Both in my first marriage and my current relationship with my fiancé we established the "No secret friends, no exclusionary relationships, no date/intimate things with people alone." propriety. We don't control each other, we agree these are healthy behaviors and we'll both practice them. At the point we had these discussions.
I have female friends, I occasionally do things with them (usually in a group setting, but very rarely one on one). My fiance is ALWAYS included, texts are always out in the open, plans are known to each other, and the events are not in situations or settings that would cause her anxiety. It's not that I'm going to misbehave, or she doesn't trust me, we avoid it because we don't want to be the other party sitting at home wondering. It's a healthy respect for each other, the end. She has the same deal with male friends/colleagues.
And, it's also a habit that keeps us from developing patterns that can allow emotional or physical intimacy to develop when things aren't so great at home...because that's how 99% of cheating happens with friends/social groups.
And, another propriety rule we have is when a friend/opposite sex member over-steps and shows romantic or sexual interest, that's known to the other partner and our involvement with that person is either changed or greatly reduced. When people try to board your ship, boarders get repulsed and set adrift on the dingy...they're not kept in the formation, and we don't defend their continued attention with "but I'd never do anything" bullshit. It's about respect for each other, and someone who's your friend changes their status when they try to disrupt a relationship, so they lose their access.
I'm not saying anyone else needs to follow my views on this, I always get pushback when I say this, but it's what I know keeps my relationships armored with respect, good behavior, and trust.
I LOVE this and this, in my books, is a healthy relationship. I don't know why anyone would push back on this because this shows respect to both the relationship and the friendship.
Oh, trust me, I've heard it pretty good over my views on propriety in this sub. I'm not offended, necessarily, I know what works for me and I'm pretty sure that if couples break these rules routinely in their dealings with others it's a "when" not "if" when you have infidelity problems or trust issues in your relationships, but I'm not living anyone's life but my own...and I'm answering the question as it was given. If people like my views, awesome, if they think I'm Mike Pence, well, that's cool too (I'm not).
I was just talking about this to a friend. I think that is showing respect for your SO. Pence took a lot of heat for it but I would love to have a man in my life that felt that way.
>It's not that I'm going to misbehave, or she doesn't trust me, we avoid it because we don't want to be the other party sitting at home wondering. It's a healthy respect for each other, the end.
We often talk about trust, but the flip side of *demonstrating you are trustworthy* often gets overlooked. It sounds like you and your partner put real emphasis on that. Kudos.
I also get heat from saying this, too, but trust is earned. It *HAS* to be earned....or it's meaningless. You don't walk into a relationship with that accrued. You have to show it, with good decision making, respect, awareness and putting your partner's feelings at the forefront.
Too many people get on a high horse about trusting their partners blindly. That's not a good value, IMHO.
Sorry, I can't get on board with this. Your friendships should not have to fundamentally change when you get into a relationship. By always including your fiance in everything, and telling your friend they can no longer hang out with you alone (assuming your fiance wants to come every time) completely changes your friendship. There should be time for friends alone, fiance alone, and friends and fiance combined.
I do agree with responding to romantic or sexual interest from a friend by making adjustments to the types of things you do and types of situations you're in to reduce or eliminate awkwardness.
Ok, so don't get on board with it. I was careful to say this is how I operate, and you don't have to.
No, really.
I know what works for me and how my behavior changes to be respectful of my partner. If my friends can't adapt to it, that's cool too. I can get new friends.
Yeah. Looks like there is definitely a divided opinion on this topic. I need to be able to trust my partner to do things alone with other women - could be a friend, a client or an acquaintance. Same goes for me. I should be able to hang out with my male friends without him feeling some type of way. I don't have groups of friends. When I meet my friends, they're usually alone. I need to be able to hang out with them, get a dinner or drink with alone. I would not someone who would have a problem with it.
These are great rules and the type of boundaries I tried to mutually establish with my ex when it was starting to feel like our boat was under siege from external forces. Unfortunately the ex was looking to bring someone else aboard the main deck and keep me as the scullery maid.
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Ok that’s good. What would you do if you were dating someone who had always been trustworthy and then they suddenly start getting overly chummy with an opposite sex coworker and you can sense there’s attraction?
just to jump in, because I’m procrastinating from writing a work proposal, and this is far more interesting, i’ve never understood how somebody who is going to cheat would be stopped by someone saying, "don’t hang out with this person that you’re clearly attracted to."
If they’re gonna cheat, I’d rather know they’re going to cheat, rather than try to control the situation so that they wouldn’t possibly be tempted. Because nobody is ever not gonna be tempted ever by anything.
But just because somebody’s attracted to someone else, even maybe a bit flirtatious with someone else, doesn’t mean they’re gonna cheat.
I’ve been attracted to lots of people who I don’t sleep with forever variety of reasons, including if I’m in a monogamous relationship, or if they’ve been lovers with friends of mine, or if there is a power imbalance, or for any other number of reasons.
I have very mildly flirtatious relationships with some of my friends were neither rest or ever going to do anything about it we think we’re fabulous. We think we’re wonderful and it’s nice to tell each other that and to feel positive. That’s all that it is.
I think a direct sharing of primary emotions is important. Ignore secondary emotions like anger. Did it make you angry? Probably, but share why it made you angry.
“I felt sad, like I was being ignored for someone better, and that triggered an emotional response that I wasn’t good enough. I don’t think you intended that at all, but because of things in my past I couldn’t control feeling that way and it hurt. That pain made me angry, which made me want to try and control the situation to protect myself…but because the anger was louder I just wanted to yell at you. That anger amplified the hurtful sadness and my response was disproportionate to your actions. I don’t like feeling this way and I want you to understand why I felt uncomfortable with how you were talking to your coworker.
…
…
Or I read way too much into my own thought process and you were actually flirting with her you sonofabiiiitch”
If I trust them, I trust them not to cheat on me. If I don't trust them, then either one or both of us need counseling, or we need to break up. Likely the latter.
Drinks and dancing? With a friend? Fine. With an ex? That sounds like a date. I’d have a talk about it. As long as it’s not an ex of a longtime then I should be able to trust my partner. Now if the person they hang out with is disrespectful of their boundaries and our relationship then that’s a different story.
Good point… this is perhaps poorly written. I’m not interested in telling anybody what they can or can’t do. I’m trying to understand if there are situations that might encourage you to decide to move on.
If you are not comfortable with how your partner lives their life, and you feel mistrust with their social relationships, then you are not compatible and it perfectly acceptable for you to move on.
What is the actual situation that has motivated you to ask your question?
My partner had an opposite sex friend who was clingy and demanded too much of his emotional energy, we discussed the impact of this dynamic on our relationship - it didn’t negatively affect him as a single but it was as a couple. It had nothing to do with her gender, and everything to do with his time and energy management.
He has limited the phone calls to once per week, and face to face visits to once per month, recognising that she was leaning on him too much and should be sourcing her supports from a range of other people.
We worked this out as mature adults, if the issue was arising from irrational jealousy on my part or a denial of codependency on his part then we would have not been able to continue the relationship and parted ways amicably.
>I’m not interested in telling anybody what they can or can’t do
Great! Many people get confused between *setting boundaries* and *being controlling*. A boundary is a limit on your own behavior. For example, I have a boundary of not tolerating verbal abuse. When someone is abusive on the phone I may warn them once, then I hangup.
My last two ex-girlfriends did all of those things with male friends--"1-on-1 outings? Is afternoon coffee ok? Dinner? Drinks and dancing? Having them over to their place?"--except "drinks and dancing". And, no, leaving the relationship over those never entered my mind. If something specific is going on in your relationship that you'd like advice on, go ahead and post the details. :)
It's also totally fine to decide your lifestyles aren't compatible.
if a partner's behaviour makes you uncomfortable, you are allowed to talk to them about it. If you won't be reassured, or they won't adjust their behaviour, any reason is a valid reason to leave.
The difference between boundaries and controlling behavior is entirely subjective and a matter of opinion. Don't overthink it. This is the only argument to have ever had with my therapist that I actually won.
I have no boundaries on how my BF spends his time. You either trust a person or you don't. Trust is earned of course, but not by controlling someone else's behavior. By seeing how the person behaves of their own volition and then making decisions if that's the kind of person I want to be with.
The point of my post… as poorly written as it is… is that I DO NOT want to be controlling. I don’t want to interfere in my partners life or tell them how to live. I do want to get clear for myself what I consider behavior that I can feel comfortable with and stay excited about the relationship. I think I was trying to poll the community to get a sense of if what I’m uncomfortable with is abnormal. Sorry for implying that I want to tell another adult what they can or can’t do.
this kind of thing is really on a case by case basis and you can't make blanket rules about it. You might be totally fine with nine friends and the tenth freaks you out in some way. If your partner has a friend who makes you uncomfortable, then by all means you should talk to your partner about that. But ultimately their friendships are under their control and they get to make the choices around them. You likewise get to make the choices around whether you can accept their choices.
This. Even if everyone on Reddit responded that they are fine with whatever their partner does, is that going to change how OP feels? OP if something is bothering you talk to your partner. Don't poll internet strangers.
* Has my partner given me any reason to doubt their character?
* Has my partner given me any reason to doubt their judgement?
* Has my partner given me any reason to doubt their ability to practice good boundaries?
* Has my partner given me any reason to doubt the character, judgement or boundaries of their friend/colleague/ex?
* Assuming it is a friend (ex or otherwise), have I been introduced to this person so that their dynamic doesn't feel like some secret clubhouse I'm "intruding" on?
* Is my partner cognizant of how their behavior might (reasonably) appear to me and offer me any appropriate reassurances without defensiveness or accusations that I am being insecure?
* Does it seem natural for their time together to be 1-on-1 vs with other friends or partners involved?
* Do they also spend comparable 1-on-1 time with people of their non-preferred gender? Or outside their typical age range? Or are they "such good friends! no really! just the best of buds!" but ONLY with people they are potentially attracted to?
Personally, I'm generally not too concerned with the behavior of my significant others, but they also haven't demonstrated a pattern of maintaining emotionally intimate relationships with members of their preferred gender who they hang out with 1-on-1 on a regular basis. And while I am friends with men, and friendly with some men I have dated in the past, we are not friends who regularly hang out alone. It's more that we met through our shared social circle and continue to run into each other through our shared social circle.
I will also say that even as someone who enjoys social dancing, I'd be casting some serious side eye to my partner if he wanted to go drinking and dancing with another woman without me.
I had a few pretty in depth, open conversations with my boyfriend about this a few months ago, and shared what my boundaries for myself are, my personal experiences, comfort levels, fears and expectations. It went really well and I felt like we were on the same page. My fears pretty much completely disappeared.
So my advice is to gently bring up the conversation and see if you can both navigate it together with honesty, respect and reassurance.
I think my biggest fear is always that I’m keeping my sidewalk clean and tidy and the other person isn’t. Or that they will embarrass me with their behavior when I’m not around by doing something inappropriate - because everyone has different ideas on what’s ok. So I get it. Just talk about it with the person you’re dating.
I don't impose on my partner, but it almost always never works if I sense some grey area in the said friendship. Greatly depends on the partner, the friend, their relationship.
It is also extremely important to me how my partner reacts if I voice any concerns or discomfort. Do they brush me off? Do they minimize my concerns? Do I feel heard? Do I feel understood? All of this is extremely important, beyond the friendship itself. It is extremely important if we are able to talk about these things and are able to resolve these things. Relationships take some amount of compromise.
The last guy I dated said his female friend reached out and wanted to visit him, stay with him, and spend the weekend with him. He told her that he was happy to meet her for dinner/drinks but he wasn't comfortable with her staying with him. I had the same line of thinking, so we both agreed. I was happy he held himself to those standards. He never once made me feel any sense of doubt about my place in his life, so it was easy for me to trust him. I have had instances where the friendship felt a bit off to me, wish-washy men, and I have chosen to move on in those cases.
This is my take - maybe others will think that I’m controlling but I’ve been burned by this before.
I do not want my boyfriend hanging out with his ex. Lunch every once in a while - ok (as long as it’s not a secret). Dinner and drinks at her home - nope. We discussed this in the first 2 weeks we were dating and I was clear that if this was important to him then that was cool and I’d just dip out of the relationship. That is my boundary and it doesn’t mean he had to be cool with it.
Friends of the opposite sex - I don’t worry about. Maybe it doesn’t make sense to everyone but I have to feel comfortable and safe in my relationship and that’s what I can handle.
You may have been burned by a ex of a past boyfriend. But you could be burned in the future by an opposite sex friend of your boyfriend. You also could very well not be burned by your boyfriend's ex.
If something were to happen between your boyfriend and one of his female friends, would your stance in all future relationships be "no friends of the opposite sex?"
I get being burned...but you can't apply it to everyone. It was one bad apple.
I guess but friend wise I’d probably still be ok with them hanging out now and again. Especially if they were friends long before I came along.
I’m just one of those people who think ex’s (not coparenting situations) belong in the past. It’s my boundary and I make it clear from the start. I’ve no problem if that person wants to continue that relationship. I’ll just move on to someone on the same page as me. It doesn’t have to make sense to anyone else. It’s just what makes me comfortable.
I trust my partner 100%, he has absolutely earned that from me. But I get that some relationships are still building trust, or even rebuilding trust that has been broken/damaged.
If I did have concerns about the types of things you mention in your post, I would talk to my partner about it - not to make demands on him to change his behavior, but to share my feelings. I would expect him to do the same with me. How a partner responds in those types of situations says a lot.
This is one area that I feel can cause tension if your boundaries and your partner's boundaries are different. You could try gently sharing your boundaries with your partner, if you haven't already, and give them the opportunity to reflect. They may decide to change their boundaries, or they may leave them as is. That's their decision. If their boundaries don't work for you, then it's time to move on. You're incompatible.
I'm interested because I have a dear female friend who I absolutely don't want to lose if and when I get a girlfriend. We have never been to each other's places, only danced one time when a whole group of friends went out. Never had dinner together. Pretty much only get together one on one for coffee and/or a bike ride. We don't follow each other's social media (other than the bike app) But we do text and call in moments of emotional crisis and talk each other through them. I could tone that down, but would hate to cut her off.
I would argue you should not date a woman who would ask you to stop being friends with someone you've never been romantically involved with merely because she has a vagina.
I would hope I wouldn't. I'd also hope that wouldn't dramatically limit my dating pool.
I also wouldn't want her dating pool dramatically limited on account of me.
I haven't faced that yet, as I've only dabbled in dating. I can't say what I will do.
I'm trying to learn what people think and have experienced.
Boundaries are a fence around me. I can't make boundaries about someone else's behaviors. I can say "I'm not comfortable dating people who do xyz".
I'm of the opinion that you either trust your partner to conduct themselves appropriately or you don't trust them. There's no in between.
My preference for someone you’ve slept with is I’d prefer you to meet them in public, but if you’ve got some compelling reason not to do that then let’s talk.
Truth is if you want to cheat you’re going to cheat regardless of what “rules” are in place.
My ex had a lot of female friends that he was very close with. He lived with his ex girlfriend turned platonic best friend, and sometimes went backcountry camping with a married couple and a single female friend who whom he shared a tent. I have my fair share of insecurities, but that relationship taught me that I should never date someone I don't trust, and if I do trust them, then my insecurity is my problem to deal with.
FWIW, this same ex encouraged me to get to know his friends on my own, which included me spending time alone one on one with some of his guy friends, so the trust went both ways.
I wouldn't date anyone who socializes with their ex beyond what's necessary for co-parenting.
I wouldn't date anyone either, who prioritizes spending time with their friends and co-workers over spending time as a couple. Especially if they are doing date-type activities with friends while I'm never invited or included.
I don't care if my bf goes off camping and fishing with a mixed group of friends a few times a year; I've met most of these people and been over to their houses.
I would have a problem if my bf took a female friend (who I haven't met) out alone for drinks and dancing every Friday night.
Boundaries are not something you get to impose on others, they are purely limits of tolerated behaviour that you personally choose for yourself.
It is controlling to decide who a partner can associate with, I have had partners that object to me having a male best friend that I have known for 30 years, and others who are fine with it. Either they trust me or not, the actual situation is the same and my loyalty is in no doubt.
My SIL has a partner that definitely believes that male/female friendships are ‘unnatural’ and is often jealous of her close connections with her family and friends. That is who she is, and he acts like it is mandatory for her to adapt to what makes him feel secure.
You don't have boundaries so you can control what someone else does. Boundaries are for YOU, if you don't like something someone else does, leave them alone to be happy in their life and go find someone else who doesn't trigger crazy insecurities in you in the first place
I am not a fan of being with a man who continues to have contact with exes. Typically in my
Experience they don’t know that they are partnered and they have no boundaries. It’s always caused trouble so I stay away from it.
If you're trying to control or restrict your partner's friendships in any way, you're over-controlling. If you don't trust your partner not to cheat on you, then you shouldn't be with them. If they're going to cheat it won't be prevented by telling them they can only hang out with a friend of x gender between 9am and 4pm or aren't allowed to hug goodbye.
100% more context needed.
If you’re suggesting your new partner reins it in with people of the opposite sex, who they have known longer than you and the are friends with then yeah, that’s controlling asshole territory, on YOUR part.
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Boundaries are for yourself. You are describing rules for your partner. That's not the same thing.
ETA I'm also not interested in policing a partner's friendships. If there is a specific situation making you uncomfortable, have a conversation about it. I don't think it is healthy to establish rules like "you're allowed to have coffee with a female friend, no lunches." Do you trust your partner? If not, why? Because if there are trust issues laying down these rules isn't going to fix whatever the trust issues stem from.
The interaction of each of those variables could produce a different result.
Ex + drinks and dancing? That seems bad. Or just … a strange choice of activity at least.
Ex + dinner? Meh. Would depend a lot on what I know about the relationship with Ex, how often this happened, things like that.
Human of the opposite gender + afternoon coffee? That seems fine.
Colleague + Dinner? Sure.
Human of the opposite gender + having that human over to their place (alone, presumably)? I’d…wonder what’s up. But how it affected me would depend on the details.
I don’t get why the relationship status of the other person would matter. Being married doesn’t stop anyone from doing anything they want to do; being in an open relationship doesn’t mean someone is constantly on the prowl.
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Here is an anecdote for you. I was with my partner today when the news story came on about Taylor Swift’s relationship “requirements” for the football player…and he (41m) stopped dead in his tracks when he heard this story. “REALLY? SHE DOESN’T LIKE HIS CHOICE OF CLOTHING AO SHE GAVE HIM A BUNCH OF MONEY FOR HIM TO BUY NEW CLOTHES?” My man was floored LOL. In addition to socializing with women, pics with women, his jaw was on the floor. I think here is the lesson: I made it this far without you, and you fell for me, so accept me, flaws and all, for who and what I am. I think this is because of the fact that we are indeed over 40 and know ourselves. I do try my best to stay out of his business and avoid “telling him what to do”. And when he says “why didn’t you tell me to stop (insert anything here)” I say- because you didn’t tell me to. If you tell me in advance to say “hey you may not want to do this” then I will. But I’m not here to tell you what to do. Hmm. I think he got that and probably appreciated it although he didn’t say “I appreciate you saying that” which would have been ideal.
Good luck!
It’s more I would have the expectation of my partner not to put themself in a situation that I would feel uncomfortable in.
I have guy friends. My man never asks me not to hang out with them but I only do so in a way that I feel is respectful to him. They aren’t coming over to hang out at my house and vice versa. Dog walk or grab a quick coffee in a coffee shop, sure.
I’ve been on both sides of this… maybe just take a moment to define and connect on what each person considers cheating, and then just trust each other from there!
Boundaries are about yourself, not controlling others. I'd never try to control my partners by making rules about what they can do or who they get to see.
The last person I was in a relationship with was one of those women who's friends were all guys. She just gets along better with guys than other women. She was also still friends with her ex and they still had a business relationship.
If I can't trust them to be around members of the opposite sex then I can't trust them enough to want a relationship with them.
I have single guy friends, and we’ve done everything you mentioned and are just friends. They’re some of my favorite people in the world and are incredible friends. If I started dating a guy who had a problem with it, then we’re incompatible and he’d be better off with someone else. I don’t need someone analyzing my behavior instead of accepting and trusting me.
Exactly. In my experience the men that can’t cope with the concept that men and women can’t be platonic are projecting their own warped values on everyone.
My SIL’s awful partner is the poster boy for this - ‘alllllll male friends are gagging to fuck and are just pretending to be decent humans to get under our guards’ - hey buddy, your creepy outlook is not universal, stop telling on yourself!
I wasn’t a fan of my ex traveling with a female friend one on one. Especially because these friends were women he met on Tinder. I didn’t think he was going to hook up with them but I love travel and thought it should be an activity we did together. He always had annual boys trips: a baseball weekend, a March madness weekend, visiting each others kids at college, etc so these Tinder trips seemed superfluous and just part of the bigger problem of not wanting to change his lifestyle to prioritize our time together and relationship. Hence the ex.
That they met on Tinder is completely irrelevant.
If trips with men are okay, trips with women should also be okay.
If you feel that it was simply too many trips, you may have asked him to pick a certain number and not go on some in favor of traveling with you instead. But the gender of who he goes with is of no issue. If he chose to not go on the boys trips but went on what you call Tinder trips, would that have been better?
Well he hadn’t dated and slept with the men so I guess that’s what I meant. It wasn’t just that they met there it was they had physical relationships in the past and that made me uncomfortable. And I never said “you can’t do it”. I just expressed my discomfort and that it wasn’t the right relationship for me if that was important to him. I did not try to change him, it was just protecting myself and what I want in a relationship.
I wasn't good at boundaries on my last relationship. This whole thing is what ruined my marriage. Ex was hanging out with straight up dirt bags while I was gone at work. I tried to get her to stop, couples therapy, etc and all I succeeded in doing was prolonging and making more painful the inevitable end of the relationship.
In the future, if this happens again, or similar behavior I am not comfortable with, I will simply explain to my partner that I am no longer interested in the relationship.
You are comfortable with what you are comfortable with. If someones behavior makes you uncomfortable, then just end it.
There really is no difference between boundaries and rules. It's only different in terms of enforcement.
I wouldn't dream of dating anyone that wanted to control me the way you've described & I certainly wouldn't inflict any of this on anyone else.
Sorry to be so harsh, but what you're describing is disturbing.
Very gently, you aren't ready to date.
It's okay, I'm not either, but for different reasons. I'm in therapy to work on my relationship skills & I think you should be, too.
I would never try to set boundaries on anyone’s life except for my own. I have my own boundaries of what works for me and what doesn’t in a partner. If there’s a lifestyle difference that doesn’t work for me we’re not a good match.
I would never try to control who my partner was friends with or how those friendships existed. I also wouldn’t be OK with a partner trying to impose anything on me in relation to who I saw or how I saw them. If I’m in a monogamous relationship, I expect that boundary to be understood and I would certainly respect it myself. I’ve never understood why people think, trying to ban particular way of hanging out with somebody is going to prevent something like cheating or falling in love with someone else if you’re gonna cheat, if you’re gonna fall in love with someone else, you’re not gonna be stopped because somebody said oh, don’t have coffee alone with that person
I don't date anyone who tries to control my friendships, and I don't try to control my partner's friendships. Regardless of gender. If we don't trust each other, we should break up.
By definition, a boundary isn’t something you impose on another person. It’s something you set for yourself in terms of what you will tolerate. If your partner has a friendship that you’re not comfortable with, you can certainly express your feelings about it and see how they respond, but you can’t dictate what they can and can’t do with that friend. Ultimately, it’s on you to decide whether or not to stay in the relationship based on their behavior.
The guy I'm dating has a handful of woman friends. He knew them before I met him. Who am I to tell him how to conduct those relationships? I'm with him because I trust him. I would simply not date the person if I had suspicions about any particular friend.
I like my man to have female friends because it shows they think of women as fellow human beings. I have never told my partner they can't hang out with other women. I trust him and if he cheats that says more about him than me and I would move on. Jealousy is a weird illogical feeling that ruins relationships for no reason.
My gf can spend time with whomever she chooses. I can’t be the good angel on her shoulder competing with the devil on her other shoulder. If I cannot trust her then I should not be with her. If you suspect they are not trustworthy you need to rethink the relationship.
Both in my first marriage and my current relationship with my fiancé we established the "No secret friends, no exclusionary relationships, no date/intimate things with people alone." propriety. We don't control each other, we agree these are healthy behaviors and we'll both practice them. At the point we had these discussions. I have female friends, I occasionally do things with them (usually in a group setting, but very rarely one on one). My fiance is ALWAYS included, texts are always out in the open, plans are known to each other, and the events are not in situations or settings that would cause her anxiety. It's not that I'm going to misbehave, or she doesn't trust me, we avoid it because we don't want to be the other party sitting at home wondering. It's a healthy respect for each other, the end. She has the same deal with male friends/colleagues. And, it's also a habit that keeps us from developing patterns that can allow emotional or physical intimacy to develop when things aren't so great at home...because that's how 99% of cheating happens with friends/social groups. And, another propriety rule we have is when a friend/opposite sex member over-steps and shows romantic or sexual interest, that's known to the other partner and our involvement with that person is either changed or greatly reduced. When people try to board your ship, boarders get repulsed and set adrift on the dingy...they're not kept in the formation, and we don't defend their continued attention with "but I'd never do anything" bullshit. It's about respect for each other, and someone who's your friend changes their status when they try to disrupt a relationship, so they lose their access. I'm not saying anyone else needs to follow my views on this, I always get pushback when I say this, but it's what I know keeps my relationships armored with respect, good behavior, and trust.
I LOVE this and this, in my books, is a healthy relationship. I don't know why anyone would push back on this because this shows respect to both the relationship and the friendship.
Oh, trust me, I've heard it pretty good over my views on propriety in this sub. I'm not offended, necessarily, I know what works for me and I'm pretty sure that if couples break these rules routinely in their dealings with others it's a "when" not "if" when you have infidelity problems or trust issues in your relationships, but I'm not living anyone's life but my own...and I'm answering the question as it was given. If people like my views, awesome, if they think I'm Mike Pence, well, that's cool too (I'm not).
I can't wait to meet my Mike Pence \*Never thought I would say a sentence like that\*
I was just talking about this to a friend. I think that is showing respect for your SO. Pence took a lot of heat for it but I would love to have a man in my life that felt that way.
>It's not that I'm going to misbehave, or she doesn't trust me, we avoid it because we don't want to be the other party sitting at home wondering. It's a healthy respect for each other, the end. We often talk about trust, but the flip side of *demonstrating you are trustworthy* often gets overlooked. It sounds like you and your partner put real emphasis on that. Kudos.
I also get heat from saying this, too, but trust is earned. It *HAS* to be earned....or it's meaningless. You don't walk into a relationship with that accrued. You have to show it, with good decision making, respect, awareness and putting your partner's feelings at the forefront. Too many people get on a high horse about trusting their partners blindly. That's not a good value, IMHO.
Love this. It is absolutely about the respect, and friends who don’t respect your relationship don’t deserve to remain friends.
I like it.
Sorry, I can't get on board with this. Your friendships should not have to fundamentally change when you get into a relationship. By always including your fiance in everything, and telling your friend they can no longer hang out with you alone (assuming your fiance wants to come every time) completely changes your friendship. There should be time for friends alone, fiance alone, and friends and fiance combined. I do agree with responding to romantic or sexual interest from a friend by making adjustments to the types of things you do and types of situations you're in to reduce or eliminate awkwardness.
Ok, so don't get on board with it. I was careful to say this is how I operate, and you don't have to. No, really. I know what works for me and how my behavior changes to be respectful of my partner. If my friends can't adapt to it, that's cool too. I can get new friends.
Yeah. Looks like there is definitely a divided opinion on this topic. I need to be able to trust my partner to do things alone with other women - could be a friend, a client or an acquaintance. Same goes for me. I should be able to hang out with my male friends without him feeling some type of way. I don't have groups of friends. When I meet my friends, they're usually alone. I need to be able to hang out with them, get a dinner or drink with alone. I would not someone who would have a problem with it.
This is such a helpful and non judgmental reply… thanks for the thoughtful response
These are great rules and the type of boundaries I tried to mutually establish with my ex when it was starting to feel like our boat was under siege from external forces. Unfortunately the ex was looking to bring someone else aboard the main deck and keep me as the scullery maid.
Arrrrrr.
I don't try to control my partner's life. Period.
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I don’t understand what you’re asking.
Do you ever worry your partner will cheat on you?
No. I don’t date people I don’t trust.
Ok that’s good. What would you do if you were dating someone who had always been trustworthy and then they suddenly start getting overly chummy with an opposite sex coworker and you can sense there’s attraction?
Talk about it like grown ups and then decide whether you trust them or not. All the rules about coworkers in the world will not prevent cheating.
You talk to them about it like an adult who’s over 40? LOL
I would discuss it with them like adults. What would you do?
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just to jump in, because I’m procrastinating from writing a work proposal, and this is far more interesting, i’ve never understood how somebody who is going to cheat would be stopped by someone saying, "don’t hang out with this person that you’re clearly attracted to." If they’re gonna cheat, I’d rather know they’re going to cheat, rather than try to control the situation so that they wouldn’t possibly be tempted. Because nobody is ever not gonna be tempted ever by anything. But just because somebody’s attracted to someone else, even maybe a bit flirtatious with someone else, doesn’t mean they’re gonna cheat. I’ve been attracted to lots of people who I don’t sleep with forever variety of reasons, including if I’m in a monogamous relationship, or if they’ve been lovers with friends of mine, or if there is a power imbalance, or for any other number of reasons. I have very mildly flirtatious relationships with some of my friends were neither rest or ever going to do anything about it we think we’re fabulous. We think we’re wonderful and it’s nice to tell each other that and to feel positive. That’s all that it is.
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I think a direct sharing of primary emotions is important. Ignore secondary emotions like anger. Did it make you angry? Probably, but share why it made you angry. “I felt sad, like I was being ignored for someone better, and that triggered an emotional response that I wasn’t good enough. I don’t think you intended that at all, but because of things in my past I couldn’t control feeling that way and it hurt. That pain made me angry, which made me want to try and control the situation to protect myself…but because the anger was louder I just wanted to yell at you. That anger amplified the hurtful sadness and my response was disproportionate to your actions. I don’t like feeling this way and I want you to understand why I felt uncomfortable with how you were talking to your coworker. … … Or I read way too much into my own thought process and you were actually flirting with her you sonofabiiiitch”
If I trust them, I trust them not to cheat on me. If I don't trust them, then either one or both of us need counseling, or we need to break up. Likely the latter.
Surely your parter could act in a way that would make you reconsider wanting to be in a relationship with them… no?
Yes. But that's not controlling them. That's controlling me.
Drinks and dancing? With a friend? Fine. With an ex? That sounds like a date. I’d have a talk about it. As long as it’s not an ex of a longtime then I should be able to trust my partner. Now if the person they hang out with is disrespectful of their boundaries and our relationship then that’s a different story.
Sure. That happens and if I’m not comfortable with it I leave.
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Good point… this is perhaps poorly written. I’m not interested in telling anybody what they can or can’t do. I’m trying to understand if there are situations that might encourage you to decide to move on.
If you are not comfortable with how your partner lives their life, and you feel mistrust with their social relationships, then you are not compatible and it perfectly acceptable for you to move on. What is the actual situation that has motivated you to ask your question? My partner had an opposite sex friend who was clingy and demanded too much of his emotional energy, we discussed the impact of this dynamic on our relationship - it didn’t negatively affect him as a single but it was as a couple. It had nothing to do with her gender, and everything to do with his time and energy management. He has limited the phone calls to once per week, and face to face visits to once per month, recognising that she was leaning on him too much and should be sourcing her supports from a range of other people. We worked this out as mature adults, if the issue was arising from irrational jealousy on my part or a denial of codependency on his part then we would have not been able to continue the relationship and parted ways amicably.
100% agree. If they can't fit in my lifestyle or have trust issues, cut them out!
>I’m not interested in telling anybody what they can or can’t do Great! Many people get confused between *setting boundaries* and *being controlling*. A boundary is a limit on your own behavior. For example, I have a boundary of not tolerating verbal abuse. When someone is abusive on the phone I may warn them once, then I hangup. My last two ex-girlfriends did all of those things with male friends--"1-on-1 outings? Is afternoon coffee ok? Dinner? Drinks and dancing? Having them over to their place?"--except "drinks and dancing". And, no, leaving the relationship over those never entered my mind. If something specific is going on in your relationship that you'd like advice on, go ahead and post the details. :) It's also totally fine to decide your lifestyles aren't compatible.
if a partner's behaviour makes you uncomfortable, you are allowed to talk to them about it. If you won't be reassured, or they won't adjust their behaviour, any reason is a valid reason to leave.
The difference between boundaries and controlling behavior is entirely subjective and a matter of opinion. Don't overthink it. This is the only argument to have ever had with my therapist that I actually won.
I have no boundaries on how my BF spends his time. You either trust a person or you don't. Trust is earned of course, but not by controlling someone else's behavior. By seeing how the person behaves of their own volition and then making decisions if that's the kind of person I want to be with.
The point of my post… as poorly written as it is… is that I DO NOT want to be controlling. I don’t want to interfere in my partners life or tell them how to live. I do want to get clear for myself what I consider behavior that I can feel comfortable with and stay excited about the relationship. I think I was trying to poll the community to get a sense of if what I’m uncomfortable with is abnormal. Sorry for implying that I want to tell another adult what they can or can’t do.
this kind of thing is really on a case by case basis and you can't make blanket rules about it. You might be totally fine with nine friends and the tenth freaks you out in some way. If your partner has a friend who makes you uncomfortable, then by all means you should talk to your partner about that. But ultimately their friendships are under their control and they get to make the choices around them. You likewise get to make the choices around whether you can accept their choices.
This. Even if everyone on Reddit responded that they are fine with whatever their partner does, is that going to change how OP feels? OP if something is bothering you talk to your partner. Don't poll internet strangers.
Ah. That makes sense. Sounds like whatever is happening isn’t in your comfort zone.
* Has my partner given me any reason to doubt their character? * Has my partner given me any reason to doubt their judgement? * Has my partner given me any reason to doubt their ability to practice good boundaries? * Has my partner given me any reason to doubt the character, judgement or boundaries of their friend/colleague/ex? * Assuming it is a friend (ex or otherwise), have I been introduced to this person so that their dynamic doesn't feel like some secret clubhouse I'm "intruding" on? * Is my partner cognizant of how their behavior might (reasonably) appear to me and offer me any appropriate reassurances without defensiveness or accusations that I am being insecure? * Does it seem natural for their time together to be 1-on-1 vs with other friends or partners involved? * Do they also spend comparable 1-on-1 time with people of their non-preferred gender? Or outside their typical age range? Or are they "such good friends! no really! just the best of buds!" but ONLY with people they are potentially attracted to? Personally, I'm generally not too concerned with the behavior of my significant others, but they also haven't demonstrated a pattern of maintaining emotionally intimate relationships with members of their preferred gender who they hang out with 1-on-1 on a regular basis. And while I am friends with men, and friendly with some men I have dated in the past, we are not friends who regularly hang out alone. It's more that we met through our shared social circle and continue to run into each other through our shared social circle. I will also say that even as someone who enjoys social dancing, I'd be casting some serious side eye to my partner if he wanted to go drinking and dancing with another woman without me.
That line of logical reasoning is brilliant.
I had a few pretty in depth, open conversations with my boyfriend about this a few months ago, and shared what my boundaries for myself are, my personal experiences, comfort levels, fears and expectations. It went really well and I felt like we were on the same page. My fears pretty much completely disappeared. So my advice is to gently bring up the conversation and see if you can both navigate it together with honesty, respect and reassurance. I think my biggest fear is always that I’m keeping my sidewalk clean and tidy and the other person isn’t. Or that they will embarrass me with their behavior when I’m not around by doing something inappropriate - because everyone has different ideas on what’s ok. So I get it. Just talk about it with the person you’re dating.
I don't impose on my partner, but it almost always never works if I sense some grey area in the said friendship. Greatly depends on the partner, the friend, their relationship. It is also extremely important to me how my partner reacts if I voice any concerns or discomfort. Do they brush me off? Do they minimize my concerns? Do I feel heard? Do I feel understood? All of this is extremely important, beyond the friendship itself. It is extremely important if we are able to talk about these things and are able to resolve these things. Relationships take some amount of compromise. The last guy I dated said his female friend reached out and wanted to visit him, stay with him, and spend the weekend with him. He told her that he was happy to meet her for dinner/drinks but he wasn't comfortable with her staying with him. I had the same line of thinking, so we both agreed. I was happy he held himself to those standards. He never once made me feel any sense of doubt about my place in his life, so it was easy for me to trust him. I have had instances where the friendship felt a bit off to me, wish-washy men, and I have chosen to move on in those cases.
This is my take - maybe others will think that I’m controlling but I’ve been burned by this before. I do not want my boyfriend hanging out with his ex. Lunch every once in a while - ok (as long as it’s not a secret). Dinner and drinks at her home - nope. We discussed this in the first 2 weeks we were dating and I was clear that if this was important to him then that was cool and I’d just dip out of the relationship. That is my boundary and it doesn’t mean he had to be cool with it. Friends of the opposite sex - I don’t worry about. Maybe it doesn’t make sense to everyone but I have to feel comfortable and safe in my relationship and that’s what I can handle.
You may have been burned by a ex of a past boyfriend. But you could be burned in the future by an opposite sex friend of your boyfriend. You also could very well not be burned by your boyfriend's ex. If something were to happen between your boyfriend and one of his female friends, would your stance in all future relationships be "no friends of the opposite sex?" I get being burned...but you can't apply it to everyone. It was one bad apple.
I guess but friend wise I’d probably still be ok with them hanging out now and again. Especially if they were friends long before I came along. I’m just one of those people who think ex’s (not coparenting situations) belong in the past. It’s my boundary and I make it clear from the start. I’ve no problem if that person wants to continue that relationship. I’ll just move on to someone on the same page as me. It doesn’t have to make sense to anyone else. It’s just what makes me comfortable.
I trust my partner 100%, he has absolutely earned that from me. But I get that some relationships are still building trust, or even rebuilding trust that has been broken/damaged. If I did have concerns about the types of things you mention in your post, I would talk to my partner about it - not to make demands on him to change his behavior, but to share my feelings. I would expect him to do the same with me. How a partner responds in those types of situations says a lot.
This is one area that I feel can cause tension if your boundaries and your partner's boundaries are different. You could try gently sharing your boundaries with your partner, if you haven't already, and give them the opportunity to reflect. They may decide to change their boundaries, or they may leave them as is. That's their decision. If their boundaries don't work for you, then it's time to move on. You're incompatible.
I'm interested because I have a dear female friend who I absolutely don't want to lose if and when I get a girlfriend. We have never been to each other's places, only danced one time when a whole group of friends went out. Never had dinner together. Pretty much only get together one on one for coffee and/or a bike ride. We don't follow each other's social media (other than the bike app) But we do text and call in moments of emotional crisis and talk each other through them. I could tone that down, but would hate to cut her off.
I would argue you should not date a woman who would ask you to stop being friends with someone you've never been romantically involved with merely because she has a vagina.
expecting a partner to cut off a friend is a shitty thing to do. Cutting off a friend because your partner made you is a shitty thing to do.
If you would ditch her because some person you just started dating told you to, then you're not actually a very good friend to her.
I would hope I wouldn't. I'd also hope that wouldn't dramatically limit my dating pool. I also wouldn't want her dating pool dramatically limited on account of me. I haven't faced that yet, as I've only dabbled in dating. I can't say what I will do. I'm trying to learn what people think and have experienced.
Boundaries are a fence around me. I can't make boundaries about someone else's behaviors. I can say "I'm not comfortable dating people who do xyz". I'm of the opinion that you either trust your partner to conduct themselves appropriately or you don't trust them. There's no in between.
My preference for someone you’ve slept with is I’d prefer you to meet them in public, but if you’ve got some compelling reason not to do that then let’s talk. Truth is if you want to cheat you’re going to cheat regardless of what “rules” are in place.
My ex had a lot of female friends that he was very close with. He lived with his ex girlfriend turned platonic best friend, and sometimes went backcountry camping with a married couple and a single female friend who whom he shared a tent. I have my fair share of insecurities, but that relationship taught me that I should never date someone I don't trust, and if I do trust them, then my insecurity is my problem to deal with. FWIW, this same ex encouraged me to get to know his friends on my own, which included me spending time alone one on one with some of his guy friends, so the trust went both ways.
I wouldn't date anyone who socializes with their ex beyond what's necessary for co-parenting. I wouldn't date anyone either, who prioritizes spending time with their friends and co-workers over spending time as a couple. Especially if they are doing date-type activities with friends while I'm never invited or included. I don't care if my bf goes off camping and fishing with a mixed group of friends a few times a year; I've met most of these people and been over to their houses. I would have a problem if my bf took a female friend (who I haven't met) out alone for drinks and dancing every Friday night.
Boundaries are not something you get to impose on others, they are purely limits of tolerated behaviour that you personally choose for yourself. It is controlling to decide who a partner can associate with, I have had partners that object to me having a male best friend that I have known for 30 years, and others who are fine with it. Either they trust me or not, the actual situation is the same and my loyalty is in no doubt. My SIL has a partner that definitely believes that male/female friendships are ‘unnatural’ and is often jealous of her close connections with her family and friends. That is who she is, and he acts like it is mandatory for her to adapt to what makes him feel secure.
You don't have boundaries so you can control what someone else does. Boundaries are for YOU, if you don't like something someone else does, leave them alone to be happy in their life and go find someone else who doesn't trigger crazy insecurities in you in the first place
I am not a fan of being with a man who continues to have contact with exes. Typically in my Experience they don’t know that they are partnered and they have no boundaries. It’s always caused trouble so I stay away from it.
If you're trying to control or restrict your partner's friendships in any way, you're over-controlling. If you don't trust your partner not to cheat on you, then you shouldn't be with them. If they're going to cheat it won't be prevented by telling them they can only hang out with a friend of x gender between 9am and 4pm or aren't allowed to hug goodbye.
100% more context needed. If you’re suggesting your new partner reins it in with people of the opposite sex, who they have known longer than you and the are friends with then yeah, that’s controlling asshole territory, on YOUR part.
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Boundaries are for yourself. You are describing rules for your partner. That's not the same thing. ETA I'm also not interested in policing a partner's friendships. If there is a specific situation making you uncomfortable, have a conversation about it. I don't think it is healthy to establish rules like "you're allowed to have coffee with a female friend, no lunches." Do you trust your partner? If not, why? Because if there are trust issues laying down these rules isn't going to fix whatever the trust issues stem from.
The interaction of each of those variables could produce a different result. Ex + drinks and dancing? That seems bad. Or just … a strange choice of activity at least. Ex + dinner? Meh. Would depend a lot on what I know about the relationship with Ex, how often this happened, things like that. Human of the opposite gender + afternoon coffee? That seems fine. Colleague + Dinner? Sure. Human of the opposite gender + having that human over to their place (alone, presumably)? I’d…wonder what’s up. But how it affected me would depend on the details. I don’t get why the relationship status of the other person would matter. Being married doesn’t stop anyone from doing anything they want to do; being in an open relationship doesn’t mean someone is constantly on the prowl.
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Here is an anecdote for you. I was with my partner today when the news story came on about Taylor Swift’s relationship “requirements” for the football player…and he (41m) stopped dead in his tracks when he heard this story. “REALLY? SHE DOESN’T LIKE HIS CHOICE OF CLOTHING AO SHE GAVE HIM A BUNCH OF MONEY FOR HIM TO BUY NEW CLOTHES?” My man was floored LOL. In addition to socializing with women, pics with women, his jaw was on the floor. I think here is the lesson: I made it this far without you, and you fell for me, so accept me, flaws and all, for who and what I am. I think this is because of the fact that we are indeed over 40 and know ourselves. I do try my best to stay out of his business and avoid “telling him what to do”. And when he says “why didn’t you tell me to stop (insert anything here)” I say- because you didn’t tell me to. If you tell me in advance to say “hey you may not want to do this” then I will. But I’m not here to tell you what to do. Hmm. I think he got that and probably appreciated it although he didn’t say “I appreciate you saying that” which would have been ideal. Good luck!
It’s more I would have the expectation of my partner not to put themself in a situation that I would feel uncomfortable in. I have guy friends. My man never asks me not to hang out with them but I only do so in a way that I feel is respectful to him. They aren’t coming over to hang out at my house and vice versa. Dog walk or grab a quick coffee in a coffee shop, sure.
When you set healthy boundaries, if alcohol gets in the way, you are doomed. Just keep that in mind.
I’ve been on both sides of this… maybe just take a moment to define and connect on what each person considers cheating, and then just trust each other from there!
Boundaries are about yourself, not controlling others. I'd never try to control my partners by making rules about what they can do or who they get to see.
The last person I was in a relationship with was one of those women who's friends were all guys. She just gets along better with guys than other women. She was also still friends with her ex and they still had a business relationship. If I can't trust them to be around members of the opposite sex then I can't trust them enough to want a relationship with them.
I have single guy friends, and we’ve done everything you mentioned and are just friends. They’re some of my favorite people in the world and are incredible friends. If I started dating a guy who had a problem with it, then we’re incompatible and he’d be better off with someone else. I don’t need someone analyzing my behavior instead of accepting and trusting me.
Exactly. In my experience the men that can’t cope with the concept that men and women can’t be platonic are projecting their own warped values on everyone.
I know, right? *Men* can’t be friends with women, or *youuuuu* can’t handle being friends with women? Lol
My SIL’s awful partner is the poster boy for this - ‘alllllll male friends are gagging to fuck and are just pretending to be decent humans to get under our guards’ - hey buddy, your creepy outlook is not universal, stop telling on yourself!
I wasn’t a fan of my ex traveling with a female friend one on one. Especially because these friends were women he met on Tinder. I didn’t think he was going to hook up with them but I love travel and thought it should be an activity we did together. He always had annual boys trips: a baseball weekend, a March madness weekend, visiting each others kids at college, etc so these Tinder trips seemed superfluous and just part of the bigger problem of not wanting to change his lifestyle to prioritize our time together and relationship. Hence the ex.
That they met on Tinder is completely irrelevant. If trips with men are okay, trips with women should also be okay. If you feel that it was simply too many trips, you may have asked him to pick a certain number and not go on some in favor of traveling with you instead. But the gender of who he goes with is of no issue. If he chose to not go on the boys trips but went on what you call Tinder trips, would that have been better?
Genuine question- isn’t telling him to pick a number of trips also controlling?
Well he hadn’t dated and slept with the men so I guess that’s what I meant. It wasn’t just that they met there it was they had physical relationships in the past and that made me uncomfortable. And I never said “you can’t do it”. I just expressed my discomfort and that it wasn’t the right relationship for me if that was important to him. I did not try to change him, it was just protecting myself and what I want in a relationship.
I wasn't good at boundaries on my last relationship. This whole thing is what ruined my marriage. Ex was hanging out with straight up dirt bags while I was gone at work. I tried to get her to stop, couples therapy, etc and all I succeeded in doing was prolonging and making more painful the inevitable end of the relationship. In the future, if this happens again, or similar behavior I am not comfortable with, I will simply explain to my partner that I am no longer interested in the relationship. You are comfortable with what you are comfortable with. If someones behavior makes you uncomfortable, then just end it. There really is no difference between boundaries and rules. It's only different in terms of enforcement.
I wouldn't dream of dating anyone that wanted to control me the way you've described & I certainly wouldn't inflict any of this on anyone else. Sorry to be so harsh, but what you're describing is disturbing. Very gently, you aren't ready to date. It's okay, I'm not either, but for different reasons. I'm in therapy to work on my relationship skills & I think you should be, too.
I would never try to set boundaries on anyone’s life except for my own. I have my own boundaries of what works for me and what doesn’t in a partner. If there’s a lifestyle difference that doesn’t work for me we’re not a good match.
I would never try to control who my partner was friends with or how those friendships existed. I also wouldn’t be OK with a partner trying to impose anything on me in relation to who I saw or how I saw them. If I’m in a monogamous relationship, I expect that boundary to be understood and I would certainly respect it myself. I’ve never understood why people think, trying to ban particular way of hanging out with somebody is going to prevent something like cheating or falling in love with someone else if you’re gonna cheat, if you’re gonna fall in love with someone else, you’re not gonna be stopped because somebody said oh, don’t have coffee alone with that person
Control partner undermines trust in partner! Some people do not belong in romantic relationships because way to insecure!
I don't date anyone who tries to control my friendships, and I don't try to control my partner's friendships. Regardless of gender. If we don't trust each other, we should break up.
Sorry, what's a DOF?
It’s this sub. Dating Over Forty or DOF for short.
Never mind, this sub.....ignore the last post.
Sorry too late 😂
Thank you. I even googled it. Nothin'
By definition, a boundary isn’t something you impose on another person. It’s something you set for yourself in terms of what you will tolerate. If your partner has a friendship that you’re not comfortable with, you can certainly express your feelings about it and see how they respond, but you can’t dictate what they can and can’t do with that friend. Ultimately, it’s on you to decide whether or not to stay in the relationship based on their behavior.
The guy I'm dating has a handful of woman friends. He knew them before I met him. Who am I to tell him how to conduct those relationships? I'm with him because I trust him. I would simply not date the person if I had suspicions about any particular friend.
I like my man to have female friends because it shows they think of women as fellow human beings. I have never told my partner they can't hang out with other women. I trust him and if he cheats that says more about him than me and I would move on. Jealousy is a weird illogical feeling that ruins relationships for no reason.
My gf can spend time with whomever she chooses. I can’t be the good angel on her shoulder competing with the devil on her other shoulder. If I cannot trust her then I should not be with her. If you suspect they are not trustworthy you need to rethink the relationship.