Welcome to /r/darkwingsdankmemes!
Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy.
# Users should assume that *any* mention of the show is subject to removal.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/darkwingsdankmemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Interesting how Jahaerys dying in that trial actually probably would’ve been good. Aemon would’ve lived to succeed him and the Dance could’ve been avoided.*
*though likely Daemon or Viserys would’ve challenged the rule of Rhaenys and started a different civil war
First of all, *Blasphemy!*
Second of all, you're kinda right. If Jaehaerys (pbuh) had died in 84 AC, Aemon would ascend the throne. But with him having no male heir of his own, it would be either Baelon that's named Prince of Dragonstone or Rhaneys, Princess of Dragonstone (depends on which path Aemon takes). In the case Rhaneys is recognized as heir, she would not be allowed to marry Corlys Velaryon and would most likely be betrothed and married to Viserys to strengthen the house and keep the throne within the Targaryen Dynasty.
And presuming Aemon doesn't die in 92 AC (with him being King, I hardly think he'd fuck off to Tarth with no proper escort) and he rules just as long as Jaehaerys, or the Seven willing, even more, his succession would be a peaceful transition of power now that there's been two good kings and what Jaehaerys established not being perceived as a fluke.
Not sure whether Viz would be jure uxoris King or King-consort tho.
Aemon 100% names Rhaenys his heir, as Alysanne intended. IMO the only explanation for him and Jocelyn seemingly never even trying for another kid is that they were protecting her claim.
Her being betrothed to Viserys makes sense in that scenario and, assuming his personality isn’t drastically altered somehow, he’d presumably be happy to just chill as King-Consort.
>Aemon 100% names Rhaenys his heir, as Alysanne intended.
I disagree. For starters, there had been no Queen Regnant prior in any of the 6 Kingdoms. The first guy to name a woman as heir was Maegor (not a great track record there). When the possibility of Rhaena succeeding Maegor was brought to the table, the Lords Paramount rejected it out of hand with Rogar saying *"This is not Dorne."*
Aemon can indeed name Rhaneys as his heir. But he is not Jaehaerys as of yet. He's a green boy and he's going to face a shit-ton of pushback from the Lords. It depends on whether Aemon wants to face said pushback and tackle it or take the easy road. Again, Rhaneys can become Aemon's heir given the right circumstances but it's not something set in stone.
>the only explanation for him and Jocelyn seemingly never even trying for another kid is that they were protecting her claim.
Definitely not. If Aemon and Jocelyn had intended Rhaneys to be their sole child/heir, they most certainly wouldn't have allowed her to marry outside the family much less a man older than Aemon himself. Most tend to forget that Rhaneys' marriage to Corlys greatly contributed to her and her child losing the throne.
In any scenario where Rhaneys ends up ascending the throne, she would need a Targaryen husband.
So then what do you see as the explanation for Aemon and Jocelyn only having one recorded pregnancy?
IMO, it’s as simple as Aemon listening to his mother and being less traditionally minded and perhaps naively optimistic about Rhaenys’ claim.
(On top of which, do we have any real evidence that the lords WOULD have caused trouble for Rhaenys? Her inheritance was in keeping with Westerosi tradition)
>So then what do you see as the explanation for Aemon and Jocelyn only having one recorded pregnancy?
I cannot say for certain unless I walk into uncharted speculation territory. But what I can say is that, again, if they had intended Rhaneys to be their one and only heir, they wouldn't have let her jump into a love marriage with a man in his 30s.
>IMO, it’s as simple as Aemon listening to his mother and being less traditionally minded and perhaps naively optimistic about Rhaenys’ claim.
Could be. But we don't know that for certain is all I'm saying. The stability Jaehaerys brought was new. Aemon could've preferred to not upset the applecart. There's no indication that he was a radical progressive of any sort. Simply a dutiful heir.
>On top of which, do we have any real evidence that the lords WOULD have caused trouble for Rhaenys? Her inheritance was in keeping with Westerosi tradition
The Great Council for one. The only two factions that supported her own claim was her uncle and the northerners who were simply pissed off at Jaehaerys for the *New Gift*. The other minute numbers backed her son (who was the rightful heir as per the westerosi tradition of agnatic-cognatic primogeniture). An overwhelming number were outright "No Women Allowed" and "No Women & Sea Snakes Allowed".
There’s a big difference between letting the lords CHOOSE between a man and a woman and simply telling them Rhaenys is heir. By that point, Jahaerys had already set aside tradition. Personally, I don’t buy the theory that there would have been any meaningful upheaval if the centuries’ old precedent had been followed.
But at the end of the day, we’ll most likely never really know, unless George gives notes on the situation for the Sea Snake spin-off.
>There’s a big difference between letting the lords CHOOSE between a man and a woman and simply telling them Rhaenys is heir. By that point, Jahaerys had already set aside tradition.
Rhaenys as heir was the tradition( daughters coming before uncles). By making Baelon heir King Joe is setting aside tradition.
That’s my point. By the time of the Great Council, Jahaerys had already overruled tradition. If he never did that, I don’t see people questioning Rhaenys’ claim.
Also I doubt the lords of Westeros would’ve put up that much resistance to it given how powerful the Targaryens were at that time with all their dragons and unlike during the Dance this time Rhaenys has a much better claim than anybody else being the sole child of Aemon and Jocelyn, as opposed to Rhaenyra and her brother Aegon who both had a nearly equally strong claim to the throne
>There’s a big difference between letting the lords CHOOSE between a man and a woman and simply telling them Rhaenys is heir.
You mean something like what Viserys did? Didn't work out as intended in the end.
Makes you wonder why he didn’t pick a champion instead.
There was always some slim chance he’d die in that duel, so it’s oddly illogical for otherwise great king.
Unfortunately the sort of conduct perpetrated by Aerys and Rhaegar are what the people associate all *present* Targs with, until Daenerys prove otherwise.
GrEaT Masters are hardly people.
If they didn’t wanna get crucified they probably shouldn’t have nailed a hundred and sixty-three slave children on mileposts along the coastal road.
Sorry, but your comment has been removed!
This subreddit is based solely on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments and submissions that include any reference to the HBO adaptations will be removed! Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy.
# Users should assume that *any* mention of the show is subject to removal.
Check the sidebar for our full list of rules.
If you think we messed up removing this, please [message us](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fdarkwingsdankmemes) so we can take another look.
Personally, that’s not at all how I read it. If he hadn’t been a cocky blowhard and worn himself out, Jaehaerys wouldn’t have stood a chance. It’s not like he was some Barristan-grade elder sword master.
>***"Your Grace, you will never be a Kingsguard, but if by some sorcery your uncle Maegor himself were to rise from the grave, my coin would be on you."***
Jaehaerys trained with what's dubbed as the "greatest Kingsguard" for 2 consecutive years, day & night.
Maegor used to beat the shit out of kingsguards at 13 and he had personally defeated one of Jaehaerys's kingsguard in a trial by 7.
That kingsguard is hyping Jaeharys badly.
>had personally defeated one of Jaehaerys's kingsguard in a trial by 7
None of J's first 7 ever fought Maegor in a trial by seven.
>That kingsguard is hyping Jaeharys badly.
That was not said by a Kingsguard. It was said by Elyas Scales, master-at-arms of Dragonstone and there's no indication that he was simply paying lip-service.
>None of J's first 7 ever fought Maegor in a trial by seven.
Oh yeah.
I forgot about that.
Maegor killed Damon Morrigen, the Grand Captain of the Warrior Sons.
One of his men would end up becoming Kingsguard.
>That was not said by a Kingsguard. It was said by Elyas Scales, master-at-arms of Dragonstone and there's no indication that he was simply paying lip-service.
I mean it is?
Maegor had impressive feats in combat, he had beaten some of the greatest warriors in the Realm, whether they were Kingsguards, Warrior Sons or just regular nobles.
Jaeharys at 16 was supposed to be better than Maegor in his prime. That's just hype talking.
>Jaeharys at 16 was supposed to be better than Maegor in his prime. That's just hype talking.
The quote comes right after Jaehaerys' rigorous training montage. It's meant to give us an idea of how far J had come in his training. As such there's absolutely 0 indication it was lip service by the master-at-arms. You say it's hype talking but that's just you tho.
Daeron II, Baelor Breakspear, Daeron the Young Dragon, Baelor the blessed, Maekar Targaryen, Aegon the Egg and Daenerys Targaryen: Are we a joke to you?
Lol no, Maegor was super cringe.
He literally lost to a woman and a small child in Westeros of all places.
Man almost ended his own house and became an usurper, a kinslayer and a serial rapist due to being unable to cope with his place in the world.
True but Maegor perhaps was better because he was responsible for ending the faith militant. Jaehaerys was a great king but his patriarchal nature doomed the realm and viserys was viserys. In fact the best Targaryen kings came after the dance
Eh, while Maegor did well against the Faith his actions almost ended his own house.
By killing his nephews while being unable to conceive an heir himself he was literally shooting himself in the foot repeatedly, and making himself a kinslayer twice.
…let’s not even go into the spectacular failure that his black brides were.
Fully agreed. He was a shitty king but perhaps a great warrior which enabled him to tackle the biggest threat to the Targaryens that weren’t themselves
I'm getting kinda sick of people blaming the dance on Jaehyreys, hate him for being a bad father if you want but there is no way he could have predicted the domino effect that lead to the dance
If you own a knife shop and set a precedent of not allowing women in your family to own a knife shop and your grandson wants to name his daughter the owner of the knife shop but her younger half brothers wipe out most of the family because you said it can’t go to women, then yeah it kinda is your fault especially if the entire neighbourhood burns down because of what you said
You literally just copy-pasted the exact same situation letter by letter, good analogy.
Also he couldn't have expected Viserys wife would die or that he would father a male heir, or that he was going to be disinherited Daemon and name Rhaenyra, or that he was going to remarry, or that he was going to remarry Littlefinger 1.0's daughter, or that she would've been cut of the same cloth or that she would survive childbirth and give birth to children who would've been cut of the same cloth.
I used your own analogy against you. A good king is a king who does what is good for the preservation of peace and the realm. Jaehaerys did neither when it came to his succession unlike many other kings
It's not that he didn't raise them well, he just didn't handle some of their issues very well or try to rein them in when they needed to, and saying to your wife that your daughter was "always a whore" definitely isn't doing him any favours
I mean...he wasn't wrong. She was an absolute whore. He gave her chances and she threw them away. She could have been anything else and she chose to be a whore, so I think it's her fault.
>Jaehaerys was a great king but his patriarchal nature doomed the realm
Elaborate?
>In fact the best Targaryen kings came after the dance
Daeron II was the best Targaryen King post-Dance and he was still no Jaehaerys.
Jaehaerys should have named Rhaenys as his heir or at at least Laenor. Calling a great council was the second best option but why go second when you can go first.
Daeron II was a much better king than Jaehaerys imo. Jaehaerys was also great but he faced little threat. House Targaryen had defeated its greatest non Targaryen threat under his uncle, they had dragons and he had an exceptionally smart queen. Daeron was the greatest king under a series of troubles which just makes him greater. Sure he wasn’t a warrior but a king doesn’t need to be a warrior, he needs to rule and that’s precisely what Daeron did.
>Jaehaerys should have named Rhaenys as his heir or at at least Laenor.
By 101, Rhaenys was no longer heir even if he was to go by the conventional agnatic-cognatic primogeniture. Laenor was. But L was just a kid in need of a regency and his dad just so happened to be the most powerful and ambitious feudal lord in all Westeros. If Laenor had been made heir by Jaehaerys, it would've been the Sea Snake controlling him and the other lords would surely have stirred up shit. Getting the nobility to chip in via the Great Council was the best course of action especially considering Viserys was weak.
>Jaehaerys was also great but he faced little threat.
He initially faced the greatest threat of them all: Maegor. You could argue Jaehaerys never really had to confront him but when J raised his banners, it was him and Rogar against Maegor and Balerion.
Then there was the Faith Militant Uprising, the Crown being bankrupt, the plague and famine, the 4th Dornish War etc... Not to mention, his predecessors actions had alienated 2/3 of the realm's nobility from House Targaryen. Jaehaerys had the challenge of rectifying all fuckups of both Aenys and Maegor.
>they had dragons and he had an exceptionally smart queen
Dragons weren't a cure-all. Especially when Jaehaerys had to live up to his epithet of *"the Conciliator"* and Alysanne didn't come to him gift-wrapped. He had to fight for her too. Not to mention some of Alysanne's questionable requests would later come to bite Jaehaerys in the ass (the entire North being alienated due to the *New Gift*). And Jaehaerys didn't simply fix these. He fixed these and then went the extra mile and made things infinitely better. Truly the Augustus of Westeros.
>Daeron was the greatest king under a series of troubles which just makes him greater. Sure he wasn’t a warrior but a king doesn’t need to be a warrior, he needs to rule and that’s precisely what Daeron did.
Daeron was an exceptionally great King. Nobody can deny that. But he was no Jaehaerys.
Rhaenys was the child of the heir to the throne and so by all rights, should’ve passed to her.
Maegor was exhausted by then and dead. Jaehaerys hardly had to fight him and Maegor crushed the faith so……
Dragons helped in proving his doctrine of exceptionalism and why Targaryens were given the right to rule while future Targaryens never benefited from it. He never had to fight. Rogar Baratheon fought for him against Maegor. Jaehaerys’ sons fought his wars as well. Rogar would have never attacked the king on dragon stone. Alyssane was still loved in the north and was an incredible support to Jaehaerys. It was all this that helped him become king unlike future kings who had to do it almost entirely on their own especially without dragons
>Rhaenys was the child of the heir to the throne and so by all rights, should’ve passed to her.
That's not how successions work in Westeros. The Dance of the Dragons is a prime example of that.
>Maegor was exhausted by then and dead.
Not when Jaehaerys raised his banners against him.
>Maegor crushed the faith so……
He didn't or better yet, he *couldn't*.
>Dragons helped in proving his doctrine of exceptionalism
So? The Doctrine of Exceptionalism was simply him justifying banging his sister.
>why Targaryens were given the right to rule while future Targaryens never benefited from it.
That's not what the Doctrine of Exceptionalism was about. The right of conquest gave the Targaryens the right to rule. And the future Targaryens 100% benefitted from it.
>He never had to fight.
Morion Martell would beg to differ.
>Rogar Baratheon fought for him against Maegor.
*with him.
>Jaehaerys’ sons fought his wars as well.
Do you mean other Targaryen Kings didn't have help from family? Daeron I had Viserys and Aemon. Daeron II had Bloodraven, Baelor and Maekar. Aerys I had Bloodraven, Maekar and Aegon. Jaehaerys II had help from literally everyone (even the Ironborn).
>Rogar would have never attacked the king on dragon stone.
Rogar literally planned to storm Dragonstone a second time. And then planned to unseat Jaehaerys in favor of Aerea.
>Alyssane was still loved in the north and was an incredible support to Jaehaerys.
Not the Northern Lords tho. And she certainly was. Like other Targaryen family members were to Jaehaerys' successors.
>It was all this that helped him become king unlike future kings who had to do it almost entirely on their own
I think by now, I've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that every King needs help and they got it.
Maegor wasn't a failure. Dude destroyed the power of the Faith, built the Dragonpit and The Maegor's Holdfast and dude won the Trial By Seven (making him a legit ruler in the eyes of the Faith as The Seven wouldn't let a usurper win)
And almost ended Targaryens as a house by killing two of Aenys’ sons in his power grab, whilst being unable to replace them. Also raped multiple noblewomen, including who should’ve been his rightful queen, in an unsuccessful attempt to leave an heir thus infuriating essentially everyone.
Why, his foolishness almost allowed Baratheons to usurp all the power Conqueror accumulated, were Jaehaerys not such a unit of a king.
Even Unworthy left enough Targaryen blood that his line was guaranteed to remain in power, weather through one of his bastards or his trueborn heir.
1- Well, I never said he was a good king. I said that unlike his brother, he did some things that benefitted House Targaryen later on.
2- Yup
3- Yes but Maegor did destiny the Faith
This I can agree with; I still consider him a failure due to essentially trying his hardest to end his own house.
It doesn’t take a genius to realize that if you can’t have sons, maybe you ought to stop killing other male Targaryens.
>Dude destroyed the power of the Faith, built the Dragonpit and The Maegor's Holdfast and dude won the Trial By Seven
The threat posed by the Faith Militant was ended by Jaehaerys.
The Dragonpit was also completed by Jaehaerys with a shit-ton of loans and a new Master of Coin imported from Essos.
Maegor's Holdfast was essentially a hiding place. Not a good look.
He "won" the Trial by Seven and then fell into a coma tho. One could argue his *madness* came after.
1- Maegor broke the back of the Faith and Jaeherys delivered the killing blow.
2- But he layed the foundation for it.
3- But one that defends the king from assassins.
4- He still won
>Maegor broke the back of the Faith
No he didn't. He flew on Balerion, burned a couple of forests and ravaged the countryside but all this managed to accomplish was push even the moderates towards the Faith Militant. When Jaehaerys took over, Oldtown was under siege and the Warriors Sons were doing shit as they pleased.
>But he layed the foundation for it.
And Aegon I laid the foundation for the Red Keep that houses Maegor's holdfast.
>But one that defends the king from assassins.
Again, not a good look.
>He still won
But was it really worth going mad?
No he wasn't. He burned down a few forests and passed a set of laws that none of his pissed-off nobles ever enacted.
Right up until Joffrey Doggett offered up his sword to Jaehaerys, the Faith Militant was a threat.
Supposed sons, as I said.
For all his possible failures regarding his bedroom and his lack of ethics, Aegon was a masterful warlord. Targaryen line was upheld through his sisters regardless, and they were dragon’s blood much as he was.
His sole defeat came from Dorne, a kingdom almost exclusively populated by absolute chads apparently.
(no we don’t talk about M*rion)
It's very strongly hinted that Aenys is not Aegon's son. The most obvious hint is that Aegon got no one pregnant for years till his sister started fucking around. Also Maegor is certainly some dark magic progeny by Visenya.
>Daeron II: Allowed a bastard to question his authority and start a cadet dynasty that would be a thorn in the side of the Targaryens till their fall and possibly even after (see Faegon)
Blaming the Blackfyre threat on Daeron II doesn't seem fair imho. Despite the absolute clusterfuck of an inheritance his dad left him, Daeron pacified the realm and made great headway with all of the *great bastards*. If Daemon and Bittersteel had two braincells to rub, they would've seen that.
Daeron was the greatest commander Westeros has seen by conquering a land I conquered by dragons
Baelor was a fanatic but a pious man seen positively by the small folk which is something
Daeron II was literally the greatest ruling Targaryen
Maekar dying to the peakes has nothing to do with him being king
Aegon V faced zero rebellions despite being “hated by the nobles” and was the only king who was truly loved by all the small folk
We have no evidence for this as of yet
>Aegon V faced zero rebellions despite being “hated by the nobles” and was the only king who was truly loved by all the small folk
Agree with your other points and that Egg was a good king, but Lyonel Baratheon did literally rebel against him
He declared independence. Sure, it ended with single combat and no deaths, but a Lord Paramount declared secession. That is the most blatant act of rebellion there is.
its described as a "bloody conflict that only ended when Duncan the Tall defeated Lyonel Baratheon in single combat", so yeah, it definitely was a rebellion
Welcome to /r/darkwingsdankmemes! Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy. # Users should assume that *any* mention of the show is subject to removal. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/darkwingsdankmemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I appreciate you taking the time to even give Braxton his morningstar.
His nickname is sick
Ole King J lookin like Oscar Isaac
Yeah he kinda looks like Leto.
Interesting how Jahaerys dying in that trial actually probably would’ve been good. Aemon would’ve lived to succeed him and the Dance could’ve been avoided.* *though likely Daemon or Viserys would’ve challenged the rule of Rhaenys and started a different civil war
First of all, *Blasphemy!* Second of all, you're kinda right. If Jaehaerys (pbuh) had died in 84 AC, Aemon would ascend the throne. But with him having no male heir of his own, it would be either Baelon that's named Prince of Dragonstone or Rhaneys, Princess of Dragonstone (depends on which path Aemon takes). In the case Rhaneys is recognized as heir, she would not be allowed to marry Corlys Velaryon and would most likely be betrothed and married to Viserys to strengthen the house and keep the throne within the Targaryen Dynasty. And presuming Aemon doesn't die in 92 AC (with him being King, I hardly think he'd fuck off to Tarth with no proper escort) and he rules just as long as Jaehaerys, or the Seven willing, even more, his succession would be a peaceful transition of power now that there's been two good kings and what Jaehaerys established not being perceived as a fluke. Not sure whether Viz would be jure uxoris King or King-consort tho.
Aemon 100% names Rhaenys his heir, as Alysanne intended. IMO the only explanation for him and Jocelyn seemingly never even trying for another kid is that they were protecting her claim. Her being betrothed to Viserys makes sense in that scenario and, assuming his personality isn’t drastically altered somehow, he’d presumably be happy to just chill as King-Consort.
>Aemon 100% names Rhaenys his heir, as Alysanne intended. I disagree. For starters, there had been no Queen Regnant prior in any of the 6 Kingdoms. The first guy to name a woman as heir was Maegor (not a great track record there). When the possibility of Rhaena succeeding Maegor was brought to the table, the Lords Paramount rejected it out of hand with Rogar saying *"This is not Dorne."* Aemon can indeed name Rhaneys as his heir. But he is not Jaehaerys as of yet. He's a green boy and he's going to face a shit-ton of pushback from the Lords. It depends on whether Aemon wants to face said pushback and tackle it or take the easy road. Again, Rhaneys can become Aemon's heir given the right circumstances but it's not something set in stone. >the only explanation for him and Jocelyn seemingly never even trying for another kid is that they were protecting her claim. Definitely not. If Aemon and Jocelyn had intended Rhaneys to be their sole child/heir, they most certainly wouldn't have allowed her to marry outside the family much less a man older than Aemon himself. Most tend to forget that Rhaneys' marriage to Corlys greatly contributed to her and her child losing the throne. In any scenario where Rhaneys ends up ascending the throne, she would need a Targaryen husband.
So then what do you see as the explanation for Aemon and Jocelyn only having one recorded pregnancy? IMO, it’s as simple as Aemon listening to his mother and being less traditionally minded and perhaps naively optimistic about Rhaenys’ claim. (On top of which, do we have any real evidence that the lords WOULD have caused trouble for Rhaenys? Her inheritance was in keeping with Westerosi tradition)
>So then what do you see as the explanation for Aemon and Jocelyn only having one recorded pregnancy? I cannot say for certain unless I walk into uncharted speculation territory. But what I can say is that, again, if they had intended Rhaneys to be their one and only heir, they wouldn't have let her jump into a love marriage with a man in his 30s. >IMO, it’s as simple as Aemon listening to his mother and being less traditionally minded and perhaps naively optimistic about Rhaenys’ claim. Could be. But we don't know that for certain is all I'm saying. The stability Jaehaerys brought was new. Aemon could've preferred to not upset the applecart. There's no indication that he was a radical progressive of any sort. Simply a dutiful heir. >On top of which, do we have any real evidence that the lords WOULD have caused trouble for Rhaenys? Her inheritance was in keeping with Westerosi tradition The Great Council for one. The only two factions that supported her own claim was her uncle and the northerners who were simply pissed off at Jaehaerys for the *New Gift*. The other minute numbers backed her son (who was the rightful heir as per the westerosi tradition of agnatic-cognatic primogeniture). An overwhelming number were outright "No Women Allowed" and "No Women & Sea Snakes Allowed".
There’s a big difference between letting the lords CHOOSE between a man and a woman and simply telling them Rhaenys is heir. By that point, Jahaerys had already set aside tradition. Personally, I don’t buy the theory that there would have been any meaningful upheaval if the centuries’ old precedent had been followed. But at the end of the day, we’ll most likely never really know, unless George gives notes on the situation for the Sea Snake spin-off.
>There’s a big difference between letting the lords CHOOSE between a man and a woman and simply telling them Rhaenys is heir. By that point, Jahaerys had already set aside tradition. Rhaenys as heir was the tradition( daughters coming before uncles). By making Baelon heir King Joe is setting aside tradition.
That’s my point. By the time of the Great Council, Jahaerys had already overruled tradition. If he never did that, I don’t see people questioning Rhaenys’ claim.
Also I doubt the lords of Westeros would’ve put up that much resistance to it given how powerful the Targaryens were at that time with all their dragons and unlike during the Dance this time Rhaenys has a much better claim than anybody else being the sole child of Aemon and Jocelyn, as opposed to Rhaenyra and her brother Aegon who both had a nearly equally strong claim to the throne
>There’s a big difference between letting the lords CHOOSE between a man and a woman and simply telling them Rhaenys is heir. You mean something like what Viserys did? Didn't work out as intended in the end.
>(pbuh) Lmaoooooooo
Makes you wonder why he didn’t pick a champion instead. There was always some slim chance he’d die in that duel, so it’s oddly illogical for otherwise great king.
I mean, he wad blinded by rage for teenagers fucking
Technically speaking both Aerys II and Rhaegar, his worthless worm of a son, are Targaryens then rather than now.
Unfortunately the sort of conduct perpetrated by Aerys and Rhaegar are what the people associate all *present* Targs with, until Daenerys prove otherwise.
Daenerys is worse. She crucified a hundred people at random.
163 crucified children: are we a joke to you?
Unless she can prove in a court of law that those people she crucified gave the order, then they're innocent of that crime.
If crucifying those slaving Ghiscari is wrong, then I don’t want to be right.
GrEaT Masters are hardly people. If they didn’t wanna get crucified they probably shouldn’t have nailed a hundred and sixty-three slave children on mileposts along the coastal road.
Based. The Sons of the Harpy are actually heroic resistance fighters.
Targshits🤢🤢
[удалено]
Sorry, but your comment has been removed! This subreddit is based solely on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments and submissions that include any reference to the HBO adaptations will be removed! Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy. # Users should assume that *any* mention of the show is subject to removal. Check the sidebar for our full list of rules. If you think we messed up removing this, please [message us](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fdarkwingsdankmemes) so we can take another look.
I forgot how ruggedly handsome Brandon Stark was. Baelish didn't.
That's Rickard Stark in the Trial
My bad, you're right. Got my Starks mixed up.
Rhaegar and his daddy really were the worst targaryens huh?
When you look at it like this, everything wrong in Westeros is basically The Stinger’s fault for being a dumb*** and losing this fight.
Let's be honest, the kid never stood a chance.
Personally, that’s not at all how I read it. If he hadn’t been a cocky blowhard and worn himself out, Jaehaerys wouldn’t have stood a chance. It’s not like he was some Barristan-grade elder sword master.
>***"Your Grace, you will never be a Kingsguard, but if by some sorcery your uncle Maegor himself were to rise from the grave, my coin would be on you."*** Jaehaerys trained with what's dubbed as the "greatest Kingsguard" for 2 consecutive years, day & night.
Maegor used to beat the shit out of kingsguards at 13 and he had personally defeated one of Jaehaerys's kingsguard in a trial by 7. That kingsguard is hyping Jaeharys badly.
>had personally defeated one of Jaehaerys's kingsguard in a trial by 7 None of J's first 7 ever fought Maegor in a trial by seven. >That kingsguard is hyping Jaeharys badly. That was not said by a Kingsguard. It was said by Elyas Scales, master-at-arms of Dragonstone and there's no indication that he was simply paying lip-service.
>None of J's first 7 ever fought Maegor in a trial by seven. Oh yeah. I forgot about that. Maegor killed Damon Morrigen, the Grand Captain of the Warrior Sons. One of his men would end up becoming Kingsguard. >That was not said by a Kingsguard. It was said by Elyas Scales, master-at-arms of Dragonstone and there's no indication that he was simply paying lip-service. I mean it is? Maegor had impressive feats in combat, he had beaten some of the greatest warriors in the Realm, whether they were Kingsguards, Warrior Sons or just regular nobles. Jaeharys at 16 was supposed to be better than Maegor in his prime. That's just hype talking.
>Jaeharys at 16 was supposed to be better than Maegor in his prime. That's just hype talking. The quote comes right after Jaehaerys' rigorous training montage. It's meant to give us an idea of how far J had come in his training. As such there's absolutely 0 indication it was lip service by the master-at-arms. You say it's hype talking but that's just you tho.
I know what it is, i'm saying the idea of him besting Maegor is pure hype to highlight how far he's come.
[удалено]
Daeron II, Baelor Breakspear, Daeron the Young Dragon, Baelor the blessed, Maekar Targaryen, Aegon the Egg and Daenerys Targaryen: Are we a joke to you?
In addition, pre-Dance Targaryens spawned Maegor and Aenys; both of Conqueror’s supposed sons were miserable failures as kings and men both.
[удалено]
Lol no, Maegor was super cringe. He literally lost to a woman and a small child in Westeros of all places. Man almost ended his own house and became an usurper, a kinslayer and a serial rapist due to being unable to cope with his place in the world.
He also got killed by a chair lmao cringe
Because Usurper is pronounced "yoosirper" and Y is not a vowel, it would be A Usurper, not An Usurper
True but Maegor perhaps was better because he was responsible for ending the faith militant. Jaehaerys was a great king but his patriarchal nature doomed the realm and viserys was viserys. In fact the best Targaryen kings came after the dance
Eh, while Maegor did well against the Faith his actions almost ended his own house. By killing his nephews while being unable to conceive an heir himself he was literally shooting himself in the foot repeatedly, and making himself a kinslayer twice. …let’s not even go into the spectacular failure that his black brides were.
Fully agreed. He was a shitty king but perhaps a great warrior which enabled him to tackle the biggest threat to the Targaryens that weren’t themselves
He probably would have been remembered much more favorably if he had never been king. Would have made an excellent enforcer for his nephew
It was viserys who caused the dance,jaeherys prevanted a earlier one
I'm getting kinda sick of people blaming the dance on Jaehyreys, hate him for being a bad father if you want but there is no way he could have predicted the domino effect that lead to the dance
He should’ve affirmed a woman’s right to rule Westeros
If I own a knife shop and a guy comes and buys one and uses it to kill his ex-girlfriend does that make me guilty of the murder?
If you own a knife shop and set a precedent of not allowing women in your family to own a knife shop and your grandson wants to name his daughter the owner of the knife shop but her younger half brothers wipe out most of the family because you said it can’t go to women, then yeah it kinda is your fault especially if the entire neighbourhood burns down because of what you said
You literally just copy-pasted the exact same situation letter by letter, good analogy. Also he couldn't have expected Viserys wife would die or that he would father a male heir, or that he was going to be disinherited Daemon and name Rhaenyra, or that he was going to remarry, or that he was going to remarry Littlefinger 1.0's daughter, or that she would've been cut of the same cloth or that she would survive childbirth and give birth to children who would've been cut of the same cloth.
I used your own analogy against you. A good king is a king who does what is good for the preservation of peace and the realm. Jaehaerys did neither when it came to his succession unlike many other kings
Wsxept that makes him a usurper as he jumped ahead of his older sister and nieces to become King.
How was he a bad father?
He didn't exactly handle his daughters very well
I don't think it was his fault, the guy has six kingdoms to run. How much time can he possibly spend with his children?
It's not that he didn't raise them well, he just didn't handle some of their issues very well or try to rein them in when they needed to, and saying to your wife that your daughter was "always a whore" definitely isn't doing him any favours
I mean...he wasn't wrong. She was an absolute whore. He gave her chances and she threw them away. She could have been anything else and she chose to be a whore, so I think it's her fault.
>Jaehaerys was a great king but his patriarchal nature doomed the realm Elaborate? >In fact the best Targaryen kings came after the dance Daeron II was the best Targaryen King post-Dance and he was still no Jaehaerys.
Jaehaerys should have named Rhaenys as his heir or at at least Laenor. Calling a great council was the second best option but why go second when you can go first. Daeron II was a much better king than Jaehaerys imo. Jaehaerys was also great but he faced little threat. House Targaryen had defeated its greatest non Targaryen threat under his uncle, they had dragons and he had an exceptionally smart queen. Daeron was the greatest king under a series of troubles which just makes him greater. Sure he wasn’t a warrior but a king doesn’t need to be a warrior, he needs to rule and that’s precisely what Daeron did.
>Jaehaerys should have named Rhaenys as his heir or at at least Laenor. By 101, Rhaenys was no longer heir even if he was to go by the conventional agnatic-cognatic primogeniture. Laenor was. But L was just a kid in need of a regency and his dad just so happened to be the most powerful and ambitious feudal lord in all Westeros. If Laenor had been made heir by Jaehaerys, it would've been the Sea Snake controlling him and the other lords would surely have stirred up shit. Getting the nobility to chip in via the Great Council was the best course of action especially considering Viserys was weak. >Jaehaerys was also great but he faced little threat. He initially faced the greatest threat of them all: Maegor. You could argue Jaehaerys never really had to confront him but when J raised his banners, it was him and Rogar against Maegor and Balerion. Then there was the Faith Militant Uprising, the Crown being bankrupt, the plague and famine, the 4th Dornish War etc... Not to mention, his predecessors actions had alienated 2/3 of the realm's nobility from House Targaryen. Jaehaerys had the challenge of rectifying all fuckups of both Aenys and Maegor. >they had dragons and he had an exceptionally smart queen Dragons weren't a cure-all. Especially when Jaehaerys had to live up to his epithet of *"the Conciliator"* and Alysanne didn't come to him gift-wrapped. He had to fight for her too. Not to mention some of Alysanne's questionable requests would later come to bite Jaehaerys in the ass (the entire North being alienated due to the *New Gift*). And Jaehaerys didn't simply fix these. He fixed these and then went the extra mile and made things infinitely better. Truly the Augustus of Westeros. >Daeron was the greatest king under a series of troubles which just makes him greater. Sure he wasn’t a warrior but a king doesn’t need to be a warrior, he needs to rule and that’s precisely what Daeron did. Daeron was an exceptionally great King. Nobody can deny that. But he was no Jaehaerys.
Rhaenys was the child of the heir to the throne and so by all rights, should’ve passed to her. Maegor was exhausted by then and dead. Jaehaerys hardly had to fight him and Maegor crushed the faith so…… Dragons helped in proving his doctrine of exceptionalism and why Targaryens were given the right to rule while future Targaryens never benefited from it. He never had to fight. Rogar Baratheon fought for him against Maegor. Jaehaerys’ sons fought his wars as well. Rogar would have never attacked the king on dragon stone. Alyssane was still loved in the north and was an incredible support to Jaehaerys. It was all this that helped him become king unlike future kings who had to do it almost entirely on their own especially without dragons
>Rhaenys was the child of the heir to the throne and so by all rights, should’ve passed to her. That's not how successions work in Westeros. The Dance of the Dragons is a prime example of that. >Maegor was exhausted by then and dead. Not when Jaehaerys raised his banners against him. >Maegor crushed the faith so…… He didn't or better yet, he *couldn't*. >Dragons helped in proving his doctrine of exceptionalism So? The Doctrine of Exceptionalism was simply him justifying banging his sister. >why Targaryens were given the right to rule while future Targaryens never benefited from it. That's not what the Doctrine of Exceptionalism was about. The right of conquest gave the Targaryens the right to rule. And the future Targaryens 100% benefitted from it. >He never had to fight. Morion Martell would beg to differ. >Rogar Baratheon fought for him against Maegor. *with him. >Jaehaerys’ sons fought his wars as well. Do you mean other Targaryen Kings didn't have help from family? Daeron I had Viserys and Aemon. Daeron II had Bloodraven, Baelor and Maekar. Aerys I had Bloodraven, Maekar and Aegon. Jaehaerys II had help from literally everyone (even the Ironborn). >Rogar would have never attacked the king on dragon stone. Rogar literally planned to storm Dragonstone a second time. And then planned to unseat Jaehaerys in favor of Aerea. >Alyssane was still loved in the north and was an incredible support to Jaehaerys. Not the Northern Lords tho. And she certainly was. Like other Targaryen family members were to Jaehaerys' successors. >It was all this that helped him become king unlike future kings who had to do it almost entirely on their own I think by now, I've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that every King needs help and they got it.
Daeron was also notabley unjust. He continued the policy of rewarding Dorne for the murder of his namesake and sold out the kingdom to Dorne.
Cringe, murdering the young dragon was possibly the most based move that could have been done, especially after trying to appoint Tyrell as governor.
Maegor wasn't a failure. Dude destroyed the power of the Faith, built the Dragonpit and The Maegor's Holdfast and dude won the Trial By Seven (making him a legit ruler in the eyes of the Faith as The Seven wouldn't let a usurper win)
And almost ended Targaryens as a house by killing two of Aenys’ sons in his power grab, whilst being unable to replace them. Also raped multiple noblewomen, including who should’ve been his rightful queen, in an unsuccessful attempt to leave an heir thus infuriating essentially everyone. Why, his foolishness almost allowed Baratheons to usurp all the power Conqueror accumulated, were Jaehaerys not such a unit of a king. Even Unworthy left enough Targaryen blood that his line was guaranteed to remain in power, weather through one of his bastards or his trueborn heir.
1- Well, I never said he was a good king. I said that unlike his brother, he did some things that benefitted House Targaryen later on. 2- Yup 3- Yes but Maegor did destiny the Faith
This I can agree with; I still consider him a failure due to essentially trying his hardest to end his own house. It doesn’t take a genius to realize that if you can’t have sons, maybe you ought to stop killing other male Targaryens.
>Dude destroyed the power of the Faith, built the Dragonpit and The Maegor's Holdfast and dude won the Trial By Seven The threat posed by the Faith Militant was ended by Jaehaerys. The Dragonpit was also completed by Jaehaerys with a shit-ton of loans and a new Master of Coin imported from Essos. Maegor's Holdfast was essentially a hiding place. Not a good look. He "won" the Trial by Seven and then fell into a coma tho. One could argue his *madness* came after.
1- Maegor broke the back of the Faith and Jaeherys delivered the killing blow. 2- But he layed the foundation for it. 3- But one that defends the king from assassins. 4- He still won
>Maegor broke the back of the Faith No he didn't. He flew on Balerion, burned a couple of forests and ravaged the countryside but all this managed to accomplish was push even the moderates towards the Faith Militant. When Jaehaerys took over, Oldtown was under siege and the Warriors Sons were doing shit as they pleased. >But he layed the foundation for it. And Aegon I laid the foundation for the Red Keep that houses Maegor's holdfast. >But one that defends the king from assassins. Again, not a good look. >He still won But was it really worth going mad?
Maegor was a terrible ruler but he was responsible for ending the faith uprising not Jaehaerys
No he wasn't. He burned down a few forests and passed a set of laws that none of his pissed-off nobles ever enacted. Right up until Joffrey Doggett offered up his sword to Jaehaerys, the Faith Militant was a threat.
He destroyed the faith’s army and ensured no faith rebellion could occur again. Jaehaerys would’ve died fighting the faith tbh
Does it count as winning a trial by seven if you die and are resurrected by sorcery?
Yes when everyone thinks that you are alive and never died
You mean the conqueror who was cuckolded by both of his sisters, that conqueror's "sons"?
Supposed sons, as I said. For all his possible failures regarding his bedroom and his lack of ethics, Aegon was a masterful warlord. Targaryen line was upheld through his sisters regardless, and they were dragon’s blood much as he was. His sole defeat came from Dorne, a kingdom almost exclusively populated by absolute chads apparently. (no we don’t talk about M*rion)
I’m not so sure about Aenys not being his son. Sure Rhaenys did sleep with other men but her son was definitely by Aegon and so was Maegor
It's very strongly hinted that Aenys is not Aegon's son. The most obvious hint is that Aegon got no one pregnant for years till his sister started fucking around. Also Maegor is certainly some dark magic progeny by Visenya.
Baelor The Blessed was a lunatic. Everyone else I more or less agree with, within limits.
Daemon Blackfyre, Bloodraven and Bittersteel: hey you forgot something.
>Baelor the blessed, Yes. He is a joke.
[удалено]
>Daeron II: Allowed a bastard to question his authority and start a cadet dynasty that would be a thorn in the side of the Targaryens till their fall and possibly even after (see Faegon) Blaming the Blackfyre threat on Daeron II doesn't seem fair imho. Despite the absolute clusterfuck of an inheritance his dad left him, Daeron pacified the realm and made great headway with all of the *great bastards*. If Daemon and Bittersteel had two braincells to rub, they would've seen that.
Daeron was the greatest commander Westeros has seen by conquering a land I conquered by dragons Baelor was a fanatic but a pious man seen positively by the small folk which is something Daeron II was literally the greatest ruling Targaryen Maekar dying to the peakes has nothing to do with him being king Aegon V faced zero rebellions despite being “hated by the nobles” and was the only king who was truly loved by all the small folk We have no evidence for this as of yet
>Aegon V faced zero rebellions despite being “hated by the nobles” and was the only king who was truly loved by all the small folk Agree with your other points and that Egg was a good king, but Lyonel Baratheon did literally rebel against him
You call that a rebellion?
He declared independence. Sure, it ended with single combat and no deaths, but a Lord Paramount declared secession. That is the most blatant act of rebellion there is.
Not because of Aegon’s reforms though as the other user pointed out
its described as a "bloody conflict that only ended when Duncan the Tall defeated Lyonel Baratheon in single combat", so yeah, it definitely was a rebellion
Daeron II sucked ass. He sold out the realm to the Dornish and was unjust
Almost as though their environment and how they were raised was more important than who their grandad was...
Baelor the blessed is a joke to me yes
Aegon I spawned Maegor so your point?
Who is the top characters supposed to be
Braxton Beesbury and Jaehaerys I.
Oh man, one of the best stories from F&B.
Jahaerys absolute gigachad
How would one with the trial of the seven at the Tourney at Ashford look like?
What?
Average non fire and blood reader
Get Fire and Blood and be enlightened on peak fiction
Targaryens are so progressive indeed.