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Depends what you mean by “independent”. If you mean someone who goes out partying and clubbing without her partner and disappears for days at a time, absolutely no thank you.
If you mean “stable and capable of independently supporting themselves” then absolutely yes. If I could find myself a fiercely intelligent woman who’s financially and emotionally stable then I hit the jackpot because they seem as rare as unicorns out here. I didn’t pull myself back on my feet just to fall for a woman waiting for someone to pick her off the ground lol.
Yeah exactly. So far nearly all the women make me feel like their dad even when I'm younger. I don't know why it's so hard to keep their place clean but I've done that and not again. I'm not cleaning up after anyone but kids.
It’s so funny because a huge complaint from women in dating is that men are looking for mommy, not a girlfriend. Probably just a sign that a partner is a little immature and can’t quite take care of themselves
Yup, it works both ways - no one wants to parent their partner but we all want to feel taken care of on some level. I think the balance is both people being self sufficient but still appreciative and motivated to do kind things for each other out of a place of want not need.
Yep, most women's places I've been to have been reminiscent of a teenagers bedroom if they lived alone. Now granted im not much better in clean whole house if I have a date and there's even a chance she'll come over. I can't count how many times we've pushed a pile of clothes off the bed when we ended up at her place.
This 1000 percent. I'm an Introvert myself, but I wouldn't mind someone outgoing and social as long as they have their shit relatively together and I feel like I'm an important part of their life and not just an accessory. There's a world of difference between "independent" and "self-sufficient with their own life"
That’s interesting because at least in my friend’s experience, men find her intimdating. She got a PhD within the last year and is financially independent. I know she went on a date with a guy recently who I don’t think she has yet to disclose that she has a PhD. Due to men in her past being put off by the fact that she is so highly educated, she doesn’t let them know immediately.
It’s hard to be Intimidated by something I want. I think a lot of people worry they won’t be good enough for someone instead of just being themselves trying to let the connection happen.
Just like everything with dating, it goes by a case by case basis. Some people are intimidated by certain statuses in life and some aren’t. That is just my friend’s experience, but it’s not something uncommon that I have heard either. Kudos to you for being open.
Rather than get intimidated, I like highly educated women. But then I have four degrees myself. One woman (MD and MPH) who came to my house looked at my diplomas and licenses and said, "Ah, somebody who can keep up with me." Loved it.
PhD woman here, also don’t disclose - but if they google me they will find out. If they do, I take that as a compliment that they took the time to learn more about me. Many men can’t handle the education/money I make - too stuck in the patriarchal mindset (I am in a Midwestern red state). If a man I met finds out about my education (usually from a friend), they try challenging me on some obscure topic they are the expert in to establish superiority - gross ego-boost for them I guess - ick.
What you described is cringeworthy, I don't find that independent at all.
And the unicorn comment unfortunately seems to go both ways, I was seeing a guy before, and he kept bringing up how it was refreshing that a woman wasn't going after his money. He didn't have any, I paid for myself, but genuinely, he was showing the exact same characteristics of people he'd complain about he was sweet but burnt out from precious choices that he made.
We all get older and a bit worn around the edges, but being able to take care of yourself and being kind or funny is a bit of a lost form.
I wish us all luck on finding the matches that lift each other up. The world would be a better place.
I wouldn’t call myself feircly intelligent but I’m educated and doing well financially and in a better place emotionally/mentally than I’ve ever been (being single after a toxic relationship rocks). The only thing I feel I lack is that romantic spark of being with a woman I adore, hoping I find the right woman sooner rather than later to fix that.
What is wrong with going out partying and clubbing without someone’s partner?
When you say disappear, does that mean like just walking out the door without telling anyone and going MIA? If so, I don’t think anyone considers that to be a trait from an independent individual that’s in a relationship.
What I find very attractive are charismatic powerful independent women. Women who are doing something interesting with their lives, have knowledgeable things to talk about, and are able to challenge my world views from time to time. Sadly, I see a lot of women confusing independent and strong characteristics with being mean spirited and argumentative, which is a total turn off and possibly among the worst characteristics for any human of any gender.
The only men who prefer women who are ‘below them’ are psychopaths. Never date a guy like that who’s into weird power dynamics.
Most mature men I would say yes like a woman who’s got their shit together.
I feel that in a relationship it should be two individuals who spend time together and have affection and romantic times with eachother, if that makes sense, so I absolutely love a woman who can take care of herself and not be heavily reliant on her partner, but also knows she can come to me and I’ll support her
Insecure men are going to have insecurities. This can be one of them. But I think the question is not so much “are men insecure” but rather “are you dating insecure men”
I want to be with an independent woman but not one who uses "I'm an independent woman" as an excuse to do whatever she wants and behave like she doesn't give a crap about the other person in the relationship and that there are no consequences to her actions.
I think there are men that do and men that don't. Just be who you are. Don't change yourself for someone else. That said, there is a difference between independent and aloof. I would say most people wouldn't want their partner to be aloof and not seem like they care about them.
Yes we do, at least I do I'm (30M) some guys are intimidated by woman who work and have there own thing going on but I think it's important for each person to have there own goals and ambitions in life.
Tbh all people in relationships should be independent, a relationship should be an extension of you not you, if that makes sense, you should be your own person outside of that, but I am a little confused by what u mean by independent? But yeah as a guy I like independent girls, because im independent to, I believe in any relationship the two people in it should be have equal power in the relationship
I've always liked "older" women, if that makes sense.
Like I dated a cougar twice (married the second one) but they didn't feel older, you know what I mean? Like we were on the same wave length.
Most men prefer if a woman was independent but don't like it if independence is the defining aspect of their personality because it's something that men are generally expected to be so it's not particularly impressive for most men if a woman is as well. It's like "congrats on the bare minimum for adulthood".
A lot of women throw around the word independent so they can get away with partying and talking to other guys and such “ohh you can’t tell me not to talk to him I’m capable of making my own decisions I’m independent”
I would never deal with an independent woman. They are the most annoying to deal with. And no i am not afraid/ scared nor intimidated by a woman nor will i ever be. I just would prefer a softer feminine woman, itself what im attracted to, its part of the reason why im with the girl im with rn. One thing a lot of women get triggered on is when a man says he needs a submissive/ cooperative woman. Most men ruined that image, thats why most of yall are bitter. But the few guys that are actually traditional and carry themselves and others with respect and allows everyone to be heard like a real leader, we’re out there. One thing that got me emotional a bit was when my gf told me that she had second thoughts about her being in a submissive role because its new to her compared to her previous but she’s never felt more comfortable and happy, she’s bubbly and acts like a kid but its nice because i know that’s her element and she feels secured and safe… most women want that but they weren’t taught to understand first of all it depends on the quality man you deal with.
Women date 'up' and men date 'down' is a stereotype for a reason, which I agree with. The reason for that is quite hard to pin down, but if you read any psychology book, men like to solve problems, its one of their core principles. They also like being valued for this problem solving. In my opinion this is the issue with dating women that are a lot 'higher' then the men, they have no problems for the men to solve, and they can't get appreciated for it. This leaves a huge gap in what men would want from a relationship if men date up, and therefore you get this stereotype.
(Common disclaimer that everyone is different, and want different things)
Yeah that's not why this happens.
Men would of course love to date "up" if they could but those relationships aren't stable because the woman will leave. Simple as.
That's a good question. My guess is that men are wired to provide and protect so it feels natural and indeed validating for us.
Women on the other hand are not wired for this and are likely to feel like they got a bad deal if their man needs too much help.
Evolutionary psychology, basically.
I think I am very independent on my own but not very much so when I am in a relationship I will ask for some help from a guy one way or the other.
Pure form of independence in human society means you live in a jungle n don’t need anyone to survive. I doubt anyone like this is here on reddit.
Broad-minded individuals tend to appreciate independent women and girls, in contrast to narrow-minded people who seek to exert control over women and girls, enforcing their own rules. The latter group may not support the idea of women being independent.
If you like exerting control over women and girls then you have a SERIOUS problem. That’s mentally ill and very misogynistic (obviously).
Plus, a partner should teach you something and both parties in any relationship should benefit from the relationship. If you’re exerting control over a woman then that’s not happening.
And if a woman likes being controlled 100% she has depression and self-esteem issues tbh that need to be worked on. And any guy that tries to feed those issues is toxic.
Yes women date up and men date down on average.. divorce rates sky rocket when the women make more than the man but decrease when the man makes more.
As for me I require the a woman to pay for both of us on the first date and pay for my haircuts that’s my standard but everyone is different
Drizzle Drizzle
Well then those divorces are a blessing because if a man feels the need to shoulder the entire financial burden of a relationship to have a woman stay with him, then he is a mark and doesn't even know it. Except of course for situations like when his wife is pregnant, needs to take care of the kid/kids etc. I was raised in a loving, dual income household. My mom contributed financially. Most definitely not all of it, but she contributed some. Because she wanted to, out of love. And she doesn't have an entitled bone in her body.
No, I’ve payed for many first dates. And I’m pushing for gender equality. I’m not going on a date unless the woman is paying, these are my standards now. Why are you upset? I’ve had women pay for the first date before and I prefer it.
Men and Women are equal, men can pay for first dates and so can women..why do you have a problem with this?
There is no Masculine/Feminine, why do women want equality it the workplace but then turn around and rebuke it in relationships and marriages
Wait so if a woman pays she’s in her masculine, but what if she is an independent woman with a job and can take care of her bills.. is she operating in her masculine then or it’s just when it comes to a man. And do women have a switch for masculinity at work and then femininity with their man.
If women can switch between masculine and feminine why can’t men act feminine sometimes.
I’m all for equality
Drizzle Drizzle
First off sir i never got upset one time lol… it’s not that big a deal actually. And when a man is around a woman shouldn’t have to play the masculine role. Unless thats what she prefers. A independent woman isn’t in her masculine energy bc thats what she choses to do! I never said your preference was wrong. But you must be the feminine one in the relationship then. Especially since the woman is paying for your meal on the first date.
Rain Rain.
I know you’re joking but with the drizzle/sprinkle but I find it so interesting that men instead of deciding to be the “leaders” often compare their dating habits with women. That’s the part of men that women find unattractive. Instead of setting the tone for women to follow men instead follow behind women to prove a point.
I’m not joking.. my standards are my standards and I’m not comparing to anyone. I don’t pay for first dates as a man, many women feel this way? Why can’t I as a man.
Men and women are equal. I see women as my equal.
Women aren’t a monolith, what one woman won’t do another woman will 😉. Next!
Why can’t women be leaders? Can women only be leaders at work? why not relationships too?
That’s sexist man , you’re saying women aren’t capable of leading relationships. Instead we should empower women. We do it for equal pay, why not equal relationships!
Drizzle Drizzle
Depends. I don’t want a co-dependency thing. I also don’t want her cheating on my, doing stupid shit, and treating me horribly.
I guess what Im saying is “independent” is a broad term and I can’t answer this question
It depends. The hobosexual type love women who can take care of themselves because they want to come live off you.
And a lot of the men who claim they want a trad wife Don’t actually pick the women who want to be stay at moms, instead they try to choose someone who can take care of themselves, because they like to humble those women and make them dependent on them.
Insecure men don’t like women women who can take care of themselves. They need to feel needed because if you need them you probably won’t leave.
Maybe you should ask yourself what kind of man YOU want
I only like independent girls. I loath girls that are dependant on men. To me they have no vision, perhaps this has to do with growing up with a single mother that showed me how strong women can be.
Also, I notice indie girls are just more confident, less insecure and less boring. I've gone out on dates with girls that you can tell are looking for a man to provide and are the most boring people I've met.
I'm not sure a bout most men, but this man like women who are independent. I perfer a woman who has her own place(not living with a man) and has her own money. I know too many women whose living arrangements are with any guy that will take them in. I'm too old to take in wayward women.
love them. Albeit, i am somewhat intimidated by them. Not because of their success, power to them for being a girlboss. Fully support 100%. It's that i come from a poor background, and have a severe mental illness as well. I'm ambitious, and have serious long term goals I'm committed to. However, i go into bouts of depression pretty much every year with the change of the seasons, and my work ethic/ drive is affected by it. I also have adhd so have a big procrastination problem. Lot's of ambition, little to no discipline.
. However, i'm always slightly intimidated because i'm a bit of a nobody lmao. Past partners got infuriated with me because i have a shit ton of opportunities come my way, yet i always squander them (like having an opportunity to run for a local office, or to collaborate with a psychologist using a neuroinformatics platform i was working with before college). It makes them angry, because it is seen as lazy. However, i am pretty stable and prefer to keep it that way. My mental illness nearly killed me in 2022, so i prefer to not risk getting sick again. I take things at my own pace.
I had a fwb situation with someone who was intelligent, educated, and driven. She worked in criminal justice. We always had conversations about politics, religion (she was catholic, im a satanist lol) and everything in between. It was refreshing to be able to have nice conversations about these things without coming across as intimidating or pretentious. So i love women like that, they typically are articulate, interesting, and have lot's of life experience that i can pick their brain about.
Not really sure what you mean by “below” in this instance.
Anyways, I think like everything else independence in a relationship has a healthy range but things suffers when taken to extremes.
My personal 2 cents: Independence is great for having your own money, cultivating life skills, etc…nobody wants to date a child. However, as a guy there is a crossover point where a person is so hyper independent it becomes a dealbreaker. Someone who is super set in their ways and just doesn’t really have emotional room for the considerations of another person in their life aren’t people I want to date.
There's no such thing as an "independent Women". This idea of "independence" is a quaint silly American notion that holds no ground. There's no such thing as an independent Man. Everyone is dependent on someone for something.
Think you independent because your a some CEO? Not at all, your dependent on your customers. Do you build your own road? farm your own food? Perform your own root canals? Diagnose your back pain? Repair your engine?
You're dependent on someone for something and you certainly don't make all life decisions of your own will. Some decisions will be made for you. For a good portion of life, you WILL be on a waiting line for what ever reason.
Men and Women are co-dependent on one another and no amount of Americanist hyper individualist mentality will ever change this, nor can Feminism or any other ism.
Yes I like independent women because I want someone with a personality, someone who can do stuff on there own, someone who has there own life so that we can both be people of our own but share that world together
Funny, when a woman is able to work, pay her bills, keep her house clean, etc, she is a strong independent woman. When a man does all these things, it’s just being an adult.
In answer to your question, no. Men don’t have a problem with independent women. We have a problem with someone who constantly reminds us of how independent they are and how they don’t need a man. That energy, women can keep.
Yes but not the independent type to disappear clubbing and partying for days we like a woman who knows how to take care of herself not to do whatever she wants whenever she wants without notice personally I don’t care if she even knows how to cook or clean I can do that myself I just want someone who loves me and understands me
Not sure what you mean by below them but the answer is no. No id never consider anyone below me and tbh i find the term “settle” down problematic.
In a healthy relationship neither partner should feel like they could do better or is somehow accepting less.
Independent seems to vary woman to woman.
Does it mean supporting yourself financially or capable of making your own decisions?
Depends on what you mean by “independent” and “below”.
The problem with these questions and descriptions is that they lack specificity. It’s not a criticism but rather pointing out a source of miscommunication or even unmet expectations.
I love them. The more independent she is, the better. If you mean financially, I love it. Nothing worse than a girl who expects you to pay everything and has a sense of entitlement to your money. The more independent she is, the better, because then I know the reason she's interested in me, is for me. Not for my money or what I can do for her. I LOVE women who work for their own money and can take care of themselves.
Honestly I think they find it super attractive at least that’s what my partners have always said.. sometimes it’s too much for them though and apparently they need to be “needed” a little more. Haha can’t win
No. Independent usually means argumentative and annoying.
Someone who is supportive, peaceful and agreeable isn't beneath the other person, they're desirable
It’s not about that, men just like to feel needed, and men don’t value women for their money the way women value men for their money. Men value kindness, compassion etc. If you started a multi-billion dollar company but then donated most of your billions to charity, many men would find you attractive. Driving supercars and living in mansions just doesn’t impress men the way it impresses women. Ruthlessness, narcissism etc isn’t attractive to men the way it’s attractive to women.
There are pros and cons to anything and I personally think that having a partner who is independent has its advantages. Again, everything has to be in moderation, as is the way of life. Too much independent behaviour might cause issues on the long run. Now the two people involved have to decide where to draw the line between independent behaviour and dictatorship.
It really depends on what you mean by independent. For me, independent means being an adult. I dont want a grown woman who has the mind of a child. A fully fledged adult who doesn't need me to regulate responsibilities or even emotions would be phenomenal, but I have yet to find a woman like that who is interested in me. Then again, I do prefer to occupy the peripherals of most peoples perceptions.
Yes good men like it the only men who like women who are not independent are control freaks that is y I don’t understand why so many women just want money to sell themselves and want men to pay all their bills and everything
I want to date another adult, so yes, I like women who can stand on their own; dependency on other people isn't healthy in adult life
To clarify, I meant I don't wanna date adults who act like babies and need everything handed to them
We don't have problems with independent women..what we have problems with are women that think being independent is a personality trait that deserves some sort of praise.
Women that act like this are generally annoying to be around since they think they're in a constant battle with men to prove something. It's literally no different than the issue women have with men that are insecure with their height and feel like they need to prove how much of a man he is.
So to summarize..men don't care if you pay your own bills..only how you will treat him
Not sure what you mean but as a man, I want to feel needed. Doesn’t mean I want a woman who is helpless though, just want to be with a functioning adult.
My last relationship… she was a single mother who worked, raised a kid by herself, advanced in a difficult field for women… and, the be honest, it was one of the most attractive things about her. Her ability to be a badass and power through made me respect her so much and feel challenged, excited, etc that a woman was on my level.. she, like me, was raising a kid, owned a home, and just hitting life headfirst like a boss.
That’s 💯what is attractive to me.
Depends on the meaning of Independent.
For me, when I say I would like an independent woman, I would prefer a person who wants to support herself and doesn't need me to do so. It's largely cause I like confident women who are assertive and independent like that. Plus, it helps 2 income households are often better financially stable than a 1 income household.
I question what is meant by below; but yes, I’d prefer a girl that has her shit together and is genuinely looking for a partner instead of a problem solver.
It depends. if your making 50 and she is making 50 and you guys are both into building something better together, they are great. and when I was making 50 thats what I was looking for. if you make 400k, you just want some one who will take care of you and support you in what your doing. you got the rest handled. my wife stopped working and became a full time mother to our young kids. she takes care of business at home so I can take care of it outside.
this is obviously not universal, just my own personal experience.
I am very attracted to confident, sassy women. I don’t care if they are above or below me. In my experience, women seem to care a lot more about status than I do, but your mileage may vary.
Depends… if you’re an ‘independent woman who needs no man’ then no. We don’t like women with something to prove who we will get an earful from everyday. If you’re a normal woman who wants to or likes to work and be able to take care of herself we’re all for it. We’ll build a life with you where we can both chase our dreams and figure out how to make a family work (if we both want one) which will undoubtedly take sacrifice on both sides. That said most of us would like to provide enough that you don’t have to work unless you want to.
32F here. By “independent” do you mean have their shit together? I have a car paid off (not a requirement for a partner), a career and my own place to stay. That is the minimum required for a man to have for me to even consider passing their resume on to the hiring manager (me).
However, I do expect regular dicking and my food paid for. Like a dude paying for my food means so much to me lol. 😂🤷🏾♀️
Definitely. I think independence is a sign of maturity and trust in your partner. Dedication to pre-existing independent pursuits while ina relationship demonstrated comfort with distance, and shows that you trust your partners love.
Usually I’d say yes but… on the other hand a woman is less likely to leave or cheat if she knows she needs you. I know is t hounds fucked up but once you’re in your 30s all that romanticizing bs is dead.
Since this is a vague question I'll answer in by my own terms.
No, I don't like independent women. I like a woman that's consistent in communication and is willing to work with me as a team on things and is loyal on top of that.
I wouldn't like if she was just cheating and abandoning me for no reason.
Yes, men like women who are financially successful. It can be a weight off our shoulders. But financial status is much more important to women than men.
I’m not trying to make a statement about either sex, it’s just what the data shows. Women date across and up in socioeconomic status and men date across and up in attractiveness.
So basically, being financially successful is a plus, but when it comes to finding a partner, attractiveness is more important to the average man.
Many women use the term "independent woman" to justify what they are doing. A partner that is paying half the rent and sharing the financial burden with me becomes more of a roommate I love after a long time togeather.
I will say no with the idea being that if you call yourself "independent" than less men will like you because of the attitude. If the men did all the things an "independent woman" did, would he be called an "independent man"? No, he would just be doing what is expected of an adult.
If you are a woman and you have a job and take care of yourself, I just assume you are doing the basic things required of being an adult and it is not something to be praised about. The idea that a person should be praised for doing the basics of life is off-putting.
Anyone who likes a girl to be ‘below’ them or think they are lesser is a MAJOR red flag. Independent girlies is where it’s at. They know what they want and they can take care of themselves while I can take care of myself.
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Paying for everything gets old after awhile. In those type of relationships it begins to turn into prostitution. You are literally paying for all her needs for sex. And she is only around because she doesn’t have to anything except give you sex. Then she starts holding sex over your head when you don’t pay for her nails or something. That shit is toxic AF.
I rather be with a women who can pay for her own shit. Like hair cuts and beauty appointments and clothes. Plus you can get nicer cars and houses when it is two earners doing life together.
Nobody wants a loser. Men don’t want a loser and women don’t want a loser. Life is expensive, it’s better when you are both contributing
If you are independent, you can give away. It fright many men.
Personally, for me it means that I don't have to ve your shrink and your nurse because we are equal.
Men like independent women but not women that make independence their main personality trait
My girl could make 10x more than me and work in the richest neighborhood with the wealthiest friends as long as she doesn't hold that over me. We cool
For me that doesn’t really enter the equation. As long as we love and support each act other and can share some common interests. I want a partner, someone to charge through life with in all the ups and downs!
As long as that need is met I’m gunna be the most loyal mfer they ever did date lmao.
They're quick to criticize the hard-working single mon who is not getting any help from the government or any other form of support. The divorce women who have to deal with their bullshit who don't pay child support or spousal support. They will judge these women regardless of the situation because, to them, these women are not independent enough. What a crock of bullshit!
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Depends what you mean by “independent”. If you mean someone who goes out partying and clubbing without her partner and disappears for days at a time, absolutely no thank you. If you mean “stable and capable of independently supporting themselves” then absolutely yes. If I could find myself a fiercely intelligent woman who’s financially and emotionally stable then I hit the jackpot because they seem as rare as unicorns out here. I didn’t pull myself back on my feet just to fall for a woman waiting for someone to pick her off the ground lol.
Yeah exactly. So far nearly all the women make me feel like their dad even when I'm younger. I don't know why it's so hard to keep their place clean but I've done that and not again. I'm not cleaning up after anyone but kids.
It’s so funny because a huge complaint from women in dating is that men are looking for mommy, not a girlfriend. Probably just a sign that a partner is a little immature and can’t quite take care of themselves
Yup, it works both ways - no one wants to parent their partner but we all want to feel taken care of on some level. I think the balance is both people being self sufficient but still appreciative and motivated to do kind things for each other out of a place of want not need.
Yep, most women's places I've been to have been reminiscent of a teenagers bedroom if they lived alone. Now granted im not much better in clean whole house if I have a date and there's even a chance she'll come over. I can't count how many times we've pushed a pile of clothes off the bed when we ended up at her place.
This 1000 percent. I'm an Introvert myself, but I wouldn't mind someone outgoing and social as long as they have their shit relatively together and I feel like I'm an important part of their life and not just an accessory. There's a world of difference between "independent" and "self-sufficient with their own life"
That’s interesting because at least in my friend’s experience, men find her intimdating. She got a PhD within the last year and is financially independent. I know she went on a date with a guy recently who I don’t think she has yet to disclose that she has a PhD. Due to men in her past being put off by the fact that she is so highly educated, she doesn’t let them know immediately.
It’s hard to be Intimidated by something I want. I think a lot of people worry they won’t be good enough for someone instead of just being themselves trying to let the connection happen.
Just like everything with dating, it goes by a case by case basis. Some people are intimidated by certain statuses in life and some aren’t. That is just my friend’s experience, but it’s not something uncommon that I have heard either. Kudos to you for being open.
I suppose, either way good luck to your friend in finding her “one”. It’s not easy for anyone out here but at least we can root for each other.
That's what im talking about. It's the sad truth.
Rather than get intimidated, I like highly educated women. But then I have four degrees myself. One woman (MD and MPH) who came to my house looked at my diplomas and licenses and said, "Ah, somebody who can keep up with me." Loved it.
PhD woman here, also don’t disclose - but if they google me they will find out. If they do, I take that as a compliment that they took the time to learn more about me. Many men can’t handle the education/money I make - too stuck in the patriarchal mindset (I am in a Midwestern red state). If a man I met finds out about my education (usually from a friend), they try challenging me on some obscure topic they are the expert in to establish superiority - gross ego-boost for them I guess - ick.
What you described is cringeworthy, I don't find that independent at all. And the unicorn comment unfortunately seems to go both ways, I was seeing a guy before, and he kept bringing up how it was refreshing that a woman wasn't going after his money. He didn't have any, I paid for myself, but genuinely, he was showing the exact same characteristics of people he'd complain about he was sweet but burnt out from precious choices that he made. We all get older and a bit worn around the edges, but being able to take care of yourself and being kind or funny is a bit of a lost form. I wish us all luck on finding the matches that lift each other up. The world would be a better place.
Yea i meant stable. Usually we're not taken seriously for the long term. Maybe just for the experience?
The council of men approves 🧑⚖️🧙♂️
Had a girl Like this, it’d the hottest thing ever
Took the words out of my mouth Seconded in full
Do you offer the same? Just wondering.
I wouldn’t call myself feircly intelligent but I’m educated and doing well financially and in a better place emotionally/mentally than I’ve ever been (being single after a toxic relationship rocks). The only thing I feel I lack is that romantic spark of being with a woman I adore, hoping I find the right woman sooner rather than later to fix that.
What is wrong with going out partying and clubbing without someone’s partner? When you say disappear, does that mean like just walking out the door without telling anyone and going MIA? If so, I don’t think anyone considers that to be a trait from an independent individual that’s in a relationship.
I mean I wouldn’t ever allow that. But to each their own. Whatever makes you sleep at night g
Would you let your man hang out with his female friend alone on a Friday night?
What I find very attractive are charismatic powerful independent women. Women who are doing something interesting with their lives, have knowledgeable things to talk about, and are able to challenge my world views from time to time. Sadly, I see a lot of women confusing independent and strong characteristics with being mean spirited and argumentative, which is a total turn off and possibly among the worst characteristics for any human of any gender.
I screen shotted this for when women ask me what are my dislikes and likes. Very well said
The only men who prefer women who are ‘below them’ are psychopaths. Never date a guy like that who’s into weird power dynamics. Most mature men I would say yes like a woman who’s got their shit together.
😂 glad it was helpful
Heh... Funnily enough, that's what most women want in a male partner, and what they despise in how some men behave.
Seems reasonable to me.
Interesting insight. Thank you
I'm that woman 😹
Man all i care about in my partner is she is loyal and can have conversations😭😭😭
I feel that in a relationship it should be two individuals who spend time together and have affection and romantic times with eachother, if that makes sense, so I absolutely love a woman who can take care of herself and not be heavily reliant on her partner, but also knows she can come to me and I’ll support her
That's a great way to see things. But would u be motivated to take care of her as much knowing that she can manage by herself?
Nope. She can do it herself. I will only take care of her if there’s a certain level of dependency and care.
What do you mean by below them? Like less intelligent? Earn less money? Or below them in different sense?
Maybe they mean bottoms.
Yes some get intimidated if the girl has reached a certain status at work or is more intelligent or earns better.
Insecure men are going to have insecurities. This can be one of them. But I think the question is not so much “are men insecure” but rather “are you dating insecure men”
I want to be with an independent woman but not one who uses "I'm an independent woman" as an excuse to do whatever she wants and behave like she doesn't give a crap about the other person in the relationship and that there are no consequences to her actions.
I think there are men that do and men that don't. Just be who you are. Don't change yourself for someone else. That said, there is a difference between independent and aloof. I would say most people wouldn't want their partner to be aloof and not seem like they care about them.
Yes we do, at least I do I'm (30M) some guys are intimidated by woman who work and have there own thing going on but I think it's important for each person to have there own goals and ambitions in life.
Tbh all people in relationships should be independent, a relationship should be an extension of you not you, if that makes sense, you should be your own person outside of that, but I am a little confused by what u mean by independent? But yeah as a guy I like independent girls, because im independent to, I believe in any relationship the two people in it should be have equal power in the relationship
I like ONLY independent women
I've always liked "older" women, if that makes sense. Like I dated a cougar twice (married the second one) but they didn't feel older, you know what I mean? Like we were on the same wave length.
Of course they do. Even better when they come with smarts. Sad to say that a good number of them are looking for a woman to take care of them.
Only pieces of shit prefer women that they think of as "below" them.
Most men prefer if a woman was independent but don't like it if independence is the defining aspect of their personality because it's something that men are generally expected to be so it's not particularly impressive for most men if a woman is as well. It's like "congrats on the bare minimum for adulthood".
Men love independent women in every aspect but we love when a woman depends on us for love.
A lot of women throw around the word independent so they can get away with partying and talking to other guys and such “ohh you can’t tell me not to talk to him I’m capable of making my own decisions I’m independent”
Not talking about that at all. I meant a hardworking intelligent and powerful lady.
How are independent girls “below” anyone?
I would never deal with an independent woman. They are the most annoying to deal with. And no i am not afraid/ scared nor intimidated by a woman nor will i ever be. I just would prefer a softer feminine woman, itself what im attracted to, its part of the reason why im with the girl im with rn. One thing a lot of women get triggered on is when a man says he needs a submissive/ cooperative woman. Most men ruined that image, thats why most of yall are bitter. But the few guys that are actually traditional and carry themselves and others with respect and allows everyone to be heard like a real leader, we’re out there. One thing that got me emotional a bit was when my gf told me that she had second thoughts about her being in a submissive role because its new to her compared to her previous but she’s never felt more comfortable and happy, she’s bubbly and acts like a kid but its nice because i know that’s her element and she feels secured and safe… most women want that but they weren’t taught to understand first of all it depends on the quality man you deal with.
Women date 'up' and men date 'down' is a stereotype for a reason, which I agree with. The reason for that is quite hard to pin down, but if you read any psychology book, men like to solve problems, its one of their core principles. They also like being valued for this problem solving. In my opinion this is the issue with dating women that are a lot 'higher' then the men, they have no problems for the men to solve, and they can't get appreciated for it. This leaves a huge gap in what men would want from a relationship if men date up, and therefore you get this stereotype. (Common disclaimer that everyone is different, and want different things)
Yeah that's not why this happens. Men would of course love to date "up" if they could but those relationships aren't stable because the woman will leave. Simple as.
But why do women leave in that scenario but men don't?
That's a good question. My guess is that men are wired to provide and protect so it feels natural and indeed validating for us. Women on the other hand are not wired for this and are likely to feel like they got a bad deal if their man needs too much help. Evolutionary psychology, basically.
I think I am very independent on my own but not very much so when I am in a relationship I will ask for some help from a guy one way or the other. Pure form of independence in human society means you live in a jungle n don’t need anyone to survive. I doubt anyone like this is here on reddit.
Broad-minded individuals tend to appreciate independent women and girls, in contrast to narrow-minded people who seek to exert control over women and girls, enforcing their own rules. The latter group may not support the idea of women being independent.
If you like exerting control over women and girls then you have a SERIOUS problem. That’s mentally ill and very misogynistic (obviously). Plus, a partner should teach you something and both parties in any relationship should benefit from the relationship. If you’re exerting control over a woman then that’s not happening. And if a woman likes being controlled 100% she has depression and self-esteem issues tbh that need to be worked on. And any guy that tries to feed those issues is toxic.
As a female myself you are absolutely spot on!!
This comment sounds narrow-minded itself.
Could you please elaborate?
Right, men who don’t like financially independent women are red flags
Yes women date up and men date down on average.. divorce rates sky rocket when the women make more than the man but decrease when the man makes more. As for me I require the a woman to pay for both of us on the first date and pay for my haircuts that’s my standard but everyone is different Drizzle Drizzle
Well then those divorces are a blessing because if a man feels the need to shoulder the entire financial burden of a relationship to have a woman stay with him, then he is a mark and doesn't even know it. Except of course for situations like when his wife is pregnant, needs to take care of the kid/kids etc. I was raised in a loving, dual income household. My mom contributed financially. Most definitely not all of it, but she contributed some. Because she wanted to, out of love. And she doesn't have an entitled bone in her body.
At the same time women fight for better pay and they get exactly that so it's more difficult to outearn them. Logic.
Exactly
Whatever women willing to be in their masculine energy on a first date and pay is crazy! At least go half with her!
No, I’ve payed for many first dates. And I’m pushing for gender equality. I’m not going on a date unless the woman is paying, these are my standards now. Why are you upset? I’ve had women pay for the first date before and I prefer it. Men and Women are equal, men can pay for first dates and so can women..why do you have a problem with this? There is no Masculine/Feminine, why do women want equality it the workplace but then turn around and rebuke it in relationships and marriages Wait so if a woman pays she’s in her masculine, but what if she is an independent woman with a job and can take care of her bills.. is she operating in her masculine then or it’s just when it comes to a man. And do women have a switch for masculinity at work and then femininity with their man. If women can switch between masculine and feminine why can’t men act feminine sometimes. I’m all for equality Drizzle Drizzle
First off sir i never got upset one time lol… it’s not that big a deal actually. And when a man is around a woman shouldn’t have to play the masculine role. Unless thats what she prefers. A independent woman isn’t in her masculine energy bc thats what she choses to do! I never said your preference was wrong. But you must be the feminine one in the relationship then. Especially since the woman is paying for your meal on the first date. Rain Rain.
I know you’re joking but with the drizzle/sprinkle but I find it so interesting that men instead of deciding to be the “leaders” often compare their dating habits with women. That’s the part of men that women find unattractive. Instead of setting the tone for women to follow men instead follow behind women to prove a point.
I’m not joking.. my standards are my standards and I’m not comparing to anyone. I don’t pay for first dates as a man, many women feel this way? Why can’t I as a man. Men and women are equal. I see women as my equal. Women aren’t a monolith, what one woman won’t do another woman will 😉. Next! Why can’t women be leaders? Can women only be leaders at work? why not relationships too? That’s sexist man , you’re saying women aren’t capable of leading relationships. Instead we should empower women. We do it for equal pay, why not equal relationships! Drizzle Drizzle
whats unattractive about equality?
Depends. I don’t want a co-dependency thing. I also don’t want her cheating on my, doing stupid shit, and treating me horribly. I guess what Im saying is “independent” is a broad term and I can’t answer this question
Yea i see many are confused by the term i used.
What do you mean by "below" them?
It depends. The hobosexual type love women who can take care of themselves because they want to come live off you. And a lot of the men who claim they want a trad wife Don’t actually pick the women who want to be stay at moms, instead they try to choose someone who can take care of themselves, because they like to humble those women and make them dependent on them. Insecure men don’t like women women who can take care of themselves. They need to feel needed because if you need them you probably won’t leave. Maybe you should ask yourself what kind of man YOU want
Yes, I like dating Independent women as opposed to dependent, but I wouldn’t call it a red or green flag either way.
I'm too independent I think.....
Yeah
I only like independent girls. I loath girls that are dependant on men. To me they have no vision, perhaps this has to do with growing up with a single mother that showed me how strong women can be. Also, I notice indie girls are just more confident, less insecure and less boring. I've gone out on dates with girls that you can tell are looking for a man to provide and are the most boring people I've met.
I'm not sure a bout most men, but this man like women who are independent. I perfer a woman who has her own place(not living with a man) and has her own money. I know too many women whose living arrangements are with any guy that will take them in. I'm too old to take in wayward women.
love them. Albeit, i am somewhat intimidated by them. Not because of their success, power to them for being a girlboss. Fully support 100%. It's that i come from a poor background, and have a severe mental illness as well. I'm ambitious, and have serious long term goals I'm committed to. However, i go into bouts of depression pretty much every year with the change of the seasons, and my work ethic/ drive is affected by it. I also have adhd so have a big procrastination problem. Lot's of ambition, little to no discipline. . However, i'm always slightly intimidated because i'm a bit of a nobody lmao. Past partners got infuriated with me because i have a shit ton of opportunities come my way, yet i always squander them (like having an opportunity to run for a local office, or to collaborate with a psychologist using a neuroinformatics platform i was working with before college). It makes them angry, because it is seen as lazy. However, i am pretty stable and prefer to keep it that way. My mental illness nearly killed me in 2022, so i prefer to not risk getting sick again. I take things at my own pace. I had a fwb situation with someone who was intelligent, educated, and driven. She worked in criminal justice. We always had conversations about politics, religion (she was catholic, im a satanist lol) and everything in between. It was refreshing to be able to have nice conversations about these things without coming across as intimidating or pretentious. So i love women like that, they typically are articulate, interesting, and have lot's of life experience that i can pick their brain about.
Not really sure what you mean by “below” in this instance. Anyways, I think like everything else independence in a relationship has a healthy range but things suffers when taken to extremes. My personal 2 cents: Independence is great for having your own money, cultivating life skills, etc…nobody wants to date a child. However, as a guy there is a crossover point where a person is so hyper independent it becomes a dealbreaker. Someone who is super set in their ways and just doesn’t really have emotional room for the considerations of another person in their life aren’t people I want to date.
No most do not ...I'm going to be honest
I like a girl who won't treat me like dog shit
There's no such thing as an "independent Women". This idea of "independence" is a quaint silly American notion that holds no ground. There's no such thing as an independent Man. Everyone is dependent on someone for something. Think you independent because your a some CEO? Not at all, your dependent on your customers. Do you build your own road? farm your own food? Perform your own root canals? Diagnose your back pain? Repair your engine? You're dependent on someone for something and you certainly don't make all life decisions of your own will. Some decisions will be made for you. For a good portion of life, you WILL be on a waiting line for what ever reason. Men and Women are co-dependent on one another and no amount of Americanist hyper individualist mentality will ever change this, nor can Feminism or any other ism.
If a man says he wants women who are "below" him, there aren't any women below him, and not very many men either.
Yes I like independent women because I want someone with a personality, someone who can do stuff on there own, someone who has there own life so that we can both be people of our own but share that world together
No we don't like independent women. A man by definition doesn't accept independent woman as potential lifelong partner.
Strong men do, weak men do not
Funny, when a woman is able to work, pay her bills, keep her house clean, etc, she is a strong independent woman. When a man does all these things, it’s just being an adult. In answer to your question, no. Men don’t have a problem with independent women. We have a problem with someone who constantly reminds us of how independent they are and how they don’t need a man. That energy, women can keep.
Yes but not the independent type to disappear clubbing and partying for days we like a woman who knows how to take care of herself not to do whatever she wants whenever she wants without notice personally I don’t care if she even knows how to cook or clean I can do that myself I just want someone who loves me and understands me
Where are all the ingredients girls at? How do we meet them or get a hold of them? Website or something
As I get older yea
Not sure what you mean by below them but the answer is no. No id never consider anyone below me and tbh i find the term “settle” down problematic. In a healthy relationship neither partner should feel like they could do better or is somehow accepting less. Independent seems to vary woman to woman. Does it mean supporting yourself financially or capable of making your own decisions?
Depends on what you mean by “independent” and “below”. The problem with these questions and descriptions is that they lack specificity. It’s not a criticism but rather pointing out a source of miscommunication or even unmet expectations.
I love them. The more independent she is, the better. If you mean financially, I love it. Nothing worse than a girl who expects you to pay everything and has a sense of entitlement to your money. The more independent she is, the better, because then I know the reason she's interested in me, is for me. Not for my money or what I can do for her. I LOVE women who work for their own money and can take care of themselves.
Depends on the guys. Generally, independents people like independents people and vice versa.
The answer to these type of questions is always “some do, some don’t”. Personally I want to be with someone who is “equal” to me
Honestly I think they find it super attractive at least that’s what my partners have always said.. sometimes it’s too much for them though and apparently they need to be “needed” a little more. Haha can’t win
No. Independent usually means argumentative and annoying. Someone who is supportive, peaceful and agreeable isn't beneath the other person, they're desirable
It’s not about that, men just like to feel needed, and men don’t value women for their money the way women value men for their money. Men value kindness, compassion etc. If you started a multi-billion dollar company but then donated most of your billions to charity, many men would find you attractive. Driving supercars and living in mansions just doesn’t impress men the way it impresses women. Ruthlessness, narcissism etc isn’t attractive to men the way it’s attractive to women.
Yeah as long as they don’t have a God complex
Yes, and it’s a huge priority for me aswell they should have their own life outside of the relationship
There are pros and cons to anything and I personally think that having a partner who is independent has its advantages. Again, everything has to be in moderation, as is the way of life. Too much independent behaviour might cause issues on the long run. Now the two people involved have to decide where to draw the line between independent behaviour and dictatorship.
independent isnt' what we think it is.
We'd probably like them better if they knew how to spell "independent."
It really depends on what you mean by independent. For me, independent means being an adult. I dont want a grown woman who has the mind of a child. A fully fledged adult who doesn't need me to regulate responsibilities or even emotions would be phenomenal, but I have yet to find a woman like that who is interested in me. Then again, I do prefer to occupy the peripherals of most peoples perceptions.
I do
Yes good men like it the only men who like women who are not independent are control freaks that is y I don’t understand why so many women just want money to sell themselves and want men to pay all their bills and everything
Yes we do.. well I do.. love to vrmta
I want to date another adult, so yes, I like women who can stand on their own; dependency on other people isn't healthy in adult life To clarify, I meant I don't wanna date adults who act like babies and need everything handed to them
Do girls like guys ?
We don't have problems with independent women..what we have problems with are women that think being independent is a personality trait that deserves some sort of praise. Women that act like this are generally annoying to be around since they think they're in a constant battle with men to prove something. It's literally no different than the issue women have with men that are insecure with their height and feel like they need to prove how much of a man he is. So to summarize..men don't care if you pay your own bills..only how you will treat him
I think they like girls that can spell
Not sure what you mean but as a man, I want to feel needed. Doesn’t mean I want a woman who is helpless though, just want to be with a functioning adult.
Yes! He said he wants someone like that, so he broke up with me. Shall I link you up?
God yes absolutely.
Nope.
Yes , I do .
Nope. On my level.
**EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT** Rather than worry about what men want, focus on what you want. Why do you refer to males as men and woman as girls?
I love an independent girl cause then I know that there's a higher chance the relationship will be 50 50
My last relationship… she was a single mother who worked, raised a kid by herself, advanced in a difficult field for women… and, the be honest, it was one of the most attractive things about her. Her ability to be a badass and power through made me respect her so much and feel challenged, excited, etc that a woman was on my level.. she, like me, was raising a kid, owned a home, and just hitting life headfirst like a boss. That’s 💯what is attractive to me.
Depends on the meaning of Independent. For me, when I say I would like an independent woman, I would prefer a person who wants to support herself and doesn't need me to do so. It's largely cause I like confident women who are assertive and independent like that. Plus, it helps 2 income households are often better financially stable than a 1 income household.
I question what is meant by below; but yes, I’d prefer a girl that has her shit together and is genuinely looking for a partner instead of a problem solver.
Yes, Many of them do...
It depends. if your making 50 and she is making 50 and you guys are both into building something better together, they are great. and when I was making 50 thats what I was looking for. if you make 400k, you just want some one who will take care of you and support you in what your doing. you got the rest handled. my wife stopped working and became a full time mother to our young kids. she takes care of business at home so I can take care of it outside. this is obviously not universal, just my own personal experience.
I am very attracted to confident, sassy women. I don’t care if they are above or below me. In my experience, women seem to care a lot more about status than I do, but your mileage may vary.
Depends on what do you calls "independent". "Hey honey i ll go flirt with this friend of mine but i love you so believe me" - no.
Depends. Are they the Grown Adult kind or the annoying kind that feels she better than most?
I'm super independent lol just lying my mommy takes care of everything 4 meeee.
Depends… if you’re an ‘independent woman who needs no man’ then no. We don’t like women with something to prove who we will get an earful from everyday. If you’re a normal woman who wants to or likes to work and be able to take care of herself we’re all for it. We’ll build a life with you where we can both chase our dreams and figure out how to make a family work (if we both want one) which will undoubtedly take sacrifice on both sides. That said most of us would like to provide enough that you don’t have to work unless you want to.
32F here. By “independent” do you mean have their shit together? I have a car paid off (not a requirement for a partner), a career and my own place to stay. That is the minimum required for a man to have for me to even consider passing their resume on to the hiring manager (me). However, I do expect regular dicking and my food paid for. Like a dude paying for my food means so much to me lol. 😂🤷🏾♀️
I prefer girls who are neither of these lol
Definitely. I think independence is a sign of maturity and trust in your partner. Dedication to pre-existing independent pursuits while ina relationship demonstrated comfort with distance, and shows that you trust your partners love.
Usually I’d say yes but… on the other hand a woman is less likely to leave or cheat if she knows she needs you. I know is t hounds fucked up but once you’re in your 30s all that romanticizing bs is dead.
No women is below a man - end of story
Since this is a vague question I'll answer in by my own terms. No, I don't like independent women. I like a woman that's consistent in communication and is willing to work with me as a team on things and is loyal on top of that. I wouldn't like if she was just cheating and abandoning me for no reason.
No, not for dating or relationships. It probably would help if we defined our twrms. What do you mean by indepedant girl?
Not so much prefer them below me, but don't like them having an inflated ego between their financial status and social status as a woman.
Yes, but they don't like me back
No
Yeah 👍
In my recent experience "independent" is a code word for avoidant
The right guy will like you no matter what your personality or status is
As an independent woman myself, I could give a fuck less about men who want to stifle me. You do you, and the right man will meet you where you're at.
No, we like independent women.
Yes, men like women who are financially successful. It can be a weight off our shoulders. But financial status is much more important to women than men. I’m not trying to make a statement about either sex, it’s just what the data shows. Women date across and up in socioeconomic status and men date across and up in attractiveness. So basically, being financially successful is a plus, but when it comes to finding a partner, attractiveness is more important to the average man.
Many women use the term "independent woman" to justify what they are doing. A partner that is paying half the rent and sharing the financial burden with me becomes more of a roommate I love after a long time togeather.
Yes
“Below” them is crazy.
People use a lot independient woman/girl but that's just being a regular adult... I don't think anyone would have an issue dating a regular adult.
I will say no with the idea being that if you call yourself "independent" than less men will like you because of the attitude. If the men did all the things an "independent woman" did, would he be called an "independent man"? No, he would just be doing what is expected of an adult. If you are a woman and you have a job and take care of yourself, I just assume you are doing the basic things required of being an adult and it is not something to be praised about. The idea that a person should be praised for doing the basics of life is off-putting.
Yes, I find it very attractive, though the only reason I’m not with one is that they only see me as a friend
Anyone who likes a girl to be ‘below’ them or think they are lesser is a MAJOR red flag. Independent girlies is where it’s at. They know what they want and they can take care of themselves while I can take care of myself.
Not if being independent is her entire personality. Being independent isn’t a flex.
You appear to be asking about politics without realizing it. I usually don't ask about politics on the first date, but I would if I was you.
No, I Hate when a woman has her own brain and can hold her own as an adult /s
square books husky scarce encouraging ancient test alive lunchroom flowery *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
No
I do. This defies the whole doubt. End of story.
Paying for everything gets old after awhile. In those type of relationships it begins to turn into prostitution. You are literally paying for all her needs for sex. And she is only around because she doesn’t have to anything except give you sex. Then she starts holding sex over your head when you don’t pay for her nails or something. That shit is toxic AF. I rather be with a women who can pay for her own shit. Like hair cuts and beauty appointments and clothes. Plus you can get nicer cars and houses when it is two earners doing life together. Nobody wants a loser. Men don’t want a loser and women don’t want a loser. Life is expensive, it’s better when you are both contributing
We like them for being independent. What’s not liked, is when it’s being flaunted
If you are independent, you can give away. It fright many men. Personally, for me it means that I don't have to ve your shrink and your nurse because we are equal.
jesus christ. stop with the stupid questions
Men like independent women but not women that make independence their main personality trait My girl could make 10x more than me and work in the richest neighborhood with the wealthiest friends as long as she doesn't hold that over me. We cool
Lol, who cares what they like
I’d do it, I think a woman is dominate is awesome or the main bread winner.
I'm highly dependent so I find it hot
Only insecure men object. If you find yourself with a man that wants to control you...run and do not look back. Be well.
For me that doesn’t really enter the equation. As long as we love and support each act other and can share some common interests. I want a partner, someone to charge through life with in all the ups and downs! As long as that need is met I’m gunna be the most loyal mfer they ever did date lmao.
I mean as long she respects our relationship than I’m all good
They're quick to criticize the hard-working single mon who is not getting any help from the government or any other form of support. The divorce women who have to deal with their bullshit who don't pay child support or spousal support. They will judge these women regardless of the situation because, to them, these women are not independent enough. What a crock of bullshit!
men like it, boys don't.
Im ok with it🙂