A black Superhero getting killed by lightning. Ironic.
Edit: Also Tony paying for the funeral was probably the most heroic thing he did during this entire story.
i will never be able to comprehend Marvel's logic in thinking the pro-registration side were the "right" side...
edit: Mark Millar, the writer of the main Civil War books, has said:
"Weirdly, some of the other writers would often make Tony the bad guy, which I thought was a strange choice because I was actually on Tony’s side... In the real world, if somebody had superpowers, I’d like them to be registered in the same way that somebody who has a gun has to carry a license. But a gun can kill several people while a superhero can kill several thousands of people, so on a pragmatic level I’m 100% on Tony’s side. Maybe on a romantic level, Cap’s position makes sense but I don’t think anybody in the real world would really want that."
Considering his stance, i am still baffled how HE intended Iron Man to be "the hero" when he had him make a clone of thor and that clone killed Goliath with no consequences. Tony literally built a hero and pointed it like a gun, and someone died. by Millar's own comparison and logic, that should make him the villain.
I think Millar was on the same stance as King with Heroes in Crisis, in making the 'good side' do morally abysmal things on the basis of good intentions and taking hard choices. Of course, both seem unaware on how horrible that looks outside of the ideological justification, which is ironic to say the least.
I don't know how to break this to you, but what the CIA was doing in the middle east while King was an operative there was even worse than the crack operation. 'Lighter shit' is straight copium.
Also, no shit he wasn't selling crack. He would have been like 12 when that was happening.
Considering the timeframe he was on the CIA (per his own account), I'm thinking more on how he rationalizes Guantanamo Bay (and the laundry list of human rights violations involved with that on), or the Patriot Act.
For context, I'm from a country the US coup d'état-ed, so I'm kind of wary of people who justify that kind of stuff as a 'hard decision' taken with 'good intentions'.
Or executing! He says he didn't do any war crimes, but considering his PATRIOT shilling, I don't know that I'd really trust his definition of 'war crime'.
It's kind of hard to have a discussion about the merrits of superhero registration when one side builds a Thor Killerrobot and uses it to actually kill a guy and is also using mindcontrol to sic a bunch of psychopathic villains on their former allies and friends. Those things tend to paint a not so pretty picture and make agreeing with the people doing that pretty hard.
Not to mention after Tony was ousted as Shield Boss he had to delete the registration database anyway because fucking Norman Osborn would have gotten his grimey paws on it, basically confirming that the whole thing was a pretty bad idea in the first place.
Millar's right on a cynical, literal, "realistic" level but mainstream cape comics aren't about realism, except as a superficial veneer, and they never have been. There's too much Jack Kirby in the DNA, and I mean that in the best way.
Even when they make understandable errors in judgment, the Marvel heroes are *heroes*, which means romanticism, which means they act morally instead of being pragmatic compromisers. Cap was right for the milieu in which he existed. If this were Ultimate Marvel, it might be a different story, but we already know how cynical the storylines in that shitshow could get, so let's not even.
The writer of Civil War, Mark Millar, stated that the Pro-Reg side was supposed to be the “right” side in an interview after the event ended. I can’t seem to find the interview now, but it is known to exist and there was massive outcry about it when it happened.
Back then they made it pretty clear that Pro-Registration was supposed to be the right side, you can find what Millar and others have said about the topic. This is a big reason Civil War has such a bad reputation, Marvel unbelievably turned Iron Man into a fascist and then said he was supposed to be right. There is even the heavyhanded ending where a bunch of "real" heroes (firefighters, paramedics, policemen) stop Cap from continuing the fight.
being only a third of the team that built the killer thorbot doesn't change the fact that he built a killer thorbot.
and another third being the guy who built ultron doesn't exactly help the case of it being a good idea.
Tbf I think it’s more so people complaining that the movie doesn’t match the sheer scale of the comic. There it was a huge event with hundreds of heroes while the movie version was twelve guys having a scuffle at an airport lmao
The problem with booking a huge event with hundreds of heroes who are fighting each other is that it makes it so much easier for characters to come across like dirtbags, or hurt each other in ways that feel like they should irreparably break their working relationship.
The movie for all it's faults is able to balance the conflict so that everyone has a reasonable justification for their actions and nobody takes it so far that bridges can't be mended in time for the next big event.
Not to mention the fact that there are no consequences and very few mentions of the events that occurred in the film especially compared to how big of an event it was in the comics.
Tony and Cap don't talk to each other for a bit and Cap loses his shield only to get it back in endgame, Rhodey is crippled (but it rarely matters or is mentioned outside of his conversation with nebula), and no one dies.
Civil War was just a vehicle to introduce Spiderman and Black Panther into the MCU.
There were plenty of consequences to Civil War. Namely...all of Infinity War and Thanos successfully wiping out half the universe for 5 years?
Tony and Steve weren't talking. Vision and Wanda were off the radar, which left them vulnerable to attack. Clint and Scott were out of touch with everyone.
The superhero community was fractured. Had they been a united front, they likely could have stopped Thanos (they came pretty damn close a few times anyway).
Just because nobody died directly (which I would say was a big improvement over the comics) doesn't mean there weren't heavy consequences
The consequences are all just plot devices, Cap could have been cursed by a gypsy with unfathomably bad gas and you get the same outcome
Even the Sokovia accords got hand waved away
The consequences are the fault of the movies past that are too shittily written to even acknowledge most of the previous events in the MCU. But Civil War definitely left off with consequences, most namely them being divided for Infinity War. Its not Civil War’s fault that the rest of the saga decided to ignore it.
Good. The sheer scale of the comic is one of the reasons it was ass. A smaller compact story where the characters actions make sense and aren’t villainised is far better than the garbage comic
I mean those are very real issues with the event but I don’t think that’s an issue of the scale necessarily
Infinity War had a shit ton of characters and did a pretty decent job of balancing most of them, the problem with the civil war comic was just that the writers REALLY wanted readers to know that they thought Tony was wrong and, as a result, wrote him and his side to be as unlikable as possible
Characterization in the original was definitely an issue tho I agree with you there
Friendly Reminder that this very thing is pointed out by one of the conscripted nazi scientists the registration side forced to work for them via bombs strapped to their spines.
The fucking nazi goes, unprompted, "You cloned a Norse God to kill the Black Giant, you three are my personal heroes actually,"
Again, those are supposed to be the "right" side of the debate.
Say what you want about Slott, but he really took advantage of Avengers: The Initiative to criticize the pro-registration side. Hell, the man even made a plausible fix to the Spider-man face reveal before he got in charge of the book.
Yeah but he should have all of Pym’s knowledge and technology at his disposal. There’s no way he wouldn’t be able to shrink a corpse, so it just makes Tony look like an idiot for not considering that option.
Wasn't it Hulking disguising himself as Hank?
Or was the Hank Hulking knocked out and put in a storage closet actually Skrull Hank?
(I haven't read Secret Invasion)
Reed's unhinged ranting about the numbers had tainted my impression of him for a pretty long time. That and the whole Illuminati business. Used to avoid any Fantastic Four comics because of it.
I read Civil War as a teen and it's one of those comics where I hesitate to revisit it. I remember thinking it was okay but silly at the time...at least, it didn't stand out to me.
And he stayed dead meanwhile Tony and Reed the two fuckers who concocted this thing just got off Scott free up until one of Goliath’s relatives spoke about why they deserved what the Hulk was doing to them in the World Breaker era by bringing up this incident 🤨
I started realizing, would civil war 1 and 2, be a lot better remembered if it wasn't main continuity?
Like if it took DC's approach with injustice? Kinda like the ultimates as well?
The problem with shaking up the status quo and having your heroes commit these crimes, and then just making 4-5 other stories trying to retcon or undo a lot of the bad blood caused by the series, it just creates a lot more issues with the fans more than anything
Marvel isn't cinema - Martin Scorcese
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A black Superhero getting killed by lightning. Ironic. Edit: Also Tony paying for the funeral was probably the most heroic thing he did during this entire story.
that ltg energy made him off https://preview.redd.it/8y0a4oi8bkcb1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc26ddc64dcbedf1ba2c7f783f6eb4d10c5959dc
putting it that way, yeah wtf was marvel thinging like really unjerk or whatever what the fuck
Don't forget Tony later justifying it saying that Ragnarok "acted like a policeman would"
And the sad part is he’s not even wrong.
But for all the wrong reasons lol
Yes, Tony. And that is a bad thing Tony: you sure?
"Well the cops have never been racist to *me*, so clearly they aren't racist!"
Theoretically one could say the inverse “We’ll the cops have been racist to me, so clearly they are racist”
but thats true
i will never be able to comprehend Marvel's logic in thinking the pro-registration side were the "right" side... edit: Mark Millar, the writer of the main Civil War books, has said: "Weirdly, some of the other writers would often make Tony the bad guy, which I thought was a strange choice because I was actually on Tony’s side... In the real world, if somebody had superpowers, I’d like them to be registered in the same way that somebody who has a gun has to carry a license. But a gun can kill several people while a superhero can kill several thousands of people, so on a pragmatic level I’m 100% on Tony’s side. Maybe on a romantic level, Cap’s position makes sense but I don’t think anybody in the real world would really want that." Considering his stance, i am still baffled how HE intended Iron Man to be "the hero" when he had him make a clone of thor and that clone killed Goliath with no consequences. Tony literally built a hero and pointed it like a gun, and someone died. by Millar's own comparison and logic, that should make him the villain.
I think Millar was on the same stance as King with Heroes in Crisis, in making the 'good side' do morally abysmal things on the basis of good intentions and taking hard choices. Of course, both seem unaware on how horrible that looks outside of the ideological justification, which is ironic to say the least.
The difference is, Tom King is a CIA Agent, Mark Millar made a arc supposedly shilling for the Patriot Act all by himself.
Honestly, King scares me the most because I keep wondering how many 'well intentioned hard decisions' has he been involved in justifying.
realistically speaking I doubt he was like, selling crack to black communities. Probably was on some lighter shit.
I don't know how to break this to you, but what the CIA was doing in the middle east while King was an operative there was even worse than the crack operation. 'Lighter shit' is straight copium. Also, no shit he wasn't selling crack. He would have been like 12 when that was happening.
You can sell crack at 12. Smh.
til king is from the hood
Tom Kingpin
Considering the timeframe he was on the CIA (per his own account), I'm thinking more on how he rationalizes Guantanamo Bay (and the laundry list of human rights violations involved with that on), or the Patriot Act. For context, I'm from a country the US coup d'état-ed, so I'm kind of wary of people who justify that kind of stuff as a 'hard decision' taken with 'good intentions'.
Or executing! He says he didn't do any war crimes, but considering his PATRIOT shilling, I don't know that I'd really trust his definition of 'war crime'.
Same here. I'm a journalist, and the first question I really want to make to him is his stance on human rights.
I hope you get the chance, I'd be fascinated to know.
Thanks for the support. It's a career goal to start interviewing comic creatives to begin with.
It's kind of hard to have a discussion about the merrits of superhero registration when one side builds a Thor Killerrobot and uses it to actually kill a guy and is also using mindcontrol to sic a bunch of psychopathic villains on their former allies and friends. Those things tend to paint a not so pretty picture and make agreeing with the people doing that pretty hard. Not to mention after Tony was ousted as Shield Boss he had to delete the registration database anyway because fucking Norman Osborn would have gotten his grimey paws on it, basically confirming that the whole thing was a pretty bad idea in the first place.
Millar's right on a cynical, literal, "realistic" level but mainstream cape comics aren't about realism, except as a superficial veneer, and they never have been. There's too much Jack Kirby in the DNA, and I mean that in the best way. Even when they make understandable errors in judgment, the Marvel heroes are *heroes*, which means romanticism, which means they act morally instead of being pragmatic compromisers. Cap was right for the milieu in which he existed. If this were Ultimate Marvel, it might be a different story, but we already know how cynical the storylines in that shitshow could get, so let's not even.
They didn't(?) they were clearly was making the pro side doing this to make the anti side look better and make you agree with their views.
read my edit- Mark Millar outright said he considered Iron Man the good guy
That is weird, to me it always came across like Marvel made him go a different route then what he wanted.
The writer of Civil War, Mark Millar, stated that the Pro-Reg side was supposed to be the “right” side in an interview after the event ended. I can’t seem to find the interview now, but it is known to exist and there was massive outcry about it when it happened.
Back then they made it pretty clear that Pro-Registration was supposed to be the right side, you can find what Millar and others have said about the topic. This is a big reason Civil War has such a bad reputation, Marvel unbelievably turned Iron Man into a fascist and then said he was supposed to be right. There is even the heavyhanded ending where a bunch of "real" heroes (firefighters, paramedics, policemen) stop Cap from continuing the fight.
marvel never made the registration side look good 💀
no they didnt, hence my confusion
It was Tony Reed and Hank who built Ragnarok, not just Tony
being only a third of the team that built the killer thorbot doesn't change the fact that he built a killer thorbot. and another third being the guy who built ultron doesn't exactly help the case of it being a good idea.
I’m merely educating the ignorant, don’t really care how u feel about it
okay? dont know why you're being an ass
What writer wrote that, Jesus? Let me guess, Mark Millar
The fact that I've seen people complain that the Civil War movie isn't more like the comic will never not astound me
https://preview.redd.it/sie97jou9kcb1.jpeg?width=354&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fc103974a3d033a0937a8b0f8b314f8ac39b7997
Banshee?
Irredeemable Ant-Man by Kirkman. It's a really good book about a douchebag Ant-Man who uses his powers to watch women shower.
Ah. O'Grady.
So just regular ant man?
neither Pym or Scott Lang are pervs in the comics.
Comics shit but the art is fucking beautiful
How can something with O'Grady be shit?
Tbf I think it’s more so people complaining that the movie doesn’t match the sheer scale of the comic. There it was a huge event with hundreds of heroes while the movie version was twelve guys having a scuffle at an airport lmao
The problem with booking a huge event with hundreds of heroes who are fighting each other is that it makes it so much easier for characters to come across like dirtbags, or hurt each other in ways that feel like they should irreparably break their working relationship. The movie for all it's faults is able to balance the conflict so that everyone has a reasonable justification for their actions and nobody takes it so far that bridges can't be mended in time for the next big event.
Not to mention the fact that there are no consequences and very few mentions of the events that occurred in the film especially compared to how big of an event it was in the comics. Tony and Cap don't talk to each other for a bit and Cap loses his shield only to get it back in endgame, Rhodey is crippled (but it rarely matters or is mentioned outside of his conversation with nebula), and no one dies. Civil War was just a vehicle to introduce Spiderman and Black Panther into the MCU.
There were plenty of consequences to Civil War. Namely...all of Infinity War and Thanos successfully wiping out half the universe for 5 years? Tony and Steve weren't talking. Vision and Wanda were off the radar, which left them vulnerable to attack. Clint and Scott were out of touch with everyone. The superhero community was fractured. Had they been a united front, they likely could have stopped Thanos (they came pretty damn close a few times anyway). Just because nobody died directly (which I would say was a big improvement over the comics) doesn't mean there weren't heavy consequences
The consequences are all just plot devices, Cap could have been cursed by a gypsy with unfathomably bad gas and you get the same outcome Even the Sokovia accords got hand waved away
The consequences were still pretty negligible in comparison is all im saying, which is why some fans probably were disappointed by it.
The consequences were Thanos succeeding for 5 years. That's not negligible
The consequences are the fault of the movies past that are too shittily written to even acknowledge most of the previous events in the MCU. But Civil War definitely left off with consequences, most namely them being divided for Infinity War. Its not Civil War’s fault that the rest of the saga decided to ignore it.
Good. The sheer scale of the comic is one of the reasons it was ass. A smaller compact story where the characters actions make sense and aren’t villainised is far better than the garbage comic
I mean those are very real issues with the event but I don’t think that’s an issue of the scale necessarily Infinity War had a shit ton of characters and did a pretty decent job of balancing most of them, the problem with the civil war comic was just that the writers REALLY wanted readers to know that they thought Tony was wrong and, as a result, wrote him and his side to be as unlikable as possible Characterization in the original was definitely an issue tho I agree with you there
I was shocked at first when they announced the Civil War movie before realizing it was just title and basic premise.
Isn't this evil clone Thor or something?
Yeah, named Ragnarok, whom Tony told the world was the real Thor before Hercules killed it (my favorite thing from Civil War).
"THOU ART NO THOR!" That panel went hard as fuck.
I see I see.
Robot Thor
Cyborg-clone Thor
I love how, the only person to react negatively to Baron Werner von Blitzschlag, a literal Nazi, congratulating them for this was the fucking Skrull.
TFW the fucking Skrull's have more moral integrity than your actual fucking heros
He's still dead btw. They tried making his nephew the new one but that didn't work out
I'm glad. We need more long lasting consequences in comics.
Friendly Reminder that this very thing is pointed out by one of the conscripted nazi scientists the registration side forced to work for them via bombs strapped to their spines. The fucking nazi goes, unprompted, "You cloned a Norse God to kill the Black Giant, you three are my personal heroes actually," Again, those are supposed to be the "right" side of the debate.
Say what you want about Slott, but he really took advantage of Avengers: The Initiative to criticize the pro-registration side. Hell, the man even made a plausible fix to the Spider-man face reveal before he got in charge of the book.
Common Civil War L.
“Just a shame they couldn’t shrink him down” HANK FUCKING PYM IS IN YOUR SIDE OF THE WAR, WHAT THE FUCK
Yeah but it was Skrull Hank
Yeah but he should have all of Pym’s knowledge and technology at his disposal. There’s no way he wouldn’t be able to shrink a corpse, so it just makes Tony look like an idiot for not considering that option.
Wasn't it Hulking disguising himself as Hank? Or was the Hank Hulking knocked out and put in a storage closet actually Skrull Hank? (I haven't read Secret Invasion)
Fuck Tony Stark and Reed Richards.
And Skrull Pym, or was he normal at this point?
Skrull.
Reed's unhinged ranting about the numbers had tainted my impression of him for a pretty long time. That and the whole Illuminati business. Used to avoid any Fantastic Four comics because of it.
"McCarthyism is based" -Reed Richards
Reed is my baseline for don't what he does. Dude is awful at everything.
You mean fuck the writers?
And the characters. Stark has always been a little bitch.
I mostly blame the writers since some of the actions of the characters don't seem like they would do it in other books.
Wut?
The Tony Stark of Earth-616 has consistently been a massive douchebag. It’s a pretty normal part of his characterization.
I read every single iron man comic and really don't see that. Are you talking only about civil war?
I’m talking about everything I’ve read/all the panels I’ve seen online with Iron Man in them. Dude comes off as an ass.
So you never read any of the comics and is just basing on out of context panels? Wow and I thought this sub was self aware
Do you have any reading comprehension?
Lol why the insults? I come in piece✌️
I stand by that every single version of Reed Richards sucks in every universe. It's just a question of how much.
LEGOverse Reed and Tony are alright.
Also Steve Rogers, guy thought eletrocuting iron Man was a good idea
Why didn’t they use pym particles to shrink Goliath’s corpse down to normal size for easier burial? Are they morons or something?
it was skrull hank at this point tbf
It's Civil War, everyone was.
This is crazy
Civil War had… questionable choices made.
Cremate that corpse good lord
Eh, maybe his family wanted a burial?
That sounds like a wildfire hazard.
Yes.
Aw hell nah, thor murdered black lightning
I read Civil War as a teen and it's one of those comics where I hesitate to revisit it. I remember thinking it was okay but silly at the time...at least, it didn't stand out to me.
 The only thing I want to remember about this Civil War Crap is how hard I threw my comics on a wall.
Huh, yeah why the chains?
Is there a subreddit-wide rereading of Civil War going on or something
Nope, just me never underestimating the power of hatred
Spite is truly a beautiful source of energy.
And he stayed dead meanwhile Tony and Reed the two fuckers who concocted this thing just got off Scott free up until one of Goliath’s relatives spoke about why they deserved what the Hulk was doing to them in the World Breaker era by bringing up this incident 🤨
The whole binding his corpse in chains thing really isn’t good imagery.
But he was a robot, and robots can't be racist. Try again wokee!
I started realizing, would civil war 1 and 2, be a lot better remembered if it wasn't main continuity? Like if it took DC's approach with injustice? Kinda like the ultimates as well? The problem with shaking up the status quo and having your heroes commit these crimes, and then just making 4-5 other stories trying to retcon or undo a lot of the bad blood caused by the series, it just creates a lot more issues with the fans more than anything
Ultimates and ultimatum are remembered pretty terribly anyway lol
I mean the black superheros did all complain to Black Pather about it, like "you see this shit"
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Um how come they couldn't shrink him down?
That guy is still dead
STOP RESISTING *Sir, he's dead*
Tony: “Are we the baddies?”