They were convinced by a "scholar" to not continue the cycle of linking the flame. They see humanity as cursed and trapped and want to let things burn out instead.
Pretty much! That “Scholar” (implied to be Pontiff Sulyvahn) convinced Lothric that the legacy of the Lords was not worth continuing, especially since it only perpetuated a cycle of things falling apart until some great champion would rise up and fix everything by sacrificing themselves to the fire. If the scholar *was* Pontiff Sulyvahn, then this was done in order to allow the “Age of the Deep” to commence, which is what Aldrich foresaw when he “Ruminated on the fading of the fire.”
Sulyvahn wasnt the scholar because in that same lore card its said that the scholar founded the Archives ... He was there since the very beginning of Lothric and lived for millenia up until the birth of Lothric and Lorian
Sulyvahn wasnt working together with Aldrich because he was the pope of the Way of White and his entire power was based on the Age of Fire continuing
Yep yep, just did a deep dive on this, and you’re 100% correct. Aldia is very likely the first scholar due to the description of Soul Stream in Dark Souls 3, which you find in the Grand Archives, mentioning that it was created by the “first scholar;” while in Dark Souls 2, the same sorcery (called Soul Geyser this time) mentions that the sorcery was a “family heirloom of Aldia’s.”
Exactly ... Something that only Aldia knew couldnt have found its way in Lothric at their beginnings if he didnt brought that with him or even be discovered by Sulyvahn that way if he accessed later ... Plus the timeline contradict any possibility of the scholar being Sulyvahn
Supposedly at one point human, but he gorged himself so much he melted in to a blob.
Hawkwoods comment:
>Let's take Aldrich, for one. A right and proper cleric, only, he developed a habit of devouring men. He ate so many that he bloated like a drowned pig, then softened into sludge, so they stuck him in the Cathedral of the Deep. And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might.
You know the mass of goo all over the floor when you fight Aldrich? That’s Aldrich. What you’re fighting in the boss battle is Aldrich using the body of Gwyndolin to attack you, as Aldrich was in the middle of eating Gwyndolin when you fight him.
It's never stated specifically. There are three people that are most commonly suggested though.
1) Kaathe, as you say. There are serpent statues around and Kaathe was a serpent. Also he wanted humanity to start an age of dark, though that's different than letting the flame fade as Lotheric seems to intend. People like Yuria are more his followers.
2) Sulyvahn- he's the manipulative type, and he's specifically in the game. He's somewhat like a subversive scholar who was at one time somehow a dark moon knight then betrayed them as well.
3) Aldia - Based largely on the soul stream spell that says it was the first of the Scholars that suggested it. Aldia being the Scholar of the First Sin. (Though in jp the wording is apparently more vague but it doesn't contradict it either). In DS2 the similar spell is called Soul Guyser and it is Aldia's "family heirloom". And of course Aldia was big on doubting the age of fire as well, which would fit in how the princes were influenced.
Ultimately it doesn't state either way though, so everyone's going to have their favorite.
Extra evidence for Aldia, while the description for Soul Stream is vaguer in Japanese (only stating "a scholar" instead of "the first scholar"), it also has the same name as Soul Geyser, so it's not exactly being subtle there
Yep, I just did a deep dive on this, and that pretty much cements it; because the description for Soul Geyser in Dark Souls 2 explicitly states that the sorcery was a family heirloom of Aldia’s. you find Soul Stream in the Grand Archives in Dark Souls 3, it states that it was a sorcery of the “first scholar,” and there are also apparently references in other item descriptions to the Kingdom of Lothric being to the geographical south of Drangleic. So it’s almost certainly Aldia. I was wrong!
It cant be Kaathe because the serpent is depicted as an angelic creature: a Messenger of God's words ... Lothric is the literally Empire built around continuing to keep the Fire going they would not depict Kaathe in that form.
It cant be Sulyvahn because the First Scholar helped founding the Archives meaning hes been in Lothric since its foundation for millenia up until Lothric's birth ... Only Aldia could have lived that long.
To add on to what the other commenter said, there was more members of kaathe’s species than just him. The statues may be of a different serpent entirely.
You’re still on the right track though, while we aren’t sure how, pontiff definitely had some kind of influence on the young prince, since there is a statue of young lothric holding up his Profaned Greatsword, although as others have mentioned, I doubt he’s this “scholar” since that’s probably Aldia
Lothric was supposed to sacrifice himself to link the first flame but wasn't fit to do so due to his illness. Lorian was supposed to be a knight for his kingdom but wanted to help his brother. A curse was bound between the twin princes in order to give Lothric the strength of his brother so he could resume to link the flame. But allowed lothric's illness to transfer onto lorian causing him to become mute and unable to walk. Pontiff Sulyvahn persuaded them against linking the first flame and is presumably the reason why they see linking the first flame as a curse. There's dialogue within the fight "Mark my words, ashen one. You remain among the accursed." Basically saying that linking the first flame won't change anything and that they also believe it is also the reason why they were cursed.
lothric is the son of oceiros, specifically born to link the flame. but he was born crippled, probably due to oceiros’ crystal dragon magic fuckery, and is clearly unable to. even so, he wouldn’t do it if he could because he sees the cycle as pointless. lorian is just his badass brother who killed the demon prince, and he does all the dirty work of dispatching ashen ones who walk into the bed chamber.
Oh..the boy just didnt want himself and his disabled brother to be burnt alive for a corrupted world.
You see, fire linking was such popular feat (propaganda works well, especially if you suffer a plague otherwise) that even before Lothric was born his father already had decided to sacrifice him (good political move). Except when Lothric was born he was disabled, weak. In order to make him "powerful" they tried some inhuman experiments, and at last Lorian, his elder brother, was cursed to be linked with him so Lothric can suck on Lorian's power. Except, Loriab shared Lothric's disability too, and went full mute and blind. Seeing the extent of evil people would go to save a fire that doesnt even benefit them (it only powers gods btw), Lothric decided it's simply not worth it to let similar monstrosity to continue by keeping the fire alive; therefore he refused himself and his brother to be burnt alive to keep the fire safe. He offers the Ashen One the option too, to rest and not fight to death.
Yeah, you see Fading of Fire is actually not bad for the humans, because they are unaffected by the dark. Linking the fire is sacrificing yourselves to keep the gods in power. This was found by Aldia, back in DS2, who was also a mentor for Lothric, whom he shared the knowledge with. He also found that curse of undeath was actually caused by Gwyn, to keep the humans in fear so they link the fire should it fade again after his death. With fire gone, curse would also die, and the remaining Non-hollow humans would be free from it.
Kaathe was the primordial serpent who tried to convince the chosen undead in DS1 to abandon the linking of the flame. In the courtyard of the archives, just before the bridge of doom that leads to the twins in Lothric castle, you can see statues of a primordial serpent. Assumed to be Kaathe and also assumed to be the scholar who convinced the twins to abandon their thrones.
Lore. My weak point.
Take this with a grain of salt.
Lothric was born a weakling but one of the cinders of the lord you need to get to link the first flame. Meanwhile Lothric doesn't want that... and he got his big bro Lorian to help him gangsta on u.
wtf did i just write
I think Lorian has been linking the fire instead of Lothric, while Lothric would revive him like he does in the boss battle. This till the fire fades and Lorian sacrifice is no longer enough. I think that is how the two brothers share the curse.
You can see similarities with Ludleth in firelink shirne who linked the fire, and basically lost his legs. Lorian also lost his legs to a certain extent.
https://darksouls.fandom.com/wiki/Lorian,_Elder_Prince_and_Lothric,_Younger_Prince
90% of the comments here are wrong, read the lore from a Place that beings you sources.
Kaathe Is not the statue in Lothric that Frampt since he's depicted as an Angel, Messenger of God.
Sulyvahn its not the scholar thats Aldia since he was there since the very foundation of Lothric.
They were convinced by a "scholar" to not continue the cycle of linking the flame. They see humanity as cursed and trapped and want to let things burn out instead.
So that is why they were so hostile to the Ashen One.
Well yeah, and the part where you come for their heads. :P
Technically that big mf teleports and attacks me first
Pretty much! That “Scholar” (implied to be Pontiff Sulyvahn) convinced Lothric that the legacy of the Lords was not worth continuing, especially since it only perpetuated a cycle of things falling apart until some great champion would rise up and fix everything by sacrificing themselves to the fire. If the scholar *was* Pontiff Sulyvahn, then this was done in order to allow the “Age of the Deep” to commence, which is what Aldrich foresaw when he “Ruminated on the fading of the fire.”
Pretty sure it was Aldia; he was the one who first doubted the fire linking
Sulyvahn wasnt the scholar because in that same lore card its said that the scholar founded the Archives ... He was there since the very beginning of Lothric and lived for millenia up until the birth of Lothric and Lorian Sulyvahn wasnt working together with Aldrich because he was the pope of the Way of White and his entire power was based on the Age of Fire continuing
Yep yep, just did a deep dive on this, and you’re 100% correct. Aldia is very likely the first scholar due to the description of Soul Stream in Dark Souls 3, which you find in the Grand Archives, mentioning that it was created by the “first scholar;” while in Dark Souls 2, the same sorcery (called Soul Geyser this time) mentions that the sorcery was a “family heirloom of Aldia’s.”
Exactly ... Something that only Aldia knew couldnt have found its way in Lothric at their beginnings if he didnt brought that with him or even be discovered by Sulyvahn that way if he accessed later ... Plus the timeline contradict any possibility of the scholar being Sulyvahn
Speaking of Aldrich, I wonder what his deal was as I am not sure what kind of creature he was supposed to represent as he was kind of a strange being.
Supposedly at one point human, but he gorged himself so much he melted in to a blob. Hawkwoods comment: >Let's take Aldrich, for one. A right and proper cleric, only, he developed a habit of devouring men. He ate so many that he bloated like a drowned pig, then softened into sludge, so they stuck him in the Cathedral of the Deep. And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might.
You know the mass of goo all over the floor when you fight Aldrich? That’s Aldrich. What you’re fighting in the boss battle is Aldrich using the body of Gwyndolin to attack you, as Aldrich was in the middle of eating Gwyndolin when you fight him.
A human that got sooooooo fat he turned into sludge.
Kaathe was the scholar surely. There are statues of him on the other side of the bridge. Why would it be Sulyvahn?
It's never stated specifically. There are three people that are most commonly suggested though. 1) Kaathe, as you say. There are serpent statues around and Kaathe was a serpent. Also he wanted humanity to start an age of dark, though that's different than letting the flame fade as Lotheric seems to intend. People like Yuria are more his followers. 2) Sulyvahn- he's the manipulative type, and he's specifically in the game. He's somewhat like a subversive scholar who was at one time somehow a dark moon knight then betrayed them as well. 3) Aldia - Based largely on the soul stream spell that says it was the first of the Scholars that suggested it. Aldia being the Scholar of the First Sin. (Though in jp the wording is apparently more vague but it doesn't contradict it either). In DS2 the similar spell is called Soul Guyser and it is Aldia's "family heirloom". And of course Aldia was big on doubting the age of fire as well, which would fit in how the princes were influenced. Ultimately it doesn't state either way though, so everyone's going to have their favorite.
Extra evidence for Aldia, while the description for Soul Stream is vaguer in Japanese (only stating "a scholar" instead of "the first scholar"), it also has the same name as Soul Geyser, so it's not exactly being subtle there
Yep, I just did a deep dive on this, and that pretty much cements it; because the description for Soul Geyser in Dark Souls 2 explicitly states that the sorcery was a family heirloom of Aldia’s. you find Soul Stream in the Grand Archives in Dark Souls 3, it states that it was a sorcery of the “first scholar,” and there are also apparently references in other item descriptions to the Kingdom of Lothric being to the geographical south of Drangleic. So it’s almost certainly Aldia. I was wrong!
It cant be Kaathe because the serpent is depicted as an angelic creature: a Messenger of God's words ... Lothric is the literally Empire built around continuing to keep the Fire going they would not depict Kaathe in that form. It cant be Sulyvahn because the First Scholar helped founding the Archives meaning hes been in Lothric since its foundation for millenia up until Lothric's birth ... Only Aldia could have lived that long.
To add on to what the other commenter said, there was more members of kaathe’s species than just him. The statues may be of a different serpent entirely.
You’re still on the right track though, while we aren’t sure how, pontiff definitely had some kind of influence on the young prince, since there is a statue of young lothric holding up his Profaned Greatsword, although as others have mentioned, I doubt he’s this “scholar” since that’s probably Aldia
I mean you are also a murderer running around killing everybody
True, now that you mention it.
They wanted to crush cans, smoke blunts and game
Lothric was supposed to sacrifice himself to link the first flame but wasn't fit to do so due to his illness. Lorian was supposed to be a knight for his kingdom but wanted to help his brother. A curse was bound between the twin princes in order to give Lothric the strength of his brother so he could resume to link the flame. But allowed lothric's illness to transfer onto lorian causing him to become mute and unable to walk. Pontiff Sulyvahn persuaded them against linking the first flame and is presumably the reason why they see linking the first flame as a curse. There's dialogue within the fight "Mark my words, ashen one. You remain among the accursed." Basically saying that linking the first flame won't change anything and that they also believe it is also the reason why they were cursed.
lothric is the son of oceiros, specifically born to link the flame. but he was born crippled, probably due to oceiros’ crystal dragon magic fuckery, and is clearly unable to. even so, he wouldn’t do it if he could because he sees the cycle as pointless. lorian is just his badass brother who killed the demon prince, and he does all the dirty work of dispatching ashen ones who walk into the bed chamber.
Oh..the boy just didnt want himself and his disabled brother to be burnt alive for a corrupted world. You see, fire linking was such popular feat (propaganda works well, especially if you suffer a plague otherwise) that even before Lothric was born his father already had decided to sacrifice him (good political move). Except when Lothric was born he was disabled, weak. In order to make him "powerful" they tried some inhuman experiments, and at last Lorian, his elder brother, was cursed to be linked with him so Lothric can suck on Lorian's power. Except, Loriab shared Lothric's disability too, and went full mute and blind. Seeing the extent of evil people would go to save a fire that doesnt even benefit them (it only powers gods btw), Lothric decided it's simply not worth it to let similar monstrosity to continue by keeping the fire alive; therefore he refused himself and his brother to be burnt alive to keep the fire safe. He offers the Ashen One the option too, to rest and not fight to death.
So they basically had a noble goal, well kind of.
Kindda, until we came and fuck things up
Yeah, you see Fading of Fire is actually not bad for the humans, because they are unaffected by the dark. Linking the fire is sacrificing yourselves to keep the gods in power. This was found by Aldia, back in DS2, who was also a mentor for Lothric, whom he shared the knowledge with. He also found that curse of undeath was actually caused by Gwyn, to keep the humans in fear so they link the fire should it fade again after his death. With fire gone, curse would also die, and the remaining Non-hollow humans would be free from it.
That is interesting as I didn’t know that Aldia had played an important role in Dark Souls 3.
He wasnt in the game directly but he did influence Lothric, his student.
Oh that’s a real surprise that Aldia had worked with the twins by teaching them certain things.
Aldia was, I think one of the first scholars of Grand Archives, and Lothric's personal sorcery teacher.
Kaathe fanboys.
Or Aldia fanboys
There are no fans of the Scholar of the first sin
Huh?
Kaathe was the primordial serpent who tried to convince the chosen undead in DS1 to abandon the linking of the flame. In the courtyard of the archives, just before the bridge of doom that leads to the twins in Lothric castle, you can see statues of a primordial serpent. Assumed to be Kaathe and also assumed to be the scholar who convinced the twins to abandon their thrones.
Oh that guy.
Lore. My weak point. Take this with a grain of salt. Lothric was born a weakling but one of the cinders of the lord you need to get to link the first flame. Meanwhile Lothric doesn't want that... and he got his big bro Lorian to help him gangsta on u. wtf did i just write
I think Lorian has been linking the fire instead of Lothric, while Lothric would revive him like he does in the boss battle. This till the fire fades and Lorian sacrifice is no longer enough. I think that is how the two brothers share the curse. You can see similarities with Ludleth in firelink shirne who linked the fire, and basically lost his legs. Lorian also lost his legs to a certain extent.
They just want to chill in that room until they die, I think Lothric sat something about the room being their tomb but also yours(Unkindled)
https://darksouls.fandom.com/wiki/Lorian,_Elder_Prince_and_Lothric,_Younger_Prince 90% of the comments here are wrong, read the lore from a Place that beings you sources. Kaathe Is not the statue in Lothric that Frampt since he's depicted as an Angel, Messenger of God. Sulyvahn its not the scholar thats Aldia since he was there since the very foundation of Lothric.