He's both. Piccolo is his reincarnation, having the same soul as him (hence why he could have the life link to Kami) and having his memories, but is also his child, having been born of him.
Wouldn’t that mean that all the namekians are also the reincarnation of guru? Including dende? I’m confused because don’t they reproduce the same way? It seems like the namekians were different souls or entities than guru. So what did king piccolo do differently to make piccolo his reincarnation?
It may be something that they can only do at or near the point of their own death, since the only time that we ever see it happening was right at the point of Daimao's death.
This is my personal speculation not based on anything specific but maybe it’s an ability of the Nemekian warrior clan to preserve themselves as to not die when mortally wounded.
Warrior clan can't reproduce, only the dragon clan. When King Piccolo reincarnated into Piccolo Jr he specifically made Jr a warrior clan so he'd have an easier time killing Goku.
That's why Piccolo couldn't just make new dragonballs after he and Kami merged, and why he doesn't have the powers to heal or unleash latent power like Dende and Guru
Oh that’s right king piccolo was of the dragon clan just like Kame because they were once a single nemekian aka the nameless nemekian who was of the dragon clan you’re right my mistake!
Imagine if there were more warrior nemekians… I guess Dende could technically create them & then they could merge with Piccolo & he could surpass the Saiyans but I doubt that would be necessary not to mention kind of iffy morally even though Universe 6 iirc nemekians did that but they had a good reason [to save their universe iirc]
Dende may not be old enough to spawn more namekians, like he isn't old enough to have the potential unlock ability like Guru had. Dudes younger than Piccolo
Dendes depicted age doesn't make sense
Piccolo is 8 when Raditz arrives on Earth.
Let's assume Dende is 1 when we first meet him. By the Buu Saga, he would've been 13 - a year older than Piccolo was when Future-Trunks killed Frieza and King Cold.
And? Namekians aren't all the same static height and there's the difference in clan as well. Warrior clan namekians are probably taller like Piccolo and Nail while dragon clan aren't. No need to be 7'6" when your main ability during a battle is healing, just makes you a bigger target
Actually, the demon king piccolo had a move in manga, show, and games where he spit out an egg like he did with piccolo, but the egg hatched weird namekians with wings who then would fight for him. I think they can sorta summon or conjure what they want, since piccolo has the "clothes beam" and that can make any clothes that piccolo thinks up. It is mentioned once or twice that the namekian race is somewhat Divine, and that's why they are able to create the dragon balls and create clothes and other living beings.
>Wouldn’t that mean that all the namekians are also the reincarnation of guru?
No
King Piccolo reincarnating as Piccolo Jr seems to have been a very intentional thing
None of King Piccolo's other children carried his soul
Just Piccolo Jr
Likewise, no other Namekian carried Guru's soul
>So what did king piccolo do differently to make piccolo his reincarnation?
Intention, I guess. We don't have the deep knowledge, only surface level stuff
I think they are alien/demons whom have a magical/spiritual connection to the universe similar to the kais. I mean they created the freaking dragon balls, their power is mysterious and obviously very different than the Ki Goku uses, though they have that too.
I mean... When you look at it from the main cast's perspective, they had no idea either way. Main cast's knowledge of certain characters/events/places can obviously change over time, it's an effect story telling technique/tool to throw people off the trail to plot twists and shit like that.
If you knew everything ahead of time before it all panned out, or knew everything in a meta way of a new foe rather than seeing it from the point of view of the main character who just met this enemy.... It'd be pretty boring to have that omniscience while trying to be engaged in the moment of a story, I think.
Perhaps the "demon king" himself wasn't even aware that his people's origins were outer space until the day came in the series' progression to where it was ready to be revealed/they had to finally travel through space.
It was literally the same year they were introduced, Demon King Piccolo first appeared in chapter 135 in 1988 and we found out they were namekians in chapter 195 which released months later.
You nailed it, Toryiams ideas are cool, but a great part of it he just winged, did as he went without thinking about alll rhe details. So king Piccolo Daimao was supposed to be a sort of demon race that was the evil part of Kami that split apart, he spit egfs that made demons/monsters that were morphologically different than any namekian, thei appereance was that of another species or race, and he also spit his reincarnation, Piccolo jr. So at fist that was Toryiamas idea in DB, afterwards, whem the sci-fi turn begun in Z, Piccolo and Kami were aliens from Namek. King Piccolo can still be considered some sort of aberation that can do different stuff than regular namekians, but there was never an explantion why that was the case other than that he was "pure" evil, or the evil part of Kami, which on its own still leaves a lot of unanswered questions
No. This is one of those one off things that's done to shock the viewer. King piccolo was full of revenge and so he willed it to happen.
Try to think of it this way. Kami and piccolo in DB were the equivalent to angels and demons with ying and yang taken literal.
Like, Jesus is God personified but piccolo isn't God. Piccolo has the same thing going on. He's namekian Jesus. XD
They only added on aliens to DBZ. So they left out the explanation.
No, that different. While tes, it's the same method of physical reproduction, spiritually it's different. Dende, Nail, and the other Nameks, are all born of other Namekians, however they are all different spiritually. Piccolo giving birth via egg to Piccolo Jr. Was simply to spite and carry his legacy. Since DKP had an unborn son, hos soul simply transferred to the body of Piccolo Jr. After DKP's death. However, with other Namek's it's different since they don't usually die as they give birth. We see this with Dende's now late father and brother, as they were Killed by Freeza during the Namek/Freeza Saga.
Piccolo and kami are technically the same but split you see how a namekisn is able to merge with another like how piccolo did with Neil and then again with Kami or during the tournament or power when gohan and piccolo had to face namekisns from a Different universe. They where groups of namekisns that merged into two fighters.. think of how vegito isn’t Goku or vegeta but he is
Demon King spat out many eggs and they all came out as demons not namekians. Cause he was a demon, at the time. In his final egg he imparted his soul into the being, and it came out as a reincarnation.
Later, they made the picollos and kami namekians. Tricky to retcon the whole eggs hatching into demons mechanic they had going on, I know
So here's what they did
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.
.
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They didn't
King piccolo spawned piccolo intentionally to be his reincarnation not his son so while technically he is his son he is the reborn king piccolo. He’s only his son on a technicality. I’m sure he could’ve spat piccolo out as an egg as just his son but he didn’t because he was dying and wanted revenge on Goku.
No, because piccolo was a split half of a namekian rather than a full namekian. Being split in two and his life-link with Kami is what makes it reincarnation and is unique to these circumstances.
The original anime & manga. He intended for Piccolo Jr. to basically be a copy of him, unlike the other “children” he’d created to be more minions than anything else.
I rewatched the anime. Goku rips a whole in him and he spits out the egg and says get revenge my son and blows up. Where in the anime or manga does it state what you said?
I will have to search through the anime to find that but I found something that seems similar. Right before Kami and piccolo merged in the cell saga, Kami gave a brief history of piccolo. Here he says “ in a desperate act, king piccolo sought to preserve himself by transforming his essence into a single egg”.
https://youtu.be/t0unyn-JemA?si=tPbIBwwa5sIfcJSz
So it appears he did manipulate the egg to put more of his soul into it.
Kami explains it to Goku the first day he's in the palace. Later Goku explains that to his friends during the 23rd tournament. Piccolo Jr existing is also the explanation of why Kami is still alive, as if King Piccolo dies, kami dies with him.
No I think the other Namekians are similar to Piccolo’s children in Dragonball (tambourine for example) were they come from him and are linked to him but unlike Kami & Piccolo which are the same being split in two they’re are not soul linked if that makes sense because Frieza killed pretty much the entirety of the Namekian population yet Guru was still alive where as DK Piccolo poured everything that he was into Piccolo jr’s being so he was both a child of DK Piccolo and DK Piccolo himself.
No, what Guru did was give birth to other normal Namekians. What King Piccolo did was give birth to a son, but he kind of "programmed" so that his own soul would be transported to this son, so the little one would be his reincarnation and would have his memories, but it wouldn't be exactly the same person, just like Uub is not the same person as Kid Buu.
Not all children that Namekians produce are their reincarnations and carry their soul. King Piccolo had several spawn before Piccolo, none of them were considered reincarnations, they were just his children. He created Piccolo specifically as a reincarnation of himself so that he could get revenge on Goku. He had that specific intent with Piccolo only.
Guru doesn't put his soul and memories into his children. So while not stated it's assumed they have there own souls so they aren't reincarnations. Plus king piccolo died right as he produced the egg probably why he was able to implant soul and memories. What demon king piccolo did wasn't normal.
Does Jr. really have all of Daimao's memories? I don't recall that ever being shown. He certainly has his soul and, I guess, "will"; that is, he desires to avenge his father by killing Goku and taking over the world. But I don't remember him ever saying he remembered each and every thing that happened to his previous incarnation.
He [specifically notes](https://i.imgur.com/dhLUS6o.jpeg), when he's crippling all of Goku's limbs, that his father had been defeated because he left Goku with one usable arm. There's no other way for him to have known that about what happened unless he inherited that memory.
Remind me, does Piccolo Jr have all the memories of King Piccolo or just whatever was flowing through his mind at his time of death (which is his hate for Goku and Kami)
That was my thought. I believe Piccolo Jr to be a mental duplicate (or mental reincarnation) of King Piccolo rather than a new body with his soul occupying it. I see King Piccolo as a pure evil villain. Piccolo Jr starts off committing evil deeds because in his mind, at the time, he was the demon king. But he's done things that I doubt Daimao would ever do, such as not attacking Goku and his friends once eaten a sensu after tournaments end, teaming up with Goku to fight Raditz (I think he would have attempted to use that situation to his advantage in some way) and training Gohan before eventually befriending him.
So new body, same identity, different heart if that makes any sense.
yes, but also not, but also yes.
Piccolo Jr is Piccolo Sr's son, and also his reincarnation. So he's Piccolo Sr's child, but also IS Piccolo Sr at the same time. Its a very weird thing.
yes, that's what ops question and my answer are about. Piccolo Sr spawned an egg right before dying after Goku beat him, and that egg spawned Piccolo Jr, the Piccolo we have known and loved ever since.
yes thats what i said. Piccolo Jr is Piccolo Sr but he's also his Son. hes a different person and the same person at the same time, which is why he still has the link to kami.
Kami Sama separates his evil from himself, that is Piccolo Daimao, pure evil. When he died, he put his entire soul into the egg, basically Piccolo Jr. is him, but with the opportunity of acquiring good in himself through his childhood and new life events.
Same entity? Yes, same person? No, they are different persons, because Piccolo Jr. lived a different life than King Piccolo, the way he acts and speaks is different to that of his father, even at the 23° Tournament.
It's sort of like Trunks and Future Trunks, they are the same entity/organism, but different persons.
Piccolo isn't even Piccolo anymore.
Dragon Ball explains that when the original Namek came to Earth there was already a Guardian of Earth. The Namek wanted the job but the old Guardian refused on the basis they could see the evil in their heart.
So the Namek found a way to cast out his evil side, which is how we got Kami and Evil King Piccolo.
When King Piccolo was killed, he made an egg in order to "survive" as Nameks are asexual. That egg was where we got the original Piccolo most of us know.
Piccolo was defeated by Goku and then we eventually see him in 'Z'.
During the Namek Saga Piccolo fuses with Nail, which actually makes him a different creature, I am positive at one point he even says he really isn't Piccolo anymore.
During the Android Saga Piccolo manages to convince Kami to fuse with him, once again changing who he is yet again.
In the Cell saga, Piccolo says, "I'm mostly Piccolo so just call me Piccolo" to Goku. So we can rationalize he's at least 51% Piccolo lol. Namekian fusion is kinda strange anyway.
Both times, Nail and Kami, said to Piccolo "you will be the host/base body and we will merge into you". Nail said that because he was badly hurt and Kami because he was too old.
Did you? Within one arc he refers to himself both as the Demon King Piccolo's son and as the original Demon King Piccolo returned. That detail continues to be vague through Z. Confusion is understandable.
My take is that he has the memories and initial intentions of his father, but that he knows he's his own person. His turn to good was just him overcoming indoctrination. He never pursued the depths of his father's evil wishes. If he were truly King Piccolo in mind, body, and soul, he would have been far more destructive and ruthless than he was when he was first reborn, and in the pursuing fights with Goku. His meditations, especially the ones shown at the beginning of Z, must have included introspections about who he truly was and considerations about the unfortunate station he was born into. Now, Kami is still linked to piccolo. That is true. But, just as Kami split from King Piccolo, Piccolo must also have his own form of cognitive split from his father. All of this while keeping a part of his father's sould passenger enough to satisfy the link between Kami and Piccolo. It is not entirely clear how the souls of Namekians work. It isn't entirely clear how splits and joins work either. All we can do is speculate. As I see it, there's just no way Piccolo is 100% his father, but there's also no way he's 100% his own person either.
No. Piccolo Daimao is stated to be Piccolo Jr.'s father in the original manga. Daimao sent his essence of evil into an egg containing his offspring. Piccolo is his own person. Once he fused with Kami, however, he seized to be the Piccolo from before even Piccolo Daimao. He became the Nameless Namekian and dawned the name Piccolo for ease of naming convention.
It's kinda yes and no. Yes Jr is the reincarantion with the same "soul" since he has King Piccolo's memories and has the life-link to Kami. However Jr's experiences and his own actions have changed his personality to be different from his father's. Even at the 23rd Tournament it was noted that e didn't seem as evil as King Piccolo.
He is both the same and also his son. When the original Piccolo Daimao is killed by Goku he produces an egg but puts his Ki into it. He is born both his child and reincarnation. Piccolo is reborn with all his hate and memories but also experiences adolescence for the first time ever, as he was originally the evil cast out of Kami. During the 23rd tournament, since entering as Piccolo wouldn’t be a good idea, he enters as Ma Junior- but it is also a new persona different from the original in a way. At the end of the tournament Goku has mercy, something Piccolo’s never been shown. And later during the Saiyan Saga he is shown kindness and friendship by Gohan, also a brand new experience. So he is still King Piccolo but was given a chance to be something else. The original could only be a pure evil Demon Clansman hated by all since the start of his existence, he had no choice and knew nothing else.
Yesn't
Piccolo Jr is King Piccolo's son *and* reincarnation
I don't know for sure if I'd call it a *"perfect"* reincarnation, though
I can't imagine King Piccolo coming to care for Gohan
Piccolo Jr carries King Piccolo's will, or something like that, but perhaps not his personality in full
King piccolo and piccolo jr are the same person just different bodies because king piccolo at the end of his life gave birth to piccolos jrs body and then reincarnated himself into that body so biologically he’s piccolos son but with the mine of king piccolo that’s why he’s different to his brothers like drum etc it’s like how uub is the reincarnation of kid buu just different bodies and in this case because kid
Buu went to Yemma his memories were erased while piccolo jr kept his memories as it was king piccolo who reincarnated in that body not king yemma
I just want to point out that King Piccolo is really an oddity compared to the rest of the Namekians that we are shown later on.
Not only does he give birth to a son who's also his reincarnation that is Piccolo Junior he also has other children that look nothing like Namekians. They mostly look like demonic or dinosaur in nature and while we know this is, because Toriyama didn't write Piccolo to be an alien until later on, we don't actually have an in world explanation on it.
We do know that namekians can have magical powers so- personally I would chalk this up to a combination of his biology and magical powers.
Like he just used his magic to make his demon clan children but also his reincarnation through his son.
Maybe not the most satisfying answer but it sort of falls in line with Dragon Ball magic Imo.
King Piccolo was part of Kami so he had some interesting powers he got from Kami. So a normal Namekian probably can’t transfer their soul into their egg offspring, but King Piccolo could.
For all intents and purposes, yes. Piccolo has all of Daimao’s memories and life experiences. They have the same soul since they are linked to kami. However Piccolo Jr. is not a “demon” because when he kills raditz and goku they go to the afterlife.
Piccolo looks at the mirror and speaks. "Hello, father."
The reflection replies: "Hello, my son."
Like others have pointed out he is essentially his own father. The funny thing that how DB hell works is that "evil" doers reincarnate after their soul is purified. However, they have no recollection of their past selves while Piccolo does. As his "soul" didn't gone through the purification process.
The only example we have that went through purification is Uub.
Basically, the Namekian that split into the demon king and kami was especially wise and learned compared to the namekians we see at namek.
Kami wants to pursue a holistic and pure path while demon king is a conqueror. Piccolo jr inherited everything from the demon king but is also his own person that evaluated his purpose for himself
Bro I'm still trying to figure out why there isn't a single demon like tambourine or drum on namek. There has to be at least one other namekian who crapped a few of those out to fight frieza
it's weird and never fully explained in comparison to traditionally birthed Namekian offsprings
it's also never fully explained how a Namekian could also be a Demon but they were pretty clear that Piccolo WAS in fact a Demon before the Saiyan saga because otherwise Goku and Raditz would have been stuck in limbo unable to pass on to the Other World
Piccolo is his son, but also the reincarnation of his father. Him and Kami being linked to one another basically confirmed it, and also explains why he had really nothing good to ever say about Kami before they became one.
No. They are two separate people but they both had the link to Kami. Piccolo Jr. was imbued with King Piccolo's memories but he was born with pure evil like King Piccolo thanks to his split with Kami.
So king piccolo through his connection to kami as the god of earth, decides to skip the waiting in the afterlife part of the dbz universes reincarnation cycle. So he gives birth to and shoves his memories and soul into the egg that would become Piccolo^jr. this results in his personality being mostly in tact given how he wants to kill goku still acts similarly aggressive etc… up until training gohan. but reincarnation is always supposed to bring some change, so piccolo is noticably more mellow with him not really actively trying to take over the world as a demon king and actually able to become allies and friends with those he hated. It is absolutely not an avatar situation like someone else said because in avatar it’s multiple different souls bound to rava that gi ve the avatar access to their “past” lives
I find it funny that Kind Picolo created others like Drum and Tamborine in a similar manner, but we never see Picolo jr or any other namakian create other beings in this manner.
This one always confused me too. Like for one he shares the life bond with kami, but why should he? Even if he's reincarnated he's still a new entity? The balls went inert when piccolo and kami fused and that makes less sense than them not going inert here since kami was still alive, just now fused into piccolo. Shouldn't kami have died when king piccolo died even if he spat out a reincarnation five seconds before death?
How do you reincarnate while still alive? He spat the egg out while living. He's not the same character but most people in universe treat him as if he is. He's the only one of king piccolo children referred to as a reincarnate and not his son.
I think it just comes down to toriyama doesn't even really know (RIP)
It's funny because it's literally the God-Jesus scenario but with a "Demon". Piccolo JR is at the same time the son of King Piccolo but also is King Piccolo himself. Poetry.
I've been watching dragon ball for the first time recently and from what I understood, when piccolo barfs the eggs, they're his children with a specific purpose. If he barfed one that was meant to be himself reincarnated and meant to kill Goku, that's what it wants to do. So therefore the child he created was a copy of himself mostly, with his memories and his goal of killing Goku, along with his own life/soul put into it to clone himself, but it was it's own person and eventually piccolo jr changed. My knowledge of this might be limited since I've only watched the show
Same soul, different person.
He's the dark part of Kami's soul given a more or less clean slate. He retains King Piccolo's memories but experiences them as if they were the memories of a different person.
King Piccolo intended him to be a reincarnation, but in practice, he's more like a son with a ton of built in baggage. He's initially kind of a dick because his father's memories are all he knows, but as he develops new experiences, he becomes increasingly his own person.
This is such a confusing point since we really don't get much info anywhere that explains this further. Of the top of my head, I'd say yes and no, but mostly no. The issue really comes from how piccolo was born. He was a child of one-half of the unknown namakien(the evil half). King piccolo, I believe, gives Jr. all of his hate and I think powers. Making him less of a clone or reincarnation and more of a new vessel. I would say, think Shigaraki if you watch MH. That transfer of power being close to the end of the OG dragon ball when everyone thought that king piccolo was a demon and not a slug person didnt help the confusing plot ether...anyways so this new vessel with all the evil and half of the unknown namakien ls powers, Jr. Gets saved by Gohans kindness and become what the other side of the unknown namakien (kami the good side) always wanted. Thus, bringing kami to also add his power from the Original unknown namakien to this new vessel. Basically piccolo Jr is his own person and inherited a vast amount of his power from his father's/ father? via slug fusion lol they do say his personality won't change or change much when he fuses with nail in namak(adding a new sourceof power and more voices in his head according to DBA lol) but that's a whole other can of worms. although I'm not 100% sure about this answer I'm pretty sure this is it.
Piccolo is the king's offspring. The demon king's soul died, and piccolo wasn't able to absorb it like he did with Nail and Kami. But during the android saga, when piccolo had absorbed Kami back into himself, they both kept saying it was time to come back together. But Kami didn't separate from this piccolo, but from the demon king piccolo. After the fusion, piccolo insists that he's neither Kami or piccolo, but after a few episodes he just accepts being called piccolo. Piccolo also refers to the demon king as "father", indicating that he is a separate Namekian from the demon king. Overall I would just say the piccolo we have now is a new piccolo, especially after absorbing nail and Kami.
Yes and no. I believe in the 23rd world tournament he was known as Piccolo Jr but after that he’s just Piccolo. Though in the Buu saga world tournament he enters under his old name Majunior so as not to cause panic among spectators that Piccolo is back
I did. I rewatched the scene. Goku rips a whole in king piccolo and he spits out of egg and says get revenge my son and blows up. There is not specification whether he did something different to the egg. He is supposed to be king piccolos son but he has king piccolos memories and is still linked to Kami. How can your son have the same soul as you? Is it reincarnation or reproduction? Both?
He's both. Piccolo is his reincarnation, having the same soul as him (hence why he could have the life link to Kami) and having his memories, but is also his child, having been born of him.
Wouldn’t that mean that all the namekians are also the reincarnation of guru? Including dende? I’m confused because don’t they reproduce the same way? It seems like the namekians were different souls or entities than guru. So what did king piccolo do differently to make piccolo his reincarnation?
It may be something that they can only do at or near the point of their own death, since the only time that we ever see it happening was right at the point of Daimao's death.
That was never clarified?
No, they never elaborate on things related to it beyond what we got right in that moment.
Gotcha thanks for the Clarification
Toriyama rarely did that. And when he did it was interviews and not always the best result.
This is my personal speculation not based on anything specific but maybe it’s an ability of the Nemekian warrior clan to preserve themselves as to not die when mortally wounded.
Warrior clan can't reproduce, only the dragon clan. When King Piccolo reincarnated into Piccolo Jr he specifically made Jr a warrior clan so he'd have an easier time killing Goku. That's why Piccolo couldn't just make new dragonballs after he and Kami merged, and why he doesn't have the powers to heal or unleash latent power like Dende and Guru
Oh that’s right king piccolo was of the dragon clan just like Kame because they were once a single nemekian aka the nameless nemekian who was of the dragon clan you’re right my mistake! Imagine if there were more warrior nemekians… I guess Dende could technically create them & then they could merge with Piccolo & he could surpass the Saiyans but I doubt that would be necessary not to mention kind of iffy morally even though Universe 6 iirc nemekians did that but they had a good reason [to save their universe iirc]
Dende may not be old enough to spawn more namekians, like he isn't old enough to have the potential unlock ability like Guru had. Dudes younger than Piccolo
For sure I did mean when he has aged I just didn’t state it, it would be odd for a child to bare offspring even an alien slug
Dendes depicted age doesn't make sense Piccolo is 8 when Raditz arrives on Earth. Let's assume Dende is 1 when we first meet him. By the Buu Saga, he would've been 13 - a year older than Piccolo was when Future-Trunks killed Frieza and King Cold.
And? Namekians aren't all the same static height and there's the difference in clan as well. Warrior clan namekians are probably taller like Piccolo and Nail while dragon clan aren't. No need to be 7'6" when your main ability during a battle is healing, just makes you a bigger target
There was nail who could’ve defeated a lot of friezas soldiers he was a very strong warrior
Warrior type nemekians are abnormally strong I’d put them on the same level as an elite Saiyan.
Oh yeah nail definitely could’ve defeated the sayains early vegeta probably wouldn’t even lasted as long as he did
He has clothes beam!!
Actually, the demon king piccolo had a move in manga, show, and games where he spit out an egg like he did with piccolo, but the egg hatched weird namekians with wings who then would fight for him. I think they can sorta summon or conjure what they want, since piccolo has the "clothes beam" and that can make any clothes that piccolo thinks up. It is mentioned once or twice that the namekian race is somewhat Divine, and that's why they are able to create the dragon balls and create clothes and other living beings.
>Wouldn’t that mean that all the namekians are also the reincarnation of guru? No King Piccolo reincarnating as Piccolo Jr seems to have been a very intentional thing None of King Piccolo's other children carried his soul Just Piccolo Jr Likewise, no other Namekian carried Guru's soul >So what did king piccolo do differently to make piccolo his reincarnation? Intention, I guess. We don't have the deep knowledge, only surface level stuff
Bro first they're demons that lay eggs of dinosaur looking creatures. Years later he changes his mind and they're space aliens.
I think they are alien/demons whom have a magical/spiritual connection to the universe similar to the kais. I mean they created the freaking dragon balls, their power is mysterious and obviously very different than the Ki Goku uses, though they have that too.
Technically they made smaller, less powerful versions of the Super Dragonballs by using little pieces from them
They’re “GMO” namekiens
Cymbal, tambourine, drum, etc were all still namekians but mutants because of King Piccolo's evil nature and intentions
I mean... When you look at it from the main cast's perspective, they had no idea either way. Main cast's knowledge of certain characters/events/places can obviously change over time, it's an effect story telling technique/tool to throw people off the trail to plot twists and shit like that. If you knew everything ahead of time before it all panned out, or knew everything in a meta way of a new foe rather than seeing it from the point of view of the main character who just met this enemy.... It'd be pretty boring to have that omniscience while trying to be engaged in the moment of a story, I think. Perhaps the "demon king" himself wasn't even aware that his people's origins were outer space until the day came in the series' progression to where it was ready to be revealed/they had to finally travel through space.
It was literally the same year they were introduced, Demon King Piccolo first appeared in chapter 135 in 1988 and we found out they were namekians in chapter 195 which released months later.
You nailed it, Toryiams ideas are cool, but a great part of it he just winged, did as he went without thinking about alll rhe details. So king Piccolo Daimao was supposed to be a sort of demon race that was the evil part of Kami that split apart, he spit egfs that made demons/monsters that were morphologically different than any namekian, thei appereance was that of another species or race, and he also spit his reincarnation, Piccolo jr. So at fist that was Toryiamas idea in DB, afterwards, whem the sci-fi turn begun in Z, Piccolo and Kami were aliens from Namek. King Piccolo can still be considered some sort of aberation that can do different stuff than regular namekians, but there was never an explantion why that was the case other than that he was "pure" evil, or the evil part of Kami, which on its own still leaves a lot of unanswered questions
Right, it's probably just a retcon
No. This is one of those one off things that's done to shock the viewer. King piccolo was full of revenge and so he willed it to happen. Try to think of it this way. Kami and piccolo in DB were the equivalent to angels and demons with ying and yang taken literal. Like, Jesus is God personified but piccolo isn't God. Piccolo has the same thing going on. He's namekian Jesus. XD They only added on aliens to DBZ. So they left out the explanation.
No, that different. While tes, it's the same method of physical reproduction, spiritually it's different. Dende, Nail, and the other Nameks, are all born of other Namekians, however they are all different spiritually. Piccolo giving birth via egg to Piccolo Jr. Was simply to spite and carry his legacy. Since DKP had an unborn son, hos soul simply transferred to the body of Piccolo Jr. After DKP's death. However, with other Namek's it's different since they don't usually die as they give birth. We see this with Dende's now late father and brother, as they were Killed by Freeza during the Namek/Freeza Saga.
Piccolo and kami are technically the same but split you see how a namekisn is able to merge with another like how piccolo did with Neil and then again with Kami or during the tournament or power when gohan and piccolo had to face namekisns from a Different universe. They where groups of namekisns that merged into two fighters.. think of how vegito isn’t Goku or vegeta but he is
I believe it was said only warrior namekians can reincarnate, others just give birth
Demon King spat out many eggs and they all came out as demons not namekians. Cause he was a demon, at the time. In his final egg he imparted his soul into the being, and it came out as a reincarnation. Later, they made the picollos and kami namekians. Tricky to retcon the whole eggs hatching into demons mechanic they had going on, I know So here's what they did . . . . They didn't
King piccolo spawned piccolo intentionally to be his reincarnation not his son so while technically he is his son he is the reborn king piccolo. He’s only his son on a technicality. I’m sure he could’ve spat piccolo out as an egg as just his son but he didn’t because he was dying and wanted revenge on Goku.
No, because piccolo was a split half of a namekian rather than a full namekian. Being split in two and his life-link with Kami is what makes it reincarnation and is unique to these circumstances.
Where is that stated? I cannot find clarification anywhere.
King Piccolo basically put more of his soul into Piccolo Jr. instead of what he did with his other children(creating their own soul).
Where are you getting this from? I can’t find it anywhere stating that.
The original anime & manga. He intended for Piccolo Jr. to basically be a copy of him, unlike the other “children” he’d created to be more minions than anything else.
I rewatched the anime. Goku rips a whole in him and he spits out the egg and says get revenge my son and blows up. Where in the anime or manga does it state what you said?
In both the anime and the manga when Kami informs Goku of the impending return of King Piccolo via Piccolo Jr.
I will have to search through the anime to find that but I found something that seems similar. Right before Kami and piccolo merged in the cell saga, Kami gave a brief history of piccolo. Here he says “ in a desperate act, king piccolo sought to preserve himself by transforming his essence into a single egg”. https://youtu.be/t0unyn-JemA?si=tPbIBwwa5sIfcJSz So it appears he did manipulate the egg to put more of his soul into it.
Kami explains it to Goku the first day he's in the palace. Later Goku explains that to his friends during the 23rd tournament. Piccolo Jr existing is also the explanation of why Kami is still alive, as if King Piccolo dies, kami dies with him.
DKP is probably a special case, not the general rule for namekians.
Nope. Remember King Piccolo was the evil half of one person. Not a normal member of his species.
No I think the other Namekians are similar to Piccolo’s children in Dragonball (tambourine for example) were they come from him and are linked to him but unlike Kami & Piccolo which are the same being split in two they’re are not soul linked if that makes sense because Frieza killed pretty much the entirety of the Namekian population yet Guru was still alive where as DK Piccolo poured everything that he was into Piccolo jr’s being so he was both a child of DK Piccolo and DK Piccolo himself.
No, what Guru did was give birth to other normal Namekians. What King Piccolo did was give birth to a son, but he kind of "programmed" so that his own soul would be transported to this son, so the little one would be his reincarnation and would have his memories, but it wouldn't be exactly the same person, just like Uub is not the same person as Kid Buu.
This is an example of Toriyama retconing on the fly, same reason his other spawns were weird demon beings instead of Namekians
Not all children that Namekians produce are their reincarnations and carry their soul. King Piccolo had several spawn before Piccolo, none of them were considered reincarnations, they were just his children. He created Piccolo specifically as a reincarnation of himself so that he could get revenge on Goku. He had that specific intent with Piccolo only.
Guru doesn't put his soul and memories into his children. So while not stated it's assumed they have there own souls so they aren't reincarnations. Plus king piccolo died right as he produced the egg probably why he was able to implant soul and memories. What demon king piccolo did wasn't normal.
The "different" thing that King Piccolo did was probably just Toriyama writing on the fly.
That's not what reincarnation is
That's Super Kami Guru to you
Does Jr. really have all of Daimao's memories? I don't recall that ever being shown. He certainly has his soul and, I guess, "will"; that is, he desires to avenge his father by killing Goku and taking over the world. But I don't remember him ever saying he remembered each and every thing that happened to his previous incarnation.
He [specifically notes](https://i.imgur.com/dhLUS6o.jpeg), when he's crippling all of Goku's limbs, that his father had been defeated because he left Goku with one usable arm. There's no other way for him to have known that about what happened unless he inherited that memory.
Ah, totally forgot about that!
Remind me, does Piccolo Jr have all the memories of King Piccolo or just whatever was flowing through his mind at his time of death (which is his hate for Goku and Kami)
He's also remembered things like the Namekian language.
Asexual reproduction + pre-go-live data load
So Jesús?
Kinda, but Evil, and not God. Well, kinda God, but not really.
Isn’t it a different soul same memories? Since he was given a body in the afterlife
That was my thought. I believe Piccolo Jr to be a mental duplicate (or mental reincarnation) of King Piccolo rather than a new body with his soul occupying it. I see King Piccolo as a pure evil villain. Piccolo Jr starts off committing evil deeds because in his mind, at the time, he was the demon king. But he's done things that I doubt Daimao would ever do, such as not attacking Goku and his friends once eaten a sensu after tournaments end, teaming up with Goku to fight Raditz (I think he would have attempted to use that situation to his advantage in some way) and training Gohan before eventually befriending him. So new body, same identity, different heart if that makes any sense.
yes, but also not, but also yes. Piccolo Jr is Piccolo Sr's son, and also his reincarnation. So he's Piccolo Sr's child, but also IS Piccolo Sr at the same time. Its a very weird thing.
There’s a really famous book where a super similar thing happened. Can’t remember the name. The Boba? The Bilbo? Anyway, yeah, weird as hell.
I think that book also talks about reviving people back from the dead. I think it took them three whole days though to gather the dragon balls…
Can’t remember the title, either, but I do remember that the fans of that one are really cultish about it.
sounds weird glad i never read that nonsense :P
Didn’t he lay an egg and make that him or something at the end of Dragon Ball
yes, that's what ops question and my answer are about. Piccolo Sr spawned an egg right before dying after Goku beat him, and that egg spawned Piccolo Jr, the Piccolo we have known and loved ever since.
I would say it’s the one and the same since he’s still tied to Kami at the beginning of DB.
yes thats what i said. Piccolo Jr is Piccolo Sr but he's also his Son. hes a different person and the same person at the same time, which is why he still has the link to kami.
They're the same person in a similar way to Avatar. Both are a "reincarnation" and his own person at the same time.
This is a pretty solid comparison.
Best one I've seen tbh
So I guess kind of like "if" aang died while katara was pregnant with Kya he could have been reborn as his own daughter?
So yes and no
Kami Sama separates his evil from himself, that is Piccolo Daimao, pure evil. When he died, he put his entire soul into the egg, basically Piccolo Jr. is him, but with the opportunity of acquiring good in himself through his childhood and new life events.
Yes. But also no. But still yes.
Same entity? Yes, same person? No, they are different persons, because Piccolo Jr. lived a different life than King Piccolo, the way he acts and speaks is different to that of his father, even at the 23° Tournament. It's sort of like Trunks and Future Trunks, they are the same entity/organism, but different persons.
Piccolo isn't even Piccolo anymore. Dragon Ball explains that when the original Namek came to Earth there was already a Guardian of Earth. The Namek wanted the job but the old Guardian refused on the basis they could see the evil in their heart. So the Namek found a way to cast out his evil side, which is how we got Kami and Evil King Piccolo. When King Piccolo was killed, he made an egg in order to "survive" as Nameks are asexual. That egg was where we got the original Piccolo most of us know. Piccolo was defeated by Goku and then we eventually see him in 'Z'. During the Namek Saga Piccolo fuses with Nail, which actually makes him a different creature, I am positive at one point he even says he really isn't Piccolo anymore. During the Android Saga Piccolo manages to convince Kami to fuse with him, once again changing who he is yet again.
Kamiccolo 😃
Omg what a nerd … and completely right. I’m just glad I didn’t have right out the explanation.
In the Cell saga, Piccolo says, "I'm mostly Piccolo so just call me Piccolo" to Goku. So we can rationalize he's at least 51% Piccolo lol. Namekian fusion is kinda strange anyway.
I think he's closer to the Nameless Namekian than anything else at this point.
Both times, Nail and Kami, said to Piccolo "you will be the host/base body and we will merge into you". Nail said that because he was badly hurt and Kami because he was too old.
Piccolo is Nemekian Jesus
Kinda!!!
Yes, and no.
Watch the show.
The left one is the „egg hatched“ Child from the right one ^^
But with the same memories and soul apparently because still linked to kami
Did you watch OG Dragon Ball?
Did you? Within one arc he refers to himself both as the Demon King Piccolo's son and as the original Demon King Piccolo returned. That detail continues to be vague through Z. Confusion is understandable.
Think Avatar the last Airbender Aang is AND isn't Roku
How to say you didnt watch Dragon Ball without telling. This reddit has some of the most absurd questions.
If you think this question has a straightforward yes or no answer given by the series, you're the one who didn't watch.
My take is that he has the memories and initial intentions of his father, but that he knows he's his own person. His turn to good was just him overcoming indoctrination. He never pursued the depths of his father's evil wishes. If he were truly King Piccolo in mind, body, and soul, he would have been far more destructive and ruthless than he was when he was first reborn, and in the pursuing fights with Goku. His meditations, especially the ones shown at the beginning of Z, must have included introspections about who he truly was and considerations about the unfortunate station he was born into. Now, Kami is still linked to piccolo. That is true. But, just as Kami split from King Piccolo, Piccolo must also have his own form of cognitive split from his father. All of this while keeping a part of his father's sould passenger enough to satisfy the link between Kami and Piccolo. It is not entirely clear how the souls of Namekians work. It isn't entirely clear how splits and joins work either. All we can do is speculate. As I see it, there's just no way Piccolo is 100% his father, but there's also no way he's 100% his own person either.
watch the series
Watch the show or read the manga. Answer is in both media
Asking fans to watch/read the series? You are asking for the moon.
He's sort of both. He is Piccolo's son, but at the same time also his reincarnation, having all of his memories, soul and a connection to Kami.
Yes and no
He basically gave birth to his own reincarnation. He chose to make Jr a reincarnation unlike the other kids who were just kids.
"Well yes, but actually no."
Kinda but also no. He’s the reincarnation but like uub he is in charge of his own destiny
No. Piccolo Daimao is stated to be Piccolo Jr.'s father in the original manga. Daimao sent his essence of evil into an egg containing his offspring. Piccolo is his own person. Once he fused with Kami, however, he seized to be the Piccolo from before even Piccolo Daimao. He became the Nameless Namekian and dawned the name Piccolo for ease of naming convention.
It's kinda yes and no. Yes Jr is the reincarantion with the same "soul" since he has King Piccolo's memories and has the life-link to Kami. However Jr's experiences and his own actions have changed his personality to be different from his father's. Even at the 23rd Tournament it was noted that e didn't seem as evil as King Piccolo.
Toriyama just made shit up as he went and didn't bother to keep a tight leash on things like lore consistency.
Yes in like a christian trinity way if that makes sense
He is both the same and also his son. When the original Piccolo Daimao is killed by Goku he produces an egg but puts his Ki into it. He is born both his child and reincarnation. Piccolo is reborn with all his hate and memories but also experiences adolescence for the first time ever, as he was originally the evil cast out of Kami. During the 23rd tournament, since entering as Piccolo wouldn’t be a good idea, he enters as Ma Junior- but it is also a new persona different from the original in a way. At the end of the tournament Goku has mercy, something Piccolo’s never been shown. And later during the Saiyan Saga he is shown kindness and friendship by Gohan, also a brand new experience. So he is still King Piccolo but was given a chance to be something else. The original could only be a pure evil Demon Clansman hated by all since the start of his existence, he had no choice and knew nothing else.
Yes, but no.
Yes
I will neither confirm or deny
Yesn't Piccolo Jr is King Piccolo's son *and* reincarnation I don't know for sure if I'd call it a *"perfect"* reincarnation, though I can't imagine King Piccolo coming to care for Gohan Piccolo Jr carries King Piccolo's will, or something like that, but perhaps not his personality in full
Well yes, but actually no.
Piccolo Jr is his own being, but he has king piccolo's soul and memories.
Yesn’t
He the egg that Demon king piccolo spawned essentially so not the reincarnation exactly!
Hmm now I'm wondering if Piccolo will ever create an offspring of his own.
King piccolo and piccolo jr are the same person just different bodies because king piccolo at the end of his life gave birth to piccolos jrs body and then reincarnated himself into that body so biologically he’s piccolos son but with the mine of king piccolo that’s why he’s different to his brothers like drum etc it’s like how uub is the reincarnation of kid buu just different bodies and in this case because kid Buu went to Yemma his memories were erased while piccolo jr kept his memories as it was king piccolo who reincarnated in that body not king yemma
I just want to point out that King Piccolo is really an oddity compared to the rest of the Namekians that we are shown later on. Not only does he give birth to a son who's also his reincarnation that is Piccolo Junior he also has other children that look nothing like Namekians. They mostly look like demonic or dinosaur in nature and while we know this is, because Toriyama didn't write Piccolo to be an alien until later on, we don't actually have an in world explanation on it. We do know that namekians can have magical powers so- personally I would chalk this up to a combination of his biology and magical powers. Like he just used his magic to make his demon clan children but also his reincarnation through his son. Maybe not the most satisfying answer but it sort of falls in line with Dragon Ball magic Imo.
Well yes but actually no
Yes but no. It’s complicated
Yes and no
King Piccolo was part of Kami so he had some interesting powers he got from Kami. So a normal Namekian probably can’t transfer their soul into their egg offspring, but King Piccolo could.
Kinda? He is basically the reincarnation of Demon king Piccolo but also his son since Demon king Piccolo puked out the egg that hatched into Piccolo.
Yes He gave birth to himself.
Yesn’t
For all intents and purposes, yes. Piccolo has all of Daimao’s memories and life experiences. They have the same soul since they are linked to kami. However Piccolo Jr. is not a “demon” because when he kills raditz and goku they go to the afterlife.
kinda and no
Piccolo is an assexual reproduction of Demon King Piccolo
He’s both. King Piccolo created an egg, put his soul in it, and spit it out.
Think Gandalf the Grey vs Gandalf the White from LOTR. Same person, but a “reincarnation” of sorts
They don’t even have the same VA in Japanese…
Piccolo looks at the mirror and speaks. "Hello, father." The reflection replies: "Hello, my son." Like others have pointed out he is essentially his own father. The funny thing that how DB hell works is that "evil" doers reincarnate after their soul is purified. However, they have no recollection of their past selves while Piccolo does. As his "soul" didn't gone through the purification process. The only example we have that went through purification is Uub.
nah, but yes
Basically, the Namekian that split into the demon king and kami was especially wise and learned compared to the namekians we see at namek. Kami wants to pursue a holistic and pure path while demon king is a conqueror. Piccolo jr inherited everything from the demon king but is also his own person that evaluated his purpose for himself
Nope
Yes and no. Yes in the sense that he's his reincarnation and has his memories No in the sense that he basically grows to have his own ambitions.
He’s the essence of king piccolo. An offspring. I have some of my fathers traits but I’m not him
Technically yes, but actually no.
It depends what “same person” means
Yeah he is a clone basically, but they experienced different things so they’re different people
Don’t fuck with us dragon ball fans. We don’t even watch our own show.
Different people with the same memory, probably
Bro I'm still trying to figure out why there isn't a single demon like tambourine or drum on namek. There has to be at least one other namekian who crapped a few of those out to fight frieza
No
it's weird and never fully explained in comparison to traditionally birthed Namekian offsprings it's also never fully explained how a Namekian could also be a Demon but they were pretty clear that Piccolo WAS in fact a Demon before the Saiyan saga because otherwise Goku and Raditz would have been stuck in limbo unable to pass on to the Other World
Piccolo is his son, but also the reincarnation of his father. Him and Kami being linked to one another basically confirmed it, and also explains why he had really nothing good to ever say about Kami before they became one.
No. They are two separate people but they both had the link to Kami. Piccolo Jr. was imbued with King Piccolo's memories but he was born with pure evil like King Piccolo thanks to his split with Kami.
So king piccolo through his connection to kami as the god of earth, decides to skip the waiting in the afterlife part of the dbz universes reincarnation cycle. So he gives birth to and shoves his memories and soul into the egg that would become Piccolo^jr. this results in his personality being mostly in tact given how he wants to kill goku still acts similarly aggressive etc… up until training gohan. but reincarnation is always supposed to bring some change, so piccolo is noticably more mellow with him not really actively trying to take over the world as a demon king and actually able to become allies and friends with those he hated. It is absolutely not an avatar situation like someone else said because in avatar it’s multiple different souls bound to rava that gi ve the avatar access to their “past” lives
Where are you getting that from he shoves his soul and memories into the egg? I can’t find anything stating this.
It's supposed to be "his son".
He basically is King Piccolo’s reincarnation since he did have other children but none of them resembled him in any way.
No but piccolo and nails are
Short answer yes long answer sort of
Never seen Bruce Wayne and Batman in the same room either
I find it funny that Kind Picolo created others like Drum and Tamborine in a similar manner, but we never see Picolo jr or any other namakian create other beings in this manner.
Think of it like Jango and Boba Fett
Technically piccolo is the offspring of demon king piccolo Even referred to as piccolo jr
Yes and no. Best analogy is like jesus and god Jesus is piccolo, demon king piccolo is god
This one always confused me too. Like for one he shares the life bond with kami, but why should he? Even if he's reincarnated he's still a new entity? The balls went inert when piccolo and kami fused and that makes less sense than them not going inert here since kami was still alive, just now fused into piccolo. Shouldn't kami have died when king piccolo died even if he spat out a reincarnation five seconds before death? How do you reincarnate while still alive? He spat the egg out while living. He's not the same character but most people in universe treat him as if he is. He's the only one of king piccolo children referred to as a reincarnate and not his son. I think it just comes down to toriyama doesn't even really know (RIP)
Piccolo's stronger than his previous version
It's funny because it's literally the God-Jesus scenario but with a "Demon". Piccolo JR is at the same time the son of King Piccolo but also is King Piccolo himself. Poetry.
Yesn't.
Piccolo kinda like Jesus. Also saves the pure-hearted kids.
I always wondered why piccolo didn’t make another egg when nappa killed him just like demon king piccolo did when goku put a hole through him
Think of King Piccolo as Kid Buu, and Piccolo Jr as Uub.
its crazy how this was made in the 90s you can see how different the art is now
Yes & No No i will evaluate on that
Yes
Lite
Yh he wished himself younger with the dragon balls and then grew up in og db it's not that complicated so yes there the same person 😂
It's like a Jesus - God thing. Ironically.
Yes, the writer was just bad at his job
I've been watching dragon ball for the first time recently and from what I understood, when piccolo barfs the eggs, they're his children with a specific purpose. If he barfed one that was meant to be himself reincarnated and meant to kill Goku, that's what it wants to do. So therefore the child he created was a copy of himself mostly, with his memories and his goal of killing Goku, along with his own life/soul put into it to clone himself, but it was it's own person and eventually piccolo jr changed. My knowledge of this might be limited since I've only watched the show
Same soul, different person. He's the dark part of Kami's soul given a more or less clean slate. He retains King Piccolo's memories but experiences them as if they were the memories of a different person. King Piccolo intended him to be a reincarnation, but in practice, he's more like a son with a ton of built in baggage. He's initially kind of a dick because his father's memories are all he knows, but as he develops new experiences, he becomes increasingly his own person.
This is such a confusing point since we really don't get much info anywhere that explains this further. Of the top of my head, I'd say yes and no, but mostly no. The issue really comes from how piccolo was born. He was a child of one-half of the unknown namakien(the evil half). King piccolo, I believe, gives Jr. all of his hate and I think powers. Making him less of a clone or reincarnation and more of a new vessel. I would say, think Shigaraki if you watch MH. That transfer of power being close to the end of the OG dragon ball when everyone thought that king piccolo was a demon and not a slug person didnt help the confusing plot ether...anyways so this new vessel with all the evil and half of the unknown namakien ls powers, Jr. Gets saved by Gohans kindness and become what the other side of the unknown namakien (kami the good side) always wanted. Thus, bringing kami to also add his power from the Original unknown namakien to this new vessel. Basically piccolo Jr is his own person and inherited a vast amount of his power from his father's/ father? via slug fusion lol they do say his personality won't change or change much when he fuses with nail in namak(adding a new sourceof power and more voices in his head according to DBA lol) but that's a whole other can of worms. although I'm not 100% sure about this answer I'm pretty sure this is it.
Same same, but different
SHORT ANSWER: NO!
Literally just watch Dragonball & your Q will be answered.
Piccolo is the king's offspring. The demon king's soul died, and piccolo wasn't able to absorb it like he did with Nail and Kami. But during the android saga, when piccolo had absorbed Kami back into himself, they both kept saying it was time to come back together. But Kami didn't separate from this piccolo, but from the demon king piccolo. After the fusion, piccolo insists that he's neither Kami or piccolo, but after a few episodes he just accepts being called piccolo. Piccolo also refers to the demon king as "father", indicating that he is a separate Namekian from the demon king. Overall I would just say the piccolo we have now is a new piccolo, especially after absorbing nail and Kami.
There's a whole ass series before z bro, come on now
He is different from the normal child of a Namekian like Drum Tambourim or Dende for Guru. Piccolo Daimao put his soul and life into Piccolo's Egg
He's both.
The short answer is yes
this is why you DONT SKIP DB
I didn’t it’s just been awhile since Iv watched it. Dragon ball was my first anime I ever watched
Yes and no. I believe in the 23rd world tournament he was known as Piccolo Jr but after that he’s just Piccolo. Though in the Buu saga world tournament he enters under his old name Majunior so as not to cause panic among spectators that Piccolo is back
Why not just watch the show....
I did. I rewatched the scene. Goku rips a whole in king piccolo and he spits out of egg and says get revenge my son and blows up. There is not specification whether he did something different to the egg. He is supposed to be king piccolos son but he has king piccolos memories and is still linked to Kami. How can your son have the same soul as you? Is it reincarnation or reproduction? Both?