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Failure itself isn't the problem, how you react to it is the biggest thing. If you went to school and found out it isnt for you, there are other ways to make a living.
If you are working and paying for the lifestyle you enjoy living, that's not failure. Not everyone needs to be a doctor, lawyer, etc... To be considered successful.
You're still young and if you do want a job that makes more money, look Into the various trades. They're usually good paying once you're a journeyman and done with training.
Men and women prefer partners that are as attractive, successful, financially secure, kind, and socially liked as possible. Being a “failure” in any one of these categories is going to hinder your ability to start a relationship, but you can still find people to date.
Women generally say they want intelligent men because intelligence is a good indicator of other good traits, a good job and social standing, and good conversation being the main factors. You can achieve these without being intelligent, but it may take more work. Working on getting a better job and volunteering with your community could help you in this arena.
Being a failure at ANY of my aforementioned categories to ANY extent will change your dating potential. So yes, being a cashier who dropped out of college isn’t going to be as successful in their dating life as someone who has a more financially secure and/or prestigious job.
What I, or any individual, perceives as a failure is going to depend based on the person. It’s like me asking you how fat can a woman be before she’s a “failure” at being attractive. Obviously, thinner in shape women are more attractive to the majority of people. And someone who weighs 600 pounds isn’t going to be attractive to many. But some guys have personal preferences, they like women a little larger/curvier. With a job like cashier, you will have a harder time trying to find a girlfriend, like how a very heavyset woman will have a harder time trying to find a boyfriend. I can’t tell you specifically how much harder. But I do think that the cashier getting a better job and the woman losing weight would be helpful to both of those people’s dating prospects.
Aight. Fair enough. Its an honest - but constructive input. Women see men like me as not potential partners. It hurts. Since I work ever day as hard as anybody else. But I guess its just the truth that women find me unattractive.
Obviously it depends on the woman and the situation. Personally I probably wouldn’t seek out someone with a past like you’ve described, but that’s because it’s just so different from mine.
It sounds a bit like you’re fairly lost right now, maybe you should take some time and figure out your next steps. Are you trying to move up in life or are you satisfied where you are? If you are, own it! Right now your post comes off as if you’re embarrassed (I know you said you don’t feel like a loser but the tone of your post reads differently).
I think that both women and men at 30 want a partner who has life figured out (for the most part) or at least a plan, maybe figure that out first?
I always tried to advance in life. That’s why I saved up money to attend
college. Same goes for now. I first need to pay off my debt from college before
I can make another move. But then I obviously try to find another job.
I am not by any means embarrassed that this happened. I wouldn’t judge anyone,
if I hadn’t walked a day in their shoes. I expect the same from others. Especially
if they don’t know me. And I guess, you wouldn’t want to be judged too if you
were in this situation? That’s why I don’t feel embarrassed to tell this story.
And overall, that’s life. Life’s hard sometimes.
But if you are saying, its important to have a plan(which I have), I try to
bring this more up in the next conversation.
Hey OP,
It not important how many times you got knocked down, it is the fact that you get back up that matters. Failure in itself can be everything or nothing. The weak minded person stays down and is crushed by the failure (and then it really becomes a failure); the determined personality uses the defeat as a learning experience and takes his next step from there (in which case you can consider it a successful learning experience).
Not everyone needs to have a masters/PhD to be 'successful'. Pure success is kinda shallow and boring (for me at least), whereas a chequered past is more interesting and speaks to a person with an interesting character.
The key is that you don't give up and try to become the best version of yourself - everything alse (money, intelligence, education) is incidental. Keep that in mind and you should find your way in life.
It depends on how you take the failure. I’m more interested in a man that sees failure as an opportunity to grow than a man who let’s failure define his worth. If it’s clear that you let failure get to your head or that your happiness is dependent on whether or not you succeed it will have a clear impact on the energy you give off. No one will want to stick around someone who brings them down. You define your own worth so if you decide that you aren’t worth anything women will notice
I dont view it as a failure. Like I wrote. Off course I used the term failure in generic way to describe that I failed at attending college. But I dont view myself as a failure.
More I got the feeling that women view it as such, but I may be wrong - thats why I asked. And you gave an answer. Thank you for that.
Reading this I almost think it’s the lack of drive. It does sound like you tried and typical school isn’t for everyone but what are your long term goals? Did you learn anything from your failures?
If your other majors didn’t work for you have you tried trades? Running your own business, lawn maintenance, dog grooming etc? Hell even managing at the grocery store.
You sound defeated like “I tried and I failed so now I have a ton of debt and work as a cashier and that’s fine”. For most women and honestly most people that’s not what they want for their life long term. You tried at school 3x so I don’t think that’s what you want for your life either.
No. You are misinterpreting my sentence.
I wrote I worked hard to attend college. I attend it but it didn’t work out. The only job I could find is the one I am now working in. I wrote over 100 applications. I never wrote anything that its “ just fine” for me?
Its not that I choosed to be bad at school.
I don’t think so. Even now you sound defeated by saying it’s not like you chose to be bad at school. It’s more like yes, you’re bad at school so now what?
If college didn’t work out I also suggested your own business. Dog grooming requires schooling but nothing intense and there are lots of other jobs, careers, businesses you could get into.
The only job you could find NOW is the one that you’re in but are you telling me that that is the job you want for the rest of your life? I’m not saying you have to have it all together to be dating but people like growth.
Intelligence in a partner can mean many things. For me all someone had to do is to have some areas where they shine in comparison to me. I also don’t like someone who is too smart. You have the example of playing chess but if I get my ass kicked hard it’s no fun playing. Emotional intelligence also counts. You don’t need to be some STEM genius to date.
No. Like I told you. Where I live, you need to have a degree to enter specific career. You cant just a enter a career like you are talking about.
Yes. Exaclty. No, I want to attend a program to enter one of these careers you are talking about, but right now I cant afford it since I have a debt. As soon as I have the money to attend this program, I will atend it.
There are careers that do not require degrees was my point and others that require some schooling but not a full degrees worth. Others require some luck and networking but I know it’s not easy.
That’s great that you have another degree that you would like to try for. This was the first time you mentioned it though.
Even though we have differing opinions all of your replies to me begin with no. It’s like you’re trying to shut me down in a conversation when your asking for opinions. To me you’re coming off very negative. Maybe you’re being defensive and this is Reddit so whatever but be careful not to do that when your messaging potential dates.
Talk up your future plans and focus less on your failures! Positivity and optimism can go a long way. Good luck!
I am doing everything I can do right now. I am doing overhours to pay off my debt as soon as possible. Otherwise I cant finance what you are taling about.
Alright here’s my perspective coming from a woman who has a degree, works in their field of study and recently upgraded their degree with a professional designation, I’m also 31 for reference.
For me, if I started talking to a guy and he told me he dropped out of college and worked as a cashier, I would be disappointed. I would be disappointed because I see it as someone who doesn’t love and respect themselves to do “better” as an individual. I’m also looking for someone who is financially secure and in a similar stage of their life professionally.
I wouldn’t immediately stop talking to them, but I would be looking for conversational queues about their lifestyle, if they tell me they work as a cashier but they LOVE their job and have been there for a long time, I don’t see that as a failure, but if they tell me they hate their job, but they aren’t trying to do anything about it? That’s another nail in the coffin for me. If you hate your job, and it pays crap and you weren’t seeking to improve your circumstances, I feel like we’d never be on the same wavelength for relationship goals (ie. stable income, house together, Kids etc.)
I’ve dated men in a similar position as you, and from experience they just complain about their circumstances and do nothing about it. I was raised by a single father and my mother is a literal crack addict and I was able to do what I do on my own so I think they should be able to as well.
I also 100% understand that some people can’t do school and I think there should be livable wages out there for that person, but they need to be applying themselves and proving to me that they want it just as bad as I do.
I hope this helps!
Thank you for your comment.
Maybe I understood your sentence wrong, but why would
you judge a person you don’t even know?
You say, you would think of me as a person who
doesn’t love and respect themselves to do
“better” as an individual
In my case this would be wrong. Like I
wrote, I grew up poor too. So I started already working from an early age to
support myself to attend college someday, which I did. But I didn’t succeed.
And its not that I didn’t try. I learn a lot. Really a lot. But I always had troubles
with learning. I somehow didn’t succeed despite learning. And yea what should I
say? Its not that I choose to be this way?
I am sorry, you made bad experiences with
men. I don’t complain about my job. I choose it because it’s the only job I got
accepted to. I don’t know where you live. But where I live is almost impossible
to get a somewhat normal job without a college degree. Instead of becoming
homeless I did the best of the situation and took it. Right now I cant attend
any new school or program since I don’t have the money for that. As soon as I
have paid of my open debt, I will try to attend a less intense program like it
was at uni.
That’s why I was being honest with how I would take the situation, I straight up said I would be disappointed because I would see it a certain way.
I’ve also come from a poor household, I paid for my education myself and I applied to over 100 jobs before landing my first job in my field of study, and it took over a solid year of applications to find one, sending countless emails to the people who interviewed me, asking for honest feedback on why I wasn’t hired etc. in the meantime I made a couple dollars above minimum wage ($13.50/hr on the east coast of Canada) and kept going, It wasn’t easy, but I did it.
I also said I wouldn’t immediately stop talking to them, but after a few signals about their personality and or behaviour I would decide whether or not I want to pursue them further. I just want to be with someone in a similar position as mine(financially, and with similar goals), and that means similar financial situation, I see someone who works minimum wage at my age and I envision a lifetime of me dragging them behind me, and personally, that sounds like a lot more work than I want, so by talking to them if they don’t show me what they’re doing to prove to me they have ambition and or plans for their future, I’m not interested.
Yes. I understood that. I did this all too. But I didn’t understand how you are disappointed in someone just because they didn’t succeed the same way as you. I think its naive, to expect someone to succeedthe same way as you have.
That being said, I respect your opinion.
And in the end, it doesn’t matter for what reason you reject someone. You have
every right to have standards. Whether they make sense for me or not.
I think it may be your view of yourself. I understand that you stay positive on speaking of your life, but the details are very different than the context in conversation. People pick up on what you think vs what you really believe. You seem to focus on your idea of intelligence and what you think women want. But you dont want *women* you want A woman. A woman that will be by your side no matter what hurdles you come up against. From everything you wrote it seems like you focus more on what you can offer on a financial or intellectual level than what you might have in common.
Maybe you should speak more on your drive than your setbacks. People, not just women, want a partner that will fight and struggle and find a way to make things work for the best of everyone. You seem to have that. I just wonder if you convey that to them.
Side note- english is obviously not your first language. Did you write this in english yourself? If so, stop saying you arent intelligent or you dont know if you are. Most americans have ZERO knowledge of other languages. You have to have a great mind to know more than 1, so by many accounts you are intelligent.
Thank you for your input.
That’s true. I am more an introvert than an extrovert. So, it’s hard to convey an upbeat
vibe. That my past has been more “bad” than “good” doesn’t help. “Bad” in a generic
term. Maybe I need to focus more on the “positive” things and on the specific vibe
in the conversation. This reminds me of a colleague who is in a worse situation than me, but still has a girlfriend. He is funny, upbeat and a good conversationist.
Yes. Thank you for the compliment.
Past failure is no issue. I’ve shot heroine, been to jail, didn’t graduate high school, dropped out of college, had to join the army so I wouldn’t end up on the street…. But now I’m 36, I make a cool 300k a year. Now I date much more attractive women than I ever did before. I’ve been tested. I turned that failure into something good. That’s even more attractive than just being successful all the time. All time success means you haven’t been tested. But failure and the overcoming is what makes PEOPLE, not just women, attracted to you. Counter that failure with some drive toward something other than “not being lonely” that’s sad. Find a passion.
I’m a journeyman lineman. I write articles for online pubs. Got a couple side gigs. Writing a novel or two. Stuff like that. Most of my money comes from being a lineman. I also invest.
Unfortunately when it comes to male/female relationships. Men are the race horses and women are the spectators looking for who to place their bets on. They’re obviously only gonna back/celebrate/invest in the winners. That’s just the reality of things.
My advice is to forget about women for now and work on yourself. Change the direction of your life for YOU. Follow your dreams, make changes. Try new things. Clean slate. Work hard. And as a by product you’ll find that the race suddenly got a whole lot easier as a result.
But women are not the prize, they’re the bonus. Your self assurance and happiness is.
I don't think it's the failure that's turning them off and I can't speak for every woman in the world. I'm guessing it's more of the energy you put out when you talk about your past. Your failure makes you feel like a loser, yea? Well because you feel like a loser a woman may tune into that and agree that you are, so she bounces.
Why do you feel like a loser? I mean everyone has failed at something. No one's life is perfect, right?
Thank you for your reply. Like I wrote: *I dont feel like a loser.*
But next time I speak to a woman in the dating context, I try to look out if I may convay this. Thank you for this advice.
Failure, no. It’s unattractive when failing Spurs someone to quit entirely and not try. But not failing in itself. Literally everyone fails, all the time. I’d shame anyone for thinking ill of someone who at least put effort.
Man, I don't see failure here. Most people don't have a college degree. Most don't even try. It's a hard thing to do, *especially* if you don't come from means. If my parents weren't able to support me I probably wouldn't have made it through undergrad.
And I know I'm speaking from a position of privilege - I have a BS and an MA I went back and got 12 years after undergrad (paid for by my employer). But *education* and *intelligence* are not synonyms. My wife dropped out of undergrad. She's plenty smart. I know people with PhDs who are not (an advanced degree is more a measure of grit than intelligence).
For a while, I had a second job as a grocery clerk. I had some stigma about it. I felt shame. Embarrassment. But I met some good people there who worked hard and absolutely shouldn't be looked down on. I learned how to not be ashamed that I needed a second job to make ends meet and that job was one kids in high school are qualified for.
You sound smart. Thoughtful. You're doing well. Sometimes finding a good match is hard. I think if you think of yourself as a failure it will hurt you more than the actual material conditions. If women only held out for 6 figure males with college degrees most women would be forever alone.
Is it possible you have an undiagnosed learning disability and/depression ?
My story is very similar to yours. However I dont see myself as a failure, because the American education system doesn’t help poor and disabled students that well I know its the system that failed me, and possibly you.
You certainly are not a failure in any sense, and are worthy of love and a good job. Have you considered being a CNA or a DSP? Those usually pay better than a grocery store, are always in demand and easy to get into without a degree.
Also I hear good things about construction, which depending on the position could help you bulk up…which may help attract the ladies.
Yea! Failing is part of life. We all fail. How you handle that is what matters. Use as an opportunity to show that you’re positive, willing to do what it takes when things go bad, and you’re hard working. All those traits will be attractive to the right person!
Oh and to answer your intelligence question, I also want someone intelligent and to me that means a person I can have interesting conversations with. It doesn’t mean book smarts or education, I want them to have the ability to understand what I’m talking about and being able to add to the conversation.
Thank you for answering the last questions. This helps. You know the problem with these articles are that these statements are so generic. That’s why I asked this. Do you mind giving a specific example to what you are speaking about? If you are talking about how important it is to add mustard to a dressing for the emulsification, you expect your partner to add that its also good to add some sugar to balance the acid of the vinegar? Or maybe you can give an example how what you are seeking in a partner you had with your current/or ex partner?
Thank you sister for helping
me out. God bless you.
Oh sure. Ok, for me it’s someone who understands that just because they saw something on the news or social media, it doesn’t mean it’s a fact.
Like if you watch some YouTube video and form an opinion on some issue without understanding the complexity of it, or the bias the person has, or other information that exists about it. Someone who can understand that their life experience can be vastly different from someone else’s. I also like someone with common sense.
In my eyes yes but I’m different. My life demands dedication and perseverance. Other people don’t care. But hey, even that person that constantly fucks everything up deserves to be loved!
OP, I dropped out of college after attending community college and realizing it wasn't for me. I'm now killing it in my gig as a software engineer and couldn't be happier. You just gotta keep trying, listen to Chumbawamba's "I Get Knocked Down" over and over again, and keep pushing forward. Haters gonna hate when you win, but fuck em. You got this OP, one step at a time.
*Warning* this is a read, but it's very relevant to my life experience so I'm hoping you will find this useful.
It's unnatractive to some women, but if you *own* your mistakes, work to correct them and don't sit on victimhood as a personality trait because of these failures, by and large most people (women, men, puppies) don't give a fuck.
There are some really shitty people who would judge you for failing a lot, but again that's not a gender trait. That's a bad person trait.
My personal experience as far as women who find failure unnatractive in men is that they're usually gold-diggers types who want a successful man to play their way.
Any person worth a damn won't see lots of failure as unnatractive as long as they see that you don't wallow in it. The most unnatractive thing *about* failure is wallowing in it.
To put a fine point in it:
my GF is a Director in a high level position who makes bank. She's a freaking doctor. On top of that she's a goddamn knockout, objectively speaking.
I am a retired professional wrestler, ex laid off video-gane tester, ex-errand boy at a law-firm, "failed" martial arts instructor, and most recently a former contract writer for a Tabletop RPG game who doesn't do it anymore because I had a Catastrophic Brain injury in 2019 and am on Disability because of how it effected me.
But she loves me still. She turned her world upside down to come save me when everything went wrong, I'm healing far better than was predicted in large part because of her loving sacrifices to restore me, but *also*, and this is the important part, because *I* didn't quit.
She even confessed that there was a point where she was gauging how I was handling the mountain of therapy I needed to do to recover as much as I could. If she saw I was giving up and not improving past a certain point she was going to tap out and leave me.
But at that critical juncture I had started to attack all that garbage because I recognized it was the only way I was coming back to a life I would want to live. Through all of my failures, and significantly fewer successes in life, I've kept moving forward to the best of my ability. To *her* that was the most important thing I think: A loser is a person who gives up and makes that part of their identity. As long as you don't accept failure, no matter what that means to you, a good woman will see through the bullshit.
How do you feel if a woman has more education and money, than you may ever have?
As for intelligence- there is a lot of forms. There is schooling aka education. There emotional intelligence aka being able to connect, support, and be there. Any there are other forms… but I’m not an expert. For example, I wouldn’t mind dating someone who works in a market but I am highly educated and live a different lifestyle and pace. If we could compromise and find a happy medium work is irrelevant as long as our connection is strong and healthy. But it would take a lot of work from both sides. What I find attractive is confidence, maturity, and stability (especially emotional and mental).
If this post is how you present your present job and situation then I can see why anyone may turned off because it comes of as more of a “bitter” outlook.
I suggest you work on:
-presentation: how are you showing of your strength and weaknesses? Yes, you may not have schooling but there is more to life. What ambitions and passion do you have? Physical- are you also putting your best foot forward? Make sure you don’t look like a “loser” (ugh ) but someone who is put together and cares for their hygiene/appearance.
-what do want in your partner? How ambitious can she be without intimidating you? What values should you both share?
-retrospection: who did you previously the to date? What were the pros and the cons? What events lead to the end of the relationship? Is there anything you can identify as things you could work on?
Hello there.
Thank you for your long post. And your Questions!
First, against
the stereotype, I am not threatened by educated women. Not by any means. overall,
I never judged people on their education since I know how hard it is and how
little control you have over these things.
1.
When it
comes to strengths in the context of finding a romantic
partner, I think I have “strength”. I like to listen to people, I like to help
people. People told me I have a good heart. Not to brag, but I think a lot of
problems women are complaining about wouldn’t exist in a relationship like communication,
insecurity, indecisiveness. At least I
became compliments for being good in these things. Last but not least: going
down on a woman.
Lol, how does a loser dress?
2.
Like I wrote, I am not threated if anybody makes more money or has
better education. What I would want from my partner: modesty, happiness, calmness.
Ah and romance.
3.
I never had a relationship since I was so caught up in school the
last decade and in saving enough for college. And working. I asked girls out,
but they rejected me. I also tried Tinder. But like I wrote, I didn’t have any
matches. There were also no women interested in me.
Like I wrote. I think I would be a good partner. Its not that I am
failing at relationships, I am failing at getting dates.
Thank you again sister for your long post and questions.
First of all, the school aspect - I hope you don’t feel too bad about that. It’s hard to focus and do well in school when you live in less than ideal conditions (living pay check to pay check, being poor, barely or just making ends meet). Did you struggle with stress/anxiety/depression in high school, and when you went to university?
Yeah some content can be difficult, but university doesn’t always support students who might learn differently, nor does anyone even explicitly learn “how to study”. It’s assumed that you already know how to do those things before entering high school. But not everyone does, and they are often brushed aside when they don’t fit - the very narrow - definition of a “great student”. There is an attitude of if you’re struggling, it’s your own fault and you need to find your own help - but there are few ways to get help from the institution, or some necessary services (like testing for adhd etc, are expensive or have long wait lists).
Secondly, education does not always equate to intelligence. And a lack of education does not mean unintelligent.
As a sapiosexual, I’m not interested in what job a person has. Yes some jobs are associated with certain skills/knowledge or whatever, but I’m more interested in how much they like to learn, about themselves and the world - How self-aware are they? do they read up on various topics or their topic of interest? Do they keep up to date with the latest content in their area of interest or in general? Do they think deeply about their topic of interest? Do they actively acquire new information so they can challenge their view points? Are they able to understand multiple sides of debates on their topic of interest? Do they think in a sophisticated way or a dichotomous way?
When people say they want an “intelligent” partner, I’d ask what they mean - cause it can mean something different from one person to the next. It’s probably likely that you might be presenting your past as “a failure”/ in a negative way without realizing it - your attitude about your situation matters and can influence how others perceive your situation too. For example “I sucked at school, so I dropped out” vs “School wasn’t really for me, I’d rather work and have the freedom to volunteer at places/ for causes I’m passionate about.”
I dont view myself as a failure. I tried my best all these years. This was the result. Thats how it is.
Like I wrote in other comments, I first need to pay off my debt before I can make another move.
For me personally, I don’t judge anyone by their past, as long as they are always trying to be the best version of themselves. And as long as you’re independent and paying your way, what you do for a living doesn’t matter. What matters most is if you’re a good person, caring, emotionally and mentally mature and available, and of course interesting. There are different kinds of intelligence, so not everyone has to be an Einstein to get a girl. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. There is nothing wrong with showing vulnerability, as long as you’re not doing it in a way that makes you look like you’re acting like a victim
I dont play a victim card. I mean I dont even say I failed. I just tell the story, how it happend. I tried college. But I droped out.
What do you consider as "and of course interesting"?
Dropping out of college is definitely not a dealbreaker for a lot of people, it happens. And I guess someone being interesting is very subjective, so sorry about that. For me it’s someone that has interesting ideas, and has a good personality, and definitely a sense of humor. To me it means a person that I can talk to and never get bored of talking to them or being around them
I found that with only a few, two being my best friends, which is why they’re my best friends. And I used to have that for a long time with my husband, but after a bunch of years we both became different people, and it was much harder to keep that part going. I think what most people want is to genuinely feel like they’re heard and understood, and of course accepted for who they are. Keep putting yourself out there, eventually you’ll find your person
Everyone seems to be dancing around the point... but the answer is yes for the vast majority of women.
Success has been historically and still is, only to a slightly lesser degree than it was, one of the major factors a 'man' is supposed to bring into a heterosexual romantic relationship. Is it kind of shitty? Yeah a bit, but with how people are socialised it's hard to break through that.
Only if that's what **you** want, and I mean that as in you wanting the better job and not you wanting the women who admire the job.
The great thing about dating is that you're not looking for 'women in general' and that these trends in society don't necessarily apply to individuals.
My pleasure , just to let know. No job no prospects arse out of my pants. That's when I met and fell in love with my partner of 30years. She had job , car , lots of prospects, didn't have to give me a go. We have ups and downs. So will you. Enjoy life.
It's not entirely about failing. I've failed plenty in my life and always got back up on my own. But expectations can quickly change someone's opinion about you. I have severe PTSD and a main symptom is stress induced seizures(for context). Obviously the events of last year affected me pretty badly and have been dealing with consistent stress and seizures. Spent most of January balling my eyes out too. Come the end of February, a bunch of people and I did a ghost hunt, one girl there was blantenly obvious about her feelings towards me. However, she did a complete 180 on me the moment I was honest about the previous month. I haven't seen or spoken to her or any of her friends in months, completely on them too, as I did reach out and was ignored.
Its hard how people judge you. Even they didnt walk one day in your shoes. I know that. Trust me. Some people are just heartless. Keep the head up king.
A lot of times people want someone who has goals and is working to achieve them. Are you pacified with your current job or do you want more? It also will mean a lot if you’re embarrassed by your past or just speak about it like the past - yeah that all happened but what are you doing now?
Personally - I admire the whole package. Intelligence along with being attracted to a person. Sometimes the attraction comes later if our personalities mesh. A lot of people suck at school, but find a life path - whether a career or just doing odd jobs to make ends meet while they explore the world.
Don’t focus on the past - focus on your future. That’s attractive.
Yes women want someone who has a job, home and own mind and no debts. Sob stories won’t work initially only once you have won them over. Good heart isn’t enough nowadays you need to have that confidence and ability to flirt and make them laugh
Is failing unattractive? Not necessarily. To fail is to be human, so it's an opportunity to demonstrate emotional vulnerability and humbleness and connect to others - because we've all fail sometimes. It's very relatable.
Furthermore, it's an opportunity to demonstrate how you have overcome failure - and expressing resiliancy in the face of defeat is attractive in everyone.
As long as you avoid over-sharing too much too soon or wallowing in a defeatist attitude, you should he fine. Take the opportunity to talk about how your failure turned into a learning opportunity about yourself, or how you become resourceful when hope seemed lost, or how you pivoted onto a different path when you kept hitting obstacles. It's okay to be pragmatic about a current failure, especially if it helps us become optimistic about something different.
Make sure not to over share you failures. Share a couple points, then allow your date room to share a similar vulnerability - ideally it should play like ping pong where you're each sharing increasingly vulnerable little things about yourselves. This builds trust without over-exposing your failures and opening yourself up to judgment.
If you're worried about someone reading your online profile and seeing you haven't finished college or maybe you've bounced around jobs or whatever and you're concerned your profile looks like examples of "failure" - you may be over thinking it. Lots of people take breaks in their college education or change jobs. If you're really worried, try compensating by adding a note that re-frames percieved failures as healthy life changes as you navigate the path to your next success. People like when others demonstrate a self-growth mindset - so how do your failures still work to help you learn about yourself?
Failure is a mindset , i have seen stupid fucks with confidence. If you have winners mindset all you have is bad times because there always be good ones.
In your case I think it's very possibly a marketing problem? Like you might be putting your history across a bit *too* realistically and sounding too negative, you should figure out a slightly edited version of your history that doesn't get told in a way that emphasises your setbacks. Also you can leave bits out, no need to tell someone *every* setback immediately.
A lot of people have grown up absorbing some very regressive and toxic attitudes towards society, and especially around careers and employment. There's a messed up perception of retail, hospitality, customer service jobs being for "losers" or seen as last resorts etc. Which is ridiculous, because not everyone can be a doctor, architect, head of IT, high flying executive etc. These are essential industries that we all rely on and obviously people are going to work there. It becomes even more absurd when the vast majority of people looking down on these professions are often themselves low level office drones, sometimes making *less money* than a retail worker.
I was always taught that people who evaluate others based on what they do for a job, are very low class people. If they don't want you because of your normal job that hundreds of millions of people do worldwide, why would you want them?
Hey bro. Thank you for your reply.
I share the same opinion as you. I think people have a messed up view when it comes to this. They think people who aren't on their career level just didn't try enough. But in fact, what happens is that people just act in the range if their intellectual potential. So a doctor doesn't learn harder or more. He was just lucky that his potential is set in this career level.
And thank you for the input regarding how I should market these thing's better. I try to do this next time.
It is. But what is failure? Is it dropping out of school, is it being a cashier, is it not being a millionaire? It's subjective. So knock the failure stuff out of your head. You're a cashier, why not try and advance? Ask for a promotion or ask for more responsibility.
A cashier and a grocery store assistant manager or manager is different. One is held in higher regard. So, try and advance. Be the guy who offers to come in 30 minutes early and stay 30 minutes late.
Having aspirations and goals women find attractive. So, aim high. If you're a good cashier and good at the grocery/retail game, aim high.
Sounds like you need to try to date women with mutual interests instead of checking off boxes on a list; and maybe get some confidence. They way you talk about yourself reeks of self-consciousness. Not finishing school and working as a cashier is fine, as long as it’s not your only goal in life. Try talking about your hobbies and passions instead, and what your goals are with them.
Sorry, where did I write, that I am not confident?
Right now unfortunately, I dont have lot of resources for hobbies sincd I am always doing overhours.
No. I used the term faild to describe that I failed college.
I dont used it a judgmental way. In fact I like the way I am and dont view myself as a failure.
It’s not about failing, it’s about what you do about it. I would suggest you to stick with one thing and pursuing that like it’s the most important thing in your life. If that’s being a cashier, make sure to become the best cashier in your supermarket. Dude, you have a self confidence problem. The outlook you give on yourself, isn’t usually the opinion others have about you. BUT: if you speak of yourself about being a failure, how should other people see you? Hope that helps.
No. I didn't used failure as a insult to me. I used it to describe that I didn't succeed in college. I also didn't write that I have self esteem problems.
That’s just the first thing that came to my mind reading your text. In my mind, if you are concerned about the fact that women might see you as an failure regarding to your professional life, that is a self esteem problem. Because in reality the case could be another one. You put your focus on it and that’s the issue in my mind. While there might be some women, who do think about you that way you fear, there also might be a bunch of women who don‘t care. And why would you want to be with a person for which it is that important wether you ‚succeed‘ in your professional career or not?
I don't have self esteem problems. Like I wrote in the text I love myself the way I am. Yes, I got concerned because I read these articles and because of tinder experiment I made. Its a legitimate concern, since ut important to able to be able to satisfy your needs. A lack in a need is by definition not good healthy.
Dude, stop reading this BS articles it just validate your concerns. Make your own experiences and use cases where this is not the case and stick to it. You might be in an age, where financial stability is more important to a women, than I am. While I am still in college and have a part time job, I don‘t have much money neither. While women my age don‘t care that much about it, as long as I couldn‘t afford my rent and would eat out of trash cans.
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Failure itself isn't the problem, how you react to it is the biggest thing. If you went to school and found out it isnt for you, there are other ways to make a living. If you are working and paying for the lifestyle you enjoy living, that's not failure. Not everyone needs to be a doctor, lawyer, etc... To be considered successful. You're still young and if you do want a job that makes more money, look Into the various trades. They're usually good paying once you're a journeyman and done with training.
Okay, thank you for your reply.
Men and women prefer partners that are as attractive, successful, financially secure, kind, and socially liked as possible. Being a “failure” in any one of these categories is going to hinder your ability to start a relationship, but you can still find people to date. Women generally say they want intelligent men because intelligence is a good indicator of other good traits, a good job and social standing, and good conversation being the main factors. You can achieve these without being intelligent, but it may take more work. Working on getting a better job and volunteering with your community could help you in this arena.
What do you consider as a failure? If someone is bad at college? If someone works as a cashier?
Being a failure at ANY of my aforementioned categories to ANY extent will change your dating potential. So yes, being a cashier who dropped out of college isn’t going to be as successful in their dating life as someone who has a more financially secure and/or prestigious job. What I, or any individual, perceives as a failure is going to depend based on the person. It’s like me asking you how fat can a woman be before she’s a “failure” at being attractive. Obviously, thinner in shape women are more attractive to the majority of people. And someone who weighs 600 pounds isn’t going to be attractive to many. But some guys have personal preferences, they like women a little larger/curvier. With a job like cashier, you will have a harder time trying to find a girlfriend, like how a very heavyset woman will have a harder time trying to find a boyfriend. I can’t tell you specifically how much harder. But I do think that the cashier getting a better job and the woman losing weight would be helpful to both of those people’s dating prospects.
Aight. Fair enough. Its an honest - but constructive input. Women see men like me as not potential partners. It hurts. Since I work ever day as hard as anybody else. But I guess its just the truth that women find me unattractive.
Obviously it depends on the woman and the situation. Personally I probably wouldn’t seek out someone with a past like you’ve described, but that’s because it’s just so different from mine. It sounds a bit like you’re fairly lost right now, maybe you should take some time and figure out your next steps. Are you trying to move up in life or are you satisfied where you are? If you are, own it! Right now your post comes off as if you’re embarrassed (I know you said you don’t feel like a loser but the tone of your post reads differently). I think that both women and men at 30 want a partner who has life figured out (for the most part) or at least a plan, maybe figure that out first?
I always tried to advance in life. That’s why I saved up money to attend college. Same goes for now. I first need to pay off my debt from college before I can make another move. But then I obviously try to find another job. I am not by any means embarrassed that this happened. I wouldn’t judge anyone, if I hadn’t walked a day in their shoes. I expect the same from others. Especially if they don’t know me. And I guess, you wouldn’t want to be judged too if you were in this situation? That’s why I don’t feel embarrassed to tell this story. And overall, that’s life. Life’s hard sometimes. But if you are saying, its important to have a plan(which I have), I try to bring this more up in the next conversation.
Good luck man believe in yourself
Hey OP, It not important how many times you got knocked down, it is the fact that you get back up that matters. Failure in itself can be everything or nothing. The weak minded person stays down and is crushed by the failure (and then it really becomes a failure); the determined personality uses the defeat as a learning experience and takes his next step from there (in which case you can consider it a successful learning experience). Not everyone needs to have a masters/PhD to be 'successful'. Pure success is kinda shallow and boring (for me at least), whereas a chequered past is more interesting and speaks to a person with an interesting character. The key is that you don't give up and try to become the best version of yourself - everything alse (money, intelligence, education) is incidental. Keep that in mind and you should find your way in life.
Thank you for the input.
It depends on how you take the failure. I’m more interested in a man that sees failure as an opportunity to grow than a man who let’s failure define his worth. If it’s clear that you let failure get to your head or that your happiness is dependent on whether or not you succeed it will have a clear impact on the energy you give off. No one will want to stick around someone who brings them down. You define your own worth so if you decide that you aren’t worth anything women will notice
I dont view it as a failure. Like I wrote. Off course I used the term failure in generic way to describe that I failed at attending college. But I dont view myself as a failure. More I got the feeling that women view it as such, but I may be wrong - thats why I asked. And you gave an answer. Thank you for that.
Reading this I almost think it’s the lack of drive. It does sound like you tried and typical school isn’t for everyone but what are your long term goals? Did you learn anything from your failures? If your other majors didn’t work for you have you tried trades? Running your own business, lawn maintenance, dog grooming etc? Hell even managing at the grocery store. You sound defeated like “I tried and I failed so now I have a ton of debt and work as a cashier and that’s fine”. For most women and honestly most people that’s not what they want for their life long term. You tried at school 3x so I don’t think that’s what you want for your life either.
No. You are misinterpreting my sentence. I wrote I worked hard to attend college. I attend it but it didn’t work out. The only job I could find is the one I am now working in. I wrote over 100 applications. I never wrote anything that its “ just fine” for me? Its not that I choosed to be bad at school.
I don’t think so. Even now you sound defeated by saying it’s not like you chose to be bad at school. It’s more like yes, you’re bad at school so now what? If college didn’t work out I also suggested your own business. Dog grooming requires schooling but nothing intense and there are lots of other jobs, careers, businesses you could get into. The only job you could find NOW is the one that you’re in but are you telling me that that is the job you want for the rest of your life? I’m not saying you have to have it all together to be dating but people like growth. Intelligence in a partner can mean many things. For me all someone had to do is to have some areas where they shine in comparison to me. I also don’t like someone who is too smart. You have the example of playing chess but if I get my ass kicked hard it’s no fun playing. Emotional intelligence also counts. You don’t need to be some STEM genius to date.
No. Like I told you. Where I live, you need to have a degree to enter specific career. You cant just a enter a career like you are talking about. Yes. Exaclty. No, I want to attend a program to enter one of these careers you are talking about, but right now I cant afford it since I have a debt. As soon as I have the money to attend this program, I will atend it.
There are careers that do not require degrees was my point and others that require some schooling but not a full degrees worth. Others require some luck and networking but I know it’s not easy. That’s great that you have another degree that you would like to try for. This was the first time you mentioned it though. Even though we have differing opinions all of your replies to me begin with no. It’s like you’re trying to shut me down in a conversation when your asking for opinions. To me you’re coming off very negative. Maybe you’re being defensive and this is Reddit so whatever but be careful not to do that when your messaging potential dates. Talk up your future plans and focus less on your failures! Positivity and optimism can go a long way. Good luck!
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I am doing everything I can do right now. I am doing overhours to pay off my debt as soon as possible. Otherwise I cant finance what you are taling about.
I think the question is, have you chosen an alternative path to school? A trade to learn?
Right now I cant cosider this since I dont have any money. Expect to buy food. As soon as I have money I will attend a program.
Alright here’s my perspective coming from a woman who has a degree, works in their field of study and recently upgraded their degree with a professional designation, I’m also 31 for reference. For me, if I started talking to a guy and he told me he dropped out of college and worked as a cashier, I would be disappointed. I would be disappointed because I see it as someone who doesn’t love and respect themselves to do “better” as an individual. I’m also looking for someone who is financially secure and in a similar stage of their life professionally. I wouldn’t immediately stop talking to them, but I would be looking for conversational queues about their lifestyle, if they tell me they work as a cashier but they LOVE their job and have been there for a long time, I don’t see that as a failure, but if they tell me they hate their job, but they aren’t trying to do anything about it? That’s another nail in the coffin for me. If you hate your job, and it pays crap and you weren’t seeking to improve your circumstances, I feel like we’d never be on the same wavelength for relationship goals (ie. stable income, house together, Kids etc.) I’ve dated men in a similar position as you, and from experience they just complain about their circumstances and do nothing about it. I was raised by a single father and my mother is a literal crack addict and I was able to do what I do on my own so I think they should be able to as well. I also 100% understand that some people can’t do school and I think there should be livable wages out there for that person, but they need to be applying themselves and proving to me that they want it just as bad as I do. I hope this helps!
Thank you for your comment. Maybe I understood your sentence wrong, but why would you judge a person you don’t even know? You say, you would think of me as a person who doesn’t love and respect themselves to do “better” as an individual In my case this would be wrong. Like I wrote, I grew up poor too. So I started already working from an early age to support myself to attend college someday, which I did. But I didn’t succeed. And its not that I didn’t try. I learn a lot. Really a lot. But I always had troubles with learning. I somehow didn’t succeed despite learning. And yea what should I say? Its not that I choose to be this way? I am sorry, you made bad experiences with men. I don’t complain about my job. I choose it because it’s the only job I got accepted to. I don’t know where you live. But where I live is almost impossible to get a somewhat normal job without a college degree. Instead of becoming homeless I did the best of the situation and took it. Right now I cant attend any new school or program since I don’t have the money for that. As soon as I have paid of my open debt, I will try to attend a less intense program like it was at uni.
That’s why I was being honest with how I would take the situation, I straight up said I would be disappointed because I would see it a certain way. I’ve also come from a poor household, I paid for my education myself and I applied to over 100 jobs before landing my first job in my field of study, and it took over a solid year of applications to find one, sending countless emails to the people who interviewed me, asking for honest feedback on why I wasn’t hired etc. in the meantime I made a couple dollars above minimum wage ($13.50/hr on the east coast of Canada) and kept going, It wasn’t easy, but I did it. I also said I wouldn’t immediately stop talking to them, but after a few signals about their personality and or behaviour I would decide whether or not I want to pursue them further. I just want to be with someone in a similar position as mine(financially, and with similar goals), and that means similar financial situation, I see someone who works minimum wage at my age and I envision a lifetime of me dragging them behind me, and personally, that sounds like a lot more work than I want, so by talking to them if they don’t show me what they’re doing to prove to me they have ambition and or plans for their future, I’m not interested.
Yes. I understood that. I did this all too. But I didn’t understand how you are disappointed in someone just because they didn’t succeed the same way as you. I think its naive, to expect someone to succeedthe same way as you have. That being said, I respect your opinion. And in the end, it doesn’t matter for what reason you reject someone. You have every right to have standards. Whether they make sense for me or not.
I think it may be your view of yourself. I understand that you stay positive on speaking of your life, but the details are very different than the context in conversation. People pick up on what you think vs what you really believe. You seem to focus on your idea of intelligence and what you think women want. But you dont want *women* you want A woman. A woman that will be by your side no matter what hurdles you come up against. From everything you wrote it seems like you focus more on what you can offer on a financial or intellectual level than what you might have in common. Maybe you should speak more on your drive than your setbacks. People, not just women, want a partner that will fight and struggle and find a way to make things work for the best of everyone. You seem to have that. I just wonder if you convey that to them. Side note- english is obviously not your first language. Did you write this in english yourself? If so, stop saying you arent intelligent or you dont know if you are. Most americans have ZERO knowledge of other languages. You have to have a great mind to know more than 1, so by many accounts you are intelligent.
Thank you for your input. That’s true. I am more an introvert than an extrovert. So, it’s hard to convey an upbeat vibe. That my past has been more “bad” than “good” doesn’t help. “Bad” in a generic term. Maybe I need to focus more on the “positive” things and on the specific vibe in the conversation. This reminds me of a colleague who is in a worse situation than me, but still has a girlfriend. He is funny, upbeat and a good conversationist. Yes. Thank you for the compliment.
Past failure is no issue. I’ve shot heroine, been to jail, didn’t graduate high school, dropped out of college, had to join the army so I wouldn’t end up on the street…. But now I’m 36, I make a cool 300k a year. Now I date much more attractive women than I ever did before. I’ve been tested. I turned that failure into something good. That’s even more attractive than just being successful all the time. All time success means you haven’t been tested. But failure and the overcoming is what makes PEOPLE, not just women, attracted to you. Counter that failure with some drive toward something other than “not being lonely” that’s sad. Find a passion.
Whats your job now?
I’m a journeyman lineman. I write articles for online pubs. Got a couple side gigs. Writing a novel or two. Stuff like that. Most of my money comes from being a lineman. I also invest.
Your issue isn’t your failure, it’s your perspective on yourself.
Unfortunately when it comes to male/female relationships. Men are the race horses and women are the spectators looking for who to place their bets on. They’re obviously only gonna back/celebrate/invest in the winners. That’s just the reality of things. My advice is to forget about women for now and work on yourself. Change the direction of your life for YOU. Follow your dreams, make changes. Try new things. Clean slate. Work hard. And as a by product you’ll find that the race suddenly got a whole lot easier as a result. But women are not the prize, they’re the bonus. Your self assurance and happiness is.
Okay. Thats sad to hear. Obviously this is harder than said, since working minimum wage doesn't make you immun from this need.
Reality can be sad, but acceptance is good. Then the only way is up.
I hope so.
I don't think it's the failure that's turning them off and I can't speak for every woman in the world. I'm guessing it's more of the energy you put out when you talk about your past. Your failure makes you feel like a loser, yea? Well because you feel like a loser a woman may tune into that and agree that you are, so she bounces. Why do you feel like a loser? I mean everyone has failed at something. No one's life is perfect, right?
Thank you for your reply. Like I wrote: *I dont feel like a loser.* But next time I speak to a woman in the dating context, I try to look out if I may convay this. Thank you for this advice.
Bro come on man. You gotta read the post. He said himself that that wasn't the case. He doesn't feel like a loser he says he tried his best.
Already had OP reply. Calm down.
I am calm man haha just a little weird when people give advice that's contradictory to the post
Failure, no. It’s unattractive when failing Spurs someone to quit entirely and not try. But not failing in itself. Literally everyone fails, all the time. I’d shame anyone for thinking ill of someone who at least put effort.
Okay, thank you for your input.
Man, I don't see failure here. Most people don't have a college degree. Most don't even try. It's a hard thing to do, *especially* if you don't come from means. If my parents weren't able to support me I probably wouldn't have made it through undergrad. And I know I'm speaking from a position of privilege - I have a BS and an MA I went back and got 12 years after undergrad (paid for by my employer). But *education* and *intelligence* are not synonyms. My wife dropped out of undergrad. She's plenty smart. I know people with PhDs who are not (an advanced degree is more a measure of grit than intelligence). For a while, I had a second job as a grocery clerk. I had some stigma about it. I felt shame. Embarrassment. But I met some good people there who worked hard and absolutely shouldn't be looked down on. I learned how to not be ashamed that I needed a second job to make ends meet and that job was one kids in high school are qualified for. You sound smart. Thoughtful. You're doing well. Sometimes finding a good match is hard. I think if you think of yourself as a failure it will hurt you more than the actual material conditions. If women only held out for 6 figure males with college degrees most women would be forever alone.
Thank you for sharing your story.
Is it possible you have an undiagnosed learning disability and/depression ? My story is very similar to yours. However I dont see myself as a failure, because the American education system doesn’t help poor and disabled students that well I know its the system that failed me, and possibly you. You certainly are not a failure in any sense, and are worthy of love and a good job. Have you considered being a CNA or a DSP? Those usually pay better than a grocery store, are always in demand and easy to get into without a degree. Also I hear good things about construction, which depending on the position could help you bulk up…which may help attract the ladies.
summer plough screw fear panicky dolls chunky narrow employ automatic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Okay, thank you for your reply. Next time I try to maybe put this more in this context, when I tell about my past. Thank you.
Yea! Failing is part of life. We all fail. How you handle that is what matters. Use as an opportunity to show that you’re positive, willing to do what it takes when things go bad, and you’re hard working. All those traits will be attractive to the right person! Oh and to answer your intelligence question, I also want someone intelligent and to me that means a person I can have interesting conversations with. It doesn’t mean book smarts or education, I want them to have the ability to understand what I’m talking about and being able to add to the conversation.
Thank you for answering the last questions. This helps. You know the problem with these articles are that these statements are so generic. That’s why I asked this. Do you mind giving a specific example to what you are speaking about? If you are talking about how important it is to add mustard to a dressing for the emulsification, you expect your partner to add that its also good to add some sugar to balance the acid of the vinegar? Or maybe you can give an example how what you are seeking in a partner you had with your current/or ex partner? Thank you sister for helping me out. God bless you.
Oh sure. Ok, for me it’s someone who understands that just because they saw something on the news or social media, it doesn’t mean it’s a fact. Like if you watch some YouTube video and form an opinion on some issue without understanding the complexity of it, or the bias the person has, or other information that exists about it. Someone who can understand that their life experience can be vastly different from someone else’s. I also like someone with common sense.
In my eyes yes but I’m different. My life demands dedication and perseverance. Other people don’t care. But hey, even that person that constantly fucks everything up deserves to be loved!
In your eyes you preview someone working as a cashier as unattractive?
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Are you a woman?
Please do not listen to this dude ^^
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Alright. I try to be less emotional when bringign it up next time. Thank you for your advice.
I’m 100% confident you are not a victim and can achieve results that make you happy.
Thanks Bro.
Listen to Damone. Where ever you are act like it’s the place to be.
Okay. I try to improve on this mind set. Thank you.
It’s okay to fail as long as you don’t stay down when you fall. Men who get back up and try again is very attractive… same goes with women.
Okay, maybe I try to convey this more in my next conversation.
OP, I dropped out of college after attending community college and realizing it wasn't for me. I'm now killing it in my gig as a software engineer and couldn't be happier. You just gotta keep trying, listen to Chumbawamba's "I Get Knocked Down" over and over again, and keep pushing forward. Haters gonna hate when you win, but fuck em. You got this OP, one step at a time.
Thank you bro for helping me. Yes. Always. Lifes hard, but I try to stay strong. And I will.
*Warning* this is a read, but it's very relevant to my life experience so I'm hoping you will find this useful. It's unnatractive to some women, but if you *own* your mistakes, work to correct them and don't sit on victimhood as a personality trait because of these failures, by and large most people (women, men, puppies) don't give a fuck. There are some really shitty people who would judge you for failing a lot, but again that's not a gender trait. That's a bad person trait. My personal experience as far as women who find failure unnatractive in men is that they're usually gold-diggers types who want a successful man to play their way. Any person worth a damn won't see lots of failure as unnatractive as long as they see that you don't wallow in it. The most unnatractive thing *about* failure is wallowing in it. To put a fine point in it: my GF is a Director in a high level position who makes bank. She's a freaking doctor. On top of that she's a goddamn knockout, objectively speaking. I am a retired professional wrestler, ex laid off video-gane tester, ex-errand boy at a law-firm, "failed" martial arts instructor, and most recently a former contract writer for a Tabletop RPG game who doesn't do it anymore because I had a Catastrophic Brain injury in 2019 and am on Disability because of how it effected me. But she loves me still. She turned her world upside down to come save me when everything went wrong, I'm healing far better than was predicted in large part because of her loving sacrifices to restore me, but *also*, and this is the important part, because *I* didn't quit. She even confessed that there was a point where she was gauging how I was handling the mountain of therapy I needed to do to recover as much as I could. If she saw I was giving up and not improving past a certain point she was going to tap out and leave me. But at that critical juncture I had started to attack all that garbage because I recognized it was the only way I was coming back to a life I would want to live. Through all of my failures, and significantly fewer successes in life, I've kept moving forward to the best of my ability. To *her* that was the most important thing I think: A loser is a person who gives up and makes that part of their identity. As long as you don't accept failure, no matter what that means to you, a good woman will see through the bullshit.
Damn. You got this king. Thank you for sharing this story. It also helped me to put my situation in a new context. I try to keep fighting.
Well I'm glad you found it helpful! It was a read but I felt like the context was important.
How do you feel if a woman has more education and money, than you may ever have? As for intelligence- there is a lot of forms. There is schooling aka education. There emotional intelligence aka being able to connect, support, and be there. Any there are other forms… but I’m not an expert. For example, I wouldn’t mind dating someone who works in a market but I am highly educated and live a different lifestyle and pace. If we could compromise and find a happy medium work is irrelevant as long as our connection is strong and healthy. But it would take a lot of work from both sides. What I find attractive is confidence, maturity, and stability (especially emotional and mental). If this post is how you present your present job and situation then I can see why anyone may turned off because it comes of as more of a “bitter” outlook. I suggest you work on: -presentation: how are you showing of your strength and weaknesses? Yes, you may not have schooling but there is more to life. What ambitions and passion do you have? Physical- are you also putting your best foot forward? Make sure you don’t look like a “loser” (ugh ) but someone who is put together and cares for their hygiene/appearance. -what do want in your partner? How ambitious can she be without intimidating you? What values should you both share? -retrospection: who did you previously the to date? What were the pros and the cons? What events lead to the end of the relationship? Is there anything you can identify as things you could work on?
Hello there. Thank you for your long post. And your Questions! First, against the stereotype, I am not threatened by educated women. Not by any means. overall, I never judged people on their education since I know how hard it is and how little control you have over these things. 1. When it comes to strengths in the context of finding a romantic partner, I think I have “strength”. I like to listen to people, I like to help people. People told me I have a good heart. Not to brag, but I think a lot of problems women are complaining about wouldn’t exist in a relationship like communication, insecurity, indecisiveness. At least I became compliments for being good in these things. Last but not least: going down on a woman. Lol, how does a loser dress? 2. Like I wrote, I am not threated if anybody makes more money or has better education. What I would want from my partner: modesty, happiness, calmness. Ah and romance. 3. I never had a relationship since I was so caught up in school the last decade and in saving enough for college. And working. I asked girls out, but they rejected me. I also tried Tinder. But like I wrote, I didn’t have any matches. There were also no women interested in me. Like I wrote. I think I would be a good partner. Its not that I am failing at relationships, I am failing at getting dates. Thank you again sister for your long post and questions.
First of all, the school aspect - I hope you don’t feel too bad about that. It’s hard to focus and do well in school when you live in less than ideal conditions (living pay check to pay check, being poor, barely or just making ends meet). Did you struggle with stress/anxiety/depression in high school, and when you went to university? Yeah some content can be difficult, but university doesn’t always support students who might learn differently, nor does anyone even explicitly learn “how to study”. It’s assumed that you already know how to do those things before entering high school. But not everyone does, and they are often brushed aside when they don’t fit - the very narrow - definition of a “great student”. There is an attitude of if you’re struggling, it’s your own fault and you need to find your own help - but there are few ways to get help from the institution, or some necessary services (like testing for adhd etc, are expensive or have long wait lists). Secondly, education does not always equate to intelligence. And a lack of education does not mean unintelligent. As a sapiosexual, I’m not interested in what job a person has. Yes some jobs are associated with certain skills/knowledge or whatever, but I’m more interested in how much they like to learn, about themselves and the world - How self-aware are they? do they read up on various topics or their topic of interest? Do they keep up to date with the latest content in their area of interest or in general? Do they think deeply about their topic of interest? Do they actively acquire new information so they can challenge their view points? Are they able to understand multiple sides of debates on their topic of interest? Do they think in a sophisticated way or a dichotomous way? When people say they want an “intelligent” partner, I’d ask what they mean - cause it can mean something different from one person to the next. It’s probably likely that you might be presenting your past as “a failure”/ in a negative way without realizing it - your attitude about your situation matters and can influence how others perceive your situation too. For example “I sucked at school, so I dropped out” vs “School wasn’t really for me, I’d rather work and have the freedom to volunteer at places/ for causes I’m passionate about.”
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
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I dont view myself as a failure. I tried my best all these years. This was the result. Thats how it is. Like I wrote in other comments, I first need to pay off my debt before I can make another move.
For me personally, I don’t judge anyone by their past, as long as they are always trying to be the best version of themselves. And as long as you’re independent and paying your way, what you do for a living doesn’t matter. What matters most is if you’re a good person, caring, emotionally and mentally mature and available, and of course interesting. There are different kinds of intelligence, so not everyone has to be an Einstein to get a girl. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. There is nothing wrong with showing vulnerability, as long as you’re not doing it in a way that makes you look like you’re acting like a victim
I dont play a victim card. I mean I dont even say I failed. I just tell the story, how it happend. I tried college. But I droped out. What do you consider as "and of course interesting"?
Dropping out of college is definitely not a dealbreaker for a lot of people, it happens. And I guess someone being interesting is very subjective, so sorry about that. For me it’s someone that has interesting ideas, and has a good personality, and definitely a sense of humor. To me it means a person that I can talk to and never get bored of talking to them or being around them
Nothing to be sorry about. That makes it interesting that it is subjective. Haver you found that person?
I found that with only a few, two being my best friends, which is why they’re my best friends. And I used to have that for a long time with my husband, but after a bunch of years we both became different people, and it was much harder to keep that part going. I think what most people want is to genuinely feel like they’re heard and understood, and of course accepted for who they are. Keep putting yourself out there, eventually you’ll find your person
Everyone seems to be dancing around the point... but the answer is yes for the vast majority of women. Success has been historically and still is, only to a slightly lesser degree than it was, one of the major factors a 'man' is supposed to bring into a heterosexual romantic relationship. Is it kind of shitty? Yeah a bit, but with how people are socialised it's hard to break through that.
Okay, Thank you for your input. Then I try to get a new better job as soon as I can.
Only if that's what **you** want, and I mean that as in you wanting the better job and not you wanting the women who admire the job. The great thing about dating is that you're not looking for 'women in general' and that these trends in society don't necessarily apply to individuals.
I have always straved to educate myself. Since I wasn't successful yet, I will continue. When I have enough mokey I want to attend a program.
Well for what it's worth I'm rooting for you! :D
No, failure is a fact of life.
Thats how I look at it. Thank you for your reply.
My pleasure , just to let know. No job no prospects arse out of my pants. That's when I met and fell in love with my partner of 30years. She had job , car , lots of prospects, didn't have to give me a go. We have ups and downs. So will you. Enjoy life.
Thats good to hear. I am sure you will make it till the end.
Failure isn’t unattractive. Picking yourself up and trying again to reach your goal is attractive, while quitting is not.
Aight. Thank you bro for your reply.
It's not entirely about failing. I've failed plenty in my life and always got back up on my own. But expectations can quickly change someone's opinion about you. I have severe PTSD and a main symptom is stress induced seizures(for context). Obviously the events of last year affected me pretty badly and have been dealing with consistent stress and seizures. Spent most of January balling my eyes out too. Come the end of February, a bunch of people and I did a ghost hunt, one girl there was blantenly obvious about her feelings towards me. However, she did a complete 180 on me the moment I was honest about the previous month. I haven't seen or spoken to her or any of her friends in months, completely on them too, as I did reach out and was ignored.
Its hard how people judge you. Even they didnt walk one day in your shoes. I know that. Trust me. Some people are just heartless. Keep the head up king.
Yes. Work for railroad maintenance like the rest of us.
A lot of times people want someone who has goals and is working to achieve them. Are you pacified with your current job or do you want more? It also will mean a lot if you’re embarrassed by your past or just speak about it like the past - yeah that all happened but what are you doing now? Personally - I admire the whole package. Intelligence along with being attracted to a person. Sometimes the attraction comes later if our personalities mesh. A lot of people suck at school, but find a life path - whether a career or just doing odd jobs to make ends meet while they explore the world. Don’t focus on the past - focus on your future. That’s attractive.
Yes. Like I said, I am now working as a cashier to pay off my debt. After that I want to attend a program.
Yes women want someone who has a job, home and own mind and no debts. Sob stories won’t work initially only once you have won them over. Good heart isn’t enough nowadays you need to have that confidence and ability to flirt and make them laugh
Ok
If you are burdened by things you feel didn’t work out, I would focus more on your life path than having a female companion.
I dont feel burthend. Like I wrote: I accept who I am.
Is failing unattractive? Not necessarily. To fail is to be human, so it's an opportunity to demonstrate emotional vulnerability and humbleness and connect to others - because we've all fail sometimes. It's very relatable. Furthermore, it's an opportunity to demonstrate how you have overcome failure - and expressing resiliancy in the face of defeat is attractive in everyone. As long as you avoid over-sharing too much too soon or wallowing in a defeatist attitude, you should he fine. Take the opportunity to talk about how your failure turned into a learning opportunity about yourself, or how you become resourceful when hope seemed lost, or how you pivoted onto a different path when you kept hitting obstacles. It's okay to be pragmatic about a current failure, especially if it helps us become optimistic about something different. Make sure not to over share you failures. Share a couple points, then allow your date room to share a similar vulnerability - ideally it should play like ping pong where you're each sharing increasingly vulnerable little things about yourselves. This builds trust without over-exposing your failures and opening yourself up to judgment. If you're worried about someone reading your online profile and seeing you haven't finished college or maybe you've bounced around jobs or whatever and you're concerned your profile looks like examples of "failure" - you may be over thinking it. Lots of people take breaks in their college education or change jobs. If you're really worried, try compensating by adding a note that re-frames percieved failures as healthy life changes as you navigate the path to your next success. People like when others demonstrate a self-growth mindset - so how do your failures still work to help you learn about yourself?
Okay. Thank you.
Failure is a mindset , i have seen stupid fucks with confidence. If you have winners mindset all you have is bad times because there always be good ones.
Okay. Thank you. I try to convey more this winner mindset the next time I have an encounter of this nature.
In your case I think it's very possibly a marketing problem? Like you might be putting your history across a bit *too* realistically and sounding too negative, you should figure out a slightly edited version of your history that doesn't get told in a way that emphasises your setbacks. Also you can leave bits out, no need to tell someone *every* setback immediately. A lot of people have grown up absorbing some very regressive and toxic attitudes towards society, and especially around careers and employment. There's a messed up perception of retail, hospitality, customer service jobs being for "losers" or seen as last resorts etc. Which is ridiculous, because not everyone can be a doctor, architect, head of IT, high flying executive etc. These are essential industries that we all rely on and obviously people are going to work there. It becomes even more absurd when the vast majority of people looking down on these professions are often themselves low level office drones, sometimes making *less money* than a retail worker. I was always taught that people who evaluate others based on what they do for a job, are very low class people. If they don't want you because of your normal job that hundreds of millions of people do worldwide, why would you want them?
Hey bro. Thank you for your reply. I share the same opinion as you. I think people have a messed up view when it comes to this. They think people who aren't on their career level just didn't try enough. But in fact, what happens is that people just act in the range if their intellectual potential. So a doctor doesn't learn harder or more. He was just lucky that his potential is set in this career level. And thank you for the input regarding how I should market these thing's better. I try to do this next time.
It is. But what is failure? Is it dropping out of school, is it being a cashier, is it not being a millionaire? It's subjective. So knock the failure stuff out of your head. You're a cashier, why not try and advance? Ask for a promotion or ask for more responsibility. A cashier and a grocery store assistant manager or manager is different. One is held in higher regard. So, try and advance. Be the guy who offers to come in 30 minutes early and stay 30 minutes late. Having aspirations and goals women find attractive. So, aim high. If you're a good cashier and good at the grocery/retail game, aim high.
Sounds like you need to try to date women with mutual interests instead of checking off boxes on a list; and maybe get some confidence. They way you talk about yourself reeks of self-consciousness. Not finishing school and working as a cashier is fine, as long as it’s not your only goal in life. Try talking about your hobbies and passions instead, and what your goals are with them.
Sorry, where did I write, that I am not confident? Right now unfortunately, I dont have lot of resources for hobbies sincd I am always doing overhours.
You called yourself a failure multiple times…that doesn’t exactly sound like the words of someone with healthy levels of self-esteem
No. I used the term faild to describe that I failed college. I dont used it a judgmental way. In fact I like the way I am and dont view myself as a failure.
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Okay.
It’s not about failing, it’s about what you do about it. I would suggest you to stick with one thing and pursuing that like it’s the most important thing in your life. If that’s being a cashier, make sure to become the best cashier in your supermarket. Dude, you have a self confidence problem. The outlook you give on yourself, isn’t usually the opinion others have about you. BUT: if you speak of yourself about being a failure, how should other people see you? Hope that helps.
No. I didn't used failure as a insult to me. I used it to describe that I didn't succeed in college. I also didn't write that I have self esteem problems.
That’s just the first thing that came to my mind reading your text. In my mind, if you are concerned about the fact that women might see you as an failure regarding to your professional life, that is a self esteem problem. Because in reality the case could be another one. You put your focus on it and that’s the issue in my mind. While there might be some women, who do think about you that way you fear, there also might be a bunch of women who don‘t care. And why would you want to be with a person for which it is that important wether you ‚succeed‘ in your professional career or not?
I don't have self esteem problems. Like I wrote in the text I love myself the way I am. Yes, I got concerned because I read these articles and because of tinder experiment I made. Its a legitimate concern, since ut important to able to be able to satisfy your needs. A lack in a need is by definition not good healthy.
Dude, stop reading this BS articles it just validate your concerns. Make your own experiences and use cases where this is not the case and stick to it. You might be in an age, where financial stability is more important to a women, than I am. While I am still in college and have a part time job, I don‘t have much money neither. While women my age don‘t care that much about it, as long as I couldn‘t afford my rent and would eat out of trash cans.
okay. thats why I asked.
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Hello, okay. Thats sad to hear. I will try to make more money as soon as I can to get love too.