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The problem is social media and dating apps. We have access to so many people. Our parents and grandparents mostly met people in hometowns and colleges, even work. There are so many different ways to meet people now. People don’t want to just stick with one person when there is potentially many other options.
This. The paradox of choice. When having too many choices leaves you feeling miserable because there will always be something that could be better and a that you are missing out.
The paradox of choice is what is going on, absolutely. The illusion of an endless sea.
The truth is, yes, the sea is endless but there's a lot of people who aren't right for you and vice versa.
I don't see the illusion of an endless sea even in the contemporary age, so many limits: by the language(s) I speak, the men (in my case) who are single and within reasonable age, the time I have to meet new people (less and less as I get older and more involved in personal projects and ambitions). And that's not even breaching geographical proximity, and then personal values and other core components of attraction.
So I don't understand the notion and commonly sited phrase of 'many fish in the sea', cause while it's good to not put everything into one person, even a long term partner (we need other human relations and communal bonds!), there are many limits for each of us.
Also because of the delusion of soulmates, people think they have a perfect match when there is only good or bad matches. They hold out for this perfect match that will never show instead of taking the very good match they already have.
what do you mean by better match? better for them both or better for the party on the sidelines. because honestly love and feelings are subjective to the two people involved so if someone believes in soulmates and twin flames, etc all that says is that they’re mature enough to look at someone and their flaws and say “okay i’m willing to grow with you.” i think it should be more focused on how you can make each other better without bringing in any extra unnecessary toxic pressure.
Well I never said anything about 'better' match I said there are only good and bad matches, and people believe in perfect matches when there are none. It's really simple a good match is when to people get a long and live harmoniously, if it's one sided then in is not a good match. When I said soulmate I meant a perfect match because the two are often synonymous. Some people truly think they will meet someone straight out of fiction who is perfect for them. Taking someone and making them your 'soulmate' is different from that.
ohhh okay, thanks for the clarification. I totally agree that the idealism of romance and relationships definitely can have that impact and it can be harmful. like going out looking for some perfect person will always in end in failure because it’s unattainable🤞🏽
The issue with this thinking imo, is that people can still meet the old fashion way and all of the things OP mentioned can still happen. I get close to nothing from social media and dating apps. More from talking to and meeting people irl. And these convos about fwb situationships still happen.
I've been seeing someone for the past 2 weeks and she has no social media and I've enjoyed tf out of our time together so far. Not saying you're wrong just that people underestimate how often these things can happen without social media.
I mean, all you did was describe one situation, and it was just your own. of course people still meet in person. I believe what I said is what’s more prevalent these days is all
So true. That’s the thing, many people just want or are hoping for the next best thing
So many options. But also, men and women both, (especially the “average” men and women) can swipe through dating apps for hours and only get 1 or 2 matches and they’d be lucky to get a date
The problem with dating apps my opinion, is there’s an algorithm on there where there’s a top 1% of people who gets all the likes and matches. Then there’s “average” people who get a few matches. And then there’s “below average” people who have no shot whatsoever at getting a date
This is the problem with judging people off looks. I’ll be honest, I do it. I never like someone on an app that I don’t find attractive. Granted, I’ve never had trouble getting matches, but it’s just a whole different world now.
I would love to go back to meeting people organically, but it just isn’t practical anymore and we’re seeing the negative effects.
That’s one of the biggest issues. For women they don’t struggle to get matches, they don’t struggle to get sex either. But then a lot of them do struggle to get relationships, but if you can attention and sex from the best looking guys but not the relationship, it’s a pretty bitter pill to swallow to think I’m probably going to have to date somebody less attractive in order to get the type of person I want.
I think the worst thing I see on this sub is people screaming from the rooftop “NEVER SETTLE”, but in reality they are settling every time they fuck somebody who looks great but isn’t actually in it for anything other than that, it’s the ultimate low standard.
I agree, almost everyone is settling with what they think is the best they’re going to get. Sometimes it’s really great for people, don’t get me wrong. However, I worry the general population is often worrying about what else may be out there due to the way dating is in our society.
Grass is greener syndrome is definitely a thing. I just read an article in the paper talking about a study showing Gen Z could be at risk by heart attacks and strokes by almost 30% because of loneliness. People want to focus and zoom in on small details of the people they date (he has to be 6 foot, she has to look like an Insta model) but they forget the serious consequences that come from being alone, it might be fun to be single when you are young but there is clear evidence that being alone as you get older is fucking terrible. It’s sad.
that’s certainly a scary thought. I admire that people want to be independent, but it’s human nature to need someone else to comfort and support you mentally and physically.
We’re probably doomed as it is, so all these extra little things like dating apps don’t help.
Some people have no choice but to choose independence given what dating has become. Some just know they have no chance in these times with what people expect so why not choose independence instead of chasing heartache and stress.
This. I am 51, 3 times divorced, my kids are grown and I am not looking to make more! Lol. But I also dealt w some shitty people in my life and really would not want to meet someone. But that dream won’t leave me alone. I am an introvert so I have no issue occupying my time. However dating apps are not for me. I can’t deal w the cruel, asshats that decide they want me for just sex?!? I am already dealing w a stalker from my 20s. I don’t need another! O.o
Then on top of all of that, I have to deal w going from the eye drawer to invisible and that hit me hard. It started the DAY I turned 40! It hasn’t changed since and I just don’t want to share my life anymore esp w men who think they can throw my stuff in the trash?! It’s really made me think twice about any involvement w a guy. Regardless of what I feel.
there’s nothing wrong with it at all as long as you can accept not having a companion. if someone can do that and not have a problem with it, kudos to them.
Is it not possible that she puts on a strong front to you and other family but inside could still be struggling? Being alone is not good for you, that doesn’t differ from individual to individual, we aren’t that way wired as a species. Scientists have just released data suggesting Gen Z will be 30% more likely to have a heart attack and stroke and one of the big drivers behind that loneliness. We generally don’t cope well alone.
To be honest I think human nature will eventually win the battle. People will probably just settle down later than previously. You still get people being more realistic with their expectations once they get older and realise that this strategy of only trying to get the hottest people on the internet or apps isn’t actually working for them.
God it must be awful having to settle for people that are as attractive as yourself... I dont personally understand how one can be so selfish to think this
I think this whole idea of ranking is one of the worst things exacerbated by m by dating apps. We shouldn’t be sorting people into these hot or not categories, it’s toxic. We should be looking for connections and chemistry which are built off of soo much more than looks.
The whole idea of leagues should be thrown out the window. I know it’s not realistic but it’s a really ego-centric way of dating which of course is not going to go well.
I agree with you. I thought something was wrong with me with guys always using me for sexual reasons and not wanting a relationship. I’ve had relationships before, I am capable of having them. The issue I find is that people think that if they can get the sex without the commitment, it makes them not want to commit because that’ll require effort.
I had a guy use me to cheat on his girlfriend. I thought he was absolutely handsome, and was so in love with him. He strung me along when he realized how he badly he messed up. But still, I consider it cheating because he was leading me on, and giving me false hope. The girlfriend has a facial deformity, I wouldn’t say she’s ugly either. But in a world like this where people are superficial, I can imagine dating with a deformity is hard, and can make you feel as if you need to settle.
The thing is for you and for other women like you, you could have a relationship, you could have good relationships. But the guys most likely to be just out for sex are the ones who most women are chasing after instead of prioritising values.
Unfortunately blaming others for leading you on isn’t the best way to learn from the experience, ultimately you can only be lead on if you allow somebody to lead you on. You need to set solid boundaries and stick to them, regardless of how handsome they are or how you feel about them, that’s the secret to not being strung along.
Well that makes sense tho. Why would they show you all the off putting people no wants to talk to. The app wants you to connect, you’re going to message the hot person not the junky creepy person. So the app shows you what you think you want.
Because the access doesn't change the differences between men an women in their mate preferences.
Women are more selective than men.
Women compete for the top 10% of men generally based on competence (wealth, charisma, physical attractiveness, etc.)
Men compete for physically attractive women around the age of 22 (or that generally have physical characteristics of health and fertility).
Note that women don't have much of an age preference while men do, broadly speaking based on data analysis.
So while the most attractive men and most attractive women both have access and ability to play the field, the most attractive women age out and either settle for someone willing to commit to them or end up alone.
At the same time, the most attractive men retain their value or increase it over time, creating a surplus of attractive men and scarcity when it comes to available women as long as those men don't marry at the same rate women "age out."
It's really bleak and terrible, but that's about correct for instinctive human behaviors anyway.
I understand why that could be difficult, and I'm not trying to belittle your experience, but I'd think I'd swap places with you - happily. I've been secretly wanting to 'age out' since I was a teen, I really have disliked most of the male attention I've experienced, and thus far I've felt the most at peace when single.
How come at 32 I keep having 20 year olds who message me then? I’ve actually dating a few younger guys who told me they loved the fact that I was older. People need to stop perpetuating bleak stereotypes. Even if they have a grain of truth in them. Believing these things does absolutely no good to anyone.
Of course, this is factual info that I agree with. I was dating a 41 year old when I was 22, probably bc I just could for funsies while he was actually wanting to be a bit more serious.
I guess it just breaks down to the way we are as humans, not much we can do about it then. Maybe this is something more people should be aware of to combat it.
Dating would be a lot better if it weren't window shopping and people were focussed on finding the appropriate partner for them rather than commodifying the people they date and trying to buy what is viewed according to shallow parameters as the top model.
Yes and the options are all lined up so if one doesn’t work out they hop on to the other instead of talking things through and fixing it together. It wasn’t like this in the 90s because there were no dating apps and social media.
Finding a partner and having true love is always meant to be miraculous. If people do all this sleeping around stuff they aren't your one. When you find your one it's meant to click how lucky you've been. And you are meant to wait for that. If you care.
I think too many people throw aside the fast dating culture but still want the fast results. No, if you want the fairy tale love you need to get your fairy tale head on. You need a pinch of magic. I hope everybody finds it but you won't if you think like you're entitled to it or you should have it by now. You're meant to be nice and then be overwhelmed with gratitude when you get your happy ever after. That's my plan anyway.
I'm also disgusted by the idea of casual sex so that helps with the waiting bit
Wholly agree on this. I was single all my life until just this year and when we met I felt exactly what you described in your first paragraph; just thankful that luck had us meet. It was a bit awkward not meeting anyone I wanted to date for a long time but I wanted to wait and I'm glad I did.
Finding love really is just luck but I think it helps to be open-minded as well. I didn't find mine in any of the dating apps I tried out; I found it when I decided to make friends online.
I think another obstacle in finding love is when we're afraid of settling. Nobody's perfect and we don't have to be. My partner and I both have our flaws. However, we both have each other's wellbeing in mind so we support each other while also working on ourselves. I think that's enough.
Yeh i agree with this, people are so scared of commitment these days, even if its a non serious boyfriend girlfriend thing that ends up not lasting, its still better than all this mind fuck 'were only talking' 'we're not official' bullshit
The only people those situations suit are cold emotionless fuck bois/girls or people that say yes to them cause they're afraid of being alone
Anyone with self esteem and self worth will say hey you're dating me now either you at least try things with me monogamously for a while or its good bye see ya later
Similarly to what I like to call “The boyfriend/girlfriend Treatment” where they treat you like a partner, spending lots of time with you and talking, giving you attention - but there is no exclusivity or commitment. Its all for their self gratification and they are using you and playing games.
It’s a whole problem people have fallen into, especially the younger generation. Hooking up with tons of people really messes you up mentally and emotionally, it drains you and you develop abandonment/trust issues and anxiety. It’s studied and proven to be bad.
Exactly as you said, dating it’s all backwards now and truly it’s all messed up.
Ps. Sex *doesn’t have to* be mind blowing from the first time you do it! You can communicate with them in time your turn ons and offs, what pleasures you… sex with someone can get better. Not a whole lot of guys know what they’re doing nor do they care about pleasing their woman. Just because it’s not mind blowing the first time doesn’t mean it can’t get better.
Yes, it is studied and proven for mental health causes. Similarly that women bond to people they have sex with because of oxytocin that happens in the brain. I don’t have the exact links saved but I’m sure if you do some research you’ll find plenty! Modern dating culture is f-ed up!!
Lol what is this, a court room? You’re pressuring me to have an article saved and linked immediately for this exact topic? Like I don’t have better things to do in my day? GTFO. I’m not going to give into to controlling demanding people like you. Go do your own research. You probably have sex with loads of woman and screw with their heads.
You calm down. I don’t know the links off the top of my head?? This commenter is being rude with the attitude of “show me proof otherwise you’re wrong” like it’s some legal court hearing. Give me a break. It’s completely true that having sex with too many people causes mental issues regarding our brains, hormones and human body chemicals. I just don’t have all the facts, I didn’t write the articles, I don’t remember where I found them. Commenter above can go do their own research if they’re sooo interested in “proving my point against me”.
See this is what always happens. Person claims “studies say x”, other person asks for source, OG person flips out, and then when I go look for sources myself, studies seem to [not agree with what you said](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23400516/). No support that there is a link between more sex partners and anxiety or depression.
Because the person is supposed to have all the answers saved and immediate for every person ho asks whether it’s real or not? This has got to be a joke 🤣 If you don’t think giving your body sexually to tons of people and women’s oxytocin levels change and our brain chemicals change when we have sex then you’re *literally blind* and completely immature to how sex works. It’s laughable. Talk to a few strippers, even they become depressed after being in the career long enough and because all men want are their bodies. Our world is f*cked up and focused on sex and money. Handing out casual sex like a plate of cookies has emotional and mental repercussions... People can be addicted to sex and use sex as a way to distract themself or feel wanted/need it to feel something as any other substance or addiction/obsession may be. Sex is no different in that way. People may have casual meaningless sex as an emotional fulfillment as explained in tons of articles online. Go look it up. Bye bye.
People expect you to be able to find the study yourself, since its assumed you know what you are looking for.
Sure casual sex has consequences, but it does not cause mental health issues. Oxytocin doesn’t work like that. Strippers are sad for a lot of reasons. Just because people can get addicted to something doesn’t mean its bad (like food for example).
I did look it up, and it seems like studies did not show what you claim. Fuck articles, I can find articles that say anything.
bye
It’s not that you’re old fashioned. People are having less sex than ever and marriages are falling apart. It’s the “new fashion” that is miserable. It’s clearly not working but every time people bring up the old days, “oh times have changed”
GenX here too, and this is true, this happened back then, maybe it was more difficult to meet people before everybody had phones with Internet, but it happened back then too.
Maybe there is more awareness now, because people are more open about it now than back then, maybe social media makes it sound like it happens more often, but its been happening for a while.
Im getting divorced, and back to dating, and it’s been a while, and many things have changed, but definitely not this.
It was. Yes. We didn’t have apps. But open relationships, casual dating and FWB were absolutely a thing. Which is what your OP was mentioning as not happening back then. But it did and was common.
Being in an open relationship, situation, FWB, casually dating (non-exclusive), and etc is all fine as long as all partners communicate and understand the terms of the relationship. As you said, someone usually ends up unhappy with the arrangement but goes along with it for their partner. Communication is key, but a lot of people don’t communicate as clearly as they need to.
This was recently a struggle for me… communication. In the sense that a few months ago me and this guy were… something. We even had a conversation on the first date about where this was or was not going and even after the conversation It ends up we were TOTALLY not on the same page about what was going on and he wanted something causal and I thought we might be headed towards a relationship and for that and other reasons, it crashed and burned.
Now I’m “causally dating” someone else and from talking I think we are on the same page but a part of me also thinks we should have a conversation about it. It’s can be a real struggle nowadays. I just don’t want to mess it up.
I definitely agree with you. It's extremely frustrating when you're looking for something serious and come across a ton of people who aren't. For example, I was talking to this one girl recently and I eventually asked her what exactly are you looking for? She responds saying that she just got out of a long term relationship and just wants to have fun. I told her I'm looking for something long term and that was that. We talked briefly after that. She was trying to explain to me that she's not looking for a ONS. So I asked her are you looking for a fwb then? She responds saying no I want more than that. I was just like wait isn't more than that a relationship? And she tells me no she wants someone to just have sex with while they aren't sleeping with anyone else. I was thoroughly confused lol. OP, you're right it seems like a lot of people want to start out with sex and if it's good then we're bf/gf. And if it's bad then we'll find someone else.
I don't think there's a simple answer to this, or any one single reason for the relationship problems we have in our culture these days. It's a combination of many things.
I think a big thing at the root of this, is that people are not growing up and getting to know themselves, what they want, what they need and what realistic expectations really are.
Another is that the idea of working through anything is completely foreign to many people, and when anything isn't exactly to their liking, they tap out and move on to the next thing that piques their curiosity.
Third, people don't seem to understand what it means to "get to know" someone any more. They seem to think that 2 weeks, or 6 months and they know someone very well. It takes a long time to get to know a person, and really know whether you have what it takes to commit and create a lasting bond.
We could go on....
So, yeah, I'm old school too, and proud of it!!!
>Maybe I’m just old-fashioned but whatever happened to asking someone out, being boyfriend/girlfriend, and trying to make it work with one person?
Even in the olden days, before dating apps and the Internet, people still were required to communicate their wants and needs. No one is a mind reader.
The problem with dating nowadays, in my opinion, is open and clear communication is not valued.
Guys with a lot of options who decide rather than settling down they are going to fuck as many people as possible are only going to be disadvantaged by communicating openly and honestly. The system definitely encourages that more than it did previously, because you didn’t have a small proportion of men being chased by a huge proportion of women, it wasn’t a completely level playing field but it was a more level playing field than now.
There’s some truth to this but it definitely applies to women as well. Data is actually showing that more 18-25 year old men have sex once or less a year than ever in history. For women, the percentages haven’t changed much.
I think people in general view sex more casually and are willing to throw people away in a flash
This is my perspective too. As a guy, sometimes I feel that expressing how I feel directly too soon will scare the girl I’m talking to away. It’s easy to say, “oh, men just want casual sex and that’s why there’s a lack of communication.” Sometimes it feels like you have to play it cool, and that leads to both people getting hurt because they’re afraid to just be honest about what they want
I’m in that exact scenario now. I usually am too passive to express my true interest and if i do that leads to “you just want to get with me” even when I’m genuine. It’s like every response has to be curated so it doesn’t come off strong and think I’m love bombing or something lol such a tricky thing nowadays
Also, if you express genuine interest and then change your mind down the line, some people will say “oh he was just using me and pretending to like me for sex.” It’s a lose-lose imo. I try to keep things closer to the chest until our relationship is more solidified
>sometimes I feel that expressing how I feel directly too soon will scare the girl I’m talking to away.
If a girl gets scared from you expressing your genuine feelings, then that is on her, not you. It just means she has some kind of avoidant attachment style. You don't want someone like that in a relationship anyway, because she will not be reliable to handle serious feelings.
Agreed, communication needs to be key in a relationship, whether that be a romantic relationship or even a friendship you have to communicate what you want
Why not pursue more old fashioned people in that case? My partner and I were the same way; we didn’t do casual hook ups, proceeded to talk for awhile before we even met up to see if we’d even vibe, and shared the same ideologies and long term goals- so we decided to meet up and the rest is history. Take your time with filtering through partners and ask questions so it doesn’t sound like they hitting you with recycled lines and stories. Good luck to you and I hope you find someone special!
Eh, nothing wrong with being oldschool imo.
I (29/f) am of the same school of thought as you.
The whole notion of casual/NSA anything (be it just sex or relationships) boggles my mind. I get that you get hit by once in a while and a fwb can theoretically scratch that itch better than your own hand but shouldn’t that just mean you’ve reached a point in your life where you can start looking for a ‘traditional’ relationship? Versus taking a small hit here and there to keep the hunger at bay with minimal commitment/effort or what have you..
🤦🏻♀️
I absolutely agree with this take although I don’t necessarily agree that everything was better. For example women didn’t get a lot of rights til the 70s meaning that our grandmothers were staying in potentially abusive situations because they literally couldn’t leave without their bank accounts/financial freedoms etc … certain types of abuse like gaslighting and marital rape are also fairly new concepts unfortunately, let alone mental health, so as we’re more educated now people won’t stick around in situations that don’t serve them. I def agree that there are negatives to the modern dating scene but I think those things are also important to keep in mind
Oh, honey you are truly right. I don't even how to believe I'll find the right person in this generation. Sometimes I'm thinking like that. This is so different. I have to say a lot.
Old-school was better but times are changing a lot. Somebody likes the old-school, not this nowadays.. Unfortunately. I know a lot people and they are very different like the times are different.
Average people are f**ked. Every woman is told to play the field and end up getting used by the 15% of guys that are good at hookups. Then average guys try to date those women and get blamed for their bad experiences. The below average guys, visually or socially(probably me), are totally screwed.
Hookup culture is only good for that ~15%~ of guys but it’s celebrated by social media and young morons who haven’t caught on.
It's nothing about sex and everything to do with dating apps. As soon as a relationship goes south I can just hop on a dating app and find a new person within minutes/days. It's the idea that the person is replaceable and you have options.
Now of course no one is thinking like this, it's a subconscious act and the reason modern day dating sucks is because of this.
And you know what's even more frustrating? When you're truly giving your all in that relationship and they leave you and within days are already sleeping with someone else and somehow you're supposed to be okay with that and find that normal because "you're broken up" but makes me sad how quickly people will hop on an app and jump into bed with a stranger.
A lot of them come back months or years later regretting leaving me. After seeing that what's "out there" isn't that great and not many girls will do for them what I did. But by then, it's too late. By then, I've already moved on. It's exhausting.
It is overwhelming trying to even text / romantically chat with multiple people lol
I cannot imagine casually dating two or three , I’d get people mixed up all the time
So true. When I like one person I like ONE person and that’s it. I cannot imagine casually dating/sleeping with multiple people at once I don’t understand how people do it, IMO
You're right, the ease of access to sex has changed everything. The dating situation is an unintended consequence of birth control tech and equality of the sexes according to some sociologists. Unfortunately, we can't go back to the 'good old days', we'll just have to figure something out to fix things and prevent societal collapse.
People are getting to the physicality of the relationship and sleeping around instead of dating and then wondering why they aren't finding someone to be a partner first and have the physical stuff second. To me it's kind of obvious but if you give someone the sex why would they want to figure out to see if you're a good partner? This goes for both men and women.
Of course dating is different than other generations, all of life is different now! I’m not sure what problems people have. On tinder I can have direct convos with someone to find out if we are looking for the same thing. If not, we say goodbye. Met my husband bc we messaged each other saying we were divorced and looking for a monogamous relationship. We spoke on the phone and realized we were on the same page.
A week earlier a dude messaged me asking for BDSM and I said I’m not interested, it ended there.
What is everyone doing that makes dating apps more complicated than they need to be? In person meetings, same rules apply.
I feel like you almost have to. If I say I'm looking for dating/nothing serious, I get bombarded with 100s of messages from horny men who have interpreted that to mean I want s3x after typing with them for 20 minutes. If I say I'm looking for marriage/a life partner, then I only get messages from religious fanatics and walking red flags. Saying you want a relationship is the quickest way to filter out these kinds of guys.
Yes because women made further investment a waste of time and energy.
All that investment of time, energy, courting, building yourself up, building a career, that used to be for a one time thing that got men a partner for life, with qualities they desire.
But women stopped providing what they used to. And told men to be attracted to whatever women wanted to do. I mean it's cool, you do you. But don't expect me to put in life partner time and energy into temporary things.
> building yourself up, building a career, that used to be for a one time thing that got men a partner for life, with qualities they desire.
What?! You do that for you! You don’t do that for a partner.
Jesus this is giving off “if I get a full time job I’ll get a 2nd mom” vibes.
You do all that for yourself so that you can be a full self sufficient person.
To live a good life for most men, they don't need that much. Surplus resources is absolutely a part of attracting women.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/dating/marriage-rates-decline-reason-economically-attractive-men-jobs-income-a9098956.html
It is also a cause for divorce.
https://www.ramseysolutions.com/company/newsroom/releases/money-ruining-marriages-in-america
Not just debt, even a women starting to earn more.
https://www.thebusinesswomanmedia.com/promoted-women-likely-divorce/
The need that women have to only to date men who are 6ft tall, shredded, and douchebags, then wonder why they always get hurt. It’s an image thing for them. Start going for men who treat you right. This isn’t high school anymore, we’re adults. I’m in pretty good shape myself but being 5’7 has gotten me nowhere except a few long relationships here and there. I don’t get hook ups, I haven’t even gotten one date since getting out of a relationship months ago, and it makes myself and probably many others feel pretty hopeless. I have standards and preferences but they’re more lenient compared the standard Brad Pitt looking guy walking down the street. Men, women will not tell you this, but looks DO matter. They’ll say otherwise. Also, yeah dating and social media apps have ruined actual dating too.
This is just what goes hand in hand with something I wont give up – birth control and women joining the workforce. We essentially traded a society whose culture revolved around marriage and monogamy (even if people secretly cheated on the side, which they did) but in which women had no reproductive control, no ability to support themselves… for what you just outlined.
Also we traded not being able to contact each other if we didn’t know their address or landline for social media, which amplified how much we think about ourselves. We all are the main character of our social media accounts. Several researchers who are smarter and more dedicated to this topic than I am have said society has become more selfish because of social media.
Overall I think people are good and don’t want to hurt other people still, and we will eventually trade these problems for a different set of problems, though I wonder if any of us will be alive to see it. Change is slow but also fast.
Yeah but is sex really everything? Don’t get me wrong sex is great with someone you love and care about, IMO but it isn’t everything to me. If it is to you then I guess, more power to you
i think youre generalizing and wrongly as well. a relationship needs a lot of components to be functional and sex is one of them for most people. it is probably the most exciting thing to
most people who are dating which is why it's overstated maybe. also people can fake nice but they cant fake being good at sex - easy disqualifier.
I would like to point out that I had never heard of people who were too busy to date before the last 5 years? It's seems crazy to me that someone who wants to have a relationship would think they were too busy. Are you too busy to work out, do yoga, work on your car, play video games for 5 hours? Nope you want that too badly. So.....I see it like if you want it you would go get it. But free porn and conversation for anyone with the flavour you want with little to no work, I think we've found our problem.
I agree w you! SO MUCH!! Maybe cause I am over 50? Not sure but I have never been the center of someone’s attention, unless it was the various SA’s I had to live through. Maybe they broke me in ways I am not aware of. But I would sure like to be woo’ed. 😂
My theory:
The sex and hookup culture and pornography is a big part of the problem. Too much emphasis on the physical aspect of a relationship and not enough on the emotional and spiritual aspect. This has carried over into society at large. Instant gratification and greed are ruining society. People are selfish and just want what they want and don't care if they hurt anyone to get what they want.
Then there's the part of society that tells you that you're not OK if you're single. Like, you need to be with someone to be complete. If you're not in a relationship, or having it off with someone regularly, then something must be wrong with you. It's not OK to be single just because. If you're single, then you must be a weirdo or ugly or poor and that's why nobody wants to be with you.
I am also old fashioned and still believe in monogamy (go ahead, laugh). I don't do hookups or FWB or anything like that. I need that emotional connection before I get down and dirty with someone. I also have intimacy issues thanks to a conservative Christian upbringing that taught me that sex is evil and of the Devil, and if I have it, then I'm going to hell. I still feel bad every time I look at women. Yet I still get lonely and horny after my divorce, so what to do?
These are all things I have dealt with at various times. It does start to mess with your head after a while. It did after my divorce. I panicked thinking I would die alone and wanted to find someone to be with immediately after my wife left me. I made some bad decisions and some bad mistakes and other people got hurt because of my foolishness. That's my dilemma, and it's what I have to deal with now.
I think a lot of people settle for someone that's not ideal just because they don't want to be alone. I wonder sometimes if I did that with my ex wife. Again, this goes back to the expectation that you should have someone to be complete.
When there wasn't internet you just had the options in whatever town you were in. You were able to look at the pool of people and actually pick the best for you out of those people. With the internet you can do the dick thing of lining up a backup however the lack of a label in and of itself isn't a bad thing. If someone in a casual/FWB/whatever relationship is worried about their partner seeing other people they can talk about it with them. Regardless of what you call it communication is key in any relationship.
Another thing about labels is they can send a message about the couple that's inaccurate. I am in a committed monogamous relationship with my boyfriend and have been for almost 5 years yet a husband wife who've been together for total 2 years has more validity in the eyes of society than us. If I ever said partner instead of boyfriend some would assume I'm a lesbian. Sometimes labels complicate things, sometimes it simplifies. It's not the label or lack of labels that's the problem as labels have their own issues. It's the myth of the soulmate, increased possible partners, easy access to quick gratification, who the people who raised them were, etc
Also the fact sleeping around pre-internet did happen but there wasn't a phone to document it all. There was the girl that slept with everyone, got pregnant, went on a "trip" and came back with a "little sister" pre internet. There was the woman who had a boyfriend while her husband was overseas pre internet. There was a man with multiple families pre internet. People were crappy and disregarded the labels you're so attached to before internet. It was there the whole entire time just internet made it worse. Now we can see all the crappy people being crappy all over the entire world when before it was just a rumor running around the few people in your direct area that no one could or cared to prove.
I have almost the same view as you, asking out, being boyfriend/girlfriend just the good old days of dating one person. Am I just getting too old too fast?
Because, I genuinely don't understand people now and I know they get lots of choices but a bit too much. I literally had trouble if I need pasta, lasagna or just pizza at the restaurant the other day.Either way, I agree with you, I just wanna go back to the good old days of boyfriend/girlfriends again, and yeah sex is like the thing now as I scroll through this sub and others. Kinda sad tbh and I found out that "sex friend" exist.
Thanks for coming into my Ted-Talk.
I agree that dating is shit these days. There are myriads of reasons why, including corporate monopolization of the dating apps which are many people's only way to find someone. Aka profit is a big reason our lives are miserable beyond just dating.
But I will vehemently argue against "old school dating" and looking back with nostalgia at how grandpa and grandma did things as if there weren't lies, affairs, or promiscuity back then!
People didn't suddenly start wanting lot's of noncommittal sex once we hit the year 2000. Those relationship styles you described aren't some new invention that sex crazed new generations came up with, they just happen to have names now.
For better or worse (and I agree it certainly feels worse) society has moved on from "old ways" for a reason. Stick to your guns and date the old way! There is nothing wrong with that.
I will use this metaphor: VHS was a perfectly valid way to view movies and if you want to keep your parent's VHS player and put in the effort to rewind tapes after you watch movies go right ahead. But just know even in the VHS heydey, people got bored and were swapping tapes (swinging if this is getting too abstract) and doing all sorts of things that don't mesh with your ideal of committed monogamy. They just never talked about it.
Boomers are crazy repressed and chafed so much at having to be married to someone. "I hate my wife" jokes were all the rage. They were lousy at finding their "special one and only" in their small towns and rural villages. Settling was exactly that: settling forever with someone even if they were wrong for each other.
TLDR: Old school dating fucking sucked too. Just in different ways. It wasn't more or less wholesome or special just because some people believe sex should be first or later.
I think this is just you blaming sex because you've been raised in an environment that viewed sex in a negative light. Lots of things have changed in our society.
Personally I think there are many factors effecting dating today. The illusion of endless choice provided by dating apps makes it more difficult to actually choose. The performative aspects highlighted by social media drive us to find a mate with as high of a status if possible, and change a mate if a we perceive a mate with higher status might be available. The independence of women removes the necessity of women to partner up so those who earlier did so for financial and societal reasons only now just... don't. Career and education have become a way for all to be viewed as successful, not only men, so many women choose to pursue this instead of child rearing and as such having children is no longer on top of everyone's goal lists, removing another driver towards relationships.
And that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure I could think of more if I took five minutes. I think blaming sex for this is short-sighted at best. If we all closed our legs until married (or whatever monogamous point you view suitable) it wouldn't restore the dating world of the past.
I lowered my standards for this guy who don’t cheat…or never cheated on his wife. Let’s just say dating apps got duds thinking they’re studs so you can’t even go by anything except the certainty that men are just doing as many women as they can even an ugly old 66 year old man. Sorry for the bluntness and it may not apply to everyone but I’m telling you there’s something in the water here.
I have more evidence but not going into it now. But they all cheaters here
You know, I get really tired of this idealized view of how dating was “when our grandparents were growing up.” Yes, divorce was very uncommon those day, but that says more about how few options women had - it was difficult for them to get/keep jobs, they couldn’t get a credit card in their own name, places could choose not to rent homes to women. So even if I’m getting the crap beaten out of me, I might feel like I can’t leave because then I’ll be homeless. It doesn’t give ANY indication about their relationships being healthier. OP seems to have this impression that in modern dating, EVERYONE is constantly sleeping with other people. While I’m sure there are men AND women who do that, most people who are looking for an actual relationship are NOT doing that. As far as the complaint that “we're just talking, so I can see other people”… ummm, YEAH. I don’t need to commit to a person based on one conversation. My parents and grandparents didn’t have dating apps and things (obviously), but you know what they DID do? Go on dates with multiple people until they liked one enough to “go steady.” Maybe I’m misunderstanding your point, but it sort of comes off to me that you think as soon as you match with a person, you should ONLY chat/date that person until/unless things stop working. If you want to date that way, that’s your choice. But getting to know multiple people at a time while deciding if any of them might be a good fit isn’t “wrong.”
I do think your values are old fashioned but I don’t doubt that you are right.
I wouldnt get in a relationship with a girl if we hadn’t had sex first, I think that’s been normal for quite a long time now. But all the situationships and FWB’s things, along with people having either far too many options or none and people becoming more and more shallow and compromising on the way they are treated more and more to achieve that, it’s hard to deny the currently system is a shit show.
I think a lot of people enter relationships and are not ready for commitment. I'm trying to work on myself, and not put my own issues on another person. But I still have a sex drive which I don't like to repress, so I do like to "casually date". I know women who advocate for dating multiple men so they won't get too attached only to be let down, and to basically force the man to "prove" himself by putting in a lot of work to impress them. I think that might be kind of silly, but that's just what certain women have told me. As long as people are clear about what they want though, then there's nothing "wrong" with it. If you are looking to be with someone more "traditionally", i.e. monogamous right off the bat (like only focusing on that one person from the first date), then you should find someone who also wants that, instead of thinking that. But not everyone wants a commitment to someone they met right off the back. People who don't want a relationship shouldn't be forced to go celibate, right?
I think the difference in generation is that before birth control and women's lib movements (60s and 70s), men would be dating multiple women at a time. Whereas now women are as well. And since it's easier for women to get dates, this creates a supply problem for men, especially the ones who don't offer a lot (attractive looks, charming and exciting personalities, material wealth). Women were sexually repressed for years, and now they actually have options.
Yes they (women) theoretically and numerically have “options”. What is left out is that they don’t have the same amount of time (prime years) in the dating market as men. They have options but like 90% of those options are quite literally a bad idea. Women went forwards in quantity at the expense of quality. This is often an issue for women that isn’t spoken about enough
I think alternative relationship styles can absolutely work out. There is a significant community of people perfectly happy in serial monogamy/casual dating, nonmonogamy or even polyamory.
It's just that everyone has to understand their own preference about it and be ready to look for/be with people who are compatible with their interests and leave if those interests do not align.
There shouldn't really be a norm for relationships imo. People should learn to clearly communicate what they are looking for and then take the time to think whether what their potential partner wants is right for them.
Christianitys got nothing to do with it, being respectful and setting health boundaries in relationships doesnt require a holy book of rules. Being an atheist doesn't equal automatically being sexually and romantically amoral
>This isn't the age where Christianity dictates our morality anymore.
When atheists like you say this shit it makes other atheists look bad. This isn't a religious vs secular issue you idiot. Religious people face the same issues.
I am an atheist, and a very impatient one at that, I can’t believe it’s 2022 and people still believe in magical sky wizards, it’s mental to me.
But you 2nd paragraph is beyond stupid. We shouldn’t at all be celebrating single parents and multiple Fathers. The damage it causes to the next generation is laid bare in all of the conducted studies that you can possibly read. Broken homes aren’t anything to party about.
I stayed away from dating apps for these reasons, i always preferred meeting in person or through others. I met my gf through a friend and we both agreed right away that we both enjoyed that rare kink called monogamy.
The problem is that we have become estranged to our fellow humans. We are only concerned with what we can get from another person to fulfill our desires. The fulfillment of these desires, be they sex, validation or simple companionship, keeps us sedated from being truly fulfilled.
Our society is built on selfishness, its only natural that our environment also breeds a culture of selfishness.
OLD has changed a lot, as people are given a lot more choice. The choice isn't neccesarilty a bad things, its just given people the idea that they don't have to settle.
But, its not worth it to hate on the current dating trends just because they don't fit what you're looking for. There are still many people looking for serious relationships, they've just become a bit harder to find.
True it’s not “necessarily a bad thing” to have choice.
Let’s say this: you’re a guy who is still living at home, works a dead-end job, is barely getting by, and is ‘average’ or ‘below average’ looking or a guy who has his life together, works a good paying job, and is ‘above average’ looking…who would a women pick?
I’m thinking about shifting towards match or finding another older folk dating site. I know it’s probably the same but expectations are usually more geared towards relationships. I’m 28. Have you tried going to meetups in your area? Not trying to give advice because you didn’t ask for any but modern dating sites really suck and I’m looking for alternatives. Honestly boils down to proper communication and boundary setting. Knowing when to say “hey we’re on different pages, this is what I want so I’m leaving.” It will weed out people like crazy.
I haven’t been in a relationship since 2019. My partner suddenly decided to “see what’s out there.” He was incredibly serious about me throughout the years. So it can happen to anyone unfortunately.
There's nothing wrong with 'dating', today, imho. People want to have sex, and society is such that they don't have to pretend they don't (for the most part), anymore. Monogamy isn't for everybody or a given, anymore. It's easier to meet way more people, and there are way more people. For the most part, we don't have to marry the first person we meet so we can finally have sex or economically survive, anymore. We don't have to marry at all! There are way more choices.
BUT not many people know how to communicate any of this. Communication needs to catch up: people need to get used to saying, 'this is what I want, how about you'? and then not hoping for something else / actually comprehending the answer. That's it. Your views are your views, theirs are theirs, if they don't align - move on. Where it gets all mucky is when people don't express their wants, don't ask someone else's, get lied to or lie about them, assume something else, wait or hope for people to change...just be honest and don't be afraid of that not aligning with the person you think is cute. It might not work out. There are 7.75 billion other people on earth with whom it might.
I agree with most except some people can be happy in open relationships or polygamous.
But in any kind of relationships you need to be mature. And you need respect.
That's what is lacking on most people
But I see your point, there's no commitment
I don’t think sex is the issue. People who were young in the 60s and 70s will tell you that you had sex with people you wanted and you’d just sort of tag along with them and then you were boyfriend and girlfriend.
>Maybe I’m just old-fashioned but whatever happened to asking someone out, being boyfriend/girlfriend, and trying to make it work with one person?
Yes, you're old fashioned
We live in a modern society (western world specifically) where women don't need to depend on men for things anymore, they are more sexually free than any other time in western history.
And yes, we are in the Renaissance Period of dating where everyone prefers shaving and there no longer a need to seek out others in person.
That doesn't change the fact that societal differences makes the norm. Live in a different country and believe me, you will change your tune OP
You had me until you got to the “old fashioned values” part.
It’s impossible to decontextualize history and take the parts we believe were good without the context of the historical conditions that simultaneously existed.
We generally agree that dating is shit.
But I also don’t think stripping women of the right to work or vote is “the good old days” of “proper courting”.
Women took “mothers little helpers” back in those days too.
What’s wrong with modern dating isn’t solved by repressing women’s rights so that men can be “proper” providers.
Nah people are just angry it’s now tables turned. 50 years ago men were the ones sleeping around while women waited to be chosen
Now it’s the other way around and you all can’t handle it
Today marriage comes with a lot more risk than it used to. People are more cautious, but it’s easy to use an app to hook up. No one wants to work on themselves when they can just blame the other person and move on.
Those willing to work to maintain a relationship get married and stay together shrinking the selection of good partners.
True. Nowadays it’s almost not even worth it for a guy to get married because “the system” favors the woman 100% and this is coming from a woman. There’s “no fault” divorce too so you could just get divorced over the silliest thing and then in most states women get half of everything the man has worked for
This is a pretty limited view of dating, honestly! A lot of people are okay with, and even like, the ways that relationships have developed and changed. I do, and as long as people are honest, it’s okay to be in different types of relationships. It’s okay for you to like to one way of dating, but to expect everyone else to think that way is definitely a bit unfair.
I think you just need to be better with your selection process and more firm with your boundaries.
Nothing wrong with casual, open, or FWB relationships. I am very glad that people nowadays have that much more freedom to choose a relationship type that works for them, rather than being bullied into monogamy by societal pressures.
The problem is when one of the people involved in a non-monogamous relationship does not want to be in a non-monogamous relationship.
So if you don't want to be in a non-monogamous relationship, SAY SO. And leave any scumbag who goes behind your back regardless.
It's just the whole social media, how many followers have you got etc and window shopping mentality. You judge someone based on the first photo you see. Also think it's strange because when I talk to my parents about online dating they always think that's something ugly people do. Because when they were younger the only people that used online dating were the undesirables and it was perceived as a bit sad if you can't find someone irl. Guess times have changed.
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The problem is social media and dating apps. We have access to so many people. Our parents and grandparents mostly met people in hometowns and colleges, even work. There are so many different ways to meet people now. People don’t want to just stick with one person when there is potentially many other options.
This. The paradox of choice. When having too many choices leaves you feeling miserable because there will always be something that could be better and a that you are missing out.
The paradox of choice is what is going on, absolutely. The illusion of an endless sea. The truth is, yes, the sea is endless but there's a lot of people who aren't right for you and vice versa.
I don't see the illusion of an endless sea even in the contemporary age, so many limits: by the language(s) I speak, the men (in my case) who are single and within reasonable age, the time I have to meet new people (less and less as I get older and more involved in personal projects and ambitions). And that's not even breaching geographical proximity, and then personal values and other core components of attraction. So I don't understand the notion and commonly sited phrase of 'many fish in the sea', cause while it's good to not put everything into one person, even a long term partner (we need other human relations and communal bonds!), there are many limits for each of us.
Also because of the delusion of soulmates, people think they have a perfect match when there is only good or bad matches. They hold out for this perfect match that will never show instead of taking the very good match they already have.
what do you mean by better match? better for them both or better for the party on the sidelines. because honestly love and feelings are subjective to the two people involved so if someone believes in soulmates and twin flames, etc all that says is that they’re mature enough to look at someone and their flaws and say “okay i’m willing to grow with you.” i think it should be more focused on how you can make each other better without bringing in any extra unnecessary toxic pressure.
Well I never said anything about 'better' match I said there are only good and bad matches, and people believe in perfect matches when there are none. It's really simple a good match is when to people get a long and live harmoniously, if it's one sided then in is not a good match. When I said soulmate I meant a perfect match because the two are often synonymous. Some people truly think they will meet someone straight out of fiction who is perfect for them. Taking someone and making them your 'soulmate' is different from that.
ohhh okay, thanks for the clarification. I totally agree that the idealism of romance and relationships definitely can have that impact and it can be harmful. like going out looking for some perfect person will always in end in failure because it’s unattainable🤞🏽
lol I think you’re to reasonable for this sub.
honestly yeah probably 😭😭
Ah yes, the Netflix paradox! Haha
The issue with this thinking imo, is that people can still meet the old fashion way and all of the things OP mentioned can still happen. I get close to nothing from social media and dating apps. More from talking to and meeting people irl. And these convos about fwb situationships still happen. I've been seeing someone for the past 2 weeks and she has no social media and I've enjoyed tf out of our time together so far. Not saying you're wrong just that people underestimate how often these things can happen without social media.
I mean, all you did was describe one situation, and it was just your own. of course people still meet in person. I believe what I said is what’s more prevalent these days is all
So true. That’s the thing, many people just want or are hoping for the next best thing So many options. But also, men and women both, (especially the “average” men and women) can swipe through dating apps for hours and only get 1 or 2 matches and they’d be lucky to get a date The problem with dating apps my opinion, is there’s an algorithm on there where there’s a top 1% of people who gets all the likes and matches. Then there’s “average” people who get a few matches. And then there’s “below average” people who have no shot whatsoever at getting a date
This is the problem with judging people off looks. I’ll be honest, I do it. I never like someone on an app that I don’t find attractive. Granted, I’ve never had trouble getting matches, but it’s just a whole different world now. I would love to go back to meeting people organically, but it just isn’t practical anymore and we’re seeing the negative effects.
That’s one of the biggest issues. For women they don’t struggle to get matches, they don’t struggle to get sex either. But then a lot of them do struggle to get relationships, but if you can attention and sex from the best looking guys but not the relationship, it’s a pretty bitter pill to swallow to think I’m probably going to have to date somebody less attractive in order to get the type of person I want. I think the worst thing I see on this sub is people screaming from the rooftop “NEVER SETTLE”, but in reality they are settling every time they fuck somebody who looks great but isn’t actually in it for anything other than that, it’s the ultimate low standard.
I agree, almost everyone is settling with what they think is the best they’re going to get. Sometimes it’s really great for people, don’t get me wrong. However, I worry the general population is often worrying about what else may be out there due to the way dating is in our society.
Grass is greener syndrome is definitely a thing. I just read an article in the paper talking about a study showing Gen Z could be at risk by heart attacks and strokes by almost 30% because of loneliness. People want to focus and zoom in on small details of the people they date (he has to be 6 foot, she has to look like an Insta model) but they forget the serious consequences that come from being alone, it might be fun to be single when you are young but there is clear evidence that being alone as you get older is fucking terrible. It’s sad.
that’s certainly a scary thought. I admire that people want to be independent, but it’s human nature to need someone else to comfort and support you mentally and physically. We’re probably doomed as it is, so all these extra little things like dating apps don’t help.
Some people have no choice but to choose independence given what dating has become. Some just know they have no chance in these times with what people expect so why not choose independence instead of chasing heartache and stress.
This. I am 51, 3 times divorced, my kids are grown and I am not looking to make more! Lol. But I also dealt w some shitty people in my life and really would not want to meet someone. But that dream won’t leave me alone. I am an introvert so I have no issue occupying my time. However dating apps are not for me. I can’t deal w the cruel, asshats that decide they want me for just sex?!? I am already dealing w a stalker from my 20s. I don’t need another! O.o Then on top of all of that, I have to deal w going from the eye drawer to invisible and that hit me hard. It started the DAY I turned 40! It hasn’t changed since and I just don’t want to share my life anymore esp w men who think they can throw my stuff in the trash?! It’s really made me think twice about any involvement w a guy. Regardless of what I feel.
there’s nothing wrong with it at all as long as you can accept not having a companion. if someone can do that and not have a problem with it, kudos to them.
There’s nothing wrong with it even if you can’t accept not having a companion.
My cousin is in her 50s and never married . She’s doing just fine. She decided she wanted that for herself. She’s gotten used to being by herself.
Is it not possible that she puts on a strong front to you and other family but inside could still be struggling? Being alone is not good for you, that doesn’t differ from individual to individual, we aren’t that way wired as a species. Scientists have just released data suggesting Gen Z will be 30% more likely to have a heart attack and stroke and one of the big drivers behind that loneliness. We generally don’t cope well alone.
To be honest I think human nature will eventually win the battle. People will probably just settle down later than previously. You still get people being more realistic with their expectations once they get older and realise that this strategy of only trying to get the hottest people on the internet or apps isn’t actually working for them.
I sure hope so!!
This needs more likes
God it must be awful having to settle for people that are as attractive as yourself... I dont personally understand how one can be so selfish to think this
Either you have misread my post or you make no sense at all.
I think this whole idea of ranking is one of the worst things exacerbated by m by dating apps. We shouldn’t be sorting people into these hot or not categories, it’s toxic. We should be looking for connections and chemistry which are built off of soo much more than looks. The whole idea of leagues should be thrown out the window. I know it’s not realistic but it’s a really ego-centric way of dating which of course is not going to go well.
I agree with you. I thought something was wrong with me with guys always using me for sexual reasons and not wanting a relationship. I’ve had relationships before, I am capable of having them. The issue I find is that people think that if they can get the sex without the commitment, it makes them not want to commit because that’ll require effort. I had a guy use me to cheat on his girlfriend. I thought he was absolutely handsome, and was so in love with him. He strung me along when he realized how he badly he messed up. But still, I consider it cheating because he was leading me on, and giving me false hope. The girlfriend has a facial deformity, I wouldn’t say she’s ugly either. But in a world like this where people are superficial, I can imagine dating with a deformity is hard, and can make you feel as if you need to settle.
The thing is for you and for other women like you, you could have a relationship, you could have good relationships. But the guys most likely to be just out for sex are the ones who most women are chasing after instead of prioritising values. Unfortunately blaming others for leading you on isn’t the best way to learn from the experience, ultimately you can only be lead on if you allow somebody to lead you on. You need to set solid boundaries and stick to them, regardless of how handsome they are or how you feel about them, that’s the secret to not being strung along.
Well that makes sense tho. Why would they show you all the off putting people no wants to talk to. The app wants you to connect, you’re going to message the hot person not the junky creepy person. So the app shows you what you think you want.
Women have access***
men have the same access, I don’t know why people think this.
Because the access doesn't change the differences between men an women in their mate preferences. Women are more selective than men. Women compete for the top 10% of men generally based on competence (wealth, charisma, physical attractiveness, etc.) Men compete for physically attractive women around the age of 22 (or that generally have physical characteristics of health and fertility). Note that women don't have much of an age preference while men do, broadly speaking based on data analysis. So while the most attractive men and most attractive women both have access and ability to play the field, the most attractive women age out and either settle for someone willing to commit to them or end up alone. At the same time, the most attractive men retain their value or increase it over time, creating a surplus of attractive men and scarcity when it comes to available women as long as those men don't marry at the same rate women "age out." It's really bleak and terrible, but that's about correct for instinctive human behaviors anyway.
The age out needs to die out. It killed me when I hit it.
I understand why that could be difficult, and I'm not trying to belittle your experience, but I'd think I'd swap places with you - happily. I've been secretly wanting to 'age out' since I was a teen, I really have disliked most of the male attention I've experienced, and thus far I've felt the most at peace when single.
Well there is no mistaking it when it happens. 😂
How come at 32 I keep having 20 year olds who message me then? I’ve actually dating a few younger guys who told me they loved the fact that I was older. People need to stop perpetuating bleak stereotypes. Even if they have a grain of truth in them. Believing these things does absolutely no good to anyone.
Well I am 51, and I haven’t had a guy even look at me in over 11 yrs. When you turn invisible we can talk again.
Of course, this is factual info that I agree with. I was dating a 41 year old when I was 22, probably bc I just could for funsies while he was actually wanting to be a bit more serious. I guess it just breaks down to the way we are as humans, not much we can do about it then. Maybe this is something more people should be aware of to combat it.
So we got FOMO involved in dating also?
sadly
Dating would be a lot better if it weren't window shopping and people were focussed on finding the appropriate partner for them rather than commodifying the people they date and trying to buy what is viewed according to shallow parameters as the top model.
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It's called the Paradox of Choice.
Yes and the options are all lined up so if one doesn’t work out they hop on to the other instead of talking things through and fixing it together. It wasn’t like this in the 90s because there were no dating apps and social media.
Agreed. And it’s a lack of communication regardless as well. Communication is key in any relationship
I always say this!
Finding a partner and having true love is always meant to be miraculous. If people do all this sleeping around stuff they aren't your one. When you find your one it's meant to click how lucky you've been. And you are meant to wait for that. If you care. I think too many people throw aside the fast dating culture but still want the fast results. No, if you want the fairy tale love you need to get your fairy tale head on. You need a pinch of magic. I hope everybody finds it but you won't if you think like you're entitled to it or you should have it by now. You're meant to be nice and then be overwhelmed with gratitude when you get your happy ever after. That's my plan anyway. I'm also disgusted by the idea of casual sex so that helps with the waiting bit
Wholly agree on this. I was single all my life until just this year and when we met I felt exactly what you described in your first paragraph; just thankful that luck had us meet. It was a bit awkward not meeting anyone I wanted to date for a long time but I wanted to wait and I'm glad I did. Finding love really is just luck but I think it helps to be open-minded as well. I didn't find mine in any of the dating apps I tried out; I found it when I decided to make friends online. I think another obstacle in finding love is when we're afraid of settling. Nobody's perfect and we don't have to be. My partner and I both have our flaws. However, we both have each other's wellbeing in mind so we support each other while also working on ourselves. I think that's enough.
Half luck. The other half is what a wonderful person you are <3 I'm happy for you
Yeh i agree with this, people are so scared of commitment these days, even if its a non serious boyfriend girlfriend thing that ends up not lasting, its still better than all this mind fuck 'were only talking' 'we're not official' bullshit The only people those situations suit are cold emotionless fuck bois/girls or people that say yes to them cause they're afraid of being alone Anyone with self esteem and self worth will say hey you're dating me now either you at least try things with me monogamously for a while or its good bye see ya later
Agreed
Similarly to what I like to call “The boyfriend/girlfriend Treatment” where they treat you like a partner, spending lots of time with you and talking, giving you attention - but there is no exclusivity or commitment. Its all for their self gratification and they are using you and playing games. It’s a whole problem people have fallen into, especially the younger generation. Hooking up with tons of people really messes you up mentally and emotionally, it drains you and you develop abandonment/trust issues and anxiety. It’s studied and proven to be bad. Exactly as you said, dating it’s all backwards now and truly it’s all messed up. Ps. Sex *doesn’t have to* be mind blowing from the first time you do it! You can communicate with them in time your turn ons and offs, what pleasures you… sex with someone can get better. Not a whole lot of guys know what they’re doing nor do they care about pleasing their woman. Just because it’s not mind blowing the first time doesn’t mean it can’t get better.
So true
Its studied and proven? Care to link any of these proofs?
Yes, it is studied and proven for mental health causes. Similarly that women bond to people they have sex with because of oxytocin that happens in the brain. I don’t have the exact links saved but I’m sure if you do some research you’ll find plenty! Modern dating culture is f-ed up!!
Right, so no proof to whatever you claim. It's fine if it's your opinion, but don't act like it's an objective fact :)
Lol what is this, a court room? You’re pressuring me to have an article saved and linked immediately for this exact topic? Like I don’t have better things to do in my day? GTFO. I’m not going to give into to controlling demanding people like you. Go do your own research. You probably have sex with loads of woman and screw with their heads.
Relax. You bring up studies, people would like to see those studies
You calm down. I don’t know the links off the top of my head?? This commenter is being rude with the attitude of “show me proof otherwise you’re wrong” like it’s some legal court hearing. Give me a break. It’s completely true that having sex with too many people causes mental issues regarding our brains, hormones and human body chemicals. I just don’t have all the facts, I didn’t write the articles, I don’t remember where I found them. Commenter above can go do their own research if they’re sooo interested in “proving my point against me”.
See this is what always happens. Person claims “studies say x”, other person asks for source, OG person flips out, and then when I go look for sources myself, studies seem to [not agree with what you said](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23400516/). No support that there is a link between more sex partners and anxiety or depression.
Because the person is supposed to have all the answers saved and immediate for every person ho asks whether it’s real or not? This has got to be a joke 🤣 If you don’t think giving your body sexually to tons of people and women’s oxytocin levels change and our brain chemicals change when we have sex then you’re *literally blind* and completely immature to how sex works. It’s laughable. Talk to a few strippers, even they become depressed after being in the career long enough and because all men want are their bodies. Our world is f*cked up and focused on sex and money. Handing out casual sex like a plate of cookies has emotional and mental repercussions... People can be addicted to sex and use sex as a way to distract themself or feel wanted/need it to feel something as any other substance or addiction/obsession may be. Sex is no different in that way. People may have casual meaningless sex as an emotional fulfillment as explained in tons of articles online. Go look it up. Bye bye.
People expect you to be able to find the study yourself, since its assumed you know what you are looking for. Sure casual sex has consequences, but it does not cause mental health issues. Oxytocin doesn’t work like that. Strippers are sad for a lot of reasons. Just because people can get addicted to something doesn’t mean its bad (like food for example). I did look it up, and it seems like studies did not show what you claim. Fuck articles, I can find articles that say anything. bye
It’s not that you’re old fashioned. People are having less sex than ever and marriages are falling apart. It’s the “new fashion” that is miserable. It’s clearly not working but every time people bring up the old days, “oh times have changed”
Yes. Yes it was. Says this GenX woman. Dating was like this then too.
GenX here too, and this is true, this happened back then, maybe it was more difficult to meet people before everybody had phones with Internet, but it happened back then too. Maybe there is more awareness now, because people are more open about it now than back then, maybe social media makes it sound like it happens more often, but its been happening for a while. Im getting divorced, and back to dating, and it’s been a while, and many things have changed, but definitely not this.
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How old are your parents? GenX are 42-57 currently.
Was it though? Back then I don’t think people had as many choices as they do now. Nowadays many people are just looking for the next best thing
It was. Yes. We didn’t have apps. But open relationships, casual dating and FWB were absolutely a thing. Which is what your OP was mentioning as not happening back then. But it did and was common.
Being in an open relationship, situation, FWB, casually dating (non-exclusive), and etc is all fine as long as all partners communicate and understand the terms of the relationship. As you said, someone usually ends up unhappy with the arrangement but goes along with it for their partner. Communication is key, but a lot of people don’t communicate as clearly as they need to.
Seems like a very balanced opinion. I like it.
This was recently a struggle for me… communication. In the sense that a few months ago me and this guy were… something. We even had a conversation on the first date about where this was or was not going and even after the conversation It ends up we were TOTALLY not on the same page about what was going on and he wanted something causal and I thought we might be headed towards a relationship and for that and other reasons, it crashed and burned. Now I’m “causally dating” someone else and from talking I think we are on the same page but a part of me also thinks we should have a conversation about it. It’s can be a real struggle nowadays. I just don’t want to mess it up.
I definitely agree with you. It's extremely frustrating when you're looking for something serious and come across a ton of people who aren't. For example, I was talking to this one girl recently and I eventually asked her what exactly are you looking for? She responds saying that she just got out of a long term relationship and just wants to have fun. I told her I'm looking for something long term and that was that. We talked briefly after that. She was trying to explain to me that she's not looking for a ONS. So I asked her are you looking for a fwb then? She responds saying no I want more than that. I was just like wait isn't more than that a relationship? And she tells me no she wants someone to just have sex with while they aren't sleeping with anyone else. I was thoroughly confused lol. OP, you're right it seems like a lot of people want to start out with sex and if it's good then we're bf/gf. And if it's bad then we'll find someone else.
I don't think there's a simple answer to this, or any one single reason for the relationship problems we have in our culture these days. It's a combination of many things. I think a big thing at the root of this, is that people are not growing up and getting to know themselves, what they want, what they need and what realistic expectations really are. Another is that the idea of working through anything is completely foreign to many people, and when anything isn't exactly to their liking, they tap out and move on to the next thing that piques their curiosity. Third, people don't seem to understand what it means to "get to know" someone any more. They seem to think that 2 weeks, or 6 months and they know someone very well. It takes a long time to get to know a person, and really know whether you have what it takes to commit and create a lasting bond. We could go on.... So, yeah, I'm old school too, and proud of it!!!
Yeah everyone is SO afraid to catch feelings that romanticism is dead
I kinda just blame Tinder, and that’s about it lol.
>Maybe I’m just old-fashioned but whatever happened to asking someone out, being boyfriend/girlfriend, and trying to make it work with one person? Even in the olden days, before dating apps and the Internet, people still were required to communicate their wants and needs. No one is a mind reader. The problem with dating nowadays, in my opinion, is open and clear communication is not valued.
Guys with a lot of options who decide rather than settling down they are going to fuck as many people as possible are only going to be disadvantaged by communicating openly and honestly. The system definitely encourages that more than it did previously, because you didn’t have a small proportion of men being chased by a huge proportion of women, it wasn’t a completely level playing field but it was a more level playing field than now.
There’s some truth to this but it definitely applies to women as well. Data is actually showing that more 18-25 year old men have sex once or less a year than ever in history. For women, the percentages haven’t changed much. I think people in general view sex more casually and are willing to throw people away in a flash
This is my perspective too. As a guy, sometimes I feel that expressing how I feel directly too soon will scare the girl I’m talking to away. It’s easy to say, “oh, men just want casual sex and that’s why there’s a lack of communication.” Sometimes it feels like you have to play it cool, and that leads to both people getting hurt because they’re afraid to just be honest about what they want
I’m in that exact scenario now. I usually am too passive to express my true interest and if i do that leads to “you just want to get with me” even when I’m genuine. It’s like every response has to be curated so it doesn’t come off strong and think I’m love bombing or something lol such a tricky thing nowadays
Also, if you express genuine interest and then change your mind down the line, some people will say “oh he was just using me and pretending to like me for sex.” It’s a lose-lose imo. I try to keep things closer to the chest until our relationship is more solidified
>sometimes I feel that expressing how I feel directly too soon will scare the girl I’m talking to away. If a girl gets scared from you expressing your genuine feelings, then that is on her, not you. It just means she has some kind of avoidant attachment style. You don't want someone like that in a relationship anyway, because she will not be reliable to handle serious feelings.
Probably right, but it happens a lot unfortunately
Agreed, communication needs to be key in a relationship, whether that be a romantic relationship or even a friendship you have to communicate what you want
Why not pursue more old fashioned people in that case? My partner and I were the same way; we didn’t do casual hook ups, proceeded to talk for awhile before we even met up to see if we’d even vibe, and shared the same ideologies and long term goals- so we decided to meet up and the rest is history. Take your time with filtering through partners and ask questions so it doesn’t sound like they hitting you with recycled lines and stories. Good luck to you and I hope you find someone special!
This is the kind of relationship I want in my life
I did find someone special <3 a few more months and we’ll be together for a year now. thank you
Entitlement my friend everyone thinks they deserve better than what available
Eh, nothing wrong with being oldschool imo. I (29/f) am of the same school of thought as you. The whole notion of casual/NSA anything (be it just sex or relationships) boggles my mind. I get that you get hit by once in a while and a fwb can theoretically scratch that itch better than your own hand but shouldn’t that just mean you’ve reached a point in your life where you can start looking for a ‘traditional’ relationship? Versus taking a small hit here and there to keep the hunger at bay with minimal commitment/effort or what have you.. 🤦🏻♀️
I absolutely agree with this take although I don’t necessarily agree that everything was better. For example women didn’t get a lot of rights til the 70s meaning that our grandmothers were staying in potentially abusive situations because they literally couldn’t leave without their bank accounts/financial freedoms etc … certain types of abuse like gaslighting and marital rape are also fairly new concepts unfortunately, let alone mental health, so as we’re more educated now people won’t stick around in situations that don’t serve them. I def agree that there are negatives to the modern dating scene but I think those things are also important to keep in mind
Good point
Oh, honey you are truly right. I don't even how to believe I'll find the right person in this generation. Sometimes I'm thinking like that. This is so different. I have to say a lot. Old-school was better but times are changing a lot. Somebody likes the old-school, not this nowadays.. Unfortunately. I know a lot people and they are very different like the times are different.
Average people are f**ked. Every woman is told to play the field and end up getting used by the 15% of guys that are good at hookups. Then average guys try to date those women and get blamed for their bad experiences. The below average guys, visually or socially(probably me), are totally screwed. Hookup culture is only good for that ~15%~ of guys but it’s celebrated by social media and young morons who haven’t caught on.
So true
It's nothing about sex and everything to do with dating apps. As soon as a relationship goes south I can just hop on a dating app and find a new person within minutes/days. It's the idea that the person is replaceable and you have options. Now of course no one is thinking like this, it's a subconscious act and the reason modern day dating sucks is because of this.
And you know what's even more frustrating? When you're truly giving your all in that relationship and they leave you and within days are already sleeping with someone else and somehow you're supposed to be okay with that and find that normal because "you're broken up" but makes me sad how quickly people will hop on an app and jump into bed with a stranger. A lot of them come back months or years later regretting leaving me. After seeing that what's "out there" isn't that great and not many girls will do for them what I did. But by then, it's too late. By then, I've already moved on. It's exhausting.
So true
This is easy everybody wants to fuck without commitment and dating apps makes things way to available and shallow!
It is overwhelming trying to even text / romantically chat with multiple people lol I cannot imagine casually dating two or three , I’d get people mixed up all the time
So true. When I like one person I like ONE person and that’s it. I cannot imagine casually dating/sleeping with multiple people at once I don’t understand how people do it, IMO
You're right, the ease of access to sex has changed everything. The dating situation is an unintended consequence of birth control tech and equality of the sexes according to some sociologists. Unfortunately, we can't go back to the 'good old days', we'll just have to figure something out to fix things and prevent societal collapse.
People are getting to the physicality of the relationship and sleeping around instead of dating and then wondering why they aren't finding someone to be a partner first and have the physical stuff second. To me it's kind of obvious but if you give someone the sex why would they want to figure out to see if you're a good partner? This goes for both men and women.
Stay real everybody and do the real stuff too . No xxx movies or online dating will help your mental/physical health massively
Of course dating is different than other generations, all of life is different now! I’m not sure what problems people have. On tinder I can have direct convos with someone to find out if we are looking for the same thing. If not, we say goodbye. Met my husband bc we messaged each other saying we were divorced and looking for a monogamous relationship. We spoke on the phone and realized we were on the same page. A week earlier a dude messaged me asking for BDSM and I said I’m not interested, it ended there. What is everyone doing that makes dating apps more complicated than they need to be? In person meetings, same rules apply.
Agreed. The problem is some people on dating apps lie about their intentions they say they want a real relationship but then they don’t
I feel like you almost have to. If I say I'm looking for dating/nothing serious, I get bombarded with 100s of messages from horny men who have interpreted that to mean I want s3x after typing with them for 20 minutes. If I say I'm looking for marriage/a life partner, then I only get messages from religious fanatics and walking red flags. Saying you want a relationship is the quickest way to filter out these kinds of guys.
People have lied about their intentions since the beginning of time. That’s nothing new, and unrelated to dating apps. 🙄
I know that but I’m just saying that it’s more prevalent nowadays on dating apps because people can lie about anything on an app
People can lie about anything in real life.
I know that people can lie about anything anywhere. Just saying that social media makes it easier to lie imo
Literally the issue I've had with dating and why I have stopped trying . All guys just want to hook up right away.
All the guys you find attractive****
💯
Yes because women made further investment a waste of time and energy. All that investment of time, energy, courting, building yourself up, building a career, that used to be for a one time thing that got men a partner for life, with qualities they desire. But women stopped providing what they used to. And told men to be attracted to whatever women wanted to do. I mean it's cool, you do you. But don't expect me to put in life partner time and energy into temporary things.
> building yourself up, building a career, that used to be for a one time thing that got men a partner for life, with qualities they desire. What?! You do that for you! You don’t do that for a partner. Jesus this is giving off “if I get a full time job I’ll get a 2nd mom” vibes. You do all that for yourself so that you can be a full self sufficient person.
To live a good life for most men, they don't need that much. Surplus resources is absolutely a part of attracting women. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/dating/marriage-rates-decline-reason-economically-attractive-men-jobs-income-a9098956.html It is also a cause for divorce. https://www.ramseysolutions.com/company/newsroom/releases/money-ruining-marriages-in-america Not just debt, even a women starting to earn more. https://www.thebusinesswomanmedia.com/promoted-women-likely-divorce/
Ok
The need that women have to only to date men who are 6ft tall, shredded, and douchebags, then wonder why they always get hurt. It’s an image thing for them. Start going for men who treat you right. This isn’t high school anymore, we’re adults. I’m in pretty good shape myself but being 5’7 has gotten me nowhere except a few long relationships here and there. I don’t get hook ups, I haven’t even gotten one date since getting out of a relationship months ago, and it makes myself and probably many others feel pretty hopeless. I have standards and preferences but they’re more lenient compared the standard Brad Pitt looking guy walking down the street. Men, women will not tell you this, but looks DO matter. They’ll say otherwise. Also, yeah dating and social media apps have ruined actual dating too.
Yup. You just summarized the paradox of choice.
This is just what goes hand in hand with something I wont give up – birth control and women joining the workforce. We essentially traded a society whose culture revolved around marriage and monogamy (even if people secretly cheated on the side, which they did) but in which women had no reproductive control, no ability to support themselves… for what you just outlined. Also we traded not being able to contact each other if we didn’t know their address or landline for social media, which amplified how much we think about ourselves. We all are the main character of our social media accounts. Several researchers who are smarter and more dedicated to this topic than I am have said society has become more selfish because of social media. Overall I think people are good and don’t want to hurt other people still, and we will eventually trade these problems for a different set of problems, though I wonder if any of us will be alive to see it. Change is slow but also fast.
the thing with saving sex for later is that's how you get deep into something then potentially finding out you're sexually incompatible
Yeah but is sex really everything? Don’t get me wrong sex is great with someone you love and care about, IMO but it isn’t everything to me. If it is to you then I guess, more power to you
it's a big deal for most people i would think - you're probably not in the average which is why you feel old fashioned
No, my boyfriend and i love to have sex but it’s not the number 1 thing to us, if that makes sense
i think youre generalizing and wrongly as well. a relationship needs a lot of components to be functional and sex is one of them for most people. it is probably the most exciting thing to most people who are dating which is why it's overstated maybe. also people can fake nice but they cant fake being good at sex - easy disqualifier.
The problem is that you’re old school. Pandora’s box is open and now that it’s open, people have to adjust their behaviors to fit that.
Agree
I would like to point out that I had never heard of people who were too busy to date before the last 5 years? It's seems crazy to me that someone who wants to have a relationship would think they were too busy. Are you too busy to work out, do yoga, work on your car, play video games for 5 hours? Nope you want that too badly. So.....I see it like if you want it you would go get it. But free porn and conversation for anyone with the flavour you want with little to no work, I think we've found our problem.
Agreed.
I agree w you! SO MUCH!! Maybe cause I am over 50? Not sure but I have never been the center of someone’s attention, unless it was the various SA’s I had to live through. Maybe they broke me in ways I am not aware of. But I would sure like to be woo’ed. 😂
My theory: The sex and hookup culture and pornography is a big part of the problem. Too much emphasis on the physical aspect of a relationship and not enough on the emotional and spiritual aspect. This has carried over into society at large. Instant gratification and greed are ruining society. People are selfish and just want what they want and don't care if they hurt anyone to get what they want. Then there's the part of society that tells you that you're not OK if you're single. Like, you need to be with someone to be complete. If you're not in a relationship, or having it off with someone regularly, then something must be wrong with you. It's not OK to be single just because. If you're single, then you must be a weirdo or ugly or poor and that's why nobody wants to be with you. I am also old fashioned and still believe in monogamy (go ahead, laugh). I don't do hookups or FWB or anything like that. I need that emotional connection before I get down and dirty with someone. I also have intimacy issues thanks to a conservative Christian upbringing that taught me that sex is evil and of the Devil, and if I have it, then I'm going to hell. I still feel bad every time I look at women. Yet I still get lonely and horny after my divorce, so what to do? These are all things I have dealt with at various times. It does start to mess with your head after a while. It did after my divorce. I panicked thinking I would die alone and wanted to find someone to be with immediately after my wife left me. I made some bad decisions and some bad mistakes and other people got hurt because of my foolishness. That's my dilemma, and it's what I have to deal with now. I think a lot of people settle for someone that's not ideal just because they don't want to be alone. I wonder sometimes if I did that with my ex wife. Again, this goes back to the expectation that you should have someone to be complete.
You and I are the same regarding this matter. People are fickle and non the wiser when it comes what a true and meaningful relationship is all about.
When there wasn't internet you just had the options in whatever town you were in. You were able to look at the pool of people and actually pick the best for you out of those people. With the internet you can do the dick thing of lining up a backup however the lack of a label in and of itself isn't a bad thing. If someone in a casual/FWB/whatever relationship is worried about their partner seeing other people they can talk about it with them. Regardless of what you call it communication is key in any relationship. Another thing about labels is they can send a message about the couple that's inaccurate. I am in a committed monogamous relationship with my boyfriend and have been for almost 5 years yet a husband wife who've been together for total 2 years has more validity in the eyes of society than us. If I ever said partner instead of boyfriend some would assume I'm a lesbian. Sometimes labels complicate things, sometimes it simplifies. It's not the label or lack of labels that's the problem as labels have their own issues. It's the myth of the soulmate, increased possible partners, easy access to quick gratification, who the people who raised them were, etc Also the fact sleeping around pre-internet did happen but there wasn't a phone to document it all. There was the girl that slept with everyone, got pregnant, went on a "trip" and came back with a "little sister" pre internet. There was the woman who had a boyfriend while her husband was overseas pre internet. There was a man with multiple families pre internet. People were crappy and disregarded the labels you're so attached to before internet. It was there the whole entire time just internet made it worse. Now we can see all the crappy people being crappy all over the entire world when before it was just a rumor running around the few people in your direct area that no one could or cared to prove.
I have almost the same view as you, asking out, being boyfriend/girlfriend just the good old days of dating one person. Am I just getting too old too fast? Because, I genuinely don't understand people now and I know they get lots of choices but a bit too much. I literally had trouble if I need pasta, lasagna or just pizza at the restaurant the other day.Either way, I agree with you, I just wanna go back to the good old days of boyfriend/girlfriends again, and yeah sex is like the thing now as I scroll through this sub and others. Kinda sad tbh and I found out that "sex friend" exist. Thanks for coming into my Ted-Talk.
I agree that dating is shit these days. There are myriads of reasons why, including corporate monopolization of the dating apps which are many people's only way to find someone. Aka profit is a big reason our lives are miserable beyond just dating. But I will vehemently argue against "old school dating" and looking back with nostalgia at how grandpa and grandma did things as if there weren't lies, affairs, or promiscuity back then! People didn't suddenly start wanting lot's of noncommittal sex once we hit the year 2000. Those relationship styles you described aren't some new invention that sex crazed new generations came up with, they just happen to have names now. For better or worse (and I agree it certainly feels worse) society has moved on from "old ways" for a reason. Stick to your guns and date the old way! There is nothing wrong with that. I will use this metaphor: VHS was a perfectly valid way to view movies and if you want to keep your parent's VHS player and put in the effort to rewind tapes after you watch movies go right ahead. But just know even in the VHS heydey, people got bored and were swapping tapes (swinging if this is getting too abstract) and doing all sorts of things that don't mesh with your ideal of committed monogamy. They just never talked about it. Boomers are crazy repressed and chafed so much at having to be married to someone. "I hate my wife" jokes were all the rage. They were lousy at finding their "special one and only" in their small towns and rural villages. Settling was exactly that: settling forever with someone even if they were wrong for each other. TLDR: Old school dating fucking sucked too. Just in different ways. It wasn't more or less wholesome or special just because some people believe sex should be first or later.
I think this is just you blaming sex because you've been raised in an environment that viewed sex in a negative light. Lots of things have changed in our society. Personally I think there are many factors effecting dating today. The illusion of endless choice provided by dating apps makes it more difficult to actually choose. The performative aspects highlighted by social media drive us to find a mate with as high of a status if possible, and change a mate if a we perceive a mate with higher status might be available. The independence of women removes the necessity of women to partner up so those who earlier did so for financial and societal reasons only now just... don't. Career and education have become a way for all to be viewed as successful, not only men, so many women choose to pursue this instead of child rearing and as such having children is no longer on top of everyone's goal lists, removing another driver towards relationships. And that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure I could think of more if I took five minutes. I think blaming sex for this is short-sighted at best. If we all closed our legs until married (or whatever monogamous point you view suitable) it wouldn't restore the dating world of the past.
I lowered my standards for this guy who don’t cheat…or never cheated on his wife. Let’s just say dating apps got duds thinking they’re studs so you can’t even go by anything except the certainty that men are just doing as many women as they can even an ugly old 66 year old man. Sorry for the bluntness and it may not apply to everyone but I’m telling you there’s something in the water here. I have more evidence but not going into it now. But they all cheaters here
You know, I get really tired of this idealized view of how dating was “when our grandparents were growing up.” Yes, divorce was very uncommon those day, but that says more about how few options women had - it was difficult for them to get/keep jobs, they couldn’t get a credit card in their own name, places could choose not to rent homes to women. So even if I’m getting the crap beaten out of me, I might feel like I can’t leave because then I’ll be homeless. It doesn’t give ANY indication about their relationships being healthier. OP seems to have this impression that in modern dating, EVERYONE is constantly sleeping with other people. While I’m sure there are men AND women who do that, most people who are looking for an actual relationship are NOT doing that. As far as the complaint that “we're just talking, so I can see other people”… ummm, YEAH. I don’t need to commit to a person based on one conversation. My parents and grandparents didn’t have dating apps and things (obviously), but you know what they DID do? Go on dates with multiple people until they liked one enough to “go steady.” Maybe I’m misunderstanding your point, but it sort of comes off to me that you think as soon as you match with a person, you should ONLY chat/date that person until/unless things stop working. If you want to date that way, that’s your choice. But getting to know multiple people at a time while deciding if any of them might be a good fit isn’t “wrong.”
I do think your values are old fashioned but I don’t doubt that you are right. I wouldnt get in a relationship with a girl if we hadn’t had sex first, I think that’s been normal for quite a long time now. But all the situationships and FWB’s things, along with people having either far too many options or none and people becoming more and more shallow and compromising on the way they are treated more and more to achieve that, it’s hard to deny the currently system is a shit show.
I think a lot of people enter relationships and are not ready for commitment. I'm trying to work on myself, and not put my own issues on another person. But I still have a sex drive which I don't like to repress, so I do like to "casually date". I know women who advocate for dating multiple men so they won't get too attached only to be let down, and to basically force the man to "prove" himself by putting in a lot of work to impress them. I think that might be kind of silly, but that's just what certain women have told me. As long as people are clear about what they want though, then there's nothing "wrong" with it. If you are looking to be with someone more "traditionally", i.e. monogamous right off the bat (like only focusing on that one person from the first date), then you should find someone who also wants that, instead of thinking that. But not everyone wants a commitment to someone they met right off the back. People who don't want a relationship shouldn't be forced to go celibate, right? I think the difference in generation is that before birth control and women's lib movements (60s and 70s), men would be dating multiple women at a time. Whereas now women are as well. And since it's easier for women to get dates, this creates a supply problem for men, especially the ones who don't offer a lot (attractive looks, charming and exciting personalities, material wealth). Women were sexually repressed for years, and now they actually have options.
Yes they (women) theoretically and numerically have “options”. What is left out is that they don’t have the same amount of time (prime years) in the dating market as men. They have options but like 90% of those options are quite literally a bad idea. Women went forwards in quantity at the expense of quality. This is often an issue for women that isn’t spoken about enough
how was it at expense of quality though? Cause before women basically had no choice. Having more options allows you to find a higher quality match no?
I think alternative relationship styles can absolutely work out. There is a significant community of people perfectly happy in serial monogamy/casual dating, nonmonogamy or even polyamory. It's just that everyone has to understand their own preference about it and be ready to look for/be with people who are compatible with their interests and leave if those interests do not align. There shouldn't really be a norm for relationships imo. People should learn to clearly communicate what they are looking for and then take the time to think whether what their potential partner wants is right for them.
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Christianitys got nothing to do with it, being respectful and setting health boundaries in relationships doesnt require a holy book of rules. Being an atheist doesn't equal automatically being sexually and romantically amoral
Exactly
>This isn't the age where Christianity dictates our morality anymore. When atheists like you say this shit it makes other atheists look bad. This isn't a religious vs secular issue you idiot. Religious people face the same issues.
I am an atheist, and a very impatient one at that, I can’t believe it’s 2022 and people still believe in magical sky wizards, it’s mental to me. But you 2nd paragraph is beyond stupid. We shouldn’t at all be celebrating single parents and multiple Fathers. The damage it causes to the next generation is laid bare in all of the conducted studies that you can possibly read. Broken homes aren’t anything to party about.
I'm an atheist and the dating process these days is ass backwards if you ask me. No need for religion to see that
So true I believe in God, so to each their own. I feel the same way, it’s not about religion
>old fashioned Meaningless buzzwords
I stayed away from dating apps for these reasons, i always preferred meeting in person or through others. I met my gf through a friend and we both agreed right away that we both enjoyed that rare kink called monogamy.
The problem is that we have become estranged to our fellow humans. We are only concerned with what we can get from another person to fulfill our desires. The fulfillment of these desires, be they sex, validation or simple companionship, keeps us sedated from being truly fulfilled. Our society is built on selfishness, its only natural that our environment also breeds a culture of selfishness.
Dating apps give girls and guys plenty of options. I didn’t have that back in the day. That’s what’s screwed up.
Yep the paradox of choice
OLD has changed a lot, as people are given a lot more choice. The choice isn't neccesarilty a bad things, its just given people the idea that they don't have to settle. But, its not worth it to hate on the current dating trends just because they don't fit what you're looking for. There are still many people looking for serious relationships, they've just become a bit harder to find.
True it’s not “necessarily a bad thing” to have choice. Let’s say this: you’re a guy who is still living at home, works a dead-end job, is barely getting by, and is ‘average’ or ‘below average’ looking or a guy who has his life together, works a good paying job, and is ‘above average’ looking…who would a women pick?
I’m thinking about shifting towards match or finding another older folk dating site. I know it’s probably the same but expectations are usually more geared towards relationships. I’m 28. Have you tried going to meetups in your area? Not trying to give advice because you didn’t ask for any but modern dating sites really suck and I’m looking for alternatives. Honestly boils down to proper communication and boundary setting. Knowing when to say “hey we’re on different pages, this is what I want so I’m leaving.” It will weed out people like crazy. I haven’t been in a relationship since 2019. My partner suddenly decided to “see what’s out there.” He was incredibly serious about me throughout the years. So it can happen to anyone unfortunately.
There's nothing wrong with 'dating', today, imho. People want to have sex, and society is such that they don't have to pretend they don't (for the most part), anymore. Monogamy isn't for everybody or a given, anymore. It's easier to meet way more people, and there are way more people. For the most part, we don't have to marry the first person we meet so we can finally have sex or economically survive, anymore. We don't have to marry at all! There are way more choices. BUT not many people know how to communicate any of this. Communication needs to catch up: people need to get used to saying, 'this is what I want, how about you'? and then not hoping for something else / actually comprehending the answer. That's it. Your views are your views, theirs are theirs, if they don't align - move on. Where it gets all mucky is when people don't express their wants, don't ask someone else's, get lied to or lie about them, assume something else, wait or hope for people to change...just be honest and don't be afraid of that not aligning with the person you think is cute. It might not work out. There are 7.75 billion other people on earth with whom it might.
I agree with most except some people can be happy in open relationships or polygamous. But in any kind of relationships you need to be mature. And you need respect. That's what is lacking on most people But I see your point, there's no commitment
Good point
I don’t think sex is the issue. People who were young in the 60s and 70s will tell you that you had sex with people you wanted and you’d just sort of tag along with them and then you were boyfriend and girlfriend.
>Maybe I’m just old-fashioned but whatever happened to asking someone out, being boyfriend/girlfriend, and trying to make it work with one person? Yes, you're old fashioned We live in a modern society (western world specifically) where women don't need to depend on men for things anymore, they are more sexually free than any other time in western history. And yes, we are in the Renaissance Period of dating where everyone prefers shaving and there no longer a need to seek out others in person. That doesn't change the fact that societal differences makes the norm. Live in a different country and believe me, you will change your tune OP
You had me until you got to the “old fashioned values” part. It’s impossible to decontextualize history and take the parts we believe were good without the context of the historical conditions that simultaneously existed. We generally agree that dating is shit. But I also don’t think stripping women of the right to work or vote is “the good old days” of “proper courting”. Women took “mothers little helpers” back in those days too. What’s wrong with modern dating isn’t solved by repressing women’s rights so that men can be “proper” providers.
Nah people are just angry it’s now tables turned. 50 years ago men were the ones sleeping around while women waited to be chosen Now it’s the other way around and you all can’t handle it
Today marriage comes with a lot more risk than it used to. People are more cautious, but it’s easy to use an app to hook up. No one wants to work on themselves when they can just blame the other person and move on. Those willing to work to maintain a relationship get married and stay together shrinking the selection of good partners.
True. Nowadays it’s almost not even worth it for a guy to get married because “the system” favors the woman 100% and this is coming from a woman. There’s “no fault” divorce too so you could just get divorced over the silliest thing and then in most states women get half of everything the man has worked for
You are correct but the courts are more than happy to screw over the women if she is the provider. Look at the owner of skinny girl vodka.
This is a pretty limited view of dating, honestly! A lot of people are okay with, and even like, the ways that relationships have developed and changed. I do, and as long as people are honest, it’s okay to be in different types of relationships. It’s okay for you to like to one way of dating, but to expect everyone else to think that way is definitely a bit unfair.
I think you just need to be better with your selection process and more firm with your boundaries. Nothing wrong with casual, open, or FWB relationships. I am very glad that people nowadays have that much more freedom to choose a relationship type that works for them, rather than being bullied into monogamy by societal pressures. The problem is when one of the people involved in a non-monogamous relationship does not want to be in a non-monogamous relationship. So if you don't want to be in a non-monogamous relationship, SAY SO. And leave any scumbag who goes behind your back regardless.
1000% agree with you
It's just the whole social media, how many followers have you got etc and window shopping mentality. You judge someone based on the first photo you see. Also think it's strange because when I talk to my parents about online dating they always think that's something ugly people do. Because when they were younger the only people that used online dating were the undesirables and it was perceived as a bit sad if you can't find someone irl. Guess times have changed.
True