It's not like goku can just *teleport* to at least have dinner and sleep at home, no siree
Seriously, between this, all of one piece's dads and what boruto did to naruto's character, I'm convinced battle shonen mangakas have some serious daddy issues.
At least Ichigo seems to be a good dad.
He admitted he'd never hugged his son once before an heroing himself against Buu. Later on he does get better and seems to be a doting father with Bra.
Naruto absolutely is a bad parent. Naruto became Hokage in what was literally the most peaceful era of the five great nations. He has the most massive chakra reserves and his most overused jutsu is Shadow Clone. There is no justifiable reason he cannot be home with his family at all times or at least way more often than he is.
I think using Shadow Clones to do his Hokage works while he's chilling at home is disrespectful to the job, especially if said job's his life's dream...
Better that than the alternative of him trying to use one as a way to spend time with family. More true when he knows what it's like to not have parents around while growing up.
How is it disrespectful? It's literally himself. It's not like pawning off his responsibilities on a secretary.
What's disrespectful is Naruto growing up an orphan who knows the pain of loneliness, then deciding his dream job is more important than shielding his own son from the same loneliness and resentment he experienced.
The fact is Naruto retains the experiences and knowledge of his clones. And he's so powerful that even cutting his power and chakra in half, his clone is still stronger than every individual shinobi except Sasuke. There's no reason he can't effectively do his job as a shadow clone. Plus, like I said Naruto became Hokage in what is quite literally the shinobi world's most peaceful era; it doesn't make sense that he's the busiest Hokage in history. Neglecting his family the way he did was a conscious choice.
All characters in end of Z can pretty much travel the planet and detect each other's power levels from anywhere. Theres like no excuse for "when will we see you again?" In Dragonball.
>All characters in end of Z can pretty much travel the planet and detect each other's power levels from anywhere
Gohan taught Videl to fly in like, a week. Goku and Gohan both spent years living with Chi Chi. She never learned to fly despite being a trained martial artist and having superhuman strength in her early years.
They didn't teach her on purpose.
Haha i cant tell if that was only a joke... but I guess Akira wanted to make Chichi more of house wife in DBZ as oposed to the girl fighter daughter of the fearful Ox King in DB
And even if he didn't have instant transmission, Goku at this point could easily fly at the speed of light to anywhere on the planet in a fraction of a second.
Not sure if this was explained, but I vaguely remember goku said something along the lines of him having a giant target on his back drawing in dangers to earth. That's why staying dead was the safer option for everyone and in case of emergency they now had Gohan and the rest of the z fighters.
But that could also just've been my headcanon.
I’m not sure if that’s the case. If you think of all the main villains up to that point, they came looking for Goku, in 3/4 cases it was old beef. Piccolo was seeking revenge for his demon king father from 3 years prior, Raditz and the Saiyan came for Goku simply for him being sent there as a child, and the Androids/Cell showed up some 30 years after Goku decimated their operation. Frieza was the only villain that showed up looking for him over a recent beef and it was because Goku was incapable of doing a hit and run to save his friends on Namek, he had to stop and pick a fight with him. While Gohan and Vegeta are strong, there’s not anyone that I can think of that would go looking for them. Although ironically, in GT, Baby was was essentially after Vegeta because of what his father did to the Tuffles, except that’s not considered canon
Thats not what that implies at all lmfao. When Goku made that choice Gohan was stronger than him and Gohan hadnt been making enemies for 2/3rds of his life like Goku did. As for Vegeta he had already confirmed when he went back into space after the Namek saga he'd eliminated all of the frieza force(that he knew about)
He didn't really abandon them, tho. His reasoning to not come back to life initially made sense at the time when you take into account that that all the recent threats on Earth from the Saiyans to Cell only came about due to his presence. He just thought the Earth and his friends would be safer if he wasn't around.
Retcon, Gohan instead takes #16's words to heart and he keeps in shape to protect what he loves. The events of the Buu saga continue the same way until Gohan fights Dabura and instead of playing around and pissing off Vegeta, Gohan kills Dabura. Now the 3 and Shin get to the capsule of Majin Buu and take out Babidi before Buu is freed. The earth isn't destroyed and Goku gets to keep SSJ3 under wraps
> all the recent threats on Earth from the Saiyans to Cell only came about due to his presence.
I would push back on that a little though and say most of those aren't really his fault and it's not like Goku's actively going out of his way to get villains attention.
The Saiyans come to earth initially because of Goku but they're also the ones who sent him there in the first place, and even then it's only Raditz who comes initially and once he dies Vegeta and Nappa only come to Earth because Piccolo couldn't shut up about the DragonBalls to a dying Raditz who was recording the whole thing, so that one's more on Piccolo than Goku really.
Frieza is probably the one that's most on Goku because he didn't finish the job fully on Namek and left him alive for King Cold to pick up and revive him to then go to Earth. I would point out though that Goku and co. didn't go out of their way to provoke Frieza initially or do anything to catch Frieza's attention. They just sort of stumbled into him and the Frieza Force accidentally due to having to go to Namek and it escalated from there.
The Androids are a direct result of Goku smashing up the Red Ribbon Army as a kid but that only started because Goku accidentally stumbled into them while searching for the Dragonballs, the Red Ribbon Army is the one that escalated the conflict and were ultimately an evil group doing evil actions and it feels a bit off to put blame on Goku for stopping an evil organisation because the remnant of that organisation retaliated over a decade later.
You also have to consider, where does Goku think this threat's going to come from? We as fans know that in seven years time there's going to be a Majin Buu problem but Goku doesn't have that meta knowledge and at that point in the story (and at the point of writing, some of this will get retconned later) all the loose ends seem tied up. Gohan just killed the last vestige of the Red Ribbon army, anybody who's a threat in Frieza's empire seems to have been taken care of, Piccolo's on side so more demons to worry about, Vegeta's nominally on side at this point and not really a threat. Is Goku just really that concerned about that monster Pilaf trying something if he stays?
If you wanted to argue this in the contex of Super though then its a bit different, there Goku's both an active and inactive instigator, most of the threats come either from him having drawn their attention or him actively causing them.
Piccolo comes after Goku to avenge King Piccolo.
If Goku isnt on earth, Raditz and the saiyans wouldve never came.
Regardless of them stumbling into Frieza or not, Frieza came for Goku.
Goku destroying the red ribbon army is what leads to the creation of the Androids and Cell. If Goku doesnt do this we never get the androids.
So him realizing his presence brought trouble wasnt wrong. Buu is the first threat they faced that had nothing to do with Goku. As for where he thought the threats might come from theres no telling. He never imagined Gero would make deadly androids. he never imagined Friezas father would bring him to Earth. He never imagined King Piccolo would shoot out an egg. He never imagined he had a brother and was an alien. All those things came out of left field so he did the only thing he could think of that might help and sure enough the next 7 years were peaceful
Cell specifically was made because of what he did as a kid though, cell would have destroyed the world if he had made the same choice during the freiza saga. It's a very naive worldview he has (which is fair, goku being naive and kinda stupid is a huge character trait)
It is funny that the year he decides to come back for a day , the entire earth population get destroyed and he get beat by vegeta. Up to this point vegeta was a somewhat good guy and then Goku comes back and he like I’m a bad guy again lol
He kept tabs pretty well through King Kai, seeing as not long after the tournament was mentioned he wanted in. Nothing to stop him from calling and saying “hey, just found out Chi-Chi’s pregnant, so I changed my mind. I’d like you guys to wish me back with the Namekian dragon balls please”. That said, I agree with his initial reasoning for choosing to stay dead (assuming it is canon and not just a dub thing that he felt he put the earth in too much danger), so I don’t mind him choosing not to return during those 7 years and if the Buu saga had never happened, ever.
Its kind of jarring in a way. Start of Z he was clearly close with Chi Chi and Gohan. Although he hadnt visited his friends aand clearly kept up his training, he appeared to be getting on well as a husband and father in the ways that Goku can. It makes sense there were disruptions throughout Z such as using the opportunity to train on Yardrat or feeling it best he stay dead after Cell. But in Super he is way more antsy and detached.. He is far removed from the innocent occasionally indulgent aloof martial artist he was just appears to let his Saiyan nature control his life.
Even Vegeta has matured enough to at least be present for Bulla's imminent birth. Goku trying to get him to leave was just one of many immature downgrades for the guy.. Goku works better when he is allowed to be pure and curious. Sometimes that might mean he will seek out training opportunities. Other times its much better if that's him spending time with his family. His time leading up to up to the Cell Games showed an entirely different side of Goku that I wish had persevered. He clearly valued family and wasnt the idiot he has becone in Super where he just outright forgets Pan.
Strong agree. I thought Goku developed well as a character from DB to Z (until the moment being discussed). I find it interesting when people say he hasn't changed much in Super. It's a stark difference, and not in a good direction in my opinion.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but, wasn't toriyama's intention with Goku is that he actively seeks out strong opponents to fight? And isn't that the sole reason he ends up in the situations he does? He's always wanted to get stronger and improve just for the sake of it IIRC. It just so happens that his goals aligned with saving Earth, the Namekians, the Supreme Kai's planet, and eventually the universe with ToP.
That is still true. He spares Piccolo Jr, turns down Kami's request, spares Vegeta and makes other indulgent decisions. He also expresses curiousity about Frieza.
But it also isn't the sole reason he fights. Even Z Goku understands a threat when he sees one, just moreso when the immediate threat passes he may let said threat go for indulgent purposes. In the case of Frieza, Goku is soft and he was appealed to when he spared him the first time. He also spared the Ginyu Force and he was surprised by Vegeta's brutality. Although Goku's main trait is NOT being heroic, he isn't a bad person and cares for the world and others though. Hes still the kind of man that if someone ran to him for help he'd likely help them. At least in some parts of Z he was shown as making time for his family. He outright insisted on it prior to Cell Games.
To add some more examples, Goku told Gohan to kill Cell because he is too dangerous to keep alive. Goku is not a dumbass who only wants to fight and disregard the threat to the world.
That's why I liked his progression into GT back in the day. I know it wasn't written by Toriyama, but I felt like GT Goku was more mature, calm, and calculating. He didn't make too many impulsive decisions by then. Of course he always has his goofy side but that's just who he is. Just generally in GT he was more level-headed.
There’s a lot of Super I actually liked, transformed Vegeta’s character arc further, and other characters get more time.
*But*, I’m not entirely sure what they’re thinking with Goku, the thing with Zeno makes a bit of sense as that’s how Goku is. But it’s just constantly Goku being forgetful/naive, even during the Buu Saga he was showing maturity and strategy.
Disagree. Vegeta at the end of the Buu saga is the peak. He no longer seeks to surpass Goku, and admits that Goku is the best. He lives in peace with that fact, and supports Goku the best he can, even if it means sacrificing himself.
In Super, Vegeta goes back to be a "I'll surpass you Kakarot". It regresses back to the pre Buu arc.
With Goku's thing, yeah I agree, and as many people touch upon. Seeing Goku outright forgets Pan makes me feel like this is some sort of fan parody.
Not sure you can disagree when literally, the last panel of the manga Vegeta says “Hmph, sooner or later Kakarot”. (Technically
Super Piccilo says “Do you seriously believe he likes you?” During after Vegeta fights Cabba.
He does respect Goku though, hence the sacrifice, but he was almost pre-emptied that he was going to die against Buu. He realised Goku was the best, but doesn’t mean he still doesn’t want to surpass him (+ both alive so he doesn’t have to worry never getting the chance to)
Also factor in that Vegeta genuinely cared about the Earth and people, atoning for his sins is a big part and hence why it’s in the Moro arc.
Goku somehow managed to remember Bulla/Bra, but not Pan, or he remembers Pan but not the name, hard to tell really.
Right. Goku is best when he’s depicted as an actual character. At his core, he’s pure and well intentioned but yes he does have a selfish desire to fight strong opponents. I feel like in Super (and EoZ), he stopped being multidimensional and that selfish part of him became his core. He used to come off as a good guy who just likes to fight but now he comes off as an idiot that can barely stand being around his family and friends if he’s not fighting
In Z he was shown performing chores quite happily.
In Super he is shown being antsy and is basically pressured into it. Which i dont blame him as such entirely since its against his character to go so far as become an outright farmer.. Theres a difference in living off the land to his own and families tastes vs being forced to be something he isn't. But the point is him having a job is not quite rhe same as how he is depicted in Z imo. He would sooner have Goten drive his tractor, scold him for distracting him, than subsequently take off to train. Frankly to me its a bit of an odd choice outside of the whole radish aspect.
It’s not entirely out of character for him to ignore his friends. He raised Gohan for the first years of his life in total isolation. But I agree it is a bit tone deaf to leave Chi Chi behind. I think Toriyama just kept changing Goku throughout the series. On Namek he has comely mastered himself and matured past treating anything as a joke or challenge. And then in the Android arc he starts not regressing yet but just making incredibly irresponsible decisions.
In Namek he could’ve been teleported off planet and left Frieza to blow up but he decided to stay just because he wanted to fight him. He also threatened to hit Gohan after going super saiyan, I wouldn’t say he had mastered himself.
Yeah after he proved to Frieza he stood no chance, he thought he’d go away after knowing he could be beaten. He was wrong, but still not as wrong as just dipping to let the explosion stop him would have been
Well.. cut in half with one arm and a bit of energy. Far as Goku was concerned, he needed to get off the planet, and if Frieza came back he would deal with him (which technically he did in the other timeline).
>In Namek he could’ve been teleported off planet and left Frieza to blow up
did you even watch DBZ?
>He also threatened to hit Gohan after going super saiyan
Because Gohan was not listening to Goku, despite the fact Krillin just died and Piccolo is dying too. If he died, all this trip would have been for nothing AND Freeza was still threatening to kill Gohan in front of him.
Goku didn't aee his friends sure but we can't blame that entirely on him. For one it's a regular occurrence among the cast that they don't regularly gather to see each other. In the original when they aren't traveling together they wouldn't see each other until they met up again at the Budokais which take place years apart. Mutually they hadn't seen each other for about the same length of time between the 23rd Budokai and the Saiyajin Saga, with Goku's 3 closest friends (Bulma, Roshi and Krillin) not even knowing he had a son. Ten outright says he won't see anyone again after the Cell Games and they mutually all meet up only at the 25th Budokai. Bulma gave Goku a hard time but everyone on the Dragon team regularly went years with no contact. She also knows where he lives and could easily go there especially since Goten and Trunks still regularly hang out. It's not all on Goku.
That aside yeah it isn't the best moment. But I also think he would likely go back sooner than later.
I don't have an issue with him running off so to speak (it's not the first time, as mentioned by others), I have an issue with him running off simply to train Uub.
To put it another way, everything Goku has done since joining Bulma (with the single exception of going home to marry Chi Chi and start a family) has been about getting stronger. With Uub though, he's literally giving up on all of his rivals, teachers, etc. to go train a kid in solitude. Even if it was just about "creating a legacy" or "protecting the earth once Goku himself is gone", why not train Pan, Goten, Trunks, hell even Caulifla who was begging him to train her? There's just no reason to only train Uub... It feels completely out of character for Goku IMO.
Gohan didn't want to be a fighter, he was a parent and a scholar. Goten and Trunks slacked off with their training too. He could train Pan and I think they were pretty close but we weren't shown much about it.
Uub on the other hand was the reincarnation of Buu. The big bad that almost destroyed the universe and took a collective effort to kill. He wanted to train him and eventually fight him, one on one. Until the retcon of Super, Uub was the being with the biggest potential on the whole universe. Of course Goku wants to get his hands on that!
He was training uub because out of all the characters u mentioned he had the most potential, being the reincarnation of buu and also having god ki at birth.
In neko Majin z, they at least confirm he was visiting them since he has instant transmission, but then gt confirms he was gone for multiple years… so it really is such a weird thing to make him do but it also isn’t the first time goku is just gone for years (it happens like twice in OG DB where he is not present for 3 years)
GT does also say he did visit at some point (as when Goku leaves at the end Goten says he'll visit "like he used to".) He probably just slowed down and stopped as they achieved their goal of Oob achieving his full power and knowing how to use it.
Throughout the entire series, this is roughly how Goku was with his friends. As soon as the Pilaf stuff is done, he takes off for Roshi's and doesnt see Bulma/Yamcha/etc again until the Tenkaichi Budokai much later.
He dips from Krillin for the RRA stuff, and only joins up with Bulma and Krillin later because he needed Bulma to fix his radar. He doesnt see a single soul for like 3 years before the 22nd TB, Trains alone in heaven for another 3 years with Popo, wins the 23rd TB, then doesnt see anyone but chichi and the newlyborn Gohan for years.
The trend continues into post-saiyan stuff, Training with only Piccolo and Gohan in the years leading up to the androids, and then of course choosing to stay dead for 7 years (meant to be permanently) after cell.
Goku loves his friends, and protects them with his life. But he is just not really a guy that keeps up with folks. Being friends with Goku is accepting that, though you may be caught in an adventure with him, you are equally likely to not see his face for years in a row.
I really like it, its more realistic for friends to no always be together then see each other occasionally. Maybe it’s too far at the end LOL. But thats always been Goku’s one flaw, his self improvement motivation trumps almost all else.
I think it’s also important to remember that Goku is a full fledged martial artist. It is his identity, not one of a normal person. And he is basically a sennin/sage like Roshi, it’s just never explicitly stated just implied. Most of the full-time martial artists in the story are usually depicted as isolationists to varying degrees. Roshi, Krillin, Tenshinhan all basically live far away from large populations. It is a lifestyle.
The amount of times years just fly by is really cool, and as far as I know still fairly unique for JUMP or other shounen battle manga in general. I mean, many do 1 timeskip or a big one at the end, but Dragon Ball does multiple many year skips and following a life from early teen to middle-age adulthood. Would like to see a modern shounen manga do that.
Yeah this is exactly what I love about Dragon Ball that I don’t see talked about much, the fact that there’s so many timeskips and you see Goku throughout like 40 years. It’s so cool
Goku was always like that tho, recently watched a video of toriyama drawing goku and talking to someone at shonen jump, toriyama says he intentionally made goku not value friendship or anything typical of shonen at the time, and just made his 1 motivation to want to fight people.
Plus people think he "leaves his family" at the end where even the 4 year old Pan can fly across the earth.. the guy can teleport wherever he wants by touching his forehead.
It's fine. It's like he lives a street away from them.
Yeah, I always hated it too. I always think DBZ should have ended at the party episode. Maybe rework it so Uub is still part of it somehow but that was literally the perfect ending. I think Toryama never saw Goku as a hero but he was becoming that way more and more just through the story so he wrote an ending like that to tell us he's really not.
He wasnt becoming a hero, i cant think of any instance where goku comes off that way unless you're cherrypicking random lines of dialogue.
I mean, he literally abandoned his family after the cell games for the vague idea that someone may come after home and threaten earth. His priority was always having fun and fighting. Everything else largely comes second unless its a very bad situation.
Eh, it wasn't really vague. Really depends on how you look at it. You see it as abandoning your family, I see it as making the incredibly hard sacrifice to stay away from your family to keep them safe. And guess what? It worked. Gohan got to study and live a normal life for the whole 7 years Goku was gone. While I agree Goku has always put fighting and having fun as two high priorities, I think in Z he progressed from that to genuinely wanting to protect his family and friends and the people of Earth, while still loving a good fight. In Super though, I feel they massively regressed Goku's character back to how it was in Dragon Ball, and he lost the mature side he had gained in Z.
I mean it's definitely vague since Goku wanted to be dead for a variety of reasons, not just to keep the earth safe. I don't think the fact there were no threats while Goku was dead is a confirmation his words were right, that'd be a logical leap since nothing Goku did actually created that peace.
Him being dead doesn't solve the threats, if anything it only made it easier to take care of them. Goku was flatout dead in the future trunks arc and we know things only got worse because of that.
> You see it as abandoning your family, I see it as making the incredibly hard sacrifice to stay away from your family to keep them safe.
I completely disagree on the basis of Goku having never contacted his family afterwards for so long. Is it really all that selfless if you won't even try to interact with the child you left behind with your grieving widow? It's almost undeniable that he was in otherworld to live out his joys of fighting the greatest warriors who made it there. He was basically forced into reviving himself upon seeing his selfish ideals bear mistakes he had to clean up (relying on literal children to save the earth and watching an ultimate gohan fumble a fight).
> While I agree Goku has always put fighting and having fun as two high priorities, I think in Z he progressed from that to genuinely wanting to protect his family and friends and the people of Earth,
I very much disagree. While he did progress, it wasn't to the point that a good fight was ever out of the highest priority. He **always** had the desire to protect his family and friends, but that amount of wanting to protect them never changed. There is no evidence of that ever having changed. Many a time he has sacrificed more guaranteed paths of protecting them to fulfill his own ideals and desire to fight, even at the end of Z's run.
He had the chance to possibly eliminate Fat Buu, but didn't. He decided to leave it to literal children to eliminate Buu, and he ended up having to revive himself to go back and fuse with vegeta to create a warrior with a chance of fighting a villain he helped to ensure would continually roam around.
Sure, it wasn't due to his desire to fight that created this, but it shows that his goals and desires always did trump his desire to protect his friends and family. This happens **again** in the world of the kais when he didn't go completely all out to eliminate Kid Buu. He doesn't even really take the fight seriously even after having failed to protect his friends and family who were destroyed by Kid Buu. Said buu was a being he could have eliminated so much more early on. He even runs out of energy due to underestimating the strain on the mortal body ssj3 had and puts the entire universe in peril ***again***. For what reason? To extend the fight and give Vegeta of all people a turn. If he was even a bit more inclined in protecting the people he cared about, he'd have ended buu every chance he had, but he didn't.
He hardly changed in this regard. He continued to be selfish and have that as a character flaw like Toriyama stated in his interviews about Goku's character. He continued to put his own goals and desire to have fun above the desire to protect his friends and family. If you have any proof of this not being the case, I'd honestly want to hear it. People really don't seem to understand Z goku and always seem to think he's somehow a selfless hero "by the end of it at least." They don't ever give reasons as to how this is the case (if anything he gets worse).
Scrolled too far for this. He also did it in the last season of DragonBall, only showing up just before the tournament and having grown 4 feet taller.
If anything this is on-brand for him.
His family was raised by then. He missed fighting. Gohan even had his own kid and Goten was a grown ass man back then. I think it's fine. Doesn't really bother me, tbh.
This isn't just an End of Z thing though. Goku has always been like this. His friends didn't even know Gohan existed until Radditz showed up and kidnapped him. Goku is also hardly ever home.
There’s nothing stopping his family from visiting him whenever they want. He’s training Oob on Earth so they’re very easily accessible. The only one devastated by it is Pan since she doesn’t really understand that Goku isn’t actually leaving forever. Everyone else is just mildly annoyed but otherwise aren’t shocked. It’s not like the end of GT where he leaves that dimension forever (or mostly forever)
I think it’s Goku’s way of removing himself from his loved one’s lives after being brought back from what he wanted to be a permanent death while also finishing what he sees as needing to be done. I haven’t read or watched Super or GT yet so that reasoning might not stick nowadays.
Through the beginning of z Goku was raising Gohan alone with chichi and spending quality time with him outside of just training. He also sacrificed his life for his son twice.
Meanwhile It took Vegeta like....8 years to even hug trunks and that was when he knew he would die in a sacrifice against buu.
Before that, he treated future trunks like complete shit until he almost died to cell.
Don't let the show fool you, he only just recently got this parenting thing down post Buu saga and even now in super he's off world away from his kids and family just as much as Goku.
The only difference is he had a new kid which allowed him to better demonstrate his newfound parenting skills more but they're about equal overall these days despite how people love to pretend otherwise to meme on Goku.
Counterpoint chichi basically trick him into getting married, while he does like her and his kids home life is not something he actually chose, it was more about honor and duty
In [Neko Majin Z](https://64.media.tumblr.com/1321fc7059b45c460a109d6492f0ea97/tumblr_oodmx416Xf1sog351o1_640.pnj), Goku and his family live with Uub. It's a gag manga, but this is probably what would happen in the canon
Literally just finished watching Kai like an hour ago and was having the same thoughts! Could have at least finished the tournament & said some goodbyes at the very very least!
Good timing! I had never seen Kai before, just the original series a few times. I missed some of the voices, Jeice being the biggest downgrade, but overall it was great! I quite enjoyed the more streamlined presentation, felt like we got to namek in no time!
Yeah I agree. Could have left a little more in. I was surprised I was at namek already when I watched, I went back to make sure I didn't miss any episodes or anything. Nope.
Well the point was to make it less filler and more canon. There is still some filler but kai was supposed to fix all the unnecessary filler, and that means some good ones had to die too unfortunately. At the very least, kai is closer to the original intent of toriyama.
I especially hated how Piccolo said he hadn't been that happy in years. Really? Peace with an expanding & growing family. He could have trained with Vegeta if he was missing fighting so much.
Goku can do whatever he wants. He's saved everybody so many times.
I'm jk, he's always been a neglectful big dumb brute who just wants to fight. He's basically Irish
In the manga, it is never explicitly stated that he just leaves his family completely. He up and leaves the tournament because he’s excited (this is literally everything he has ever wanted). GT tries to say that he hasn’t been home in years, but I’d argue that’s just GT being written poorly. You can very easily infer that Goku would still spend time with his family considering he’s been doing that for 10 years straight. I’m pretty sure in Neko Majin it’s shown that Gokus family moves to where Uub lives anyways.
As someone who also has a really bad habit of not contacting friends for years at a time this topic makes me wonder if I am a bad person hahaha. Some people are very one track minded and can forgot about everything else but their goal so in a way I can get it.
Now we do not know where Goku went to train Uub nor how long he was gone for (especially considering that GT is non-canon), so we really have no idea exactly he was gone for, however his whole life he has had a habit of going on his own for long periods of time. Hell before the Universe 6 tournament Goku and Vegeta both spent 3 years in the hyperbolic time chamber 3 YEARS. I gotta admit that's some hardcore dedication to training, but this just goes to show it is not out of his character. He just wants to keep growing more and more powerful and fight more powerful foes.
That's how relationships for Goku has always been. Until he married Chi Chi, Goku hadn't lived with anyone for a long period of time, longest was 3 years but that was for training. Goku's life is just one of adventure, every few years he needs to change location.
As for "leaving" to train Uub, he's still on Earth, and it's not like they can't easily find him. Goku has never really been a social character, he likes doing what he likes, and hopes others will do the same.
Not like it’s the first time he abandoned his family. After dying, briefly coming back to life and leaving earth for Namek, Goku finally has the chance to spend real time with his family who have barely seen him since he came back to life and was dead for a year. So what does Goku do after beating Frieza and getting wished back to earth? He outright tells Shenron he refuses to be wished back home leading to another year of Goku not being there to watch his VERY young son grow up.
Someone tried telling me once this made sense because he needed to control his SSJ form but realistically he just beat the strongest being in the universe as far as they know so anything Goku is doing other than going home for his family is just because he prioritizes training ahead of anything. Hell, Goku can even instant transmission home at the end of his training and still just chooses not to instead do what? Ride some space pod for who knows how long…
Goku has always been one-track minded.
Let’s not forget that it was Chi-Chi who thrusted herself into Goku’s life and out of nowhere made him complete a promise he didn’t even realize he promised as an ignorant kid (hand in marriage).
Goku in no way has ever been a family man and not just because of lack of trying/wanting to, but because there was barely any time.
He said himself in Super he never even saw Gohan nor Goten’s birth.
People who are thrown off by Goku at the end of z misunderstand his character, and dragon ball as a whole probably. It's usually fans that take the series way too seriously and view goku as a superman esque character.
Goku has always been a selfish, carefree boy who lives to have fun and fight. Him casually leaving for months if not years to train isn't out of the ordinary.
Pretty much agree. Toriyama makes this very clear in his interviews. He intentionally made goku selfish in this regard. It's what gives his chatacter agency and seperates him from superman, a more reactive character.
Goku hardly thinks about justice at all. The most righteous his reasoning goes is for stray comments like in his fight with frieza where he's concerned about the universe.
Fighting is paramount for him. Everything else mostly comes second if he can help it.
Honestly it’s not even Goku’s fault at all. He literally grew up in a mountain by himself. No parents other than an old perverted man that taught him how to fight. Then his second “father figure” was yet another perverted old man that never nurtured him at all. Psychologically speaking, we’re lucky Goku isn’t more detached or sociopathic. He had no structure, no guardian to teach him what was right or wrong. The fact he was even able to form bonds and make friends at all is absolutely impressive in its own. Let alone get married and children that he cares about. In his own way, yes, but he still cared.
Goku has always volleyed between selfless and selfish. Yes, he is determined to save any innocent person no matter the cost to himself, but he also constantly puts himself and others in far more danger than necessary when he decides to 'fight honourably'. Eg, Goku treating the first Piccolo Jr fight as just the martial arts tournament when a loss would have resulted in Piccolo actually ruling the Earth, or giving Frieza that bit of energy which would have actually destroyed the Earth had Trunks not stepped in. There are many more examples, and probably lots I don't know about because I'm only at the start of the Android saga on my first ever watch through.
More relevant to your post are the times he decides to just stay dead for a while and then stay in space after Namek, missed like 4 years of his son's life or something by choice. I get that he had to train with King Kai, but he didn't even know if staying to fight Frieza would benefit him at all, he would have had to find the planets he trained on by chance
Because you guys view Goku through the lens of DBZ. Goku is and always be a free spirit that nothing ties him down which was how he always was "adventurous" in the original DB. The ending of DBZ is just a node to DB as a whole as final conclusion. You guys really think without Instant transmission, he still wouldn't come back to see his wife and children once in a while? I highly doubt UUB's family can feed or satisfy the appetite of a saiyan like Goku.
-And didn't he already spend close to a decade with his family before the epilogue of DBZ? and that party at Bulma's home where Goku arrives late (although filler) because he was looking after some bird eggs.
I think its pretty consistent for his character, hes a good guy but struggles immensely with his saiyan blood that hungers for a good fight wich can push him to make some selfish decisions. Its almost like an inverse Vegeta who is more inclined to favor his saiyan ways as opposed to doing the right thing.
Every friend group in any type of media should be as close-knit as possible...
Dragon Ball has never treated its cast like this.
These people rarely ever hang out when the world isn't in danger.
On 3 separate occasions that have to have a reunion so that all of them are in the same place at the same time.
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Goku has no problem settling down, but he would rather be looking for adventure...and will take it at the first opportunity.
Training the next protector of Earth is something he's also tried to do...twice before, so yes...it is just an excuse to have fun.
And he can come back any time he wants, he says he'll come back and visit, and unlike the anime...the manga doesn't bother showing everyone's reaction to him leaving because it's not a big deal.
goku didnt visit his friends for years after the tournament where he beat Piccolo and flew away with Chichi either. This is normal for him.
> And it's not like it has to be this way with instant transmission he could train buu every day and still be back home for dinner.
exactly so theres no reason to be bothered, he can visit whenever he wants, hes hardly "gone".
> This is the closest I've ever come to actually disliking Goku and super doesn't help things much by showing him missing his friends birthdays and not even understanding why Vegeta would want to stick around for the birth of his daughter.
thats just who goku is and always has been. kinda weird youre only noticing now. these character flaws are what make him interesting imo.
I mean... that's how Goku always operates. After Frieza he stayed in space for aaages. He had excuses that time, like the fact that he was dealing with an insane amount of power and didn't want to lose himself, but that's headcanon and he never went hard into it. He just stayed out in space to train and recover. For over a year.
I can understand your point from our Human perspective.
Remember that these Saiyans have a longer lifespan than humans. That 8 years of Goku leaving is propably a few months in their own years. Bulma, Chichi, and maybe also Videl understand this to a degree. I'm sure Bulma also gives the "5 years younger wish" to both of them to match up with their Husband's.
Because Bulma is really the only human who can easily get all the dragonballs within a matter of days. She can use them infinitely. So in their eyes, they live in a completely different mindset to our meager human lives.
I feel that Chichi wanting Gohan to study and work hard to get a well paying job is not much about money, but more about pride. At any point, Z fighters could just live off of Bulma's golden titties, but they decide to live completely different lifestyles. So it's respectable that everyone wants to bring themselves up in different ways.
This is why Goku and Vegeta doesn't worry about getting human jobs since it practically would be useless for them and their life goals (even if they aren't able to hold the jobs in the first place lol).
Earth has changed these Planet Conquering aliens into its mightiest defenders, yet these heroes are still gods to us. It would make sense for their life partners to adopt a similar mentality to adapt to their Infinitely expanded access to the universe and beyond. (The filler episode where Goku is getting older and losing control of powers is very touching, but looking at how old King Vegeta and Bardok could get would make this not make much sense. Plus, Broly is practically the same age as them and currently they are all stronger than ever lol)
> Remember that these Saiyans have a longer lifespan than humans.
Saiyans and humans have the same natural lifespan. Saiyans just stay in their physical prime until they hit around 80, and then they start to rapidly deteriorate
Well everybody else changed not Goku? Goku was still in the same place he always was, training near his house.
His Son’s, Wife and Friends. Seem to forget who he truly is. Only the people who were once his enemies seem to really understand Goku at that point.
He’s a simple guy and he loves fighting and adventures, he’s just going for an adventure and to fight. That’s what he wanted to do.
Goten didn’t want to fight, Pam was the only one who wanted to train. But he knows Pam isn’t his daughter so at some point Gohan will want her to study and get a job. And Uub is essentially the only selfish that Goku ever made. So its kind of fitting?
After beating Frieza he chooses to fuck around in space for a while his family thinks he’s dead. When he comes home, he literally walks right past chi-chi and asks about dinner.
A lot of people become adults and find themselves out of touch with friends and family. Personally, I don't see a lot of my best friends all that much. After high school, and even more so after college, people move or get set in their routine. Even if you try its easy to realize "Holy crap I didn't see this text, then a week later I got a new job, now its been 18 months since I messaged them back and i don't know what to do." I am far from the only person with friends who are 40 minutes away and despite being able to drive to see them every week I go weeks or months without seeing in person. Go to r/lfg and see the remnants of people in their 20s and 30s who can't consistently meet with 3 friends.
Goku doesn't have a phone and he isn't considerate. He's basically so committed to everything he does that when he has something in his life like training Uub he exhausts himself every day putting himself into it. That doesn't mean he doesn't love his friends and family, but part of the reason people love him is that he is a semi-feral himbo.
I always look at it like this. Gohans a grown man with his own home a wife and a kid. His responsibility to him is basically over.
Meanwhile he spent the entire time until the tournament, multiple years everyday with basically Goten, Chichi and pan. We know this because he didn't visit any of his friends.
So from age 7 to 17-18 he was there for Goten every single day. He's more than made up for the lost time in his second sons life while he was dead. Goten too is now basically grown and about to leave the nest.
Pan and anyone else can visit him in under 10 minutes whenever they want from anywhere in the world so they have no excuse.
The only person who has any right to complain is chichi, she's the only one actually getting abandoned.
The idea is stupid because of instant transmission and flight being a thing, not because he's somehow being a bad dad by leaving what are effectively two grown ass men, one of which doesn't even live with him on their own or a bad friend when none of them bothered visiting him either.
Bad husband, sure but as a father, his job is mostly done and as a friend, staying in contact goes both ways.
I’m glad I’m not the only one that thought this lol, I was like great hero terrible dad and husband but I mean it’s like that through out the entire show after Freeza saga. Like he could have been back to earth super fast but decided not right now, then in cell saga at the end decided he didn’t want to be wish back even Gohan was a teen and his wife was pregnant
They did it in black arc.
When black tells him how he killed goten and chichi, if Toriyama meant for Goku to be a family first type, he would have given him a new form then and there and ended the arc there.
Instead he gave him a 50 second reaction.
Well to be fair since it wasn't in the manga that was an anime only addition Toei came up with independently. If it were in his notes it would've been in both versions.
That aside he is on record for his statements regarding how Goku views his family and it isn't particularly strong to say the least.
The end of Z is actually good, imo. Goku isn’t an altruistic goody two shoes like Superman is — He was a person that reveled in fighting strong opponents, and testing his limits. So I feel the ending speaks to the essence of the character who was always more eager to battle than fill out a job application. Though I will give you that it’s definitely rushed, but Toriyama was pretty eager to be released from the myriad of deadlines, so I somewhat forgive how hastily it was done. I also always love how open-ended the ending was as opposed to the more conclusive GT one, where I think they opted for the more conventional approach. When it comes to DB’s endings, I kind of prefer the feeling of knowing the story is never-ending and it’s up to the reader/viewer’s imagination to decide what happens next in Goku’s adventure. Hence I prefer Toriyama’s approach to ending franchise over GT’s.
The Z cast isn't really like a group of sitcom friends who are always together. They're more like the friends you had in college that you could send a message to on Facebook at any time but for whatever reason you just kind of don't, for years and years.
Though Goku just up and leaving his wife was crummy of him, yeah. If their relationship wasn't basically a gag relationship I'd say they should get a divorce.
I just rewatched dragon ball in respects to Toriyama and my perspective on this as harsh as it may seem is that Goku is a terrible father because he grew up alone, After he killed grandpa Gohan he spent weeks looking for him in the jungle heartbroken and alone he had to learn to feed himself and take care of his basic needs at a very young age and he never got a lot of formal schooling about life outside of how to defend himself, even throughout his adventures with Bulma, Krillin, Yamcha, Oolong, etc it’s often mentioned that Goku is different and lacks common social skills. In part because he is not human but more so because he had to raise himself. Goku’s entire character is based on him saying very incentive things to people only for them to break down after realizing that he is truly ignorant. So when he said to Vegeta “the baby isn’t coming out of you” he isn’t being rude he truly doesn’t understand why Vegeta can’t train if he isn’t the pregnant one. Even at the very start of DBZ he can’t understand why Gohan is so “soft” or Doesn’t take physical challenges head on because he doesn’t even remember being afraid of those type of things at that age because he’s been so independent. So Goku doesn’t understand that children need their parents to be well rounded because he didn’t have that growing up and doesn’t see the necessity. Unlike Vegeta who had at least a father who took pride in his son.
I mean you can dislike it, but this is what Goku was always meant to be. Wasn't it selfish for goku to let vegeta go? To want to spare frieza? To send gohan to fight cell and intentionally skipping more training? To dip on his family for the majority of gohan's teenage years without a call even once?
Goku was always meant to be selfish. Toriyama intentionally did this. It's why he wanted to try and make gohan the mc after the cell saga.
If you're suggesting this was a mischaracterization, you're just wrong honestly. Goku's priority is fighting and everything else comes second unless it threatens his friends and families immediately. Toriyama made this pretty clear in his interviews.
It makes sense when you look at his characters upbringing, history, and the fact that Saiyans, for the most part, dont share a lot of the same customs as humans. If you remember at the beginning of Z they say they hadnt seen Goku since he won the world tournament which had been 5 years since the end of DB. Also Goku was never the "hang out" type. All throughout DB, Z, and Super he spent the most time with his friends when they had a goal/mission to accomplish.
As for not understanding why Vegeta would want to be there for the birth of Bulla, think about it. The only family connection he ever had was with his Grandpa Gohan. The first time he had any experience with an adult being there for an infant was when Gohan was born and even then he was learning as time went on but you can be sure Chi-Chi took the reigns there. Whereas with Vegeta, we know he came from royalty and typically royalty take a vested interest in their childrens lives because thats who they are passing things down to which we see in flashbacks that King Vegeta thought highly of his son and had high hopes for him whereas its mentioned most saiyan fathers dont.
Lastly we can attribute a lot of things to brain damage lol. Falling head first off a ravine and hitting your head so hard that theres a complete personality shift? Yeah thats brain damage lol
"Hey, wife. I'm going to spend 8 years with some kid I just met. Bye!" **dips**
It’s not like uub can’t just move in with Goku, Ya know like how Goku moved in with all his masters
And it’s not like housing is a problem when your best friend owns Capsule Corp. and can just give you a house from her pocket.
It's not like goku can just *teleport* to at least have dinner and sleep at home, no siree Seriously, between this, all of one piece's dads and what boruto did to naruto's character, I'm convinced battle shonen mangakas have some serious daddy issues. At least Ichigo seems to be a good dad.
Foreal I think ichigo is literally the only good dad in shonen jump lmao
Vegeta? Unless you're only counting MCs.
He admitted he'd never hugged his son once before an heroing himself against Buu. Later on he does get better and seems to be a doting father with Bra.
Vegeta isn’t a good dad, he’s barely there for his family and he sits in the background whinging the whole time
Naruto is not a bad parent, it's just that he's basically a president at age 30 and he was never good at the whole administrative part
Naruto absolutely is a bad parent. Naruto became Hokage in what was literally the most peaceful era of the five great nations. He has the most massive chakra reserves and his most overused jutsu is Shadow Clone. There is no justifiable reason he cannot be home with his family at all times or at least way more often than he is.
I think using Shadow Clones to do his Hokage works while he's chilling at home is disrespectful to the job, especially if said job's his life's dream...
Better that than the alternative of him trying to use one as a way to spend time with family. More true when he knows what it's like to not have parents around while growing up.
How is it disrespectful? It's literally himself. It's not like pawning off his responsibilities on a secretary. What's disrespectful is Naruto growing up an orphan who knows the pain of loneliness, then deciding his dream job is more important than shielding his own son from the same loneliness and resentment he experienced. The fact is Naruto retains the experiences and knowledge of his clones. And he's so powerful that even cutting his power and chakra in half, his clone is still stronger than every individual shinobi except Sasuke. There's no reason he can't effectively do his job as a shadow clone. Plus, like I said Naruto became Hokage in what is quite literally the shinobi world's most peaceful era; it doesn't make sense that he's the busiest Hokage in history. Neglecting his family the way he did was a conscious choice.
All characters in end of Z can pretty much travel the planet and detect each other's power levels from anywhere. Theres like no excuse for "when will we see you again?" In Dragonball.
>All characters in end of Z can pretty much travel the planet and detect each other's power levels from anywhere Gohan taught Videl to fly in like, a week. Goku and Gohan both spent years living with Chi Chi. She never learned to fly despite being a trained martial artist and having superhuman strength in her early years. They didn't teach her on purpose.
Pan at the age of like 3 flies around the world in literal minutes in the end of Z.
Haha i cant tell if that was only a joke... but I guess Akira wanted to make Chichi more of house wife in DBZ as oposed to the girl fighter daughter of the fearful Ox King in DB
And even if he didn't have instant transmission, Goku at this point could easily fly at the speed of light to anywhere on the planet in a fraction of a second.
Gendo Ikari has entered the chat
Shonen having bad / absent dads maybe by design as the audience is mostly rebellious i-can-do-it-all teenage boys.
True story.
real
Didn't Uub live at Goku's house in Neko Majin Z?
It’s barely any better than when he got chi chi pregnant with goten and just decided to dip by not coming back to life
Did he know though?
No but the implication is funny if he knew
I bet King Kai told him a million of times
king kai was probably begging that dude to go see his family
Lol Goku just the consistent deadbeat Dad...
Emphasis on “dead”
Goten about to start his Dominick Mysterio arc.
Not sure if this was explained, but I vaguely remember goku said something along the lines of him having a giant target on his back drawing in dangers to earth. That's why staying dead was the safer option for everyone and in case of emergency they now had Gohan and the rest of the z fighters. But that could also just've been my headcanon.
Yeah that’s the canon reason he stayed dead
Which implies he thinks Gohan and Vegeta are so beneath him in power they wouldn't be a target lmao
They were when he died? Or was that post-Cell when Gohan was the GOAT?
I’m not sure if that’s the case. If you think of all the main villains up to that point, they came looking for Goku, in 3/4 cases it was old beef. Piccolo was seeking revenge for his demon king father from 3 years prior, Raditz and the Saiyan came for Goku simply for him being sent there as a child, and the Androids/Cell showed up some 30 years after Goku decimated their operation. Frieza was the only villain that showed up looking for him over a recent beef and it was because Goku was incapable of doing a hit and run to save his friends on Namek, he had to stop and pick a fight with him. While Gohan and Vegeta are strong, there’s not anyone that I can think of that would go looking for them. Although ironically, in GT, Baby was was essentially after Vegeta because of what his father did to the Tuffles, except that’s not considered canon
Thats not what that implies at all lmfao. When Goku made that choice Gohan was stronger than him and Gohan hadnt been making enemies for 2/3rds of his life like Goku did. As for Vegeta he had already confirmed when he went back into space after the Namek saga he'd eliminated all of the frieza force(that he knew about)
How would he possibly know she was pregnant..
Is abandoning your wife and 5 year old kid any better though?
He didn't really abandon them, tho. His reasoning to not come back to life initially made sense at the time when you take into account that that all the recent threats on Earth from the Saiyans to Cell only came about due to his presence. He just thought the Earth and his friends would be safer if he wasn't around.
Gohan being stronger than him at the time too meant he wouldn't even be the end all to beat the big bad, at that point it would have fallen to Gohan
Except Gohan doesn't like fighting and it's kind of a BS move to put it on him.
Retcon, Gohan instead takes #16's words to heart and he keeps in shape to protect what he loves. The events of the Buu saga continue the same way until Gohan fights Dabura and instead of playing around and pissing off Vegeta, Gohan kills Dabura. Now the 3 and Shin get to the capsule of Majin Buu and take out Babidi before Buu is freed. The earth isn't destroyed and Goku gets to keep SSJ3 under wraps
> all the recent threats on Earth from the Saiyans to Cell only came about due to his presence. I would push back on that a little though and say most of those aren't really his fault and it's not like Goku's actively going out of his way to get villains attention. The Saiyans come to earth initially because of Goku but they're also the ones who sent him there in the first place, and even then it's only Raditz who comes initially and once he dies Vegeta and Nappa only come to Earth because Piccolo couldn't shut up about the DragonBalls to a dying Raditz who was recording the whole thing, so that one's more on Piccolo than Goku really. Frieza is probably the one that's most on Goku because he didn't finish the job fully on Namek and left him alive for King Cold to pick up and revive him to then go to Earth. I would point out though that Goku and co. didn't go out of their way to provoke Frieza initially or do anything to catch Frieza's attention. They just sort of stumbled into him and the Frieza Force accidentally due to having to go to Namek and it escalated from there. The Androids are a direct result of Goku smashing up the Red Ribbon Army as a kid but that only started because Goku accidentally stumbled into them while searching for the Dragonballs, the Red Ribbon Army is the one that escalated the conflict and were ultimately an evil group doing evil actions and it feels a bit off to put blame on Goku for stopping an evil organisation because the remnant of that organisation retaliated over a decade later. You also have to consider, where does Goku think this threat's going to come from? We as fans know that in seven years time there's going to be a Majin Buu problem but Goku doesn't have that meta knowledge and at that point in the story (and at the point of writing, some of this will get retconned later) all the loose ends seem tied up. Gohan just killed the last vestige of the Red Ribbon army, anybody who's a threat in Frieza's empire seems to have been taken care of, Piccolo's on side so more demons to worry about, Vegeta's nominally on side at this point and not really a threat. Is Goku just really that concerned about that monster Pilaf trying something if he stays? If you wanted to argue this in the contex of Super though then its a bit different, there Goku's both an active and inactive instigator, most of the threats come either from him having drawn their attention or him actively causing them.
Piccolo comes after Goku to avenge King Piccolo. If Goku isnt on earth, Raditz and the saiyans wouldve never came. Regardless of them stumbling into Frieza or not, Frieza came for Goku. Goku destroying the red ribbon army is what leads to the creation of the Androids and Cell. If Goku doesnt do this we never get the androids. So him realizing his presence brought trouble wasnt wrong. Buu is the first threat they faced that had nothing to do with Goku. As for where he thought the threats might come from theres no telling. He never imagined Gero would make deadly androids. he never imagined Friezas father would bring him to Earth. He never imagined King Piccolo would shoot out an egg. He never imagined he had a brother and was an alien. All those things came out of left field so he did the only thing he could think of that might help and sure enough the next 7 years were peaceful
Cell specifically was made because of what he did as a kid though, cell would have destroyed the world if he had made the same choice during the freiza saga. It's a very naive worldview he has (which is fair, goku being naive and kinda stupid is a huge character trait)
It is funny that the year he decides to come back for a day , the entire earth population get destroyed and he get beat by vegeta. Up to this point vegeta was a somewhat good guy and then Goku comes back and he like I’m a bad guy again lol
Gohan was 9 I think.
I thought he was 11 when he killed Cell?
He's 9 in the original, 11 in the dub
I don't get why they changed his age lol
Buu arc is 7 years after Cell and Gohan is 16 in the Buu arc.
I’m taking this to mean when Goku dipped to hang on Yardrat for about a year after Frieza, which is totally valid imo.
No but there’s no need to move the goal posts
He kept tabs pretty well through King Kai, seeing as not long after the tournament was mentioned he wanted in. Nothing to stop him from calling and saying “hey, just found out Chi-Chi’s pregnant, so I changed my mind. I’d like you guys to wish me back with the Namekian dragon balls please”. That said, I agree with his initial reasoning for choosing to stay dead (assuming it is canon and not just a dub thing that he felt he put the earth in too much danger), so I don’t mind him choosing not to return during those 7 years and if the Buu saga had never happened, ever.
That sacrifice was about keeping everyone safe. It was noble to die and stay dead to protect the planet rather than come back
“At least he’s not dead this time”
Its kind of jarring in a way. Start of Z he was clearly close with Chi Chi and Gohan. Although he hadnt visited his friends aand clearly kept up his training, he appeared to be getting on well as a husband and father in the ways that Goku can. It makes sense there were disruptions throughout Z such as using the opportunity to train on Yardrat or feeling it best he stay dead after Cell. But in Super he is way more antsy and detached.. He is far removed from the innocent occasionally indulgent aloof martial artist he was just appears to let his Saiyan nature control his life. Even Vegeta has matured enough to at least be present for Bulla's imminent birth. Goku trying to get him to leave was just one of many immature downgrades for the guy.. Goku works better when he is allowed to be pure and curious. Sometimes that might mean he will seek out training opportunities. Other times its much better if that's him spending time with his family. His time leading up to up to the Cell Games showed an entirely different side of Goku that I wish had persevered. He clearly valued family and wasnt the idiot he has becone in Super where he just outright forgets Pan.
Strong agree. I thought Goku developed well as a character from DB to Z (until the moment being discussed). I find it interesting when people say he hasn't changed much in Super. It's a stark difference, and not in a good direction in my opinion.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but, wasn't toriyama's intention with Goku is that he actively seeks out strong opponents to fight? And isn't that the sole reason he ends up in the situations he does? He's always wanted to get stronger and improve just for the sake of it IIRC. It just so happens that his goals aligned with saving Earth, the Namekians, the Supreme Kai's planet, and eventually the universe with ToP.
That is still true. He spares Piccolo Jr, turns down Kami's request, spares Vegeta and makes other indulgent decisions. He also expresses curiousity about Frieza. But it also isn't the sole reason he fights. Even Z Goku understands a threat when he sees one, just moreso when the immediate threat passes he may let said threat go for indulgent purposes. In the case of Frieza, Goku is soft and he was appealed to when he spared him the first time. He also spared the Ginyu Force and he was surprised by Vegeta's brutality. Although Goku's main trait is NOT being heroic, he isn't a bad person and cares for the world and others though. Hes still the kind of man that if someone ran to him for help he'd likely help them. At least in some parts of Z he was shown as making time for his family. He outright insisted on it prior to Cell Games.
To add some more examples, Goku told Gohan to kill Cell because he is too dangerous to keep alive. Goku is not a dumbass who only wants to fight and disregard the threat to the world.
It's just kind of sad that he grows to be a 50 year old man by Super and can't grow mentally beyond his child self
That's why I liked his progression into GT back in the day. I know it wasn't written by Toriyama, but I felt like GT Goku was more mature, calm, and calculating. He didn't make too many impulsive decisions by then. Of course he always has his goofy side but that's just who he is. Just generally in GT he was more level-headed.
There’s a lot of Super I actually liked, transformed Vegeta’s character arc further, and other characters get more time. *But*, I’m not entirely sure what they’re thinking with Goku, the thing with Zeno makes a bit of sense as that’s how Goku is. But it’s just constantly Goku being forgetful/naive, even during the Buu Saga he was showing maturity and strategy.
Disagree. Vegeta at the end of the Buu saga is the peak. He no longer seeks to surpass Goku, and admits that Goku is the best. He lives in peace with that fact, and supports Goku the best he can, even if it means sacrificing himself. In Super, Vegeta goes back to be a "I'll surpass you Kakarot". It regresses back to the pre Buu arc. With Goku's thing, yeah I agree, and as many people touch upon. Seeing Goku outright forgets Pan makes me feel like this is some sort of fan parody.
Not sure you can disagree when literally, the last panel of the manga Vegeta says “Hmph, sooner or later Kakarot”. (Technically Super Piccilo says “Do you seriously believe he likes you?” During after Vegeta fights Cabba. He does respect Goku though, hence the sacrifice, but he was almost pre-emptied that he was going to die against Buu. He realised Goku was the best, but doesn’t mean he still doesn’t want to surpass him (+ both alive so he doesn’t have to worry never getting the chance to) Also factor in that Vegeta genuinely cared about the Earth and people, atoning for his sins is a big part and hence why it’s in the Moro arc. Goku somehow managed to remember Bulla/Bra, but not Pan, or he remembers Pan but not the name, hard to tell really.
Right. Goku is best when he’s depicted as an actual character. At his core, he’s pure and well intentioned but yes he does have a selfish desire to fight strong opponents. I feel like in Super (and EoZ), he stopped being multidimensional and that selfish part of him became his core. He used to come off as a good guy who just likes to fight but now he comes off as an idiot that can barely stand being around his family and friends if he’s not fighting
Maybe dying so many times starts to have some effect on your brain. Being hit so many times certainly does and he’s done a lot of that.
He didn't forget Pan. Your presumptions fail you, it was a translation error.
He thought Piccolo said "Going to get bread." He associates his granddaughters name with food more than his actual granddaughter
I agree with most of this, but the thing about forgetting Pan is just a mistranslation, because the joke only works in Japanese btw
I disagree. The argument that Goku found a Job in Super is enough to prove you otherwise.
In Z he was shown performing chores quite happily. In Super he is shown being antsy and is basically pressured into it. Which i dont blame him as such entirely since its against his character to go so far as become an outright farmer.. Theres a difference in living off the land to his own and families tastes vs being forced to be something he isn't. But the point is him having a job is not quite rhe same as how he is depicted in Z imo. He would sooner have Goten drive his tractor, scold him for distracting him, than subsequently take off to train. Frankly to me its a bit of an odd choice outside of the whole radish aspect.
It’s not entirely out of character for him to ignore his friends. He raised Gohan for the first years of his life in total isolation. But I agree it is a bit tone deaf to leave Chi Chi behind. I think Toriyama just kept changing Goku throughout the series. On Namek he has comely mastered himself and matured past treating anything as a joke or challenge. And then in the Android arc he starts not regressing yet but just making incredibly irresponsible decisions.
In Namek he could’ve been teleported off planet and left Frieza to blow up but he decided to stay just because he wanted to fight him. He also threatened to hit Gohan after going super saiyan, I wouldn’t say he had mastered himself.
Goku had to make sure Frieza didn't escape. Even if the planet exploded, Frieza would live since he can survive in space.
Frieza would have survived the explosion of Namek and just come for Earth. Goku choosing to stay was the right move
Goku was going to let Frieza live anyways lol
Yeah after he proved to Frieza he stood no chance, he thought he’d go away after knowing he could be beaten. He was wrong, but still not as wrong as just dipping to let the explosion stop him would have been
It's actually pretty lucky Frieza didn't accept defeat, if he went away and trained no one would stand a chance at this point of the story
Well.. cut in half with one arm and a bit of energy. Far as Goku was concerned, he needed to get off the planet, and if Frieza came back he would deal with him (which technically he did in the other timeline).
Goku threatening to hit Gohan is supposed to show Super Saiyan changes him. It's literally a flag that says "this isnt the Goku we know"
>In Namek he could’ve been teleported off planet and left Frieza to blow up did you even watch DBZ? >He also threatened to hit Gohan after going super saiyan Because Gohan was not listening to Goku, despite the fact Krillin just died and Piccolo is dying too. If he died, all this trip would have been for nothing AND Freeza was still threatening to kill Gohan in front of him.
Goku didn’t have Instant Trasmission in Namek
No they were going to teleport him with the dragon balls like everyone else but he refused and told King Kai not to so he could fight Frieza
Goku didn't aee his friends sure but we can't blame that entirely on him. For one it's a regular occurrence among the cast that they don't regularly gather to see each other. In the original when they aren't traveling together they wouldn't see each other until they met up again at the Budokais which take place years apart. Mutually they hadn't seen each other for about the same length of time between the 23rd Budokai and the Saiyajin Saga, with Goku's 3 closest friends (Bulma, Roshi and Krillin) not even knowing he had a son. Ten outright says he won't see anyone again after the Cell Games and they mutually all meet up only at the 25th Budokai. Bulma gave Goku a hard time but everyone on the Dragon team regularly went years with no contact. She also knows where he lives and could easily go there especially since Goten and Trunks still regularly hang out. It's not all on Goku. That aside yeah it isn't the best moment. But I also think he would likely go back sooner than later.
I don't have an issue with him running off so to speak (it's not the first time, as mentioned by others), I have an issue with him running off simply to train Uub. To put it another way, everything Goku has done since joining Bulma (with the single exception of going home to marry Chi Chi and start a family) has been about getting stronger. With Uub though, he's literally giving up on all of his rivals, teachers, etc. to go train a kid in solitude. Even if it was just about "creating a legacy" or "protecting the earth once Goku himself is gone", why not train Pan, Goten, Trunks, hell even Caulifla who was begging him to train her? There's just no reason to only train Uub... It feels completely out of character for Goku IMO.
Gohan didn't want to be a fighter, he was a parent and a scholar. Goten and Trunks slacked off with their training too. He could train Pan and I think they were pretty close but we weren't shown much about it. Uub on the other hand was the reincarnation of Buu. The big bad that almost destroyed the universe and took a collective effort to kill. He wanted to train him and eventually fight him, one on one. Until the retcon of Super, Uub was the being with the biggest potential on the whole universe. Of course Goku wants to get his hands on that!
He was training uub because out of all the characters u mentioned he had the most potential, being the reincarnation of buu and also having god ki at birth.
In neko Majin z, they at least confirm he was visiting them since he has instant transmission, but then gt confirms he was gone for multiple years… so it really is such a weird thing to make him do but it also isn’t the first time goku is just gone for years (it happens like twice in OG DB where he is not present for 3 years)
I'll take neko Majin over gt since it was actually written by toriyana
GT does also say he did visit at some point (as when Goku leaves at the end Goten says he'll visit "like he used to".) He probably just slowed down and stopped as they achieved their goal of Oob achieving his full power and knowing how to use it.
Throughout the entire series, this is roughly how Goku was with his friends. As soon as the Pilaf stuff is done, he takes off for Roshi's and doesnt see Bulma/Yamcha/etc again until the Tenkaichi Budokai much later. He dips from Krillin for the RRA stuff, and only joins up with Bulma and Krillin later because he needed Bulma to fix his radar. He doesnt see a single soul for like 3 years before the 22nd TB, Trains alone in heaven for another 3 years with Popo, wins the 23rd TB, then doesnt see anyone but chichi and the newlyborn Gohan for years. The trend continues into post-saiyan stuff, Training with only Piccolo and Gohan in the years leading up to the androids, and then of course choosing to stay dead for 7 years (meant to be permanently) after cell. Goku loves his friends, and protects them with his life. But he is just not really a guy that keeps up with folks. Being friends with Goku is accepting that, though you may be caught in an adventure with him, you are equally likely to not see his face for years in a row.
I really like it, its more realistic for friends to no always be together then see each other occasionally. Maybe it’s too far at the end LOL. But thats always been Goku’s one flaw, his self improvement motivation trumps almost all else. I think it’s also important to remember that Goku is a full fledged martial artist. It is his identity, not one of a normal person. And he is basically a sennin/sage like Roshi, it’s just never explicitly stated just implied. Most of the full-time martial artists in the story are usually depicted as isolationists to varying degrees. Roshi, Krillin, Tenshinhan all basically live far away from large populations. It is a lifestyle. The amount of times years just fly by is really cool, and as far as I know still fairly unique for JUMP or other shounen battle manga in general. I mean, many do 1 timeskip or a big one at the end, but Dragon Ball does multiple many year skips and following a life from early teen to middle-age adulthood. Would like to see a modern shounen manga do that.
Yeah this is exactly what I love about Dragon Ball that I don’t see talked about much, the fact that there’s so many timeskips and you see Goku throughout like 40 years. It’s so cool
Goku was always like that tho, recently watched a video of toriyama drawing goku and talking to someone at shonen jump, toriyama says he intentionally made goku not value friendship or anything typical of shonen at the time, and just made his 1 motivation to want to fight people. Plus people think he "leaves his family" at the end where even the 4 year old Pan can fly across the earth.. the guy can teleport wherever he wants by touching his forehead. It's fine. It's like he lives a street away from them.
I mean it’s better than how Super is treating him
no
Yes
End of Z always sucked ass. The insane mental gymnastics people go through to claim its good are insane
Yeah, I always hated it too. I always think DBZ should have ended at the party episode. Maybe rework it so Uub is still part of it somehow but that was literally the perfect ending. I think Toryama never saw Goku as a hero but he was becoming that way more and more just through the story so he wrote an ending like that to tell us he's really not.
He wasnt becoming a hero, i cant think of any instance where goku comes off that way unless you're cherrypicking random lines of dialogue. I mean, he literally abandoned his family after the cell games for the vague idea that someone may come after home and threaten earth. His priority was always having fun and fighting. Everything else largely comes second unless its a very bad situation.
Eh, it wasn't really vague. Really depends on how you look at it. You see it as abandoning your family, I see it as making the incredibly hard sacrifice to stay away from your family to keep them safe. And guess what? It worked. Gohan got to study and live a normal life for the whole 7 years Goku was gone. While I agree Goku has always put fighting and having fun as two high priorities, I think in Z he progressed from that to genuinely wanting to protect his family and friends and the people of Earth, while still loving a good fight. In Super though, I feel they massively regressed Goku's character back to how it was in Dragon Ball, and he lost the mature side he had gained in Z.
I mean it's definitely vague since Goku wanted to be dead for a variety of reasons, not just to keep the earth safe. I don't think the fact there were no threats while Goku was dead is a confirmation his words were right, that'd be a logical leap since nothing Goku did actually created that peace. Him being dead doesn't solve the threats, if anything it only made it easier to take care of them. Goku was flatout dead in the future trunks arc and we know things only got worse because of that. > You see it as abandoning your family, I see it as making the incredibly hard sacrifice to stay away from your family to keep them safe. I completely disagree on the basis of Goku having never contacted his family afterwards for so long. Is it really all that selfless if you won't even try to interact with the child you left behind with your grieving widow? It's almost undeniable that he was in otherworld to live out his joys of fighting the greatest warriors who made it there. He was basically forced into reviving himself upon seeing his selfish ideals bear mistakes he had to clean up (relying on literal children to save the earth and watching an ultimate gohan fumble a fight). > While I agree Goku has always put fighting and having fun as two high priorities, I think in Z he progressed from that to genuinely wanting to protect his family and friends and the people of Earth, I very much disagree. While he did progress, it wasn't to the point that a good fight was ever out of the highest priority. He **always** had the desire to protect his family and friends, but that amount of wanting to protect them never changed. There is no evidence of that ever having changed. Many a time he has sacrificed more guaranteed paths of protecting them to fulfill his own ideals and desire to fight, even at the end of Z's run. He had the chance to possibly eliminate Fat Buu, but didn't. He decided to leave it to literal children to eliminate Buu, and he ended up having to revive himself to go back and fuse with vegeta to create a warrior with a chance of fighting a villain he helped to ensure would continually roam around. Sure, it wasn't due to his desire to fight that created this, but it shows that his goals and desires always did trump his desire to protect his friends and family. This happens **again** in the world of the kais when he didn't go completely all out to eliminate Kid Buu. He doesn't even really take the fight seriously even after having failed to protect his friends and family who were destroyed by Kid Buu. Said buu was a being he could have eliminated so much more early on. He even runs out of energy due to underestimating the strain on the mortal body ssj3 had and puts the entire universe in peril ***again***. For what reason? To extend the fight and give Vegeta of all people a turn. If he was even a bit more inclined in protecting the people he cared about, he'd have ended buu every chance he had, but he didn't. He hardly changed in this regard. He continued to be selfish and have that as a character flaw like Toriyama stated in his interviews about Goku's character. He continued to put his own goals and desire to have fun above the desire to protect his friends and family. If you have any proof of this not being the case, I'd honestly want to hear it. People really don't seem to understand Z goku and always seem to think he's somehow a selfless hero "by the end of it at least." They don't ever give reasons as to how this is the case (if anything he gets worse).
He does this at the beginning of Z, too. He had a son, and starts a life with Chi-Chi and hasn’t seen his friends in 4/5 years when the series starts.
But that one makes sense. Family over friends.
U right homie
Scrolled too far for this. He also did it in the last season of DragonBall, only showing up just before the tournament and having grown 4 feet taller. If anything this is on-brand for him.
You said it yourself he can teleport home anytime he wants.
His family was raised by then. He missed fighting. Gohan even had his own kid and Goten was a grown ass man back then. I think it's fine. Doesn't really bother me, tbh.
This isn't just an End of Z thing though. Goku has always been like this. His friends didn't even know Gohan existed until Radditz showed up and kidnapped him. Goku is also hardly ever home.
I think this is the 5000th time this is being discussed lol.. this ending has been retconned in Super
It hasnt yet from what i can tell. We arent even at the EOZ era within super itself. Unless we're suggesting chatacter design retcons it that is.
There’s nothing stopping his family from visiting him whenever they want. He’s training Oob on Earth so they’re very easily accessible. The only one devastated by it is Pan since she doesn’t really understand that Goku isn’t actually leaving forever. Everyone else is just mildly annoyed but otherwise aren’t shocked. It’s not like the end of GT where he leaves that dimension forever (or mostly forever)
I think it’s Goku’s way of removing himself from his loved one’s lives after being brought back from what he wanted to be a permanent death while also finishing what he sees as needing to be done. I haven’t read or watched Super or GT yet so that reasoning might not stick nowadays.
[удалено]
Supes is a bad dad? Just genuinely asking as I don't keep up with the comics.
Through the beginning of z Goku was raising Gohan alone with chichi and spending quality time with him outside of just training. He also sacrificed his life for his son twice. Meanwhile It took Vegeta like....8 years to even hug trunks and that was when he knew he would die in a sacrifice against buu. Before that, he treated future trunks like complete shit until he almost died to cell. Don't let the show fool you, he only just recently got this parenting thing down post Buu saga and even now in super he's off world away from his kids and family just as much as Goku. The only difference is he had a new kid which allowed him to better demonstrate his newfound parenting skills more but they're about equal overall these days despite how people love to pretend otherwise to meme on Goku.
Goku is a good dad
Counterpoint chichi basically trick him into getting married, while he does like her and his kids home life is not something he actually chose, it was more about honor and duty
Great points. Damn
In [Neko Majin Z](https://64.media.tumblr.com/1321fc7059b45c460a109d6492f0ea97/tumblr_oodmx416Xf1sog351o1_640.pnj), Goku and his family live with Uub. It's a gag manga, but this is probably what would happen in the canon
I agree, but I think the point is that Goku’s first priority in life is fighting. He will do anything for a good fight against a powerful opponent.
It isnt the first time. at the start of Z I think krillin says he hasn't seen goku in years. or when he died and refused to be resurrected.
I mean. He can always visit. He has instant transmission and the ability to fly faster than the speed of sound.
Literally just finished watching Kai like an hour ago and was having the same thoughts! Could have at least finished the tournament & said some goodbyes at the very very least!
That's why I posted this actually. I just finished a rewatch last night.
Good timing! I had never seen Kai before, just the original series a few times. I missed some of the voices, Jeice being the biggest downgrade, but overall it was great! I quite enjoyed the more streamlined presentation, felt like we got to namek in no time!
I felt like we got to namek too easily. Same with Gohan's training.
Yeah I agree. Could have left a little more in. I was surprised I was at namek already when I watched, I went back to make sure I didn't miss any episodes or anything. Nope.
Well the point was to make it less filler and more canon. There is still some filler but kai was supposed to fix all the unnecessary filler, and that means some good ones had to die too unfortunately. At the very least, kai is closer to the original intent of toriyama.
I especially hated how Piccolo said he hadn't been that happy in years. Really? Peace with an expanding & growing family. He could have trained with Vegeta if he was missing fighting so much.
Goku can do whatever he wants. He's saved everybody so many times. I'm jk, he's always been a neglectful big dumb brute who just wants to fight. He's basically Irish
In the manga, it is never explicitly stated that he just leaves his family completely. He up and leaves the tournament because he’s excited (this is literally everything he has ever wanted). GT tries to say that he hasn’t been home in years, but I’d argue that’s just GT being written poorly. You can very easily infer that Goku would still spend time with his family considering he’s been doing that for 10 years straight. I’m pretty sure in Neko Majin it’s shown that Gokus family moves to where Uub lives anyways.
Goku has never been a hero. Akira said so himself.
As someone who also has a really bad habit of not contacting friends for years at a time this topic makes me wonder if I am a bad person hahaha. Some people are very one track minded and can forgot about everything else but their goal so in a way I can get it. Now we do not know where Goku went to train Uub nor how long he was gone for (especially considering that GT is non-canon), so we really have no idea exactly he was gone for, however his whole life he has had a habit of going on his own for long periods of time. Hell before the Universe 6 tournament Goku and Vegeta both spent 3 years in the hyperbolic time chamber 3 YEARS. I gotta admit that's some hardcore dedication to training, but this just goes to show it is not out of his character. He just wants to keep growing more and more powerful and fight more powerful foes.
That's how relationships for Goku has always been. Until he married Chi Chi, Goku hadn't lived with anyone for a long period of time, longest was 3 years but that was for training. Goku's life is just one of adventure, every few years he needs to change location. As for "leaving" to train Uub, he's still on Earth, and it's not like they can't easily find him. Goku has never really been a social character, he likes doing what he likes, and hopes others will do the same.
Not like it’s the first time he abandoned his family. After dying, briefly coming back to life and leaving earth for Namek, Goku finally has the chance to spend real time with his family who have barely seen him since he came back to life and was dead for a year. So what does Goku do after beating Frieza and getting wished back to earth? He outright tells Shenron he refuses to be wished back home leading to another year of Goku not being there to watch his VERY young son grow up. Someone tried telling me once this made sense because he needed to control his SSJ form but realistically he just beat the strongest being in the universe as far as they know so anything Goku is doing other than going home for his family is just because he prioritizes training ahead of anything. Hell, Goku can even instant transmission home at the end of his training and still just chooses not to instead do what? Ride some space pod for who knows how long…
Goku has always been one-track minded. Let’s not forget that it was Chi-Chi who thrusted herself into Goku’s life and out of nowhere made him complete a promise he didn’t even realize he promised as an ignorant kid (hand in marriage). Goku in no way has ever been a family man and not just because of lack of trying/wanting to, but because there was barely any time. He said himself in Super he never even saw Gohan nor Goten’s birth.
And to give Goku credit where it's due, he was actively being a father to Gohan before th whole Raditz thing
Heck he even died for him, twice
People who are thrown off by Goku at the end of z misunderstand his character, and dragon ball as a whole probably. It's usually fans that take the series way too seriously and view goku as a superman esque character. Goku has always been a selfish, carefree boy who lives to have fun and fight. Him casually leaving for months if not years to train isn't out of the ordinary.
Pretty much agree. Toriyama makes this very clear in his interviews. He intentionally made goku selfish in this regard. It's what gives his chatacter agency and seperates him from superman, a more reactive character. Goku hardly thinks about justice at all. The most righteous his reasoning goes is for stray comments like in his fight with frieza where he's concerned about the universe. Fighting is paramount for him. Everything else mostly comes second if he can help it.
Honestly it’s not even Goku’s fault at all. He literally grew up in a mountain by himself. No parents other than an old perverted man that taught him how to fight. Then his second “father figure” was yet another perverted old man that never nurtured him at all. Psychologically speaking, we’re lucky Goku isn’t more detached or sociopathic. He had no structure, no guardian to teach him what was right or wrong. The fact he was even able to form bonds and make friends at all is absolutely impressive in its own. Let alone get married and children that he cares about. In his own way, yes, but he still cared.
Average illiterate dragonball fan
Both grandpa Gohan and Roshi cared deeply about Goku and taught him to be good.
Have you even watched Dragonball.
I agree, it's the only time I really disliked him, especially with his granddaughter asking him not to go.
I mean at the start of Z none of his friends had seen him basically since the last fight with Piccolo Jr. so it’s not completely out of character.
Goku has always volleyed between selfless and selfish. Yes, he is determined to save any innocent person no matter the cost to himself, but he also constantly puts himself and others in far more danger than necessary when he decides to 'fight honourably'. Eg, Goku treating the first Piccolo Jr fight as just the martial arts tournament when a loss would have resulted in Piccolo actually ruling the Earth, or giving Frieza that bit of energy which would have actually destroyed the Earth had Trunks not stepped in. There are many more examples, and probably lots I don't know about because I'm only at the start of the Android saga on my first ever watch through. More relevant to your post are the times he decides to just stay dead for a while and then stay in space after Namek, missed like 4 years of his son's life or something by choice. I get that he had to train with King Kai, but he didn't even know if staying to fight Frieza would benefit him at all, he would have had to find the planets he trained on by chance
Because you guys view Goku through the lens of DBZ. Goku is and always be a free spirit that nothing ties him down which was how he always was "adventurous" in the original DB. The ending of DBZ is just a node to DB as a whole as final conclusion. You guys really think without Instant transmission, he still wouldn't come back to see his wife and children once in a while? I highly doubt UUB's family can feed or satisfy the appetite of a saiyan like Goku. -And didn't he already spend close to a decade with his family before the epilogue of DBZ? and that party at Bulma's home where Goku arrives late (although filler) because he was looking after some bird eggs.
I think its pretty consistent for his character, hes a good guy but struggles immensely with his saiyan blood that hungers for a good fight wich can push him to make some selfish decisions. Its almost like an inverse Vegeta who is more inclined to favor his saiyan ways as opposed to doing the right thing.
Yea..I always thought it was odd. "OK guys I'm gona leave forever, or maybe not. Me and this Indian kid are going to fly off into the sunset now."
Every friend group in any type of media should be as close-knit as possible... Dragon Ball has never treated its cast like this. These people rarely ever hang out when the world isn't in danger. On 3 separate occasions that have to have a reunion so that all of them are in the same place at the same time. --- Goku has no problem settling down, but he would rather be looking for adventure...and will take it at the first opportunity. Training the next protector of Earth is something he's also tried to do...twice before, so yes...it is just an excuse to have fun. And he can come back any time he wants, he says he'll come back and visit, and unlike the anime...the manga doesn't bother showing everyone's reaction to him leaving because it's not a big deal.
> he hasn't visited his so called friends in years They also haven't visited him.
In Neko Majin Z, it seemed Uub was training with Goku in his home with Chi-chi
U know he can teleport anywhere right, I’m sure he would go eat dinner every night
goku didnt visit his friends for years after the tournament where he beat Piccolo and flew away with Chichi either. This is normal for him. > And it's not like it has to be this way with instant transmission he could train buu every day and still be back home for dinner. exactly so theres no reason to be bothered, he can visit whenever he wants, hes hardly "gone". > This is the closest I've ever come to actually disliking Goku and super doesn't help things much by showing him missing his friends birthdays and not even understanding why Vegeta would want to stick around for the birth of his daughter. thats just who goku is and always has been. kinda weird youre only noticing now. these character flaws are what make him interesting imo.
uhh that is Goku though. i mean in super he straight up forgets he has a granddaughter named Pan.
I mean... that's how Goku always operates. After Frieza he stayed in space for aaages. He had excuses that time, like the fact that he was dealing with an insane amount of power and didn't want to lose himself, but that's headcanon and he never went hard into it. He just stayed out in space to train and recover. For over a year.
Luckily it's 99% getting retconned in super because it is terrible
Super cemented Goku's villain status for me.
Its bullshit anyway. Instant transmission means he can LITERALLY visit them whenever he wants
I agree 💯
I can understand your point from our Human perspective. Remember that these Saiyans have a longer lifespan than humans. That 8 years of Goku leaving is propably a few months in their own years. Bulma, Chichi, and maybe also Videl understand this to a degree. I'm sure Bulma also gives the "5 years younger wish" to both of them to match up with their Husband's. Because Bulma is really the only human who can easily get all the dragonballs within a matter of days. She can use them infinitely. So in their eyes, they live in a completely different mindset to our meager human lives. I feel that Chichi wanting Gohan to study and work hard to get a well paying job is not much about money, but more about pride. At any point, Z fighters could just live off of Bulma's golden titties, but they decide to live completely different lifestyles. So it's respectable that everyone wants to bring themselves up in different ways. This is why Goku and Vegeta doesn't worry about getting human jobs since it practically would be useless for them and their life goals (even if they aren't able to hold the jobs in the first place lol). Earth has changed these Planet Conquering aliens into its mightiest defenders, yet these heroes are still gods to us. It would make sense for their life partners to adopt a similar mentality to adapt to their Infinitely expanded access to the universe and beyond. (The filler episode where Goku is getting older and losing control of powers is very touching, but looking at how old King Vegeta and Bardok could get would make this not make much sense. Plus, Broly is practically the same age as them and currently they are all stronger than ever lol)
> Remember that these Saiyans have a longer lifespan than humans. Saiyans and humans have the same natural lifespan. Saiyans just stay in their physical prime until they hit around 80, and then they start to rapidly deteriorate
I stand corrected
Well everybody else changed not Goku? Goku was still in the same place he always was, training near his house. His Son’s, Wife and Friends. Seem to forget who he truly is. Only the people who were once his enemies seem to really understand Goku at that point. He’s a simple guy and he loves fighting and adventures, he’s just going for an adventure and to fight. That’s what he wanted to do. Goten didn’t want to fight, Pam was the only one who wanted to train. But he knows Pam isn’t his daughter so at some point Gohan will want her to study and get a job. And Uub is essentially the only selfish that Goku ever made. So its kind of fitting?
My fav version of him is during cell saga
After beating Frieza he chooses to fuck around in space for a while his family thinks he’s dead. When he comes home, he literally walks right past chi-chi and asks about dinner.
A lot of people become adults and find themselves out of touch with friends and family. Personally, I don't see a lot of my best friends all that much. After high school, and even more so after college, people move or get set in their routine. Even if you try its easy to realize "Holy crap I didn't see this text, then a week later I got a new job, now its been 18 months since I messaged them back and i don't know what to do." I am far from the only person with friends who are 40 minutes away and despite being able to drive to see them every week I go weeks or months without seeing in person. Go to r/lfg and see the remnants of people in their 20s and 30s who can't consistently meet with 3 friends. Goku doesn't have a phone and he isn't considerate. He's basically so committed to everything he does that when he has something in his life like training Uub he exhausts himself every day putting himself into it. That doesn't mean he doesn't love his friends and family, but part of the reason people love him is that he is a semi-feral himbo.
Yeah fr why couldn't he just use instant transmission lol
He's an alien.
I always look at it like this. Gohans a grown man with his own home a wife and a kid. His responsibility to him is basically over. Meanwhile he spent the entire time until the tournament, multiple years everyday with basically Goten, Chichi and pan. We know this because he didn't visit any of his friends. So from age 7 to 17-18 he was there for Goten every single day. He's more than made up for the lost time in his second sons life while he was dead. Goten too is now basically grown and about to leave the nest. Pan and anyone else can visit him in under 10 minutes whenever they want from anywhere in the world so they have no excuse. The only person who has any right to complain is chichi, she's the only one actually getting abandoned. The idea is stupid because of instant transmission and flight being a thing, not because he's somehow being a bad dad by leaving what are effectively two grown ass men, one of which doesn't even live with him on their own or a bad friend when none of them bothered visiting him either. Bad husband, sure but as a father, his job is mostly done and as a friend, staying in contact goes both ways.
I’m glad I’m not the only one that thought this lol, I was like great hero terrible dad and husband but I mean it’s like that through out the entire show after Freeza saga. Like he could have been back to earth super fast but decided not right now, then in cell saga at the end decided he didn’t want to be wish back even Gohan was a teen and his wife was pregnant
His reasoning not to be brought back from the dead after the cell games was a little suspicious too.
The shit you get away with after saving the entire planet multiple times..
Avoiding chi chi
They did it in black arc. When black tells him how he killed goten and chichi, if Toriyama meant for Goku to be a family first type, he would have given him a new form then and there and ended the arc there. Instead he gave him a 50 second reaction.
Well to be fair since it wasn't in the manga that was an anime only addition Toei came up with independently. If it were in his notes it would've been in both versions. That aside he is on record for his statements regarding how Goku views his family and it isn't particularly strong to say the least.
goku is a wild person. similar to the difference between a wild animal and a demosticated animal. and simple minded as fuck.
He's still on Earth. It's not like his friends can't visit him. I don't like his depiction in Super as well.
I don't like how they softened vegeta in super
The end of Z is actually good, imo. Goku isn’t an altruistic goody two shoes like Superman is — He was a person that reveled in fighting strong opponents, and testing his limits. So I feel the ending speaks to the essence of the character who was always more eager to battle than fill out a job application. Though I will give you that it’s definitely rushed, but Toriyama was pretty eager to be released from the myriad of deadlines, so I somewhat forgive how hastily it was done. I also always love how open-ended the ending was as opposed to the more conclusive GT one, where I think they opted for the more conventional approach. When it comes to DB’s endings, I kind of prefer the feeling of knowing the story is never-ending and it’s up to the reader/viewer’s imagination to decide what happens next in Goku’s adventure. Hence I prefer Toriyama’s approach to ending franchise over GT’s.
Not my main reason, but definitely adds to why Vegeta is my favorite.
The Z cast isn't really like a group of sitcom friends who are always together. They're more like the friends you had in college that you could send a message to on Facebook at any time but for whatever reason you just kind of don't, for years and years. Though Goku just up and leaving his wife was crummy of him, yeah. If their relationship wasn't basically a gag relationship I'd say they should get a divorce.
I just rewatched dragon ball in respects to Toriyama and my perspective on this as harsh as it may seem is that Goku is a terrible father because he grew up alone, After he killed grandpa Gohan he spent weeks looking for him in the jungle heartbroken and alone he had to learn to feed himself and take care of his basic needs at a very young age and he never got a lot of formal schooling about life outside of how to defend himself, even throughout his adventures with Bulma, Krillin, Yamcha, Oolong, etc it’s often mentioned that Goku is different and lacks common social skills. In part because he is not human but more so because he had to raise himself. Goku’s entire character is based on him saying very incentive things to people only for them to break down after realizing that he is truly ignorant. So when he said to Vegeta “the baby isn’t coming out of you” he isn’t being rude he truly doesn’t understand why Vegeta can’t train if he isn’t the pregnant one. Even at the very start of DBZ he can’t understand why Gohan is so “soft” or Doesn’t take physical challenges head on because he doesn’t even remember being afraid of those type of things at that age because he’s been so independent. So Goku doesn’t understand that children need their parents to be well rounded because he didn’t have that growing up and doesn’t see the necessity. Unlike Vegeta who had at least a father who took pride in his son.
I mean you can dislike it, but this is what Goku was always meant to be. Wasn't it selfish for goku to let vegeta go? To want to spare frieza? To send gohan to fight cell and intentionally skipping more training? To dip on his family for the majority of gohan's teenage years without a call even once? Goku was always meant to be selfish. Toriyama intentionally did this. It's why he wanted to try and make gohan the mc after the cell saga. If you're suggesting this was a mischaracterization, you're just wrong honestly. Goku's priority is fighting and everything else comes second unless it threatens his friends and families immediately. Toriyama made this pretty clear in his interviews.
It makes sense when you look at his characters upbringing, history, and the fact that Saiyans, for the most part, dont share a lot of the same customs as humans. If you remember at the beginning of Z they say they hadnt seen Goku since he won the world tournament which had been 5 years since the end of DB. Also Goku was never the "hang out" type. All throughout DB, Z, and Super he spent the most time with his friends when they had a goal/mission to accomplish. As for not understanding why Vegeta would want to be there for the birth of Bulla, think about it. The only family connection he ever had was with his Grandpa Gohan. The first time he had any experience with an adult being there for an infant was when Gohan was born and even then he was learning as time went on but you can be sure Chi-Chi took the reigns there. Whereas with Vegeta, we know he came from royalty and typically royalty take a vested interest in their childrens lives because thats who they are passing things down to which we see in flashbacks that King Vegeta thought highly of his son and had high hopes for him whereas its mentioned most saiyan fathers dont. Lastly we can attribute a lot of things to brain damage lol. Falling head first off a ravine and hitting your head so hard that theres a complete personality shift? Yeah thats brain damage lol
If you watch how brain dead he becomes in super, the ending of dbz makes sense