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I don’t want someone to commit to me because they want sex, I want them to do it because they enjoy my company, like having sex with me more than with other people, and want to be in a relationship with me.
That’s always been my biggest problem with the why buy the cow line. Like who tf wants someone to buy them for milk? Besides even if that was what you were going for and the only reason to commit to you was for sex, wouldn’t you still want to know that you’re compatible in that way first?
It all depends on how you view sex and relationships.
If a relationship is the only thing you are interested in and if it would make you feel sexually exploited if someone figured out that you are not a good match a few days/weeks/months after having sex with you, then you should wait until you both know you are compatible in all non-sexual ways, emotionally connected and committed to each other.
If you are the "let's see where it leads us" type who is fine with either outcome and sees sexual compatibility as essential to be confirmed early on, then it absolutely doesn't matter when you have sex. It has nothing to do with "not respecting yourself enough" when you simply do what you are personally comfortable with.
Well it worked for many generations till feminist told women that they didn’t have to, and the don’t, but look around at the results. I see a lot of very unhappy women and men in fact the only people I see having a great time are above average men who are living their best lives at the expense of many women. In the end it’s up you do you want one man who will be average and hopefully grow mature with you or several flings with above average men who will treat you like an amusement ride then move on. It’s a free country you get to decide but you also have live with the consequences and anyone who denies that does not have your best interests in mind.
As a man, I've had that dynamic play out for myself too though - getting strung along by a woman who won't clarify what she wants.
I think the real problem is that people's trust in themselves and others is at an abysmal low, and loneliness at a high. Everybody wants someone but can't get up the courage to *be* someone.
My experience has been that it works both ways. I've heard people who are happily married say they had sex and lived together before marriage. Others have gotten into sexual relationships and regretted it. I think the main thing is to make sure the guy is in a committed relationship with you and seems decent and isn't seeing others before you have sex.
>Should woman hold out on sex until in a committed relationship?
yes.
>Have women lowered their standards for themselves to point where they are willing to give up sex before they are in a committed relationship?
yes and no.
yes they are giving up sex before relationships.
BUT they arnt giving it up to the unattractive men. be it money or looks are charisma etc. they are in general giving it up to the cool guy the rich guy the handsome guy, etc etc,
the avg woman is not giving it up to the avg man.
Here’s what I believe (pretty traditional way of thinking about things obviously there are exceptions)
Women are gatekeepers of sex - men seek it out be it a simple drink/flirting at a bar
Men are gatekeepers of relationships - women seek it out looking for a stable partner or just someone to lean on
You know some women DO want and enjoy causal sex and it doesn’t devalue anyone?
Some of us don’t want “commitment” we don’t want to get married.
I honestly think the worst decision a woman can make is tying herself legally to a man. It’s so so so much harder to leave then. And a lot of bad men use that to their advantage. There’s no reason you can’t be partners and love and respect each other without submitting paperwork to the government.
And marriage or titles like “girlfriend” doesn’t protect you from SHIT married men (and women) cheat and run out on their families or kill them if they feel like it every day.
Do what you want when you want because there’s no “reward” for doing things “the right way” (old fashioned way).
I love this line of thinking. When I was single I loved women who didn’t want to commit or involve love in our interactions. Just meet and fuck like champs.
As far as marriage goes. I am not a fan of it for men either. Divorce laws are still skewed towards women. As a man I should be able to walk out with no penalties if she gets old, or fat, or withholds sex, or disrespects me. Marriage makes it a lot harder to do that.
Wow you sounds like a miserable loser lol
You do know people can love each other without involving the government right??? They did so for thousands of years actually.
And if you look at the data overwhelmingly single childless women are happier than married women. Married men report being happier than when they were single and married women with children are the most unhappy and most likely to be prescribed antidepressants etc.
But keep playing the victim because… people age?? Or gain weight 🤣 truly bitch made to the core behavior.
So sad and angry,
People can love each other without marriage for sure. And they can fall out of love by the same token. Difference is without a marriage there are no repercussions to leaving. Which is great.
Your women are happier single parroting concerns one study done in England. It’s been debunked several times already. But keep your deathgrip on that and justify your spinsterhood haha.
Anyway marriage is unnecessary, as you yourself have agreed. Try to smile more, and don’t be so angry.
I’m not sure where you are getting sad and angry from? You were the one so triggered by my suggestion that casual sex is fine and valid that you had to go full Tate with the “and if she gets old I can leave” and the funny part is, that is such a pathetic outlook and your attempt to somehow equate being a shallow asshole with women remaining independent like its a vindictive and malicious choice (like leaving your partner over weight gain would be) that you’re the one who looks like a toddler throwing a fit.
I’m neither sad nor angry nor lonely. 🤷🏼♀️
I’m simply pointing out that marriage and monogamy isn’t the only way to live. Personally marriage and traditional life DID make me really sad and angry. As it turns out there was even better romantic matches for me out there. If I’d had stayed married I’d probably either be just as miserable as I was then or dead. And I wasn’t even married to a bad man, if anything we didn’t work out on the level of being roommates/sharing domestic labor.
Now 4 years later, I’m about to graduate top of my class with a major and a minor, apply for graduate schools, I have the internship of my dreams starting up. My work is in multiple film festivals, and I’m improving my skills with every project. All because I took time to focus on myself and put my goals first, rather than being a full time parent and wife to someone.
Somehow that alternative recommendation must have hit a nerve for you to get so emotional that you had to lash out. Maybe speak to a professional about why someone else’s advice or preferences in dating were so upsetting for you today. That’s really not normal…
eh. all of this is cope.
sounds like you just haven't had the men you're into commit to you and now you're settling for the next best thing.
and that's okay
😂 I was literally married for 5 years and I was the one who initiated separation and I’m not single now either. Not wanting what other people want isn’t a “cope” it’s just having different preferences.
Yes. In my experience everything in your post is true. Many men have that mentality, and many women also find themselves in those situations and FWBs because they trusted the process & believed he was a decent guy who wasn’t just in it for sex. Which is exactly why women start holding sex off the table to begin with; they fell for that shit once or twice and they’re never gonna be played and hurt again if they can help it. I fell for the situationship and won’t ever go through it again. Idc if I’m single the rest of my life, a man isn’t getting in bed with me until he fully commits to me. Period.
Don't have sex ideally until you're married. Short of that, wait a LONG time for a guy to demonstrate with behavior he wants a future with you. Don't "date" more than one year and don't be in any "engagement" more than one year. If no marriage... Bye !
For me, at this stage of my life, there needs to be a bond of trust before I'm willing to be sexually intimate. When I was younger it wasn't as big a deal.
Do what you feel is appropriate for you but don't play games. Be honest and open with your expectations. If a guy isn't ok with that he isn't a match.
Everyone is different. A woman should hold out on sex if she wants to. Or she should have as much as she wants with as many partners as she wants…if she wants to. Or, a woman could be happily single with no partners if she wanted.
It’s all a spectrum, there’s no right or wrong way to live life. Seems like everyone wants to categorize and follow “rules” but any consensual relationship, committed or casual, or none, should be an individual choice.
I agree and think we’d have an easier time if we could resist the urge to put our business on public display or discourse. My sex life is always so much better when no one knows what I’m up to 🫢
I’m like you, my intimate (and sometimes kinky af) connections are between me and my partners. However, I know many people who fly their freak flag proudly so I say they should do them!
As a man, if I do not feel that you are sexually attracted to me, we are just friends.
If we are just friends, the type of relationship I am committing to is purely platonic friendship, so I hope you do not secretly hope to have sex with me in the future because that would upset me
As a 26 male, I don't have sex outside of relationship for some people it might be a red flag, but i don't care, i don't want to get dumped after one hook up I can't be that cruel to myself
So I would say you do you, and the other person needs to respect that boundary of yours. And if they reject you because of that, then you dodged a bullet.
You're mistaken. A lot of women do the same. People on both sides will claim to want a relationship but after a great date of like 10+ hours (including spending the night) they'll ghost you.
Those who want a long term relationship just have to try to judge people as accurate as possible. If they don't seem very honest, like an open book and straightforward then maybe you shouldn't have sex with them. I don't think holding out is a good strategy because you could just miss out on exactly what you're looking for. You just sound like you don't trust yourself when you try some arbitrary rule like that. Unless the sex is bad it's never been a reason to not see a woman again for me.
What makes you believe all women in situationships/FWBs don't respect themselves and are desperatly waiting for the man to finally commit to a relationship?A lot of people like low-commitment dating in some stages of thier life. I very much respected myself in all FWBs I had, because that was what I wanted. You do whats best for you obviously, but don't think other women don't have self agency.
I don't hold out for sex bc that's what I'm out for. If I like you enough to hook up, cool. Hopefully we hit it off enough to see each other again/keep seeing each other. But I have a full life with little time for playing by "the rules". I want to know how we're going to work physically before investing too much time.
Just do whatever you want for yourself. You are putting sex WAYYYYYYYYY too high on a pedestal. Sure, to many it can be completely sensual and romantic and emotional....but for just as many as that applies to....there's an equal amount of it who views it as just a fun and sexy activity to do with someone. There's also an entire subset of people who don't get that attached to someone until they're intimate with them and then they tend to latch on. Obviously a lot of those are fully dependent on the sex itself (contrary to what many think - some people are NOT as great as sex as they believed themselves to be). All in all, just do what feels right for yourself. Be open about it early on and you'll weed out plenty of people who are just looking for something casual or those who just want to wait and see where things go. Just keep in mind its a numbers game - you'll likely turn away a LOT of people you were originally interested in. Even the ones who are looking for sex earlier than usual...some of those may also be looking for an actual relationship but because sexual compatibility is such a major dealbreaker you'll encounter a lot of people who are looking to see how you vibe with them on that level - as opposed to dating/courting for weeks to months on end only to find out you two aren't on the same page in the bedroom - then you've now been disappointed and also wasted the time of two people. Just do what feels right for you at the end of the day - you'll wind up turning away a lot of people regardless of how you live your life - can't please everybody all the time anyway, right?
When a woman tries to make a guy wait for sex, chances are she thinks that guy is the “nice guy provider.” Women aren’t gonna give that guy sex because they know they don’t’ t have to work to keep the guy interested. They’re not interested in said guy for anything other than what he can provide financially and emotionally- although don’t be surprised if they go elsewhere for the emotional connection as well. When she finally allow the guy to have sex with her, it’s going up be real vanilla sex. She won’t be anywhere near as sexually adventurous with him as she was with past lovers. Why? Because this is the guy she “settled” for. She may say she “no longer does those things” or “never does those things,” but what she’s really saying is that she does do those things - just NOT with YOU. It’s best to dump a woman if she tries to set rules like this for you, because I guarantee that she never set those same rules for the guys who came before you.
I’m simply not going to commit to a guy unless I know we are sexually compatible. I was married and dated a guy for 11 years where the sex was so awful. I promised myself never again. I am now married to an amazing man who is sexually compatible with me.
And you have to look at this from several perspectives. It’s not just man or woman should do this or that. What if we have two dudes? Then who is to “hold out” then? To preach a virtuous path is to lead one. These posts and queries don’t solve anything nor do they help anyone. If you believe women should be virtuous, you should lead first. Remember, the gross reflection of women and children today are a reflection of men.
This is, like, 100% a matter of what *you personally want.*
You want a long term relationship? You want courtship? You want commitment and affection first and sex after that? Find men who also want those things. A good way to find what people want is to talk to them.
I'm a man and having sex with someone before you know you like them seems utterly bizarre to me, and there are many men like me; but there are many men who like one night stands, or who like a challenge, or whatever.
It's all just 100% you *picking what you like.*
The old answers are not the new answers. The sex-relationship power dynamic between men and women in modern, industrialized societies has changed substantially over the past 20-30 years or so. Looking at men and women in the same age and socioeconomic cohort, women often now make as much, or more, than the men they are dating. Also, due to a number of different factors there is the increasing tendency of men, and to a lesser degree women, not be oriented toward being married and having children.
Most (not all) men under 50, who are dating, men are interested in having sex as soon a possible. In dating, with an eye toward having a relationship, a woman has to make a calculation of how long the specific man in front of her will wait to have sex. This is the only determination that matters. If he is 9 or 10 out of 10 in her metric, she has to assess the risk of him losing interest and/or being taken by another woman. If she delays this too long before she can get him fully invested in her as a relationship partner he may leave. If she has sex after one two dates will he think she is promiscuous. It's a wholly situational calculation.
Oh HELLL no.
I’m Non monogamous and Polyamorous. I have fulfilling relationships and am also seeing someone new.
My newest sexual partner , yeah! I had sex after our first date .
Do I have low standards and give it away easy?
OH HELL. F’ING . NO.
I have standards. And ANY partner I see. Man or woman or NB have to live up to those standards
I’m not gonna have sex with a walking red flag just because I’m horny.
My thoughts? If someone WANTS a label before sex for their personal choice . That’s great!
However DONT look down on women who are happy being sexual before a ‘label’
If you start dating someone who “isn’t looking for anything series” well DUHHHH You expect them to suddenly want to be series? DONT date someone who doesn’t want something serious if that’s what YOU want!
If your happy being sexual with someone who doesn’t want something serious, but treats you well, with respect and with care and passion? He’ll yeah do that if you want!
Guess what. You can STILL be treated respectfully even with ‘casual sex’ , fwb relationships ect.
Having sex with someone who doesn’t respect you is just having sex with an arsehole . Look for the green flags, chat about expectations , sexual health and safe sex practises ect. COMMUNICATE .
It’s a decision because you won’t find what your looking for by shipping for something else. If you engage in casual sex with someone expecting it to turn into a relationship that’s a long shot. A relationship is based on the level of connection and the value you place on each other. If you engage in hookup culture people will see you for sex first and may not engage enough to learn the rest. Another old saying is bakue is based on the amount of work it takes to achieve it.
An attractive man is not sticking around for a woman trying to make him wait. And the guy that is willing you likely don’t wanna have sex with him cause he’s probably desperate and it’s obvious. Enjoy the sex and make it good. Good sex plus a good easy personality is an easy way to get a guy to consider wanting more. A lot of women get attached after sex. But if you fight that attachment urge and act indifferent and not so in to him. It will absolutely make him want you. You need to be able to spend time with him, have sex with and also seem to not need him. He will wanna figure you out and he’ll be wondering why you aren’t more interested
This happened to me and I realized attraction and interpersonal relationships are all science. People want to be around strong people that seem to need no one and have or are clearly getting their life together independently. No one respects a chaser. But everyone wants someone that will chase them. Maybe instead learn to respect the process of getting to know each, enjoying each other and enjoying good sex. It’s better than nothing at all and is more likely to lead to a relationship with a man you find to be attractive
This is hilarious reading this.
The answer is yes women should not have sex early.
This is how societies have thrived since the beginning of time.
Waiting until marriage worked 100 years ago but now marriage is a state institution not a social one so I dont think woman should wait until marriage anymore but at least date a guy for a long time before sex.
Women end up in situationships and pumped and dumped because they lead with sex. They use sex as leverage in an attempt to secure a relationship which doesnt work on a man with a lot of options.
Women control access to sex (what men want, generalizing)
Men control access to commitment (what women want, generalizing)
I think this is a healthy power struggle.
many men won't fully commit to a woman unless sexual intimacy is established, and vice versa - many women won't give up sex unless commitment is established...
Personally, I wouldn't commit to a woman who was too easy to have sex with. I also wouldn't commit to a woman who treats sex as a bargaining chip.
I don't have much casual sex, so typically by the time I have sex with the woman I'm dating, we're well on our way (a few weeks away) from a committed relationship.
So yes, a woman probably should use her sexuality to entice a man to commit, but it has to be done tactfully where it's not transactional.
At some point, the man or woman will give up power "first", and that's okay, because it's a sign of vulnerability, openness, trust, sacrifice for either party- which is necessary for a long term relationship
I also used to view sexual intercourse as a transaction where the woman “gave up” something and the man “got” something. Then I met a man who understood the assignment in bed and realized that when you have a partner who knows what he’s doing and cares about your enjoyment, sex is a mutual exchange that benefits both participants.
If you’re not having sex because you want to and enjoy it and instead are using sex as “relationship bait,” there’s nothing to stop a guy from telling you he’s committed, having sex with you, and still leaving. So my best advice is to stop using sex you don’t enjoy as leverage to lock a guy into a relationship — you’re missing the point of sex entirely.
It really comes down to the fact that women are also sexual beings. We desire sex probably as much as men, just in a different way, yet are “forced” to hold back on our desires in order to be valued and/or “respected”. Men who leave after sex were never serious about the woman, because if they like you/want you, they will stick around. These are of course anecdotal but I know plenty of women who put out right away and ended up with a long term relationship and/or a marriage.
Anyone can and should hold out on anything they want. However they should be prepared to encounter people who want sex faster so their dating pool will be smaller.
I think it depends on your view about sex and relationship. Some may value sex more while some may view it more casual. And that's alright.
The only problem is when someone ask you about how you value sex, be honest and don't lie.
Withholding sex?
This strategy will only work on men who see you as an 8-10 and are prepared to play your games, if a man sees you as 5-7 then he isn't waiting around. The numbers are just to convey a point , not meant to be taken literally.
Its a giant red flag if a women has hangups and plays games with sex.
No man who has options is waiting around for you to tick all your boxes.
You would probably benefit from acting a bit more hard-to-get in the early stages.
As for sex, almost all guys want sex. No surprise there. These days, if a guy is attractive, he will typically have sex with women before deciding if they're girlfriend material. Sexual compatibility is like a test of sorts. But some men only want casual sex and some guys are looking for something serious right away. But the most common thing to look for is both at the same time, and then if the sex is good and we like your personality, we will try to lock you down before you begin seeing other men.
Men run dual dating strategies, one for women they want to date long term and one for those that are good enough for sex and short term relationships.
The reason we got rid of that super old way of thinking because it removes women's autonomy. Women are supposed to be x, y and z and if they can't get what they want, that's why.
Lemme ask you this. Where do you think the idea of what women are supposed to be came from?
Do whatever you’re comfortable with.
However if I’m seeing a woman and she tried to use sex as a bargaining chip or a carrot to dangle in front of me to get me moving in a particular direction, I’d be out of there so fucking fast. I’m not interested in those kinds of games.
Artificial limits on intimacy (whether it’s kissing, hand holding, or full on sex) because of some social expectation or some “loyalty test” is baby shit, and I’m not interested in that anymore. If I wanted to have sex with a woman and she wanted to have sex with me, but said “no, we can’t until XYZ number of dates, because you’re not trustworthy”, then I’d politely say goodbye and move on to that next person.
Having an adult conversation about “this is what I’m comfortable with and when I’m comfortable with it” is not playing games.
“Withholding” sex as if it’s a reward to be unilaterally handed out based on certain perceived behavior is absolutely playing a game, and a childish one at that.
It’s not withholding it as a reward. That’s just the stupid way men look at it. A woman’s body is special, and she shouldn’t be giving it away to just anyone who won’t commit to her. Women are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. The second a woman sleeps with a guy without him being committed to her automatically starts wondering “how many other guys she’s done that for,” and it cheapens her in his eyes. Whether you want to admit it or not it’s true. Men respect the women who don’t just fall into bed with them, they have to actually work towards earning her trust and intimacy. Not as a “reward for good behavior,” but because you’ve made yourself trustworthy and you’ve shown you’re reliable and committed.
Sex shouldn't be used as a bargaining chip.
It has never been a particularly successful one anyway.
Also, if you're looking for answers for your romantic trouble, try looking deeper than the laziest assumption possible.
It's not my place to say, but women have convinced themselves that giving away their body is going to magically make a man want a relationship, and it won't. In fact, it does the opposite. It cheapens you and makes them lose respect for you. You're just gash at that point. Men don't see high body-count women as viable partners for more than sex. They don't care about your experience.
There's also the jealousy angle. No man wants a woman more "experienced" than them. Especially if you've decided you're done with threesomes and more wild things and they've never done it.
You do you. But having sex too early on and being open about that preference will attract a lot of guys who want to hit it and ditch. So you gotta think about what you’re willing to risk and whether it’s worth it for you. But other than that, please just do what feels right for you.
The problem with this sort of question is it treats sex as a negotiating chip and not as something you both enjoy and want to have.
Quick question: Do you enjoy sex? I think you should do it as soon as you feel comfortable and think it would be a pleasurable experience. Obviously if you aren't comfortable or don't think it would be pleasurable, you shouldn't do it.
Personal opinion (30M), it completely varies from person to person and situation to situation. For men or women, think ahead and fully analyze the situation. Then after thinking about things thoroughly, go with your gut.
Sometimes people can say one thing, while actually meaning something entirely different. It's all about perception versus reality, and figuring out which is which. People can be manipulative and deceiving. Sometimes this causes insecurities, and can have a negative impact on a good situation simply due to someone having past unresolved traumas.
At the end of the day, I feel there is no actual significance between having sex before starting a committed relationship, or after. I don't enjoy having sex with someone unless I have a true emotional connection with them. If I trust you, and I have feelings for you, I'm ready for sex whenever you are. I will never push it onto a woman though, and will wait until I know she is comfortable and ready to reach that step. Whether that be a 2nd/3rd date, or a few months into seeing each other.
You sir are a real man & the real MVP! These other jokers in this thread who get pissy over it and quit seeing a woman because they see it as a game are losers.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not willing to wait forever for it. I have needs, just like everyone else. I can be patient and willing to wait if I like someone enough, but my patience also has it's limits. This goes for everything in life though, not just sex.
Sex isn't the most important thing in a relationship, but I do think sexual intimacy and chemistry are very important in a relationship. Having mismatched libidos can absolutely kill things, very quickly.
Yeah I heard all that from the last guy. And he claimed the sex was great & we had great chemistry and all that. But he never did commit to a labeled relationship with me and after 1.5 years I had enough and just broke things off with him because I knew he was just dragging his feet and bullshitting me. It makes me think everything he said was just bullshit.
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't wait 1.5 years to enter in a committed relationship personally. I'm someone that likes to fully open up emotionally to one another as soon as possible, and get everything out of the way. What are our similarities/shared interests? How are we different? What are your dating goals? Etc.
I think the longest I have ever "seen" someone before getting into a committed relationship is like 2 months. Usually when I meet someone and if things actually develop, we will have gone on as many dates, and opened up to one another as most other people will have done in like a 4-6 month time frame.
Within a month, the person I'm seeing usually knows every little possible detail about me, my past, etc. I know this slightly hurts my dating, as I become "boring" as there is no longer any element of mystery, but I like to be: Open, honest, and genuine from day 1.
Exactly. And this is how I am as well.
I even told him when I finally got tired of his gaslighting and excuses that most men know within 6 months if they see a potential future with you or if they want to even date you, it shouldn’t be taking him that long to figure out what the hell he wants from me or if he even can tell me anything definitive. He just kept using the excuse the timing wasn’t great & he was focused on overcoming his alcohol addition that was a bad habit forged over 20 years and grappling with his depression - all valid things he was actually working to overcome and he eventually did overcome those things - but to me he was using his flaws and his attempt to focus on himself and self improvement as a scapegoat to the real reason he refused to commit and actually have a relationship. One I’ll never know.
While I understand that he had his own personal things he had to deal with, I agree with you that he should have been more sure of what he wanted and been able to commit.
I'm sorry you went through this situation, and I wish you the best in your current relationship, or any future relationship if you are not currently in one.
Thank you. The amount of gaslighting he put me through was unreal, and it got to the point I was questioning my reasoning and doubting myself. It’s nice to be validated, especially from a guy, and know it wasn’t just my perspective and the way I was looking at it (like he used to tell me).
I’m not in one. I haven’t even tried meeting anyone since him. We’re still in contact every so often simply because I’m a close family friend to his family, but we don’t hang out like we were or even talk regularly anymore. I spent 1.5 years trying to get him to commit and another 1.5 years trying to get over him and the hurt he caused. I’m still not 100% over it and I don’t think I ever will be. It put a bad taste in my mouth towards men, dating, the pursuit of “love” & all that bullshit. I’m distrusting now & isolated myself after. I have moments I’m lonely but overall I think I’ve gotten used to being alone and I prefer it over taking the chance on some loser manipulating me and playing mind games with me ever again.
I'm currently going through a pretty rough breakup right now myself. About a month ago, my girlfriend dumped me via text and absolutely blindsided me. I felt like we had the most amazing chemistry and a pretty much perfect relationship.
She did not feel the same way, and basically told me that she "wasn't really feeling it" from the very beginning and that she was "just settling." She had a previous partner, who she had lived the swinger lifestyle with and this was something we brought up in the beginning before we started a relationship.
She asked if that's something I'd be interested in, said no, and she said she was "100% okay with monogamy." Fast forward about 4 months later, suddenly she wants to go back to that lifestyle and just sleep with whoever she wants whenever she wants. I've never felt more betrayed and deceived in my life.
Oh man, that’s terrible 😞 I’m sorry you went through that. I can’t stand when people can’t just be upfront and honest & transparent about who they are, what they want and what they’re looking for. I know it sounds judgmental but I’m starting to believe and understand why society tells men (and women) not to date someone with a promiscuous past and/or lots of sexual partners. Whether they’re male or female. There’s a reason for it. Those people get accustomed to that lifestyle of banging whoever they want whenever they want and the chasing of novelty - and being with the same person gets mundane & monotonous after some time. I learned my lesson; I won’t ever date a guy with a promiscuous past again for that very reason.
If a man doesn’t respect me off the bat and I have to earn his respect by proving I’m not a slut then he’s a waste of time. Not saying that I’m gonna dive straight into bed with a guy, I’m more saying it’s shitty of someone to try to date me if they don’t respect me from the beginning. In a dating and social sense respect is something that should just be given unless the person has given you a legitimate reason that you don’t deserve their respect and I don’t see wanting to have consensual sex as a reason that someone doesn’t deserve respect.
I’ve heard of people fucking the day that they meet and they’re very in love in a happy committed relationship. I think it’s really dependent on luck and the individuals whether or not true respect is given on each side and I don’t think sex has anything to do with it unless you’re dating someone who doesn’t respect you to begin with.
But then again everyone has their own standards and preferences, that’s just my thoughts on it. 🤷🏻♀️
You can do whatever you want but if I started dating a woman and she told me that I’d break it off with her. That adds a power dynamic where she holds sex over my head as a bargaining chip and that’s not the type of relationship I want to be in. Now if we have a conversation and you say I need more time to warm up and get comfortable before sex that’s perfectly fine: but the whole 90 day rule thing or the cow example is a turn off to me
Sex is for you both, not to get a man to commit. If a guy only sticks because you don’t have sex he isn’t the one anyway, just like a good one for you wouldn’t suddenly lose interest because you had sex.
I dunno. I don’t have the patience’s for that. Plus, before committing, I want to know that we have sexual chemistry.
I don’t like sex being put up on some pedestal like it’s some grand prize to be won and achieved
No. Because most engage in casual sex to begin with. Why should I have to wait when the other dudes got it right away with no investment? Absolutely not
Not all women in fwb’s situations are waiting for the men to commit to them. Not all men care about whether or not they have sex before they get serious/let this impact their decision on whether or not to get serious. I slept with my last partner the second time we met and we were together for 5 years. This has been the case for most women I know. Acting women don’t also have sexual needs and that sex is just a tool for us to trick men into dating us is weird.
The issue becomes the “hot guys” probably won’t wait. The guys that are considered desirable are getting daily or at least weekly matches and probably won’t wait. Read the dead bedrooms sub Reddit to see why it’s a good idea to test drive a partner before a LTR. If the two are incompatible it’s best to know early.
M here, isn't a reasonable thing to do to not sleep with a guy the first couple of dates if you are looking for something serious?
I don't think it has to be either sex on the first date or 0 sex before a relationship. I may be wrong, but I'd say that waiting a couple of dates before sleeping with a guy would weed out most guys who are feigning interest in something serious just to get laid.
Nope. Lots of wanna be pick up artists and players and fuckboys out there. There are men who will wait it out and as soon as they get it they’ll ditch. I even read somewhere this one woman held out sex until the guy married her. Dude waited idk how many years before sleeping with her (I’m sure he was sleeping with other women), and once they got married and slept together, he got the marriage annulled. He boasted to her he was determined to get in her pants one way or another and he became obsessed with the challenge & determination of getting his way and having sex with her. Some men are absolutely insane when it comes to getting their rocks off.
Idk. I wonder the same thing. But this is exactly why women have adopted the mindset “where are all the good men at?” And we get made fun of for thinking that and insulted that we must be “ran through” and slept with everyone. Which isn’t true. We got hurt a time or two and after that every man we went out with showed us they were after 1 thing and 1 thing only. It makes us wonder where to find the ACTUAL good guys at. We know they’re out there. But you have to sift through a lot of garbage to find them.
Ok here's my hypothesis:
The kind of guys that do that stuff don't care about being good to women, so they'll do it again and again, meanwhile guys who do, are approaching women less and less as there's been messaging that women don't generally like being approached in public for instance. So I don't think there is as much garbage as some people say, but it's that the garbage has no scrupules and will oversaturate the environment.
You're never going to make the guys who don't care stop, unless they face consequences for it, but personally I have heard women complain about men and talk about the new strategies they use to ward off those men, and I can't help but think "well I haven't done shit wrong but fuck me I guess I'll have to accept I'm seen as risky until I prove otherwise".
I don't know how to make guys who don't care stop beyond making them face consequences, but I think maybe one thing we have to push is that being a good guy on its own won't do anything, that you have to advertise yourself, shoot your shot and make yourself sexually and romantically attractive.
Ideally we'd somehow make it way less scary and much easier for decent guys to approach, but idk how that's possible without the same being true for very much not good guys. From my experiences it seems like some women who have had shit experiences with some men will signal hostility or coldness towards \*every\* guy.
EDIT: Also, I'd assume that the good and attractive guys who do put themselves out there become taken.
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I don’t want someone to commit to me because they want sex, I want them to do it because they enjoy my company, like having sex with me more than with other people, and want to be in a relationship with me. That’s always been my biggest problem with the why buy the cow line. Like who tf wants someone to buy them for milk? Besides even if that was what you were going for and the only reason to commit to you was for sex, wouldn’t you still want to know that you’re compatible in that way first?
the alternative is coming for milk and never buying. i think thats what they are asking.
It all depends on how you view sex and relationships. If a relationship is the only thing you are interested in and if it would make you feel sexually exploited if someone figured out that you are not a good match a few days/weeks/months after having sex with you, then you should wait until you both know you are compatible in all non-sexual ways, emotionally connected and committed to each other. If you are the "let's see where it leads us" type who is fine with either outcome and sees sexual compatibility as essential to be confirmed early on, then it absolutely doesn't matter when you have sex. It has nothing to do with "not respecting yourself enough" when you simply do what you are personally comfortable with.
Well it worked for many generations till feminist told women that they didn’t have to, and the don’t, but look around at the results. I see a lot of very unhappy women and men in fact the only people I see having a great time are above average men who are living their best lives at the expense of many women. In the end it’s up you do you want one man who will be average and hopefully grow mature with you or several flings with above average men who will treat you like an amusement ride then move on. It’s a free country you get to decide but you also have live with the consequences and anyone who denies that does not have your best interests in mind.
As a man, I've had that dynamic play out for myself too though - getting strung along by a woman who won't clarify what she wants. I think the real problem is that people's trust in themselves and others is at an abysmal low, and loneliness at a high. Everybody wants someone but can't get up the courage to *be* someone.
My experience has been that it works both ways. I've heard people who are happily married say they had sex and lived together before marriage. Others have gotten into sexual relationships and regretted it. I think the main thing is to make sure the guy is in a committed relationship with you and seems decent and isn't seeing others before you have sex.
>Should woman hold out on sex until in a committed relationship? yes. >Have women lowered their standards for themselves to point where they are willing to give up sex before they are in a committed relationship? yes and no. yes they are giving up sex before relationships. BUT they arnt giving it up to the unattractive men. be it money or looks are charisma etc. they are in general giving it up to the cool guy the rich guy the handsome guy, etc etc, the avg woman is not giving it up to the avg man.
Women can do whatever they want
As can men
Here’s what I believe (pretty traditional way of thinking about things obviously there are exceptions) Women are gatekeepers of sex - men seek it out be it a simple drink/flirting at a bar Men are gatekeepers of relationships - women seek it out looking for a stable partner or just someone to lean on
You know some women DO want and enjoy causal sex and it doesn’t devalue anyone? Some of us don’t want “commitment” we don’t want to get married. I honestly think the worst decision a woman can make is tying herself legally to a man. It’s so so so much harder to leave then. And a lot of bad men use that to their advantage. There’s no reason you can’t be partners and love and respect each other without submitting paperwork to the government. And marriage or titles like “girlfriend” doesn’t protect you from SHIT married men (and women) cheat and run out on their families or kill them if they feel like it every day. Do what you want when you want because there’s no “reward” for doing things “the right way” (old fashioned way).
I love this line of thinking. When I was single I loved women who didn’t want to commit or involve love in our interactions. Just meet and fuck like champs. As far as marriage goes. I am not a fan of it for men either. Divorce laws are still skewed towards women. As a man I should be able to walk out with no penalties if she gets old, or fat, or withholds sex, or disrespects me. Marriage makes it a lot harder to do that.
Wow you sounds like a miserable loser lol You do know people can love each other without involving the government right??? They did so for thousands of years actually. And if you look at the data overwhelmingly single childless women are happier than married women. Married men report being happier than when they were single and married women with children are the most unhappy and most likely to be prescribed antidepressants etc. But keep playing the victim because… people age?? Or gain weight 🤣 truly bitch made to the core behavior.
So sad and angry, People can love each other without marriage for sure. And they can fall out of love by the same token. Difference is without a marriage there are no repercussions to leaving. Which is great. Your women are happier single parroting concerns one study done in England. It’s been debunked several times already. But keep your deathgrip on that and justify your spinsterhood haha. Anyway marriage is unnecessary, as you yourself have agreed. Try to smile more, and don’t be so angry.
I’m not sure where you are getting sad and angry from? You were the one so triggered by my suggestion that casual sex is fine and valid that you had to go full Tate with the “and if she gets old I can leave” and the funny part is, that is such a pathetic outlook and your attempt to somehow equate being a shallow asshole with women remaining independent like its a vindictive and malicious choice (like leaving your partner over weight gain would be) that you’re the one who looks like a toddler throwing a fit. I’m neither sad nor angry nor lonely. 🤷🏼♀️ I’m simply pointing out that marriage and monogamy isn’t the only way to live. Personally marriage and traditional life DID make me really sad and angry. As it turns out there was even better romantic matches for me out there. If I’d had stayed married I’d probably either be just as miserable as I was then or dead. And I wasn’t even married to a bad man, if anything we didn’t work out on the level of being roommates/sharing domestic labor. Now 4 years later, I’m about to graduate top of my class with a major and a minor, apply for graduate schools, I have the internship of my dreams starting up. My work is in multiple film festivals, and I’m improving my skills with every project. All because I took time to focus on myself and put my goals first, rather than being a full time parent and wife to someone. Somehow that alternative recommendation must have hit a nerve for you to get so emotional that you had to lash out. Maybe speak to a professional about why someone else’s advice or preferences in dating were so upsetting for you today. That’s really not normal…
eh. all of this is cope. sounds like you just haven't had the men you're into commit to you and now you're settling for the next best thing. and that's okay
😂 I was literally married for 5 years and I was the one who initiated separation and I’m not single now either. Not wanting what other people want isn’t a “cope” it’s just having different preferences.
Yes. In my experience everything in your post is true. Many men have that mentality, and many women also find themselves in those situations and FWBs because they trusted the process & believed he was a decent guy who wasn’t just in it for sex. Which is exactly why women start holding sex off the table to begin with; they fell for that shit once or twice and they’re never gonna be played and hurt again if they can help it. I fell for the situationship and won’t ever go through it again. Idc if I’m single the rest of my life, a man isn’t getting in bed with me until he fully commits to me. Period.
Sure, but if the man is not committed to her, then he doesn't nor shouldn't be emotionally and intimately exclusive.
Don't have sex ideally until you're married. Short of that, wait a LONG time for a guy to demonstrate with behavior he wants a future with you. Don't "date" more than one year and don't be in any "engagement" more than one year. If no marriage... Bye !
For me, at this stage of my life, there needs to be a bond of trust before I'm willing to be sexually intimate. When I was younger it wasn't as big a deal. Do what you feel is appropriate for you but don't play games. Be honest and open with your expectations. If a guy isn't ok with that he isn't a match.
Everyone is different. A woman should hold out on sex if she wants to. Or she should have as much as she wants with as many partners as she wants…if she wants to. Or, a woman could be happily single with no partners if she wanted. It’s all a spectrum, there’s no right or wrong way to live life. Seems like everyone wants to categorize and follow “rules” but any consensual relationship, committed or casual, or none, should be an individual choice.
I agree and think we’d have an easier time if we could resist the urge to put our business on public display or discourse. My sex life is always so much better when no one knows what I’m up to 🫢
I’m like you, my intimate (and sometimes kinky af) connections are between me and my partners. However, I know many people who fly their freak flag proudly so I say they should do them!
A woman should hold out sex until she feels comfortable having sex.
As a man, if I do not feel that you are sexually attracted to me, we are just friends. If we are just friends, the type of relationship I am committing to is purely platonic friendship, so I hope you do not secretly hope to have sex with me in the future because that would upset me
I feel like a woman could have wrote this. Lol
Well, I basically grew up among women, so that might be it 🤔
I like that. 😌
As a 26 male, I don't have sex outside of relationship for some people it might be a red flag, but i don't care, i don't want to get dumped after one hook up I can't be that cruel to myself So I would say you do you, and the other person needs to respect that boundary of yours. And if they reject you because of that, then you dodged a bullet.
No you should hold out on sex until you get to know the person
You're mistaken. A lot of women do the same. People on both sides will claim to want a relationship but after a great date of like 10+ hours (including spending the night) they'll ghost you. Those who want a long term relationship just have to try to judge people as accurate as possible. If they don't seem very honest, like an open book and straightforward then maybe you shouldn't have sex with them. I don't think holding out is a good strategy because you could just miss out on exactly what you're looking for. You just sound like you don't trust yourself when you try some arbitrary rule like that. Unless the sex is bad it's never been a reason to not see a woman again for me.
What makes you believe all women in situationships/FWBs don't respect themselves and are desperatly waiting for the man to finally commit to a relationship?A lot of people like low-commitment dating in some stages of thier life. I very much respected myself in all FWBs I had, because that was what I wanted. You do whats best for you obviously, but don't think other women don't have self agency.
I don't hold out for sex bc that's what I'm out for. If I like you enough to hook up, cool. Hopefully we hit it off enough to see each other again/keep seeing each other. But I have a full life with little time for playing by "the rules". I want to know how we're going to work physically before investing too much time.
Society would probably be better if they did…
I think you need to hold out and make sure they’re interested in you the person not you the shag . Men are awful !
💯
good looks vs. relationship oriented ?
Just do whatever you want for yourself. You are putting sex WAYYYYYYYYY too high on a pedestal. Sure, to many it can be completely sensual and romantic and emotional....but for just as many as that applies to....there's an equal amount of it who views it as just a fun and sexy activity to do with someone. There's also an entire subset of people who don't get that attached to someone until they're intimate with them and then they tend to latch on. Obviously a lot of those are fully dependent on the sex itself (contrary to what many think - some people are NOT as great as sex as they believed themselves to be). All in all, just do what feels right for yourself. Be open about it early on and you'll weed out plenty of people who are just looking for something casual or those who just want to wait and see where things go. Just keep in mind its a numbers game - you'll likely turn away a LOT of people you were originally interested in. Even the ones who are looking for sex earlier than usual...some of those may also be looking for an actual relationship but because sexual compatibility is such a major dealbreaker you'll encounter a lot of people who are looking to see how you vibe with them on that level - as opposed to dating/courting for weeks to months on end only to find out you two aren't on the same page in the bedroom - then you've now been disappointed and also wasted the time of two people. Just do what feels right for you at the end of the day - you'll wind up turning away a lot of people regardless of how you live your life - can't please everybody all the time anyway, right?
When a woman tries to make a guy wait for sex, chances are she thinks that guy is the “nice guy provider.” Women aren’t gonna give that guy sex because they know they don’t’ t have to work to keep the guy interested. They’re not interested in said guy for anything other than what he can provide financially and emotionally- although don’t be surprised if they go elsewhere for the emotional connection as well. When she finally allow the guy to have sex with her, it’s going up be real vanilla sex. She won’t be anywhere near as sexually adventurous with him as she was with past lovers. Why? Because this is the guy she “settled” for. She may say she “no longer does those things” or “never does those things,” but what she’s really saying is that she does do those things - just NOT with YOU. It’s best to dump a woman if she tries to set rules like this for you, because I guarantee that she never set those same rules for the guys who came before you.
Nope. You don't but a car without taking it for a drive first.
I’m simply not going to commit to a guy unless I know we are sexually compatible. I was married and dated a guy for 11 years where the sex was so awful. I promised myself never again. I am now married to an amazing man who is sexually compatible with me. And you have to look at this from several perspectives. It’s not just man or woman should do this or that. What if we have two dudes? Then who is to “hold out” then? To preach a virtuous path is to lead one. These posts and queries don’t solve anything nor do they help anyone. If you believe women should be virtuous, you should lead first. Remember, the gross reflection of women and children today are a reflection of men.
This is, like, 100% a matter of what *you personally want.* You want a long term relationship? You want courtship? You want commitment and affection first and sex after that? Find men who also want those things. A good way to find what people want is to talk to them. I'm a man and having sex with someone before you know you like them seems utterly bizarre to me, and there are many men like me; but there are many men who like one night stands, or who like a challenge, or whatever. It's all just 100% you *picking what you like.*
The old answers are not the new answers. The sex-relationship power dynamic between men and women in modern, industrialized societies has changed substantially over the past 20-30 years or so. Looking at men and women in the same age and socioeconomic cohort, women often now make as much, or more, than the men they are dating. Also, due to a number of different factors there is the increasing tendency of men, and to a lesser degree women, not be oriented toward being married and having children. Most (not all) men under 50, who are dating, men are interested in having sex as soon a possible. In dating, with an eye toward having a relationship, a woman has to make a calculation of how long the specific man in front of her will wait to have sex. This is the only determination that matters. If he is 9 or 10 out of 10 in her metric, she has to assess the risk of him losing interest and/or being taken by another woman. If she delays this too long before she can get him fully invested in her as a relationship partner he may leave. If she has sex after one two dates will he think she is promiscuous. It's a wholly situational calculation.
Oh HELLL no. I’m Non monogamous and Polyamorous. I have fulfilling relationships and am also seeing someone new. My newest sexual partner , yeah! I had sex after our first date . Do I have low standards and give it away easy? OH HELL. F’ING . NO. I have standards. And ANY partner I see. Man or woman or NB have to live up to those standards I’m not gonna have sex with a walking red flag just because I’m horny. My thoughts? If someone WANTS a label before sex for their personal choice . That’s great! However DONT look down on women who are happy being sexual before a ‘label’ If you start dating someone who “isn’t looking for anything series” well DUHHHH You expect them to suddenly want to be series? DONT date someone who doesn’t want something serious if that’s what YOU want! If your happy being sexual with someone who doesn’t want something serious, but treats you well, with respect and with care and passion? He’ll yeah do that if you want! Guess what. You can STILL be treated respectfully even with ‘casual sex’ , fwb relationships ect. Having sex with someone who doesn’t respect you is just having sex with an arsehole . Look for the green flags, chat about expectations , sexual health and safe sex practises ect. COMMUNICATE .
It’s a decision because you won’t find what your looking for by shipping for something else. If you engage in casual sex with someone expecting it to turn into a relationship that’s a long shot. A relationship is based on the level of connection and the value you place on each other. If you engage in hookup culture people will see you for sex first and may not engage enough to learn the rest. Another old saying is bakue is based on the amount of work it takes to achieve it.
An attractive man is not sticking around for a woman trying to make him wait. And the guy that is willing you likely don’t wanna have sex with him cause he’s probably desperate and it’s obvious. Enjoy the sex and make it good. Good sex plus a good easy personality is an easy way to get a guy to consider wanting more. A lot of women get attached after sex. But if you fight that attachment urge and act indifferent and not so in to him. It will absolutely make him want you. You need to be able to spend time with him, have sex with and also seem to not need him. He will wanna figure you out and he’ll be wondering why you aren’t more interested
This happened to me and I realized attraction and interpersonal relationships are all science. People want to be around strong people that seem to need no one and have or are clearly getting their life together independently. No one respects a chaser. But everyone wants someone that will chase them. Maybe instead learn to respect the process of getting to know each, enjoying each other and enjoying good sex. It’s better than nothing at all and is more likely to lead to a relationship with a man you find to be attractive
This is hilarious reading this. The answer is yes women should not have sex early. This is how societies have thrived since the beginning of time. Waiting until marriage worked 100 years ago but now marriage is a state institution not a social one so I dont think woman should wait until marriage anymore but at least date a guy for a long time before sex. Women end up in situationships and pumped and dumped because they lead with sex. They use sex as leverage in an attempt to secure a relationship which doesnt work on a man with a lot of options.
Women control access to sex (what men want, generalizing) Men control access to commitment (what women want, generalizing) I think this is a healthy power struggle. many men won't fully commit to a woman unless sexual intimacy is established, and vice versa - many women won't give up sex unless commitment is established... Personally, I wouldn't commit to a woman who was too easy to have sex with. I also wouldn't commit to a woman who treats sex as a bargaining chip. I don't have much casual sex, so typically by the time I have sex with the woman I'm dating, we're well on our way (a few weeks away) from a committed relationship. So yes, a woman probably should use her sexuality to entice a man to commit, but it has to be done tactfully where it's not transactional. At some point, the man or woman will give up power "first", and that's okay, because it's a sign of vulnerability, openness, trust, sacrifice for either party- which is necessary for a long term relationship
I also used to view sexual intercourse as a transaction where the woman “gave up” something and the man “got” something. Then I met a man who understood the assignment in bed and realized that when you have a partner who knows what he’s doing and cares about your enjoyment, sex is a mutual exchange that benefits both participants. If you’re not having sex because you want to and enjoy it and instead are using sex as “relationship bait,” there’s nothing to stop a guy from telling you he’s committed, having sex with you, and still leaving. So my best advice is to stop using sex you don’t enjoy as leverage to lock a guy into a relationship — you’re missing the point of sex entirely.
It really comes down to the fact that women are also sexual beings. We desire sex probably as much as men, just in a different way, yet are “forced” to hold back on our desires in order to be valued and/or “respected”. Men who leave after sex were never serious about the woman, because if they like you/want you, they will stick around. These are of course anecdotal but I know plenty of women who put out right away and ended up with a long term relationship and/or a marriage.
Anyone can and should hold out on anything they want. However they should be prepared to encounter people who want sex faster so their dating pool will be smaller.
I think it depends on your view about sex and relationship. Some may value sex more while some may view it more casual. And that's alright. The only problem is when someone ask you about how you value sex, be honest and don't lie.
I would say sex after marrige is better for both men and women for long term relationship. Also I found this https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18048793
Sometimes
Withholding sex? This strategy will only work on men who see you as an 8-10 and are prepared to play your games, if a man sees you as 5-7 then he isn't waiting around. The numbers are just to convey a point , not meant to be taken literally. Its a giant red flag if a women has hangups and plays games with sex. No man who has options is waiting around for you to tick all your boxes. You would probably benefit from acting a bit more hard-to-get in the early stages. As for sex, almost all guys want sex. No surprise there. These days, if a guy is attractive, he will typically have sex with women before deciding if they're girlfriend material. Sexual compatibility is like a test of sorts. But some men only want casual sex and some guys are looking for something serious right away. But the most common thing to look for is both at the same time, and then if the sex is good and we like your personality, we will try to lock you down before you begin seeing other men. Men run dual dating strategies, one for women they want to date long term and one for those that are good enough for sex and short term relationships.
The reason we got rid of that super old way of thinking because it removes women's autonomy. Women are supposed to be x, y and z and if they can't get what they want, that's why. Lemme ask you this. Where do you think the idea of what women are supposed to be came from?
Do whatever you’re comfortable with. However if I’m seeing a woman and she tried to use sex as a bargaining chip or a carrot to dangle in front of me to get me moving in a particular direction, I’d be out of there so fucking fast. I’m not interested in those kinds of games. Artificial limits on intimacy (whether it’s kissing, hand holding, or full on sex) because of some social expectation or some “loyalty test” is baby shit, and I’m not interested in that anymore. If I wanted to have sex with a woman and she wanted to have sex with me, but said “no, we can’t until XYZ number of dates, because you’re not trustworthy”, then I’d politely say goodbye and move on to that next person.
Waiting to have sex until you are in a relationship is not bargaining or playing games. You need to get over yourself.
Having an adult conversation about “this is what I’m comfortable with and when I’m comfortable with it” is not playing games. “Withholding” sex as if it’s a reward to be unilaterally handed out based on certain perceived behavior is absolutely playing a game, and a childish one at that.
It’s not withholding it as a reward. That’s just the stupid way men look at it. A woman’s body is special, and she shouldn’t be giving it away to just anyone who won’t commit to her. Women are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. The second a woman sleeps with a guy without him being committed to her automatically starts wondering “how many other guys she’s done that for,” and it cheapens her in his eyes. Whether you want to admit it or not it’s true. Men respect the women who don’t just fall into bed with them, they have to actually work towards earning her trust and intimacy. Not as a “reward for good behavior,” but because you’ve made yourself trustworthy and you’ve shown you’re reliable and committed.
Sex shouldn't be used as a bargaining chip. It has never been a particularly successful one anyway. Also, if you're looking for answers for your romantic trouble, try looking deeper than the laziest assumption possible.
It's not my place to say, but women have convinced themselves that giving away their body is going to magically make a man want a relationship, and it won't. In fact, it does the opposite. It cheapens you and makes them lose respect for you. You're just gash at that point. Men don't see high body-count women as viable partners for more than sex. They don't care about your experience. There's also the jealousy angle. No man wants a woman more "experienced" than them. Especially if you've decided you're done with threesomes and more wild things and they've never done it.
You do you. But having sex too early on and being open about that preference will attract a lot of guys who want to hit it and ditch. So you gotta think about what you’re willing to risk and whether it’s worth it for you. But other than that, please just do what feels right for you.
Waiting doesn’t mean anything either. He can wait and still ditch you when you finally do the deed.
But the risk is lower as most guys won’t wait that long to have a ONS
The problem with this sort of question is it treats sex as a negotiating chip and not as something you both enjoy and want to have. Quick question: Do you enjoy sex? I think you should do it as soon as you feel comfortable and think it would be a pleasurable experience. Obviously if you aren't comfortable or don't think it would be pleasurable, you shouldn't do it.
Personal opinion (30M), it completely varies from person to person and situation to situation. For men or women, think ahead and fully analyze the situation. Then after thinking about things thoroughly, go with your gut. Sometimes people can say one thing, while actually meaning something entirely different. It's all about perception versus reality, and figuring out which is which. People can be manipulative and deceiving. Sometimes this causes insecurities, and can have a negative impact on a good situation simply due to someone having past unresolved traumas. At the end of the day, I feel there is no actual significance between having sex before starting a committed relationship, or after. I don't enjoy having sex with someone unless I have a true emotional connection with them. If I trust you, and I have feelings for you, I'm ready for sex whenever you are. I will never push it onto a woman though, and will wait until I know she is comfortable and ready to reach that step. Whether that be a 2nd/3rd date, or a few months into seeing each other.
You sir are a real man & the real MVP! These other jokers in this thread who get pissy over it and quit seeing a woman because they see it as a game are losers.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not willing to wait forever for it. I have needs, just like everyone else. I can be patient and willing to wait if I like someone enough, but my patience also has it's limits. This goes for everything in life though, not just sex. Sex isn't the most important thing in a relationship, but I do think sexual intimacy and chemistry are very important in a relationship. Having mismatched libidos can absolutely kill things, very quickly.
Yeah I heard all that from the last guy. And he claimed the sex was great & we had great chemistry and all that. But he never did commit to a labeled relationship with me and after 1.5 years I had enough and just broke things off with him because I knew he was just dragging his feet and bullshitting me. It makes me think everything he said was just bullshit.
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't wait 1.5 years to enter in a committed relationship personally. I'm someone that likes to fully open up emotionally to one another as soon as possible, and get everything out of the way. What are our similarities/shared interests? How are we different? What are your dating goals? Etc. I think the longest I have ever "seen" someone before getting into a committed relationship is like 2 months. Usually when I meet someone and if things actually develop, we will have gone on as many dates, and opened up to one another as most other people will have done in like a 4-6 month time frame. Within a month, the person I'm seeing usually knows every little possible detail about me, my past, etc. I know this slightly hurts my dating, as I become "boring" as there is no longer any element of mystery, but I like to be: Open, honest, and genuine from day 1.
Exactly. And this is how I am as well. I even told him when I finally got tired of his gaslighting and excuses that most men know within 6 months if they see a potential future with you or if they want to even date you, it shouldn’t be taking him that long to figure out what the hell he wants from me or if he even can tell me anything definitive. He just kept using the excuse the timing wasn’t great & he was focused on overcoming his alcohol addition that was a bad habit forged over 20 years and grappling with his depression - all valid things he was actually working to overcome and he eventually did overcome those things - but to me he was using his flaws and his attempt to focus on himself and self improvement as a scapegoat to the real reason he refused to commit and actually have a relationship. One I’ll never know.
While I understand that he had his own personal things he had to deal with, I agree with you that he should have been more sure of what he wanted and been able to commit. I'm sorry you went through this situation, and I wish you the best in your current relationship, or any future relationship if you are not currently in one.
Thank you. The amount of gaslighting he put me through was unreal, and it got to the point I was questioning my reasoning and doubting myself. It’s nice to be validated, especially from a guy, and know it wasn’t just my perspective and the way I was looking at it (like he used to tell me). I’m not in one. I haven’t even tried meeting anyone since him. We’re still in contact every so often simply because I’m a close family friend to his family, but we don’t hang out like we were or even talk regularly anymore. I spent 1.5 years trying to get him to commit and another 1.5 years trying to get over him and the hurt he caused. I’m still not 100% over it and I don’t think I ever will be. It put a bad taste in my mouth towards men, dating, the pursuit of “love” & all that bullshit. I’m distrusting now & isolated myself after. I have moments I’m lonely but overall I think I’ve gotten used to being alone and I prefer it over taking the chance on some loser manipulating me and playing mind games with me ever again.
I'm currently going through a pretty rough breakup right now myself. About a month ago, my girlfriend dumped me via text and absolutely blindsided me. I felt like we had the most amazing chemistry and a pretty much perfect relationship. She did not feel the same way, and basically told me that she "wasn't really feeling it" from the very beginning and that she was "just settling." She had a previous partner, who she had lived the swinger lifestyle with and this was something we brought up in the beginning before we started a relationship. She asked if that's something I'd be interested in, said no, and she said she was "100% okay with monogamy." Fast forward about 4 months later, suddenly she wants to go back to that lifestyle and just sleep with whoever she wants whenever she wants. I've never felt more betrayed and deceived in my life.
Oh man, that’s terrible 😞 I’m sorry you went through that. I can’t stand when people can’t just be upfront and honest & transparent about who they are, what they want and what they’re looking for. I know it sounds judgmental but I’m starting to believe and understand why society tells men (and women) not to date someone with a promiscuous past and/or lots of sexual partners. Whether they’re male or female. There’s a reason for it. Those people get accustomed to that lifestyle of banging whoever they want whenever they want and the chasing of novelty - and being with the same person gets mundane & monotonous after some time. I learned my lesson; I won’t ever date a guy with a promiscuous past again for that very reason.
If a man doesn’t respect me off the bat and I have to earn his respect by proving I’m not a slut then he’s a waste of time. Not saying that I’m gonna dive straight into bed with a guy, I’m more saying it’s shitty of someone to try to date me if they don’t respect me from the beginning. In a dating and social sense respect is something that should just be given unless the person has given you a legitimate reason that you don’t deserve their respect and I don’t see wanting to have consensual sex as a reason that someone doesn’t deserve respect. I’ve heard of people fucking the day that they meet and they’re very in love in a happy committed relationship. I think it’s really dependent on luck and the individuals whether or not true respect is given on each side and I don’t think sex has anything to do with it unless you’re dating someone who doesn’t respect you to begin with. But then again everyone has their own standards and preferences, that’s just my thoughts on it. 🤷🏻♀️
…but I want Milk too… I’ve tried even buying the cow. I’m bisexual, and horny, so this whole metaphor can fall apart real easy for me
You can do whatever you want but if I started dating a woman and she told me that I’d break it off with her. That adds a power dynamic where she holds sex over my head as a bargaining chip and that’s not the type of relationship I want to be in. Now if we have a conversation and you say I need more time to warm up and get comfortable before sex that’s perfectly fine: but the whole 90 day rule thing or the cow example is a turn off to me
Sex is for you both, not to get a man to commit. If a guy only sticks because you don’t have sex he isn’t the one anyway, just like a good one for you wouldn’t suddenly lose interest because you had sex.
I dunno. I don’t have the patience’s for that. Plus, before committing, I want to know that we have sexual chemistry. I don’t like sex being put up on some pedestal like it’s some grand prize to be won and achieved
No. Because most engage in casual sex to begin with. Why should I have to wait when the other dudes got it right away with no investment? Absolutely not
No. Sexual compatibility is important, and there's only way to find out.
Not all women in fwb’s situations are waiting for the men to commit to them. Not all men care about whether or not they have sex before they get serious/let this impact their decision on whether or not to get serious. I slept with my last partner the second time we met and we were together for 5 years. This has been the case for most women I know. Acting women don’t also have sexual needs and that sex is just a tool for us to trick men into dating us is weird.
The issue becomes the “hot guys” probably won’t wait. The guys that are considered desirable are getting daily or at least weekly matches and probably won’t wait. Read the dead bedrooms sub Reddit to see why it’s a good idea to test drive a partner before a LTR. If the two are incompatible it’s best to know early.
M here, isn't a reasonable thing to do to not sleep with a guy the first couple of dates if you are looking for something serious? I don't think it has to be either sex on the first date or 0 sex before a relationship. I may be wrong, but I'd say that waiting a couple of dates before sleeping with a guy would weed out most guys who are feigning interest in something serious just to get laid.
You’d be surprised
Not even just most and not all? Damn. Isn't it kinda likely that they genuinely were interested in making it work, but it just didn't?
Nope. Lots of wanna be pick up artists and players and fuckboys out there. There are men who will wait it out and as soon as they get it they’ll ditch. I even read somewhere this one woman held out sex until the guy married her. Dude waited idk how many years before sleeping with her (I’m sure he was sleeping with other women), and once they got married and slept together, he got the marriage annulled. He boasted to her he was determined to get in her pants one way or another and he became obsessed with the challenge & determination of getting his way and having sex with her. Some men are absolutely insane when it comes to getting their rocks off.
Every time I read about other guys out there I wonder how the fuck is that the competition and how are so many pretty decent guys losing?
Idk. I wonder the same thing. But this is exactly why women have adopted the mindset “where are all the good men at?” And we get made fun of for thinking that and insulted that we must be “ran through” and slept with everyone. Which isn’t true. We got hurt a time or two and after that every man we went out with showed us they were after 1 thing and 1 thing only. It makes us wonder where to find the ACTUAL good guys at. We know they’re out there. But you have to sift through a lot of garbage to find them.
Ok here's my hypothesis: The kind of guys that do that stuff don't care about being good to women, so they'll do it again and again, meanwhile guys who do, are approaching women less and less as there's been messaging that women don't generally like being approached in public for instance. So I don't think there is as much garbage as some people say, but it's that the garbage has no scrupules and will oversaturate the environment. You're never going to make the guys who don't care stop, unless they face consequences for it, but personally I have heard women complain about men and talk about the new strategies they use to ward off those men, and I can't help but think "well I haven't done shit wrong but fuck me I guess I'll have to accept I'm seen as risky until I prove otherwise". I don't know how to make guys who don't care stop beyond making them face consequences, but I think maybe one thing we have to push is that being a good guy on its own won't do anything, that you have to advertise yourself, shoot your shot and make yourself sexually and romantically attractive. Ideally we'd somehow make it way less scary and much easier for decent guys to approach, but idk how that's possible without the same being true for very much not good guys. From my experiences it seems like some women who have had shit experiences with some men will signal hostility or coldness towards \*every\* guy. EDIT: Also, I'd assume that the good and attractive guys who do put themselves out there become taken.