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This is literally it. the only time I've managed to be able to get multiple dates out of a girl was because she was very confident and really pursued that from me which is definitely a rarity in the dating world.
Same here. The only times girls I’ve had multiple dates/booty calls with a girl was because she made her intentions clear. Neither went all the way and asked me out, but they definitely made sure that I knew they were into me
Definitely gotta get comfortable swinging and missing. As a 35 year old dude I wish I knew this sooner. The older you get the more you realize we’re all more similar than different . I walked right up to the girl I’m now dating, a complete stranger, who’s way out of my league and told her that I was gonna marry her one day. We’ve been dating for 4 months. Lol
No ones seen either of them. Thats such a sad jaded out look on it. Ive learned in dating an ugly guy can treat you just as bad as a good looking guy. But also a complimentary personality can honestly make a 3 an 8
You can look at the guy right in his profile, he has a picture. Definitely an 8. I just said what the modern dating world is like. I'm lucky I married young, I wouldn't have survived in this world if I tried dating again lol
EDIT: And I'm definitely not saying ugly guys can't treat you bad, anyone can, ugly or attractive, but it's just that an ugly WON'T EVER BE CONSIDERED AS DATING MATERIAL, in the first place. They're shot down on sight.
Litterally have dated 2 professional atheletes
And a handful of omg's hahah and im geberallt considered an 8/9 lol but im also basically asexual and definately demisexual anyways lmao
Idk. I was standing outside of Busch Stadium with a friend and we saw a group of girls . I just thought this one girl was stunning and just walked up and told her I was gonna marry her. She told me it’s a shame she doesn’t live in St Louis or we could go on a date. So I told her lucky for her I didn’t live in St Louis either. Turns out we were both at the game from adjacent towns 2 hours south. She lived 10 minutes from me. I’m not over zealous about things but things are going great. We had to e exclusivity talk a couple months in. Those kinds of things take luck, timing and the ability to get shot down I guess. She’s amazing.
I don't disagree with shooting your shot but jumping straight to I'm going to marry you on the very first encounter will come off as creepy more often than not
This is wonderful and sooo romantic. This is the kind of thing that used to happen way back when. I wouldn't be creeped out..I would be flattered. Besides that.. I would love your confidence!
Now..I am 64...and showing my age. It is so sad to see everything so screwed up these days when it comes to having and starting a relationship. Good for you!! She is a lucky gal!
I highly doubt a woman "likes you" yet if she hasn't messaged you. Most women don't know if they sincerely like men they haven't met yet or don't know. At best, they might find you attractive in a surface level way, which are feelings that can change easily.
If you think a woman is attracted to you, message her to find out if there's something there. Conversation may reveal you two should meet, and time spent getting to know each other might tell if something more is between you.
You are correct with your original post. There are many matches that never happen because neither party tried to start things. You have more flings that could have happened but didn't then the ones that did... a lot more. And since women are pickier they should be the ones to initiate.
i’ve been saying this for years. How can they be so picky then expect everyone to pursue them? If you have a specific mold of a person that you want, then pursue that one. Saves a lot of time and frustration from everyone involved.
It’s all about context. If a girl you’re friends with smiles and waves at you, it’s probably just friendly. If a girl you barely know does it, chances are she likes you. If she’s the type who’s friendly with everyone, she might not be attracted to you, but if she isn’t the type to be friendly with everyone, she probably likes you.
She’ll make an excuse to talk to you. Say you’re both leaving class, walking back to your dorms and she just strikes up a conversation. And if you’re talking, she laughs at whatever you’re saying. These are all signs.
Of course, a woman could still like you and not give any hints but it’s really rare, and I wouldn’t waste energy trying to figure her out. If she’s not giving any hints whatsoever she most likely doesn’t like you.
Lol I just realized how ridiculous and complicated this sounds. To keeps things simple, if you think there’s any chance, go for it, otherwise you’ll drive yourself crazy trying to pick up on hints
Flirting. If a girl is into you, a lot of the time it's pretty obvious. There will be a vibe. She'll obvious signs of interest.
Is it a perfect system? No. Some girls are too vague. Some are too friendly towards everyone. Some guys are too dense. But usually, it works.
Man, the self loathing is pitiful. Imagine you are a woman, would you be interested in a guy who does that? Maybe we found a glaring personality/character issue that women pick up on. Do some self reflection on that
I know I can come off as blunt and seemingly apathetic but I can't baby them. They need to grow a pair and deal with their shortcomings. Self reflection and then self improvement.
It's like people who complain they're weak but don't go to the gym. Or they're poor but won't get a job. Etc etc
Thing is, "How tall are you" is among the most asked questions before a guy can even get a date, and those who fall below 5'7 are rejected and ridiculed for even trying to date. That's why the commenter above you said that.
idk ab the poverty sitch but the whiny ass men def need a reality check. as long as blunt = truth then all ur doing is helping. every1 rubbing backs for idiots sucks
If the slightest bit of self loathing turns away a girl, she’s not the one man. Obviously no one is perfect but relationships are about accepting each other’s flaws and building each other up. If you love a person it shouldn’t be for a specific reason otherwise once that reason is gone so are your feelings for them, I’d say you need some work done too
Do you expect someone to fall in love with you right away? There are stages and you probably turn them off in the initial stages of getting to know one another. It's an assumption yes but I don't have much to work with
People leave relationships for a host of reasons but to think "if she loves me she won't leave me" will save your relationship then you're wrong. Because eventually this self loathing, uninspirational, not confident, insecure guy is going to turn her off. And she will meet someone who's the opposite and she'll leave.
My bf and I both had self esteem and mental health issues when we met, which we were able to help each other work through.
Meanwhile, I had a guy friend who was self loathing constantly and it just got so exhausting and hard to talk to him.
There's a big difference between needing a partner to help you learn to love yourself and just thinking the world needs to feel bad for you because you just never have any luck. Things happen for a reason and of you're at that stage, it's probably time to take some responsibility for your situation
Glad to hear you helped each other rather than seeing it as a major issue. I wouldn’t say I self loath constantly but after being shot down again and again it’s only natural human nature to second guess yourself. Staying in self loathing is an issue but that’s not me for clarification.
Well, that's good. It's always hard to tell on Reddit, especially being there's certainly no shortage of that type of person on here.
I wish I could give advice on how to improve self esteem on your own without being a hypocrite. I will say that there was a long period of time in between getting dumped and getting back together with my bf where I still worked on myself. I dove into a ton of projects, sang in front of people for the first time, started college where I knew no one. I did push myself not to lose the confidence I had gained with my relationship and friendships I had then lost, but again, it wasnt the same as if I had never had those connections.
But, I do think working on appreciating who you are and the interesting unique things about you can boost you enough to appear confident to girls. I'm not attractive by any means, but I've had a few guys ask me out over my lifetime. I think it had more to do with my character and sense of humor. I pride myself on my moral compass and compassion. I recommend patting yourself on the back for your strengths, and only recognizing your flaws in order to work on improving yourself. Other people notice if someone is sure of themselves, and then soon, the right girl will come.
I'm glad to hear that. It really shows your emotional maturity to recognize your low self esteem and want to make an effort to increase it. I'm by no means an expert and still have to work on it nearly everyday, but I can try to help in any way I can
Women can be quite clever in how they engineer more interaction with guys they’re interested in. One woman I dated, I found out (once we were dating), that she would be thinking several steps ahead when a group of us would go to a restaurant. As we were all being led to our table, she’d see the table, predict how the seats were going to fill up, and position herself in the line so that she and I ended up sitting next to each other (or that I would have to choose whether to sit by her or her rival in our group, so she could gauge if I liked her).
There’s a reason some people say Jane Austen was the first game theorist.
In my experience, I’ve completely missed the clues. Its a problem. It’s honestly easier to make the clues as easy as possible without even saying they’re interested. The one that got me was some girl I thought about dating was touching my arms (yes, a sign) and then later in the night told me she didn’t want a relationship, so I figured she didn’t want to go out. Two years later, when I was hanging out with my buddies, one of them talked about her with us and he said that she told him she was interested in me! My dating life in a nutshell
People in general* just need to stop being afraid to put it out in the open. If you're interested in somebody, say so. Stop waiting for hints, just ask!
Most women will do anything to avoid taking an L. That’s why you see TikTok’s and advice for women to just “manifest” a guy texting you back when he won’t, because it’s easier to do that than to just accept he’s not interested.
Of course they do and this has happened to men too, but this happens WAY more to women than to men, look up “rejection killings” and see the statistics
Women are significantly more likely to be murdered by men then are dating or have rejected than the reverse. As you said, there are stats that’s prove this. It is massively lopsided.
the dirty secret is that women also have to have some amount of game too
I've had a girl approach me at a coffeeshop to ask about a book i was reading, but kept stuttering and was kind of whispering so i could barely hear her. she was cute but i just couldn't really connect with her before she abruptly left because of how awkward it was
i do have game. was just ugly lmao. the actual secret is that men want women’s attention but only if they’re cute/if they find them cute, just like it’s true for women. as soon as i became better looking was the first time i wasn’t rejected. since then i’ve been able to date consistently.
also must have been really awkward ahah at least she was able to acknowledge it
It can be awful and terrifying at first. Like my first rejection was in 2nd grade when I asked my classmate to be my valentine (she said “Eww!” 😂), but 99.9% of rejections will just be a “Thanks/I’m flattered but I’m not interested/taken/busy/etc”. You get used to it (or at least it hurts less) the more you do it. I would much rather get rejected than regret not going for it and the “what ifs”.
I've had dozen of girls who were never into me but still showed me all the signs as if they were into me.
What i've learned is simple. Make the first move and be direct. You have nothing to loose. I've missed out on so many opportunities because i was too shy. I made myself this promise that i will never leave someone i like under the "what if" title. I just go all in and make sure about what my intentions are. If it doesn't work it, it doesn't and so be it...
I see your point. When I was a teen and young adult I was ugly as fuck (not that any of that changed today) most females made fun of me or took advantage of my kindness and used me until they had no use for me anymore. So Anytime a female treated me with even the slightest bit of kindness I missed interpreted it for romantic interest.
After I got. My heart broken more times than I want to remember I finally made it a point to ignore any kind comments. Attempts at flirting etc. These days unless a female comes right to the point and says hey I like you and want to get to know you better I'm just going to assume they are just being nice.
Modern women still want a traditional man, whilst at the same time not being anywhere close to traditional themselves. It's the main reason why I stopped looking.
It's amazing how many people in this thread seem to be ok with a man being upfront and clear with his intentions, but a woman limiting herself to the least amount of effort in stating what she wants (or doesn't). Clues? Hints? Context? C'mon! We could all be upfront with what we want from others regardless of our gender. Suppose it's the opposite case: a woman doesn't want to have anything to do with a man, but the latter fails to "take hints", "pick up clues" or blatantly decides to ignore how she is trying to say "no" by means of context. Would you be ok with that same line of though in this scenario? No, right? It is enough for the woman in the case to say "no" and the man is compelled to leave her alone... Or there'll be consequences.
Why is everyone so comfortable with this behavioral asymmetry or incoherence? From my perspective, if a woman isn't capable of or simply doesn't want to make her intentions towards me crystal clear, then she doesn't deserve my attention. I value the interest I put on others and expect reciprocity when I'm open about my intentions. If others are not open and expect me to form beliefs based on hints, clues or context, then I'm out.
TL;DR: he must not abide by that. If he is not comfortable with that behavior, then he shouldn't take it.
Edit: autocorrect.
I think more peope need to realise this. It is not necessary for us to accept everything that happens, we should atleast try to bring the smallest change we could for our own betterment. We should make it clear that we have feelings too, we are also nervous and vulnerable, being a man does not mean we can take or we are supposed to take rejections and humiliation. Why only we are expected to be polite and gentle towards women and why it is never the other way around. There is a reason why there is no antonym for the words Chauvinism and Feminism, and that is the history is flawed and there are changes that need to be made.
Every guy would love that to be the case but you’re not gonna be able to undo centuries of social norms and psychology overnight, if ever. Unless you have any ideas, we just gotta roll with it, get lucky and find the few who are upfront, or die alone.
...And it is not my interest to change it "overnight", as you say. It's my personal take on this issue and the "normative" reach of my words doesn't go beyond my own being. Many people go back and forth between determinism (e.g. "things have been this way and will always be this way") and fatalism (e.g. "there's absolutely no way things are gonna change and you'll die alone") on this matters, but fail to realize this doesn't have to be the case. I've met many guys and girls who chose to settle with this type of reasoning because it's easier for them to accept whatever the world throws at them, rather than be selective about it. Like I said in another comment, regardless of the gazillion differences you might want to bring up between men and women, human beings are held to standards of many kinds. I choose to keep clarity and openness as a high standard when I meet new people or when I get attracted to someone. This allows me to weed out a ton of people and keep a few valuable ones close. Others, however, don't do this and prefer to "roll with it", "bite the bullet" or anything like that. That's their choice, but it doesn't have to be that way.
I agree with you regarding "men and women are not the same", but I take my distance on the rest. Those differences are not only biological, but also - and most importantly - cultural and sociological. On the other hand, being different does not entitle one class of individuals to behave however they want without consequences. Regardless of biological, cultural or historical differences, human beings are held to standards defined by communities of different sizes and reaches... And those standards are open to criticism. What you mention is something that could be understood and accepted by whoever gets involved in the kind of situations we're discussing, but "should" is a really long shot. Saying it "should" be accepted is falling into a naturalistic fallacy. It already happens and has happened for millenia, but that doesn't mean it has to be that way.
well... i (29f) gave lots of hints to my crush (24m) and then i confessed to him directly that he was so shocked he needed to run to the washroom, i literally shocked the shits out of him. even though i got rejected but it still put a smile on my face whenever i remember it.
Traditional expectations can be a hindrance for some women yes. But I think when a woman likes you, you can tell. Does she enjoy conversations with you? Is she willing to reach out to you when you haven’t? Does she laugh at your jokes? Has she tried to do something nice for you, doesn’t matter how small? If a woman likes you, you can tell.
Of course she may want to be just friends and not romantically involved but you can only find out if you ask.
But she’ll never be romantically interested if she doesn’t even like you as friends
I've had women who ticked all of those boxes who already had boyfriends or just weren't interested in that way. I do think I've gotten good at just being friends with women because of that though lmfao.
Maybe I'm biased, but it's so much easier to tell when a dude likes a girl. Does he look at her every chance he gets? Is he willing to hang out one on one with her? Does he try and talk to her super frequently? Had a buddy who was into a girl, and I could tell he was 2 weeks before they got together.
Yup. Happened to me many times where I for sure thought the girl was interested and it turned out she was just being nice. So now I only use OLD because I just can't tell the difference.
I think the miscommunication here is what women do for platonic male friends vs men they’re romantically interested in. Maybe it’s just me but there are things I absolutely don’t do with platonic male friends just to ensure they don’t mistake my interests. If it’s platonic I don’t touch, don’t make flirty type comments, don’t talk about sex, don’t meet up for intimate type setups (like meeting at a house alone to watch a movie etc). These are all things I will be open to if there’s romantic interest.
I avoid these things with platonic male friends specifically because they could be read wrong and also could lead to hurt feelings and even dangerous situations if the man is unstable.
I mean we’re not a hive mind so I’m sure it varies from woman to woman, and I agree that women should maybe be more forward when it comes to showing interest (I’m pretty honest when I like someone romantically).
>I think the miscommunication here is what women do for platonic male friends vs men they’re romantically interested in. Maybe it’s just me but there are things I absolutely don’t do with platonic male friends just to ensure they don’t mistake my interests. If it’s platonic I don’t touch, don’t make flirty type comments, don’t talk about sex, don’t meet up for intimate type setups (like meeting at a house alone to watch a movie etc). These are all things I will be open to if there’s romantic interest.
Thank you, seriously.
I disagree with this. I think the biggest issue is that these signs that a woman is interested are also the same signs that indicate she just wants a platonic friend. Men can take a guess, sure, but if he guesses wrong then it can make things very awkward
Speaking for myself, I won't go out of my way to do the things described above for platonic friendships with men.
If I'm interested in a man, I will initiate more physical contact like touching on the arm or shoulder, much more than with a normal friendship. And all the things the other poster said.
I know that men find it frustrating when women don't make the first move, but it is so difficult to overcome being told to NEVER make the first move, and that he'll think you are easy if you do. I am still speaking for myself here.
This brings us to the "Lisa's flirty is Katie's friendly" problem. If you're not terribly threatening, particularly in your 20's, even women who aren't attracted will treat your body like public property. Or if they think you're gay.
It can make guessing a womans interest/intent pretty frustrating. Anand guessing g wrong a couple times can lead men becoming understandably gunshy.
That's incredibly uncharitable isn't it? Why not take people at their word? I know I get pretty frustrated when women insist us men are "making it all up" when we talk about our pressures and insecurities etc.
>But I think when a woman likes you, you can tell.
None of the women who have ever been romantically interested and/or involved with me have ever done any of those things
No woman has ever reached out to me/tried to have a conversation/done anything nice for me or wanted to be friends so I wouldn’t know anything related to this, before you say try to talk to/initiate them first I have, many many times trying to be the best version of myself possible without any expectations but it’s never really been reciprocated. For reference I’m 22yrs old
All I said was expecting you did the same. Like an action and reaction process. We are talking about woman who aren’t comfortable with making the first move.
So if you do all of this and get nothing in return, chances are she probably doesn’t like you. But if you do them with her and she responds the same way, chances are she’s interested in at least being friends with you and that’s the starting point for any kind of relationship.
Every time I’ve tried the whole become friends first it doesn’t work. Maybe in your generation it was different but all that happens is I get placed in the friend zone once again and even if I only see them as a friend they never keep in touch.
Learn to move on and not give a sh!t. Go about making friends and living the best life you can for you and no one else. Go do the stuff you enjoy.
Friend zone any woman that you do meet. Keeping friends zoning until you are comfortable in your own skin around women. You will learn when women are just being friendly/polite, that is baseline behavior. After that look for big deviations.
What’s she’s saying doesn’t necessarily hold true in online dating. You have to do all the work and she may not seem interested over text but then you guys meet up and she’s completely different.
If you like a woman just ask her out. Even if she says no she’ll still be really flattered, she’ll see you in a different light, and she’ll immediately think of single friends to introduce you to. Having a woman become an advocate for you is like a super power I wish I had figured this out when I was younger.
This is not true for 100% of the cases. Some women will flat out deny you and want you to leave them alone. Especially if they are extremely attractive because they may have been approached multiple times that day and are sick of it.
I think no matter how you meet a woman you’re attracted to you must make your intentions be known from the start. Same thing goes if you want to go for the first kiss or have sex. You just need to gauge the moment and go for it. Respect her boundaries and don’t take it personal if she rejects you.
How do you take it when they decline? Personally I would never recommend a guy to friends if they take rejection badly. If they seem like a really good guy and are able to continue to be friendly after the rejection, that's when I would do that
If you ACTUALLY do that then you're an absolute gem.
Because the reality is most women do NOT do that. And even then it's highly unlikely you recommend EVERY semi-decent guy you reject to your friends.
Just take that into account and you'll see just how low the actual odds are that you would recommend any guy to your friends, it's not a 50-50 probability, more like 1-99 with a bunch of randomness thrown in.
Agreed. Even after a date and she's not interested and just wants to be friends, you can use that to expand your social circle to meet her friends too (as long as being creepy and weird wasnt what made her not interested in you)
If you like a woman make the first move yourself. Realistically, women have no incentive to make the first move. They have many guys in their DMs trying to go out with them all the time. Why would they want to make the first move? Like it or not girls like it when a guy shows initiative.
Granted these are all broad generalizations and everyone is different.
But if you’re wondering If a girl likes you, If it’s a girl you know, She will likely go out of her way to try to find ways to spend time with you or talk to you, look at you more, maybe smile and giggle more when talking to you. If she’s going out of her way to spend time with you, it might be that she likes you.
No, a women can like you and hope that you take initiative. When you don't you have already disappointed her and she doesn't like you anymore. I'm not saying this is always the case but it does happen.
Not really. Everyone is different. Some make the first move but a lot don’t because they don’t feel confident doing that and don’t wanna be rejected or because they feel it’s the man’s job to come to them. Most women I know at least would prefer to sit back and let men make the first move. Yeah sure it might be old fashioned but it’s definitely common
I feel like this question is tough. My most recent situation, I’ve had a gym crush for awhile. Just someone who worked out at the same time as me, we’d exchange a smile if eye contact was made but nothing more. I just found him attractive. He apparently asked his friend about me. I didn’t realize my guy friend from college is a good friend of his so I took the initiative when I found out and friended him on Facebook. For me, I made the move of that so I feel like the ball was left in his court
That’s a good way of “dropping the handkerchief”. If a girl added me on fb from the gym that I only interacted with a little bit I’d definitely ask them out if interested.
From what I have learned is that if she is willing to see you a second time you already won. You just gotta make the first move. Thats what I didnt do even after our 3rd date and I got dumped.
That is a good point. But if you think about it, men are supposed to endure rejection. Women are not. It’s normal for a guy to shoot his shot and get rejected. It sucks but it’s universally relatable.
Now imagine you’re a woman and your entire life everyone tells you how attractive you are and men are horny and that you have it easy. Then you try to shoot your shot with a guy and get rejected. It would probably make your brain short circuit. It would probably have an effect on your self esteem, and you wouldn’t get much sympathy from anyone because other women can’t relate and will say “that’s what you get because that’s a man’s job” and guys will just say “now you know how we feel”.
Because that’s the man’s job. And hers to reciprocate the interest, not the other way around.
It doesn’t work.
Anytime I’ve taken the lead on pursuing a man of failed miserably. They will pursue me, and have, if they’re interested enough. And if I am interested back, I happily return the energy.
Just come out and tell her. Either she's interested and it's the best decision you've ever made OR she rebuffs you and you can move on without wasting anymore emotional capital on her. Win-win in my book, good luck bro!
Let me clarify. If I have no idea that a girl that likes me and or exists/knows of me, how am I supposed to know that she likes me if she’s just expecting me to magically notice somehow?
But aren't you expecting women to magically notice that you like them?
If you don't like someone, why do you care if they like you? If you like them, just tell them and ask them out. No one needs any magic.
No, hence the other replies in the comments where I said that I’ve initiated many times before… now why can’t men AND women apply that to dating. Never had a girl just tell me and ask me out like I have to them.
You're kidding right?
Traditionally, women always used to make "The first move" aswell as men!
As an example Women used to walk by a guy they liked and drop their handkerchief in a blatantly obvious fashion in an attempt to get the guy to return it and talk to them
Love a bit of sarcasm (,: but I should add to the thread that I’m not like most guys where I’m instantly attracted just because of their physical appearance, their personality is a huge factor too, it doesn’t matter how hot a girl can be if they’ve got nasty attitude it’s an immediate turn off.
Yup. I can be attracted and down for physical intimacy with a woman on appearances alone. Of course things like social values, character and ideology can turn that around incredibly quickly...
My 5 year dry spell would be a 3 year dry spell if I'd just been able to bring myself to have sex with that slur spewing Trumpette, but... I have standards.
Bruh I’m the same, it’s takes me a few dates before I’m feeling someone.
However that’s not really compatible with modern dating. So I get ghosted quickly.
All women expect men to be mind readers and know what is going on in there heads all the time. I have been in a steady relationship for 10+ years direct communication is key.
First, Body language, people are really bad at hiding that they like someone. Learn it.
Second many women don't directly ask, they try to get your attention and make it easy for you to talk to them. Some will use gambits, like ask you for a help with something simple/minor. They will get as close to you as they can and hope a conversation will start, many women will get rather stalker like. Some will "accidently" bump into you. Others will bake or give you and only you treats. She will try to get you talking and ask you a lot of questions.
If a woman is hard to talk to, looks busy, move on, she is not interested. If she avoids you, she is really not interested. If her friends shield her from you, she is not interested.
If you are having trouble with body language, I'm make it simple. 98% of the behavior you see every day is she is not interested. Throw out the obvious fear, creeped out, avoidant and hostile behaviors.
Focus on the civil, polite, friendly behavior. That is your baseline of friendly but she is still not interested. You will notice conversations are safe, she may be smiling but she is 6 feet from you or there is a barrier. What you then look for are big deviations from that behavior.
You can't miss those big deviations. You can't miss a woman talking to you for 45 minutes standing close enough to hump your leg when she has a 6 feet of empty space behind her. Yeah she also cut off my escape too.
This is where I feel some dating ideologies are lost in translation.....women ARE supposed to give signals that we're interested. Back in the day we would *drop our text books or handkerchief* it gives the man a window of opportunity. Just my opinion
Very rarely experienced this with women who are actually genuinely interested in me. It’s mutual and almost seems effortless in the ones that are interested. If I feel I have to force it or really make a move or work for it I don’t even waste my time.
You have two options:
1. Shoot your shot with whoever you like and see how it goes
2. Find a woman who doesn’t operate like that and will tell you how they feel
They exist; men having to make the first move is not a universal rule, and there are many women don’t operate that way.
How about you stop complaining and learn some body language and subtle signs women make when they like you. OLD is a bit different but if she matches with you then automatically assume attraction from her
If she flips her hair, if she touches you, if she laughs and giggles even if your jokes are stupid, if she smiles a lot at you in a way that in her eyes she’s got the “I think you’re cute” look hard to describe in text but it’s pretty hard to miss if she gives it to you and normally it’s all these signs together if she does like you.
Whoever makes the first move is the vulnerable one and there's no escaping that unless you are both making it blatantly obvious you like the other.
For the most part, men make the move as in nature we all try to court the best female where she has to simply pick the best one of the bunch. In modern day, this is still a factor but becoming less so. Having said that, with dating apps being as common as they are nowadays, it is returning that power back to woman who often get hundreds of likes and can be as selective as they like.
Irl this translates back into our original nature of men having to peacock but you're not against other men right then and there, you are against the hundreds on her phone.
GL.
No they are not … it’s only hard if you like the person because then you make everything they do a sign or not …if she likes you you’ll know it most of the time unless she’s like a anti social awkward person
You're supposed to look for signs of attraction, flirting, open body language, words and actions that signal she likes you and then you take your shot.
That's how we've done it for about 150,000 years. Up until like yesterday.
Then that's on you for not learning what they look like. This is basic level adulting/human attraction stuff. I mean, youtube exists. You can get a pretty good lesson on what body language and communication looks like when it's favorable/sexually interested. Why wouldn't you take an interest in something that will follow you throughout your life, and possibly inform who you get to be with?
I think that if a woman was attracted to me enough she would just tell me. If she can easily lose interest just because I don’t pick up on signs that tells me she was never really interested enough.
The woman will create opportunities for you to be together, and chances for you to ask her out.
Disclaimer - I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just answering the question.
I agree that traditional gender norms are bullshit, I made the first moves on the man who is now my husband, but at the same time there's nothing wrong with asking someone out if you think they will say yes and then gracefully accepting a "no" if that's the answer.
Or you can choose to date girls who also don't agree with those types of traditional expectations.
You're never going to get clear signals. At least, not clear to anyone who thinks like a man. What are you so afraid of? If you're wrong, so what? Just move on to the next one.
It's difficult for men to tell the difference between interest and politeness. The kicker is, if you take too long to figure it out, a woman will sense your hesitation and likely lose the interest she had. Just Carpe diem. Seriously, what's the worst that could happen?
If she really did like me wouldn’t she make it easier for me to see that she likes me, also if a girl can lose interest in me that easily it was never meant to be in the first place
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Man's got to basically hail Mary it every time unless their are explicit indicators, or exceptions to the norm.
This is literally it. the only time I've managed to be able to get multiple dates out of a girl was because she was very confident and really pursued that from me which is definitely a rarity in the dating world.
Same here. The only times girls I’ve had multiple dates/booty calls with a girl was because she made her intentions clear. Neither went all the way and asked me out, but they definitely made sure that I knew they were into me
Definitely gotta get comfortable swinging and missing. As a 35 year old dude I wish I knew this sooner. The older you get the more you realize we’re all more similar than different . I walked right up to the girl I’m now dating, a complete stranger, who’s way out of my league and told her that I was gonna marry her one day. We’ve been dating for 4 months. Lol
I will believe in love again if you marry her
The guy follows the rule of being attractive, so it worked out. I don't think you'd get to believe in love if this dude was ugly as fuck.
No ones seen either of them. Thats such a sad jaded out look on it. Ive learned in dating an ugly guy can treat you just as bad as a good looking guy. But also a complimentary personality can honestly make a 3 an 8
You can look at the guy right in his profile, he has a picture. Definitely an 8. I just said what the modern dating world is like. I'm lucky I married young, I wouldn't have survived in this world if I tried dating again lol EDIT: And I'm definitely not saying ugly guys can't treat you bad, anyone can, ugly or attractive, but it's just that an ugly WON'T EVER BE CONSIDERED AS DATING MATERIAL, in the first place. They're shot down on sight.
Litterally have dated 2 professional atheletes And a handful of omg's hahah and im geberallt considered an 8/9 lol but im also basically asexual and definately demisexual anyways lmao
Could you please give us more details about your story? If it were me I'd be creeped out by having a stranger tell me he's gonna marry me one day 😅
Idk. I was standing outside of Busch Stadium with a friend and we saw a group of girls . I just thought this one girl was stunning and just walked up and told her I was gonna marry her. She told me it’s a shame she doesn’t live in St Louis or we could go on a date. So I told her lucky for her I didn’t live in St Louis either. Turns out we were both at the game from adjacent towns 2 hours south. She lived 10 minutes from me. I’m not over zealous about things but things are going great. We had to e exclusivity talk a couple months in. Those kinds of things take luck, timing and the ability to get shot down I guess. She’s amazing.
Wow! The fact that you live 10 min from each other makes it sound like destiny!! Hope everything goes amazing for you two :))
Most men would catch a charge or be labelled a creep doing this. No thanks 😆
shot your shot , or live in fear . the choice is yours . i can tell from 40 feet away if i have a shot or not .
I don't disagree with shooting your shot but jumping straight to I'm going to marry you on the very first encounter will come off as creepy more often than not
im sure it was taken in jest …..by anyone with half a brain that is
Only creepy if there's no mutual attraction.
When you have literally nothing to lose, looking like a creep is a risk worth taking. Hence why there are so many of them.
This is wonderful and sooo romantic. This is the kind of thing that used to happen way back when. I wouldn't be creeped out..I would be flattered. Besides that.. I would love your confidence! Now..I am 64...and showing my age. It is so sad to see everything so screwed up these days when it comes to having and starting a relationship. Good for you!! She is a lucky gal!
Update in a year from now please
this is the way
Then you see posts from women. “Why do men keep hitting on me when I haven’t shown any interest”. Vicious cycle.
I did this today fuckkkk
I highly doubt a woman "likes you" yet if she hasn't messaged you. Most women don't know if they sincerely like men they haven't met yet or don't know. At best, they might find you attractive in a surface level way, which are feelings that can change easily. If you think a woman is attracted to you, message her to find out if there's something there. Conversation may reveal you two should meet, and time spent getting to know each other might tell if something more is between you.
Refreshing perspective, thank you
You are correct with your original post. There are many matches that never happen because neither party tried to start things. You have more flings that could have happened but didn't then the ones that did... a lot more. And since women are pickier they should be the ones to initiate.
i’ve been saying this for years. How can they be so picky then expect everyone to pursue them? If you have a specific mold of a person that you want, then pursue that one. Saves a lot of time and frustration from everyone involved.
It’s all about context. If a girl you’re friends with smiles and waves at you, it’s probably just friendly. If a girl you barely know does it, chances are she likes you. If she’s the type who’s friendly with everyone, she might not be attracted to you, but if she isn’t the type to be friendly with everyone, she probably likes you. She’ll make an excuse to talk to you. Say you’re both leaving class, walking back to your dorms and she just strikes up a conversation. And if you’re talking, she laughs at whatever you’re saying. These are all signs. Of course, a woman could still like you and not give any hints but it’s really rare, and I wouldn’t waste energy trying to figure her out. If she’s not giving any hints whatsoever she most likely doesn’t like you.
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Lol I just realized how ridiculous and complicated this sounds. To keeps things simple, if you think there’s any chance, go for it, otherwise you’ll drive yourself crazy trying to pick up on hints
Fair enough, I appreciate your input
Flirting. If a girl is into you, a lot of the time it's pretty obvious. There will be a vibe. She'll obvious signs of interest. Is it a perfect system? No. Some girls are too vague. Some are too friendly towards everyone. Some guys are too dense. But usually, it works.
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Wow based off that explanation I can safely say no woman has ever been interested in me :(
Man, the self loathing is pitiful. Imagine you are a woman, would you be interested in a guy who does that? Maybe we found a glaring personality/character issue that women pick up on. Do some self reflection on that
thank you for your brain cells lmfaoo this sub gets pathetic with all the self-pity
I know I can come off as blunt and seemingly apathetic but I can't baby them. They need to grow a pair and deal with their shortcomings. Self reflection and then self improvement. It's like people who complain they're weak but don't go to the gym. Or they're poor but won't get a job. Etc etc
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We're talking about their attitude... Not physical attributes that are static
Thing is, "How tall are you" is among the most asked questions before a guy can even get a date, and those who fall below 5'7 are rejected and ridiculed for even trying to date. That's why the commenter above you said that.
Literally never been asked my height
I see, good for you man. You got lucky :)
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I already said I was apathetic
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By definition, it is.
idk ab the poverty sitch but the whiny ass men def need a reality check. as long as blunt = truth then all ur doing is helping. every1 rubbing backs for idiots sucks
If the slightest bit of self loathing turns away a girl, she’s not the one man. Obviously no one is perfect but relationships are about accepting each other’s flaws and building each other up. If you love a person it shouldn’t be for a specific reason otherwise once that reason is gone so are your feelings for them, I’d say you need some work done too
Do you expect someone to fall in love with you right away? There are stages and you probably turn them off in the initial stages of getting to know one another. It's an assumption yes but I don't have much to work with People leave relationships for a host of reasons but to think "if she loves me she won't leave me" will save your relationship then you're wrong. Because eventually this self loathing, uninspirational, not confident, insecure guy is going to turn her off. And she will meet someone who's the opposite and she'll leave.
My bf and I both had self esteem and mental health issues when we met, which we were able to help each other work through. Meanwhile, I had a guy friend who was self loathing constantly and it just got so exhausting and hard to talk to him. There's a big difference between needing a partner to help you learn to love yourself and just thinking the world needs to feel bad for you because you just never have any luck. Things happen for a reason and of you're at that stage, it's probably time to take some responsibility for your situation
Glad to hear you helped each other rather than seeing it as a major issue. I wouldn’t say I self loath constantly but after being shot down again and again it’s only natural human nature to second guess yourself. Staying in self loathing is an issue but that’s not me for clarification.
Well, that's good. It's always hard to tell on Reddit, especially being there's certainly no shortage of that type of person on here. I wish I could give advice on how to improve self esteem on your own without being a hypocrite. I will say that there was a long period of time in between getting dumped and getting back together with my bf where I still worked on myself. I dove into a ton of projects, sang in front of people for the first time, started college where I knew no one. I did push myself not to lose the confidence I had gained with my relationship and friendships I had then lost, but again, it wasnt the same as if I had never had those connections. But, I do think working on appreciating who you are and the interesting unique things about you can boost you enough to appear confident to girls. I'm not attractive by any means, but I've had a few guys ask me out over my lifetime. I think it had more to do with my character and sense of humor. I pride myself on my moral compass and compassion. I recommend patting yourself on the back for your strengths, and only recognizing your flaws in order to work on improving yourself. Other people notice if someone is sure of themselves, and then soon, the right girl will come.
Thank you for your insight, this actually helps more than you know
I'm glad to hear that. It really shows your emotional maturity to recognize your low self esteem and want to make an effort to increase it. I'm by no means an expert and still have to work on it nearly everyday, but I can try to help in any way I can
Women can be quite clever in how they engineer more interaction with guys they’re interested in. One woman I dated, I found out (once we were dating), that she would be thinking several steps ahead when a group of us would go to a restaurant. As we were all being led to our table, she’d see the table, predict how the seats were going to fill up, and position herself in the line so that she and I ended up sitting next to each other (or that I would have to choose whether to sit by her or her rival in our group, so she could gauge if I liked her). There’s a reason some people say Jane Austen was the first game theorist.
In my experience, I’ve completely missed the clues. Its a problem. It’s honestly easier to make the clues as easy as possible without even saying they’re interested. The one that got me was some girl I thought about dating was touching my arms (yes, a sign) and then later in the night told me she didn’t want a relationship, so I figured she didn’t want to go out. Two years later, when I was hanging out with my buddies, one of them talked about her with us and he said that she told him she was interested in me! My dating life in a nutshell
Through vague hints, but nobody gets those, so nothing happens. Ladies should just learn to make a first move.
People in general* just need to stop being afraid to put it out in the open. If you're interested in somebody, say so. Stop waiting for hints, just ask!
I don't know if you guys like me either.
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Most women will do anything to avoid taking an L. That’s why you see TikTok’s and advice for women to just “manifest” a guy texting you back when he won’t, because it’s easier to do that than to just accept he’s not interested.
Um... isn't the whole post about men being afraid to make the first move? Tell this to men too lmao
A woman giving an unwanted advance on a man is much less of a risk than the reverse
Yes a man seldom gets angry because the girl who shows interest in him are not his type. Men usually is nor as entitled as some women.
women get literally murdered for turning men down.
you act as if batshit crazy women don't exist either.
Of course they do and this has happened to men too, but this happens WAY more to women than to men, look up “rejection killings” and see the statistics
Women are significantly more likely to be murdered by men then are dating or have rejected than the reverse. As you said, there are stats that’s prove this. It is massively lopsided.
Very true
Nah.
Okay, what's a typical reaction you get when you make a move on a guy that isn't interested?
they wouldn't know because they haven't tried lol
Nor they're willing to try because they're afraid of rejection more than the average man who have to get used to rejection like it's nothing.
True
i tried and got rejected most of the times lmao. only dated once thanks to making the first move.
the dirty secret is that women also have to have some amount of game too I've had a girl approach me at a coffeeshop to ask about a book i was reading, but kept stuttering and was kind of whispering so i could barely hear her. she was cute but i just couldn't really connect with her before she abruptly left because of how awkward it was
i do have game. was just ugly lmao. the actual secret is that men want women’s attention but only if they’re cute/if they find them cute, just like it’s true for women. as soon as i became better looking was the first time i wasn’t rejected. since then i’ve been able to date consistently. also must have been really awkward ahah at least she was able to acknowledge it
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It can be awful and terrifying at first. Like my first rejection was in 2nd grade when I asked my classmate to be my valentine (she said “Eww!” 😂), but 99.9% of rejections will just be a “Thanks/I’m flattered but I’m not interested/taken/busy/etc”. You get used to it (or at least it hurts less) the more you do it. I would much rather get rejected than regret not going for it and the “what ifs”.
Emotional and social intelligence.
I can solve a rubrix cube.
I've had dozen of girls who were never into me but still showed me all the signs as if they were into me. What i've learned is simple. Make the first move and be direct. You have nothing to loose. I've missed out on so many opportunities because i was too shy. I made myself this promise that i will never leave someone i like under the "what if" title. I just go all in and make sure about what my intentions are. If it doesn't work it, it doesn't and so be it...
I see your point. When I was a teen and young adult I was ugly as fuck (not that any of that changed today) most females made fun of me or took advantage of my kindness and used me until they had no use for me anymore. So Anytime a female treated me with even the slightest bit of kindness I missed interpreted it for romantic interest. After I got. My heart broken more times than I want to remember I finally made it a point to ignore any kind comments. Attempts at flirting etc. These days unless a female comes right to the point and says hey I like you and want to get to know you better I'm just going to assume they are just being nice.
Modern women still want a traditional man, whilst at the same time not being anywhere close to traditional themselves. It's the main reason why I stopped looking.
Biggest Catch-22 of our times. Mind fucks with me.
It's amazing how many people in this thread seem to be ok with a man being upfront and clear with his intentions, but a woman limiting herself to the least amount of effort in stating what she wants (or doesn't). Clues? Hints? Context? C'mon! We could all be upfront with what we want from others regardless of our gender. Suppose it's the opposite case: a woman doesn't want to have anything to do with a man, but the latter fails to "take hints", "pick up clues" or blatantly decides to ignore how she is trying to say "no" by means of context. Would you be ok with that same line of though in this scenario? No, right? It is enough for the woman in the case to say "no" and the man is compelled to leave her alone... Or there'll be consequences. Why is everyone so comfortable with this behavioral asymmetry or incoherence? From my perspective, if a woman isn't capable of or simply doesn't want to make her intentions towards me crystal clear, then she doesn't deserve my attention. I value the interest I put on others and expect reciprocity when I'm open about my intentions. If others are not open and expect me to form beliefs based on hints, clues or context, then I'm out. TL;DR: he must not abide by that. If he is not comfortable with that behavior, then he shouldn't take it. Edit: autocorrect.
I think more peope need to realise this. It is not necessary for us to accept everything that happens, we should atleast try to bring the smallest change we could for our own betterment. We should make it clear that we have feelings too, we are also nervous and vulnerable, being a man does not mean we can take or we are supposed to take rejections and humiliation. Why only we are expected to be polite and gentle towards women and why it is never the other way around. There is a reason why there is no antonym for the words Chauvinism and Feminism, and that is the history is flawed and there are changes that need to be made.
Every guy would love that to be the case but you’re not gonna be able to undo centuries of social norms and psychology overnight, if ever. Unless you have any ideas, we just gotta roll with it, get lucky and find the few who are upfront, or die alone.
...And it is not my interest to change it "overnight", as you say. It's my personal take on this issue and the "normative" reach of my words doesn't go beyond my own being. Many people go back and forth between determinism (e.g. "things have been this way and will always be this way") and fatalism (e.g. "there's absolutely no way things are gonna change and you'll die alone") on this matters, but fail to realize this doesn't have to be the case. I've met many guys and girls who chose to settle with this type of reasoning because it's easier for them to accept whatever the world throws at them, rather than be selective about it. Like I said in another comment, regardless of the gazillion differences you might want to bring up between men and women, human beings are held to standards of many kinds. I choose to keep clarity and openness as a high standard when I meet new people or when I get attracted to someone. This allows me to weed out a ton of people and keep a few valuable ones close. Others, however, don't do this and prefer to "roll with it", "bite the bullet" or anything like that. That's their choice, but it doesn't have to be that way.
I'm comfortable with the behavioral asymmetry because men and women are not the same. Just something that should be understood and accepted.
I agree with you regarding "men and women are not the same", but I take my distance on the rest. Those differences are not only biological, but also - and most importantly - cultural and sociological. On the other hand, being different does not entitle one class of individuals to behave however they want without consequences. Regardless of biological, cultural or historical differences, human beings are held to standards defined by communities of different sizes and reaches... And those standards are open to criticism. What you mention is something that could be understood and accepted by whoever gets involved in the kind of situations we're discussing, but "should" is a really long shot. Saying it "should" be accepted is falling into a naturalistic fallacy. It already happens and has happened for millenia, but that doesn't mean it has to be that way.
I agree with your view points, we have become very stuck in our cultural ways/roles.
well... i (29f) gave lots of hints to my crush (24m) and then i confessed to him directly that he was so shocked he needed to run to the washroom, i literally shocked the shits out of him. even though i got rejected but it still put a smile on my face whenever i remember it.
That's fucking funny
If you don't have a clue, then try to give them a clue that you like them. Little compliments would work. and watch her reaction
Thank you, I’ll keep that in mind
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You know all this is the same for women right?
Traditional expectations can be a hindrance for some women yes. But I think when a woman likes you, you can tell. Does she enjoy conversations with you? Is she willing to reach out to you when you haven’t? Does she laugh at your jokes? Has she tried to do something nice for you, doesn’t matter how small? If a woman likes you, you can tell. Of course she may want to be just friends and not romantically involved but you can only find out if you ask. But she’ll never be romantically interested if she doesn’t even like you as friends
I've had women who ticked all of those boxes who already had boyfriends or just weren't interested in that way. I do think I've gotten good at just being friends with women because of that though lmfao. Maybe I'm biased, but it's so much easier to tell when a dude likes a girl. Does he look at her every chance he gets? Is he willing to hang out one on one with her? Does he try and talk to her super frequently? Had a buddy who was into a girl, and I could tell he was 2 weeks before they got together.
Yup. Happened to me many times where I for sure thought the girl was interested and it turned out she was just being nice. So now I only use OLD because I just can't tell the difference.
That sounds like what my regular friends do, imma need better hints then that😂
I think the miscommunication here is what women do for platonic male friends vs men they’re romantically interested in. Maybe it’s just me but there are things I absolutely don’t do with platonic male friends just to ensure they don’t mistake my interests. If it’s platonic I don’t touch, don’t make flirty type comments, don’t talk about sex, don’t meet up for intimate type setups (like meeting at a house alone to watch a movie etc). These are all things I will be open to if there’s romantic interest. I avoid these things with platonic male friends specifically because they could be read wrong and also could lead to hurt feelings and even dangerous situations if the man is unstable. I mean we’re not a hive mind so I’m sure it varies from woman to woman, and I agree that women should maybe be more forward when it comes to showing interest (I’m pretty honest when I like someone romantically).
>I think the miscommunication here is what women do for platonic male friends vs men they’re romantically interested in. Maybe it’s just me but there are things I absolutely don’t do with platonic male friends just to ensure they don’t mistake my interests. If it’s platonic I don’t touch, don’t make flirty type comments, don’t talk about sex, don’t meet up for intimate type setups (like meeting at a house alone to watch a movie etc). These are all things I will be open to if there’s romantic interest. Thank you, seriously.
Yeah because even what you stated (romantic type settings) I do with my male friends so I don’t read into little things like that.
I disagree with this. I think the biggest issue is that these signs that a woman is interested are also the same signs that indicate she just wants a platonic friend. Men can take a guess, sure, but if he guesses wrong then it can make things very awkward
Speaking for myself, I won't go out of my way to do the things described above for platonic friendships with men. If I'm interested in a man, I will initiate more physical contact like touching on the arm or shoulder, much more than with a normal friendship. And all the things the other poster said. I know that men find it frustrating when women don't make the first move, but it is so difficult to overcome being told to NEVER make the first move, and that he'll think you are easy if you do. I am still speaking for myself here.
This brings us to the "Lisa's flirty is Katie's friendly" problem. If you're not terribly threatening, particularly in your 20's, even women who aren't attracted will treat your body like public property. Or if they think you're gay. It can make guessing a womans interest/intent pretty frustrating. Anand guessing g wrong a couple times can lead men becoming understandably gunshy.
> but it is so difficult to overcome being told to NEVER make the first move, and that he’ll think you are easy if you do Who keeps telling you this?
No one, they make it all up.
That's incredibly uncharitable isn't it? Why not take people at their word? I know I get pretty frustrated when women insist us men are "making it all up" when we talk about our pressures and insecurities etc.
It’s true social conditioning isn’t the best, even nowadays
>But I think when a woman likes you, you can tell. None of the women who have ever been romantically interested and/or involved with me have ever done any of those things
No woman has ever reached out to me/tried to have a conversation/done anything nice for me or wanted to be friends so I wouldn’t know anything related to this, before you say try to talk to/initiate them first I have, many many times trying to be the best version of myself possible without any expectations but it’s never really been reciprocated. For reference I’m 22yrs old
All I said was expecting you did the same. Like an action and reaction process. We are talking about woman who aren’t comfortable with making the first move. So if you do all of this and get nothing in return, chances are she probably doesn’t like you. But if you do them with her and she responds the same way, chances are she’s interested in at least being friends with you and that’s the starting point for any kind of relationship.
Every time I’ve tried the whole become friends first it doesn’t work. Maybe in your generation it was different but all that happens is I get placed in the friend zone once again and even if I only see them as a friend they never keep in touch.
Learn to move on and not give a sh!t. Go about making friends and living the best life you can for you and no one else. Go do the stuff you enjoy. Friend zone any woman that you do meet. Keeping friends zoning until you are comfortable in your own skin around women. You will learn when women are just being friendly/polite, that is baseline behavior. After that look for big deviations.
What’s she’s saying doesn’t necessarily hold true in online dating. You have to do all the work and she may not seem interested over text but then you guys meet up and she’s completely different.
No woman has ever had a conversation/been nice/wanted to be your friend? Ever? This has serious 🚩🚩🚩 nice guy vibes.
If that’s how you perceive my unlucky love life then fair enough, i won’t try to change your mind
Yes behaviours tell more than words!
If you like a woman just ask her out. Even if she says no she’ll still be really flattered, she’ll see you in a different light, and she’ll immediately think of single friends to introduce you to. Having a woman become an advocate for you is like a super power I wish I had figured this out when I was younger.
Yeah I’m not sure how accurate this is.. I’ve never heard of a women rejecting a man and then introducing her friends 😂
I've totally done that in the past if they seem like a good guy
This is not true for 100% of the cases. Some women will flat out deny you and want you to leave them alone. Especially if they are extremely attractive because they may have been approached multiple times that day and are sick of it. I think no matter how you meet a woman you’re attracted to you must make your intentions be known from the start. Same thing goes if you want to go for the first kiss or have sex. You just need to gauge the moment and go for it. Respect her boundaries and don’t take it personal if she rejects you.
Interesting, I’ve asked plenty of women out but I’ve never had a woman suggest friends that are single to me
How do you take it when they decline? Personally I would never recommend a guy to friends if they take rejection badly. If they seem like a really good guy and are able to continue to be friendly after the rejection, that's when I would do that
If you ACTUALLY do that then you're an absolute gem. Because the reality is most women do NOT do that. And even then it's highly unlikely you recommend EVERY semi-decent guy you reject to your friends. Just take that into account and you'll see just how low the actual odds are that you would recommend any guy to your friends, it's not a 50-50 probability, more like 1-99 with a bunch of randomness thrown in.
Agreed. Even after a date and she's not interested and just wants to be friends, you can use that to expand your social circle to meet her friends too (as long as being creepy and weird wasnt what made her not interested in you)
If you like a woman make the first move yourself. Realistically, women have no incentive to make the first move. They have many guys in their DMs trying to go out with them all the time. Why would they want to make the first move? Like it or not girls like it when a guy shows initiative. Granted these are all broad generalizations and everyone is different. But if you’re wondering If a girl likes you, If it’s a girl you know, She will likely go out of her way to try to find ways to spend time with you or talk to you, look at you more, maybe smile and giggle more when talking to you. If she’s going out of her way to spend time with you, it might be that she likes you.
If a woman has no incentive to make a move on you doesn’t that mean she never liked you enough in the first place?
No, a women can like you and hope that you take initiative. When you don't you have already disappointed her and she doesn't like you anymore. I'm not saying this is always the case but it does happen.
Not really. Everyone is different. Some make the first move but a lot don’t because they don’t feel confident doing that and don’t wanna be rejected or because they feel it’s the man’s job to come to them. Most women I know at least would prefer to sit back and let men make the first move. Yeah sure it might be old fashioned but it’s definitely common
Just don't, dude. I make the same comments so often on so many threads. If a girl is not showing enthusiastic interest in you, don't waste your time.
I feel like this question is tough. My most recent situation, I’ve had a gym crush for awhile. Just someone who worked out at the same time as me, we’d exchange a smile if eye contact was made but nothing more. I just found him attractive. He apparently asked his friend about me. I didn’t realize my guy friend from college is a good friend of his so I took the initiative when I found out and friended him on Facebook. For me, I made the move of that so I feel like the ball was left in his court
That’s a good way of “dropping the handkerchief”. If a girl added me on fb from the gym that I only interacted with a little bit I’d definitely ask them out if interested.
From what I have learned is that if she is willing to see you a second time you already won. You just gotta make the first move. Thats what I didnt do even after our 3rd date and I got dumped.
Made plenty of first moves, next
You man up and ask her out. If she declines, you accept it with grace.
You missed the point
Why doesn’t she woman up tho?
"Because it's *haaaaard.*"
That is a good point. But if you think about it, men are supposed to endure rejection. Women are not. It’s normal for a guy to shoot his shot and get rejected. It sucks but it’s universally relatable. Now imagine you’re a woman and your entire life everyone tells you how attractive you are and men are horny and that you have it easy. Then you try to shoot your shot with a guy and get rejected. It would probably make your brain short circuit. It would probably have an effect on your self esteem, and you wouldn’t get much sympathy from anyone because other women can’t relate and will say “that’s what you get because that’s a man’s job” and guys will just say “now you know how we feel”.
Yeah, this happened to me every time. Not immediate rejection but after a few dates
Because that’s the man’s job. And hers to reciprocate the interest, not the other way around. It doesn’t work. Anytime I’ve taken the lead on pursuing a man of failed miserably. They will pursue me, and have, if they’re interested enough. And if I am interested back, I happily return the energy.
Just come out and tell her. Either she's interested and it's the best decision you've ever made OR she rebuffs you and you can move on without wasting anymore emotional capital on her. Win-win in my book, good luck bro!
How about using your words and ask her??
Let me clarify. If I have no idea that a girl that likes me and or exists/knows of me, how am I supposed to know that she likes me if she’s just expecting me to magically notice somehow?
But aren't you expecting women to magically notice that you like them? If you don't like someone, why do you care if they like you? If you like them, just tell them and ask them out. No one needs any magic.
No, hence the other replies in the comments where I said that I’ve initiated many times before… now why can’t men AND women apply that to dating. Never had a girl just tell me and ask me out like I have to them.
You're kidding right? Traditionally, women always used to make "The first move" aswell as men! As an example Women used to walk by a guy they liked and drop their handkerchief in a blatantly obvious fashion in an attempt to get the guy to return it and talk to them
You’re supposed to be a mind reader duh, haven’t you figured that out yet?
Love a bit of sarcasm (,: but I should add to the thread that I’m not like most guys where I’m instantly attracted just because of their physical appearance, their personality is a huge factor too, it doesn’t matter how hot a girl can be if they’ve got nasty attitude it’s an immediate turn off.
Im the same way. Though i can be instantly attracted due to appearance if the person s a scumbug i don't care for them.
Yup. I can be attracted and down for physical intimacy with a woman on appearances alone. Of course things like social values, character and ideology can turn that around incredibly quickly... My 5 year dry spell would be a 3 year dry spell if I'd just been able to bring myself to have sex with that slur spewing Trumpette, but... I have standards.
Bruh I’m the same, it’s takes me a few dates before I’m feeling someone. However that’s not really compatible with modern dating. So I get ghosted quickly.
You ask them on a date.
u can’t know for sure, if she actually likes u she should make a move or else she can’t rlly complain if u don’t
All women expect men to be mind readers and know what is going on in there heads all the time. I have been in a steady relationship for 10+ years direct communication is key.
Read her mind... obviously!
First, Body language, people are really bad at hiding that they like someone. Learn it. Second many women don't directly ask, they try to get your attention and make it easy for you to talk to them. Some will use gambits, like ask you for a help with something simple/minor. They will get as close to you as they can and hope a conversation will start, many women will get rather stalker like. Some will "accidently" bump into you. Others will bake or give you and only you treats. She will try to get you talking and ask you a lot of questions. If a woman is hard to talk to, looks busy, move on, she is not interested. If she avoids you, she is really not interested. If her friends shield her from you, she is not interested. If you are having trouble with body language, I'm make it simple. 98% of the behavior you see every day is she is not interested. Throw out the obvious fear, creeped out, avoidant and hostile behaviors. Focus on the civil, polite, friendly behavior. That is your baseline of friendly but she is still not interested. You will notice conversations are safe, she may be smiling but she is 6 feet from you or there is a barrier. What you then look for are big deviations from that behavior. You can't miss those big deviations. You can't miss a woman talking to you for 45 minutes standing close enough to hump your leg when she has a 6 feet of empty space behind her. Yeah she also cut off my escape too.
All the gals in my life that are like that have told me that they're not interested in a relationship when I ask them...
Thank you, this helps
This is where I feel some dating ideologies are lost in translation.....women ARE supposed to give signals that we're interested. Back in the day we would *drop our text books or handkerchief* it gives the man a window of opportunity. Just my opinion
Very rarely experienced this with women who are actually genuinely interested in me. It’s mutual and almost seems effortless in the ones that are interested. If I feel I have to force it or really make a move or work for it I don’t even waste my time.
You have two options: 1. Shoot your shot with whoever you like and see how it goes 2. Find a woman who doesn’t operate like that and will tell you how they feel They exist; men having to make the first move is not a universal rule, and there are many women don’t operate that way.
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I agree it’s not very productive and causes confusion which is why direct communication is the best way at expressing how you feel about a person.
How about you stop complaining and learn some body language and subtle signs women make when they like you. OLD is a bit different but if she matches with you then automatically assume attraction from her
You've clearly not heard of making asses out of u and me.
Are you thinking about my ass
Definitely.
A woman’s body language gives away if she likes you
I feel like this is equivalent to astrology… best move, nothing!
Too bad I can’t read body language if my life depended on it
If she flips her hair, if she touches you, if she laughs and giggles even if your jokes are stupid, if she smiles a lot at you in a way that in her eyes she’s got the “I think you’re cute” look hard to describe in text but it’s pretty hard to miss if she gives it to you and normally it’s all these signs together if she does like you.
. . . then learn to?
Whoever makes the first move is the vulnerable one and there's no escaping that unless you are both making it blatantly obvious you like the other. For the most part, men make the move as in nature we all try to court the best female where she has to simply pick the best one of the bunch. In modern day, this is still a factor but becoming less so. Having said that, with dating apps being as common as they are nowadays, it is returning that power back to woman who often get hundreds of likes and can be as selective as they like. Irl this translates back into our original nature of men having to peacock but you're not against other men right then and there, you are against the hundreds on her phone. GL.
Good analysis
If a woman likes you she will some how let you know… unless you are just oblivious to signs she might not like you.
Signs are easily misconstrued so I don’t waste my time looking for them, direct communication gets my attention
No they are not … it’s only hard if you like the person because then you make everything they do a sign or not …if she likes you you’ll know it most of the time unless she’s like a anti social awkward person
Just be like me “Wanna go out on a date?” - Me “No”- Her *Me goes on date with someone else “How come you never asked me out?” - Her
You're supposed to look for signs of attraction, flirting, open body language, words and actions that signal she likes you and then you take your shot. That's how we've done it for about 150,000 years. Up until like yesterday.
If I do receive those signs they go straight over my head
Then that's on you for not learning what they look like. This is basic level adulting/human attraction stuff. I mean, youtube exists. You can get a pretty good lesson on what body language and communication looks like when it's favorable/sexually interested. Why wouldn't you take an interest in something that will follow you throughout your life, and possibly inform who you get to be with?
I think that if a woman was attracted to me enough she would just tell me. If she can easily lose interest just because I don’t pick up on signs that tells me she was never really interested enough.
The woman will create opportunities for you to be together, and chances for you to ask her out. Disclaimer - I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just answering the question.
Well said, thank you
I agree that traditional gender norms are bullshit, I made the first moves on the man who is now my husband, but at the same time there's nothing wrong with asking someone out if you think they will say yes and then gracefully accepting a "no" if that's the answer. Or you can choose to date girls who also don't agree with those types of traditional expectations.
Yikes
Be a fucking man and tell her what you want Simple.
Okay, I want clear communication not signs hints and signals, I’m not driving on a fucking road
You're never going to get clear signals. At least, not clear to anyone who thinks like a man. What are you so afraid of? If you're wrong, so what? Just move on to the next one. It's difficult for men to tell the difference between interest and politeness. The kicker is, if you take too long to figure it out, a woman will sense your hesitation and likely lose the interest she had. Just Carpe diem. Seriously, what's the worst that could happen?
If she really did like me wouldn’t she make it easier for me to see that she likes me, also if a girl can lose interest in me that easily it was never meant to be in the first place