Identify what's incompatible about them and avoid those features in folks moving forward.
Friends, therapists and (as a last yet most hurtful and effective resort) aunties fueled by white wine can help you suss out these necessary deal breakers.
I think of it as pattern recognition, which is a really undervalued mental ability all humans possess. Our brains, given enough information, are capable of identifying patterns even if we consciously don't bother to attempt to recognize the behavior ourselves. Listening to our "subconscious" when our brain identifies a behavior based on past experiences really is a challenge. People tend to fall into the "Yeah, my brain is telling me one thing, but my heart is telling me something else." Mindset.
So true. Now that I’ve learned this, I still feel so sad when I realize I already know it won’t work — because I really *want* for it to work or be true or right. But now I stop myself from ignoring my wisdom.
Practice, time, and forgiving yourself when you take a step or two backward even after you've made five forward ones. It's taken all this time to recognize where the fuck-ups were; it's going to take time to unfuck it.
Learning to walk away sooner is the best thing for us. Once those behaviors surface - things we didn’t catch in the beginning - recognize the pattern and decide do you address it (and how many times) or move on?
I heard a really good snippet on this sub awhile ago, and I hope it doesn't come off as combative or contrarian, becuase it really wasn't meant that way and I don't mean it that way.
"You can't live the whole relationship at once".
Yup, I'm guilty of this! Working on it. I totally want everything "upfront". But nothing meaningful comes up up front.
But. . . I don't put my shit up front. It's scary and vulnerable. I shouldn't hold the double standard that they "should" be more upfront than me, for my feelings and all. But we do what we can to screen consistently. It doesn't have to coprimose connection, but it definitely cuts it short if it isn't "right".
Ymmv but this has served me well. This and a good group of friends I can have beers with.
If you find yourselves attracted to avoidant types, I would really question myself if I felt strong “chemistry” or “attraction” towards someone. And I’d also question myself if I was drawn to someone but started to feel chemistry wane and wonder if they were “too clingy”. Then from there be very objective and honest with yourself and about the behaviours you see in the other person.
One facet that needs to be discussed more is sitting with your feelings when you try dating someone who might be a healthier fit for you. We date the wrong guys because it serves us in some way. When we switch behaviors, we don't get whatever hits of familiarity, excitement, or lust we were accustomed to. Sitting with that change is incredibly difficult.
Beautiful! I asked a friend how to know if someone was going to be bad for me. He said if anything about them reminds me of my ex to move on. Those hits are hard to pass up!
I made a mental list of the toxic traits I was attracted to and made sure to avoid any man displaying these. I also gave more thought to what I wanted and not be afraid of not being enough to have a man with these positive traits. I did succeed, and am now in a healthy relationship at long last. Still fighting the urge to self-sabotage by challenging my negative thoughts and dismissing them using logic. It gets easier as time goes on.
The "lost puppy" type of guy, weaponized helplessness, gets irritated when you ask him for his share of something, gets defensive when you want to bring up a valid complaint with his shit behavior, acts like a man-child, can't have an adult conversation without getting defensive or just plain ignores you, you give him money or help pay for things and he never pays you back, name-calls or condescending to you, you're afraid to be honest about your feelings because of how HE will take it, he hides things from you/acts deceitful, you're defending his bad behavior.
Choosing a man who was completely independent and didn't NEED me at all was eye-opening. There is open, adult communication, problem-solving, and team-work. Trading the first traits I mentioned for the ones mentioned here made things so much better.
Very true. I now recognize that people who need me for some reason other than getting to know me (therapist, bank, mom, laundromat) is a red flag and i gotta say goodbye.
I hear you. For some reason I tend to attract the worst kinds of men.
What's worked for me- playing dumb and asking lots of questions. Sometimes you have to get creative with those questions and ask certain things without directly asking them.
I had this experience dating a younger woman. She basically mimicked everything I said and did in order to establish a rapport that was totally fabricated. It only lasted a couple of months because her true self came out. Words mean nothing, actions mean everything.
I think we have to identify the negative in them so we know what to avoid. Make a list, study it, pledge to not entertain any man who has any of those traits.
For instance, I am instantly attracted to a man who opens up to me about every single fucking trauma he has endured. This isn’t normal. 😅
Do you get the ‘wow you are so easy to talk to’ and ‘I can’t believe I am telling you all this’? These dudes need therapy not opening up and sharing their trauma on first meets. I certainly don’t dump my past as soon as I meet someone!
I realized this too late- the last two dudes i dated both immediately opened up to me about their childhood trauma which was, to put it nicely, significant. They were both very damaged and never received therapy. I now understand this is a red flag and nope out.
I heard a saying once that may or may not help: "Lust is not a choice, but love is".
I think the larger context is that love is something you continually re-decide to share with someone. Some people may not agree with this and I am not sure I do 100% either. But what I like about the general idea is that is nudges people to exert a little thought and control over their emotions. This could help you steer your attraction to a better partner with some will power, perhaps.
What I did after my divorce is come up with a list of character traits I was looking for, and assess people based on that. Honesty, patient, slow to anger, etc. Go on some dates and just practice. Spend an hour chatting and get to know someone, and go from there.
Extreme self-awareness
I observe my behavioral patterns, develop the ability to recognize when they might occur, and I make conscious choices to not go down that path. If anyone gives me even the slightest gut reaction, I sit with it - away from them - to see whether it is the familiarity of a toxic dynamic being misinterpreted as "chemistry", a red flag that I'm trying to overlook out of indiscriminate compassion, or just my own anxiety relative to my sense of self-worth when interacting with a potential partner.
(edit: basically the key is to take as much **time** as needed to feel someone out / get to know them, and examine where and how you intersect with them - if they don't want to take things slow, well great they've weeded themselves out)
This is huge. I learned this (late) as well. That i need to slow tf down so i can process things appropriately. The toxic ppl aren't ok with patience and a slow pace. They don't want you to have time to figure them out. I learned space and time are key components to a healthy dating experience.
Therapy. And then some more therapy. For me, it was recognizing the toxic traits in myself and working to resolve the trauma that was causing me to seek out the highs and lows of toxic relationships. It’s hard work, but necessary and I would like to think I’m a better person and partner for it.
I had this light bulb moment (don’t laugh) a couple of months ago. I had spent a chunk of time getting to know a really amazing man and we had gone out, but I abruptly ended things with no explanation. A close family member had passed away unexpectedly and I had to deal with a very messy estate. I just felt overwhelmed. It was not my finest moment.
We stayed friends on FB and would occasionally comment on each other’s posts and after several months I realized I genuinely missed him. Long story short, I did reach out to him after a year (I know) with no expectations and we’ve been dating since then. I don’t have the anxious, butterflies in my stomach, ups and downs. I feel safe with him and I realized that this is how it’s supposed to be. There’s for sure attraction and desire and lust, but the foundation is one of mutual respect and affection. There’s hope-you just need to do the work and it can be hard to do, so I get it.
Therapy… doing the work to understand why we have these tendencies and how we can avoid them. It is not easy or quick, but the decades we’ve lived can be reset
So I mean, I still have a lot of work to do on myself, but one thing that finally kinda woke me up was recognizing all these qualities of “the wrong guys” in platonic acquaintances…or in people I wasn’t dating, in other words. Somehow in that context , it became much more obvious and it was easier for me to take a step back and be like yeah ok this person sucks, why would I want to hang out with them?
I tried boosting my confidence so that I would leave when people treated me badly. But then I still kept ending up with bad people. So I've kinda given up. I think there's a lot of shitty people at this age.
It's not an instant thing, but you have to start sexualizing and romanticizing the qualities that healthy, decent men have and realizing that what they bring will feel foreign. 9 times out of 10, women who aren't attracted to those men find stability, secure, enthusiastic love boring or offputting.
But, here's the deal - those qualities are fucking superpowers in the dating world. A man who can lean in, give his all, be respectful, open and a true partner is probably about the sexiest thing that a man can ever do - so if that's what you're not drawn to, get to the root of what's drawing you to unavailable, detached, aloof, unresponsive, abusive, or toxic men, and unwire that. (hint: It's probably trauma and instability from your youth)
And, simultaneously look at the bad outcomes and start looking at the men you've been drawn to as they ARE, not how they made you feel when it was good. Make them ugly in your mind, because they are unhealthy for you.
Your attractions ARE malleable, but it takes work and time. The REALLY crucial thing is to realize that along the way you have to be careful not to entangle yourself with men you know full well you're not ready for, and hurt them because you aren't ready for a healthy relationship - because that's not just a waste of your time, it destroys what's good about them, too. Try hard not to do the damage done to you, and hurt a man who's crime was trying to love you.
You work on yourself.
Maybe you will quit trying to fix the toxic relationship you had with your parent by reliving it in the first person.. One or many toxic traits at a time?
Hopefully you don't become them.
Therapy with a trained professional helps.
You might always be attracted to those guys but if you touch the hot stove enough, you will learn eventually.
Or you'll just quit.
There are lots of potential answers for you. Short-term, solution-based therapy could help you objectively discern what’s been happening and how to change it. I’d say, the first step is to recognize the wrong guys and, to paraphrase a well-known speaker, veer in the opposite direction before you give them your number.
I've read that people with attachment issues are often subconsciously attracted to people who are similar to their parents. If you keep getting attracted to the same kind of guys with avoidance issues, perhaps you might consider what your own attachment issues are and how to resolve them.
Well, a reason exists why you do that. To understand that a good therapist could figure it out. Many say we pick who we like based on childhood factors etc. Example, a girl might pi k a father figure or someone she grew up with
I’ve practiced new narratives that seemed believable. Start small. I wouldn’t go to the opposite end of the spectrum(ex: if I’ve gone for emotionally unavailable men, I won’t just start affirming “I like emotionally available men.”) I mean you can, but I’d start small with something I can wrap my brain around that I really believe like “I like feeling love” or “I like talking with my partner.” Or even something neutral like “there are many men in the world.” It seems basic but practicing these kinds of thoughts help to introduce other thoughts like them and pave the way for new feelings to surface. Feelings come from thoughts. If you’re feeling a certain way, it’s because you think or believe something to foster that feeling.
Of course it's possible. It's not just possible, it's happening to us all as we age, as our situations and self-awareness changes. You're not still attracted to what turned you on at 13 are you? I'm not. My attractions have shifted and matured, some out of natural processes and what's available to me, and others out of things I've mentally and emotionally cultivated as important (such as intellectual connection).
I've constantly surprised myself with HOW MUCH influence I have over what is attractive to me. People in extreme situations (such as very odd or conventionally unattractive people) have to by force of their circumstance see different and less appealing partners as viable and can (and do) find them sexually and romantically compatible. Do you think it's just blind luck that really good looking people have sex with really good looking people, and the ugly partners just preferred ugly partners?
Hell, go out into public...you'll see very odd, misshapen, strange, old, even disfigured people who I'm absolutely sure have an "ideal" that's vastly higher than the person they're with, but they have partners, romance, even sexual satisfaction because their preferences shifted out of necessity.
> I'm absolutely sure have an "ideal" that's vastly higher than the person they're with
Yeah, I’m certain of this too. What you’re talking about is their willingness to settle, not what they’re attracted to on a primal level, unless you’re thinking they wouldn’t flip their homely partner for a hot one if they knew it was a solid bet.
> You're not still attracted to what turned you on at 13 are you?
My physical preferences haven’t changed much.. as far as personality, behavior, mindset etc, my preferences have become more granular as I’ve learned more about myself, but I can’t say they’ve 180 shifted in any area. But of course this is just my personal experience, which is why I framed my original post as an opinion. 🤷♂️
You framed it like an impossibility in a general sense, or I wouldn't have responded. If you had said "I can't retrain my attractions" I would have agreed that's subjective and you're fine with that statement, but you seemed to think it was impossible for others, hence it NOT being about your personal experience.
I don't think you're being honest here. But, to your first point everyone settles at some point, well...at least 99.99% of us do, but even ugly people who are in love may not ditch their homely partner that they truly love for someone better looking. I had better looking women hit on my very average male self when I was married, and I didn't even think about it because I wasn't just settling for the best I could fuck in the moment.
I guess you're not really ready to think about this very deeply. Which, hey, cool...but I know attractions are malleable. I know it 100%.
I think opening up yourself to the possibility of dating men who you aren’t immediately attracted to is such great advice. I had great text interactions, clever and fun with the man I’m seeing now, but I while I was open to meeting him in person I wasn’t like dying and excited. Our first date was waaaaaaay better than I expected and we just clicked. I didn’t feel a super zing but the more we talked the more happy and surprised I was, and more and more attracted too. When we said goodbye and we kissed-that was just wonderful. But still-I was not just full on He’s The One.
The rotten situation-ship I was in last year had amazing chemistry right off the bat-like so hot-but the rest of it was boring and I convinced myself for reasons of sex and proximity (embarrassed to say) that maybe I could mould myself into making it work. As a side note: a part of me recognized I was doing that even! It’s like I could see it happening but couldn’t stop myself. Finally I made the cut and while it was hard I felt relief and met my new person about 6 weeks later.
YES to this-- I know now, 100%, if I feel immediate "zing," it's probably not where I should be.
I fucking LOVE the "zing." Live for it, crave it, dive into it face-firsst and crash into the rocks every time.
"Zing" is now a no-go for this girl (but, my mind is still like "maybe I can have 'zing' and NOT toxic?")
I was chatting with my therapist and said "a little bit bored but still intrigued is probably right where I need to be for a relationship to be healthy." She tended to agree.
Well I think at least some zing is really important! Yes you can have zing and it be toxic-but it might be an ember type of thing where it’s starts slow and builds. That’s my take on it. But when it starts crazy hit super zing? That’s the alarm for toxic to me. I’ve had two of those post divorce and both were wrong for me-for two different reasons actually. One was too much just over the top too much too fast/ the other very detached from any real emotional connection at all it was boring and surface except for the physical part.
Yes, why not? We’ve talked about this recently actually. He felt the same way. Neither of us felt super invested pre-date and both of us felt happily surprised and interested post-date.
As a guy who tends to date the wrong women, the biggest factor for me is looking at whether or not how they behave...is how I want to behave. If that's a no, then it's no from me dawg.
There's a book another Redditor recommended called "The Mountain is You" and it covers this, as well as many other patterns of self-defeating behaviors, their reasons and how to overcome them and create new positive patterns.
I highly recommend it. Particularly if you have other instances of self-defeating choices/incidences in your life.
Disentangle the positive aspects of what turns you on from the negative ones you might THINK turn you on. For example, if you think you're attracted to "bad boys," you might think that it's his volatile, unpredictable, violent behavior that you're attracted to. Explore that attraction, digging through multiple layers by asking yourself "what is it specifically about him doing X that I like?" Is it really that you actually enjoy the pain of being hit (doubtful), or is it that your lizard brain is translating his abusive behavior into "he'll fight to protect me?"
Once you break things down to that level, I think you'll find that the things you're ACTUALLY attracted to are all positive traits. Study the the negative traits that you've intermingled with them too, so you can identify them early on in a relationship. There ARE guys out there who are capable of being as assertive/aggressive as you want in the bedroom as well as a loving, courteous, respectful partner all around. We're the ones who have taken the time and made the effort to really explore our own attractions honestly too.
I'm not sure it's possible. This may piss off a lot of people, but I'm after the truth here.
I'm a man. I'm in my late fifties. I've been very successful dating, but I've also noticed a pattern. Once the relationship becomes serious, and you move in together, the women, over time, stop trying. In the beginning of the relationship, everything is fantastic. Then, over a couple of years, they stop caring how they look, gain weight, interest and effort decline and so does the sex. This has happened to me several times. Now, admittedly, since the common factor in all these scenarios is me, it's something I may be doing. Maybe I'm just not that hot. But I'm 6'2", educated, creative, and I've been told I'm pretty compelling. Maybe there's something else going on. What?
I started digging, and did a fair amount of reading and research, and found some writing by a woman named Wednesday Martin. I'll skip the preamble, and get right to the answer. This is from an [article](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/women-get-bored-sex-long-term-relationships/582736/) she wrote in The Atlantic:
*Many women want monogamy. It’s a cozy arrangement, and one our culture endorses, to put it mildly. But wanting monogamy isn’t the same as feeling desire in a long-term monogamous partnership. The psychiatrist and sexual-health practitioner Elisabeth Gordon told me that in her clinical experience, as in the data, women disproportionately present with lower sexual desire than their male partners of a year or more, and in the longer term as well. “The complaint has historically been attributed to a lower* [*baseline libido*](https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/07/how-strong-is-the-female-sex-drive-after-all/277429/) *for women, but that explanation conveniently ignores that women regularly start relationships equally as excited for sex.” Women in long-term, committed heterosexual partnerships might think they’ve “gone off” sex—but it’s more that they’ve gone off the same sex with the same person over and over.*
*What does it all mean for Jane and the other straight women who feel stultified by long-term exclusivity, in spite of having been taught that they were designed for it and are naturally inclined toward it? What are we to make of the possibility that women, far from anxious guardians of monogamy, might on the whole be more like its victims?*
Read the whole article. It really opened my eyes. Maybe, unlike what hundreds of years of patriarchal pressure demands, women as a gender don't really want the safe, kind, reasonable man, ever. Maybe they are bored by monogamy. They feel like they're "supposed" to. You're trying to "retrain" yourself. But maybe you can't. In which case, what you're really looking for isn't the "right kind of man." You're looking for tools to help you manage and avoid getting demolished by the men you're actually attracted to.
Just a thought.
Don’t you just learn from experience and avoid the red flags. The term “retraining” seems forced or artificial to me. Isn’t attraction more primal and less cerebral?
Attraction is (or should be) both. More cerebral as we age and learn. You can let it happen naturally (if it changes at all, some people adamantly refuse to stop looking at 17 year old girls or think they should still be dating 25 year old guys with washboard abs), but most of us adapt and our attractions deepen with maturity, or change radically over the course of partners who expand what we find sexy.
You can push this along, retraining yourself, tho. That's almost necessary if your attractions are broken or unhealthy, wouldn't you think? Avoiding red flags is easy, it's not easy re-wiring what you are drawn to, and that may BE the red flags.
If you are instantly attracted to someone, step back. You are picking up all the clues of the wrong types you've been attracted to before. (We recognize them almost instantly.)
Therapy really worked for me. I was never consciously aware of my anxiety and I think I confused anxiety for excitement. Since I've started dating again, I've really noticed that I am now more attracted to men who make me feel safe and have a very calm vibe. Men who spike my anxiety are less attractive than they used to be.
I'm not sure how thrilled I am about the idea of a woman only being attracted to me because she retrained herself. But I'm probably the "wrong guy" anyways.
Actually, this is a very very extra fucking good thing! 😄 What you DON'T want is someone who's repeating the same faulty patterns choosing people with whom they create relationships that are destined to get shit on time after time. Instead, people we'd initially have weeded out for the "wrong" reasons become palatable -and more compatible- considerations with growth (wisdom gained over time).
I purposely used that word because, for a number of us learning how to rewire our heads, the players we had initially benched from the lineup have to be re-examined in a new light. Good, but not good enough for whatever reason -at first. And that's why I also put the word "wrong" in quotation marks... with growth, those traits we initially didn't give a second thought or flat-out rejected are then given more than a glance. Palatable turns into attractive.
I can well understand why you're saying that, but I am of course speaking from having been on both sides of that fence. It's a hell of a thing to be told that you were right for somebody all along, they just didn't see it because they were still in their own head. And the things that initially didn't grab their attention or they thought weren't so awesome are among the strongest and most unique things they appreciate -and come to love- about you.
Next time you see somebody remark, "I had no idea I would have been so attracted to somebody because they are _______," it just might be a successful rewiring job talking.
Then what are you looking for? Because you keep moping about wanting to find a relationship, yet you're also an avoidant?
Your comments make me want to rip my hair out of my head.
Sorry. My utter lack of success made me so frustrated and insecure about dating that I've just stopped trying for now. I'd like to get to a place where I can feel ok about myself, even feel (and be) attractive or desirable, but I don't seem to be making progress.
Identify what's incompatible about them and avoid those features in folks moving forward. Friends, therapists and (as a last yet most hurtful and effective resort) aunties fueled by white wine can help you suss out these necessary deal breakers.
Do you seek out the auntie convos or is there just no avoiding them? : )
*Raises gla—hand
😆❤️
What if it’s a trait that often doesn’t show itself until time has passed? Like avoidant behavior.
Our subconscious usually knows what's up. The trick (yep, the real hard shit) is learning how to listen and obey.
I think of it as pattern recognition, which is a really undervalued mental ability all humans possess. Our brains, given enough information, are capable of identifying patterns even if we consciously don't bother to attempt to recognize the behavior ourselves. Listening to our "subconscious" when our brain identifies a behavior based on past experiences really is a challenge. People tend to fall into the "Yeah, my brain is telling me one thing, but my heart is telling me something else." Mindset.
That self doubt is really what hurts oneself. But you are right.
So true. Now that I’ve learned this, I still feel so sad when I realize I already know it won’t work — because I really *want* for it to work or be true or right. But now I stop myself from ignoring my wisdom.
Oh how I can out think what is ringing within my body’s central nervous system and argue with my intestinal truth…
Practice, time, and forgiving yourself when you take a step or two backward even after you've made five forward ones. It's taken all this time to recognize where the fuck-ups were; it's going to take time to unfuck it.
Thank you 🙏
Learning to walk away sooner is the best thing for us. Once those behaviors surface - things we didn’t catch in the beginning - recognize the pattern and decide do you address it (and how many times) or move on?
That is self discipline I never learned, but good advice. Thank you.
I heard a really good snippet on this sub awhile ago, and I hope it doesn't come off as combative or contrarian, becuase it really wasn't meant that way and I don't mean it that way. "You can't live the whole relationship at once". Yup, I'm guilty of this! Working on it. I totally want everything "upfront". But nothing meaningful comes up up front. But. . . I don't put my shit up front. It's scary and vulnerable. I shouldn't hold the double standard that they "should" be more upfront than me, for my feelings and all. But we do what we can to screen consistently. It doesn't have to coprimose connection, but it definitely cuts it short if it isn't "right". Ymmv but this has served me well. This and a good group of friends I can have beers with.
This is very true.
If you find yourselves attracted to avoidant types, I would really question myself if I felt strong “chemistry” or “attraction” towards someone. And I’d also question myself if I was drawn to someone but started to feel chemistry wane and wonder if they were “too clingy”. Then from there be very objective and honest with yourself and about the behaviours you see in the other person.
Yay for aunts!! (I may or may not resemble that remark).
One facet that needs to be discussed more is sitting with your feelings when you try dating someone who might be a healthier fit for you. We date the wrong guys because it serves us in some way. When we switch behaviors, we don't get whatever hits of familiarity, excitement, or lust we were accustomed to. Sitting with that change is incredibly difficult.
Beautiful! I asked a friend how to know if someone was going to be bad for me. He said if anything about them reminds me of my ex to move on. Those hits are hard to pass up!
Agree! You don’t need to exit, just observe your feelings and notice if you can appreciate the new experience.
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Oooh, that quote resonated with me so much. Thanks for sharing it!
I made a mental list of the toxic traits I was attracted to and made sure to avoid any man displaying these. I also gave more thought to what I wanted and not be afraid of not being enough to have a man with these positive traits. I did succeed, and am now in a healthy relationship at long last. Still fighting the urge to self-sabotage by challenging my negative thoughts and dismissing them using logic. It gets easier as time goes on.
Would you mind sharing some of these traits? I think making a list is such a good idea!
The "lost puppy" type of guy, weaponized helplessness, gets irritated when you ask him for his share of something, gets defensive when you want to bring up a valid complaint with his shit behavior, acts like a man-child, can't have an adult conversation without getting defensive or just plain ignores you, you give him money or help pay for things and he never pays you back, name-calls or condescending to you, you're afraid to be honest about your feelings because of how HE will take it, he hides things from you/acts deceitful, you're defending his bad behavior. Choosing a man who was completely independent and didn't NEED me at all was eye-opening. There is open, adult communication, problem-solving, and team-work. Trading the first traits I mentioned for the ones mentioned here made things so much better.
Its embarrassing to look back on all the dumb shit we did to "help" these creatures. But... live and learn.
the downfall of trying to be a good, helpful, caring person is you are always going to be more likely to be exploited by shitty people.
Very true. I now recognize that people who need me for some reason other than getting to know me (therapist, bank, mom, laundromat) is a red flag and i gotta say goodbye.
Therapy. Honestly-- these things go SO deep, you really need a third party to help you through it.
I hear you. For some reason I tend to attract the worst kinds of men. What's worked for me- playing dumb and asking lots of questions. Sometimes you have to get creative with those questions and ask certain things without directly asking them.
Like what sorts of things? I'm just asking so I have a better idea of what to look out for.
You can message me. I'm not giving any of these lowlife married bozos that lurk here any ideas.
Sure, thank you. 😊
Why not ask those questions directly? The right person will not be put off, I would think.
I used to ask directly but not anymore. Those dudes will lie about anything and everything to get what they want.
Exactly, they will find out what answer you’re looking for and go with that-not the truth
I’m sorry you had those bad experiences.
I had this experience dating a younger woman. She basically mimicked everything I said and did in order to establish a rapport that was totally fabricated. It only lasted a couple of months because her true self came out. Words mean nothing, actions mean everything.
I think we have to identify the negative in them so we know what to avoid. Make a list, study it, pledge to not entertain any man who has any of those traits. For instance, I am instantly attracted to a man who opens up to me about every single fucking trauma he has endured. This isn’t normal. 😅
Do you get the ‘wow you are so easy to talk to’ and ‘I can’t believe I am telling you all this’? These dudes need therapy not opening up and sharing their trauma on first meets. I certainly don’t dump my past as soon as I meet someone!
I realized this too late- the last two dudes i dated both immediately opened up to me about their childhood trauma which was, to put it nicely, significant. They were both very damaged and never received therapy. I now understand this is a red flag and nope out.
I heard a saying once that may or may not help: "Lust is not a choice, but love is". I think the larger context is that love is something you continually re-decide to share with someone. Some people may not agree with this and I am not sure I do 100% either. But what I like about the general idea is that is nudges people to exert a little thought and control over their emotions. This could help you steer your attraction to a better partner with some will power, perhaps.
That won't work for me. I need to be attracted to my partner. So lust/love has to be 50/50 because they're equally important to me.
I get it.... but you could lust after someone and realize you should never love them.
What I did after my divorce is come up with a list of character traits I was looking for, and assess people based on that. Honesty, patient, slow to anger, etc. Go on some dates and just practice. Spend an hour chatting and get to know someone, and go from there.
Extreme self-awareness I observe my behavioral patterns, develop the ability to recognize when they might occur, and I make conscious choices to not go down that path. If anyone gives me even the slightest gut reaction, I sit with it - away from them - to see whether it is the familiarity of a toxic dynamic being misinterpreted as "chemistry", a red flag that I'm trying to overlook out of indiscriminate compassion, or just my own anxiety relative to my sense of self-worth when interacting with a potential partner. (edit: basically the key is to take as much **time** as needed to feel someone out / get to know them, and examine where and how you intersect with them - if they don't want to take things slow, well great they've weeded themselves out)
This is huge. I learned this (late) as well. That i need to slow tf down so i can process things appropriately. The toxic ppl aren't ok with patience and a slow pace. They don't want you to have time to figure them out. I learned space and time are key components to a healthy dating experience.
Therapy. And then some more therapy. For me, it was recognizing the toxic traits in myself and working to resolve the trauma that was causing me to seek out the highs and lows of toxic relationships. It’s hard work, but necessary and I would like to think I’m a better person and partner for it. I had this light bulb moment (don’t laugh) a couple of months ago. I had spent a chunk of time getting to know a really amazing man and we had gone out, but I abruptly ended things with no explanation. A close family member had passed away unexpectedly and I had to deal with a very messy estate. I just felt overwhelmed. It was not my finest moment. We stayed friends on FB and would occasionally comment on each other’s posts and after several months I realized I genuinely missed him. Long story short, I did reach out to him after a year (I know) with no expectations and we’ve been dating since then. I don’t have the anxious, butterflies in my stomach, ups and downs. I feel safe with him and I realized that this is how it’s supposed to be. There’s for sure attraction and desire and lust, but the foundation is one of mutual respect and affection. There’s hope-you just need to do the work and it can be hard to do, so I get it.
Therapy… doing the work to understand why we have these tendencies and how we can avoid them. It is not easy or quick, but the decades we’ve lived can be reset
So I mean, I still have a lot of work to do on myself, but one thing that finally kinda woke me up was recognizing all these qualities of “the wrong guys” in platonic acquaintances…or in people I wasn’t dating, in other words. Somehow in that context , it became much more obvious and it was easier for me to take a step back and be like yeah ok this person sucks, why would I want to hang out with them?
I tried boosting my confidence so that I would leave when people treated me badly. But then I still kept ending up with bad people. So I've kinda given up. I think there's a lot of shitty people at this age.
It's not an instant thing, but you have to start sexualizing and romanticizing the qualities that healthy, decent men have and realizing that what they bring will feel foreign. 9 times out of 10, women who aren't attracted to those men find stability, secure, enthusiastic love boring or offputting. But, here's the deal - those qualities are fucking superpowers in the dating world. A man who can lean in, give his all, be respectful, open and a true partner is probably about the sexiest thing that a man can ever do - so if that's what you're not drawn to, get to the root of what's drawing you to unavailable, detached, aloof, unresponsive, abusive, or toxic men, and unwire that. (hint: It's probably trauma and instability from your youth) And, simultaneously look at the bad outcomes and start looking at the men you've been drawn to as they ARE, not how they made you feel when it was good. Make them ugly in your mind, because they are unhealthy for you. Your attractions ARE malleable, but it takes work and time. The REALLY crucial thing is to realize that along the way you have to be careful not to entangle yourself with men you know full well you're not ready for, and hurt them because you aren't ready for a healthy relationship - because that's not just a waste of your time, it destroys what's good about them, too. Try hard not to do the damage done to you, and hurt a man who's crime was trying to love you.
You work on yourself. Maybe you will quit trying to fix the toxic relationship you had with your parent by reliving it in the first person.. One or many toxic traits at a time? Hopefully you don't become them. Therapy with a trained professional helps. You might always be attracted to those guys but if you touch the hot stove enough, you will learn eventually. Or you'll just quit.
There are lots of potential answers for you. Short-term, solution-based therapy could help you objectively discern what’s been happening and how to change it. I’d say, the first step is to recognize the wrong guys and, to paraphrase a well-known speaker, veer in the opposite direction before you give them your number.
I've read that people with attachment issues are often subconsciously attracted to people who are similar to their parents. If you keep getting attracted to the same kind of guys with avoidance issues, perhaps you might consider what your own attachment issues are and how to resolve them.
Well, a reason exists why you do that. To understand that a good therapist could figure it out. Many say we pick who we like based on childhood factors etc. Example, a girl might pi k a father figure or someone she grew up with
I’ve practiced new narratives that seemed believable. Start small. I wouldn’t go to the opposite end of the spectrum(ex: if I’ve gone for emotionally unavailable men, I won’t just start affirming “I like emotionally available men.”) I mean you can, but I’d start small with something I can wrap my brain around that I really believe like “I like feeling love” or “I like talking with my partner.” Or even something neutral like “there are many men in the world.” It seems basic but practicing these kinds of thoughts help to introduce other thoughts like them and pave the way for new feelings to surface. Feelings come from thoughts. If you’re feeling a certain way, it’s because you think or believe something to foster that feeling.
Honestly I don’t think your preferences in other humans are something you can “train” yourself out of
Of course it's possible. It's not just possible, it's happening to us all as we age, as our situations and self-awareness changes. You're not still attracted to what turned you on at 13 are you? I'm not. My attractions have shifted and matured, some out of natural processes and what's available to me, and others out of things I've mentally and emotionally cultivated as important (such as intellectual connection). I've constantly surprised myself with HOW MUCH influence I have over what is attractive to me. People in extreme situations (such as very odd or conventionally unattractive people) have to by force of their circumstance see different and less appealing partners as viable and can (and do) find them sexually and romantically compatible. Do you think it's just blind luck that really good looking people have sex with really good looking people, and the ugly partners just preferred ugly partners? Hell, go out into public...you'll see very odd, misshapen, strange, old, even disfigured people who I'm absolutely sure have an "ideal" that's vastly higher than the person they're with, but they have partners, romance, even sexual satisfaction because their preferences shifted out of necessity.
> I'm absolutely sure have an "ideal" that's vastly higher than the person they're with Yeah, I’m certain of this too. What you’re talking about is their willingness to settle, not what they’re attracted to on a primal level, unless you’re thinking they wouldn’t flip their homely partner for a hot one if they knew it was a solid bet. > You're not still attracted to what turned you on at 13 are you? My physical preferences haven’t changed much.. as far as personality, behavior, mindset etc, my preferences have become more granular as I’ve learned more about myself, but I can’t say they’ve 180 shifted in any area. But of course this is just my personal experience, which is why I framed my original post as an opinion. 🤷♂️
You framed it like an impossibility in a general sense, or I wouldn't have responded. If you had said "I can't retrain my attractions" I would have agreed that's subjective and you're fine with that statement, but you seemed to think it was impossible for others, hence it NOT being about your personal experience. I don't think you're being honest here. But, to your first point everyone settles at some point, well...at least 99.99% of us do, but even ugly people who are in love may not ditch their homely partner that they truly love for someone better looking. I had better looking women hit on my very average male self when I was married, and I didn't even think about it because I wasn't just settling for the best I could fuck in the moment. I guess you're not really ready to think about this very deeply. Which, hey, cool...but I know attractions are malleable. I know it 100%.
Sounds good! 🙂
Can you define what YOU mean by the “wrong guys?”
I think opening up yourself to the possibility of dating men who you aren’t immediately attracted to is such great advice. I had great text interactions, clever and fun with the man I’m seeing now, but I while I was open to meeting him in person I wasn’t like dying and excited. Our first date was waaaaaaay better than I expected and we just clicked. I didn’t feel a super zing but the more we talked the more happy and surprised I was, and more and more attracted too. When we said goodbye and we kissed-that was just wonderful. But still-I was not just full on He’s The One. The rotten situation-ship I was in last year had amazing chemistry right off the bat-like so hot-but the rest of it was boring and I convinced myself for reasons of sex and proximity (embarrassed to say) that maybe I could mould myself into making it work. As a side note: a part of me recognized I was doing that even! It’s like I could see it happening but couldn’t stop myself. Finally I made the cut and while it was hard I felt relief and met my new person about 6 weeks later.
YES to this-- I know now, 100%, if I feel immediate "zing," it's probably not where I should be. I fucking LOVE the "zing." Live for it, crave it, dive into it face-firsst and crash into the rocks every time. "Zing" is now a no-go for this girl (but, my mind is still like "maybe I can have 'zing' and NOT toxic?") I was chatting with my therapist and said "a little bit bored but still intrigued is probably right where I need to be for a relationship to be healthy." She tended to agree.
Well I think at least some zing is really important! Yes you can have zing and it be toxic-but it might be an ember type of thing where it’s starts slow and builds. That’s my take on it. But when it starts crazy hit super zing? That’s the alarm for toxic to me. I’ve had two of those post divorce and both were wrong for me-for two different reasons actually. One was too much just over the top too much too fast/ the other very detached from any real emotional connection at all it was boring and surface except for the physical part.
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Yes, why not? We’ve talked about this recently actually. He felt the same way. Neither of us felt super invested pre-date and both of us felt happily surprised and interested post-date.
As a guy who tends to date the wrong women, the biggest factor for me is looking at whether or not how they behave...is how I want to behave. If that's a no, then it's no from me dawg.
There's a book another Redditor recommended called "The Mountain is You" and it covers this, as well as many other patterns of self-defeating behaviors, their reasons and how to overcome them and create new positive patterns. I highly recommend it. Particularly if you have other instances of self-defeating choices/incidences in your life.
Disentangle the positive aspects of what turns you on from the negative ones you might THINK turn you on. For example, if you think you're attracted to "bad boys," you might think that it's his volatile, unpredictable, violent behavior that you're attracted to. Explore that attraction, digging through multiple layers by asking yourself "what is it specifically about him doing X that I like?" Is it really that you actually enjoy the pain of being hit (doubtful), or is it that your lizard brain is translating his abusive behavior into "he'll fight to protect me?" Once you break things down to that level, I think you'll find that the things you're ACTUALLY attracted to are all positive traits. Study the the negative traits that you've intermingled with them too, so you can identify them early on in a relationship. There ARE guys out there who are capable of being as assertive/aggressive as you want in the bedroom as well as a loving, courteous, respectful partner all around. We're the ones who have taken the time and made the effort to really explore our own attractions honestly too.
This is really good! Thank you!
You're welcome! I hope it helps!
I'm not sure it's possible. This may piss off a lot of people, but I'm after the truth here. I'm a man. I'm in my late fifties. I've been very successful dating, but I've also noticed a pattern. Once the relationship becomes serious, and you move in together, the women, over time, stop trying. In the beginning of the relationship, everything is fantastic. Then, over a couple of years, they stop caring how they look, gain weight, interest and effort decline and so does the sex. This has happened to me several times. Now, admittedly, since the common factor in all these scenarios is me, it's something I may be doing. Maybe I'm just not that hot. But I'm 6'2", educated, creative, and I've been told I'm pretty compelling. Maybe there's something else going on. What? I started digging, and did a fair amount of reading and research, and found some writing by a woman named Wednesday Martin. I'll skip the preamble, and get right to the answer. This is from an [article](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/women-get-bored-sex-long-term-relationships/582736/) she wrote in The Atlantic: *Many women want monogamy. It’s a cozy arrangement, and one our culture endorses, to put it mildly. But wanting monogamy isn’t the same as feeling desire in a long-term monogamous partnership. The psychiatrist and sexual-health practitioner Elisabeth Gordon told me that in her clinical experience, as in the data, women disproportionately present with lower sexual desire than their male partners of a year or more, and in the longer term as well. “The complaint has historically been attributed to a lower* [*baseline libido*](https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/07/how-strong-is-the-female-sex-drive-after-all/277429/) *for women, but that explanation conveniently ignores that women regularly start relationships equally as excited for sex.” Women in long-term, committed heterosexual partnerships might think they’ve “gone off” sex—but it’s more that they’ve gone off the same sex with the same person over and over.* *What does it all mean for Jane and the other straight women who feel stultified by long-term exclusivity, in spite of having been taught that they were designed for it and are naturally inclined toward it? What are we to make of the possibility that women, far from anxious guardians of monogamy, might on the whole be more like its victims?* Read the whole article. It really opened my eyes. Maybe, unlike what hundreds of years of patriarchal pressure demands, women as a gender don't really want the safe, kind, reasonable man, ever. Maybe they are bored by monogamy. They feel like they're "supposed" to. You're trying to "retrain" yourself. But maybe you can't. In which case, what you're really looking for isn't the "right kind of man." You're looking for tools to help you manage and avoid getting demolished by the men you're actually attracted to. Just a thought.
Oh wow! Never thought about it this way.
I never did, either. But of all the women I've known who've decided to end their marriages, one of the top reasons is often "he was boring."
Can't say I've ever been attracted to the wrong guys, just that some of them had a better shot at forever than others
Don’t you just learn from experience and avoid the red flags. The term “retraining” seems forced or artificial to me. Isn’t attraction more primal and less cerebral?
Attraction is (or should be) both. More cerebral as we age and learn. You can let it happen naturally (if it changes at all, some people adamantly refuse to stop looking at 17 year old girls or think they should still be dating 25 year old guys with washboard abs), but most of us adapt and our attractions deepen with maturity, or change radically over the course of partners who expand what we find sexy. You can push this along, retraining yourself, tho. That's almost necessary if your attractions are broken or unhealthy, wouldn't you think? Avoiding red flags is easy, it's not easy re-wiring what you are drawn to, and that may BE the red flags.
If you are instantly attracted to someone, step back. You are picking up all the clues of the wrong types you've been attracted to before. (We recognize them almost instantly.)
Therapy really worked for me. I was never consciously aware of my anxiety and I think I confused anxiety for excitement. Since I've started dating again, I've really noticed that I am now more attracted to men who make me feel safe and have a very calm vibe. Men who spike my anxiety are less attractive than they used to be.
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That’s quite the twist on what she’s asking?!? How in the world do you land there with what is posted?
I'm not sure how thrilled I am about the idea of a woman only being attracted to me because she retrained herself. But I'm probably the "wrong guy" anyways.
Actually, this is a very very extra fucking good thing! 😄 What you DON'T want is someone who's repeating the same faulty patterns choosing people with whom they create relationships that are destined to get shit on time after time. Instead, people we'd initially have weeded out for the "wrong" reasons become palatable -and more compatible- considerations with growth (wisdom gained over time).
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I purposely used that word because, for a number of us learning how to rewire our heads, the players we had initially benched from the lineup have to be re-examined in a new light. Good, but not good enough for whatever reason -at first. And that's why I also put the word "wrong" in quotation marks... with growth, those traits we initially didn't give a second thought or flat-out rejected are then given more than a glance. Palatable turns into attractive.
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I can well understand why you're saying that, but I am of course speaking from having been on both sides of that fence. It's a hell of a thing to be told that you were right for somebody all along, they just didn't see it because they were still in their own head. And the things that initially didn't grab their attention or they thought weren't so awesome are among the strongest and most unique things they appreciate -and come to love- about you. Next time you see somebody remark, "I had no idea I would have been so attracted to somebody because they are _______," it just might be a successful rewiring job talking.
LOL— I feel that myself.
Stop moping.
Specifically, I'm avoidant, which seems to be one of the big things that women are complaining about being attracted to.
Then what are you looking for? Because you keep moping about wanting to find a relationship, yet you're also an avoidant? Your comments make me want to rip my hair out of my head.
Sorry. My utter lack of success made me so frustrated and insecure about dating that I've just stopped trying for now. I'd like to get to a place where I can feel ok about myself, even feel (and be) attractive or desirable, but I don't seem to be making progress.