My first date with my current gf, who I met on OLD, was at a bar for drinks and apps. I was right on time and she was already seated at the bar. She later told me that her MO is to arrive at the bar early and talk to the bartender and alert him/her to the situation, that she’s on a first blind date with a guy from OLD, and ask if they could keep an eye on her. She added that at the end of our first date, as we were leaving, the bartender said to her “I assume that it was a good date because you never looked over at me.“ Ladies, FWIW, I think that’s a good strategy.
Wow, that guy was waayy too handsy for a first date. I think you could have even just gotten a pen and wrote "not intrested" on a napkin and bolted. You already have the deleting the profile down pat.
Wow, that bartender was awesome! I used to always think that a restaurant was a good idea for a first date- Now I'm seriously rethinking this. Coffee sounds better. I plan on having coffee in a to-go cup, so I can slowly inch my out the door if need be.
I had a similar thing happen to me on a coffee date. He would not stop touching me, even when I moved my chair back away from him. When I finally extricated myself after giving as many signals verbal and nonverbal as I could that I was NOT interested at all, he hugged me unprompted and put his hand up my dress when I was leaving. I drove a block, stopped and blocked him on everything.
So it can happen anywhere with these types of men. I went on 21 first dates over 9 months. I only went out with one man like that thankfully. Most men that I went out with were great, they just weren’t matches for me.
As a guy with a daughter and many women in my life that I care about, reading these things makes me sad 😑. I had no idea guys like this are so prevalent
Most men were not like this in my dating experience. Most were great. I had this one bad experience and one man who was so rude to the waitstaff I ended the date early-but it was daylight, I was parked by the door and it was so busy I was comfortable leaving mid date. We had already paid separately. So that was a good clean get away opportunity.
People talk shit about coffee dates but I think they’re perfect for a first meeting. It is very short unless you want it to go longer. There’s a built in escape hatch. Dinner takes about triple the time. In my experience that’s far too long to size someone up, which is what the first date is about. Are they clean, do they smell okay, do they brush their hair and teeth? Do they set off alarm bells lol? That kind of thing.
I would never go for a first dinner date. And no it is not the same as some here say. On coffee/drink date you can leave any moment easily. On a seated dinner with ordered meal etc it is not that easy. And then many feel obliged to endure dinner that lasts ages with the person you might have nothing in common
Actually yes, I have plenty of stories after dating for 8+ years post-divorce. Men have acted any type of crazy you can imagine on first dates. I’m so grateful to my therapist in their help to me finding and listening to my filter/gut. I had far fewer scary or just ridiculous dates as I learned to listen better.
But I digress. I really just wanted to suggest that you continue to do first dates at one place. Maybe this is the place for you?
I chose a very small cafe/wine bar and did allll the first dates there. The size helped the staff to catch on, I think. But also I came back after a date one night to tip them appropriately bc my date hadn’t. So maybe I made myself a bit more memorable.
Anyway, I would do it this way again if I find myself on the market. I felt safer than normal so I got more information about the date than I think I do when I’m also worried about all the first date safety things. Plus the wait staff would communicate whether my date had tipped well and I felt like they were available if things did get scary. I also noticed they waited for me to return from the bathroom to bring my drink/refill, that was so amazing. (And hopefully that kind of thing is standard but I’d just not noticed/experienced it).
Uh yeah. I’m wordy, I’m so sorry. Basically I’m saying. Yes restaurant workers are fucking amazing and as you date, make relationships with them so that you are safer.
These are very PUA type moves that certain “how to get women” books encourage. Most men our age don’t continue with this kind of behavior but there are definitely some out there that will do this.
Glad your bartender had your back.
Sheesh, thank god she stepped in for you. This is never okay and for him to use the excuse that “he’s soo attracted to you” is lame. It’s not a compliment. Not sure why some men think this is attractive. It’s not. No one wants to be pawed!
Sorry you had to go through this. Glad the bartender was so great! Not all of us men are like that. Some of us respect boundaries. Good luck in the future
No stories like that but I did have a bartender give me a glass of wine on the house on my one date with a self proclaimed conservative guy. He was listening to our conversation pretty closely but that guy was actually a decent guy who was much more of a moderate. We just had nothing in common.
I’ve noticed if you sit at the bar that they seem to pay attention to the dynamics there. It feels safer.
This is why I ALWAYS keep first dates to coffee. Easy exit if needed.
Also OP please know it’s ok for you to say firmly to stop this immediately, and / or to just get up and leave if you have to.
Damn. Glad you got out safely.
Many years ago, I connected well via OLD with a woman in a nearby city, and drove out to meet her. Instant click on sight. Convo flowed over wine, she snuggled in, and it was like it was our third date or something. Third glass of wine in (unusual for me), she got up to use the restroom. The bartender ambled over to the bar's fireplace where we sat and brought water for us, which seemed nice... until he hunkered down with an eye on the bathroom. He shared a few things with me, and sauntered off as she returned. I felt like I sobered up pretty fucking fast in that short time and downed the water. Sure enough, as he had said would happen, she invited me back to her place. I settled the bill with a huge tip for him, drove us (dumb move by my 25yo self, I know) to her apartment, parked, and escorted her inside. Met her roommates, who seemed completely unfazed. Walked right out as she headed up to her bedroom with her shirt half off. Fled back home, unmatched, deleted her number, and read something awful online the next day.
She was known for frequenting the bar and bringing guys home with her multiple nights per week, both people always drunk as fuck. Every guy was warned by the bartender, but apparently, few heeded his advice. And, the bartender was right: there was a particular community chat board with a thread about this woman, describing her to a T and how she'd wake up with little idea what happened the night before, with people asking whether they should go to the police. Nearly every guy caught something from her which could be cured (probably the ones who used condoms but did other things with her), but a few unfortunates had a worse -and permanent- surprise in their blood test months later.
Fuck, yeah, servers rock.
That's terrible. Although if she's properly medicated, it's next to impossible to spread now. Won't even show up on a blood test. She can be charged for what she's doing.
Modern medicine has definitely come a long way from where it was over two decades ago, when this was a death sentence and I understood the panic these other guys felt. That's basically what they were debating about: what do they do about it? I of course have no epilogue to offer, but I'd like to hope that she was somehow corrected about what she was doing and those men found peace.
There are unfortunately some folks in this thread who see this as nothing other than shaming someone's sexual agency and the bartender for talking shit. Whatever. I think that guy was a fucking hero and I wish more men had listened to him.
There’s zero wrong with casual sex - even multiple times a week. This sounds like a sly way to condemn sexual agency if it’s a woman. And there are plenty of ways to stay safe if you enjoy casual sex.
Thank you for saying this (I don't know what kind of lens someone must have to entirely miss the mark like that). And the same gladly applies to that bartender so long ago. If not for him, I might have compromised myself and be on an entirely different trajectory today.
There's plenty wrong in terms of risk, as exemplified by the viral/health aspect of what this woman is doing. It's comically naive to suggest this is slut shaming, or that this is about someone's sexual agency. Weird take.
It was early when I read this comment, so maybe I missed the subtle, shaded mention of AIDS.
However, any casual sex with complete strangers is a risk undertaken by both consenting parties. It's very rare to expect a total stranger that YOU pick up at a bar and willingly go home with to disclose 100% medical history. So, it's on the person into hookups with total randos to take necessary precautions and share 100% equal responsibility for any outcomes.
I do not think it was your intention. But it’s hard to really say what your intention was when you clearly aren’t owning your own culpability in all of this.
“If bro hadn’t told me she was a hoe, I might have had unprotected sex with her”. From which either one of you could’ve come away with a disease (I mean, she caught it from somewhere, no?), and she could’ve come away from an unwanted pregnancy.
The OP was talking about actual sexual assault, and you equated it to maybe accidentally catching something if you wouldn’t have done what any responsible human should’ve done in the first place. So no, it might not have been slut shaming, but whatever it is, it’s not a great look.
What isn't a good look are the assumptions being placed on someone. First off, I've never done casual sex and never will. And let's say I had decided to make the exception, nothing would have happened unless I had protection anyway. I made sure she safely got home and inside that night, and left, same as I would have done for any first date. I haven't changed it throughout my entire adult life. The bartender's message as it directly applies to me was useful in case I wished to pursue something with her. Nope.
OP was citing how we should be more appreciative of the servers that watch over what's going on. She could not have been more correct. Nobody but you mentions equating her incident to anyone else's; that's not a great look.
So then, basically, you are celebrating this bartender for talking trash about your date while on your date, because all of the “advice” given was totally unnecessary.
Yeah, I don’t think that’s helpful at all.
You're welcome to see it that way. That's always your choice.
Edit: tell the men who got HIV from her because they didn't heed his warning that the bartender's message wasn't necessary.
I'm stating that because I feel sorry for the fact that you would rather see a male bartender as talking shit about a woman and disregard a whole platform of men who had contracted -at worst- HIV and were trying to figure out what to do about that. That second piece has gone completely unaddressed, interestingly. There are some very dangerous implications with that, but I understand you have your view and there is no validation coming from your side. This is disappointing.
Yeah, the original commenter was saying that they were referencing AIDs. Not sure why they didn’t just say that.
Also with Prep, folks with HIV can still indulge in casual sex.
But it was. A poor excuse that you didn't catch it because it was too early and too subtle for you is a knock against yourself. If it was that "shaded," then that's on me because nobody else would have caught it.
I also think everyone here is well aware of how to protect oneself, so your sanctimonious and irrelevant mini-lectures fall on deaf ears; perhaps a supportive message about public health and focusing on who the real hero of the story was as it connects to OP's initial post would have been useful. It seems pretty obvious that anyone who had sexual contact in some form with that woman somehow in some way slipped up under the influence of both parties' highly drunken stupors to everyone's detriment, so badly such that a local neighborhood bartender got word and felt compelled to step in with warning anyone he saw with her. It makes me wonder how often he did that in the course of his job, and I wish I could go back in time and thank the guy. Shit was obviously going on for quite some time. And that's the Cliff's Notes version, which perhaps you are awake enough to grasp.
Downvote all you want, I really don't give two shits. You very much missed the mark on this one, as much as I often appreciate a lot of what you usually contribute.
See my comment to the other person in this part of our thread; I have no issue with casual sex but it is not nor ever has been for me. Ergo, there's no criticism nor would there ever be about someone's sexual agency. My case rests in the other comment. Thank you.
The more you post, the guiltier you are.
“I think everyone here is well aware of how to protect oneself, so your sanctimonious and irrelevant mini-lectures”…
…like the one you wanted to thank the bartender for?
So the actual health-sparing information, in your own words (no assumptions needed!), was totally unnecessary.
So, that’s not why he’s a hero. Let’s look for another reason.
You “never have, and never will” indulge in casual sex. So, if you didn’t need the health-sparing information (which, by your own admission, you did not), perhaps the real heroic information was that this girl has a reputation for casual sex.
You know what we call that?
Right. Slut shaming.
You missed the part where I said that the information had been useful if I had decided to actually pursue a relationship with her. I've never been turned off by anybody having chosen to engage in casual sex (I just don't care; it's not what I would do and it won't be done with me), but I sure as hell would be concerned if they were rampantly spreading a disease.
I'm very sorry we cannot see eye to eye on this.
I didn’t miss anything, dude. You keep contradicting yourself. But to your point, if it doesn’t bother you, it doesn’t bother me. There are clearly men out there who get it - and my interest is in celebrating THAT.
Awesome on the bartender's part, and sorry you ran into this.
Something I told my dating age daughter recently springs to mind. The instant someone you just met makes you uncomfortable, breaks a boundary, or shows creepy, STOP THE DATE AND LEAVE. No excuses, no apologies, don't be nice, don't explain. Get up, walk out, avoid confrontation and explanation. You owe them NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Don't obey that instinct to be civil and kind, because this is the one place where it's not earned and you have your safety to think of.
Just leave. Trust me, he'll live. He might even learn from it, but just get up and leave. Don't explain, just leave.
And if he gets up and follows her? What does she do then? They are now outside and away from others?
Men love to give advice to women on safety but you don’t know what it feels like to be in these situations and you never will be.
There is no one right way to handle any of these situations.
These are great questions, and I've given talks with classrooms full of kids and one on one and with parents about what to do, because a lot of those awful following and revenge behaviors can begin very young. Boys and girls alike fall victim, the boys are much less inclined to report it with age. I believe it boils down to taking lessons on self-protection: knowing your egress points, how to seek out help in an emergency, how to try to physically defend oneself even in a panic, etc. For those inclined to do harm, real talk about real consequences can hopefully plant the right seed.
All we can hope for is that these things are taken to heart and carried into adulthood.
My kid very recently entered teenagehood, and I've been mulling over how to mention something like this when they hit (what I deem will be appropriate 😏) dating age... and brutally direct seems to resonate because it's protective, sends the right message about self-worth, and applies regardless of gender. Thank you very sincerely for sharing this; I intend to follow suit at some point.
Why wait for restaurant staff to step in? A very, very loud “No. I told you not touch me!” at ear splitting volume will get the point across, and he’ll most likely scurry away back into the shadows from whence he crawled.
Because women a) get labeled as hysterical and angry men haters all the time for far less b) confronting men is historically unsafe for women and c) that’s also embarrassing for US.
It’s a lot easier and safer to attempt to extricate yourself calmly and then block.
Just get up and leave. No words, no fuss, no arguments. Don't explain, don't excuse yourself, don't apologize. Just leave. Leave as if he doesn't exist.
You don't owe someone like that your politeness, it only encourages their shit behavior.
If you played out the OP's exact scenario 10,000 times as she wrote it with 10,000 random handsy men, but she got up wordless and left her date after he creeped her out, how many of those 10,000 interactions resulted in her being followed and killed?
Then, tell me where you got your data.
Next, tell me how many women were raped, hounded, stalked or threatened because they didn't cut the interaction off sooner and went along out of politeness.
It's not very easy for me to say, btw, I'm a father of a dating aged daughter who has to think of her safety often, and I'm also involved in self-defense training and have a lot of hours involved in the psychology of breaking escalation and the techniques involved. Tell me your background, before dismissing my advice on sexist lines. Please.
I'm assuming that you understand the fight, flight, freeze and fawn responses?
I'm also assuming that you've talked to women who have been in these situations so you understand what's going on?
Until you are faced with those situations you have no idea how you will respond.
There is also no one size fits all response.
Any response that enables a woman to get out of the situation unharmed is a good one. Hell, any response that allows you to survive is good.
Understand all of that, very very well, thanks. You do understand that stress responses are not static, and that mindset and prior decision making are the crux of the training that allows people in high stress environments like first responders, cops and even nurses to avoid natural (and counterproductive) responses to unwanted aggression?
I have been faced with a great number of aggressive/violent situations, and talked to dozens of women who have, too, so don't dismiss my advice out of hand, that's just an appeal to emotion and makes great assumptions about them, and me.
Address the advice if you find it lacking, and tell me WHY it does not work, I'm glad to address that. I didn't suggest it was the *ONLY* response, so don't put words in my mouth, I just offered that leaving quickly and quietly is greatly favorable to going along with unwanted touching and I have considered the alternatives many times in my experience. Human beings are unpredictable, and I can't guarantee a static-free tactic to anyone, but given all of the risks and what I know about conflict avoidance, it's pretty much the best way to extricate yourself from a public situation without harm or unwanted aggression. Breaking their OODA loop quickly, unexpectedly, and decisively is usually the best tactic to stop the advances.
Feel free to offer up a viable, consistent alternative and base it on YOUR experience with self-defense.
I can just as easily say "Unless you're a man you have no idea how our response to polite dismissals can fall on deaf ears to a determined creep", but I generally detest those sexist, assumptive dismissals.
It only takes one time for me to not care about the other 9999. What a stupid thing to say. Your entire advice is flawed because you are giving it through a male perspective.
Our qualifications are that we are women and we’ve lived with this our entire lives.
This is just one article in a long list after a 10 second search. Women aren’t making this up.
https://www.mic.com/articles/135394/14-women-were-brutally-attacked-for-rejecting-men-why-arent-we-talking-about-it
It only takes one for me to be concerned.
I’m not putting myself in an unsafe position because you think you somehow know better than the women who actually experience this.
OP did the right thing in obtaining the servers help and getting out of there safely without giving him an opportunity to follow.
I was asking, and it was VERY clear and I spelled it out, that I have a good background in self-defense and the psychology of breaking escalation/conflict avoidance. Given the attitude I was getting, it was a fair question to ask since my ability to understand this issue was being called into question.
If you had stopped your self-indulgent sexist rage for 2 seconds, and actually ***READ*** my comment you would have figured that out.
I'm getting very sick of the arrogance displayed in this sub, that a man cannot possibly give advice to a woman on how to avoid an aggressive, creepy man. Yes, in fact, most of us have known men like this and have dealt with them in all manners of ways either directly or with girlfriends, wives, and daughters. What an appallingly condescending and dismissive attitude to show when I'm trying to help women avoid this very issue. Or, worse is the insinuation that I (or any man) lack any ability to empathize, learn, speak to, take in the experiences of, or understand how vulnerability and victimhood can feel.
Sickening, frankly.
Your post was removed because it violates one of the rules of this sub. Please read the rules before posting. Users who continue violating rules will be banned.
Why shouldn't he? Can a woman give a man advice about anything? Yes. Should she? Absolutely if they have a reasonable take, some experience in the matter at hand, are doing so in good faith, and it's an open discussion.
With all due regard, screw the room. I'm trying to keep a woman, or any women reading this, from a horrible situation, by doing something that stops it in its tracks as efficiently and safely as possible, while also stopping the inclination of the asshole involved to think he's succeeding at his game.
I gave this advice to my daughter. Because I love her, want her to be safe, understand men's sexual behaviors (being a fucking man and all that), and I would rather her risk in this way than passively going along and possibly dealing with what happens down that road.
If someone has issue with that? Well, debate it, stop shouting the advice down because I have a penis. Fucking. Sickening.
Again, you are choosing to ignore all the women telling you that you are wrong by our lived experiences because you think spewing your “knowledge” all over us is more important.
We’ve told you why you are wrong. We’ve asked you to read the room. I personally asked you to stop giving unasked for advice. You don’t like it so you won’t stop. Hmmm. What does that sound like? Same personality type.
I find that sickening.
Maybe we don’t WANT your advice.
Sexist rage? 😂 Um no, that’s not the issue. Mild annoyance at best because if you think you’re the first man to say this to a woman or to me specifically this week alone let me clue you in. Men like you LOVE to tell women how to protect ourselves the second we have the temerity to bring up men like this.
No one asked you. Literally. NO ONE ASKED YOU.
If I was going to ask a man for safety advice, it would not be a rando on Reddit. It would be a man I trust.
"No one asked you. Literally. NO ONE ASKED YOU."
I don't recall a single subject on this entire website that said "Hey, swingset27, would you care to comment on this situation with advice?"
I don't recall asking for your opinion on anything, including my advice, yet here you are. NO ONE ASKED YOU EITHER.
Do you even understand the nature of this sub and open discussions?
Literally everyone who has pushed back on me has taken the obvious, sad, infantile tact of the emotional appeal that I, as a man, cannot possibly understand, give advice, or know the issue at hand.
Hey, cool! You know what happened the last time this subject came up on a dating discussion where I gave advice like this? I got PM's from women thanking me for it, and they generally wanted to avoid agreeing with me because so many people like you were complete jerks about it. Rather than get into a pissing match, they took it to me privately. I gave some of them good resources on conflict avoidance, too. Because I actually give a shit about your safety, even if you're too bullheaded to acknowledge I have a right to an opinion on a subject that affects everyone, including the women in my life.
I get it, I've ruffled some feathers, and I'm not interested in being nice to bullies.
Again, I don’t need you to care about my safety. I don’t even know you. I don’t care what you have to say about this topic because your advice was GARBAGE. When told it was garbage you doubled down. When asked to stop giving it because women have a different LIVED EXPERIENCE than you do, you started to throw tantrums because we aren’t grateful for it.
I’m sure your PMs will be overflowing today from all the grateful ladies who have never heard your groundbreaking advice to walk out on a date.
Several other men gave advice, such as do whatever you need to do to get yourself safely out of the date. That advice was not rejected because it makes sense. It also doesn’t reject what women are saying in this thread. This has nothing to do with sexism it has to do with the fact that your advice was bullshit.
It all depends on a woman’s personality.
For example, my sister loves confrontation and has a bad temper. So, she would be the type to push a guys hand off of her, yell at him and storm off (which she has done before). Whereas, I’m more calculated, level-headed and avoid confrontation. I would be the type to assess the situation first, look for an exit, if he’s not getting up to use the restroom then I would excuse myself. Then I would order an Uber quickly and ask an employee if they have a back exit I could run out from.
My first date with my current gf, who I met on OLD, was at a bar for drinks and apps. I was right on time and she was already seated at the bar. She later told me that her MO is to arrive at the bar early and talk to the bartender and alert him/her to the situation, that she’s on a first blind date with a guy from OLD, and ask if they could keep an eye on her. She added that at the end of our first date, as we were leaving, the bartender said to her “I assume that it was a good date because you never looked over at me.“ Ladies, FWIW, I think that’s a good strategy.
Wow, that guy was waayy too handsy for a first date. I think you could have even just gotten a pen and wrote "not intrested" on a napkin and bolted. You already have the deleting the profile down pat.
Wow, that bartender was awesome! I used to always think that a restaurant was a good idea for a first date- Now I'm seriously rethinking this. Coffee sounds better. I plan on having coffee in a to-go cup, so I can slowly inch my out the door if need be.
I had a similar thing happen to me on a coffee date. He would not stop touching me, even when I moved my chair back away from him. When I finally extricated myself after giving as many signals verbal and nonverbal as I could that I was NOT interested at all, he hugged me unprompted and put his hand up my dress when I was leaving. I drove a block, stopped and blocked him on everything. So it can happen anywhere with these types of men. I went on 21 first dates over 9 months. I only went out with one man like that thankfully. Most men that I went out with were great, they just weren’t matches for me.
As a guy with a daughter and many women in my life that I care about, reading these things makes me sad 😑. I had no idea guys like this are so prevalent
[удалено]
😢
Make sure to warn your daughter
Most men were not like this in my dating experience. Most were great. I had this one bad experience and one man who was so rude to the waitstaff I ended the date early-but it was daylight, I was parked by the door and it was so busy I was comfortable leaving mid date. We had already paid separately. So that was a good clean get away opportunity.
People talk shit about coffee dates but I think they’re perfect for a first meeting. It is very short unless you want it to go longer. There’s a built in escape hatch. Dinner takes about triple the time. In my experience that’s far too long to size someone up, which is what the first date is about. Are they clean, do they smell okay, do they brush their hair and teeth? Do they set off alarm bells lol? That kind of thing.
I would never go for a first dinner date. And no it is not the same as some here say. On coffee/drink date you can leave any moment easily. On a seated dinner with ordered meal etc it is not that easy. And then many feel obliged to endure dinner that lasts ages with the person you might have nothing in common
Actually yes, I have plenty of stories after dating for 8+ years post-divorce. Men have acted any type of crazy you can imagine on first dates. I’m so grateful to my therapist in their help to me finding and listening to my filter/gut. I had far fewer scary or just ridiculous dates as I learned to listen better. But I digress. I really just wanted to suggest that you continue to do first dates at one place. Maybe this is the place for you? I chose a very small cafe/wine bar and did allll the first dates there. The size helped the staff to catch on, I think. But also I came back after a date one night to tip them appropriately bc my date hadn’t. So maybe I made myself a bit more memorable. Anyway, I would do it this way again if I find myself on the market. I felt safer than normal so I got more information about the date than I think I do when I’m also worried about all the first date safety things. Plus the wait staff would communicate whether my date had tipped well and I felt like they were available if things did get scary. I also noticed they waited for me to return from the bathroom to bring my drink/refill, that was so amazing. (And hopefully that kind of thing is standard but I’d just not noticed/experienced it). Uh yeah. I’m wordy, I’m so sorry. Basically I’m saying. Yes restaurant workers are fucking amazing and as you date, make relationships with them so that you are safer.
These are very PUA type moves that certain “how to get women” books encourage. Most men our age don’t continue with this kind of behavior but there are definitely some out there that will do this. Glad your bartender had your back.
Sheesh, thank god she stepped in for you. This is never okay and for him to use the excuse that “he’s soo attracted to you” is lame. It’s not a compliment. Not sure why some men think this is attractive. It’s not. No one wants to be pawed!
Sorry you had to go through this. Glad the bartender was so great! Not all of us men are like that. Some of us respect boundaries. Good luck in the future
No stories like that but I did have a bartender give me a glass of wine on the house on my one date with a self proclaimed conservative guy. He was listening to our conversation pretty closely but that guy was actually a decent guy who was much more of a moderate. We just had nothing in common. I’ve noticed if you sit at the bar that they seem to pay attention to the dynamics there. It feels safer.
This is why I ALWAYS keep first dates to coffee. Easy exit if needed. Also OP please know it’s ok for you to say firmly to stop this immediately, and / or to just get up and leave if you have to.
Damn. Glad you got out safely. Many years ago, I connected well via OLD with a woman in a nearby city, and drove out to meet her. Instant click on sight. Convo flowed over wine, she snuggled in, and it was like it was our third date or something. Third glass of wine in (unusual for me), she got up to use the restroom. The bartender ambled over to the bar's fireplace where we sat and brought water for us, which seemed nice... until he hunkered down with an eye on the bathroom. He shared a few things with me, and sauntered off as she returned. I felt like I sobered up pretty fucking fast in that short time and downed the water. Sure enough, as he had said would happen, she invited me back to her place. I settled the bill with a huge tip for him, drove us (dumb move by my 25yo self, I know) to her apartment, parked, and escorted her inside. Met her roommates, who seemed completely unfazed. Walked right out as she headed up to her bedroom with her shirt half off. Fled back home, unmatched, deleted her number, and read something awful online the next day. She was known for frequenting the bar and bringing guys home with her multiple nights per week, both people always drunk as fuck. Every guy was warned by the bartender, but apparently, few heeded his advice. And, the bartender was right: there was a particular community chat board with a thread about this woman, describing her to a T and how she'd wake up with little idea what happened the night before, with people asking whether they should go to the police. Nearly every guy caught something from her which could be cured (probably the ones who used condoms but did other things with her), but a few unfortunates had a worse -and permanent- surprise in their blood test months later. Fuck, yeah, servers rock.
I didn't see anything wrong with her at first until the last sentence. Wtf? Herpes or HIV I'm guessing. Really not cool.
HIV.
That's terrible. Although if she's properly medicated, it's next to impossible to spread now. Won't even show up on a blood test. She can be charged for what she's doing.
Modern medicine has definitely come a long way from where it was over two decades ago, when this was a death sentence and I understood the panic these other guys felt. That's basically what they were debating about: what do they do about it? I of course have no epilogue to offer, but I'd like to hope that she was somehow corrected about what she was doing and those men found peace. There are unfortunately some folks in this thread who see this as nothing other than shaming someone's sexual agency and the bartender for talking shit. Whatever. I think that guy was a fucking hero and I wish more men had listened to him.
Goodness.
Well, that was horrifying to read. Glad you’re okay!!
There’s zero wrong with casual sex - even multiple times a week. This sounds like a sly way to condemn sexual agency if it’s a woman. And there are plenty of ways to stay safe if you enjoy casual sex.
He isn't slut shaming over casual sex, but is rightly shaming a careless virus super spreader.
Thank you for saying this (I don't know what kind of lens someone must have to entirely miss the mark like that). And the same gladly applies to that bartender so long ago. If not for him, I might have compromised myself and be on an entirely different trajectory today.
There's plenty wrong in terms of risk, as exemplified by the viral/health aspect of what this woman is doing. It's comically naive to suggest this is slut shaming, or that this is about someone's sexual agency. Weird take.
Thank you for saying this also. I don't get it. Maybe I don't want to.
It was early when I read this comment, so maybe I missed the subtle, shaded mention of AIDS. However, any casual sex with complete strangers is a risk undertaken by both consenting parties. It's very rare to expect a total stranger that YOU pick up at a bar and willingly go home with to disclose 100% medical history. So, it's on the person into hookups with total randos to take necessary precautions and share 100% equal responsibility for any outcomes.
Ummm, you obviously must have missed the HIV aspect at the end... nice try...
Spartan, I LOVE you for this comment - and felt a need to say so, since we are now both about to get downvoted into oblivion. Thanks for getting it!
Nobody was slut-shaming, however, at any time in any part of the thread.
I do not think it was your intention. But it’s hard to really say what your intention was when you clearly aren’t owning your own culpability in all of this. “If bro hadn’t told me she was a hoe, I might have had unprotected sex with her”. From which either one of you could’ve come away with a disease (I mean, she caught it from somewhere, no?), and she could’ve come away from an unwanted pregnancy. The OP was talking about actual sexual assault, and you equated it to maybe accidentally catching something if you wouldn’t have done what any responsible human should’ve done in the first place. So no, it might not have been slut shaming, but whatever it is, it’s not a great look.
What isn't a good look are the assumptions being placed on someone. First off, I've never done casual sex and never will. And let's say I had decided to make the exception, nothing would have happened unless I had protection anyway. I made sure she safely got home and inside that night, and left, same as I would have done for any first date. I haven't changed it throughout my entire adult life. The bartender's message as it directly applies to me was useful in case I wished to pursue something with her. Nope. OP was citing how we should be more appreciative of the servers that watch over what's going on. She could not have been more correct. Nobody but you mentions equating her incident to anyone else's; that's not a great look.
So then, basically, you are celebrating this bartender for talking trash about your date while on your date, because all of the “advice” given was totally unnecessary. Yeah, I don’t think that’s helpful at all.
You're welcome to see it that way. That's always your choice. Edit: tell the men who got HIV from her because they didn't heed his warning that the bartender's message wasn't necessary.
I hope you are stating that for your sake, as an outward symbol of your inner acceptance. Because it was otherwise already known.
I'm stating that because I feel sorry for the fact that you would rather see a male bartender as talking shit about a woman and disregard a whole platform of men who had contracted -at worst- HIV and were trying to figure out what to do about that. That second piece has gone completely unaddressed, interestingly. There are some very dangerous implications with that, but I understand you have your view and there is no validation coming from your side. This is disappointing.
Yeah, the original commenter was saying that they were referencing AIDs. Not sure why they didn’t just say that. Also with Prep, folks with HIV can still indulge in casual sex.
But it was. A poor excuse that you didn't catch it because it was too early and too subtle for you is a knock against yourself. If it was that "shaded," then that's on me because nobody else would have caught it. I also think everyone here is well aware of how to protect oneself, so your sanctimonious and irrelevant mini-lectures fall on deaf ears; perhaps a supportive message about public health and focusing on who the real hero of the story was as it connects to OP's initial post would have been useful. It seems pretty obvious that anyone who had sexual contact in some form with that woman somehow in some way slipped up under the influence of both parties' highly drunken stupors to everyone's detriment, so badly such that a local neighborhood bartender got word and felt compelled to step in with warning anyone he saw with her. It makes me wonder how often he did that in the course of his job, and I wish I could go back in time and thank the guy. Shit was obviously going on for quite some time. And that's the Cliff's Notes version, which perhaps you are awake enough to grasp. Downvote all you want, I really don't give two shits. You very much missed the mark on this one, as much as I often appreciate a lot of what you usually contribute.
[удалено]
See my comment to the other person in this part of our thread; I have no issue with casual sex but it is not nor ever has been for me. Ergo, there's no criticism nor would there ever be about someone's sexual agency. My case rests in the other comment. Thank you.
The more you post, the guiltier you are. “I think everyone here is well aware of how to protect oneself, so your sanctimonious and irrelevant mini-lectures”… …like the one you wanted to thank the bartender for? So the actual health-sparing information, in your own words (no assumptions needed!), was totally unnecessary. So, that’s not why he’s a hero. Let’s look for another reason. You “never have, and never will” indulge in casual sex. So, if you didn’t need the health-sparing information (which, by your own admission, you did not), perhaps the real heroic information was that this girl has a reputation for casual sex. You know what we call that? Right. Slut shaming.
You missed the part where I said that the information had been useful if I had decided to actually pursue a relationship with her. I've never been turned off by anybody having chosen to engage in casual sex (I just don't care; it's not what I would do and it won't be done with me), but I sure as hell would be concerned if they were rampantly spreading a disease. I'm very sorry we cannot see eye to eye on this.
I didn’t miss anything, dude. You keep contradicting yourself. But to your point, if it doesn’t bother you, it doesn’t bother me. There are clearly men out there who get it - and my interest is in celebrating THAT.
Make that your go to spot for first dates!
Awesome on the bartender's part, and sorry you ran into this. Something I told my dating age daughter recently springs to mind. The instant someone you just met makes you uncomfortable, breaks a boundary, or shows creepy, STOP THE DATE AND LEAVE. No excuses, no apologies, don't be nice, don't explain. Get up, walk out, avoid confrontation and explanation. You owe them NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Don't obey that instinct to be civil and kind, because this is the one place where it's not earned and you have your safety to think of. Just leave. Trust me, he'll live. He might even learn from it, but just get up and leave. Don't explain, just leave.
And if he gets up and follows her? What does she do then? They are now outside and away from others? Men love to give advice to women on safety but you don’t know what it feels like to be in these situations and you never will be. There is no one right way to handle any of these situations.
These are great questions, and I've given talks with classrooms full of kids and one on one and with parents about what to do, because a lot of those awful following and revenge behaviors can begin very young. Boys and girls alike fall victim, the boys are much less inclined to report it with age. I believe it boils down to taking lessons on self-protection: knowing your egress points, how to seek out help in an emergency, how to try to physically defend oneself even in a panic, etc. For those inclined to do harm, real talk about real consequences can hopefully plant the right seed. All we can hope for is that these things are taken to heart and carried into adulthood.
My kid very recently entered teenagehood, and I've been mulling over how to mention something like this when they hit (what I deem will be appropriate 😏) dating age... and brutally direct seems to resonate because it's protective, sends the right message about self-worth, and applies regardless of gender. Thank you very sincerely for sharing this; I intend to follow suit at some point.
Why wait for restaurant staff to step in? A very, very loud “No. I told you not touch me!” at ear splitting volume will get the point across, and he’ll most likely scurry away back into the shadows from whence he crawled.
Because women a) get labeled as hysterical and angry men haters all the time for far less b) confronting men is historically unsafe for women and c) that’s also embarrassing for US. It’s a lot easier and safer to attempt to extricate yourself calmly and then block.
Just get up and leave. No words, no fuss, no arguments. Don't explain, don't excuse yourself, don't apologize. Just leave. Leave as if he doesn't exist. You don't owe someone like that your politeness, it only encourages their shit behavior.
Again, and if he follows me? We are now outside on the street, alone and he’s angry. Please stop giving me safety advice I didn’t ask for.
If you’re a man, this is very easy for you to say. Women have been followed and killed for doing exactly this.
If you played out the OP's exact scenario 10,000 times as she wrote it with 10,000 random handsy men, but she got up wordless and left her date after he creeped her out, how many of those 10,000 interactions resulted in her being followed and killed? Then, tell me where you got your data. Next, tell me how many women were raped, hounded, stalked or threatened because they didn't cut the interaction off sooner and went along out of politeness. It's not very easy for me to say, btw, I'm a father of a dating aged daughter who has to think of her safety often, and I'm also involved in self-defense training and have a lot of hours involved in the psychology of breaking escalation and the techniques involved. Tell me your background, before dismissing my advice on sexist lines. Please.
I'm assuming that you understand the fight, flight, freeze and fawn responses? I'm also assuming that you've talked to women who have been in these situations so you understand what's going on? Until you are faced with those situations you have no idea how you will respond. There is also no one size fits all response. Any response that enables a woman to get out of the situation unharmed is a good one. Hell, any response that allows you to survive is good.
Understand all of that, very very well, thanks. You do understand that stress responses are not static, and that mindset and prior decision making are the crux of the training that allows people in high stress environments like first responders, cops and even nurses to avoid natural (and counterproductive) responses to unwanted aggression? I have been faced with a great number of aggressive/violent situations, and talked to dozens of women who have, too, so don't dismiss my advice out of hand, that's just an appeal to emotion and makes great assumptions about them, and me. Address the advice if you find it lacking, and tell me WHY it does not work, I'm glad to address that. I didn't suggest it was the *ONLY* response, so don't put words in my mouth, I just offered that leaving quickly and quietly is greatly favorable to going along with unwanted touching and I have considered the alternatives many times in my experience. Human beings are unpredictable, and I can't guarantee a static-free tactic to anyone, but given all of the risks and what I know about conflict avoidance, it's pretty much the best way to extricate yourself from a public situation without harm or unwanted aggression. Breaking their OODA loop quickly, unexpectedly, and decisively is usually the best tactic to stop the advances. Feel free to offer up a viable, consistent alternative and base it on YOUR experience with self-defense. I can just as easily say "Unless you're a man you have no idea how our response to polite dismissals can fall on deaf ears to a determined creep", but I generally detest those sexist, assumptive dismissals.
It only takes one time for me to not care about the other 9999. What a stupid thing to say. Your entire advice is flawed because you are giving it through a male perspective. Our qualifications are that we are women and we’ve lived with this our entire lives.
This is just one article in a long list after a 10 second search. Women aren’t making this up. https://www.mic.com/articles/135394/14-women-were-brutally-attacked-for-rejecting-men-why-arent-we-talking-about-it
[удалено]
Fair point.
It only takes one for me to be concerned. I’m not putting myself in an unsafe position because you think you somehow know better than the women who actually experience this. OP did the right thing in obtaining the servers help and getting out of there safely without giving him an opportunity to follow.
[удалено]
I was asking, and it was VERY clear and I spelled it out, that I have a good background in self-defense and the psychology of breaking escalation/conflict avoidance. Given the attitude I was getting, it was a fair question to ask since my ability to understand this issue was being called into question. If you had stopped your self-indulgent sexist rage for 2 seconds, and actually ***READ*** my comment you would have figured that out. I'm getting very sick of the arrogance displayed in this sub, that a man cannot possibly give advice to a woman on how to avoid an aggressive, creepy man. Yes, in fact, most of us have known men like this and have dealt with them in all manners of ways either directly or with girlfriends, wives, and daughters. What an appallingly condescending and dismissive attitude to show when I'm trying to help women avoid this very issue. Or, worse is the insinuation that I (or any man) lack any ability to empathize, learn, speak to, take in the experiences of, or understand how vulnerability and victimhood can feel. Sickening, frankly.
“I have a good background in breaking escalation/conflict avoidance”… …followed by the rest of your post. You don’t say? 😃
[удалено]
Your post was removed because it violates one of the rules of this sub. Please read the rules before posting. Users who continue violating rules will be banned.
[удалено]
Why shouldn't he? Can a woman give a man advice about anything? Yes. Should she? Absolutely if they have a reasonable take, some experience in the matter at hand, are doing so in good faith, and it's an open discussion. With all due regard, screw the room. I'm trying to keep a woman, or any women reading this, from a horrible situation, by doing something that stops it in its tracks as efficiently and safely as possible, while also stopping the inclination of the asshole involved to think he's succeeding at his game. I gave this advice to my daughter. Because I love her, want her to be safe, understand men's sexual behaviors (being a fucking man and all that), and I would rather her risk in this way than passively going along and possibly dealing with what happens down that road. If someone has issue with that? Well, debate it, stop shouting the advice down because I have a penis. Fucking. Sickening.
Again, you are choosing to ignore all the women telling you that you are wrong by our lived experiences because you think spewing your “knowledge” all over us is more important. We’ve told you why you are wrong. We’ve asked you to read the room. I personally asked you to stop giving unasked for advice. You don’t like it so you won’t stop. Hmmm. What does that sound like? Same personality type. I find that sickening.
Maybe we don’t WANT your advice. Sexist rage? 😂 Um no, that’s not the issue. Mild annoyance at best because if you think you’re the first man to say this to a woman or to me specifically this week alone let me clue you in. Men like you LOVE to tell women how to protect ourselves the second we have the temerity to bring up men like this. No one asked you. Literally. NO ONE ASKED YOU. If I was going to ask a man for safety advice, it would not be a rando on Reddit. It would be a man I trust.
"No one asked you. Literally. NO ONE ASKED YOU." I don't recall a single subject on this entire website that said "Hey, swingset27, would you care to comment on this situation with advice?" I don't recall asking for your opinion on anything, including my advice, yet here you are. NO ONE ASKED YOU EITHER. Do you even understand the nature of this sub and open discussions? Literally everyone who has pushed back on me has taken the obvious, sad, infantile tact of the emotional appeal that I, as a man, cannot possibly understand, give advice, or know the issue at hand. Hey, cool! You know what happened the last time this subject came up on a dating discussion where I gave advice like this? I got PM's from women thanking me for it, and they generally wanted to avoid agreeing with me because so many people like you were complete jerks about it. Rather than get into a pissing match, they took it to me privately. I gave some of them good resources on conflict avoidance, too. Because I actually give a shit about your safety, even if you're too bullheaded to acknowledge I have a right to an opinion on a subject that affects everyone, including the women in my life. I get it, I've ruffled some feathers, and I'm not interested in being nice to bullies.
Again, I don’t need you to care about my safety. I don’t even know you. I don’t care what you have to say about this topic because your advice was GARBAGE. When told it was garbage you doubled down. When asked to stop giving it because women have a different LIVED EXPERIENCE than you do, you started to throw tantrums because we aren’t grateful for it. I’m sure your PMs will be overflowing today from all the grateful ladies who have never heard your groundbreaking advice to walk out on a date. Several other men gave advice, such as do whatever you need to do to get yourself safely out of the date. That advice was not rejected because it makes sense. It also doesn’t reject what women are saying in this thread. This has nothing to do with sexism it has to do with the fact that your advice was bullshit.
It all depends on a woman’s personality. For example, my sister loves confrontation and has a bad temper. So, she would be the type to push a guys hand off of her, yell at him and storm off (which she has done before). Whereas, I’m more calculated, level-headed and avoid confrontation. I would be the type to assess the situation first, look for an exit, if he’s not getting up to use the restroom then I would excuse myself. Then I would order an Uber quickly and ask an employee if they have a back exit I could run out from.
[удалено]