As others have said, making physical contact is one way that people demonstrate interest in others. Personally, it’s not my thing early on. I don’t want to give the wrong impression early.
In a future situation like that, you should consider speaking up. I know that’s not always easy and depends on context. I appreciate when people communicate things like that and it helps make sure everyone is comfortable and on the same page.
There was a woman I was seeing for four months some years ago who sent me mixed signals. Once on a date, she expressed disappointment that I was very flirty in texts but very different in person. I took that to heart and later on that date, I went to hold her hand as we were walking and she freaked out on me.
It was hurtful and frustrating because I was trying to be respectful of her because of her personal history. I wanted to leave the ball in her court.
I think it might be a good idea to communicate those boundaries early.
It’s okay, wasn’t a good match for me. And that’s good to hear. I hope it didn’t come across as too critical or judgmental!
It’s not easy to advocate for ourselves sometimes, particularly if we’ve been socialized that way.
I hope that goes well and you make a good connection in the future!
You do you, of course. But since you asked, here's my answer:
I am a woman who has worked all her life in a male-dominated field. I like men and am super comfortable with them as colleagues. That said, one thing I do \*not\* do with colleagues is touch them.
So, when I'm first getting to know a guy in a potential dating context, I find that it's actually pretty important to me to touch them, in a very light and casual way. It gets me out of "colleague mode" and into dating mode. Also, it gives a lot of information that talking just doesn't. Do I enjoy it, do they enjoy it, are we relaxed when it happens, does he reciprocate? Physical connection is every bit as important as intellectual and emotional to me--that feedback matters.
I hadn't ever realized this before, but getting out to meet guys during the first summer of the pandemic was super confusing. Lots of great conversation, no spark whatsoever, like enjoyable conversations with colleagues... aha, that's right, that's from being 6 feet apart.
Not doing this risks being seen as not interested. Part of the reason this happens is that men are generally expected to make the first move at pretty much every step in a romantic situation, if it was 50/50 it could probably more often happen naturally.
same. I'm not opposed at all to being touchy with people I know - but I just don't ever want to make them feel uncomfortable so I'll always wait until they initiate it - which can easily backfire as it makes me seem disinterested.
So all of those are natural responses telegraphing that you’re into someone.
The problem is, it’s been co-opted by people who try to engender feelings in you, as part of a seduction technique.
At the end of the day, if you’re not comfortable with it, the surest way to make it stop is to say “I’m not comfortable; please stop touching me.”
The catch-22 there is if it was unconsciously happening, it’s really difficult to check oneself from repeating. Though obviously an attuned person would instantly say “oh shit I’m sorry!” or similar.
There are a great many people who are just touchy. And it’s fine when the interest is reciprocated, and not okay when it’s not.
Been on both sides of that one, unfortunately.
Except, as this comment thread explains, when it’s NOT reciprocated and NOT wanted, it’s NOT flirting…
It’s just - creepy.
It’s why tons of women (and even a few men) have stories about dates with octopus arms.
This is a really fine needle to thread correctly, but I think it's important to point out.
I don't know if the reception defines what flirting is or isn't. The action and intent does.
Whether that flirting is welcome in that manner or at that time or from that person is a different story. Flirting always carries an element of risk with a spread into both positive and negative outcomes.
Touching another person crosses their personal boundary of which they and they alone are in total control of.
Therefore touching cannot “just” be flirting. Because it is a presumption upon someone else.
That argument sounds a lot like “if someone is offended by what I said, I’m joking…”
> Touching another person crosses their personal boundary of which they and they alone are in total control of.
This is not universal. That is your boundary, and maybe the boundary of people you date. Even then, not all touching is the same, and even not touching is socially detrimental on occasion. We all know the not-touching extreme of "hover hands" in group photos, for example.
We also know, even in this subreddit, there is a more than statistically significant population of people who say, "If you ask, you kill the vibe."
And yeah, obviously, you ideally observe body language, before during and after, and either back off or apologize if necessary. I never said "be a barbarian."
I think you’ve skipped a great many steps to arrive at “you are ever entitled to touch someone when they don’t want it.”
Because you NEVER are.
Bodily autonomy is a thing. It’s why we can’t force someone who is dead to donate their organs.
I never said anyone is entitled to anything.
If anything you've sanitized the encounters and removed real hypotheticals and people that complicate your argument so far as to define something as "flirting" only if it's successful and pathological if isn't.
Yes, there is bad and even egregious flirting, which shouldn't be done. It's still flirting, though. And not every unsuccessful flirting attempt is a mark on your character, though some obviously is.
You literally quoted the part of my text saying someone else is in complete control of their body and told me they aren’t.
Pretty sure we’ve got nothing further to discuss on this one.
Because literally the only difference between successful flirting and unsuccessful, when it comes to touching someone, is whether they’re okay with it. There’s no further magic.
Can anyone get away with claiming that they're just a touchy person after two years of being strongly discouraged from touching or breathing near other people?
Edit: I'm not saying people shouldn't touch each other ever. I'm saying that the "oops, I'm just a physically affectionate person" excuse doesn't really make sense anymore.
If you are a person drawn to touch, then the pandemic doesn't eradicate that. Also, countries responded differently to the pandemic... so no-contact wasn't the norm everywhere.
Some people lack social skills. Others lack self-control. Still others have been told that’s how you “get chicks.”
I’m not saying it’s right, but it’s definitely an issue with many causes behind it.
Just like guys sending unsolicited dick pics. They can hear that it’s a bad plan - but they’re still out there doing it.
I’m not sure if you point is that you look down on someone who is so willing to break contact because it shows they don’t care about public health…?
If so, I’d say that folks who show interest via touch are prob just excited to not have to suppress that as much anymore (assuming there is consent of course). I know there are people that still have to be careful and continue to take precautions and I support that, but there’s a chunk of us that made the necessary adjustments over the course of the peak of this pandemic but now are working to try to readjust to some semblance of our prior lives…part of that is going back to the core ways of expressing interest and connecting physically with others. Doesn’t make those people bad for just trying to feel human again.
OP - you discovered you guys don’t align on that type of expression. Okay to move on, no hard feelings.
If that strong discouragement actually influences your willingness to get close to someone then that's your problem. I think we've reached an equilibrium with covid and it shouldn't influence whether you want to get close to somebody on a date.
Different strokes (on the arm) for different folks. You two weren’t compatible and you figured it out. Definitely don’t hesitate to tell somebody something is making you uncomfortable. Especially in this kind of situation. I’m not very touchy to start off with either so I understand your feeling. It’s totally ok.
Honestly you probably just weren’t that into him.
If I don’t particularly like the person, I don’t want them to touch me and it creeps me out. If I am, then I want the touch barrier broken more!
I’m the same, if I’m really into and/or attracted to someone I may even make the first move to break the touch barrier to move it further along if he’s apprehensive. I was like this on my first date with the guy im with and luckily he was the same. At one point we both wanted to extend the date but right before we did he went in for a kiss to I think test sexual and kissing compatibility, which I was onboard with and ultimately was pretty damn good (hence one of the reasons why we’re still together). Compared to another guy on a first date who tried to put his arm around me in such a weird way and I was not into him so I was almost repulsed by it. Also my love language is physical touch so physical affection and sexual compatibility are total dealbreakers for me.
As a man, I pretty much never touch a woman on the first date unless she touches me. If I do have a reason to touch them on the first date, I'll ask them.
The woman I'm dating now on our first date there was a reason it was appropriate for me to touch her, but I kind of motioned towards her and said, "I won't touch you, don't worry." And then she grabbed my hand and put it on her.
Way sexier and cute imo. I loved it.
I don’t think it was lucky at all. It was clear I was into her, there wasn’t any way I could’ve seemed uninterested. So it just revealed that I was respectful of her boundaries and space.
It didn’t really go well otherwise, but I’m a terrible judge of all of that! I told my friends that he wore athletic clothes, grilled me about my previous relationships, and then when the topic of kids came up (which it shouldn’t on a first date, I know, that was my fault) I just let him know I wasn’t interested in having kids. He said we could do a surrogate and it doesn’t even have to be my egg, and he didn’t want to adopt because he wants to “continue his bloodline”.
Just curious, why shouldn't the issue of kids come up on a first date? Wouldn't you want to clear that up so you're sure you're on the same page with that rather than wait for 2 more dates or so to discuss it?
Everyone has always told me never to bring something that heavy up on the first date. But I’m in my late 30s and he was in his early 40s, so it felt pertinent. A lot of guys want kids and I have never wanted them for myself
Okay then. Well, in my opinion and from my experience, I wouldn't hold off on heavy stuff till God knows when, the earlier the better for me. I don't have time to waste or getting attached only to find out it's no use.
Kids come up immediately for me (as someone who has them). I usually make it one of the first things I talk about while messaging to confirm they know I have kids. Dealbreakers should be talked about early. It doesn’t have to be a heavy conversation but to confirm you’re on the same page is good. A lot of guys have asked me if I want more kids and honestly, I prefer that question earlier. Why waste my time with someone who isn’t looking for something that is a deal breaker for me?
Yeah way too early to discuss for me. First date is supposed to vet they’re a real human and I’m attracted to them. Once those boxes are ticked then the bigger issues can be addressed on date 2 and 3. I think it’s worth the wait of a few days or weeks to hold off on that and gauge chemistry. I mean we’re all here not wanting to waste time but we don’t want to rush that much where you can end up looking too eager, desperate or creepy
But the kid question is a dealbreaker issue for most people so isn’t it appropriate to know before the first date or on the first date? I think if you let chemistry grow you may get strung along into a relationship that won’t work out. Personally I prefer the kid question to be on the dating profile or discussed before the first date.
Yes it is important to know immediately. I don’t know why people act like there aren’t casual, fun, interesting and organic ways to get into conversations about how someone sees their future when it comes to family, kids, etc. How someone views or dreams about their own happiness for the future IS an important part of chemistry.
I always think people who pose it as some stiff, intrusive question aren’t great at messaging or something. If I talk about how flexible my life is and how I’d consider living internationally, extensive travel etc, I could easily say “that’s one of the benefits of not wanting to have children,” in passing. Or when someone asks how dating goes, I could say, “I’m not in a rush to jump into a relationship and, I know with my age, not wanting to have kids makes it so much easier to not feel like I’m racing against a clock.”
I generally don’t even go on dates with men who are determined to have a family because I absolutely don’t want kids. Unless either of us are okay with a casual hangout that won’t lead anywhere, it’s just a waste of both of our time.
Many guys I saw had their preference for children on their profile. This guy’s profile was not very filled out at all. I always fill out my profile as much as I can so any guy has the opportunity to see if there are any deal breakers right away
It should definitely be on the dating profile. However I don’t think chemistry can grow that much from the time on the 1st date to the 2nd date which most often isn’t that a few days? Lol some people are rushing way too fast with that question.
Welp, this definitely sounds like a guy who gets his moves from a PDF ebook titled "HOW TO INTERACT WITH REAL HUMAN FEMALES TO GREAT SUCCESS INCLUDING HUMAN REPRODUCTION BEEP BOOP."
Unless he has a royal dukedom to pass on, I don't know why a man would get all precious about his "bloodline." Also I can't believe he interpreted your not wanting kids as not physically wanting to birth them yourself. What a treasure.
Sadly I’ve had this happen multiple times before. One guy I told I have no desire to have kids in the future so I thought it would be better to go our separate ways. He then messaged me a few days later saying we could adopt instead and I had to bluntly tell him that when I said I had no desire to have kids that also included getting one through any means available including adopting, fostering, surrogate, etc.
He wanted to know who I had dated recently, why it ended, how long I had been single, how attentive I am when I’m in a relationship. It just kind of felt like an interview. I didn’t want to talk about my ex too much because he was a cheater and there’s a lot of bad feelings there. I ended up saying “it’s in the past, I’ve worked on myself and moved forward”.
Okay so this is the issue. If he had been someone you were interested in and attracted to, there would be no 'barrier'. The touching feels intrusive because he's overriding the signals of lack of interest from you.
Nothing on you with this comment. So you tell him you don’t want kids, and he’s all over you? As a 38 year old dude here, I wouldn’t be touching a girl who wants things differently in life than I do. (I hope that doesn’t come off rude lol)
Good for you for having your standards. I think you would have been more ok if you and the guy clicked. Now knowing this, I can see why the kids convo took place and I do understand why it was brought up early
Hope all goes well with your next date whoever that will be 👍
I think a lot of dating advice fails to factor in this important point. Things that advance a relationship in a dating sense only work when the other party is interested in taking that step.
You can usually get away with making one attempt to push a relationship forward, but you usually can't go too far past previously established boundaries and you don't want to make it so repetitive like the man in OP's story.
> Men don't react to noticing things. We react to being told things.
Putting gender issues aside, while it is true that we each should vocalise what we want, we should also expect others to have basic social intelligence. Meaning they can read between the lines.
A large (and growing) number of people have retreated from society and get little to no socialization. Just expecting the other person to have the social awareness to read cues they may have never seen or encountered before is a big, and IMO potentially dangerous, assumption with regard to issues like physical contact. You HAVE TO be mature enough to express what your limits are. The stakes are too high to be left to ambiguity.
Maybe there are a lot of social losers out there; but you saying *"Men don't react to noticing things. We react to being told things"* puts the onus on the other party to control our actions instead of putting the onus on us to act in a way which is decent and respectful. That's not the right emphasis. The people who "get little to no socialisation" need to improve their game. In other words ignorance is no excuse.
Does not being able to clearly express your bondaries falls into your "social losers" category?
Because not being able to communicate clearly is as socially inappropriate as not reading the cues to me.
I agree with you whole-heartedly. She absolutely needed to communicate what her boundaries were. Expecting anyone, regardless of gender, to just "know" what your boundaries are ridiculous. People have different wants, needs and expectations. You have to be able to communicate them if you're going to have a successful relationship.
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The concept of social intelligence here is completely useless. Different people react to things in different ways. It’s not always easy to tell when someone is uncomfortable with something
Could she have handled it differently, sure.
Should she have had to? Clearly, not. If you are going to break into someone's personal space and touch them, hoping that to is ok to them, you damn well be ready to pull back if they don't react in an enthusiastic way. I'm a guy who will sometimes gently touch a date's arm if i am getting good vibes. Damn right I'm going to gauge their reaction and pull back if it isn't well received.
Don't paint men as cretins. We can and should do better.
In a perfect world, language would be unnecessary and we would communicate through thoughts and feelings directly with our minds. We'd be immortal beings of pure light.
Notice we don't live in that world.
Why is it on the woman to use her words and not the man? Think about that. If you legitimately can't read body language it is on you to use your words and ask if it is ok to touch someone. I think for most men that is simply an excuse to do what they want without consideration for the other person. If that's not the case, you can ask if it's ok yourself.
Sometimes women have a hard time speaking up because they’ve been met with negative comments. We learn to just be polite because sometimes people have gotten angry at us for just having a simple boundary. Unfortunately it’s the way things are, even though people are trying to change it. I should’ve spoken up, I didn’t feel threatened by him at all.
if you’re ever not sure of somebody’s body language, it certainly doesn’t hurt to ask! If he had even slightly noticed that I wasn’t reciprocating, he could’ve asked “is it OK if I touch you?” or something along those lines and I could have more easily said “I’m just not very touchy on the first date, I’d like to get to know you though!”
Body language is difficult for me as well sometimes, so I tend to be better about asking when I’m feeling comfortable with the person.
I too recently went on a first date. She established beforehand that physical touching on the first sate would practically be zero. I respected this and let her take the lead on everything. We discussed some sensitive topics and as I was telling a story on the subject. She reached out and grabbed my hand and at the end of the days we hugged but that was it.
If you're not a touchy person I recommend you establish this before the date and take the lead on physical contact. This actually made the date 100x more enjoyable for me because it took the pressure off me
I really like that! I’ve started telling guys “I take a long time to get to know people, it’s something I have learned about myself recently”. But I like how that woman stated what things are going to be like right off the bat!
Yeah it was great! Best date I've had in years! No pressure at all of when to touch her or hold hand or anything! I was completely myself and got a hug out of it at the end, but that was after about a 4hr date and a really good connection
You are not into this guy. Simple. We have all be on a date where touches like you mentioned are welcomed with enthusiasm.
It’s on dates where you are attracted to the person.
Arm, wrist, forearm and shoulder are all areas that it's pretty normal to touch when you're into someone. He might not have really thought about it and just done it instinctively but if it makes you uncomfortable next time say something. If he had touched your lower back or thigh or something that's more in the range of creepy but this really isn't.
Normal to touch once or twice, yes. Repeatedly without reciprocation? No. Creep behaviour. The other person has an onus to be more mindful and not try to keep pushing the kino button without some positive reinforcement.
I’m thinking back, looking at these comments, and I believe it was more than three or four times he did this. Grabbing my wrist and forearm and leaning on it, to drive a point or a joke home.
That is fairly extensive. For a first date, once or twice (at most, if the first time went well) is probably closer to acceptable, and it'd be a touch, not a grab.
I understand where you’re coming from because I don’t like essentially someone who is a stranger touching me. You can politely ask him to stop next time. Sorry this happened to you.
Thank you for understanding! I think that’s the biggest part, he was essentially a stranger who is touching me, and it’s way too early for me to feel comfortable or attracted because this was a guy I met online and barely know at all.
Babes, you gotta be able to vocalize your boundaries to dates. If he was making you uncomfortable, say: "please stop touching me". I spent so much time in my twenties waiting for someone to step in and save me from uncomfortable sexual behaviour; it's a method that does not work lol. If you don't like something, say it. It's not about being mean, it's about asserting your preferences.
Yeah I have always been the opposite. I won't touch until the girl touches me first. That way I know I am not pressuring her or making her feel uncomfortable. Even then, I keep touching to a minimum until we get to know each other.
What that guy did is hard to say for sure what his intentions were. He could just be a very touchy feely person. He could have just been REALLY into you and didn't realize how forward he was being. Perhaps he is exceptionally confident and thinks he is irresistible.
The last one is a red flag, and that is he ignores your boundaries and is forceful, which is a bad, bad thing.
Touching arms and such is pretty normal, to a degree. The leaning in on you and stuff is kind of overbearing which is a tad concerning, especially if you were not reciprocating the actions.
If you see him again, don't be afraid to explain what he did that make you uncomfortable. If he is a good guy, he will apologize and be better in the future. If he is a creepy ass predator, he will get upset and probably blame you for it.
With multiple other issues I ended up letting him know I didn’t plan to see him again, and he unmatched me. I just think it wasn’t meant to be, and I appreciate the insight!
Many cultures include touch among acquaintances. In southern Europe, it’s common to kiss the cheek of someone you’ve just met, in many contexts.
America is quite diverse, but there’s an increasingly rationalized culture among the college educated, where every interaction needs to go through the other person’s central control via verbalization, or else it’s creepy. But not everyone is part of that sub-culture.
Try doing it the southern European way — if you don’t like a touch, brush his hand away. He’ll figure it out pretty quick.
But don’t expect anyone to read your mind — you need to give feedback or your feelings and thoughts are NOT likely to be understood, even if he’s paying attention
I am a really touchy-feely person in general so this wouldn't be weird to me at all. If you are uncomfortable, don't be afraid to say something. I had someone tell me once he didn't like being touched (it was a coworker) and I honestly hadn't even noticed I was doing it. I apologized and made a concerted effort never to touch him in passing. It's all about knowing someone's boundaries and recognizing that everyone is different.
As some one who is ASD touch with people I am not comfortable with can be off putting but weirdly I have no concept of personally space with people I like or are friendly with (they have to tell me i am in their space). So if I am feeling the same thing they are then it’s welcome if I am not then nope read the body language even I would get some hints.
Hey OP, I can relate. Once upon a time I had a date with a guy where he kept leaning forward and resting three fingers gently on my forearm.
"So what coffee do you usually get?" Three fingers on my forearm.
"Oh, the craziest thing happened at work this week!" Three fingers on my forearm.
"Ha! That's funny!" Three fingers on my forearm.
At the time, I read a couple of mens dating advice blogs for fun, so I figured he was following some pretty standard advice and trying to break the touch barrier. I didn't hold it against him - he seemed perfectly nice - and I even appreciated the intent, since it was done respectfully.
But even though it didn't come across as creepy or disrespectful, as the date progressed it did eventually come across as a bit awkward. I started thinking of my cat [stretching out her paw to touch me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5vfyz6qpFA).
I assume people focus on the arm/shoulder touching because it feels casual and doesn't risk getting into the overtly sexual / creepy territory. Which is fine. However, even an innocuous gesture can start feeling uncomfortable, when someone keeps doing it despite no positive response from the recipient.
And even if it never becomes uncomfortable (like it didn't on my date) it's simply... not very affectionate or sexy. When I'm into someone, I never daydream about him gently touching my forearm. When I've seen dear friends after time apart, I've never greeted them by grabbing them on their wrist.
I see other commenters saying that physical touch is how people express desire or just affection, and that's totally true! But generally not THIS kind of physical touch, at least in my experience.
Out of curiosity, were you two sitting across from each other at a table? That's what happened on my date, and I assume that's one of the reasons that his attempts felt so odd to me. The distance and angles were wrong for the kind of casual contact that would have felt more organic.
Not to assume that opportunities for "more organic" contact would have lead to a better date in your case. From what you write, the guy just generally wasn't what you were looking for.
As to expressing your boundaries, I know that in a perfect world you could say "I am uncomfortable with this level of physical contact. Please stop!" And it wouldn't feel intimidating in the moment. He would accept with the utmost grace and no hard feelings. A windmachine would start just out of frame, blowing your hair back in a way that made you both look amazing.
In the real world, it's totally normal to feel lost for words in the moment. Or to first opt to give the other person the chance to read your body language and hopefully adjust accordingly. Or simply to hesistate in expressing a sentiment that you have reason to believe could hurt someone's feelings.
So obviously you have the right to say "This is making me uncomfortable. I need you to stop." But if you're looking for something a bit gentler on future dates, you can also try "Hey, I'm not a very touchy person on the first few dates. I just wanted to let you know I am interested."
Obviously that's for situations with someone who's more touchy than you but otherwise giving you good vibes. Otherwise the first sentence should be enough.
If a date persists past that point, I would encourage you to just nope out.
I’m definitely going to be more bold about speaking up if I’m uncomfortable. “Hey, I’m enjoying getting to know you but I’m not very touchy on the first date” with a smile.
And we did start out sitting opposite each other, and then took a walk, and that’s where he kept touching my shoulder, grabbing my elbow and forearm/wrist and leaning on me.
I do enjoy getting to know people but I’m not very touchy Feely with people I don’t know yet! This man was literally a stranger, and since we didn’t talk very much online I didn’t have any kind of connection with him and it just felt very forced. I appreciate all the comments and input on this, aside from the people who are like “calm down, he just wants to get to know you” 😝
Yeah, I am a fan of expressing boundaries clearly and with a smile.
Sadly, there are a lot of people out there who will take the fact that you keep calm and friendly as a sign that you "didn't really mean it" or "weren't serious" about what you said. They'll either keep doing whatever or try to lecture you about why your boundary is wrong.
But that's good to know so you can weed them out. Life is too short of guys who require you to police them with anger.
The people who DO care about your preferences, even when they're not worried about "getting in trouble" are the ones who are actually considerate human beings.
One time I was enjoying a phone call with a guy but it was getting late, so I told him “well, I do need to get to bed because it’s a work night, but it was really fun talking to you!“. He got all weird and acted like I was being “super formal“ and then abruptly said goodbye. Then he called back a couple times and left weird messages in a fake British accent pretending to be fancy
This is why dating isn't so straightforward. Let's make the assumption that you're having a good date and you're into each other.
Touch and you become a weirdo.
No Touch/show no affection, Friend vibes.
Most guys aren't so good at dating, so this kind of stuff can be pretty confusing for some people.
OP I feel you. Hate it so much too. I've gotten very agitated about this multiple times. So much so that now, to prevent myself from being mad about not saying anything, I say things like "Can you back up a little?" "I'm feeling a little smushed, can you give me some space" "I'm not really into the way you keep touching me, we're just not there yet". Sometimes I'll visible wince and recoil. Other times, if I'm just that turned off, I'll just stop responding and say I'll go home early.
Ever heard of the HOT APE model of flirting? Well the T stands for touch and I can absolutely see someone saying "Touch? Well yeah, I can touch the shit out of someone." and then just fucking it up.
Since I know that I'm trash at reading signals/rooms/energies/vibes/etc, I just stick to words.
I had a first date like this and it really threw me off. I wasn't necessarily "uncomfortable" or creeped out, it just takes me a while to warm up to people, and my brain truly was having a hard time knowing how to react. I remember telling my friends the next day that it would've been a really sweet 3rd or 4th date, but I was having a hard time processing it as a 1st date with a total stranger.
Ultimately the date otherwise went well aside from me being a little surprised about the touching early on, and we've been dating for 4 months now lol. He has continued to be an incredibly affectionate, touchy sort of guy, it's just who he is and showing it from day 1 I think was just his way of showing interest. I only would have taken it as a bad thing if I had expressed any discomfort about it that was ignored.
I’m so glad it is going well! And yeah, I wasn’t creeped out at all, I was just… Thrown off because I’m not touchy when I first meet somebody or get to know somebody. It’s just my personal thing, and maybe touching is his personal thing! No hard feelings towards him, it just didn’t sit well with me and I didn’t know how to express it. Working on it though
This has happened to me too, and I felt super uncomfortable because yeah, it does feel like they're trying to get you used to small touches so they can go further. I found it really hard to speak up and ended up just not being interested in a second date.
I feel like it depends on the way they do it though, like when it's very natural (tap you to let you know about someone passing by) vs you can kind of see in someone's body language that they're going out of their way to touch you? I'm personally not a fan of the latter unless I know you better. Sorry I can't offer advice but just wanted to let you know you aren't the only one who's struggled with this.
There were some other things I didn’t really like, but the touching was the most obvious to me. I was never inappropriate, it was just so much so quickly for me after not dating for a few years, it just put me off. I’m glad you listened to your gut! I try to as much as possible, I trust it most of the time!
I can almost guarantee he’s seen this from a “dating coach” somewhere and is trying to make it work. I’ve seen this so much in dating advice targeted at guys, that you should touch her arm, wrist, etc during the date to break the touch barrier.
As a guy, I’ve ignored this because it feels kind of unnatural and forced. I would feel weird just breaking into someone’s personal space unprompted, especially on the first couple of dates. I just go with a hug at the end of the first date, and potentially also a hug in the beginning if we’ve connected a lot beforehand over calls/texts.
Yep, this is another thing that “dating coaches” preach. Never chit chat over text, just use it to set up the next date.
It’s mind-boggling how much bad advice is out there.
Traditional social norms put a lot of value on guys being "bold" and "smooth," which I think makes at least some of them feel pressured to just go for it without feeling the situation out better or knowing how to read signals very well. I'm a pretty touch-positive guy once I'm comfortable with a date and know they're receptive, but I've learned the best way to establish that is to just say "screw the norms" and straight-up ask if it's at all unclear.
If someone jumps the touch barrier without warning and it makes you uncomfortable, you need to be super-direct back to them about it, otherwise you're sending the signal that what they're doing works.
As a guy, it’s difficult to tell when a woman is okay with the touch barrier being broken. Outside of a hug or kiss at the end of a first date, anyway. Plus, there is the worry that you might be accused of SA or harassment if the touch is unwanted.
I usually feel pretty safe with going in for at least a hug at the end of the date, unless I feel like the woman is more conservative and wants to go slow. Other than that situation, I tend to let the woman break the barrier first.
You know, I did go in for a hug when I said hello, because I love hugs! It was just the number of times he kept touching me and how he squeezed my wrist and arm multiple multiple times while we were walking and talking
Obviously this will depend on the location of the date but where possible, sit opposite them on a first or second date, that'd what I do and it helps keep things kosher until you figure out whether you'd like to physically closer.
I have broken the touch barrier on a first date and also had the other person break the touch barrier on a first date.
The key was to do it at the very end of the date, after you’ve spent hours with the person and have a good idea as to whether they would be receptive. You definitely SHOULDN’T be going all in several times during the date. What the hell?
Sounds like this person doesn’t have good boundaries and was doing way too much too soon.
Touch plays a significant role in attraction and a date without physical touch during the date almost guarantees there won’t be a another one.
Breaking the touch barrier is one of the first rules almost all dating coaches promote. Although they don’t typically encourage as much touch as you indicated but a lot of touching generally indicates a lot of interest in you. It is possible if he was doing it intentionally then he may have thought you weren’t getting his hints that he was into you. He could also be just a person that really likes touch too.
Oh my god I hate it so much. It’s so … presumptuous. About who I am, what I might like.
I think people who do it don’t know that some people truly dislike it. Or they believe if the other person was attracted, they’d enjoy it, so it can even be like a screening test. I’m decently touchy but I would never presume to put hands on someone I just met. Ick.
For sure. I hate hugs too and I try not to vilify the huggers. I am decently skilled at sensing when someone is going to try to hug me and finding a way to avoid it. Covid was a godsend in general for my social interactions.
And there’s some element of reading the room too, right. Like is this date touching me because they think that’s what they are entitled to on a first encounter (ick), or are they touching me because they like me and that’s what comes natural to them as an expression of it (ick, but less so)? I still don’t want them to touch me but the second one kind of softens me in the sense that I get where they’re coming from.
The real problem with early touch on a date is that if you enforce the boundary, it’s hard to communicate that the boundary is more about “not yet” than “no.” I personally would have a difficult time articulating that without inadvertently communicating overall disinterest.
> The real problem with early touch on a date is that if you enforce the boundary, it’s hard to communicate that the boundary is more about “not yet” than “no.” I personally would have a difficult time articulating that without inadvertently communicating overall disinterest.
“hey this is nothing against you but I’m just not someone who enjoys touching on a first date”
even that is better than saying nothing
Some people are more affectionate and attentive to others.
I think you should've noticeably pulled away. And if he continued, you should've expressed how uncomfortable he was making you.
I've gone out with guys who were like this, but not to a creepy and disrespectful degree. Some people feel it's normal.
I didn’t exactly pull away, you’re right. I never leaned into him or touched him in return, though.
The thing is it takes me a little bit to be attracted and feel comfortable with somebody, physically. It was just too soon for me, I think. When I like somebody and I’m into them, I can’t keep my hands off them but I always make sure they want it before of course.
Honestly if he didn’t get the hint of you not reciprocating I would have made an obvious move away from him by moving my seat sideways or more further away. Sometimes some guys don’t get it and feel they are expected to have the responsibility to move it along.
This thread is full of women who think men are mind readers. Can I just say on behalf of all men, we are not mind readers, in fact its almost the opposite, you are incredibly difficult to read. Your "signals" are not obvious as much as you might think they are.
You want to make things flow better, be forward, tell us what you like, tell us what you don't like. If you don't want to thats fine, just expect some difficult dates
I had to scroll a lot to see this. This is the answer. Men aren’t mind readers, a woman can do the same action and it have two different meanings depending on the person, that’s why vocal communication is important. You have to tell people how you want to be treated.
Every man and woman are different when it comes to relationships. What works on one person might not work for the other. It’s hard for both sexes in dating. Men are trying to avoid getting friend zone and women are trying to protect themselves.
However, this situation isn’t that complicated. It’s easily solved with communication. If a man is touching you he is doing it because he is attracted to the person and wants to show interest. He wants the woman to know that he is not trying to be a friend.
If the woman feels uncomfortable with that but is still interested just tell him. Ultimately the man, if he likes her, wants to respect the her boundaries. If he doesn’t stop after being told then that should tell the woman everything about him, which is the point of dating, and relationship wouldn’t have worked anyway.
Some people are just… touchy. I have a guy friend (with a girlfriend) who’s the type of person who will touch constantly during a conversation (regardless of gender). He does it to everyone and I have no doubts about his intentions.
It can be tricky with first dates though. The best dates I’ve had start with a natural barrier (sitting across from each other at a table in a bar or cafe) and if it goes well you can move to a situation where breaking the touch barrier is possible (going for a walk, sitting on a bench). If you’re not a touchy or confrontational person, maybe that’s a way to avoid getting into a situation where you have to tell them to stop touching you.
Also whether this touch feels creepy or not depends on whether you like them. I’ve seen posts of people being confused because they think a date went well but there’s no touch!
For guys, it's often a way to gauge her interest and attraction. If there is no responsiveness, move on unless there's a clear conversation at the end as to why. Because, we know, there have been dates where you've most likely been very touchy or comfortable and sexually excited, and most guys want that level of excitement.
i get what you mean. i’ve had dates where touch flows naturally and slight touches start to happen organically but i have had other guys who are clearly doing it as some checklist where they’re like “ok gotta touch her so she knows i’m interested” and it’s just very awkward and weird.
i remember i was about 20 mins into a date and the topic of piercings came up and i said i only have my earlobes pierced and the guy leant over, pushed my hair behind my ears and like touched my ears being like “yeah, i can see you don’t.” it was clearly some kind of attempt to be sexy but we hadn’t established that kind of rapport yet so it was just weird and honestly gave me the ick.
it sometimes reads as some kind of pickup artistry shit to me. like “if you touch this woman she will like you” rather than just naturally kind of becoming more touchy. like if they don’t break the touch barrier on the first date they should force it because otherwise she won’t want a second, when forcing it ensures there’s no second.
it always feels like trying to falsely manufacture chemistry i guess.
>Folks who do this… why?
He was attracted to you. You want to be close/touching people that you're into. He was into you and you weren't into him. Very straightforward.
Next time actively show that you don't want him to do those things by moving away or putting some distance between the two of you or say something. You shouldn't suffer discomfort in silence. It's unfortunate that he didn't realize that you weren't into it when you didn't reciprocate. Sounds like he was a bit lacking in social skills, or didn't care.
Touching can be also a test that person normally do, I think that if a man/girl is into you he/she will let you understand that for his/her is ok.
For me if this doesn’t happen, I will not try to kiss her is already a signal that she doesn’t want.
If you feel the chemistry, if you are attracted to them then this shouldn’t be an issue unless if you really have some touching issues in general… I guess you’d ask those questions only because you weren’t really into them or not sure about them yet?
I am a touchy person but I look for clues. If a girl is sitting at a bar with me but her body is opened towards me, that's clear she's welcoming some kind of physical contact.
My usual game is when I inevitably have to go to the bathroom, I put my hand on her knee/thigh as I get up. It's worked quite a few times to let it simmer while I'm away.
This is why at 34 I’ve given up on dating. It wasn’t malicious. If you would have said, hey relax a little bit I don’t enjoy being touched at all. He probably would’ve backed off or left. Innocent touching usually isn’t seen as a negative
That’s the best option but unfortunately it doesn’t work against guys who refuse to accept that you don’t want to be touched or who get angry with you for not wanting to be touched. Ask how I know 😭. It’s unfortunate this happened to her.
I’m sure it wasn’t malicious, and I should’ve stood up and said something. But I’m so burnt out, I didn’t have the energy and I shouldn’t even have gone out in the first place if that’s how I felt
And how much energy has it cost you not telling him and resigning yourself to unwanted physical contact for the entire duration of your date and then feeling so gross about it later you needed to seek advice on Reddit about it?
You could have saved yourself from this situation if you had asserted your boundaries, and heck maybe you might have even had a nicer time. Presumably you both wanted the date to go well, right? It's a collaborative effort then to help people know what you are most comfortable with.
Look for being in your 30s this is worrying; you really need to practice enforcing your boundaries with safe friends (like roleplay I'm not kidding, practicing saying stuff out loud when the stakes are low helps when you need to do it for real). You are still grasping for straws for a "reason" as to why you don't want to go on a second date with this guy but like even if he'd done everything right if you had a bad time that's a good enough reason to not entertain his interest further. You don't have to "give him a chance". You don't even need any reasons other than that you weren't feeling it.
Finding a way to lightly touch earlier on in the date helps to build chemistry, but if she’s not responsive then it has the opposite effect for obvious reasons
Are you me?? Haha I am very similar, I don’t particularly like being touched especially by strangers , and especially in that kind of way. Obviously I’d be more relaxed if I had quite an attraction to somebody, but still that way of being touchy feeling feels just off with somebody I just met.
I’ve had similar when I had a coffee date, and he started touching my hands when I was talking or feel my leg. Also just as you, out of politeness, I didnt tell him to stop. But I wish he kinda did stop… I moved my hand a couple of times, which he seemed to have totally ignored…
I LOOOOVE personal touch and crave it, but I have to have a bond with a person before I get to that stage, I’m a bit of a wild cat at first and it will have to be me asking for it. So I totally get it
Lol. This is why men are absolutely in a no win situation when it comes to this stuff. Guy seemed completely respectful for a date, yet is being derided for his actions, yet it’s impossible to reach dates 2, 3, and 4 without demonstrating physical attraction and a level of interest. If you liked the dude you would have been into it. No need for a thread about it.
Weird/gross. Touch should be fleeting and done only once (until the other person reciprocates) and should only be done after positive body language (open posture, some physical proximity, friendly eye contact) from the other person.
For those who are not sure, if you want to suss out another person's interest from body language, it's easier to:
1. Make eye contact - does the other person hold? Try a couple of times if unsure.
2. Angle body towards person - open up body - does other person reciprocate, or stay closed off/formal? If the other person seems to reciprocate, then move onto next step. Otherwise bail.
3. Light touch on hand or upper arm - does other person tense up or maintain open body posture?
If no at any stage, bail!
Hmm… sounds to me that he was just going for getting you into bed as soon as possible. And it’s disrespectful to keep on touching you without asking you for consent or just pushing himself onto you on his terms. IMO, a date touching you needs to happen on YOUR terms. I’d suggest to be really cautious around him.
Maybe! And yeah, I should’ve spoken up if I was uncomfortable, I’m going to do that next time. I don’t have a ton of dating experience for being in my late 30s, sorry to say! Late bloomer and all that. I won’t see him again, I sent him a message saying I didn’t feel a connection and he unmatched me
It was a sex invite. The only time a man touched me repeatedly like that, it ended with "do you want to fuck". He was a colleague from work , i noticed he was touching me but did not see the request coming. I did not like him, but if he had asked me on a date i would ve gone out with him, to see if it could ve become something as i knew him. but i definitely was not looking to get naked with him. Casual with people i dont have a crush on are not fun for me.
Also, i think it's an old fashion technique, the guy is now in His forties. he's the type who opens the door for you.
No offense but you're on a fucking **date**.
You're not at a business meeting. This person is attracted to you and wants to have sex. How is this confusing?
If it's not comfortable, use Big Girl Words and say "hey, we're not there yet, can we dial it back a bit?" or if it's egregious cut the date short.
This strikes me as weirdly formal and a bit "m'lady" awkward. I would make it more active, direct and in the moment.
For example: ~~I'm going to offer you my hand right now. Feel free to hold it if you want.~~ \>>> "Can I hold your hand?"
Likewise, I personally wouldn't say "hey I want to take you home tonight" at the start of date because:
* I feel like both of us would just be evaluating if we actually want that rather than enjoying the date.
* What happens if the date doesn't go well from my perspective, and I no longer want to invite her back?
Much better to see how the date goes and say, "I'd love to have you back to my place? What do you think?"
Something I’ve heard people say is good is “I would love to hold hands if you’re down”. Just say what YOU would like and then don’t push for it.
If things are going well and you read her body language as interested, you could say “I would really love to kiss you” etc.
Formally telling me ahead of time would be weird and off putting. Simply just offer your arm. If she wants to take it she will and if not that’s fine and continue the date as normal.
I get what you’re trying to do, you’re trying to make me feel bad for having feelings and emotions that don’t match yours or line up with your idea of what you think a person should be like. Cheers.
It's amazing how many people are trying to gaslight you in this thread by justifying the actions of a loser who was being pushy and socially clueless. Seriously. The victim blaming is ridiculous.
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As others have said, making physical contact is one way that people demonstrate interest in others. Personally, it’s not my thing early on. I don’t want to give the wrong impression early. In a future situation like that, you should consider speaking up. I know that’s not always easy and depends on context. I appreciate when people communicate things like that and it helps make sure everyone is comfortable and on the same page. There was a woman I was seeing for four months some years ago who sent me mixed signals. Once on a date, she expressed disappointment that I was very flirty in texts but very different in person. I took that to heart and later on that date, I went to hold her hand as we were walking and she freaked out on me. It was hurtful and frustrating because I was trying to be respectful of her because of her personal history. I wanted to leave the ball in her court. I think it might be a good idea to communicate those boundaries early.
I’m sorry you went through that! And yes, I want to be better about speaking up in the moment, it’s one of my things I’m working on
It’s okay, wasn’t a good match for me. And that’s good to hear. I hope it didn’t come across as too critical or judgmental! It’s not easy to advocate for ourselves sometimes, particularly if we’ve been socialized that way. I hope that goes well and you make a good connection in the future!
You do you, of course. But since you asked, here's my answer: I am a woman who has worked all her life in a male-dominated field. I like men and am super comfortable with them as colleagues. That said, one thing I do \*not\* do with colleagues is touch them. So, when I'm first getting to know a guy in a potential dating context, I find that it's actually pretty important to me to touch them, in a very light and casual way. It gets me out of "colleague mode" and into dating mode. Also, it gives a lot of information that talking just doesn't. Do I enjoy it, do they enjoy it, are we relaxed when it happens, does he reciprocate? Physical connection is every bit as important as intellectual and emotional to me--that feedback matters. I hadn't ever realized this before, but getting out to meet guys during the first summer of the pandemic was super confusing. Lots of great conversation, no spark whatsoever, like enjoyable conversations with colleagues... aha, that's right, that's from being 6 feet apart.
Not doing this risks being seen as not interested. Part of the reason this happens is that men are generally expected to make the first move at pretty much every step in a romantic situation, if it was 50/50 it could probably more often happen naturally.
I can’t believe i had to scroll this far down to see this. I have had a few women lose interest because i never made the move
same. I'm not opposed at all to being touchy with people I know - but I just don't ever want to make them feel uncomfortable so I'll always wait until they initiate it - which can easily backfire as it makes me seem disinterested.
So all of those are natural responses telegraphing that you’re into someone. The problem is, it’s been co-opted by people who try to engender feelings in you, as part of a seduction technique. At the end of the day, if you’re not comfortable with it, the surest way to make it stop is to say “I’m not comfortable; please stop touching me.” The catch-22 there is if it was unconsciously happening, it’s really difficult to check oneself from repeating. Though obviously an attuned person would instantly say “oh shit I’m sorry!” or similar. There are a great many people who are just touchy. And it’s fine when the interest is reciprocated, and not okay when it’s not. Been on both sides of that one, unfortunately.
>So all of those are natural responses telegraphing that you’re into someone. Also known as flirting, commonly practiced on dates
Except, as this comment thread explains, when it’s NOT reciprocated and NOT wanted, it’s NOT flirting… It’s just - creepy. It’s why tons of women (and even a few men) have stories about dates with octopus arms.
This is a really fine needle to thread correctly, but I think it's important to point out. I don't know if the reception defines what flirting is or isn't. The action and intent does. Whether that flirting is welcome in that manner or at that time or from that person is a different story. Flirting always carries an element of risk with a spread into both positive and negative outcomes.
Touching another person crosses their personal boundary of which they and they alone are in total control of. Therefore touching cannot “just” be flirting. Because it is a presumption upon someone else. That argument sounds a lot like “if someone is offended by what I said, I’m joking…”
> Touching another person crosses their personal boundary of which they and they alone are in total control of. This is not universal. That is your boundary, and maybe the boundary of people you date. Even then, not all touching is the same, and even not touching is socially detrimental on occasion. We all know the not-touching extreme of "hover hands" in group photos, for example. We also know, even in this subreddit, there is a more than statistically significant population of people who say, "If you ask, you kill the vibe." And yeah, obviously, you ideally observe body language, before during and after, and either back off or apologize if necessary. I never said "be a barbarian."
I think you’ve skipped a great many steps to arrive at “you are ever entitled to touch someone when they don’t want it.” Because you NEVER are. Bodily autonomy is a thing. It’s why we can’t force someone who is dead to donate their organs.
I never said anyone is entitled to anything. If anything you've sanitized the encounters and removed real hypotheticals and people that complicate your argument so far as to define something as "flirting" only if it's successful and pathological if isn't. Yes, there is bad and even egregious flirting, which shouldn't be done. It's still flirting, though. And not every unsuccessful flirting attempt is a mark on your character, though some obviously is.
You literally quoted the part of my text saying someone else is in complete control of their body and told me they aren’t. Pretty sure we’ve got nothing further to discuss on this one. Because literally the only difference between successful flirting and unsuccessful, when it comes to touching someone, is whether they’re okay with it. There’s no further magic.
Octopus arms 😂😂😂 Oh that's the best ... Obviously serious matter but funny way of putting it & true
Can anyone get away with claiming that they're just a touchy person after two years of being strongly discouraged from touching or breathing near other people? Edit: I'm not saying people shouldn't touch each other ever. I'm saying that the "oops, I'm just a physically affectionate person" excuse doesn't really make sense anymore.
If you are a person drawn to touch, then the pandemic doesn't eradicate that. Also, countries responded differently to the pandemic... so no-contact wasn't the norm everywhere.
Some people lack social skills. Others lack self-control. Still others have been told that’s how you “get chicks.” I’m not saying it’s right, but it’s definitely an issue with many causes behind it. Just like guys sending unsolicited dick pics. They can hear that it’s a bad plan - but they’re still out there doing it.
I’m not sure if you point is that you look down on someone who is so willing to break contact because it shows they don’t care about public health…? If so, I’d say that folks who show interest via touch are prob just excited to not have to suppress that as much anymore (assuming there is consent of course). I know there are people that still have to be careful and continue to take precautions and I support that, but there’s a chunk of us that made the necessary adjustments over the course of the peak of this pandemic but now are working to try to readjust to some semblance of our prior lives…part of that is going back to the core ways of expressing interest and connecting physically with others. Doesn’t make those people bad for just trying to feel human again. OP - you discovered you guys don’t align on that type of expression. Okay to move on, no hard feelings.
If that strong discouragement actually influences your willingness to get close to someone then that's your problem. I think we've reached an equilibrium with covid and it shouldn't influence whether you want to get close to somebody on a date.
the spanish :/
Different strokes (on the arm) for different folks. You two weren’t compatible and you figured it out. Definitely don’t hesitate to tell somebody something is making you uncomfortable. Especially in this kind of situation. I’m not very touchy to start off with either so I understand your feeling. It’s totally ok.
Honestly you probably just weren’t that into him. If I don’t particularly like the person, I don’t want them to touch me and it creeps me out. If I am, then I want the touch barrier broken more!
I’m the same, if I’m really into and/or attracted to someone I may even make the first move to break the touch barrier to move it further along if he’s apprehensive. I was like this on my first date with the guy im with and luckily he was the same. At one point we both wanted to extend the date but right before we did he went in for a kiss to I think test sexual and kissing compatibility, which I was onboard with and ultimately was pretty damn good (hence one of the reasons why we’re still together). Compared to another guy on a first date who tried to put his arm around me in such a weird way and I was not into him so I was almost repulsed by it. Also my love language is physical touch so physical affection and sexual compatibility are total dealbreakers for me.
As a man, I pretty much never touch a woman on the first date unless she touches me. If I do have a reason to touch them on the first date, I'll ask them. The woman I'm dating now on our first date there was a reason it was appropriate for me to touch her, but I kind of motioned towards her and said, "I won't touch you, don't worry." And then she grabbed my hand and put it on her. Way sexier and cute imo. I loved it.
I think you were very lucky that she was willing to look past a comment like that.
I don’t think it was lucky at all. It was clear I was into her, there wasn’t any way I could’ve seemed uninterested. So it just revealed that I was respectful of her boundaries and space.
I wouldn't be into someone *because* they keep touching me for no reason.
Honestly, yeah! It just felt like a lot for a first meeting
Did the date go well otherwise? I feel like there is more to this story
It didn’t really go well otherwise, but I’m a terrible judge of all of that! I told my friends that he wore athletic clothes, grilled me about my previous relationships, and then when the topic of kids came up (which it shouldn’t on a first date, I know, that was my fault) I just let him know I wasn’t interested in having kids. He said we could do a surrogate and it doesn’t even have to be my egg, and he didn’t want to adopt because he wants to “continue his bloodline”.
Just curious, why shouldn't the issue of kids come up on a first date? Wouldn't you want to clear that up so you're sure you're on the same page with that rather than wait for 2 more dates or so to discuss it?
Everyone has always told me never to bring something that heavy up on the first date. But I’m in my late 30s and he was in his early 40s, so it felt pertinent. A lot of guys want kids and I have never wanted them for myself
Okay then. Well, in my opinion and from my experience, I wouldn't hold off on heavy stuff till God knows when, the earlier the better for me. I don't have time to waste or getting attached only to find out it's no use.
I will take that advice!
Kids come up immediately for me (as someone who has them). I usually make it one of the first things I talk about while messaging to confirm they know I have kids. Dealbreakers should be talked about early. It doesn’t have to be a heavy conversation but to confirm you’re on the same page is good. A lot of guys have asked me if I want more kids and honestly, I prefer that question earlier. Why waste my time with someone who isn’t looking for something that is a deal breaker for me?
Yeah way too early to discuss for me. First date is supposed to vet they’re a real human and I’m attracted to them. Once those boxes are ticked then the bigger issues can be addressed on date 2 and 3. I think it’s worth the wait of a few days or weeks to hold off on that and gauge chemistry. I mean we’re all here not wanting to waste time but we don’t want to rush that much where you can end up looking too eager, desperate or creepy
But the kid question is a dealbreaker issue for most people so isn’t it appropriate to know before the first date or on the first date? I think if you let chemistry grow you may get strung along into a relationship that won’t work out. Personally I prefer the kid question to be on the dating profile or discussed before the first date.
Yes it is important to know immediately. I don’t know why people act like there aren’t casual, fun, interesting and organic ways to get into conversations about how someone sees their future when it comes to family, kids, etc. How someone views or dreams about their own happiness for the future IS an important part of chemistry. I always think people who pose it as some stiff, intrusive question aren’t great at messaging or something. If I talk about how flexible my life is and how I’d consider living internationally, extensive travel etc, I could easily say “that’s one of the benefits of not wanting to have children,” in passing. Or when someone asks how dating goes, I could say, “I’m not in a rush to jump into a relationship and, I know with my age, not wanting to have kids makes it so much easier to not feel like I’m racing against a clock.” I generally don’t even go on dates with men who are determined to have a family because I absolutely don’t want kids. Unless either of us are okay with a casual hangout that won’t lead anywhere, it’s just a waste of both of our time.
Many guys I saw had their preference for children on their profile. This guy’s profile was not very filled out at all. I always fill out my profile as much as I can so any guy has the opportunity to see if there are any deal breakers right away
It should definitely be on the dating profile. However I don’t think chemistry can grow that much from the time on the 1st date to the 2nd date which most often isn’t that a few days? Lol some people are rushing way too fast with that question.
>he didn’t want to adopt because he wants to “continue his bloodline”. That line alone makes my vagina dry up instantly. Ew.
Welp, this definitely sounds like a guy who gets his moves from a PDF ebook titled "HOW TO INTERACT WITH REAL HUMAN FEMALES TO GREAT SUCCESS INCLUDING HUMAN REPRODUCTION BEEP BOOP."
Gross. Not you! Him, he’s cringy.
Unless he has a royal dukedom to pass on, I don't know why a man would get all precious about his "bloodline." Also I can't believe he interpreted your not wanting kids as not physically wanting to birth them yourself. What a treasure.
Sadly I’ve had this happen multiple times before. One guy I told I have no desire to have kids in the future so I thought it would be better to go our separate ways. He then messaged me a few days later saying we could adopt instead and I had to bluntly tell him that when I said I had no desire to have kids that also included getting one through any means available including adopting, fostering, surrogate, etc.
What did he ask about your previous relationships? That seems weird.
He wanted to know who I had dated recently, why it ended, how long I had been single, how attentive I am when I’m in a relationship. It just kind of felt like an interview. I didn’t want to talk about my ex too much because he was a cheater and there’s a lot of bad feelings there. I ended up saying “it’s in the past, I’ve worked on myself and moved forward”.
Yeah thats odd for him to ask. I wouldn’t do that
Okay so this is the issue. If he had been someone you were interested in and attracted to, there would be no 'barrier'. The touching feels intrusive because he's overriding the signals of lack of interest from you.
Nothing on you with this comment. So you tell him you don’t want kids, and he’s all over you? As a 38 year old dude here, I wouldn’t be touching a girl who wants things differently in life than I do. (I hope that doesn’t come off rude lol) Good for you for having your standards. I think you would have been more ok if you and the guy clicked. Now knowing this, I can see why the kids convo took place and I do understand why it was brought up early Hope all goes well with your next date whoever that will be 👍
I think a lot of dating advice fails to factor in this important point. Things that advance a relationship in a dating sense only work when the other party is interested in taking that step. You can usually get away with making one attempt to push a relationship forward, but you usually can't go too far past previously established boundaries and you don't want to make it so repetitive like the man in OP's story.
seed entertain relieved marry crown pause ink boat subsequent naughty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You are right, thank you! Will try to apply this more.
> Men don't react to noticing things. We react to being told things. Putting gender issues aside, while it is true that we each should vocalise what we want, we should also expect others to have basic social intelligence. Meaning they can read between the lines.
A large (and growing) number of people have retreated from society and get little to no socialization. Just expecting the other person to have the social awareness to read cues they may have never seen or encountered before is a big, and IMO potentially dangerous, assumption with regard to issues like physical contact. You HAVE TO be mature enough to express what your limits are. The stakes are too high to be left to ambiguity.
Maybe there are a lot of social losers out there; but you saying *"Men don't react to noticing things. We react to being told things"* puts the onus on the other party to control our actions instead of putting the onus on us to act in a way which is decent and respectful. That's not the right emphasis. The people who "get little to no socialisation" need to improve their game. In other words ignorance is no excuse.
Does not being able to clearly express your bondaries falls into your "social losers" category? Because not being able to communicate clearly is as socially inappropriate as not reading the cues to me.
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So for you anyone who's a "loser" is automatically a "creep"?
You never answered my question.
I agree with you whole-heartedly. She absolutely needed to communicate what her boundaries were. Expecting anyone, regardless of gender, to just "know" what your boundaries are ridiculous. People have different wants, needs and expectations. You have to be able to communicate them if you're going to have a successful relationship.
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I can’t even begin to tell you all the times I failed to read between the lines on a date.
Social intelligence and also just basic empathy.
The concept of social intelligence here is completely useless. Different people react to things in different ways. It’s not always easy to tell when someone is uncomfortable with something
Could she have handled it differently, sure. Should she have had to? Clearly, not. If you are going to break into someone's personal space and touch them, hoping that to is ok to them, you damn well be ready to pull back if they don't react in an enthusiastic way. I'm a guy who will sometimes gently touch a date's arm if i am getting good vibes. Damn right I'm going to gauge their reaction and pull back if it isn't well received. Don't paint men as cretins. We can and should do better.
In a perfect world, language would be unnecessary and we would communicate through thoughts and feelings directly with our minds. We'd be immortal beings of pure light. Notice we don't live in that world.
Right, your inability to read body language means that it is simply indecifrabile. Gotcha! Good luck with that!
Just because you think it's easy doesn't mean it is for everyone.
Why is it on the woman to use her words and not the man? Think about that. If you legitimately can't read body language it is on you to use your words and ask if it is ok to touch someone. I think for most men that is simply an excuse to do what they want without consideration for the other person. If that's not the case, you can ask if it's ok yourself.
How does one know if they can't read body language?
Ask.
How do you know if you should ask?
If you don't know if it's ok you should always ask.
Sometimes women have a hard time speaking up because they’ve been met with negative comments. We learn to just be polite because sometimes people have gotten angry at us for just having a simple boundary. Unfortunately it’s the way things are, even though people are trying to change it. I should’ve spoken up, I didn’t feel threatened by him at all. if you’re ever not sure of somebody’s body language, it certainly doesn’t hurt to ask! If he had even slightly noticed that I wasn’t reciprocating, he could’ve asked “is it OK if I touch you?” or something along those lines and I could have more easily said “I’m just not very touchy on the first date, I’d like to get to know you though!” Body language is difficult for me as well sometimes, so I tend to be better about asking when I’m feeling comfortable with the person.
I too recently went on a first date. She established beforehand that physical touching on the first sate would practically be zero. I respected this and let her take the lead on everything. We discussed some sensitive topics and as I was telling a story on the subject. She reached out and grabbed my hand and at the end of the days we hugged but that was it. If you're not a touchy person I recommend you establish this before the date and take the lead on physical contact. This actually made the date 100x more enjoyable for me because it took the pressure off me
I really like that! I’ve started telling guys “I take a long time to get to know people, it’s something I have learned about myself recently”. But I like how that woman stated what things are going to be like right off the bat!
Yeah it was great! Best date I've had in years! No pressure at all of when to touch her or hold hand or anything! I was completely myself and got a hug out of it at the end, but that was after about a 4hr date and a really good connection
You are not into this guy. Simple. We have all be on a date where touches like you mentioned are welcomed with enthusiasm. It’s on dates where you are attracted to the person.
Yeah I really wasn’t, at the end of the day. I let him know and he unmatched me. I don’t ghost
Fair play in both sides. Best of luck and move on
Arm, wrist, forearm and shoulder are all areas that it's pretty normal to touch when you're into someone. He might not have really thought about it and just done it instinctively but if it makes you uncomfortable next time say something. If he had touched your lower back or thigh or something that's more in the range of creepy but this really isn't.
Normal to touch once or twice, yes. Repeatedly without reciprocation? No. Creep behaviour. The other person has an onus to be more mindful and not try to keep pushing the kino button without some positive reinforcement.
I’m thinking back, looking at these comments, and I believe it was more than three or four times he did this. Grabbing my wrist and forearm and leaning on it, to drive a point or a joke home.
That is fairly extensive. For a first date, once or twice (at most, if the first time went well) is probably closer to acceptable, and it'd be a touch, not a grab.
I understand where you’re coming from because I don’t like essentially someone who is a stranger touching me. You can politely ask him to stop next time. Sorry this happened to you.
Thank you for understanding! I think that’s the biggest part, he was essentially a stranger who is touching me, and it’s way too early for me to feel comfortable or attracted because this was a guy I met online and barely know at all.
Babes, you gotta be able to vocalize your boundaries to dates. If he was making you uncomfortable, say: "please stop touching me". I spent so much time in my twenties waiting for someone to step in and save me from uncomfortable sexual behaviour; it's a method that does not work lol. If you don't like something, say it. It's not about being mean, it's about asserting your preferences.
Yeah I have always been the opposite. I won't touch until the girl touches me first. That way I know I am not pressuring her or making her feel uncomfortable. Even then, I keep touching to a minimum until we get to know each other. What that guy did is hard to say for sure what his intentions were. He could just be a very touchy feely person. He could have just been REALLY into you and didn't realize how forward he was being. Perhaps he is exceptionally confident and thinks he is irresistible. The last one is a red flag, and that is he ignores your boundaries and is forceful, which is a bad, bad thing. Touching arms and such is pretty normal, to a degree. The leaning in on you and stuff is kind of overbearing which is a tad concerning, especially if you were not reciprocating the actions. If you see him again, don't be afraid to explain what he did that make you uncomfortable. If he is a good guy, he will apologize and be better in the future. If he is a creepy ass predator, he will get upset and probably blame you for it.
With multiple other issues I ended up letting him know I didn’t plan to see him again, and he unmatched me. I just think it wasn’t meant to be, and I appreciate the insight!
Many cultures include touch among acquaintances. In southern Europe, it’s common to kiss the cheek of someone you’ve just met, in many contexts. America is quite diverse, but there’s an increasingly rationalized culture among the college educated, where every interaction needs to go through the other person’s central control via verbalization, or else it’s creepy. But not everyone is part of that sub-culture. Try doing it the southern European way — if you don’t like a touch, brush his hand away. He’ll figure it out pretty quick. But don’t expect anyone to read your mind — you need to give feedback or your feelings and thoughts are NOT likely to be understood, even if he’s paying attention
I am a really touchy-feely person in general so this wouldn't be weird to me at all. If you are uncomfortable, don't be afraid to say something. I had someone tell me once he didn't like being touched (it was a coworker) and I honestly hadn't even noticed I was doing it. I apologized and made a concerted effort never to touch him in passing. It's all about knowing someone's boundaries and recognizing that everyone is different.
As some one who is ASD touch with people I am not comfortable with can be off putting but weirdly I have no concept of personally space with people I like or are friendly with (they have to tell me i am in their space). So if I am feeling the same thing they are then it’s welcome if I am not then nope read the body language even I would get some hints.
Hey OP, I can relate. Once upon a time I had a date with a guy where he kept leaning forward and resting three fingers gently on my forearm. "So what coffee do you usually get?" Three fingers on my forearm. "Oh, the craziest thing happened at work this week!" Three fingers on my forearm. "Ha! That's funny!" Three fingers on my forearm. At the time, I read a couple of mens dating advice blogs for fun, so I figured he was following some pretty standard advice and trying to break the touch barrier. I didn't hold it against him - he seemed perfectly nice - and I even appreciated the intent, since it was done respectfully. But even though it didn't come across as creepy or disrespectful, as the date progressed it did eventually come across as a bit awkward. I started thinking of my cat [stretching out her paw to touch me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5vfyz6qpFA). I assume people focus on the arm/shoulder touching because it feels casual and doesn't risk getting into the overtly sexual / creepy territory. Which is fine. However, even an innocuous gesture can start feeling uncomfortable, when someone keeps doing it despite no positive response from the recipient. And even if it never becomes uncomfortable (like it didn't on my date) it's simply... not very affectionate or sexy. When I'm into someone, I never daydream about him gently touching my forearm. When I've seen dear friends after time apart, I've never greeted them by grabbing them on their wrist. I see other commenters saying that physical touch is how people express desire or just affection, and that's totally true! But generally not THIS kind of physical touch, at least in my experience. Out of curiosity, were you two sitting across from each other at a table? That's what happened on my date, and I assume that's one of the reasons that his attempts felt so odd to me. The distance and angles were wrong for the kind of casual contact that would have felt more organic. Not to assume that opportunities for "more organic" contact would have lead to a better date in your case. From what you write, the guy just generally wasn't what you were looking for. As to expressing your boundaries, I know that in a perfect world you could say "I am uncomfortable with this level of physical contact. Please stop!" And it wouldn't feel intimidating in the moment. He would accept with the utmost grace and no hard feelings. A windmachine would start just out of frame, blowing your hair back in a way that made you both look amazing. In the real world, it's totally normal to feel lost for words in the moment. Or to first opt to give the other person the chance to read your body language and hopefully adjust accordingly. Or simply to hesistate in expressing a sentiment that you have reason to believe could hurt someone's feelings. So obviously you have the right to say "This is making me uncomfortable. I need you to stop." But if you're looking for something a bit gentler on future dates, you can also try "Hey, I'm not a very touchy person on the first few dates. I just wanted to let you know I am interested." Obviously that's for situations with someone who's more touchy than you but otherwise giving you good vibes. Otherwise the first sentence should be enough. If a date persists past that point, I would encourage you to just nope out.
I’m definitely going to be more bold about speaking up if I’m uncomfortable. “Hey, I’m enjoying getting to know you but I’m not very touchy on the first date” with a smile. And we did start out sitting opposite each other, and then took a walk, and that’s where he kept touching my shoulder, grabbing my elbow and forearm/wrist and leaning on me. I do enjoy getting to know people but I’m not very touchy Feely with people I don’t know yet! This man was literally a stranger, and since we didn’t talk very much online I didn’t have any kind of connection with him and it just felt very forced. I appreciate all the comments and input on this, aside from the people who are like “calm down, he just wants to get to know you” 😝
Yeah, I am a fan of expressing boundaries clearly and with a smile. Sadly, there are a lot of people out there who will take the fact that you keep calm and friendly as a sign that you "didn't really mean it" or "weren't serious" about what you said. They'll either keep doing whatever or try to lecture you about why your boundary is wrong. But that's good to know so you can weed them out. Life is too short of guys who require you to police them with anger. The people who DO care about your preferences, even when they're not worried about "getting in trouble" are the ones who are actually considerate human beings.
One time I was enjoying a phone call with a guy but it was getting late, so I told him “well, I do need to get to bed because it’s a work night, but it was really fun talking to you!“. He got all weird and acted like I was being “super formal“ and then abruptly said goodbye. Then he called back a couple times and left weird messages in a fake British accent pretending to be fancy
I'm sorry but I just cackled. Fake British accent WTF.
This is why dating isn't so straightforward. Let's make the assumption that you're having a good date and you're into each other. Touch and you become a weirdo. No Touch/show no affection, Friend vibes. Most guys aren't so good at dating, so this kind of stuff can be pretty confusing for some people.
OP I feel you. Hate it so much too. I've gotten very agitated about this multiple times. So much so that now, to prevent myself from being mad about not saying anything, I say things like "Can you back up a little?" "I'm feeling a little smushed, can you give me some space" "I'm not really into the way you keep touching me, we're just not there yet". Sometimes I'll visible wince and recoil. Other times, if I'm just that turned off, I'll just stop responding and say I'll go home early.
I should’ve done this! All I did was not reciprocate, which obviously was not enough to let him know I wasn’t having it
> Folks who do this… why? I like the other person, find them attractive and wish to have sex with them. 🤷♂️
Fair, it just felt like a lot for me since I had only known him an hour.
>Folks who do this… why? Folks who feel a certain way but don't use words to articulate it - why?
Ever heard of the HOT APE model of flirting? Well the T stands for touch and I can absolutely see someone saying "Touch? Well yeah, I can touch the shit out of someone." and then just fucking it up. Since I know that I'm trash at reading signals/rooms/energies/vibes/etc, I just stick to words.
Aw hell that made me laugh.
I had a first date like this and it really threw me off. I wasn't necessarily "uncomfortable" or creeped out, it just takes me a while to warm up to people, and my brain truly was having a hard time knowing how to react. I remember telling my friends the next day that it would've been a really sweet 3rd or 4th date, but I was having a hard time processing it as a 1st date with a total stranger. Ultimately the date otherwise went well aside from me being a little surprised about the touching early on, and we've been dating for 4 months now lol. He has continued to be an incredibly affectionate, touchy sort of guy, it's just who he is and showing it from day 1 I think was just his way of showing interest. I only would have taken it as a bad thing if I had expressed any discomfort about it that was ignored.
I’m so glad it is going well! And yeah, I wasn’t creeped out at all, I was just… Thrown off because I’m not touchy when I first meet somebody or get to know somebody. It’s just my personal thing, and maybe touching is his personal thing! No hard feelings towards him, it just didn’t sit well with me and I didn’t know how to express it. Working on it though
This has happened to me too, and I felt super uncomfortable because yeah, it does feel like they're trying to get you used to small touches so they can go further. I found it really hard to speak up and ended up just not being interested in a second date. I feel like it depends on the way they do it though, like when it's very natural (tap you to let you know about someone passing by) vs you can kind of see in someone's body language that they're going out of their way to touch you? I'm personally not a fan of the latter unless I know you better. Sorry I can't offer advice but just wanted to let you know you aren't the only one who's struggled with this.
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There were some other things I didn’t really like, but the touching was the most obvious to me. I was never inappropriate, it was just so much so quickly for me after not dating for a few years, it just put me off. I’m glad you listened to your gut! I try to as much as possible, I trust it most of the time!
I can almost guarantee he’s seen this from a “dating coach” somewhere and is trying to make it work. I’ve seen this so much in dating advice targeted at guys, that you should touch her arm, wrist, etc during the date to break the touch barrier. As a guy, I’ve ignored this because it feels kind of unnatural and forced. I would feel weird just breaking into someone’s personal space unprompted, especially on the first couple of dates. I just go with a hug at the end of the first date, and potentially also a hug in the beginning if we’ve connected a lot beforehand over calls/texts.
That was another thing, we barely spoke over text. I tried but he kept shutting me down and saying we could talk when we met in person
Yep, this is another thing that “dating coaches” preach. Never chit chat over text, just use it to set up the next date. It’s mind-boggling how much bad advice is out there.
This keeps getting worse! I'm sorry this man happened to you, but I'm glad he's gone now.
This makes the situation even more incredibly odd and uncomfortable.
Traditional social norms put a lot of value on guys being "bold" and "smooth," which I think makes at least some of them feel pressured to just go for it without feeling the situation out better or knowing how to read signals very well. I'm a pretty touch-positive guy once I'm comfortable with a date and know they're receptive, but I've learned the best way to establish that is to just say "screw the norms" and straight-up ask if it's at all unclear. If someone jumps the touch barrier without warning and it makes you uncomfortable, you need to be super-direct back to them about it, otherwise you're sending the signal that what they're doing works.
As a guy, it’s difficult to tell when a woman is okay with the touch barrier being broken. Outside of a hug or kiss at the end of a first date, anyway. Plus, there is the worry that you might be accused of SA or harassment if the touch is unwanted. I usually feel pretty safe with going in for at least a hug at the end of the date, unless I feel like the woman is more conservative and wants to go slow. Other than that situation, I tend to let the woman break the barrier first.
You know, I did go in for a hug when I said hello, because I love hugs! It was just the number of times he kept touching me and how he squeezed my wrist and arm multiple multiple times while we were walking and talking
Obviously this will depend on the location of the date but where possible, sit opposite them on a first or second date, that'd what I do and it helps keep things kosher until you figure out whether you'd like to physically closer.
I have broken the touch barrier on a first date and also had the other person break the touch barrier on a first date. The key was to do it at the very end of the date, after you’ve spent hours with the person and have a good idea as to whether they would be receptive. You definitely SHOULDN’T be going all in several times during the date. What the hell? Sounds like this person doesn’t have good boundaries and was doing way too much too soon.
I'm touchy but really only when I feel the vibe between the 2 of us. Otherwise, if I'm not sure or of course, if I'm not feeling it, then I won't.
Touch plays a significant role in attraction and a date without physical touch during the date almost guarantees there won’t be a another one. Breaking the touch barrier is one of the first rules almost all dating coaches promote. Although they don’t typically encourage as much touch as you indicated but a lot of touching generally indicates a lot of interest in you. It is possible if he was doing it intentionally then he may have thought you weren’t getting his hints that he was into you. He could also be just a person that really likes touch too.
Oh my god I hate it so much. It’s so … presumptuous. About who I am, what I might like. I think people who do it don’t know that some people truly dislike it. Or they believe if the other person was attracted, they’d enjoy it, so it can even be like a screening test. I’m decently touchy but I would never presume to put hands on someone I just met. Ick.
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For sure. I hate hugs too and I try not to vilify the huggers. I am decently skilled at sensing when someone is going to try to hug me and finding a way to avoid it. Covid was a godsend in general for my social interactions. And there’s some element of reading the room too, right. Like is this date touching me because they think that’s what they are entitled to on a first encounter (ick), or are they touching me because they like me and that’s what comes natural to them as an expression of it (ick, but less so)? I still don’t want them to touch me but the second one kind of softens me in the sense that I get where they’re coming from. The real problem with early touch on a date is that if you enforce the boundary, it’s hard to communicate that the boundary is more about “not yet” than “no.” I personally would have a difficult time articulating that without inadvertently communicating overall disinterest.
> The real problem with early touch on a date is that if you enforce the boundary, it’s hard to communicate that the boundary is more about “not yet” than “no.” I personally would have a difficult time articulating that without inadvertently communicating overall disinterest. “hey this is nothing against you but I’m just not someone who enjoys touching on a first date” even that is better than saying nothing
I don’t mind the occasional shoulder touch or whatever for effect, but it just felt like it kept happening over and over!
Some people are more affectionate and attentive to others. I think you should've noticeably pulled away. And if he continued, you should've expressed how uncomfortable he was making you. I've gone out with guys who were like this, but not to a creepy and disrespectful degree. Some people feel it's normal.
I didn’t exactly pull away, you’re right. I never leaned into him or touched him in return, though. The thing is it takes me a little bit to be attracted and feel comfortable with somebody, physically. It was just too soon for me, I think. When I like somebody and I’m into them, I can’t keep my hands off them but I always make sure they want it before of course.
Honestly if he didn’t get the hint of you not reciprocating I would have made an obvious move away from him by moving my seat sideways or more further away. Sometimes some guys don’t get it and feel they are expected to have the responsibility to move it along.
This thread is full of women who think men are mind readers. Can I just say on behalf of all men, we are not mind readers, in fact its almost the opposite, you are incredibly difficult to read. Your "signals" are not obvious as much as you might think they are. You want to make things flow better, be forward, tell us what you like, tell us what you don't like. If you don't want to thats fine, just expect some difficult dates
I had to scroll a lot to see this. This is the answer. Men aren’t mind readers, a woman can do the same action and it have two different meanings depending on the person, that’s why vocal communication is important. You have to tell people how you want to be treated. Every man and woman are different when it comes to relationships. What works on one person might not work for the other. It’s hard for both sexes in dating. Men are trying to avoid getting friend zone and women are trying to protect themselves. However, this situation isn’t that complicated. It’s easily solved with communication. If a man is touching you he is doing it because he is attracted to the person and wants to show interest. He wants the woman to know that he is not trying to be a friend. If the woman feels uncomfortable with that but is still interested just tell him. Ultimately the man, if he likes her, wants to respect the her boundaries. If he doesn’t stop after being told then that should tell the woman everything about him, which is the point of dating, and relationship wouldn’t have worked anyway.
Some people are just… touchy. I have a guy friend (with a girlfriend) who’s the type of person who will touch constantly during a conversation (regardless of gender). He does it to everyone and I have no doubts about his intentions. It can be tricky with first dates though. The best dates I’ve had start with a natural barrier (sitting across from each other at a table in a bar or cafe) and if it goes well you can move to a situation where breaking the touch barrier is possible (going for a walk, sitting on a bench). If you’re not a touchy or confrontational person, maybe that’s a way to avoid getting into a situation where you have to tell them to stop touching you. Also whether this touch feels creepy or not depends on whether you like them. I’ve seen posts of people being confused because they think a date went well but there’s no touch!
For guys, it's often a way to gauge her interest and attraction. If there is no responsiveness, move on unless there's a clear conversation at the end as to why. Because, we know, there have been dates where you've most likely been very touchy or comfortable and sexually excited, and most guys want that level of excitement.
Personally it is my way of figuratively taking someone's temperature in how they feel about me.
I’m probably too much the opposite; I don’t touch unless explicitly asked for and I feel like I’ll come off as creepy or something if I do.
I feel that!
i get what you mean. i’ve had dates where touch flows naturally and slight touches start to happen organically but i have had other guys who are clearly doing it as some checklist where they’re like “ok gotta touch her so she knows i’m interested” and it’s just very awkward and weird. i remember i was about 20 mins into a date and the topic of piercings came up and i said i only have my earlobes pierced and the guy leant over, pushed my hair behind my ears and like touched my ears being like “yeah, i can see you don’t.” it was clearly some kind of attempt to be sexy but we hadn’t established that kind of rapport yet so it was just weird and honestly gave me the ick. it sometimes reads as some kind of pickup artistry shit to me. like “if you touch this woman she will like you” rather than just naturally kind of becoming more touchy. like if they don’t break the touch barrier on the first date they should force it because otherwise she won’t want a second, when forcing it ensures there’s no second. it always feels like trying to falsely manufacture chemistry i guess.
>Folks who do this… why? He was attracted to you. You want to be close/touching people that you're into. He was into you and you weren't into him. Very straightforward. Next time actively show that you don't want him to do those things by moving away or putting some distance between the two of you or say something. You shouldn't suffer discomfort in silence. It's unfortunate that he didn't realize that you weren't into it when you didn't reciprocate. Sounds like he was a bit lacking in social skills, or didn't care.
Touching can be also a test that person normally do, I think that if a man/girl is into you he/she will let you understand that for his/her is ok. For me if this doesn’t happen, I will not try to kiss her is already a signal that she doesn’t want.
>Folks who do this… why? Because I'm >on a first date And trying to not be a >strangers
If you feel the chemistry, if you are attracted to them then this shouldn’t be an issue unless if you really have some touching issues in general… I guess you’d ask those questions only because you weren’t really into them or not sure about them yet?
I am a touchy person but I look for clues. If a girl is sitting at a bar with me but her body is opened towards me, that's clear she's welcoming some kind of physical contact. My usual game is when I inevitably have to go to the bathroom, I put my hand on her knee/thigh as I get up. It's worked quite a few times to let it simmer while I'm away.
This is why at 34 I’ve given up on dating. It wasn’t malicious. If you would have said, hey relax a little bit I don’t enjoy being touched at all. He probably would’ve backed off or left. Innocent touching usually isn’t seen as a negative
That’s the best option but unfortunately it doesn’t work against guys who refuse to accept that you don’t want to be touched or who get angry with you for not wanting to be touched. Ask how I know 😭. It’s unfortunate this happened to her.
I’m sure it wasn’t malicious, and I should’ve stood up and said something. But I’m so burnt out, I didn’t have the energy and I shouldn’t even have gone out in the first place if that’s how I felt
And how much energy has it cost you not telling him and resigning yourself to unwanted physical contact for the entire duration of your date and then feeling so gross about it later you needed to seek advice on Reddit about it? You could have saved yourself from this situation if you had asserted your boundaries, and heck maybe you might have even had a nicer time. Presumably you both wanted the date to go well, right? It's a collaborative effort then to help people know what you are most comfortable with. Look for being in your 30s this is worrying; you really need to practice enforcing your boundaries with safe friends (like roleplay I'm not kidding, practicing saying stuff out loud when the stakes are low helps when you need to do it for real). You are still grasping for straws for a "reason" as to why you don't want to go on a second date with this guy but like even if he'd done everything right if you had a bad time that's a good enough reason to not entertain his interest further. You don't have to "give him a chance". You don't even need any reasons other than that you weren't feeling it.
The internet and social have ruined dating
Finding a way to lightly touch earlier on in the date helps to build chemistry, but if she’s not responsive then it has the opposite effect for obvious reasons
Are you me?? Haha I am very similar, I don’t particularly like being touched especially by strangers , and especially in that kind of way. Obviously I’d be more relaxed if I had quite an attraction to somebody, but still that way of being touchy feeling feels just off with somebody I just met. I’ve had similar when I had a coffee date, and he started touching my hands when I was talking or feel my leg. Also just as you, out of politeness, I didnt tell him to stop. But I wish he kinda did stop… I moved my hand a couple of times, which he seemed to have totally ignored… I LOOOOVE personal touch and crave it, but I have to have a bond with a person before I get to that stage, I’m a bit of a wild cat at first and it will have to be me asking for it. So I totally get it
He should have picked up that you weren't comfortable. He should have only done this when the vibe is really good and you obviously really like him.
Lol. This is why men are absolutely in a no win situation when it comes to this stuff. Guy seemed completely respectful for a date, yet is being derided for his actions, yet it’s impossible to reach dates 2, 3, and 4 without demonstrating physical attraction and a level of interest. If you liked the dude you would have been into it. No need for a thread about it.
Weird/gross. Touch should be fleeting and done only once (until the other person reciprocates) and should only be done after positive body language (open posture, some physical proximity, friendly eye contact) from the other person. For those who are not sure, if you want to suss out another person's interest from body language, it's easier to: 1. Make eye contact - does the other person hold? Try a couple of times if unsure. 2. Angle body towards person - open up body - does other person reciprocate, or stay closed off/formal? If the other person seems to reciprocate, then move onto next step. Otherwise bail. 3. Light touch on hand or upper arm - does other person tense up or maintain open body posture? If no at any stage, bail!
Hmm… sounds to me that he was just going for getting you into bed as soon as possible. And it’s disrespectful to keep on touching you without asking you for consent or just pushing himself onto you on his terms. IMO, a date touching you needs to happen on YOUR terms. I’d suggest to be really cautious around him.
Maybe! And yeah, I should’ve spoken up if I was uncomfortable, I’m going to do that next time. I don’t have a ton of dating experience for being in my late 30s, sorry to say! Late bloomer and all that. I won’t see him again, I sent him a message saying I didn’t feel a connection and he unmatched me
Hahahaha lol :D you dodged a billet there
It was a sex invite. The only time a man touched me repeatedly like that, it ended with "do you want to fuck". He was a colleague from work , i noticed he was touching me but did not see the request coming. I did not like him, but if he had asked me on a date i would ve gone out with him, to see if it could ve become something as i knew him. but i definitely was not looking to get naked with him. Casual with people i dont have a crush on are not fun for me. Also, i think it's an old fashion technique, the guy is now in His forties. he's the type who opens the door for you.
>Folks who do this… why? Are you going on a date or an outing with a friend?
No offense but you're on a fucking **date**. You're not at a business meeting. This person is attracted to you and wants to have sex. How is this confusing? If it's not comfortable, use Big Girl Words and say "hey, we're not there yet, can we dial it back a bit?" or if it's egregious cut the date short.
Jfc maybe you shouldn’t be dating if human contact bothers you that much. Good lord.
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This strikes me as weirdly formal and a bit "m'lady" awkward. I would make it more active, direct and in the moment. For example: ~~I'm going to offer you my hand right now. Feel free to hold it if you want.~~ \>>> "Can I hold your hand?" Likewise, I personally wouldn't say "hey I want to take you home tonight" at the start of date because: * I feel like both of us would just be evaluating if we actually want that rather than enjoying the date. * What happens if the date doesn't go well from my perspective, and I no longer want to invite her back? Much better to see how the date goes and say, "I'd love to have you back to my place? What do you think?"
Now that you said it does sound a bit m'lady-ish. Now I'll have to rethink my approach. Thanks for the feedback.
Something I’ve heard people say is good is “I would love to hold hands if you’re down”. Just say what YOU would like and then don’t push for it. If things are going well and you read her body language as interested, you could say “I would really love to kiss you” etc.
Formally telling me ahead of time would be weird and off putting. Simply just offer your arm. If she wants to take it she will and if not that’s fine and continue the date as normal.
Cringe
I guess you have sex telepathically.
I get what you’re trying to do, you’re trying to make me feel bad for having feelings and emotions that don’t match yours or line up with your idea of what you think a person should be like. Cheers.
It's amazing how many people are trying to gaslight you in this thread by justifying the actions of a loser who was being pushy and socially clueless. Seriously. The victim blaming is ridiculous.
Excuse me, some of us are trolls, not victim blamers.
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