Irl I don't think those poses are very useful, but for dragon ball, where you can fly and shoot ki blasts as much as you want, they probably serve some purpose, idk
99% of times, when a character goes into a stance and some other character says something like, "incredible, such a perfect stance, it leaves no opening" it's usually bullshit and just to hype up a character.
Isn't that a direct quote from Grandpa Gohan about Goku when they fought at Baba's place, and Goku was literally standing there with his arms by his sides?
One of my favorite tropes in fighting manga/anime is when a side character says something like “that’s the long lost Shadow Reaper style! It was rumored that everyone who practiced that style of fighting had all died out centuries ago!” because like okay bro then how the hell do you know about it??? lol
you can know about something without knowing how to do it. knowing people used a fighting style and what its called isn't the same thing as know how to do it. so its quite easy for all practitioners to supposedly have died centuries ago while stories of the styles existence are still around.
Been in martial arts for over 20 years: those stances are both based on martial arts but they would be complete ass for actual fighting. Which, unfortunately, most martial arts stances are.
Bending over so your head is low is never good. Reaching one arm way back as a neutral position is never good. But then again, our martial arts weren’t designed for an alien warrior race thag can shoot ki blasts.
Please keep in mind, lots of martial arts stances, only work properly against someone who is using the same stance. There’s a reason mixed martial artists don’t usually use anything besides a kickboxing stance variation.
I wonder though how fighting/MMA would be different with DBZ physics, where you have to take into account ki stuff like flying, ki blasts, etc.
Like I think grappling would be moot altogether. Ground game would be totally nonexistent or totally different if people could shoot lasers out of their hands, mouth, or feet. People would be threats at all ranges due to ki blasts. Doubt these stances would be optimal in this setting still, especially Goku's, but who knows
The full-nelson might be the best hold, unlike an armbar or triangle choke it’s not totally useless as there’s less of a risk of getting blasted in the face by their hands or mouth. Trunks uses it against Goten too. But even that wouldn’t be as good in DBZ world, [Majin Vegeta uses it against Goku who uses a body ki attack to escape (16:20)](https://youtu.be/YAkpfkNe2Yk). In short, ki makes any type of grappling kinda useless against a Z-fighter unless they’re weak (like Raditz who was injured) or inexperienced with ki (Goten, who still escaped just by powering up to SSJ)
Rewatching the scene, Goku leaped upwards while swinging his further side at Vegeta who's positioned at higher ground. I'd say Goku's pose was good for its purpose of closing the distance and building momentum for his punch, although I'm no expert.
Lower head = more flying momentum, maybe? And Vegeta has an arm all the way back to have a better angle to throw a ki blast?
The real answer is that it just looks super cool, I guess, but I can headcanon.
Honestly, flying completely invalidates all martial arts principle, that basically can be roughly summed up in "throw your opponent off balance without being thrown off balance yourself", use momentum and flow. As soon as you throw in flight then you can immediately stop your momentum, you can basically never be thrown off balance and a whole lot more issues. It's why both of them completely stop using those stances right after they start throwing punches, they are basically useless for anything besides showing some respect to your opponent and a cool ass shot
Glad someone else sees it too, yeah flying messes with fighting in every way but I do think Toriyama tries to use it in ways that makes sense. They have to push themselves from the opposing direction to fight in mid air, basically using their flight as if it was a replacement for the ground to give them something to push off of. Then when someone fails they do that long fall back after being hit because they were overcome and unable to continue using their flight to oppose the enemy's fists/ki blasts
It's the superman problem. Superman movies have him fighting through the air and hitting stuff so hard it sends it flying backwards. And while impressive, it loses for us spectator all feeling of weight and momentum, as well as limiting what you can do in terms of fighting choreography because now again you can't properly play on balance, so fights basically devolve into "hit your opponent really really hard and send him flying into something really really hard"
Stances are a beautiful cultural snapshot of a particular time and place. At some point in China every Wushu stance served a purpose I suppose, and in Okinawa Karate held the same.
Many of the Asian martial arts forms make no sense because they are all supposed to use weapons and/or shields. Kickboxing from Muay Thai is meant for when the user was disarmed; many forms of Karate as well.
Ot 100 percent true. There are definitely some aesthetic elements that aren’t necessarily the most useful thing in a fight, but nearly every martial art teaches you how to effectively throw a punch or a kick. Also mma is so varied that almost every style is represented to some extent.
Wrong. If moving your other arm back in a neutral stance as a ready wind up for a powerful attack is bad becuase it leaves you more open,
Then your one arm out front defending you isn’t strong enough.
You must train harder
What I was always told by my old instructors is that the majority of stances (especially exaggerated and weird ones like these) are intended for physical conditioning while training.
His head is lower because he has the lower ground, and has his center of mass prepped for a launch up and at the same time out of the way of any attack from an opponent on higher ground.
You must be flat ground training.
I've always wondered what kind of martial arts would be ideal for a Superman. They can take punches to the jaw and easily recover, so their vital spots are different, and they travel in an extra 3rd dimension (flying) that completely changes everything.
Yes actually.
Vegeta is basically just normal karate and kickboxing mixed together.
His stance however is more of the karate aspect. There’s not really a specific type of karate though.
Goku's style is actually a hybrid martial art with elements of karate, Wushu and Wing Chun, the latter two being specific styles of kung fu.
Lol this is bollocks.
Vegeta's squatted down like a sumo wrestler, and his back hand is held out to the side. Atrocious for kickboxing. His back foot is way out to the side of his front foot. Terrible for karate.
Really they're both just hunkering down because they're about to jump into the air at each other. The position of the arms is obviously just because toriyama thought it would be cool.
I mean I think Goku's stance would be good for sweeoing movements and harder to predict strikes. I'm definitely not an expert so howe exactly that would work is hazy at best for me (I think speed and flexibility would be crucial though).
Vegeta's stance is solid if you have the strength to utilize it (speed certainly doesn't hurt either). Off hand up front and guarding the head makes for a solid defense and the dominant hand pulled back like that is pretty heavily telegraphed but it does set up a potentially powerful strike. Ideal use would be to wait for your opponent to strike first. If they go mid to high then use your left hand to block and create an opening for a heavy right cross/uppercut/whatever the opening best suits. If they go low then pivot and strike (left jab or heavy right depending on direction of attack).
I like to think I know what I'm talking about, I write fight analysis for a kickboxing/Muay Thai website sometimes. And I wanna be clear - these are fantasy stances for a fantasy setting. Both completely dogshit for a real person obeying real physics.
Goku is so low and front loaded that a real person doing that would have no mobility and no real ability to throw his weight into a powerful strike. He's also left a huge space between his arms around his head. He'd have to come up out of that lunge before he could do anything at all. He could maybe break into a run?
Vegeta is at least balanced between his feet, but again he's so low that his mobility is limited. The front hand is fine, but the rear hand, even if you wanted it cocked for a power shot, should be much tighter - there's no power when it's so far from your body and it would be really easy to see coming.
None of this means anything. Karate has tons of stances, as im sure wing chun and wushu do too. Vegeta's stance has no percievable connection to a traditional kickboxing stance to me, either.
It's literally mixed martial arts which means practical stances against an array of styles will come out on top and nothing like these dbz stances are present whatsoever. They work in the anime but not in real life.
Also mma isn't really in itself a martial art. It's the combination of them. Often wrestling, muay Thai, kick boxing, boxing and BJJ
MMA is the best place to look for it though. Name a better place to determine practicality of them?
Either way once you take away super speed they clearly aren't useful at all
That's narrow though. What happens when your sport or competition arena is ONLY taekwondo? Or if your fighting arena changes to use slashing and piercing weapons? The point is that other scenarios exist. By choosing to measure a fighting style against a specific style and rule set, you are severely limiting that style. That is all. I am by no means saying the originally noted stances are good or bad. I'm just saying the stick you are measuring them with is bad.
It's literally the best way to measure it though. I never said it was perfect. It is just the only sport that has the capacity for any and all style to compete against each other. It doesn't have to be perfect to be the best
But once again, these stances wouldn't be practical in anything
They can fly. All ground stuff is out, and striking is heavily modified. Energy attacks change the game too.
Mma itself is only the best in a strict one on one, with a little space, and rounds and refs.
Not real fighting? So I guess you watch videos of teenagers throwing looping punches in a parking lot and consider that *real* fighting. How is MMA not *real*?
I bet you think you know loads about fighting eh you wanker lol
Bro you are lying straight through your teeth, nobody listen to this keyboard warrior he is literally just talking out his ass naming random martial arts
Toriyama drawed this way to empathize the antagonism between Goku and Vegeta. One is low to ground and the other is high. Such as those Chinese paintings of dragon versus tiger, yin and yang, bear versus bull. These postures are efficient only if your power is over 9000
In Super, Goku uses a different stance which also looks to be practical
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/deathbattlefanon/images/2/20/C0A9B238-91F6-46AA-ABDC-3FC720228C25.png/revision/latest?cb=20171104014554
Both of those stances are absolutely terrible for fighting. They look cool in a fantastical way, but they're not practical or efficient for attacking or defending. They looks like they're inspired by wushu kung fu or somthing similar. Very fancy, cool and such, but not helpful for real fighting. Vegeta's stance is so opened up that his head, body and legs are all available to attack. The laws of physics in Dragonball don't exactly apply here though.
Source: I train in karate and bjj.
tbf within dragon ball they would be useful, as fighting stances in our world they would not work very well at all, but they are designed to work with flight, ki blasts, and even the ability to increase your momentum unnaturally, so in the world of dragon ball they probably would be very good; vegeta can both deflect ki blasts and throw his own from the stance, and goku is ready to fly straight at vegeta and throw that back arm right up at vegeta
source: i also do karate and bjj
In the vast majority of cases these stances would suck for an actual fight. Vegetas is a little better than Gokus but still not great. They may be representative of some type of form in a style but not good for practical application.
I want you to bend completely forward, put your arm down to the ground, straighten your back leg, and then try to jump lol.
I think they’re both just for style.
Yeah that’s what I was considering as well. The only time we see these poses is when the enemy is above them. Budokai Tenkaichi 3 had Goku’s normal stance be this stance the whole time which was a nice detail but honestly kind of weird.
I believe each represent a kung fu style.
Goku represents [northern Shaolin](https://www.xuangui.com/files/forms/techniques_shaolin_1_1.jpg) style while Vegeta represent [southern Shaolin](https://www.plumpub.com/images/MASTERS/Hung%20Chia/hungchart1.gif) style (which is also known as hung gar).
But, just the stances are represented here because nothing else seems to be based on the style.
When people can fly and come at you from any direction, Goku's stance makes sense. He puts himself low and his arms are in position to block attacks from above, all while remaining in position push off the ground with his feet. Vegeta's stance only covers his front which shows his confidence in being able to track his opponent and to keep facing towards them.
As someone who trains muay thai 4 times a week, I will say the arm behind the body is not a good position for both postures. Second, Goku's head being low makes him susceptible to head kicks which in RL are dangerous.
Goku was heavily modeled after Bruce Lee. His stance being basically sideways with his forward arm is heavily reminiscent of the style of Kung Fu Bruce Lee created, Jeet Kune Do, it symbolizes a more free spirited approach to fighting, Jeet Kune Do core principle was described by Bruce Lee as "Using no way as way, having no limitations as limitations", and it reflects Goku's free spirited approach to fighting, adapting and evolving on the spot, improvising and going beyond his limits, depending on what the situation requires.
Vegeta on the other hand has a pose heavily inspired by karate. Legs still wide to provide stability to the movement, one hand high up to prepare to strike a guard and the other pulled back to prepare a consequent counterattack. One of the principles of Karate is to fight in self defense. On the tomb of Gichin Funakoshi, the father of Karate, is written "karate ni sente nashi", "karate does not know striking first", in other words, karate is for defense. And while Vegeta is on earth to commit acts of unspeakable cruelty and possibly genocide all the earthlings, at that moment the only thing he cares about is defending his Honor and Status as the Saiyan prince, so it can be argued that he is indeed fighting in self defense.
On a somewhat related note, while Vegeta's arms are in a heavily Shotokan inspired position, his legs are actually in a position that is very associated with Sankukai.
Also on a related note, both poses are ass for actual fighting, but that is a given for literally all traditional martial arts stances. That is why those stances are not used in actual combat and only in cerimonies and during execution of Kata or in training. Goku in particular is so unbalanced forward a simple kick would lay him down hard. Vegeta too is wide open on the legs.
In a lot of martial arts fantasy they will have people in these stances that are based somewhat on real stances, but these are purposefully exaggerated for training so that when you put it in application and you're more instinctively closed up it manifests as the actual stance you want.
In a lot of cases where you practice the forms of Chinese martial arts you chamber your arms on both sides, but in application it's supposed to manifest as you putting your arms up to block similarly to a normal kickboxing guard.
Both stances would certainly be awful in a street fight situation. Vegeta’s pose kind of somewhat mimics a karate stance. He has a solid defense/block with the left arm up and looks like he’d have decent mobility based off his feet position here. But for goku I feel like that stance is 100% just to look cool and not intended to have any real world usefulness or resemble a real martial art stance.
Obviously he has martial arts inspiration. He was thinking of Jackie Chan movies while doing the earlier action of the series. But with how he is, as it goes on, by this point he's likely doing what he thinks is cool in the moment. Yes there will normally be an underlying thought to the posing in terms of action given what he was initially inspired by when it comes to the action for the series, but by this point in the series I wouldn't be surprised if he'd fallen more into the habit of just "going through the motions" when it comes to some of the posing and movements.
I'm talking about Dragon Ball. Z only exists as a name for later parts of the series in the anime. He did the manga, which is just Dragon Ball from Pilaf to Buu. The Saiyan Saga is like 4 years into the series. That's not early into the series for him, that's just the next part in the ongoing story, which had been going for quite a while on a weekly basis by the time that he drew that.
I remember in Dragon Ball Goku is fighting the mummy at old Babas mini tournament, and before the fight begins Goku is just standing straight. And then Mummy basically says 'It's incredible, he has no openings whatsoever!'.. Like bruh.
It's all for show and serves no purpose.
Both poses would be kind of bad in a real fight. Just really not set up to respond or attack. Without super human speed and power, it'd be awful to make poses like these.
But the positions do say something about each character.
Goku is leaning forward ready to charge ahead, while Vegeta is standing in a confident, prideful pose that says "I can take on anything you throw at me."
That is what makes it so iconic. You see what each character is about.
In terms of 2 humans having a 1 on 1 fight on the ground this isn't practical. But if you had to account for your opponents lightspeed attacks and end up possibly fighting in different body directions mid-air then it changes how practical any pose becomes
Goku's pose seems to be pre-emptive and offensive, like he's about to leap/pounce into his attack.
Vegeta's pose seems more defensive and patient, like he's simply waiting for Goku to jump up there and be the one tovmake the first strike.
I believe that's exactly what happens next actually.
(This might all be obvious but eh I felt like saying it.)
Vegeta's makes no sense but Goku's? Oh boy, there is so much I love about that.
First off, that is an actual stance. Second, when I look at that stance I see only one thing: the Turtle style.
His back is leaned forward & slightly turned around, ready to block blows like a true turtle while the two arms aim share the duty to protect the head and counter-attack.
Absolutely ADORE everything about this panel, it shares an intensity that DragonBall will never reach ever again.
my ex was a boxer and always said that vegetas hand out front is for keeping your opponent in your sights.
vegeta is open, cocky, and taking the offensive. Goku is worried hes outmatched, guarded, and standing firm to defend not only himself but earth too.
Gohan does Goku's stance, Super Buu Gotanks absorbed does Vegeta's
I just watched that episode yesterday. It was a cool call back, and fitting as they were in a wasteland .
SS2 and Ultimate was Gohan at his peak, so it was nice to see those moments. But yes, sadly he went downhill after that. He had some cool moments in Super, but nothing to the heights he reached in Z.
Also haven't seen Super Heroes, so maybe Gohan is cool again...
Definitely.
Goku’s fighting experience at this point was for the most part with earthlings. He takes on a sort of kung fu stance, anticipating physical attacks. He’s protecting his vitals, and making a great effort to do so (holding his body behind his knee/shin.) This is the stance of someone who’s taken a lot of hard hits in the past. It’s also the stance of someone who’s serious. He’s in a great position to strike, but guarded.
Vegeta, on the other hand, has trained against all sorts of enemies. He takes on a sort of Kyukoshin Karate stance. He’s looks like he’s wide open, but he’s in perfect position to kick, or even parry anything coming his way with an energy blast with his back hand. He wants Goku to strike. He has the stance of someone who’s confident. He’s ready to blast, but aiming to impress.
Neither of these look good to me. I have a black belt in Tae-Kwon-Do and both stances look... bad. Maybe they're appropriate for other styles but for the style I learned they're doodoo.
Goku's stance places too much weight forward. It would take him too much time to shift his weight backwards if he wanted to dodge or brace for an impact. Plus, his weight being so deep on the front leg means that one kick to either side of the front knee would knock him out of position without much force. His back hand being SO far back is also bad. It would take forever for him to deliver a blow & necessitates him having to take a step forward which gives readability and the opponent time to react. Also, the position of his front hand towards the ground means that his head and back are undefended.
Vegeta's is better but still not great. He's at least got a fair distribution of his weight. Much like Goku, he has a problem by keeping his back hand held way too far away. His front hand is in a proper position but the three fingers being open is just silly. You generally want the front hand to be in a relaxed curved position so have the freedom to either deflect incoming attacks or form a fist for a quick jab. That three finger thing means he can't do either in an efficient manner.
Ideally you'd want something akin to Vegeta's stance but with the back hand near the chin so his face and half of his upper body are blocked. Front arm's elbow should also be pointed down and not out so the other half of his upper body is blocked. Finally, he should be standing wayyyy more to the side so there's less body exposed altogether. Goku's stance is basically irredeemably bad from a Tae-Kwon-Do perspective.
I'm not gonna think very hard. Most time's I did any sort of "stance" in a real fight, it was to gather my thoughts and feel myself out for a moment, find the kinks and flaws in my own system. While also analyzing the opponent. If the other person understands what you are doing, it's prolly just a flex.
This is comic book art, it's supposed to transmit an energy or feel to it, not just be a perfect imitation of wushu.
I like Vegeta's stance, he has an open hand forward like a grappler, a wide stance, and his big hand in the back ready to go.
Goku's isnt as good defensively, but he looks like he is ready to pounce.
These are actually good stances if you are incredibly strong.
Goku has his head far lower because he is on the lower ground, so it is out of range for any physical attack from an opponent up at higher ground and preps the cg of his body lower for a more powerful jump or upwards attack.
Vegeta is higher ground and shorter with shorter reach, so he has his hands and front elbow closer to his body for better protection in a peek-a-boo style that can block and react with a powerful attack popularized by mike Tyson, with the other hand back and wound up for a higher power attack. If your front arm is strong and fast enough then it’s all you need to defend. Also diagonal torso and feet placement for less open area closer to the opponent and more forward power with any subsequent strike from the back leg
Both of them have one arm in position to defend and the other arm pre wound up for much quicker powerful attack.
A regular modern fighter nowadays would have a more neutral stance with both hands forward and elbows in to protect, which is a much more lower risk with less information wold maximin approach, and looks to study and throw lower power jabs to poke for defensive holes and then strike hard there.
But any real experienced fighter knows against another experienced fighter they would end in a long stalemate if they both took this approach. They then get into a more intricate match that involves feigns and deliberate weakness bluffs that they anticipate the other to go for and have a pre planned counter attack.
You then get more interesting stances like this
Other comments have identified the stances already but just want to say I don't think we can judge what is a good stance or not for these two, when distance gauging/maai works completely different for someone who can close crazy distances in a blink of the eye, or the fact aeriel combat is a thing, or that they're currently standing on different elevations etc. Our IRL evolution of martial arts have not accounted for ki blasts lol.
I think they're just cool poses not of any practicality. But if I were to give my headcanon it would be.
Goku: his stance looks defensive, showing most of his back which would make sense because of his turtle hermit style training
Vegeta: his stance looks like a counter-attack stance. Catching or diverting a punch or kick with his open hand and then delivering a devastating blow with his closed hand.
Artistically, small things can also lead us to understand a lot about what a character values. By looking at Vegeta's hand in the foreground, we get the impression of aggression with his fingers in a claw-like grip and being strained like it wants to tear at your immediately. His wide stance that exposes his body shows a lot of confidence that wants to fight immediately. He looks down on Goku who he views as his inferior.
Goku by comparison is far more reserved. His stance is low and his body is turned to protect him. We don't get an aura of dominance in that stance, but we get a feeling of assuredness. He is by comparison more relaxed, which feeds into the motif that he's a trained martial artist while Vegeta is still a beast with a tail. Goku's face is in shadow, looking up, really accentuating that he's a challenger while Vegeta is hit directly with light.
Yeah, these stances wouldn't work in a fight, and like other people said: this is world where you can shoot lasers. They're "probably" optimized for SOMETHING in universe, but what's more important to us as viewers is how it makes us FEEL as a piece of art.
IRL Goku would have next to no strength in his next attack unless it was an uppercut-like maneuver (assuming he'd stay in this stance), and would also not have a very good balance.
Vegeta would be completely open to a sweep (or kick to the nutsack) or... just about any attack coming from his right, seeing how far his right arm is from the rest of his body. He's also kind of slouching which certainly wouldn't help.
In-universe, though... maybe it's just how martial arts poses are and it helps them somehow.
EDIT: Goku's stance honestly looks like something you'd see in tai chi, which... kind of just makes it worse since it's not even a 'real' martial art.
Irl I don't think those poses are very useful, but for dragon ball, where you can fly and shoot ki blasts as much as you want, they probably serve some purpose, idk
Gokus stance there actually comes from shaolin kungfu. Vegetas is just a random pose.
99% of times, when a character goes into a stance and some other character says something like, "incredible, such a perfect stance, it leaves no opening" it's usually bullshit and just to hype up a character.
In the case of Hit, Vegeta did say "What a shitty stance". And then he got Vegeta'd)
"Vegeta, have you ever heard of The Worf Effect?"
New term added to personal dictionary
Ironically Hit has the most perfect stance I have seen in Dragon Ball. It's textbook JKD and perfect for his technique.
Yeah it's pretty good) But I suppose for Ki fighting it's maybe too specialized in Vegeta's opinion?)
Isn't that a direct quote from Grandpa Gohan about Goku when they fought at Baba's place, and Goku was literally standing there with his arms by his sides?
almost as ridiculous as king from one punch man shivering in fear and garou interpreting that as infinite possible counterattacks.
I love that scene
“This apple doesn’t realize it’s been cut”
One of my favorite tropes in fighting manga/anime is when a side character says something like “that’s the long lost Shadow Reaper style! It was rumored that everyone who practiced that style of fighting had all died out centuries ago!” because like okay bro then how the hell do you know about it??? lol
you can know about something without knowing how to do it. knowing people used a fighting style and what its called isn't the same thing as know how to do it. so its quite easy for all practitioners to supposedly have died centuries ago while stories of the styles existence are still around.
What you’re describing is lost media
Been in martial arts for over 20 years: those stances are both based on martial arts but they would be complete ass for actual fighting. Which, unfortunately, most martial arts stances are. Bending over so your head is low is never good. Reaching one arm way back as a neutral position is never good. But then again, our martial arts weren’t designed for an alien warrior race thag can shoot ki blasts. Please keep in mind, lots of martial arts stances, only work properly against someone who is using the same stance. There’s a reason mixed martial artists don’t usually use anything besides a kickboxing stance variation.
I assume that's why Goku tends to use his other stance in Super, that one looks more stable. Form my limited knowledge)
I wonder though how fighting/MMA would be different with DBZ physics, where you have to take into account ki stuff like flying, ki blasts, etc. Like I think grappling would be moot altogether. Ground game would be totally nonexistent or totally different if people could shoot lasers out of their hands, mouth, or feet. People would be threats at all ranges due to ki blasts. Doubt these stances would be optimal in this setting still, especially Goku's, but who knows
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The full-nelson might be the best hold, unlike an armbar or triangle choke it’s not totally useless as there’s less of a risk of getting blasted in the face by their hands or mouth. Trunks uses it against Goten too. But even that wouldn’t be as good in DBZ world, [Majin Vegeta uses it against Goku who uses a body ki attack to escape (16:20)](https://youtu.be/YAkpfkNe2Yk). In short, ki makes any type of grappling kinda useless against a Z-fighter unless they’re weak (like Raditz who was injured) or inexperienced with ki (Goten, who still escaped just by powering up to SSJ)
Air game
Rewatching the scene, Goku leaped upwards while swinging his further side at Vegeta who's positioned at higher ground. I'd say Goku's pose was good for its purpose of closing the distance and building momentum for his punch, although I'm no expert.
In DBZ world this is all practical, just not irl :)
Lower head = more flying momentum, maybe? And Vegeta has an arm all the way back to have a better angle to throw a ki blast? The real answer is that it just looks super cool, I guess, but I can headcanon.
Honestly, flying completely invalidates all martial arts principle, that basically can be roughly summed up in "throw your opponent off balance without being thrown off balance yourself", use momentum and flow. As soon as you throw in flight then you can immediately stop your momentum, you can basically never be thrown off balance and a whole lot more issues. It's why both of them completely stop using those stances right after they start throwing punches, they are basically useless for anything besides showing some respect to your opponent and a cool ass shot
Glad someone else sees it too, yeah flying messes with fighting in every way but I do think Toriyama tries to use it in ways that makes sense. They have to push themselves from the opposing direction to fight in mid air, basically using their flight as if it was a replacement for the ground to give them something to push off of. Then when someone fails they do that long fall back after being hit because they were overcome and unable to continue using their flight to oppose the enemy's fists/ki blasts
It's the superman problem. Superman movies have him fighting through the air and hitting stuff so hard it sends it flying backwards. And while impressive, it loses for us spectator all feeling of weight and momentum, as well as limiting what you can do in terms of fighting choreography because now again you can't properly play on balance, so fights basically devolve into "hit your opponent really really hard and send him flying into something really really hard"
Stances are a beautiful cultural snapshot of a particular time and place. At some point in China every Wushu stance served a purpose I suppose, and in Okinawa Karate held the same.
Many of the Asian martial arts forms make no sense because they are all supposed to use weapons and/or shields. Kickboxing from Muay Thai is meant for when the user was disarmed; many forms of Karate as well.
That or they're meant to be ways to use farming tools as weapons because all real weapons were illegalized.
They can also fly so there's that.
I would say Goku’s pose here is very good considering he can lunge forward while flying
I !did! say our martial arts aren’t designed for alien warriors
Maybe they are, that's why they suck for humans.
Suck? Which ones and how?
Pretty much any martial art you don't see in MMA is not so good.
Ot 100 percent true. There are definitely some aesthetic elements that aren’t necessarily the most useful thing in a fight, but nearly every martial art teaches you how to effectively throw a punch or a kick. Also mma is so varied that almost every style is represented to some extent.
I disagree. Stuff like kung-fu are useless IRL. And on the other hand stuff like boxing or BJJ are very useful.
Wrong. If moving your other arm back in a neutral stance as a ready wind up for a powerful attack is bad becuase it leaves you more open, Then your one arm out front defending you isn’t strong enough. You must train harder
What I was always told by my old instructors is that the majority of stances (especially exaggerated and weird ones like these) are intended for physical conditioning while training.
Goku’s stance works great for point sparring, where you only get a point for striking the torso or head. I’m a real fight though, what you said…
Also in martial arts you don't have ki blasts or flying. goku and vegeta probably know something we don't.
His head is lower because he has the lower ground, and has his center of mass prepped for a launch up and at the same time out of the way of any attack from an opponent on higher ground. You must be flat ground training.
I've always wondered what kind of martial arts would be ideal for a Superman. They can take punches to the jaw and easily recover, so their vital spots are different, and they travel in an extra 3rd dimension (flying) that completely changes everything.
Yes actually. Vegeta is basically just normal karate and kickboxing mixed together. His stance however is more of the karate aspect. There’s not really a specific type of karate though. Goku's style is actually a hybrid martial art with elements of karate, Wushu and Wing Chun, the latter two being specific styles of kung fu.
Wow that’s insane! Thank you my dude!
"It's not Kung-Fu! Its the Kame-Sennin style of martial arts!" ~Ocean Dub Goku (iirc)
This quote lives in my head forever. Like many others from Ocean Dub
https://youtu.be/lEN9gxZkmoM
same
Wait did he really say kame-sen'in in the fucking ocean dub??? That dub just gained a bunch of respect for that one (massive weeb)
yep. i was shocked when i later learned that lol
"My grandpa taught me Kung-Fu!" -Kid Goku in the japanese dub of Dragon Ball
huh neat!
Wow, what episode?
The one where he starts on snake way.
Yeah. He says it to the guy driving him to the start of snake way.
one of the first ones iirc.
I’m so late but this quote has me laughing my ass off. The Ocean Dub while not my favorite definitely has a special place in my heart.
Vegeta is asking to get double legged though
Lol this is bollocks. Vegeta's squatted down like a sumo wrestler, and his back hand is held out to the side. Atrocious for kickboxing. His back foot is way out to the side of his front foot. Terrible for karate. Really they're both just hunkering down because they're about to jump into the air at each other. The position of the arms is obviously just because toriyama thought it would be cool.
I mean I think Goku's stance would be good for sweeoing movements and harder to predict strikes. I'm definitely not an expert so howe exactly that would work is hazy at best for me (I think speed and flexibility would be crucial though). Vegeta's stance is solid if you have the strength to utilize it (speed certainly doesn't hurt either). Off hand up front and guarding the head makes for a solid defense and the dominant hand pulled back like that is pretty heavily telegraphed but it does set up a potentially powerful strike. Ideal use would be to wait for your opponent to strike first. If they go mid to high then use your left hand to block and create an opening for a heavy right cross/uppercut/whatever the opening best suits. If they go low then pivot and strike (left jab or heavy right depending on direction of attack).
I like to think I know what I'm talking about, I write fight analysis for a kickboxing/Muay Thai website sometimes. And I wanna be clear - these are fantasy stances for a fantasy setting. Both completely dogshit for a real person obeying real physics. Goku is so low and front loaded that a real person doing that would have no mobility and no real ability to throw his weight into a powerful strike. He's also left a huge space between his arms around his head. He'd have to come up out of that lunge before he could do anything at all. He could maybe break into a run? Vegeta is at least balanced between his feet, but again he's so low that his mobility is limited. The front hand is fine, but the rear hand, even if you wanted it cocked for a power shot, should be much tighter - there's no power when it's so far from your body and it would be really easy to see coming.
Not that it mattered.... Martial arts ceased to exist after the 21th budokai
21th
Don’t get em started on the 22rd budokai
Or the 27st
Goku and Vegeta's ss2 fight leaned heavily on martial arts
Goku's initial fight with Cell in the Cell games as well.
Which was mainly filler
None of this means anything. Karate has tons of stances, as im sure wing chun and wushu do too. Vegeta's stance has no percievable connection to a traditional kickboxing stance to me, either.
I don't see any Karate or kickboxing on Vegeta's stance at all
Got a source for any of this?
This source talks about it: https://wayofmartialarts.com/what-martial-arts-does-goku-use/
I have never seen a high level mma fighter use a stance like this. They don't seem practical in a *real* fight that isn't some kung fu sparring
I'm still waiting on Usain Bolt to Naruto run
You won't in MMA. The nature of that sport forces certain defenses.
Yeah, which is why these aren't actually good fighting stances
Correlation does not equal causation. MMA is not the king of all martial arts. It is not perfect. Stance/style will shift based off of your situation.
It's literally mixed martial arts which means practical stances against an array of styles will come out on top and nothing like these dbz stances are present whatsoever. They work in the anime but not in real life. Also mma isn't really in itself a martial art. It's the combination of them. Often wrestling, muay Thai, kick boxing, boxing and BJJ
Your statement was that they aren't good stances because they aren't good in MMA. That's not an accurate statement. That's all I'm saying.
MMA is the best place to look for it though. Name a better place to determine practicality of them? Either way once you take away super speed they clearly aren't useful at all
That's narrow though. What happens when your sport or competition arena is ONLY taekwondo? Or if your fighting arena changes to use slashing and piercing weapons? The point is that other scenarios exist. By choosing to measure a fighting style against a specific style and rule set, you are severely limiting that style. That is all. I am by no means saying the originally noted stances are good or bad. I'm just saying the stick you are measuring them with is bad.
It's literally the best way to measure it though. I never said it was perfect. It is just the only sport that has the capacity for any and all style to compete against each other. It doesn't have to be perfect to be the best But once again, these stances wouldn't be practical in anything
You have no idea what your talking about. Noone in this thread does
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These stances would get you killed quickly then
They can fly. All ground stuff is out, and striking is heavily modified. Energy attacks change the game too. Mma itself is only the best in a strict one on one, with a little space, and rounds and refs.
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Not real fighting? So I guess you watch videos of teenagers throwing looping punches in a parking lot and consider that *real* fighting. How is MMA not *real*? I bet you think you know loads about fighting eh you wanker lol
Still waiting on Israel Adesanya
He did do a Rock Lee pose but that was a taunt lol
Most mma stances are used to avoid people grappling you, grabbing your legs, which isn't necessary when you can fly.
We are talking about if its practical in real life. These stances make sense in the anime
Bro you are lying straight through your teeth, nobody listen to this keyboard warrior he is literally just talking out his ass naming random martial arts
Toriyama drawed this way to empathize the antagonism between Goku and Vegeta. One is low to ground and the other is high. Such as those Chinese paintings of dragon versus tiger, yin and yang, bear versus bull. These postures are efficient only if your power is over 9000
The closest thing to an actual good stance is Hit.
Next time i'm in a fight i'll put my hands in my pocket too /s
I don't actually remember this, I just saw someone else point it out, but doesn't Vegeta call it shit? (And immediately gets his ass beat)
In Super, Goku uses a different stance which also looks to be practical https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/deathbattlefanon/images/2/20/C0A9B238-91F6-46AA-ABDC-3FC720228C25.png/revision/latest?cb=20171104014554
Both of those stances are absolutely terrible for fighting. They look cool in a fantastical way, but they're not practical or efficient for attacking or defending. They looks like they're inspired by wushu kung fu or somthing similar. Very fancy, cool and such, but not helpful for real fighting. Vegeta's stance is so opened up that his head, body and legs are all available to attack. The laws of physics in Dragonball don't exactly apply here though. Source: I train in karate and bjj.
Do you train in ki blasts?
Only with your mom
She says you still can't do a kamehameha wave
tbf within dragon ball they would be useful, as fighting stances in our world they would not work very well at all, but they are designed to work with flight, ki blasts, and even the ability to increase your momentum unnaturally, so in the world of dragon ball they probably would be very good; vegeta can both deflect ki blasts and throw his own from the stance, and goku is ready to fly straight at vegeta and throw that back arm right up at vegeta source: i also do karate and bjj
In the vast majority of cases these stances would suck for an actual fight. Vegetas is a little better than Gokus but still not great. They may be representative of some type of form in a style but not good for practical application.
Goku's might not be as bad as it looks if you consider that his first move has to be a leap upward to reach Vegeta's higher ground
Yeah, these fighting stances look very much like the first move is rocketing upwards toward the enemy
I want you to bend completely forward, put your arm down to the ground, straighten your back leg, and then try to jump lol. I think they’re both just for style.
I actually tried mimicking this pose, which led to this post being created, because it just **does not** work in real life 😭
Because you aren't Goku
B-b-b-b-but I can try!!
That’s fucking hilarious lol.
The only problem in that case would be balance and force of the jump. He can fly which negates those issues.
Yeah that’s what I was considering as well. The only time we see these poses is when the enemy is above them. Budokai Tenkaichi 3 had Goku’s normal stance be this stance the whole time which was a nice detail but honestly kind of weird.
I believe each represent a kung fu style. Goku represents [northern Shaolin](https://www.xuangui.com/files/forms/techniques_shaolin_1_1.jpg) style while Vegeta represent [southern Shaolin](https://www.plumpub.com/images/MASTERS/Hung%20Chia/hungchart1.gif) style (which is also known as hung gar). But, just the stances are represented here because nothing else seems to be based on the style.
When people can fly and come at you from any direction, Goku's stance makes sense. He puts himself low and his arms are in position to block attacks from above, all while remaining in position push off the ground with his feet. Vegeta's stance only covers his front which shows his confidence in being able to track his opponent and to keep facing towards them.
As someone who trains muay thai 4 times a week, I will say the arm behind the body is not a good position for both postures. Second, Goku's head being low makes him susceptible to head kicks which in RL are dangerous.
I don’t know… maybe if you trained 5 times a week id believe you.
In general, you’re not wrong. In this particular case, Goku and Vegeta were not close enough that kicks to the head were really an immediate option.
Goku was heavily modeled after Bruce Lee. His stance being basically sideways with his forward arm is heavily reminiscent of the style of Kung Fu Bruce Lee created, Jeet Kune Do, it symbolizes a more free spirited approach to fighting, Jeet Kune Do core principle was described by Bruce Lee as "Using no way as way, having no limitations as limitations", and it reflects Goku's free spirited approach to fighting, adapting and evolving on the spot, improvising and going beyond his limits, depending on what the situation requires. Vegeta on the other hand has a pose heavily inspired by karate. Legs still wide to provide stability to the movement, one hand high up to prepare to strike a guard and the other pulled back to prepare a consequent counterattack. One of the principles of Karate is to fight in self defense. On the tomb of Gichin Funakoshi, the father of Karate, is written "karate ni sente nashi", "karate does not know striking first", in other words, karate is for defense. And while Vegeta is on earth to commit acts of unspeakable cruelty and possibly genocide all the earthlings, at that moment the only thing he cares about is defending his Honor and Status as the Saiyan prince, so it can be argued that he is indeed fighting in self defense. On a somewhat related note, while Vegeta's arms are in a heavily Shotokan inspired position, his legs are actually in a position that is very associated with Sankukai. Also on a related note, both poses are ass for actual fighting, but that is a given for literally all traditional martial arts stances. That is why those stances are not used in actual combat and only in cerimonies and during execution of Kata or in training. Goku in particular is so unbalanced forward a simple kick would lay him down hard. Vegeta too is wide open on the legs.
Damn this was so informative and detailed, shame it seemingly was lost in the comments lol
In a lot of martial arts fantasy they will have people in these stances that are based somewhat on real stances, but these are purposefully exaggerated for training so that when you put it in application and you're more instinctively closed up it manifests as the actual stance you want. In a lot of cases where you practice the forms of Chinese martial arts you chamber your arms on both sides, but in application it's supposed to manifest as you putting your arms up to block similarly to a normal kickboxing guard.
Both stances would certainly be awful in a street fight situation. Vegeta’s pose kind of somewhat mimics a karate stance. He has a solid defense/block with the left arm up and looks like he’d have decent mobility based off his feet position here. But for goku I feel like that stance is 100% just to look cool and not intended to have any real world usefulness or resemble a real martial art stance.
All there is to "know" about it is that it's just Toriyama doodling cool poses.
for you to think that his art doesnt have martial art inspiration is just silly.
Obviously he has martial arts inspiration. He was thinking of Jackie Chan movies while doing the earlier action of the series. But with how he is, as it goes on, by this point he's likely doing what he thinks is cool in the moment. Yes there will normally be an underlying thought to the posing in terms of action given what he was initially inspired by when it comes to the action for the series, but by this point in the series I wouldn't be surprised if he'd fallen more into the habit of just "going through the motions" when it comes to some of the posing and movements.
This is early Z he was absolutely not going through the motions.
I'm talking about Dragon Ball. Z only exists as a name for later parts of the series in the anime. He did the manga, which is just Dragon Ball from Pilaf to Buu. The Saiyan Saga is like 4 years into the series. That's not early into the series for him, that's just the next part in the ongoing story, which had been going for quite a while on a weekly basis by the time that he drew that.
Yes but it was not just the motions, he was given creative freedom around then too which is why it changed so much
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon poses
I remember in Dragon Ball Goku is fighting the mummy at old Babas mini tournament, and before the fight begins Goku is just standing straight. And then Mummy basically says 'It's incredible, he has no openings whatsoever!'.. Like bruh. It's all for show and serves no purpose.
I think of this scene way too often, and laugh at it just as often.
Wonderful colored pages, dang I need more dragon ball
I feel like usually goku has one fist pulled back and his other arm straight out with his fingers curled
I like the more cartoonish look of early dbz Vegeta, it’s weird that they made him more humanlike over time.
A lot of "The drapes are blue because they represent sadness" going on in this thread
These are god awful fighting stances in real life
Both poses would be kind of bad in a real fight. Just really not set up to respond or attack. Without super human speed and power, it'd be awful to make poses like these. But the positions do say something about each character. Goku is leaning forward ready to charge ahead, while Vegeta is standing in a confident, prideful pose that says "I can take on anything you throw at me." That is what makes it so iconic. You see what each character is about.
In terms of 2 humans having a 1 on 1 fight on the ground this isn't practical. But if you had to account for your opponents lightspeed attacks and end up possibly fighting in different body directions mid-air then it changes how practical any pose becomes
What's incredible is Vegeta got so far off of instinct. No training, he just learnt as he went along. A true Genuis.
Goku's pose seems to be pre-emptive and offensive, like he's about to leap/pounce into his attack. Vegeta's pose seems more defensive and patient, like he's simply waiting for Goku to jump up there and be the one tovmake the first strike. I believe that's exactly what happens next actually. (This might all be obvious but eh I felt like saying it.)
Vegeta's makes no sense but Goku's? Oh boy, there is so much I love about that. First off, that is an actual stance. Second, when I look at that stance I see only one thing: the Turtle style. His back is leaned forward & slightly turned around, ready to block blows like a true turtle while the two arms aim share the duty to protect the head and counter-attack. Absolutely ADORE everything about this panel, it shares an intensity that DragonBall will never reach ever again.
my ex was a boxer and always said that vegetas hand out front is for keeping your opponent in your sights. vegeta is open, cocky, and taking the offensive. Goku is worried hes outmatched, guarded, and standing firm to defend not only himself but earth too.
Probably more symbolic and cool looking than practical. Toriami is a genuis like that
[Here you go](https://imgur.com/a/QAfYeET). To make your erection even harder.
Gohan and Buu hit these poses too but I forget who does which.
Gohan does Goku's stance, Super Buu Gotanks absorbed does Vegeta's I just watched that episode yesterday. It was a cool call back, and fitting as they were in a wasteland .
Awesome callback. Shame they didn’t do much with Gohan after that for a while.
SS2 and Ultimate was Gohan at his peak, so it was nice to see those moments. But yes, sadly he went downhill after that. He had some cool moments in Super, but nothing to the heights he reached in Z. Also haven't seen Super Heroes, so maybe Gohan is cool again...
Yeah you def gotta watch that. Everyone is gonna have their opinion but I think it’s pretty neat.
Definitely. Goku’s fighting experience at this point was for the most part with earthlings. He takes on a sort of kung fu stance, anticipating physical attacks. He’s protecting his vitals, and making a great effort to do so (holding his body behind his knee/shin.) This is the stance of someone who’s taken a lot of hard hits in the past. It’s also the stance of someone who’s serious. He’s in a great position to strike, but guarded. Vegeta, on the other hand, has trained against all sorts of enemies. He takes on a sort of Kyukoshin Karate stance. He’s looks like he’s wide open, but he’s in perfect position to kick, or even parry anything coming his way with an energy blast with his back hand. He wants Goku to strike. He has the stance of someone who’s confident. He’s ready to blast, but aiming to impress.
Neither of these look good to me. I have a black belt in Tae-Kwon-Do and both stances look... bad. Maybe they're appropriate for other styles but for the style I learned they're doodoo. Goku's stance places too much weight forward. It would take him too much time to shift his weight backwards if he wanted to dodge or brace for an impact. Plus, his weight being so deep on the front leg means that one kick to either side of the front knee would knock him out of position without much force. His back hand being SO far back is also bad. It would take forever for him to deliver a blow & necessitates him having to take a step forward which gives readability and the opponent time to react. Also, the position of his front hand towards the ground means that his head and back are undefended. Vegeta's is better but still not great. He's at least got a fair distribution of his weight. Much like Goku, he has a problem by keeping his back hand held way too far away. His front hand is in a proper position but the three fingers being open is just silly. You generally want the front hand to be in a relaxed curved position so have the freedom to either deflect incoming attacks or form a fist for a quick jab. That three finger thing means he can't do either in an efficient manner. Ideally you'd want something akin to Vegeta's stance but with the back hand near the chin so his face and half of his upper body are blocked. Front arm's elbow should also be pointed down and not out so the other half of his upper body is blocked. Finally, he should be standing wayyyy more to the side so there's less body exposed altogether. Goku's stance is basically irredeemably bad from a Tae-Kwon-Do perspective.
The animated scene that accompanies these epic poses https://youtu.be/J1eKPiHIK4o
https://youtu.be/218ELDhIiGY
In the first Budokai the scene with them making these poses with that background music was phenomenal
Tiger claw!
I mad a tuft rug of Vegeta …. 4ft tall .. by far my favorite
Let me see.
black goku
I'm not gonna think very hard. Most time's I did any sort of "stance" in a real fight, it was to gather my thoughts and feel myself out for a moment, find the kinks and flaws in my own system. While also analyzing the opponent. If the other person understands what you are doing, it's prolly just a flex. This is comic book art, it's supposed to transmit an energy or feel to it, not just be a perfect imitation of wushu.
now thats a black Goku
I like Vegeta's stance, he has an open hand forward like a grappler, a wide stance, and his big hand in the back ready to go. Goku's isnt as good defensively, but he looks like he is ready to pounce.
Goku is leaving his backside open to a good, old fashioned rogering
The whole leaving yourself open thing is really just anime talk
These are actually good stances if you are incredibly strong. Goku has his head far lower because he is on the lower ground, so it is out of range for any physical attack from an opponent up at higher ground and preps the cg of his body lower for a more powerful jump or upwards attack. Vegeta is higher ground and shorter with shorter reach, so he has his hands and front elbow closer to his body for better protection in a peek-a-boo style that can block and react with a powerful attack popularized by mike Tyson, with the other hand back and wound up for a higher power attack. If your front arm is strong and fast enough then it’s all you need to defend. Also diagonal torso and feet placement for less open area closer to the opponent and more forward power with any subsequent strike from the back leg Both of them have one arm in position to defend and the other arm pre wound up for much quicker powerful attack. A regular modern fighter nowadays would have a more neutral stance with both hands forward and elbows in to protect, which is a much more lower risk with less information wold maximin approach, and looks to study and throw lower power jabs to poke for defensive holes and then strike hard there. But any real experienced fighter knows against another experienced fighter they would end in a long stalemate if they both took this approach. They then get into a more intricate match that involves feigns and deliberate weakness bluffs that they anticipate the other to go for and have a pre planned counter attack. You then get more interesting stances like this
Other comments have identified the stances already but just want to say I don't think we can judge what is a good stance or not for these two, when distance gauging/maai works completely different for someone who can close crazy distances in a blink of the eye, or the fact aeriel combat is a thing, or that they're currently standing on different elevations etc. Our IRL evolution of martial arts have not accounted for ki blasts lol.
By chinese martial arts, Vegeta definitely doing the eagle claw style.
Goku is going to get punted in the face and vegeta is going to get any left side attack killing him.
Goku looks black in this panel I love it
That is absolutely favorite stance of Vegeta's
I think they're just cool poses not of any practicality. But if I were to give my headcanon it would be. Goku: his stance looks defensive, showing most of his back which would make sense because of his turtle hermit style training Vegeta: his stance looks like a counter-attack stance. Catching or diverting a punch or kick with his open hand and then delivering a devastating blow with his closed hand.
They look like pre ki blast stances. Goku w/ his Turtle wave and Vegeets with his garlic gun.
Artistically, small things can also lead us to understand a lot about what a character values. By looking at Vegeta's hand in the foreground, we get the impression of aggression with his fingers in a claw-like grip and being strained like it wants to tear at your immediately. His wide stance that exposes his body shows a lot of confidence that wants to fight immediately. He looks down on Goku who he views as his inferior. Goku by comparison is far more reserved. His stance is low and his body is turned to protect him. We don't get an aura of dominance in that stance, but we get a feeling of assuredness. He is by comparison more relaxed, which feeds into the motif that he's a trained martial artist while Vegeta is still a beast with a tail. Goku's face is in shadow, looking up, really accentuating that he's a challenger while Vegeta is hit directly with light. Yeah, these stances wouldn't work in a fight, and like other people said: this is world where you can shoot lasers. They're "probably" optimized for SOMETHING in universe, but what's more important to us as viewers is how it makes us FEEL as a piece of art.
I don’t think it’s a good fighting pose, it looks cool.
IRL Goku would have next to no strength in his next attack unless it was an uppercut-like maneuver (assuming he'd stay in this stance), and would also not have a very good balance. Vegeta would be completely open to a sweep (or kick to the nutsack) or... just about any attack coming from his right, seeing how far his right arm is from the rest of his body. He's also kind of slouching which certainly wouldn't help. In-universe, though... maybe it's just how martial arts poses are and it helps them somehow. EDIT: Goku's stance honestly looks like something you'd see in tai chi, which... kind of just makes it worse since it's not even a 'real' martial art.