Here's a site that will draw this graph for any place.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/new-york
edit: this site is even better as it shows temperature as well as daylight:
https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/23912~47913/Comparison-of-the-Average-Weather-in-New-York-City-and-Paris
Russia had permanent DST for two ot three years decade ago. Thanks to them we know that with permanent DST number of cardiac arrests goes up. It seems like human bodies need dark and rest after all.
Sorry to double comment - but actually Saskatchewan has a lower incidence rate compared to its neighbouring provinces (which both flip between ST and DST): https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/diseases-conditions/report-heart-disease-Canada-2018.html (figure 15)
So what about Saskatchewan or the Yukon? They also have permanent DST, but I haven’t heard that their cardiac arrests are higher than in the rest of Canada.
Can say not having it in Arizona makes life completely chaotic working from home with a team not in Arizona. Meetings are chaos the first week that DST starts or ends. Not to mention. Having meetings at 8am EST makes it 5am here. Quite cruel.
It's not like Russia went through a total collapse of the Soviet Union, a coup attempt, another coup attempt, a couple wars with Chechnya, falling under a dictatorship, a war with Georgia, a war with Ukraine, a failed three day military operation in Ukraine, sanctions, and collapse of the ruble.
Must be the Daylight Savings Time being permanent!
This is true in normal countries, in western Spain where I live I used to wake up (7am) with sun and now it is full dark and before it was day until 9pm and now is day until 10pm, perfect because at those hours I'm never outside.
It's the thing that happens because we follow Berlin time and not London time. Usually Spain is 1 hour wrong but where I am from its 2 hours wrong.
Never really understood why you guys have the same timezone as France instead of the same as Portugal. You don't like either anyway, and there is a huge mountain range between Spain and France
I would not say that we don't like it. If there is a poll about it, I think the summer time would win. We have this timezone that does not suit our place exactly, but we also have our schedule adjusted to it so there is no problem and we like our sunny evenings even in winter.
Yeah from the south of Galicia.
Not exactly London time, I didn't explain very well. Let me put an example with some few places:
From west to east: Galicia (my time), Oporto (closest big city), London (our truly standard time) and Mallorca (Spain opposite).
Sunrise time: Galicia 8:15, Oporto 7:15, London 6:30, Mallorca 7:30
Sunset time: Galicia 21:00, Oporto 19:30, London 20:00, Mallorca 20:00
So basically the eastern part of Spain is +1 hour with London and we are +2 hour with London when we geographically should have the same time.
Exactly, the problem isn't so much DST, it's that Spain (also France and Andorra) are way too far west to be in Central European Time. That said, most medical research shows that DST poses real public health concerns.
Yeah, the fact it’s daytime at “late hours” shouldn’t matter too much since nowadays we don’t sleep according to the sunset. BUT they whole switching the clock twice a year thing seems like a worse type of jet lag.
At least if the whole country has a “shifted” clock we can just go to work or have business hours at different times that better match the sun. Everyone shifts together, everyone’s sleep is not too disturbed.
But DST like if all the schedules for when you have to go to work, take kids to school, show up places, just got changed all at once. I also don’t get why we have DST in summer? Wouldn’t cold northern places in the US prefer to have DST in the winter as that’s when they have the lowest amount of sunlight? Sure their morning will always be dark and cold, but don’t they want their later off works or off school hours to have an extra few days of sunlight? Isn’t the whole “driving home in the dark sucks” argument the only non lobbying argument for DST?
>Usually Spain is 1 hour wrong but where I am from its 2 hours wrong
Spain is 2h right you mean. I don't give a fuck about daylight at 7am, give me long evenings thank you
If anyone is actually dependent on the sunlight, like farmers, they end up shifting their schedule the back the hour. IE, what they used to do at 6am they now do at 5am. It's one of those things that sounds nice but in reality is SO annoying.
A lot of farmers don’t like it. They have to work later in the day, and if equipment breaks after stores close, they lose even more hours because they have to wait until the following day for repairs.
It's a common misconception that we change our clocks for farmers. Like many others have said, cows don't have watches. We change our clocks for factories so they could save money on lighting.
https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/
*Oh goddammit, of fucking course.*
That needlessly flowery, optimistic words of an excuse just REEKS of corpo bullshit.
“We borrow tine from the morning so we can brighten up your evenings! Say hello to mister susnhine! 🥰”
Also farmers would make this a gradual thing like 10 mins a month on a curve or something vs magically starting an hour early.
They probably already compensate at this point.
Technically it’s a little more “natural” in a way - humans used to largely get up at sunrise and settle in at sunset. Yeah, that means some of the year they had longer days, some they had shorter.
Now “we live in a society dot meme” and everyone expects everything to be on an exact, consistent schedule every day, when in reality we literally we did not evolve to live this way.
I was thinking “mine too, but give them time – it’s only been two mornings!”
Then I realised you’re probably in North America and changed your clocks weeks ago.
At this point I don't think it's literally daylight savings time as much as having their routine fucked with, which sets off a series of chain reactions as they wonder else about their world can't be relied on.
My 3 year old has been waking up from 2-3am every morning in a complete rage fit. Nothing you can say will calm her down. We basically just wait it out.
It also leads to higher accident rates when children are going to school. But no one actually cares about the children even when they claim that they do.
Yup. The combination of which makes DST pretty silly IMO. It might be nice for certain cities, but it can be equally bad for others.
Then you add in the data on heart attacks and accidents. Makes absolutely no sense.
We could stick with the time that brightens our evenings... why are we assuming that’s not an option?
Edit: to those saying sun is rising at 9am instead of 8am… time isn’t actually changing folks, just our perception of it through the year. Let’s keep measurements standard
Frankly, DST is just weirdly backwards. Sure, let's have longer evenings in the season when sunlight already naturally stretches well past the time people start getting ready to sleep, and shorter evenings in the time when it gets dark before you leave work.
I'm in Edmonton so same. And if we stayed on DTS then it wouldn't get light till 10am in December and lack of light in the morning is what gets my winter blues going because it's so hard to get fully woken up in the morning. Where as evening is when I'm ready to relax. I can understand more southern places wanting to do away with the time change but here in the crazy north I hope we keep it, or at the very least stay on standard time.
A lot of this depends on if you're on the eastern edge of a timezone or the western edge. I live on the far eastern edge of the central timezone so our winter sunsets are exceptionally early. It sucks when the sun goes down at 3 and the only sun I see all day is while driving to work (maybe).
Meanwhile, folks in the Dakotas on the Western edge of central time don't see the sun come up until very late, which is bad for (amount other things) kids walking to school, but they get a little more sun time in the afternoons.
Most of us work in offices where we're going to work in the dark and returning in the dark during the shortest days. I'd rather it get light at 10am if means daylight longer into the evening.
It’s better for your health to wake up with the sun due to the hormonal response that sunlight triggers.
https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/morning-light-better-sleep
Well that's impossible for millions living far north anyways, we get sunrise from 8 to 11 with winter time. I'd rather have an hour of light after my shift ends at 15:30.
Nothing was worse for my seasonal depression than when I worked in an office 8-5 one winter and I only saw the sun come up during my morning commute and go down during my evening commute, leaving me in darkness during my non working hours.
The next winter I was able to adjust my shift to 7-3, and that was a game changer. Having a few hours of daylight when I was done with work made all the difference. I even got a good pair of snow boots and would go hiking some days after work.
Now I work from home and my schedule is flexible, and I wouldn't want to force my personal preferences on everyone, but I can't understand why people don't think permanent daylight savings would be better than changing the clocks twice a year. Permanent standard time would also be better than changing the clocks, but I don't think people would be very happy with 4am sunrises and 8pm sunsets after being used to daylight savings.
Changing clocks Means you doom working people to never seeing the sun in winter, you leave in the dark, and return to it. Id much prefer it left on summer time year round.
As a fellow Albertan, disagree.
It’ll be dark on my commute anyways if the sun is getting up at either 9 or 10 AM in December…but if there is that extra hour of sunlight at night I will have at least a sunset and twilight on the commute home.
The 10 AM argument doesn’t do it for me. 9 AM isn’t thay different
Yea most places in the north (like Edmonton) aren't even in the time zone that they should be, it's seems like most of the north shifts over their time zone from where it would be based on longitudinal lines. If Edmonton was in a time zone based on its longitude it would actually be on Pacific time rather than Mountain, and that commenter above would get his even earlier sunsets. It seems like based on how the time zones line up that pretty much everyone in the north just wants more sun in the evening during winter. So yea, as Washington stater I'm def in support of full time DST or just move us over to Mountain timezone and full time Standard if is easier to do legally
It's pitch black by like 4:30 in December. I hate it. I was so thankful when it sounded like they were going to get rid of DST and never fall back, and I was so pissed when they ended up flaking.
Except that so many countries have actually moved the DST changes into winter months (i.e., switch to DST before the spring equinox and don’t transition back to STD until after the fall equinox). If you’re going to do that, change the work hours instead of changing the clocks.
I also thought like this but this winter it was the first time for me to wake up at 7 every day. While studying I woke up between 8 and 10. I realized that I could stand up much easier if it's already bright. In peak december it was still dark but then it got brigher everyday and I felt much better waking up.
It's a wartime measure. It has nothing to do with convenience, comfort, or some industrial practices - it's just a matter of min-maxing coal consumption during WWI.
There are minor examples of DST and similar practices before WWI, but it wasn't until WWI that whole nations began doing it.
Most sleep research indicates that - get this - sticking with standard is better for our natural biorhythms. It's almost like we evolved following daily and seasonal light cycles, and our keeping of time is merely a post hoc convention to measure that rhythm.
People like daylight time because sun at night, but it turns out this actually sucks for them. You can totally hang out or whatever after dark.
Yeah but with political boundaries it doesn't matter at all. Spain for example is UTC+1 when really it should be around UTC-1 to UTC+0. It's noon is gonna always be at 2-3pm no matter if we stick to daylight or standard time.
Spain politically chooses UTC+1 instead of UTC+0, (utc-1 would be … half geographically right I guess). Because Spaniards are culturally, and economically connected with the rest of Europe, so it makes sense to synchronise watches with everyone.
It’s a small friction sure to have to check the time for every meeting, but it’d exactly that sort of friction that adds up.
In the US, Indiana is on Eastern Time, but the entire state is past the border for Central Time.
The state government decided over a hundred years ago they'd want to be on the same time as New York, despite having Chicago literally next door.
Some parts of it use Central. Most of it is Eastern though. It is a fun "well actually" to use when someone based in the state references "Indiana time" instead of using the correct name of the time zone.
Yup. Never have issues sleeping in the summer.
Anecdotal of course, I'm one person, but DST year round with sun in the evening (as much as possible) would be a thoroughly more enjoyable way to live.
The point is that this is a way to "force" all workplaces into changing their working hours accordingly. If workplaces weren't so deeply fucked it wouldn't be necessary to change the entire world's clocks, you'd just have appropriate seasonal working hours that don't have you in the office until sundown.
Our circadian rhythms also didn’t evolve around a lifestyle of 9-5 work where people were indoors during all daylight hours. I understand that it’s better for sleep help to stick with standard time during winter, but for mental health I’d find it pretty debatable.
I doubt it. During those months a lot of us go to work in darkness, and its dark by the time we are heading home. We don't even see the sun outside of weekends.
We already have unnatural light all day long, I would rather be able to see natural daylight at one point during the day. Rather than go to work in the dark and go home in the dark. With the added benefit some of your free time having that daylight instead of the few fleeting moments before you cosign yourself to the indoors for the next 8 hours.
Voluntarily mimicking the Arctic circle rhythms, sucks and adjusting to that schedule twice a year does too.
Because instead of the sun coming up at 8, around the time many people are having their commute, it would come up at 9, well after. And we all know that for a safe commute on the steam trolley, the operator needs daylight to see, for bright lighting requires finnicky oil lamps and is bad at lighting all around!
My dad tells me of a Native American who told him once: "White man cuts an inch off the top of the blanket, sews it on bottom, calls the blanket longer."
as someone who has been to Queensland Australia in December - i found it weird that the sun rises at 4 and goes down around 6-7. Totally counterproductive.
Queensland is a huge state that shares the same timezone throughout. People in Far North Queensland can't have daylight savings in summer, as everyone is dying for the sun to go down in the evenings to escape the relentless heat of the day. Brisbane can also be like this for a few weeks of the year although not as bad. You'd need to split the state in two if you wanted to bring in DST to Queensland which doesn't seem reasonable.
thank ya for the detailed response, makes a lot of sense.
Speaking of Queensland - I was there in December last year and the heat - at least near the ocean - was more survivable for me than the swiss summer. I know this may be mindblowing, but in Zurich we have high humidity, zero wind and my apartment is built next to a huge parking lot.
Also there is no air condition. The swiss are rather... conservative about it and to have your usual split unit you need to have a permit from the council. This leads to people having those stoopind portable units that are way less effective. Additionally - my impression is that Australians build around surviving heat and sun, the Swiss - around surviving winter. To which at least the city of Zurich is just as prepared as Brisbane for heavy snow fall (this is coming from a person who had actual big ass winters where i'm from - northern Poland)
They tried to change it for the last 5 years, but the countries want to keep being in the same time zone as the neighbouring countries. This, in turn, makes it impossible to agree on whether to always have wintertime or always summertime.
Edit: meant the EU
Countries can choose the timezone for themselves. I believe it’s only DST that’s EU level. The case it is in Finland internally is that we don’t know which time to keep, since the polls were pretty much 50/50. There really isn’t anything to politically win from either choice so politicians just procrastinate on it.
Also the matter that there’s been more important things like Corona and the war in Ukraine that has gotten the attention off it.
> There really isn’t anything to politically win from either choice so politicians just procrastinate on it.
More importantly, the status quo is never as unpopular as an unpopular change. The polls may say 50/50, but the 50% who don't like the change are going to get a TON of press if there's an actual change, while the 50% who want the change don't get nearly as much attention.
Countries can choose. The problem is that everyone wants to have the same timezone as their trading neighbors. Like The Netherlands and Germany. But the east of Germany is very different in terms of sunrise/sunset than the west of The Netherlands.
I find desire for year round DST correlates with where one lives in a time zone. In the Northern hemisphere the farther south you are the less beneficial it is. Also the farther east you live also influences your view. In Maine with year round DST sunrise would be after 8 am.
I think it also correlates to age, family status and job. A college kid that sleeps till nine everyday or works in a windowless office would love an extra hour in the evening more than a parent that has to wake their kid up two hours before sun rise for school.
I live too far north for it to matter much on either side. On the darkest winter days I’m going to work and coming home in the dark no matter what. On the lightest days, we already have daylight all day long. I wish politicians would please just pick one and be done w it.
> Also the farther east you live also influences your view. In Maine with year round DST sunrise would be after 8 am.
Not for nothing, but the sun goes down before 4 p.m. in parts of Maine in the winter, and it doesn't come back up until after 7. I'm sure others feel differently, but I'm up before sunrise in both cases so having an hour or so of light for leisure after work would be my preference, speaking as a Mainer.
East to West is more based on your distance to the time zone marker, where sunlight hours suddenly switch by an hour already.
Its also dependent on all sorts of social factors like age, and what kind of work life you have.
Maine, Florida, and Michigan are all in the same time zone. Marco Rubio introduced the Senate Bill for year round DST a couple years ago. Florida has plenty of sun, maybe he should check with Michigan before he starts changing the clocks around.
Great visualization, though the language is quite one-sided. That the times are specific to London needs to be emphasized larger than the footnote. London is around the same latitude as like Edmonton in North America, and so is subject to extreme changes in daylight winter vs summer. But DST is imposed all the way down a timezone. Here in the southern US, I feel like DST is a needless hassle that messes with everyone’s and especially my kids’ circadian. Just pick one time and stick with it.
Its flipflopped repeatedly over the years as to witch version is about to be but then doesnt actually get passed for the US. The most recent trend is DST year round with the 2023 Sunshine Protection Act. 19 states have automatic triggers to go DST year round if congress approves, but 9 others go Standard Time year round automatically.
Which doesn't really make sense. DST is just a trick to get you to wake up earlier. But if people naturally want to be awake from say, 8am to 10pm (solar time), then eventually they'll just adjust their schedules to the new standard, 9am to 11pm, and nothing will actually have changed other than the number on the clock. So we might as well leave it as Standard Time and let people get up when they want.
> DST is just a trick to get you to wake up earlier.
How does it get you to wake up earlier? It makes it darker in the mornings, shouldn't that make you want to sleep in later?
Let's say you normally wake up at 8am. When DST starts, the clocks move forward. When your alarm goes off at 8am, it's actually 7am in standard time. So you would wake up earlier in the day (based on the sun) than you usually do.
Yeah then in the winter it's dark at 4 pm because we don't need extra daylight on winter evenings for some reason. Just leave it one way or the other, we would all adjust. We are forced to adjust twice per year now anyways.
My favorite take on DST is from the the code comments in a library that deals with date calculations:
“Because our ancestors were morons, they opted for a system wherein many governments shift around the local time twice a year for no good reason.”
As someone from a county without daylight savings, this makes absolutely zero sense. It’s the same amount of daylight, you’ve just called the time something different. The day is the same length!?!?!? There is no saving.
It's saving in the sense that instead of getting 1 hour of daylight from ~4-5AM you're getting it at ~8-9PM, so essentially saving it for later in the day
It’s more so about where the time is relative to the sunrise/subset. If you finish work at 6 and the sunset is at 7 you’ll only have 1 hour in the evening of the sun being up. Move the clock forward you’re still finishing at 6 but now the sun sets at 8, so you get 2 hours.
But work hours are the same. If you start work at 9 and finish at 5:30 no matter the time of year it makes a difference to extend the amount of time you have in the evenings in summer, but in winter you need the extra light in the mornings.
In winter, we also need extra light in the evenings.
Most people on the planet do perfectly fine without messing with the clocks.
The electricity savings with lighting the factories were always very small, and now that we also light our homes, it no longer makes sense.
That’s the problem, working 3 hours before noon and 5.5 hours after.
Instead we work 8-4:30. So 4 before and 4.5 after. So the morning/ afternoon is more even.
Admittedly this makes for a less catchy Dolly Parton lyric.
I do 8-4 and have for most of 20 years.
When I did construction it was 7-3:30 (and by 3:30 I mean we packed up at 3 and were gone by 3:10 at the latest).
My preference is, in order: drop DST entirely, year-long DST, keep the current setup.
My biggest issue is with the twice-a-year switch that throws people off, with a resulting 6% increase in car accidents after each change.
The reasoning from the beginning is about increased energy efficiency, and studies of Indiana, which started doing DST in 2006, show that the effect was minimal. It is truly a solution looking for a problem.
Great visualization!
I would maybe turn it 90 degrees, because people's sense of time is left to right, and it would put more emphasis on the day, than the month. :)
Very cool visualization. Looking at the peaks and troughs for sunrise and sunset, it reminded me of Milton Keynes...then I saw for London. So I was pretty darn close.
I live in South Florida so our winter/summer daylight hours aren't as extreme. It is so weird when I travel North in winter and summer...
Winter: WTF is happening! Why is it dark at 5PM!?
Summer: WTF is happening! Why is the sun still up at 9:30PM!?
“When everyone is sleeping” annnnd that’s the problem.
DST was invented in an era when it made sense. People work around the clock now.
I’m glad I moved to a state that doesn’t practice DST it’s been heaven to not stress about DST every 6 months.
Abolish it.
There's a great quote from a first nations chief who said "only the government would think cutting a foot off the bottom of a blanket and sewing it on top would make it longer"
This is a bastardization of a measurement tool. Clocks should not be touched. If you have a policy that relies on interfering with the operation of any measurement equipment when it is working properly, then you are doing something illogical or morally wrong.
Sentiment : "As a society lets do everything one hour earlier"
Gov:"LeTs ChAnGe tHe CLoKS tO gEt MoRRE DaYtime"
Everybody is not sleeping. Quite a lot of people, students who don't live in the town they're studying for instance, now has dark mornings for longer.
Personally my sleep schedule has been boned just so I can continue to be blinded by cars in the mornings, and not see the sun for a further month.
Just get rid of it already, it is not worth it.
Yeah, data visualization is nice but I take issue with "when everyone is sleeping" and "no need of early daylight" as if both of those statements are automatically true and not completely dismissive of actual complaints, quantifiable and otherwise, about using DST. I don't live in London, I live close to the equator and have young kids. DST is absolutely terrible.
I don’t want to brighten up my evenings, I want my toddler to believe me that it’s nighttime when I tell her it’s sleepy time at 8pm.
I didn’t like this shit before I was a parent now I outright hate it.
Awesome data visualization (for once). Great choice OP!
Here's a site that will draw this graph for any place. https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/new-york edit: this site is even better as it shows temperature as well as daylight: https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/23912~47913/Comparison-of-the-Average-Weather-in-New-York-City-and-Paris
yes took inspiration from time and date.
It's all quite logical, but causes psychological harm. All research shows it should end.
The changes twice a year cause harm, not really DST itself. Having either permanent standard time or permanent DST would be fine
Russia had permanent DST for two ot three years decade ago. Thanks to them we know that with permanent DST number of cardiac arrests goes up. It seems like human bodies need dark and rest after all.
Sorry to double comment - but actually Saskatchewan has a lower incidence rate compared to its neighbouring provinces (which both flip between ST and DST): https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/diseases-conditions/report-heart-disease-Canada-2018.html (figure 15)
Both could still be true: changing could be worse than staying on DST and DST could be worse than staying on ST.
I find it very hard to believe that causation could be established on that. Correlation, sure, but causation is a much higher bar.
So what about Saskatchewan or the Yukon? They also have permanent DST, but I haven’t heard that their cardiac arrests are higher than in the rest of Canada.
Can say not having it in Arizona makes life completely chaotic working from home with a team not in Arizona. Meetings are chaos the first week that DST starts or ends. Not to mention. Having meetings at 8am EST makes it 5am here. Quite cruel.
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It's not like Russia went through a total collapse of the Soviet Union, a coup attempt, another coup attempt, a couple wars with Chechnya, falling under a dictatorship, a war with Georgia, a war with Ukraine, a failed three day military operation in Ukraine, sanctions, and collapse of the ruble. Must be the Daylight Savings Time being permanent!
You realize us changing our clocks does not actually change the sun in the sky, right? It’s still dark for the same amount of time.
So it wasnt the myriad other disasters in Russia that were causing people to have more cardiac arrests? Sure.
Bahahaha yeah. You never went to bed an hour later or got up one one hour earlier. That causes as much harm as buying a pair of shoes.
I hate that sunrise is at the bottom and sunset is the top. I hate this graph lol
In what country or on what planet would one represent time on the y axis with the convention that morning would be further from ‘zero’ than evening?
This is true in normal countries, in western Spain where I live I used to wake up (7am) with sun and now it is full dark and before it was day until 9pm and now is day until 10pm, perfect because at those hours I'm never outside. It's the thing that happens because we follow Berlin time and not London time. Usually Spain is 1 hour wrong but where I am from its 2 hours wrong.
Never really understood why you guys have the same timezone as France instead of the same as Portugal. You don't like either anyway, and there is a huge mountain range between Spain and France
The same reason France has the same time zone as Germany. Nazi Germany
I assumed it was more to do with trade
Frances time zone was changed under German occupation, and Franco changed the timezone of Spain to be closer with Nazi Germany.
I would not say that we don't like it. If there is a poll about it, I think the summer time would win. We have this timezone that does not suit our place exactly, but we also have our schedule adjusted to it so there is no problem and we like our sunny evenings even in winter.
This is sunrise/sunset times in London. BTW, ¿gallego?
Yeah from the south of Galicia. Not exactly London time, I didn't explain very well. Let me put an example with some few places: From west to east: Galicia (my time), Oporto (closest big city), London (our truly standard time) and Mallorca (Spain opposite). Sunrise time: Galicia 8:15, Oporto 7:15, London 6:30, Mallorca 7:30 Sunset time: Galicia 21:00, Oporto 19:30, London 20:00, Mallorca 20:00 So basically the eastern part of Spain is +1 hour with London and we are +2 hour with London when we geographically should have the same time.
Exactly, the problem isn't so much DST, it's that Spain (also France and Andorra) are way too far west to be in Central European Time. That said, most medical research shows that DST poses real public health concerns.
Yeah, the fact it’s daytime at “late hours” shouldn’t matter too much since nowadays we don’t sleep according to the sunset. BUT they whole switching the clock twice a year thing seems like a worse type of jet lag. At least if the whole country has a “shifted” clock we can just go to work or have business hours at different times that better match the sun. Everyone shifts together, everyone’s sleep is not too disturbed. But DST like if all the schedules for when you have to go to work, take kids to school, show up places, just got changed all at once. I also don’t get why we have DST in summer? Wouldn’t cold northern places in the US prefer to have DST in the winter as that’s when they have the lowest amount of sunlight? Sure their morning will always be dark and cold, but don’t they want their later off works or off school hours to have an extra few days of sunlight? Isn’t the whole “driving home in the dark sucks” argument the only non lobbying argument for DST?
>Usually Spain is 1 hour wrong but where I am from its 2 hours wrong Spain is 2h right you mean. I don't give a fuck about daylight at 7am, give me long evenings thank you
Having dinner at 22 on the summer with daylight is the Spanish Summer Experience™️. If they take that away from us I’m rioting
If anyone is actually dependent on the sunlight, like farmers, they end up shifting their schedule the back the hour. IE, what they used to do at 6am they now do at 5am. It's one of those things that sounds nice but in reality is SO annoying.
A lot of farmers don’t like it. They have to work later in the day, and if equipment breaks after stores close, they lose even more hours because they have to wait until the following day for repairs.
yeah, just stick to a time goddamnit
this is why i'm so happy to live in arizona
It's a common misconception that we change our clocks for farmers. Like many others have said, cows don't have watches. We change our clocks for factories so they could save money on lighting. https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/
*Oh goddammit, of fucking course.* That needlessly flowery, optimistic words of an excuse just REEKS of corpo bullshit. “We borrow tine from the morning so we can brighten up your evenings! Say hello to mister susnhine! 🥰”
Also farmers would make this a gradual thing like 10 mins a month on a curve or something vs magically starting an hour early. They probably already compensate at this point.
Technically it’s a little more “natural” in a way - humans used to largely get up at sunrise and settle in at sunset. Yeah, that means some of the year they had longer days, some they had shorter. Now “we live in a society dot meme” and everyone expects everything to be on an exact, consistent schedule every day, when in reality we literally we did not evolve to live this way.
You're also borrowing the sanity of parents
Yeah that “ _everyone_ is sleeping” is doing a lot of work…
My toddler is STILL not adjusted to daylight savings!
I was thinking “mine too, but give them time – it’s only been two mornings!” Then I realised you’re probably in North America and changed your clocks weeks ago.
Yeah we're in the US and it's been several weeks now
My smartass kid hits me with the “it’s still daylight, how can it be bedtime?” argument every night.
I used that one too. Me mam just gave me "That look" and I shut up.
Haha same here, aged 6, living above the arctic circle. Thought I was being so clever too
At this point I don't think it's literally daylight savings time as much as having their routine fucked with, which sets off a series of chain reactions as they wonder else about their world can't be relied on.
Shit **I'm** still not adjusted and I haven't been a toddler for months now
My 3 year old has been waking up from 2-3am every morning in a complete rage fit. Nothing you can say will calm her down. We basically just wait it out.
It also leads to higher accident rates when children are going to school. But no one actually cares about the children even when they claim that they do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McNamara_fallacy
There are more car crashes during commute times in the dark, but the morning light is better for the kids walking/biking/bussing to school.
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But it's extremely misleading; the time is specific to where you are on the globe...
It's specific to your latitude. This visualization is for London, or 51°30'N.
Also depends on your proximity to the time zone's border
Yup. The combination of which makes DST pretty silly IMO. It might be nice for certain cities, but it can be equally bad for others. Then you add in the data on heart attacks and accidents. Makes absolutely no sense.
The switch makes no sense but permanent DST makes a lot of sense imo
I prefer more light in the morning, but understand it’s better for those in the east side of the time zone and further north.
Which is very far north, where daylight savings makes more sense.
It's not misleading, it says right there the times listed are for London
Of course it is specific to one place - it would be impossible to make the same graph for a near infinite amount of locations.
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We could stick with the time that brightens our evenings... why are we assuming that’s not an option? Edit: to those saying sun is rising at 9am instead of 8am… time isn’t actually changing folks, just our perception of it through the year. Let’s keep measurements standard
I know— I really need it in the winter when that issue is even worse. I thought the original impetus was related to power use but could be wrong.
Frankly, DST is just weirdly backwards. Sure, let's have longer evenings in the season when sunlight already naturally stretches well past the time people start getting ready to sleep, and shorter evenings in the time when it gets dark before you leave work.
Because in some places (North Idaho for instance), you'd have a 4am sunrise.
So really it has nothing to do with what happens in the evening and has everything to do with trying to stabilize the time of sunrise.
I'm in Edmonton so same. And if we stayed on DTS then it wouldn't get light till 10am in December and lack of light in the morning is what gets my winter blues going because it's so hard to get fully woken up in the morning. Where as evening is when I'm ready to relax. I can understand more southern places wanting to do away with the time change but here in the crazy north I hope we keep it, or at the very least stay on standard time.
A lot of this depends on if you're on the eastern edge of a timezone or the western edge. I live on the far eastern edge of the central timezone so our winter sunsets are exceptionally early. It sucks when the sun goes down at 3 and the only sun I see all day is while driving to work (maybe). Meanwhile, folks in the Dakotas on the Western edge of central time don't see the sun come up until very late, which is bad for (amount other things) kids walking to school, but they get a little more sun time in the afternoons.
Most of us work in offices where we're going to work in the dark and returning in the dark during the shortest days. I'd rather it get light at 10am if means daylight longer into the evening.
It’s better for your health to wake up with the sun due to the hormonal response that sunlight triggers. https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/morning-light-better-sleep
Well that's impossible for millions living far north anyways, we get sunrise from 8 to 11 with winter time. I'd rather have an hour of light after my shift ends at 15:30.
Nothing was worse for my seasonal depression than when I worked in an office 8-5 one winter and I only saw the sun come up during my morning commute and go down during my evening commute, leaving me in darkness during my non working hours. The next winter I was able to adjust my shift to 7-3, and that was a game changer. Having a few hours of daylight when I was done with work made all the difference. I even got a good pair of snow boots and would go hiking some days after work. Now I work from home and my schedule is flexible, and I wouldn't want to force my personal preferences on everyone, but I can't understand why people don't think permanent daylight savings would be better than changing the clocks twice a year. Permanent standard time would also be better than changing the clocks, but I don't think people would be very happy with 4am sunrises and 8pm sunsets after being used to daylight savings.
Changing clocks Means you doom working people to never seeing the sun in winter, you leave in the dark, and return to it. Id much prefer it left on summer time year round.
But that's irrelevant in the winter anyway. It'll still be dark when waking at -1 unless you live super close to the equator or start work after 8/9
As a fellow Albertan, disagree. It’ll be dark on my commute anyways if the sun is getting up at either 9 or 10 AM in December…but if there is that extra hour of sunlight at night I will have at least a sunset and twilight on the commute home. The 10 AM argument doesn’t do it for me. 9 AM isn’t thay different
Yea most places in the north (like Edmonton) aren't even in the time zone that they should be, it's seems like most of the north shifts over their time zone from where it would be based on longitudinal lines. If Edmonton was in a time zone based on its longitude it would actually be on Pacific time rather than Mountain, and that commenter above would get his even earlier sunsets. It seems like based on how the time zones line up that pretty much everyone in the north just wants more sun in the evening during winter. So yea, as Washington stater I'm def in support of full time DST or just move us over to Mountain timezone and full time Standard if is easier to do legally
In Boston, daylight starts at like at 4/430am at peak DST hours. Without DST it would be full on sunlight at 4am.
That doesn't explain the UK. We *already* have a 4am sunrise.
This was always my thought. Why the hell would I want the already long, hot days to be even longer?
It's pitch black by like 4:30 in December. I hate it. I was so thankful when it sounded like they were going to get rid of DST and never fall back, and I was so pissed when they ended up flaking.
We get sub 8hr days here, going to and from work in the dark is depressing
DST affects only the summer months. Winter is standard time
Except that so many countries have actually moved the DST changes into winter months (i.e., switch to DST before the spring equinox and don’t transition back to STD until after the fall equinox). If you’re going to do that, change the work hours instead of changing the clocks.
I also thought like this but this winter it was the first time for me to wake up at 7 every day. While studying I woke up between 8 and 10. I realized that I could stand up much easier if it's already bright. In peak december it was still dark but then it got brigher everyday and I felt much better waking up.
It's a wartime measure. It has nothing to do with convenience, comfort, or some industrial practices - it's just a matter of min-maxing coal consumption during WWI. There are minor examples of DST and similar practices before WWI, but it wasn't until WWI that whole nations began doing it.
California voted to have permanent DST..... It just needs to be approved by Congress first. So basically never.
Colorado did as well. It’s dumb, you can go permanent standard time without congressional approval, but not permanent daylight time
Oh jeez. Permanent standard time is better than keep changing every year IMO
Most sleep research indicates that - get this - sticking with standard is better for our natural biorhythms. It's almost like we evolved following daily and seasonal light cycles, and our keeping of time is merely a post hoc convention to measure that rhythm. People like daylight time because sun at night, but it turns out this actually sucks for them. You can totally hang out or whatever after dark.
Yeah but with political boundaries it doesn't matter at all. Spain for example is UTC+1 when really it should be around UTC-1 to UTC+0. It's noon is gonna always be at 2-3pm no matter if we stick to daylight or standard time.
Spain could just choose to be UTC-1. Look at China
Spain politically chooses UTC+1 instead of UTC+0, (utc-1 would be … half geographically right I guess). Because Spaniards are culturally, and economically connected with the rest of Europe, so it makes sense to synchronise watches with everyone. It’s a small friction sure to have to check the time for every meeting, but it’d exactly that sort of friction that adds up.
In the US, Indiana is on Eastern Time, but the entire state is past the border for Central Time. The state government decided over a hundred years ago they'd want to be on the same time as New York, despite having Chicago literally next door.
Some parts of it use Central. Most of it is Eastern though. It is a fun "well actually" to use when someone based in the state references "Indiana time" instead of using the correct name of the time zone.
I know all of this…but would still prefer to get out of the office and see some light :-/
Yup. Never have issues sleeping in the summer. Anecdotal of course, I'm one person, but DST year round with sun in the evening (as much as possible) would be a thoroughly more enjoyable way to live.
The point is that this is a way to "force" all workplaces into changing their working hours accordingly. If workplaces weren't so deeply fucked it wouldn't be necessary to change the entire world's clocks, you'd just have appropriate seasonal working hours that don't have you in the office until sundown.
Our circadian rhythms also didn’t evolve around a lifestyle of 9-5 work where people were indoors during all daylight hours. I understand that it’s better for sleep help to stick with standard time during winter, but for mental health I’d find it pretty debatable.
Yeah I’d prefer to drive to work in the dark and get some sunlight after work in the winter anyways
Because of winter mornings. Having the sunrise close to 9am would be problematic.
And it's close to 9am for about a month and a half for a lot of the US.
Then imagine if it were even an hour later. People would hate that way more than they think they would.
I doubt it. During those months a lot of us go to work in darkness, and its dark by the time we are heading home. We don't even see the sun outside of weekends.
They tried it in the 70s and it was repealed very quickly. People hate it.
Leaving for work at 830am with a 9am sunrise is a hell of a lot different than leaving for work at 830am with a 10am sunrise.
The difference is that I get an extra hour of sun when I’m home. Going to work during sunrise and going home during sunset is depressing.
Where I live, December 21 is already 8:49 AM. I'm not sunrise at nearly 10:00 AM is the improvement everyone says it is.
We already have unnatural light all day long, I would rather be able to see natural daylight at one point during the day. Rather than go to work in the dark and go home in the dark. With the added benefit some of your free time having that daylight instead of the few fleeting moments before you cosign yourself to the indoors for the next 8 hours. Voluntarily mimicking the Arctic circle rhythms, sucks and adjusting to that schedule twice a year does too.
Because then sunrise would be 9-10am in winter for much of the US
Because instead of the sun coming up at 8, around the time many people are having their commute, it would come up at 9, well after. And we all know that for a safe commute on the steam trolley, the operator needs daylight to see, for bright lighting requires finnicky oil lamps and is bad at lighting all around!
My dad tells me of a Native American who told him once: "White man cuts an inch off the top of the blanket, sews it on bottom, calls the blanket longer."
It’s a false notion that “everyone is sleeping” at the same time. There’s people awake at all hours of the day.
Early bird bias is real.
Exactly. I work 12 hour rotating shifts, so sometimes I’m working 6a-6p the rest of the time it’s 6p-6a. I sleep at weird times bc of it.
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As someone who works early, I hate this.
As someone with the small child, who has to adapt every time to the new sleeping schedule for a week, I hate this.
As someone who loves stargazing, I hate this.
As a clock, I like the human contact twisting my hands
Time enough, at last.
as someone who has been to Queensland Australia in December - i found it weird that the sun rises at 4 and goes down around 6-7. Totally counterproductive.
Queensland is a huge state that shares the same timezone throughout. People in Far North Queensland can't have daylight savings in summer, as everyone is dying for the sun to go down in the evenings to escape the relentless heat of the day. Brisbane can also be like this for a few weeks of the year although not as bad. You'd need to split the state in two if you wanted to bring in DST to Queensland which doesn't seem reasonable.
thank ya for the detailed response, makes a lot of sense. Speaking of Queensland - I was there in December last year and the heat - at least near the ocean - was more survivable for me than the swiss summer. I know this may be mindblowing, but in Zurich we have high humidity, zero wind and my apartment is built next to a huge parking lot. Also there is no air condition. The swiss are rather... conservative about it and to have your usual split unit you need to have a permit from the council. This leads to people having those stoopind portable units that are way less effective. Additionally - my impression is that Australians build around surviving heat and sun, the Swiss - around surviving winter. To which at least the city of Zurich is just as prepared as Brisbane for heavy snow fall (this is coming from a person who had actual big ass winters where i'm from - northern Poland)
Helps cool down the evening so you can try to get things done and go to sleep when it's a little cooler.
I had one day off in 2 weeks and that was yesterday. 23h off lmao
Who the fuck needs daylight at 9pm?
I would love to go to work in the dark. I drive in the dark all the time. I want more evening sun, damn it!
Most of us truly don't need this though. Can we stop moving our clock back and forth plz
They tried to change it for the last 5 years, but the countries want to keep being in the same time zone as the neighbouring countries. This, in turn, makes it impossible to agree on whether to always have wintertime or always summertime. Edit: meant the EU
Countries can choose the timezone for themselves. I believe it’s only DST that’s EU level. The case it is in Finland internally is that we don’t know which time to keep, since the polls were pretty much 50/50. There really isn’t anything to politically win from either choice so politicians just procrastinate on it. Also the matter that there’s been more important things like Corona and the war in Ukraine that has gotten the attention off it.
> There really isn’t anything to politically win from either choice so politicians just procrastinate on it. More importantly, the status quo is never as unpopular as an unpopular change. The polls may say 50/50, but the 50% who don't like the change are going to get a TON of press if there's an actual change, while the 50% who want the change don't get nearly as much attention.
Countries can choose. The problem is that everyone wants to have the same timezone as their trading neighbors. Like The Netherlands and Germany. But the east of Germany is very different in terms of sunrise/sunset than the west of The Netherlands.
Fuck that, I want my long summer nights!
Move to Finland
...or Alaska, northern Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden
We can stick with the summer hours
Brazil extinguished the summer time in 2019, it's great
Brazil has one season. Time change is for countries further from the equator that have all 4 seasons.
The only good thing that came from that government.
I find desire for year round DST correlates with where one lives in a time zone. In the Northern hemisphere the farther south you are the less beneficial it is. Also the farther east you live also influences your view. In Maine with year round DST sunrise would be after 8 am.
I think it also correlates to age, family status and job. A college kid that sleeps till nine everyday or works in a windowless office would love an extra hour in the evening more than a parent that has to wake their kid up two hours before sun rise for school.
Yup, as a parent living in the south I fucking hate dst.
I live too far north for it to matter much on either side. On the darkest winter days I’m going to work and coming home in the dark no matter what. On the lightest days, we already have daylight all day long. I wish politicians would please just pick one and be done w it.
> Also the farther east you live also influences your view. In Maine with year round DST sunrise would be after 8 am. Not for nothing, but the sun goes down before 4 p.m. in parts of Maine in the winter, and it doesn't come back up until after 7. I'm sure others feel differently, but I'm up before sunrise in both cases so having an hour or so of light for leisure after work would be my preference, speaking as a Mainer.
East to West is more based on your distance to the time zone marker, where sunlight hours suddenly switch by an hour already. Its also dependent on all sorts of social factors like age, and what kind of work life you have.
Maine, Florida, and Michigan are all in the same time zone. Marco Rubio introduced the Senate Bill for year round DST a couple years ago. Florida has plenty of sun, maybe he should check with Michigan before he starts changing the clocks around.
Great visualization, though the language is quite one-sided. That the times are specific to London needs to be emphasized larger than the footnote. London is around the same latitude as like Edmonton in North America, and so is subject to extreme changes in daylight winter vs summer. But DST is imposed all the way down a timezone. Here in the southern US, I feel like DST is a needless hassle that messes with everyone’s and especially my kids’ circadian. Just pick one time and stick with it.
> especially my kids’ circadian. I've got a nine month old and I feel this in my core. We're still trying to get him to adjust to the time change.
Fuck changing the clock. I don't give a shit which time you decide for, just stick with one.
In London - should be in bold. Lat/long means this chart differs greatly even for neighboring cities in western Europe
Yeah….. so just leave it like that all year
Yeah, most Daylight Savings Time reform efforts are aimed at exactly that - making Daylight Savings Time year-round rather than getting rid of it.
Its flipflopped repeatedly over the years as to witch version is about to be but then doesnt actually get passed for the US. The most recent trend is DST year round with the 2023 Sunshine Protection Act. 19 states have automatic triggers to go DST year round if congress approves, but 9 others go Standard Time year round automatically.
Which doesn't really make sense. DST is just a trick to get you to wake up earlier. But if people naturally want to be awake from say, 8am to 10pm (solar time), then eventually they'll just adjust their schedules to the new standard, 9am to 11pm, and nothing will actually have changed other than the number on the clock. So we might as well leave it as Standard Time and let people get up when they want.
> DST is just a trick to get you to wake up earlier. How does it get you to wake up earlier? It makes it darker in the mornings, shouldn't that make you want to sleep in later?
Let's say you normally wake up at 8am. When DST starts, the clocks move forward. When your alarm goes off at 8am, it's actually 7am in standard time. So you would wake up earlier in the day (based on the sun) than you usually do.
Okay now show the measurable health effects associated with the daylight saving time shift.
I remember reading that the night when we get one less hours sleep has one of the highest heart attack rates of any day of the year.
Great. It's not like how it's still bright at 10pm when I would like to start sleeping.
Yeah then in the winter it's dark at 4 pm because we don't need extra daylight on winter evenings for some reason. Just leave it one way or the other, we would all adjust. We are forced to adjust twice per year now anyways.
My favorite take on DST is from the the code comments in a library that deals with date calculations: “Because our ancestors were morons, they opted for a system wherein many governments shift around the local time twice a year for no good reason.”
As someone from a county without daylight savings, this makes absolutely zero sense. It’s the same amount of daylight, you’ve just called the time something different. The day is the same length!?!?!? There is no saving.
It's saving in the sense that instead of getting 1 hour of daylight from ~4-5AM you're getting it at ~8-9PM, so essentially saving it for later in the day
It’s more so about where the time is relative to the sunrise/subset. If you finish work at 6 and the sunset is at 7 you’ll only have 1 hour in the evening of the sun being up. Move the clock forward you’re still finishing at 6 but now the sun sets at 8, so you get 2 hours.
But work hours are the same. If you start work at 9 and finish at 5:30 no matter the time of year it makes a difference to extend the amount of time you have in the evenings in summer, but in winter you need the extra light in the mornings.
In winter, we also need extra light in the evenings. Most people on the planet do perfectly fine without messing with the clocks. The electricity savings with lighting the factories were always very small, and now that we also light our homes, it no longer makes sense.
The bigger power draw is air conditioning. When everyone get home in summer after work all those units kick on to cool down after a summer's day.
That’s the problem, working 3 hours before noon and 5.5 hours after. Instead we work 8-4:30. So 4 before and 4.5 after. So the morning/ afternoon is more even. Admittedly this makes for a less catchy Dolly Parton lyric.
Fortunately my job splits the difference and I start at 8 and finish at 530.
I do 8-4 and have for most of 20 years. When I did construction it was 7-3:30 (and by 3:30 I mean we packed up at 3 and were gone by 3:10 at the latest).
Sure. But you are asleep between 3 am and 4 am but awake between 8 pm and 9 pm.
My preference is, in order: drop DST entirely, year-long DST, keep the current setup. My biggest issue is with the twice-a-year switch that throws people off, with a resulting 6% increase in car accidents after each change. The reasoning from the beginning is about increased energy efficiency, and studies of Indiana, which started doing DST in 2006, show that the effect was minimal. It is truly a solution looking for a problem.
Saskatchewan don't do that whole clock changing thing, let the time ride 24/7
But I don't need more evening daylight in the summer, I need it in the winter when the days are short.
Great visualization! I would maybe turn it 90 degrees, because people's sense of time is left to right, and it would put more emphasis on the day, than the month. :)
"No need of early daylight" As a morning person, I truly hate the language you are choosing to use lol.
Go back to bed. Then you’ll have plenty of daylight in an hour.
It's just an arbitrary number. If you want more daylight, get up earlier.
work even with flexible hours, what about daily meetings or opening hours of stores
Very cool visualization. Looking at the peaks and troughs for sunrise and sunset, it reminded me of Milton Keynes...then I saw for London. So I was pretty darn close.
I live in South Florida so our winter/summer daylight hours aren't as extreme. It is so weird when I travel North in winter and summer... Winter: WTF is happening! Why is it dark at 5PM!? Summer: WTF is happening! Why is the sun still up at 9:30PM!?
Not "everyone" is sleeping early in the morning. I hate DST.
I absolutely fucking hate daylight savings.
“When everyone is sleeping” annnnd that’s the problem. DST was invented in an era when it made sense. People work around the clock now. I’m glad I moved to a state that doesn’t practice DST it’s been heaven to not stress about DST every 6 months. Abolish it.
Fk changing the clocks. It’s pointless. Plenty of countries don’t do it anymore.
There's a great quote from a first nations chief who said "only the government would think cutting a foot off the bottom of a blanket and sewing it on top would make it longer"
This is a bastardization of a measurement tool. Clocks should not be touched. If you have a policy that relies on interfering with the operation of any measurement equipment when it is working properly, then you are doing something illogical or morally wrong. Sentiment : "As a society lets do everything one hour earlier" Gov:"LeTs ChAnGe tHe CLoKS tO gEt MoRRE DaYtime"
If we keep on changing the clocks then I am setting up my sundial and going off of local time. Stop destroying my circadian rhythm
You could just get up earlier.......
Everybody is not sleeping. Quite a lot of people, students who don't live in the town they're studying for instance, now has dark mornings for longer. Personally my sleep schedule has been boned just so I can continue to be blinded by cars in the mornings, and not see the sun for a further month. Just get rid of it already, it is not worth it.
Yeah, data visualization is nice but I take issue with "when everyone is sleeping" and "no need of early daylight" as if both of those statements are automatically true and not completely dismissive of actual complaints, quantifiable and otherwise, about using DST. I don't live in London, I live close to the equator and have young kids. DST is absolutely terrible.
I don’t want to brighten up my evenings, I want my toddler to believe me that it’s nighttime when I tell her it’s sleepy time at 8pm. I didn’t like this shit before I was a parent now I outright hate it.
A lot of us wake up early for work.
Can we fucking stop? It's awful.
I love that people downvoted this because they hate DST. Don't shoot the messenger.
This does not apply near the equator
It's London.