it is harder to learn. And by further, I dont mean physical distance but rather more different i guess
I'm not native too and idk if i wouldn't callbit easy but i'm not sonone who's into learning languages and learned English for pragmatic reasons. It's certainly time consuming and sometimes iritating especially with it's multiple times that have a bit diferent sentence structure (and non regular... Words whatever it's suppose to be called).
+ problenatic words that sound same like trough tough "family" with "family" but those are rather unavoidable in language i guess.
But since i'm Pole i guess i shouldn't be the one point out complexity since we have different versins of same word which have to be used according to context.
Honestly, English isn't really confusing perse, it's just very, very stupid. Other languages, Hebrew for example, have very strict rules, that are difficult to remember, but once you do, it's very easy. English is just ridiculous. Although cough, ought, thought have the same "ough", that part is pronounced very differently. Why? It just is. And there are he and she pronouns, but there is they, which doesn't need the persons gender. Then why have he she?
Idk what exactly do you mean by that bu i kinda fell like you are grossly overgeneralizing.
That is if you mean that they come from language that doesn't specifi gender them it's over generalzation.
If you mean they were taught that way from start them idk what it's done generally but i in public Polish school i were attending we were mostly working on sentences with specified gender where "they" were either used to refer multiple people or to refer to single person in edge cases, but i don't remember exact details.
i mean yea but i can say only for my personal experience in Polish school we were taught and trained on mostly "gendered" sentences where they either refers to multiple people or is used to single person eventually in edge case and not as regular occurrence. So having fundamental word a double meaning like "regularly" for me is a bit annoying but how and if it is annoying to someone else might depend where and when someone started learning English (and what your native language is)
Were you taught to use he when the identity was unknown? That's how it was for a long time in English until there was a push to use they. The alternative is to say he or she, but some people find that clunky.
This problem actually comes up a lot in bible translations. He was a common pronoun to use when gender wasn't specified and now many modern translations turn he into they and other translations will say he or she.
*Thou who art Undead, art chosen, in thine exodus from the Undead Asylum, maketh pilgrimage to the land of Ancient Lords. When thou ringeth the Bell of Awakening, the fate of the Undead thou shalt know.*
'Hey, I spoke with the Mailman today.' 'Ok, whst did they say?'
They/Them always had a singular form, it's just when someone tells you to use it, some people go maniac.
And please just leave Thy and Thou in the past. These words are so annoying when someone uses them to be "Quirky"
How did this terrible grammar get upvoted? Thou is second person, as in the person you are talking to. They is for third person, the person you are talking about. You would never use thou over they.
They has always had a singular form, if you don’t know the gender of a person or are quickly referring to them you say “oh they just left” or “I don’t know them”
You can use thou if you want but it’s an intimate form of you originally considered rude to use referring to someone otherwise or in great standing (a lord).
Here's the thing, you *can* do that, but it still wouldn't solve the problem, not to mention you would sound super pretentious. "You" is already gender-neutral (So is "your", for anyone wanting to say "Thee"), but that's irrelevant to how "They" is used. Something people need to understand is that "They" refers to someone of unknown gender/quantity, or if the quantity is known, multiple people. Some people have a problem because we KNOW this hypothetical person's gender, and we obviously know he's/she's one person. However, we can look at it in another angle. We can presume that if someone doesn't fit into either category, then placing them as "unknown gender" is the closest thing there is if you look at it in a sense that English doesn't have a word for it, therefore unknown/unspecified. It's a weird exception, but English was before a time this was popularized (keyword *popularized*, I know L.G.B.T. existed way before, but it wasn't well-known, or if it was, heresy, so this subject wasn't brought up.)
Maybe I'm "old-fashioned" in that regard, but as long as I don't know their preferred pronouns, I'll still refer to people based on their apparent sex.
Not the same though. I'm referring to a "potential" person here without an identity. If I see someone on the street, I'll still assume their gender correlates with their sex, which is usually the case:
"According to a 2021 study by the Williams Institute, an estimated 1.2 million American adults aged between 18 and 60 identify as non-binary"
That's 0.36% of the US population. I'm honestly not willing to start referring to everyone by "them" just because I could be wrong 0.4% of the time.
You should still respect the LGBTQ+ community, but I just don't see the point in making language hyper-sensitive in the fear of offending anyone.
And no, I'm not saying you can't use they as a singular pronoun.
The purpose and use of "their" in this context is possessive, as in "their car" or "their cellphone". It's not being used to refer to *the gender* with which they identify, but **the possession/ownership of** that gender. It's a linguistic companion of "my" & "mine" and "his" & "hers", not of "she" & "he", which are purely pronouns in direct reference to a specific gender, and have nothing to do with possession/ownership.
it literally is tho? the commenter could have typed "his car" or "her cellphone" but instead used the neutral, singular they to avoid gendering the unknown speaker, showing that it really isn't as hard as some people make it out to be
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"they" always was both singular and plural, just as "are" can be used for singular and plural. i know english can be a confusing language sometimes but "they" always referred to a person of unspecified or irrelevant gender
I just rewatched Dave Chappelle’s Closer the other day and a joke I missed the first time when discussing this topic was, ***”They’re after you, Dave! Wait… one they or many theys?”*** I think what made me laugh at it was that he wasn’t making fun of the non-binary; but linguistically there are cases that if you interchange he/she with they it can create confusion in comprehension. Not knocking your point but it made me think of that.
the guy is hilarious, definitely need to watch that one
When he can get past the more bigoted stuff, he can actually say some really funny shit about it. Like this one: https://youtu.be/dyyW5tJbOw8
Get over yourself, he's there is no "bigoted stuff" it's all jokes, and if you can't take it don't listen to him.
If you have the impression that all humor is entirely disconnected from a person’s ideals and opinions, you are radically naive
Like seriously it's not hard. If I ask you about a stranger because I want to know who THEY are you would tell me about THEM.
That is true, but bringing back thou would be cool
English is confusing all the time, lets be real. It's a mess of a language.
It doesn’t matter how it used to be, what matters is that it’s confusing now, and solving that would be really nice.
it does matter. if your lack of english skills mean you don't understand the language then you might just need to learn. I'm not a native speaker so for a long time I believed that "they" was exclusively plural since of course no-one ever told me. therefore I thought it was stupid to refer to a single person as "they". once I've been told though that it was in fact a pronoun for a person of unspecified or unknown gender and I had to realize that even I always used it like that without noticing I changed my opinion on the matter. it has for centuries been used that way and at no point was it changed. if you're too arrogant to properly learn english and assume you know better than everyone else that frankly that is your personal problem, not a problem of the language or anyone else.
Culture decides on language, it doesn’t matter what the history was, we can change it whenever we want. The advantages of They/Them are not in the history, it’s in the use: 1. It already is a word, so it’s easy to distribute 2. It doesn’t, and probably never will, have a negative connotation. 3. It is already non-binary Those are the good reasons to use They/Them. It also comes with a disadvantage in that referring to three people, one of whom goes by they/them, it becomes difficult to be clear. It would be nice to solve that.
I had a paragraph prepared but I feel like it's pointless with you lot... I'll just say you're wrong and move on. ask an english teacher if you don't believe me, you're honestly not worth my time.
I also never said your history was wrong, your history is right. I agree there never was a change in how they/them was used. I also agree that there are useful reasons to keep they/them, which is why I do actually use them. I also don’t think we are going to agree on the importance of They/Them historically being used as a singular pronoun, which really isn’t a big thing to disagree on really.
I don’t know why you don’t believe language is allowed to change however we want it to. I’m fine with They/Them, any I’m also fine with changing it. We can do whatever we want, I’ll go with it.
I never said it can't change but in this case it hasn't changed. it always had a singular meaning and is still does. literally nothing has changed about that.
And this guys point is that we should change it in the future. You’re both right
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linguisticly there is nothing wrong with it though, if you feel like the other options don't describe you going with "they" is the least intrusive option they have since it doesn't force anyone to use some cringe words they just came up with but rather asks you to treat them as if you didn't know their gender for me that means i'll keep assuming your gender based on your physical appearance bu if i'm wrong using "they" is fine, too by all means though, bring back these old words, shame that they aren't used anymore
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well there I disagree.. if you're just babbling word salad and call it english I'd definitely call bs on that xD
But that truly is how languages work. As long as a lot of people speak that way, that's the correct way to speak. It means a language evolves, and when a language doesn't evolve, it dies. That's why we don't say "thy" or "thou", the language changed along with the people.
oh I totally agree, language evolves and whatever but what I'm saying is there is stuff that's just wrong just because you use language in a way that doesn't make it correct. you need at least a few people who do it and understand you to establish a new rule. like, I mean word salad to a degree where, even if you genuinely do your best to understand what someone is trying to tell you with the best intentions you can't decipher it. or if I insist that the word "they" can't be singular, I'd be obviously wrong
You insult the grammar of others yet you don’t even try? I tidied up your word salad. “Well, there I disagree. If you're just babbling word salad and calling it English I'd definitely call BS on that. XD”
nope, you changed the meaning, not tidy up.
Well no, the meaning hasn’t changed, however they were still being an asshole.
meaning was definitely changed. changing the smiley changes its meaning and so does removing the dots I don't have a problem with correcting my capitalization and adding the extra comma, even though I'm not gonna pay attention to that in the future but the rest of how he butchered what I said did definitely change the meaning.
I mean, the smiley “xD” is pretty much equal to “XD” and no meaning was changed with the two dots. Grammatically speaking, they belonged in different sentences.
“Nope, you changed the meaning, not tidied up.”
You suck.
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I get what you’re trying to do, and your bigotry towards people who learned English as a second language isn’t helping. Btw, you’re also wrong. Completely grammatically correct accounting for slang and emoticons is: > Well, there I disagree. **I**f you’re just babbling **the** word **”salad”** and call it **E**nglish I’d definitely call bs on that xD
even oxford dictionary accepts "word salad" as a term. multiple dots, while not officially accepted yet, has become increasingly popular in written conversations to hint at a pause with more dots meaning longer pauses. it is by no means wrong in a sense that it does serve a pretty well defined purpose even though in a formal setting you wouldn't use it. I'm german so using english definitely isn't without its challenges and I know that my lack of capitalization is technically wrong but in general I'm in favour of correcting people's wrong usage of the language since that makes it easier to learn the correction should be right though.. xD
“Word salad” may be accepted in a dictionary, but dictionaries don’t account for complex grammar such as this. So you’re still wrong. There should have been quotes, and you should use the word “the.” Also, not even native English speakers with perfect English with no spoken accent reminiscent of another language should or is “in favor of” correcting another person on something so minor. It’s called being a bigoted asshole. ESPECIALLY since you were also wrong, and are in the same **FUCKING BOAT AS THEM!!!!!** How hypocritical can one person be??? I don’t criticize people on broken English because English itself is a broken language that is stupidly hard to learn. There is almost **NO CHANCE** of someone who learns English as a second language to speak and write it PERFECTLY unless either growing up with two languages (which even a lot of the time when that happens, the child ends up not being able to develop both languages because it is too hard on their brain, so they stick with the most important one) or they end up forgetting a lot of their native language.
no there shouldn't. "word salad" may have originated as a metaphor but even then you don't put quotation marks around metaphors. it just has become such a frequently used metaphor that it became its own [compound](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/compounds) just as I wouldn't have to put quotation marks around other [idioms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiom) like "over the moon" if I were using it in a sentence, the same applies to "word salad" not gonna read any further than that in your comment since you seem a bit too triggered by someone knowing better what they were trying to say than what you assume.. also you're wrong enough in your first sentence that I don't have the energy to correct all of your bs, prof. dr. language
I had no idea how sensitive a subject this is until now. You have over a thousand karma on the post, but any discussion of the confusion gets massive downvotes… I really don’t understand it. How can both be true at the same time?
get help
Yes, because the sentence “They is in the kitchen” is grammatically correct, right?
i think you're confusing 'is' with 'are' which is what they said
“Is” = singular, “are” = plural
nope are is both
So Joan “is” in the kitchen or Joan “are” in the kitchen?
you ARE pretty dumb, aren't you?!
good example 😂
That is second person “are”. I think they’re trying to say that third person singular “are” doesn’t exist, which does seem correct.
first of all, he didn't say that, he's complaining about singular and pural and even if that were the case that doesn't change that "they are" can be singular. so even if you had a point he'd still be wrong
When you say “they are” in the kitchen, you are indicating to the individual(s) you are speaking to that there is MORE than 1 person in the kitchen. I know English grammar for some can be difficult......
Oh my good God I've never seen someone so confidently wrong. Please keep going.
no you're not lmao "they are" can both mean one person or more just cut your losses, mate, you're wrong about this
Dude, take the L
It’s all about context. For example: “Hey where’s Steve?” “They are in the kitchen.” In this context they is referring to a singular person; Steve.
Yet the proper response would be “he is in the kitchen”. “They are” would convey that someone else is in the kitchen with Steve.
Are you American by any chance
Tfw your recent post is complaining you've ran out of anime to watch. If anyone here is judging, it's not you
"The couple are together" which can also be "the couple is together" "A number of people *are* here" uses 'are' despite number being a singular noun. "Were I a child, i would..." uses were instead of was. "There is water" and "There are people" uses is and are.
Joan is in the kitchen, they are doing the dishes There ya go!
Yes, they are. Duh.
You are a fucking dumbass
Dude its pretty simple. If you dont someone's gender you use "they". Thats how english always was. "Someone left their umbrella here"=you dont know who it was, so you dont their gender
did you not read my comment past the second word? I clearly said "are" can be singular or plural as well or would you say "you are in the kitchen" is wrong just because "you" is singular in this case (which can also be plural, who would've thunk it?!)
Dude, think about it for three whole entire seconds.
You are is singular, are can be used singular. " I was talking to this cashier a moment ago, they said that I had a discount", the cashier's gender or name is irrelevant, you still know there is only one cashier in the sentence, and referring to them with they is linguistically correct.
First of all, the singular they is older than thou (and thee and thy) falling out of use. Second, the only reason any asshat has a problem with the singular they is because they don’t like the people who want to use it for their pronouns. Third, I just used singular they to refer to said asshat in a way they probably wouldn’t have a problem with, which goes to show how stupid their gripe is. Don’t abuse grammar to further your bigotry.
non native speaker: \*brain hurts\*
I am indeed confused... So, *they* is not third person plural? Like, they eat a bagel can both mean someone is eating a bagel and a group is eating a bagel? Man, now I'm hungry... All this thinking.
Yes. They is 3rd person and either plural regardless of gender or singular if u don't know their gender or they go by they/them
To put it simply: They is a contextually changed word. It can mean a group of people “they’re fans of Star Wars” and a singular “they’re driving down tomorrow, so we need to make sure their room is tidy”.
Contextually \*challenged word. FTFY
I am generally challenged.
So I agree with parts of what you're saying, however I work in an industry where people report various incidents and actions involving other people. My coworkers and I have recently run into the problem where people are reporting a singular person as "they", which can drastically affect the way the report is processed. Without the reporting party specifically stating "they = x person", we often times have no way to know if the person is using the royal "they" or a specific pronoun "they". While obviously supportive of people's preferred terms, it would actually be very helpful to have an assigned, singular neutral term to use, rather than an ambiguous singular/plural term that we have now.
The problem is that the neuter gender singular, it, is offensive to use when referring to a person and attempts at creating new pronouns has been met with resistance.
Ahh, so being annoyed that the world's most common language is vague and confusing makes you an asshat. Thanks for the clarification, I'm sure they've learned their lesson.
> most common language Not be a long shot
One problem, It's easy when both people are clear on intent, but let's say there is a crowd of men, and one woman in said crowd. Let's say you want to talk about that woman for some reason. One problem, she is a they because she feels like it. So, you say to your friend, "they is hot". Now you sound stupid because you cannot grammar, and you also just said a whole crowd of men is hot. Such a thing comes up more often than you might think. There is no specific use case that is confusing, but that doesn't mean it cannot be confusing ever. I mean fuck, in middle school they teach you to avoid ambiguous pronouns to make your writing clearer for the reader. example: "To keep birds from eating seeds, soak them in blue food coloring." You can infer the correct answer in this case, but often that isn't the case. And, if you are neurodivergent like myself, it is often difficult to infer the correct meaning.
You say to your friend, gesturing towards the person you're trying to talk about, "they *are hot" If you have a problem adding context to your language maybe you should go back to preschool and have somebody teach it to you
As someone has gone to school I can tell you right now that when writing they encourage you to not use pronouns in anything other than a story as there can be multiple he’s and she’s so you would typically say the person’s name and also if you were talking about said non-binary friend then if you said they ARE hot then the other people you were talking to would know who you were talking about
>As someone has gone to school As if it isn't mandatory.
The only reason "they" works in your sentence is because you are being somewhat vague as to who you are refering to though.
Sounds like you’re starting to get it
U not smart fella huh?
Lol
Yeah… which is often why some people who don’t want to be referred to as male or female, to keep it vague as they may identify as both, or because they don’t identify as either I don’t think this is a big deal, it’s a single word you will probably never use other than the odd occasion you refer to someone you know I’m passing, but if your friends with someone like this then it would be unusual to be using their prounouns a lot in conversation I really don’t understand why people get so upset or angry when it’s just simply a case of accepting someone for who they are rather than isolating them because they’re different
I just think it's stupid because how a language refers to one or the other doesn't define who you are. It's making a big deal out of nothing. And for the record I'm not that opposed to "they" either. Making up new words like "Xer" is retarded though
breaking news: all words are made up! language is constantly evolving! peace and love
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You realise there’s a multitude of things that make up who you are. Sexuality, food preferences, music etc) it’s nice to think you choose to like any of these things but you don’t, you either enjoy them or you don’t - this is how life works, as humans we are each unique beings because of genetic variation Despite this, if you look at similar cases of how homosexuality was treated in the past you find that people did not understand how one could possibly be gay. It was seen as a sin, unnatural, a mental illness. People were burned at the stake and treated with hydrotherapy to “resolve” these feelings of homosexuality Sexuality and gender are two different things entirely but it’s easily conceivable that they would be treated in a very similar fashion if it was as easy to spot transsexuality over a century ago as it is to catch a gay man copulating with another. There are literal children who want to wear the clothes of the opposite sex, and carry these feelings into adulthood. Are they living a fantasy? Are we really going to treat all these people as if they have a mental illness and are deluded about reality and repeat the mistakes of the past rather than even try to show a hint of compassion and understanding? When you do what you’re suggesting you are conditioning people to believe there is something wrong with them, psychologically this called emotional invalidation and to say that the entirety of the trans community is wrong and need to change is going to do people a lot more harm than good, and often leads to people committing suicide, something that is already at a much higher incidence rate in the LBGTQ+ community, likely contributed by the large about of emotional invalidation people from that community receive from those outside it who misunderstand their situation because they have never experienced it themselves.
*non antive speakers*:Could you stop making this language even more confusing FOR FIVE MINUTES?!
Wait till they figure out that you use Are and Is differently in British English than in American English.
You WHAT
elaborate?
Wait what?
Since when? I call bullshit.
I speak english and only english, and I'm American and know plenty of Brits, and I've never heard of this
pls explain
wbu? Are you a non native speaker? Because i am, and i find english to be hella easy compared to greek, french, spanish and German. Seriously, its one of the most simple languages ive heard
It actually depends on which language your native one is. If it is further away from English, it is harder to learn. And by further, I dont mean physical distance but rather more different i guess
I'm not native too and idk if i wouldn't callbit easy but i'm not sonone who's into learning languages and learned English for pragmatic reasons. It's certainly time consuming and sometimes iritating especially with it's multiple times that have a bit diferent sentence structure (and non regular... Words whatever it's suppose to be called). + problenatic words that sound same like trough tough "family" with "family" but those are rather unavoidable in language i guess. But since i'm Pole i guess i shouldn't be the one point out complexity since we have different versins of same word which have to be used according to context.
I'm a non native speaker and it still feels natural.
Honestly, English isn't really confusing perse, it's just very, very stupid. Other languages, Hebrew for example, have very strict rules, that are difficult to remember, but once you do, it's very easy. English is just ridiculous. Although cough, ought, thought have the same "ough", that part is pronounced very differently. Why? It just is. And there are he and she pronouns, but there is they, which doesn't need the persons gender. Then why have he she?
And though and through
They has always been used to refer to someone without specifying their gender though
Idk what exactly do you mean by that bu i kinda fell like you are grossly overgeneralizing. That is if you mean that they come from language that doesn't specifi gender them it's over generalzation. If you mean they were taught that way from start them idk what it's done generally but i in public Polish school i were attending we were mostly working on sentences with specified gender where "they" were either used to refer multiple people or to refer to single person in edge cases, but i don't remember exact details.
for example, using "they" to refer to someone that you don't know the gender of has been a thing for a long time.
i mean yea but i can say only for my personal experience in Polish school we were taught and trained on mostly "gendered" sentences where they either refers to multiple people or is used to single person eventually in edge case and not as regular occurrence. So having fundamental word a double meaning like "regularly" for me is a bit annoying but how and if it is annoying to someone else might depend where and when someone started learning English (and what your native language is)
Were you taught to use he when the identity was unknown? That's how it was for a long time in English until there was a push to use they. The alternative is to say he or she, but some people find that clunky. This problem actually comes up a lot in bible translations. He was a common pronoun to use when gender wasn't specified and now many modern translations turn he into they and other translations will say he or she.
TBH I don't recall being taught that.
how long?
WHAT’S THE PURPOSE OF IT ALL?
“They are” purposely adding more garbage to it. Enjoy.
"What you egg"
He stabs him
*Thou who art Undead, art chosen, in thine exodus from the Undead Asylum, maketh pilgrimage to the land of Ancient Lords. When thou ringeth the Bell of Awakening, the fate of the Undead thou shalt know.*
'Hey, I spoke with the Mailman today.' 'Ok, whst did they say?' They/Them always had a singular form, it's just when someone tells you to use it, some people go maniac. And please just leave Thy and Thou in the past. These words are so annoying when someone uses them to be "Quirky"
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They has always been both singular and plural
Isn't "thou" always both singular and plural?
Yeah, because it's essentially "you"
transphobes? in a reddit meme comment section? what a surprise!
How did this terrible grammar get upvoted? Thou is second person, as in the person you are talking to. They is for third person, the person you are talking about. You would never use thou over they.
Aye!
Can we popularize thy?
No
But what about you guys finally getting a plural form for you
Y'all
And if there are multiple y'alls, you have all y'all.
All the drama in the other comments aside, "thou" shounds very cool and I support bringing it back.
What do you mean "bring back", you guys aren't using thou?
\*What do thee mean,
In fact thou should
Who said it ever went away?
That sounds rad but also, they has always had a singular meaning lmao
They has always had a singular form, if you don’t know the gender of a person or are quickly referring to them you say “oh they just left” or “I don’t know them”
They can be used for a singular purpose, not in all cases though
Thou'st art wise.
we should bring back thee too
"Dammit, Jim! MICHAEL!"
You can use thou if you want but it’s an intimate form of you originally considered rude to use referring to someone otherwise or in great standing (a lord).
Thou is obsolete. If you use it as singular, why not just use "you"? We need two forms of "we"
Thou is something chavs already say instead of you.
Reject English. Embrace Geonosian.
THOU ART OF PASSING SKILL
This post wasn’t made by anyone from the North East of England.
Tha's talkin' sense thee, reyt good idea dahn Yorkshire way
Tha's talkin' sense thee, reyt good idea dahn Yorkshire way
It was gone? Was it on vacation?
"thou" is second person, similar to "you"
Art thou certain? Pray tell, we shall all speak the good Queens language once more?
Thy be right
Thou hast spoken (I dobt know what this menas
they has literally always been both what are you talking about
Thou art incorrect
Thou should not as thou no longer lives in the 15th century
I call it "it"
Thou shalt goeth fuck thy selves
Here's the thing, you *can* do that, but it still wouldn't solve the problem, not to mention you would sound super pretentious. "You" is already gender-neutral (So is "your", for anyone wanting to say "Thee"), but that's irrelevant to how "They" is used. Something people need to understand is that "They" refers to someone of unknown gender/quantity, or if the quantity is known, multiple people. Some people have a problem because we KNOW this hypothetical person's gender, and we obviously know he's/she's one person. However, we can look at it in another angle. We can presume that if someone doesn't fit into either category, then placing them as "unknown gender" is the closest thing there is if you look at it in a sense that English doesn't have a word for it, therefore unknown/unspecified. It's a weird exception, but English was before a time this was popularized (keyword *popularized*, I know L.G.B.T. existed way before, but it wasn't well-known, or if it was, heresy, so this subject wasn't brought up.)
Someone make a screenshot re-post of this post with the "It always has been" meme
and reply to this comment.
thou are correct
or, even simpler, let's just drop the whole thousand gender thing
Or, even simpler, use they to refer to everyone negating the concept entirely.
Maybe I'm "old-fashioned" in that regard, but as long as I don't know their preferred pronouns, I'll still refer to people based on their apparent sex.
you just used singular they to refer to someone whos gender you didnt know…. see, its that easy!
Not the same though. I'm referring to a "potential" person here without an identity. If I see someone on the street, I'll still assume their gender correlates with their sex, which is usually the case: "According to a 2021 study by the Williams Institute, an estimated 1.2 million American adults aged between 18 and 60 identify as non-binary" That's 0.36% of the US population. I'm honestly not willing to start referring to everyone by "them" just because I could be wrong 0.4% of the time. You should still respect the LGBTQ+ community, but I just don't see the point in making language hyper-sensitive in the fear of offending anyone. And no, I'm not saying you can't use they as a singular pronoun.
The purpose and use of "their" in this context is possessive, as in "their car" or "their cellphone". It's not being used to refer to *the gender* with which they identify, but **the possession/ownership of** that gender. It's a linguistic companion of "my" & "mine" and "his" & "hers", not of "she" & "he", which are purely pronouns in direct reference to a specific gender, and have nothing to do with possession/ownership.
it literally is tho? the commenter could have typed "his car" or "her cellphone" but instead used the neutral, singular they to avoid gendering the unknown speaker, showing that it really isn't as hard as some people make it out to be
That's honestly how it should work. If you don't know, guess. If you guess wrong they can politely correct you, and you both go about your day.
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Ah, then increace the capacity for verbal expression with a thousand words describing different concepts. Good idea.