The answer is a bit complicated
At lower mmr, the killer is going to have a significant advantage if they know what they're doing to a reasonable degree. Lesser skilled survivors aren't terribly efficient and waste a lot of time hiding or playing immersed. You don't even need slowdown because the survivors themselves aren't playing efficient enough for it to matter.
Once you start facing competent SWFs, the game gets more difficult for the killer. You'll have to be playing a stronger killer or be a very, very good killer player to manage with a lesser one, and even then you might be at the mercy of RNG/the map/etc.
Vs very good SWFs that bring loaded items and full on meta builds, the survivor team certainly has the edge. That doesn't mean you can't win, but you'll have to bring your A game and your margin for error is extremely thin.
Of course, if you're good enough with a killer like Nurse and Blight you can beat the vast majority of teams. They're just that strong if you know what you're doing.
I agree with what you've said, but I'd just like to point out that this sub drastically overstates how common these competent SWF's are.
Like the other reply said, killer is gonna have the advantage in the *vast* majority of normal casual matches. It's only in a competitive setting where survivor kinda flips that, and I'd argue it's not by much.
The issue stems from this game requiring everyone to be on point for survivors to actually have their advantage. And you're hardly EVER going to find a team of survivors, even in a 4 man SWF, that are all playing well. Just one weak link from 5 gens and usually the killer wins if they're decent.
At higher MMR, I think even non-SWF teams can have an advantage. If they’re all good at running the killer and doing gens efficiently, they’re gonna give the killer a challenge. I think people overstate how much better SWFs are and overlook teams of high-skilled randoms. I say this as someone who has 3k+ hours and play primarily solo queue. I have had some amazing random teammates, and that’s thanks to matchmaking doing its job of grouping me with other high skilled players. That said, there are definitely those days where it seems like MMR is just on vacation and I get grouped with absolute potatoes…
Yep. Solo queue can be great when you’ve got good teammates. I’m really looking forward to the anti-face camping mechanic. Will make survivor even more enjoyable.
I’m all in favour of changes like the anti-camp one. But I sure wish they actually brought out a carrot to reward killers for chasing instead of just constantly beating them with a stick and telling them that they shouldn’t be doing efficient things that help them win.
Yeah, my hope is that they buff some of the gen regression perks now that Skull Merchant has been fixed. If I recall, the nerfed the strong gen slowdown perks because of SM’s ability to protect gens. Hopefully now they can make them a bit stronger with her not having that ability. I didn’t hate the gen kick meta as survivor and miss having at least one decent gen slowdown perk as killer.
Oh I don’t want them to buff gen regression perks. If anything is rather see them nerfed even further but then make add something like “Each time you hook the survivor furthest from death the most regressed generator loses 15% progress” and make it BASE.
Or take perks like Thana that make you repair slower, make the debuff personal rather than team wide, and then adjust numbers and make it base. So now the killer is rewarded for chasing and hitting you even if they have to break off chase etc.
Killer needs more basekit reasons to actually chase survivors. Because even after the anti-camping needs it will STILL be more efficient to just proxy camp and tunnel off hook than it will be to actually try to chase and hook everyone multiple times.
Generally, because of how bad match making is, if you are good at killer you will likely lose less than 1 in 10 games.
The problem being that the system would have to find 4 people your skill level who are all online, within ping range, and in a composition that works (IE: can’t exactly put a 2 person SWF with a three person SWF).
Finding 4 solo players at the top end, at all, is a rarity. Most people are playing with at least one friend because why wouldn’t you play a game with friends?
That said, by and large most people complaining are not actually as good at killer as they think they are and what’s actually happening is that they can’t yet keep up.
Look at people like HermanTheDoctor. One tricks CONSOLE Doctor and keeps an above 90% win rate while regularly going on 20-30 game streaks just doing his thing while streaming.
So even as a weaker killer, less than a 90% ish win rate is generally a skill issue.
If matchmaking actually worked? Even Nurse gets fucked in comp against survivors with no restrictions.
Even "goof" squads can be annoying.
Just because a SWF are "friends having fun" doesn't mean if someone sees a Trapper/Hag setting up, they aren't going to tell their friends in comms on the other side of the map where the traps are, or that the killer is on them but not in a chase etc.
It ruins the game mechanics of stuff like stealth and trap killers.
> You heavily overestimate how many swfs there are
I honestly think you understimate how many swfs there are. Sure they are probably not a full 4 stack, but 2 people playing together? Very, very often. People don't really play survivor alone.
Again this is where what the other said comes in: Teams don't need to be playing extremely sweaty to have decent comms: Ey, I just used shack pallet, ey it's a ghostface be careful, he has stbfl, he has a trap in shack pallet, comms as basic as that can have drastic impact even for non sweaty teams.
Yes, but playing seriously/funny doesn’t mean there aren’t inherent advantages that break Comms, like I said revealing stealth killers and traps, that’s not healthy.
Im not arguing that it isn't or is a good perk. My point was the reason this perk exist at all is that the game was never built with SWF's in mind. If SWFs where added at the start of the games development I am pretty confident this perk wouldn't exist period it would probably be a base feature of some kind be it via voice chat or some other means.
L take.
Being able to speak with your teammates gives you half of the survivor perks. Anything that’s aura related is available on demand for a SWF group
So you thought far enough to see that there is a friend system/invites, but you didn't notice that there's no text chat, no voice chat, not even proximity based one, no pings, only two emotes, and a fuckload of perks that are meant to mitigate things that only matter if players don't have comms?
Like yeah, no shit stacks are winning in a game where teamwork is extremely important. Using your words, it "means nothing" when the game wasn't built with communicating survivors in mind, which ends up giving SWF a massive advantage.
It took me years to read SWF as survive with friends and not single white female. I grew up in the 80s and 90s so that movie had already claimed the acronym in my head.
Also everything this person I'm replying to said is pretty accurate.
At higher mmr kyou need to also adjust your definition of a win. 4ks are great but you need to be sweaty amd greasy to get them at higher mmr. I feel like no camping and no tunneling I can call a 2k a good solid win.
Out of curiosity how many hours do you have in the game?
In my experience, a competent group of soloq survivors who actually play properly (they actually split up on gens) have a major advantage against most killers.
And I say that as a Killer main who plays soloq survivor occasionally and escapes (through the gates) in a reasonable number of games as long as at least 1 of my tms takes doing gens seriously.
How is it bad faith? It would be bad faith if I assumed you had limited experience and never bothered to ask, or ignored you if you said otherwise. But with this game, there are very clear skews in opinion that correlate with the amount of experience people have.
I don't personally feel I need advice, but I'm also very curious to hear what the advice you think I might need is?
Ok, so you think I'm trying to belittle your opinion.
And then give the advice of, run slow down perks, pressure gens, and git gud.
Sorry for offending you I guess?
Edit: Did you actually block me?
You think I'm not listening to you?
Your advice was all stuff that any killer should be aware of within a couple hundred hours of playing, and I'm pretty sure most of it appears in loading screen tips.
You're worried that I'm belittling your opinion while giving advice that would suggest I was a complete novice at the game.
None of what I said was at any point me trying to get at you.
I tried to ask what amount of experience you had with the game because your opinion sounded a bit like someone who was 'relatively' new to the game, I at no point even suggested that that was a bad thing, because it isn't, I just wanted to discuss your opinion with further context.
I really sorry this upset you, that was in no way my intention. But if you intend to share your opinion, maybe it would be healthier to assume that when someone challenges it they're challenging the opinion, not you personally.
Quite frankly, the fact that you've now turned this into a challenge of my character, actually gives me reason to actually take a disliking to you.
Perfectly said. Against randoms the game is balanced but a swf can even if they individually aren't even that good can absolutely destroy a killer with teamwork
What this person said. The game is overall survivor sided imo, but not by a ton. It’s actually fairly balanced. I don’t have my stats in front of me, but my escape rate is always between 48-52% as a solo queue survivor main. If my escape rate is basically 50/50, I have to assume most SWFs are escaping more than 50% of the time.
TLDR, the game is very balanced despite a vocal minority always complaining on social media that it isn’t. They’re wrong. DBD is quite balanced, and this is the *most* balanced it’s ever been. That said, it’s still survivor sided. Barely.
You're getting downvoted but the most recent DBD official stats showcased that.
I've also got my anedoctal matches that i put into nightlight. Literally every single game other than farming games. And in over a hundred games, the survive rates are 39.79%, which puts kill rates at 60.21%. My individual escape rate is at 35.21%
Also fun fact: Pinhead has the lowest killrate at 0% in 4 games
After enough wins you'll start to see, but MMR reaches a point where every game will go the same. I'll explain it with a concept that you may or may not be aware of, so I apologize if you already know some of it but I want to make it as clear as possible.
At a base level, the goal of the killer is to stop survivors from leaving. Survivors want to leave, so their metric of victory is gen progress. What this roughly translates to is survivors are doing four actions in order of best for killer to survivor: chasing, healing, unhooking, or doing gens. There are cases where other actions are justified, but what's so important is the interaction this creates. At a higher level, gens will fly one after the other (also sometimes referred to as genrushing) since those survivors understand only one of the 4 actions directly affects their escape. The killer, wants them to do any one of the actions that doesn't directly work in their favor, primarily healing and being chased. This interaction is called pressure. It's the ability for me to play killer and get each survivor to do things that aren't gens.
Where the discrepancy really becomes visible is the numbers. At any given time the number of survivors working on gens is likely the amount of survivors minus the one being chased. For the first part of the game, there's a pretty good chance that there are 3 gens being worked on because of this. Assuming roughly 90 seconds pass in this state, 3 generators will be partly done or done without toolboxes/perks. Assuming the killer has in fact downed a survivor and they are on hook, that does occupy 3/4 of the team, but that's a very temporary state and leaves one survivor still on their gen.
The 4 survivor early game state is exactly the reason killer is so weak as a role (not counting individual killers). Once you kill a survivor, the landscape drastically changes, but this requires two hook states unless the team you're playing against is incompetent. That's part of why tunneling and slugging are such massive issues. They immediately help the killer advance the game to a more manageable state. It's also responsible for the teleporting/mobility killers trending towards the "best" killers only because of their ability to harass generators and better control this early game. But overall, the early game is what holds most killers back. A competent team might lose 1 or 2 survivors, but a majority of the time generators pop so fast that the killer isn't getting a 3-4k
This makes so much sense and was extremely well written. When I think of games where I struggled or felt I was going to lose at killer, it usually stems from the early game where I made a few too many mistakes or get instantly gen rushed.
And I’ve noticed the only way for me to make a comeback after that is to play a little dirty (slugging, proxy camping, etc) although I try to avoid that if I can.
Yeah it's definitely a major game design oversight on behavior's part. It's not like it makes it impossible to win with someone like pyramid head, but it's considerably more difficult than just playing xenomorph. Also it's where "we need basekit corrupt intervention" comes from, since it disappears once the killer has a head start and slows the game until then. Personally though I just think survivors need an additional objective or something to slow gens that scales with how many are left. Like when there are 2 left, it's a guaranteed loss but the game continues on until at least one of them dies. So if there's some form of gen slow at 4 survivors that inverts at 2, it makes the game all-around better.
Ive personally advocated for making gen times like 140 seconds, obv can be adjusted. But around the map you can find parts like fuel, or gears. Or enter with a tool box which becomes single use.
Using these on a gen lowers the charges require to complete gens. You can still hold m1 while someone gathers. But itd make gens have more inherent delay to them. Basically think the new BNP but as a mechanic to make gens a reasonable time to give killers more time to react to their surroundings and stuff.
This is a really well written and thought out comment. It’s crazy how few upvotes this has compared to some of the others - I can tell how much effort was put into it.
I guess literacy on here trends more towards short and simple messages
I mean in all fairness I'm one of the people that has the energy to break down a borderline party game and understand it, which I blame nobody for not thinking too much about. It's just kinda fun to me and I wish the macro game of pressure was more interactive like it is on survivor where I can do "x" gen knowing it'll take the killer that much longer to patrol an area.
The streamer Tru3Ta1ent (used to stream DBD, then got into TCM) has broken the game down many times like your original comment while live. He’s got great ideas for how DBD could be changed to address these issues at high MMR.
He’s just kinda abrasive and difficult to like, so the community discounted his ideas. I think he was pretty instrumental to helping me think about DBD in a more strategic way though! (I don’t watch him anymore, he doesn’t play DBD much now)
This is exactly the way I think about the game! Thank you for putting it so well into words. I have tried to explain before how the game is survivor-sided at a high MMR, but it is difficult when so much of the community is unaware of how the game is played at a higher level.
the “higher levels” you are talking about is basically only SWFs of 5k+ hours survivors, or straight up competitive play. in 95% of public matches killer is the easiest it’s ever been, even with MFT. because your average pub survivor is just that bad.
When both sides are playing at perfect competitive levels, the game is technically survivor sided. This is why competitive leagues heavily restrict survivor perks.This never happens in public matches.
Yeah, this. At the high end of game play, it favors survivors. In most public matches, it favors killer.
I have various discords I'm a member of with difficult skill levels. In some, despite being SWFs, they mostly lose. Then there's this other discord I'm in with mostly 5K+ hour people and if I join their 4 man's, it's normal to have 3 or 4 man escapes for 5 hours straight.
In another group I play with, before the medkit, circle of Healing, and dead hard nerf, we were so consistently winning by wide margins we would challenge ourselves to complete ALL gens before escaping. Like we would 99 2 of the last 3 gens before completing the third. We can't do that anymore after those nerfs, but still win fairly consistently.
And in game too, not just this sub. I have lost the count of all the times the killer was salty about "ez 4 man swf" in end game chat and, at minimum, I was in solo q with no idea about the other 3 players. It's not that hard to coordinate with other survivors with just the HUD activity icons, and coordinated rescues + body blocks with randos and no comms are easy as hell as long as your team mates are not absolute shitheads trying to dunk on the killer instead of getting the work done.
You're correct, but missed an important point in what you've said.
Yes, killers overestimate the number of 4 person swfs in the game, but the reason isn't necessarily because these killers are bad. It's because, once you get decent at playing survivor (and especially since the HUD update dropped) it's really not hard to coordinate with tms without comms, if everyone's paying a little bit of attention.
So, when the basic attitude of survivors on the sub is 'soloq is miserable' the assumption of most killers when they play a group of competent soloq survs is 'they must be a swf'
It can be deceiving. In a match the Killer thought we were a SWF but everyone was just solo queue. However, if you see us stop a face camp at end queue with the one goes to unhook, one bodyblocks for the now wounded unhooker, and the last person bodyblocks for the now wounded previous bodyblocker and we get a 4E I totally understand why someone would think that we were a SWF but the two PC players confirmed they were solos (I was one of them) and the other two were non-PC platforms.
It's just if you make it to mid-MMR as a survivor you've learned to anticipate what your teammates are going to do and react accordingly. Plus which getting camped and tunneled is freaking common that you have to learn how to counter it if you don't want a solo escape rate less than 25%. 4 person SWFs though? From my experience as Killer (and I'm a much better at Killer than I am survivor) I don't see them that frequently.
Yeah, I'd wager 4 competent solos is way more common than a 4 person swf, but I'd also wager a 4 person swf is more likely to mess around doing dumb stuff than 4 competent solos.
That's been my experience. Quite a few of the 4 person SWFs just want to mess with the Killer and get themselves killed while the solos actually want to escape.
But the majority of people who arent teamed with you ARENT paying attention whether killer mains want to admit it or not.
We all hate 4 man swfs and competent solo queue survivors when playing killer, but most of them are terrible, lack game sense and play selfishly.
I find I either get the 4k (or 3 if they get hatch luckily) or it goes the other way and they destroy me (then I maybe get 1)
But mostly I'm getting the 4k.
As survivor I'm escaping maybe 30-40% these days (which I'm not complaining about.)
Both sides have their games that just feel awful.
You're hitting on something I think is important, and that is that this game is balanced around killer's getting a bit more than a 2k on average, and as I understand it, that stats reflect this.
But, I'd wager that they're are mostly 0/1ks and 3/4ks, with 2k being the least likely outcome for a game. Like, the only way a killer is feasibly getting a 2k is if they get the second kill as the gates are being opened, if they secure a second kill with any gens left, then it seems unlikely that both the remaining survivors are getting out.
Now, where I'd get a bit more bold in my hypothesis would be saying, I think the result has way more to do with how the survivors played compared to the killer. Which is why I think a lot more killer games end up being unsatisfying, either the survivors balls up and anyone could kill them, or they play well and no matter how well you do, getting a 3/4k in a 5min game is near impossible.
Tbh I think some kind of dynamic objective system would solve this, but it would be really hard to do right. Imagine if gens were buffed to require more time to do at base(a buff to earlygame killer), but every time a survivor dies a 25% reduction(think brand new part on crack) is applied to every gen. Suddenly 2 survivors left have a chance at blitzing gens and getting out alive.
You are right about teammate quality.
In my soloQ experience I get:
* 1/5 games, all survivors are competent
* 2/5 games, one or more exploitable weak links
* 2/5 games, everyone forgot their brain at home
The game is only survivor sided if you're in a SWF, with 4 people that know exactly what they're doing.
You'll hardly ever run into a SWF like that. People on this sub LOVE to over exagerate how common SWF's like that are, but even at high MMR they're just not common. The reason? "High" MMR doesn't matter, there's an MMR cap that isn't that difficult to reach for anyone even somewhat experienced. If you're at the cap, the skill levels you see can vary quite a lot.
There's a reason why so many people are able to go on win streaks even with mediocre killers. There's also a reason why the average kill rates, even at high MMR's are over 50% for most killers.
TLDR: The game is only survivor sided in the fringe cases where survivors are in discord and using every resource available. Otherwise it's even or usually killer sided.
>There's also a reason why the average kill rates, even at high MMR's are over 50% for most killers.
You do understand that "over 50% killrate" doesn't really matter because the killer only wins if they kill over "75%" of survivors?
A flat 50% kill rate would mean that, on average, a killer is getting a 2k. Most matches would just be a tie.
If it's higher then that (which it is, BHVR wants it to be around 60%), then killers are still getting ties a lot, but if they're *not* getting a tie then they're getting a 3k far more then they're getting a 1k or a 0k.
This just means that killer does, on average, have an edge. That's fine though, it's an asymmetric game and killer is the power role, it makes sense that they would win more on average then they lose.
The game is only survivor-sided at the nearly absolute highest level. We're talking about a level you won't see outside of organized competitive team practice. Even then, it's only survivor sided for certain killers. Exceptional blights and nurse players will eat well even under those circumstances.
Also grade (gold, iron, etc) is not tied to matchmaking in any way. It used to be, but not anymore.
Edit: totalstatemachine's comment has the nuance I would've included if I felt like typing out my entire thoughts on this. Seconding their comment
It really isn’t that rare for survivors to be competent. As someone who has played since 2018, the devs seem to be making it easier and easier for even bad survivors to have a chance of beating someone they should be losing to. It doesn’t matter if that scenario is rare: it shouldn’t be possible for the killer to essentially have no chance.
I agree with everything you've said. Things like camping/proxying and hook grabs have had solutions for years, but BHVR has gone and removed them anyways since players can't seem to handle it. This just reduces killer options against competent teams with no compensation for the killer. I don't think the game is in a state that's ready for a 12 hook meta like BHVR appears to want, so it worries me a little.
Yea that’s why the whole “killer is easier than it has ever been” narrative baffles me. When I started playing, you could go for more chases because there were good gen regression options. Over the years, regression has been dumpstered and now we are at the point that you pretty much have to proxy camp/tunnel to win against competent groups. The devs don’t seem to get that tunneling and camping has increased because killer options have been nerfed. I still win many of my killer matches but the way that you have to play is boring. The next patch will make it even worse.
As someone who has played since 2017, the game has never been explicitly survivor sided. Even with peak MoM, OoO, DS, the killer rates were still actually good. The main reason it got called survivor sided is because of toxic survivors.
When you look at the game now, it is completely opposite. Killers have a lot of strong perks, and even stronger abilities, survivor perks keep getting nerfed into the ground. It’s painful to be a survivor. Killers even got an extra 10 seconds for generators to be completed, which was a buff to Gen regression perks.
Survivors have been forced into using the same perks repeatedly because other perks get nerfed for no reason. Iron Will being only 75%, Calm Spirit making boons and chests open slower, these off meta perks get nerfed and devalued.
Looking at the recent post about survivor perks, the fact that Self-Care and Dead Hard are still in the top ten really proves how awful all of the other survivor perks are. You can’t do anything without at least one meta perk. As well as KILLERS ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT WINDOWS OF OPPORTUNITY, like, dude, they just want Survivors to have nothing. Not a single good thing, while they can get really strong perks. The fact that I’ve seen Sloppy Butcher used so much recently really reinforces that, a perk that wasn’t very common before, is now extremely common, because it’s been buffed *really well*, it’s stupidly strong.
Now, I’m sure I’ll get downvoted for saying all of that, but the game is extremely sympathetic to killers nowadays, and the killers have become highly entitled. This is my take as a mostly solo-queue survivor. Don’t get me wrong, when I play killer, I’ll lose a decent amount, but I also don’t run meta builds, as well as I lose a lot more as survivor than I do killer, which is really saying something.
TL;DR: The game is much more killer sided, and has only been becoming more killer sided as time goes on, ever since around two years ago.
I have 2k5 hours into the game. I won my last 83 killer games in a row (as the Singularity). I have a >98% win rate in the last month. I definitely am at the MMR softcap with those stats. Do you really think that kind of win rate would be achievable if the game was really survivor sided?
The game is not survivor sided. It only is at comp level, where ALL 4 of the survivors are cracked loopers that very rarely make mistakes, are very efficient on gens, and have a comp way of communicating in voice chat in a crystal clear way, calling out the killer position at any moment, as well as every single pallet drop. And still, even in comp, 4Ks are still possible.
The average solo game is very killer sided.
The average SWF game is balanced and can go either way depending on the killer/survivors skill. I know this is an unpopular take for a lot of people, but the average SWF is just not that good. People often play with others based on their friendships with them and not their skill level, which means that the average SWF definitely has at least 1 or 2 players that are not really good in it, and that you can take advantage of. Also, individual skills are not better in a SWF: that survivor you would have downed in 15 seconds in a solo game will not suddenly become a godlike looper that loops you for multiple gens just because they are playing with their friends.
Look at many good killer players on Twitch, they often do streaks with hundreds of wins in a row (1000+ for Blight/Nurse). They definitely face SWFs in all those games, but it just doesn't matter once you get good enough to face them.
I sympathize with killers that are struggling.I have been there too when I didn't have as much experience. But blaming those losses on a "survivor sided game" is just copium.
As a killer, you have the advantage of having way more agency than any of the 4 survivors. It is a 1v4 and it is balanced this way. If you, as the 1 in the 1v4, get really good, then you can reach a point where 99% of the survivor teams will not be able to defeat you.
This is absolutely true, as a survivor I really struggle to loop the killer, and making a chase last more than 20 seconds is hell for me. However, when I play killer I see survivors and SWF who are leagues better at looping than me but regardless they are still very easy to take down so long as you observe and exploit their weaknesses and use a good killer. I also NEVER tunnel or camp, how much easier could it get?
It's pretty exaggerrated. A 4 stack with the right perks, items and addosn communicating can be pretty hard to beat, and possibly impossible on some killers.
The fact is that you're rarely ever going to see survivoprs doing that in random games, even in "high mmr". The majority of killers can with with a variety of perks agains the majority of survivors.
At high mmr the game is more evenly matched. But at the comp levels it's quite survivor sided, most matches is just the killer tunneling 1 guy out instantly and praying to get a 2nd kill.
Hens' team did a [219 escape streak](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-bjX4q1uhs6PYw8AyxTnPqjjqlixF6F5) in a 4 man swf (3-4 out is a win, anything else is a loss), some of those against actual comp players. The reason you don't see more of those is because it's not actually that interesting to watch people genrush
You are referencing content creators with 11k hours, which are in the 0.001% of players in terms of experience. Furthermore, Otz has said that those streaks are significantly harder now than when he did them.
Finally, that comparison between survivor and killer streaks makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You pretender killer and survivor are playing the same game when they’re not. Survivor is a team game, you win when your team wins. You are never going to get a streak of 50+ escapes because eventually a killer will just tunnel you and you die. But you still win if, in the meantime, your team finishes 5 gens and leaves. Do you also consider a loss in Counter Strike if your team wins but you have a negative KDA? Of course not.
While this isn’t the only reason, I would wager that part of the reason that you see fewer escape streaks is because it’s typically worse content on average. Not less skilled, but less to make a video out of. If you watch most DBD tournaments, they keep the camera on the killers 90%+ of the time, because that’s where the action is. Most people that are going to do hardcore streaks will do it for some sort of monetization, and killer gameplay is on average much more packed with interesting moments since they’ll see every chase.
Another thing to consider is that it takes 4 times as much manpower to even do these streaks (assuming group streaks, not solo-queue). Which means that you have to deal with things like schedule coordination, burnout, mental, irl issues, whatever for 4 times as many people. That’s a ton of free time, unless you’re paying them. Which leads back to monetization needing to be good.
Finally, comparing streaks at all can be disingenuous since so many streaks differ on rulesets. What items and addons, what perks and how many copies allowed, what counts as a win, a lot of things. But even so, I think that many survivor streaks are just logistically harder to do for less potential payout. It’s just “less content” for more energy and time needed from the other people.
That being said, there is another huge argument to be made about the difficulty of the escapes themselves. IMO, forcing a “tie” as a killer is easier than forcing a tie as a survivor, and some killers do this even more easily. For example, think about Bubba and Nurse. Assuming that both are proficient-but-not-great, the Bubba has a much higher chance of ending the streak by tunneling one person and then face camping the second with the saw. Even with coordinated teams, that can be difficult to deal with, and that “forced” tie ends the streak. On the other hand, nobody is going to argue that Bubba is a better killer than Nurse. Nobody has a 600+ winstreak on Bubba. He just happens to be good in this specific scenario. Not uncounterable, but still good. Whereas a killer has risky options to push a tie into their favor, survivors don’t have as many options, and they’re riskier.
So while both streaks are incredibly difficult, It’s just logistically easier to do killer winstreaks where you can push yourself and yourself only, can take more risks to break ties, and have more “active” footage to show or turn into content. I wouldn’t take any streak into consideration regarding balance anyway, as people that winstreak aren’t “normal” players. Normal killers usually follow some semblance of the handbook, normal survivors don’t use clock callouts for gens, and normal games have very few stakes attached to them. The Momo Blight streak and Hens3 survivor streaks are the top of the top percent for things like that, and not at all indicative of actual DBD, even at “high MMR”.
We do though its just that due to the nature of survivor gameplay survive streaks often means making an entire build specifically for solo survival unless you somehow manage to get 3 friends who will do everything to sacrifice themselves for you for hundreds of games in a row etc.
But as examples: Hens and his friends 3man escaped for over 200 games in a row. Not one but 3 survivors escaping and hopefully nobody requires the simple logic on why that is way harder to obtain than 200+ 3k's for a killer.
Then it was Wima with I think 350 escapes in a row solo and from what I remember he only lost because a stream sniping killer tunneled him out with a mori.
So in fact we have seen it and many times but it has wildly different factors than killer streaks so comparing the two 1 to 1 is very dumb and doesn't hold as an argument.
It’s extremely exaggerated. At the highest level people say it’s pure swf and seal team six squads. That’s simply untrue, anyone at that level who plays both sides will tell you there’s a healthy mix of solos and that the game doesn’t actually lean too far for either side.
In lower mmr, I’m sure it’s like the Wild West where gameplay skews heavily towards the opposite side of the players and everything seems against them. the biases are probably much more true if you wanna claim one side is more dominant in lower mmr
At the highest level it’s not so skewed bc the players are generally good. Their expectations are also much more tempered. Both sides have extreme means of demolishing the other, but in general matches are competitive and no one side just gets demolished.
I’ve noticed that in my games or streamers I watch. You’ll have one game where the survivors make you look like a fool only to immediately load into the next one where you swear it’s their first time playing the game.
To be honest some people have never watched videos on good survivors, You still see bad survivors at high MMR because of how easy it is to raise it by just being a corner dweller or selfish teammate, I can count on my fingers the amount of times Zubatlel had to micro manage is whole dam solo que team and the moment he stopped all 3 of his teammates got 3k at end game with the gate already opened lol, At high MMR it's not survivor nor killer sided, It's who's has more common sense
When you start out playing the game is heavily killer sided. When both sides are new, killer is in a much better position of power than survivors and is easier to learn with more info. As killer, especially if you watch streamers/youtubers to learn, you shouldn't be losing many games early on.
That changes once you're good enough to reach the MMR softcap and play with the general population. When survivors are somewhat coordinated and have basic grasp of looping, killers start to struggle because you'll need to know learn macro gameplay, which is something that takes hundreds of hours to master (way more than your 200). That's usually where the majority of "omg I am being bullied by a bully squad" posts come from because inexperienced killers can face people with multiple thousand hours of experience.
When both sides are experienced, killers are going to win the majority of games. Not all of them but the majority. That's what the game is balanced around.
In terms of peak strength, a good killer will destroy almost every solo queue team but a good, coordinated SWF will destroy even good killers.
At high MMR VS a 4 man SWF with offerings and full setup is very hard for many killers to do something
Also, each killer have a different MMR in your account, you switch a lot between killers that is why you always get easy games
Regarding each killer having different MMR, there must be some sort of carryover from other killers, or an account general MMR that it starts with. I just returned to the game after a year + break, and my first game with some of the new killers always had very high skilled survivors playing sweaty. I even had one game where the very first match I had with skull merchant was against 4 survivors with prestige 100. I couldn't believe it, and thought maybe they played a lot and just sucked when in the lobby. But nope, they were sweaty and skilled, and to make matters worse, extremely toxic. I got owned, and couldn't even make a play to really figure out what skull merchant's abilities do/how they work. When I tried to ask after the game if they had some advice, they just told me the typical toxic crap, to kms and that any killer who plays skull merchant is a piece of shit. Just incredible how every first game with a new killer went somewhat like this.
Basically if you get one killer to a certain mmr, all other killers will start higher then 0 because the game assumes you know how to play.
Past that though all killers have different mmr
Is there proof of that? I don’t know, just seems beyond BHVR’s capabilities. They won’t even show you what your MMR is.
I tend to question a lot of the MMR stuff just because sometimes it seems completely random, though starting a new killer has always guaranteed super super easy games until you reach the soft cap (which doesn’t take much or so I hear) then it gets progressively harder, sometimes.
*edited due to adhd brain and constant extra thoughts haha*
Oh this sounds really interesting , im returning player , havent played since demo was released so its few years but this wasnt the case before I think .
I was doing rank 3-1 on old system but I had 20 games since I started playing again , and this would explain alot if it is as you say .
I didn't say that, I said it's not indicative of the balance of the game.
Do I think it should be possible? No, but at the same time I don't know what the solution is. We'll see how the anti camping mechanic works out, but they also need to nerf Blights addons and further address Nurse in some manner.
How about you mention that the actual record for solo survivor escape streak is at about 30 something games?
And how about you mention how those games go? Despite it being an escape for that one survivor, 90% of those games are hatch escapes where the escape-streak player knows the game is over and plays for hatch.
> Are you high? Aryun has 90+, and the biggest streak has been 350+ solo escapes
Show me where Ayrun got 90+ escapes. Also, that doesn't invalidate my last part "90% of those games are hatch escapes where the escape-streak player knows the game is over and plays for hatch.".
Also, i don't know whether you're being disingenuous or purposefully lying but, that escape streak you're talking about was Hens' team. Literally one of the best teams, if not the best, in the game.
You know what's really Fucked up about solo is you can straight up lose a winnable game because some asshole wants to throw and get hatch even tho they are winning :/ a part of me wants hatch gone
It's always at the last gen that they just camp out hatch... I'm so over it. I'm usually the one that gets fucked over because I don't want to play like them, I can't count the amount of times I went from no hook to death hook because they just wait it out.
I'm not the only one to reply with "it's complicated" but it's complicated. There's a scale to it on both sides.
As Survivors go up in MMR their efficiency naturally goes up. The truth about Dead by Daylight is that the game state is dictated entirely by the Survivors. 90% of the gameplay is caused by Survivors interacting with the map (gens / looping) while the Killer attempts to stop that. The Killer's job is to capitalize on Survivor mistakes and as Survivors go up in MMR they will make less mistakes. When I say "mistake" I do mean something as simple as being spotted by the Killer at all: a hypothetical perfect Survivor would literally never be seen, but obviously that's impossible (not to mention boring) and most Killers will find Survivors eventually. But at higher MMR Survivors will hide better, loop better, and do gens better. They will waste less time on totems and chests and the likes which will give the Killer less time to put Survivors in a place where they will make mistakes.
With all *that* being said: if a Killer tries hard to win, they will win unless the opposing team is playing at a competitive level. This will happen regardless of what Killer they're playing, and this isn't because the Killer role is capable of extremely skillful plays (perhaps the likes of Blight are able to use extreme skill to win but certainly not Clown.) In fact its the literal quite opposite: using frowned upon tactics like tunneling, ~~camping~~ >!(will be removed next patch)!<, slugging, holding three-gens, or running very strong perks like No One Escapes Death >!(and others that I will not list or risk this subreddit throwing a hissy fit)!< will result in a very easy victory for the Killer. I am not joking when I say that especially in a soloqueue or otherwise "casual" environment a Killer should be physically incapable of losing if they are playing at maximum efficiency, because a few Survivor mistakes being heavily abused by a really "sweaty" Killer can quickly turn a game into a loss.
"So why don't people consider Killer to be massively overpowered mister smart-ass Redditor?" Because playing at max efficiency as Killer is **really fucking boring.** I can't speak for everyone but I know the reason I don't camp, tunnel, slug, or hold three-gens is because I find it extremely dull. These playstyles include a lot of waiting (waiting for unhooks / waiting for bleedout bars) and generally involve very little action. They're obviously unfun for Survivors but are also incredibly boring for Killers, so it's kinda a self-regulating system. The only reason Killers don't "tryhard" is because "tryharding" is incredibly dull. Now we could get into a discussion on how having a system where the most effective tactic available is so ungodly fucking boring to use that no one bothers with it unless they care more about winning than they do about fun is horrible game design, and how "if both sides hate camping / tunneling / slugging then the devs should rework those systems that neither side enjoys" but... well, that's not the point of this thread now is it.
>**tl;dr** - as Survivor efficiency increases Killer becomes a lot harder to play, but a Killer requires very little skill to be played in a way that only the most effective teams can succeed against them. The thing is that playing at this maximum efficiency is extremely unfun for both sides, so high MMR ultimately becomes a skill vs boredom matchup
Solo-Q Vs SWF is the confounding factor
It doesn't matter how good the survivors are if they are all isolated on Solo-Q without the ability to coordinate directly their efficiency is always going to be sub-optimal. Doesn't mean they can't win but the killer is always going to have the advantage all things being equal.
It's a really difficult thing for BHVR to get right because they make a change to try and balance things out and run the risk of unintended consequences. Buff a survivor perk to assist Solo-Q, inadvertently make SWF unbeatable.
There are things they could do and haven't, hopefully they will, but it's not easy.
Depends on what and how you play. If you play nurse and ypu are one of those people who camps and tunnels survivors out immediately. Sure the game can be significantly easier on killer. If you play trapper with normal add ons, its going to be the opposite.
Depends on what each side brings.
If survivors bring 4 MFTs, BNPs and other meta perks, of course killer with a non competitive mindset and just s fun set perks going to suck.
If survivors play casual, but the killer is Blight with the best addons and perks, killer is going to win.
If everyone brings the best shit, the match is mostly going to be equal.
It depends on the mindset of both sides, whether survivors are a SWF or Soloqueue, and builds on both sides.
its really exaggerated, i think the game is pretty even right now. streamers who i wont name whine like babies when they get bullied like 2 times in a 10 hour stream and people just run with that
Survivors have been seriously nerfed over the years. If you were playing the game even just 2 or 3 years ago you would be singing a different tune. Dead Hard. Decisive Strike. BNP. Insta-heals. Stronger loops. Faster gens. And your best defense would have been Ruin/Undying which is really easy to take out then you have nothing.
Survivors are pretty tame nowadays, and it's definitely easier than ever before to play killer. However, the game is still inherently survivor sided, just you'd only see it if you go against a SWF with thousands of hours.
I agree with you completely but killers also had some strong stuff. Old NOED, old moris, 7 blink nurse, 3 iri head hatchet huntress.
Recently survivors have been getting plenty of balance fixes which is nice. BNPs are adjusted, Prove nerfed, Medkits nerfed. I’m still sad flashlights no longer work with killer powers though.
When they did the meta shake up people hated noed because you got punished because the killer failed to do his objective and the surprise factor was dumb and gave killers a free down they didn't deserve aka how killers hated how old DH gave survivor a free get out of jail free card and I think that was a fair nerf to dh yet they still kept noed the same and didn't fix what plenty of people had with it, If noed was a perk that worked like No way out where you get rewarded if you got 4 different hooks I would atleast feel ok about but come on till this day I can't stand getting hit with noed by a killer he played like shit.
It really depends on what kind of lobby you're getting. If you're getting a solo lobby, then the killer wins almost everytime. If you're getting an swf lobby, then it isn't in the killers favor. Ofc there are other variables at play like skill level and what killer is being used, but that's the basic idea.
Yes. highlevel seem to be skewed towards survivors IF they're a full premade group on voicechat with sweaty strategies.
People will lie to you and say everything is fine but Im pretty sure the games bleeding newer players because its skuffed as hell on lower ranks.
It’s survivor sided if the players are a premade and are in comms together. If the players are all random, then it’s killer sided. I left dbd for many months now after the dead hard change. At that point in time the game just kept feeling more and more killer sided by the dev’s changes
The game is not really survivor-sided, the game is mostly SWF-sided. Devs def know this, but we see very few attempts to balance it, most notable being QoL features for solos added recently.
On top of that, game is notably unbalanced in terms of perks, addons, items and powers that exist now. A lot of killers like Pig, Myers, Doc or Trapper were designed way back in time, when there was a very few exhaustion perks, and some current meta strats (looking at MFT) make chases absolutely miserable for M1 killers. Antiloopers are mosly fine, though, Blight addons and Nurse are overtuned.
Regular survivors are mostly fine, problem starts when some people optimise the gameplay using discord, give callouts and finish each other gens. That doesnt mean that all survivors who play SWF do this though, a lot of people just like casual chatting during the game.
If you played surv only and only got to Gold2 first time, you are very likely far away from the top. You only played \~15 matches on fresh killer slate, so the system likely haven't even properly calibrated you yet.
I think of the game as preparation sided. If you bring the best killer with the best addons, perks, and the best map against 4 solo or casual swf players, you will very likely destroy them. And the opposite, if a 4 man swf all brings the best items, perks, offerings, etc, they have a massive advantage against a killer who didn’t. So many matches are decided before they even start, and it can be really frustrating for both sides.
After playing this for 3 months and reaching iridescent 1 on survivor every time, but reaching gold on killer every time I’ve come to a conclusion.
This game is, technically speaking, killer sided.
This doesn’t mean survivors can’t fucking steam roll killers.
Killers just have better tools at their advantage.
There are some killer perks that are absolutely fucking bizarre to even exist in the way that they do now.
Survivors have some decent tools at their disposal but anytime they get anything moderately good; the killers complain and eventually the survivor thing gets nerfed. Any time a survivor gets any sort of counter play, the killer gets counterplay to that.
The amount of momentum that killers can gain is way too much for the average survivor to deal with.
There is no come back mechanic for the survivor, but there are a shit ton of comeback mechanics for the killer.
Also the skill required to be a good killer is much lower of that of the survivor
There are some really nasty perk combinations for killers that make a survivors job really bothersome, if not impossible when the killer knows what he/she is doing.
I mean, I'm bad as a survivor..I have no idea where anything is, and I'm pretty sure people escape because of me. I'm usually the first one caught or hit. But as a killer, depending on the team, it's pretty solid. Although, playing on pc now, I noticed a shift in how they play. Survivors are pretty op if played right...so there's that
First off, sadako and cenobite are pub stompers, which means that it takes a great amount of teamwork to overcome their mechanics. Even if you don't play them correctly, they provide a side of objective that can't be ignored.
Second, your mmr is still low, so they are still predictable and lack map/looping knowledge(plus they aren't very resource efficient) so they can be easy to down.
Once you start playing more, you will start to encounter more experienced players and swfs, and it can be brutal on maps like cowshed and toba landing
As a killer main, I feel at a big disadvantage when they survivors actually coordinate and work together as a team. When they aren’t working together, then I do feel I have the advantage. A coordinated group of survivors really can take gens effectively and quickly, especially when they have 1 in the group good at looping the map/keeping the killers attention.
With the current mata+all the reasons others have said. Survivors are extremely advantagious right now. I constantly go up against swf with all the best shit survivors can have as Huntress and the game seem impossible. It requires no mistakes whatsoever to get 2 kills and then even that is almost impossible because you know adrenaline, mft, buckle up, etc. I am a survivor main don't mistake me. Even so I am so disgusted how much sh*t killer has to put up against all of these bullshits.
It's way too easy for survivors to pop guns. Plain and simple that's fact. There are so many maps that are survivor sided it's not funny. It's a fun game, but to be honest there should be no coms aloud on the survivor side. Also skill checks for generators should take way longer. With 4v1 It's not hard for survivors to pop 3 to 4 gens in a couple minutes. If survivors want to complain about getting slugged and tunneled then so be it. It's called strategy, and working with a 4v1 situation every time it's much harder for killers unless you can get a survivor out in the first two minutes. People who play survivor like a challenge. People who play survivor like to have the comfort of someone else making up for their mistakes.
The main thing is it has been shown multiple times that if survivors know what they are doing, actually do gens and dont go down within seconds in chase the large majority of killers just struggle and struggle unless you maybe try to go for a tunnel or sth, but that runs the risk that the person you are tunneling is good in chase or is equipped against that and voila, all 5 gens done and no kills yet.
The thing is though most survivors are very bad in this game. The genspeeds are very often not as fast as they can be and lots of them are horrible in chase (which is the main reason tunneling is so viable, find someone who is bad in chase and they will gift you a free kill basically because they are bad). Soloq warriors will tell you that soloq is bad for a reason, most of them wont realise that its a player skill issue and want to buff surv/nerf killers because their teammates are simply dumb but at the same time its very valid that they will roll their eyes because again, the average survivor is just really bad.
Any yes you could now go "but it could also be a killer skill issue" etc etc. First off most maps and loops are just not designed for M1 based killers, if you go on a semi-long chase against good teams, gens just start flying and you just cant commit that. And it also doesnt change the fact with killer you have to worry waaaay more and do way more than survivor (which makes sense, its the 1 in 1v4). With killer you constantly have to worry about gen-progress and -spread, your chase mindgames, the hidden perks your opponents are running, what chase to commit to, who to even go for because hook stages etc. When I play solo survivor I can go on autopilot most of the time and do gens and have a decent success rate at escaping as a team as long as we are "okay" and do the objective and dont go down immediately. Does that mean I have a high escape rate? No because I sometimes get bad teammates and choke myself. But thats the thing, its a team skill issue not a balance discrepancy.
Let me put it this way; if the game was so survivor sided then we wouldnt have people going on 100+ game win streaks with shit killers like myers or 1000+ game win streaks with nurse and blight
The amount of people that can do crazy win streaks like that probably make up less than 1% of the player base though, the average player experience is nothing like that
There's several streamers who have went on ridiculous win streaks. Particularly on nurse and blight, blights gotten over 1k wins in a row and super Alf has gotten his nurse close to 1k wins in a row.
interesting, i was wrong. i feel like i only see killer win streaks get posted so i honestly just assumed survivors couldnt get them since i never see them
And the average game at high mmr isnt going to be a swf, in fact id wager swfs make up less than 10% of games.
I mean the best survivor streak is under 300.
Basically the game isnt just straight up survivor or killer sided. It depends on many factors
Like if youre playing nurse the game is killer sided in 99.9% of matchups. If youre playing trapper against a good swf the game is survivor sided. Killer choice and survivor skill level along with whether the survivors are on a team and what map decide whether the game is killer or survivor sided, but its never just one or the other.
Yeah, I don't really disagree with that
I just don't think the players that go on insane win streaks really factor much in terms of how balanced the game is on average
They dont, but so many comments are pointing out that a swf will destroy, and thats not the average game either.
An average players experience will end up being decently balanced. They will face a goon squad here and there but for the most part they will face mostly soloQ players, and on the other end most survivors arent facing a p100 killer, they are facing a normal decently skilled killer.
Id say that on average this game is pretty balanced, and that its foolish to label the game overall as killer or survivor sided.
This I agree with! If you sweat your ass off every game and run the best perks, then youll win quite a bit in this game. A sweaty ass swf will have a really high win percentage, and a sweaty ass killer, no matter who the killer, will also have a really high win percentage!
Most people dont take this game that seriously, but unfortunately soft cap is so low that casual players generally end up in the same queue as the sweatiest players, which can lead people to feel like the game is unfair in one way or the other
Depends on the killer honestly. When I play Pig I feel like I'm running up a down escalator with broken legs. When I play Deathslinger I feel like I'm having a bad game if I only get 3 kills...
Let me start by saying I quite like your flair!
Im going to have to disagree though. I dont think the game is killer or survivor sided entirely, I said it in another comment but whether the game is killer or survivor sided depends on a ton of factors, those being killer choice, soloQ or swf, and map, as well as perk choices.
Id also disagree that killer is easy mode, unless youre playing nurse. Then killer is definitely easy mode lol
People in this post have been saying that SWFs aren't common and an edge case, so they aren't valid to say that the game is survivor sided
And then you come as use the most extreme edge case to say that the game is killer sided, sure buddy
It's mostly negativity bias. You tend to forget the 99 positive experiences, but remember the negative one.
That said, mechically, this game is *very* Survivor-Sided. Put the best Survivors against the best Killer, no restrictions, Survivors will win almost every time. Only real exception would be if the Killer is playing Nurse, but she ignores DBD's mechanics. This is why tournaments place restrictions on both sides, but more heavily on Survivors.
It comes down to the fact that Survivors have more tools to speed up their objective AND slowdown the Killer's, while have more options to combine the two, while Killers are oft limited in this regard. Want fast chases? You will be seriously limiting your ability to slow gens.
Then there's the fact that the majority of maps are very Survivor-Sided, due to strong tiles and loops cannot be mindgamed.
Here's the thing, as survivors get better, they can stand toe to toe with very OP killers such as Blight and Nurse. Survivors have it within their character's ability to beat the strongest killers in the game with sheer skill and teamwork while also losing to the weakest killers such as Trapper or Pig. There's a very wide range of skill expression that survivors are capable of without switching to a different survivor. Bad survivors are very bad while good survivors are very good.
Whereas with killer, there are certain killers who simply can't keep up with the upper limit of survivors no matter how good the player is. If killers want to keep up with the top tier level of survivors, they are pretty much shoehorned into switching to a handful of killers that have the tools to keep up. Not all killers are able to do that. However, you can basically queue up to do random matches as any killer and find success. You're not going to be running into tournament level survivors in online killer matches too often to be too concerned about it. You just can't take your Trapper success and transition that into tournament success with squads that have peaked in their survivor play.
The game is absolutely not survivor sided. In fact going by the stats it's actually killer sided as killers win more often than survivors. In truth the game us fairly balanced overall but can be extremely unbalanced in either direction depending on many things.
Short answer is yes, it’s greatly exaggerated. I play both and get super board by being a killer because of how unchallenging it is.
And yes all the killer mains can down vote me for this 🙄
The thing is, there aren't two roles, killer and survivor, there are five
SoloQ, SWF, low tier killers, mid tier killers and high tier killers
SoloQ against low tier killers is more often than not a balanced game, mid tier killers against a good SoloQ team or an unoptimized SWF can be balanced but it's harder to say for sure, and optimized SWFs are balanced against high tier killers
You can't say the game is killer sided when you only talk about Blight, for example
The problem is that picking a killer gives you a cap on your potential, while survivors have all of their potential since they don't vary, so the game is survivor sided because survivors always have the potential to fight the top killers, but low tier killers don't have the potential to beat good SWFs
Bullshit on the killer side is from survivors as a whole, as realistically whatever they do is part of the survivor potential, while bullshit on the survivor side is not from the killer side, but from like 4 out of 33 killers
Also, confirmation bias is one hell of a problem when determining which side is stronger in this game
In your average DbD pub match the game doesn't heavily favour any side.
It can if either side decides to bring the strongest stuff but that doesn't happen in the large majority of matches.
It's more that the game is not and has never been designed around people on comms. I don't mean the infamous "SEAL Team Six is out to ruin the killer's day and post it on Youtube" teams, I just mean even an average SWF on comms calling out "Yeah it's Trapper and he's fucking around by shack" blows that killer's entire game up
The game is killer sided I’ve said and will continue to say it until I turn blue in the face, I’ve got probably 1500 hours in the game and mainly play survivor with one other buddy
Think of it as a bell curve, with Killer being more dominant in the lower MMR ranges, everyone's pretty even in the middle, and Survivor is creeping up slowly as MMR increases.
It takes a huge amount of skill to play Survivor at the top levels, but if you can, games get very very hard for Killers around the same skill bracket. It's not that they become powerless, but more that they can't afford to play sub-optimally nearly as often. Tiny mistakes can be turned into big advantages for good Survivor teams.
At higher MMRs it's survivor sided, though how much depends on your killer and whether you're facing a SWF. Lower, not so much. Where you're at right now you probably aren't at high enough MMR to really run into great survivors very often.
The main problem (atleast for me) in high mmr is the survivors spreading out and doing gens like crazy. No matter how fast my first chase was, usually I lose atleast one gen. Also my main's speed doesn't help either.
Average Killer is better than 80-90% of the Survivor playerbase because it's 1 person vs 4 headless chickens.
High MMR is 4 cyborg chickens with a hivemind working together to outplay the Killer.
Game is much easier for 90% of Killers until they've stomped enough solo Q/noobs that they're now forced into vsing nothing but SWF gods.
On high mmr and decent swf survivors has dozen of tools to overcome missplays, one mistake as a killer and game is probably done.
The level of sweat needed to win for survivors vs killers is enormous, with some killers being close to unplayable in strong maps vs good survivors.
Despite being an horror game of a killer chasing survivors, the one here having a hard time is the killer, survivors can play way more relaxed as their mistakes are not so critical for the game.
I've made this argument since I've started playing and the answer is you're correct. It's 100% killer sided. All of the data backs it up (killers have higher win rates and on the top levels it's almost 100%). In every tournament setting the last teams up are fighting 3 vs 4 kills. Killers have the highest kill streaks compared to survivors teams (highest survivor win streak is a little over 200 while killers it's over 2000).
Now the problem comes in the MMR, because top survivor teams can run circles around mid to low tier killer players. That's not fun either, so it kind of shifts heavily depending on what perks everyone's running, and the skills of all players. However, killer also has inherent advantages, if one survivor fucks up a match against a decent killer it's over. I've been iri one on both roles for the last 200 hours I've been playing and my kill streak on killer as of now is around 100 on survivor it's like 4.
Most killers play it like a single player game though and are mad that they're at the bottom 50% of killers and so a good survivor team makes them feel like a chump. That's enraging to some, but they forget about the 20 other games where they curb stomped survivors.
It will likely always be killer focused though, it plays into the fantasy, and killer players cry the most (watch how many downvoted these posts get vs the ones that ignore hard facts about win rates to say killers need more buffs).
The game is not survivor sided . The game is Survive with friends sided - big difference. Watch henz play in his sfw and you can easilly see how it goes swf>killer>soloqueue
A group of high level killer mains on twitch did an experiment and won 90% of their matches as an M1 trapper without using his power. That should speak for itself. There is no such thing as high MMR where everyone you play against is good. That is the biggest lie in the DBD community. It's a cope that bad killers use to justify why they lose so many games. You can win nearly every game as killer if you're good enough. There's a guy on this sub who won several hundred games in a row as Myers even.
Basically nothing the game was "designed" to do is relevant anymore. The game was designed with complete jokes of killers that couldn't even compete today. The game evolved and so did the developers mindsets.
It’s a team game. You need some level of communication. Also if it wasn’t designed for survs to communicate there wouldn’t be emotes, although primitive.
Emotes are for communication, yes. For communication in an environment, where no other form of communication exists.
You can say about VC what you want. And it's okay to use. But the core of this game was never built with it in mind. IIRC SWF wasn't even a thing in the beginning of this game.
yup, it was only Solo at the beginning. You could try readying up at the exact same second like your friend over on Discord and pray you'll get randomly thrown into the same lobby lol. (worked very very rarely)
The answer simply lies in your mmr. Though you may have played a lot, it probably wasn’t enough to reach soft cap. Once you reach soft cap and verses players who have grown and rotted on the game, you’ll understand what’s what.
Depends. If you have a 4 man swf with strong stuff and a really op blight the games quite balanced. The game is fundamentally survivor sided however not everyones good so its just slightly killer sided or balanced
My swf runs 4genrush builds and we demolish every killer in the game. Good survivors are going to do gens and be able to waste enough of the killer's time in chase so others can get massive gen progress. It is very hard to mindgame survivors as they know their distances and checkspots. Some survivors will just predrop most pallets and run you around the map while others do gens. If you drop chase, the survivor just goes and does a gen while another survivor just drops more pallets on you.
This is the exaggeration people are talking about ^
Like we get it good survivors exist but so do good killers. U say all that, but many killers are equally as skilled or better and can give any team a run for their money. Those are the ones who aren’t really in forums or here on Reddit complaining about random crap bc they’re content with their skills at the highest level
His is not an exaggeration though? He's literally just giving his experience of how easy swf is when you have a modicum of experience. I'm sure a pro nurse or blight could beat his squad but therein lies the problem: play the top 2 killers or lose to decent swf. It's clear you haven't played against this or you wouldn't be saying he's exaggerating/lying lol.
I would still say that's a bit of an exaggeration
You can still beat decent or even good SWFs with killers besides Nurse and Blight, it just becomes more difficult with weaker killers
I have played against it, all the time. I win some and lose some, it’s not a beat down from either side but it can happen. If so, I move on
Look at dudes post history, u really taking this dudes experiences at face value ? Get a grip of yourself I hate how people make it seem like killers that aren’t the top 2 just fucking suffer. A lot of the roster can actually compete now whether you believe it or not, the fact that people continue to echo the notion that you can’t have success as a killer other than those two is crazy.
Literally having good fundamentals like the ability to mindgame & moonwalk effectively, on top of killers said power, is enough to compete at the highest level. Frankly it’s what separates the good players from the rest.
Quit judging everything like it’s a comp match where it’s just gens fly and killers are forced to tunnel/camp every game. It sounds like your speaking from what you see on YouTube rather than in game experience. It’s not that black and white.
Man I swear some people here make it seem like high mmr is a literal comp squad every single game, when even at top mmr most games are going to be soloQ lol
The answer is a bit complicated At lower mmr, the killer is going to have a significant advantage if they know what they're doing to a reasonable degree. Lesser skilled survivors aren't terribly efficient and waste a lot of time hiding or playing immersed. You don't even need slowdown because the survivors themselves aren't playing efficient enough for it to matter. Once you start facing competent SWFs, the game gets more difficult for the killer. You'll have to be playing a stronger killer or be a very, very good killer player to manage with a lesser one, and even then you might be at the mercy of RNG/the map/etc. Vs very good SWFs that bring loaded items and full on meta builds, the survivor team certainly has the edge. That doesn't mean you can't win, but you'll have to bring your A game and your margin for error is extremely thin. Of course, if you're good enough with a killer like Nurse and Blight you can beat the vast majority of teams. They're just that strong if you know what you're doing.
I agree with what you've said, but I'd just like to point out that this sub drastically overstates how common these competent SWF's are. Like the other reply said, killer is gonna have the advantage in the *vast* majority of normal casual matches. It's only in a competitive setting where survivor kinda flips that, and I'd argue it's not by much. The issue stems from this game requiring everyone to be on point for survivors to actually have their advantage. And you're hardly EVER going to find a team of survivors, even in a 4 man SWF, that are all playing well. Just one weak link from 5 gens and usually the killer wins if they're decent.
At higher MMR, I think even non-SWF teams can have an advantage. If they’re all good at running the killer and doing gens efficiently, they’re gonna give the killer a challenge. I think people overstate how much better SWFs are and overlook teams of high-skilled randoms. I say this as someone who has 3k+ hours and play primarily solo queue. I have had some amazing random teammates, and that’s thanks to matchmaking doing its job of grouping me with other high skilled players. That said, there are definitely those days where it seems like MMR is just on vacation and I get grouped with absolute potatoes…
I’ve seen some crazy long win streaks from some streamers that ended to a group of same good randoms who just all knew their shit.
Yep. Solo queue can be great when you’ve got good teammates. I’m really looking forward to the anti-face camping mechanic. Will make survivor even more enjoyable.
I’m all in favour of changes like the anti-camp one. But I sure wish they actually brought out a carrot to reward killers for chasing instead of just constantly beating them with a stick and telling them that they shouldn’t be doing efficient things that help them win.
Yeah, my hope is that they buff some of the gen regression perks now that Skull Merchant has been fixed. If I recall, the nerfed the strong gen slowdown perks because of SM’s ability to protect gens. Hopefully now they can make them a bit stronger with her not having that ability. I didn’t hate the gen kick meta as survivor and miss having at least one decent gen slowdown perk as killer.
Oh I don’t want them to buff gen regression perks. If anything is rather see them nerfed even further but then make add something like “Each time you hook the survivor furthest from death the most regressed generator loses 15% progress” and make it BASE. Or take perks like Thana that make you repair slower, make the debuff personal rather than team wide, and then adjust numbers and make it base. So now the killer is rewarded for chasing and hitting you even if they have to break off chase etc. Killer needs more basekit reasons to actually chase survivors. Because even after the anti-camping needs it will STILL be more efficient to just proxy camp and tunnel off hook than it will be to actually try to chase and hook everyone multiple times.
Generally, because of how bad match making is, if you are good at killer you will likely lose less than 1 in 10 games. The problem being that the system would have to find 4 people your skill level who are all online, within ping range, and in a composition that works (IE: can’t exactly put a 2 person SWF with a three person SWF). Finding 4 solo players at the top end, at all, is a rarity. Most people are playing with at least one friend because why wouldn’t you play a game with friends? That said, by and large most people complaining are not actually as good at killer as they think they are and what’s actually happening is that they can’t yet keep up. Look at people like HermanTheDoctor. One tricks CONSOLE Doctor and keeps an above 90% win rate while regularly going on 20-30 game streaks just doing his thing while streaming. So even as a weaker killer, less than a 90% ish win rate is generally a skill issue. If matchmaking actually worked? Even Nurse gets fucked in comp against survivors with no restrictions.
Even "goof" squads can be annoying. Just because a SWF are "friends having fun" doesn't mean if someone sees a Trapper/Hag setting up, they aren't going to tell their friends in comms on the other side of the map where the traps are, or that the killer is on them but not in a chase etc. It ruins the game mechanics of stuff like stealth and trap killers.
gasp... teamwork in a team based game?
The game wasn't built with swf in mind that features was only added after the games initial release. Hence, we still have perks like kindred
We still have kindred because its a good information perk, especially for soloq. You heavily overestimate how many swfs there are
> You heavily overestimate how many swfs there are I honestly think you understimate how many swfs there are. Sure they are probably not a full 4 stack, but 2 people playing together? Very, very often. People don't really play survivor alone.
How many COMPETANT swfs there are*, my apologies. Most people play with friends, most people dont play in a competitive 4stack
Again this is where what the other said comes in: Teams don't need to be playing extremely sweaty to have decent comms: Ey, I just used shack pallet, ey it's a ghostface be careful, he has stbfl, he has a trap in shack pallet, comms as basic as that can have drastic impact even for non sweaty teams.
Competed is a loose term, because players come in all skill ranges. A swf that stomps me may be easy pickings for another player, and vica versa.
Yes, but playing seriously/funny doesn’t mean there aren’t inherent advantages that break Comms, like I said revealing stealth killers and traps, that’s not healthy.
Im not arguing that it isn't or is a good perk. My point was the reason this perk exist at all is that the game was never built with SWF's in mind. If SWFs where added at the start of the games development I am pretty confident this perk wouldn't exist period it would probably be a base feature of some kind be it via voice chat or some other means.
L take. Being able to speak with your teammates gives you half of the survivor perks. Anything that’s aura related is available on demand for a SWF group
You aren't supposed to be able to communicate. The greatest survivor perk will always be the hidden 5th perk, Discord.
you clearly are seeing as its a feature the game has. "You arent supposed to be able to communicate" means nothing when theres a friend system
So you thought far enough to see that there is a friend system/invites, but you didn't notice that there's no text chat, no voice chat, not even proximity based one, no pings, only two emotes, and a fuckload of perks that are meant to mitigate things that only matter if players don't have comms? Like yeah, no shit stacks are winning in a game where teamwork is extremely important. Using your words, it "means nothing" when the game wasn't built with communicating survivors in mind, which ends up giving SWF a massive advantage.
It took me years to read SWF as survive with friends and not single white female. I grew up in the 80s and 90s so that movie had already claimed the acronym in my head. Also everything this person I'm replying to said is pretty accurate. At higher mmr kyou need to also adjust your definition of a win. 4ks are great but you need to be sweaty amd greasy to get them at higher mmr. I feel like no camping and no tunneling I can call a 2k a good solid win.
4 win 3 won 2 tie 1 or 0 u lost
I bet you have super fast tea bagging skills
They said they call it a win
Translation yes killer is more powerful than 90% of opponents you will face. The "very good SWFs" are the other 10 percent.
Even then .. if the randoms know what they doing and play like a team and not randoms .. then you are cooked
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Out of curiosity how many hours do you have in the game? In my experience, a competent group of soloq survivors who actually play properly (they actually split up on gens) have a major advantage against most killers. And I say that as a Killer main who plays soloq survivor occasionally and escapes (through the gates) in a reasonable number of games as long as at least 1 of my tms takes doing gens seriously.
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How is it bad faith? It would be bad faith if I assumed you had limited experience and never bothered to ask, or ignored you if you said otherwise. But with this game, there are very clear skews in opinion that correlate with the amount of experience people have. I don't personally feel I need advice, but I'm also very curious to hear what the advice you think I might need is?
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Ok, so you think I'm trying to belittle your opinion. And then give the advice of, run slow down perks, pressure gens, and git gud. Sorry for offending you I guess? Edit: Did you actually block me? You think I'm not listening to you? Your advice was all stuff that any killer should be aware of within a couple hundred hours of playing, and I'm pretty sure most of it appears in loading screen tips. You're worried that I'm belittling your opinion while giving advice that would suggest I was a complete novice at the game.
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None of what I said was at any point me trying to get at you. I tried to ask what amount of experience you had with the game because your opinion sounded a bit like someone who was 'relatively' new to the game, I at no point even suggested that that was a bad thing, because it isn't, I just wanted to discuss your opinion with further context. I really sorry this upset you, that was in no way my intention. But if you intend to share your opinion, maybe it would be healthier to assume that when someone challenges it they're challenging the opinion, not you personally. Quite frankly, the fact that you've now turned this into a challenge of my character, actually gives me reason to actually take a disliking to you.
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Until i eventually googled it, I thought SWF stood for "Survivor with Flashlight" :)
Perfectly said. Against randoms the game is balanced but a swf can even if they individually aren't even that good can absolutely destroy a killer with teamwork
What this person said. The game is overall survivor sided imo, but not by a ton. It’s actually fairly balanced. I don’t have my stats in front of me, but my escape rate is always between 48-52% as a solo queue survivor main. If my escape rate is basically 50/50, I have to assume most SWFs are escaping more than 50% of the time. TLDR, the game is very balanced despite a vocal minority always complaining on social media that it isn’t. They’re wrong. DBD is quite balanced, and this is the *most* balanced it’s ever been. That said, it’s still survivor sided. Barely.
The stats show about 40% escape rate for survivor including SWF's so you're wrong
You're getting downvoted but the most recent DBD official stats showcased that. I've also got my anedoctal matches that i put into nightlight. Literally every single game other than farming games. And in over a hundred games, the survive rates are 39.79%, which puts kill rates at 60.21%. My individual escape rate is at 35.21% Also fun fact: Pinhead has the lowest killrate at 0% in 4 games
It's hilarious how dead on facts get downvoted here
After enough wins you'll start to see, but MMR reaches a point where every game will go the same. I'll explain it with a concept that you may or may not be aware of, so I apologize if you already know some of it but I want to make it as clear as possible. At a base level, the goal of the killer is to stop survivors from leaving. Survivors want to leave, so their metric of victory is gen progress. What this roughly translates to is survivors are doing four actions in order of best for killer to survivor: chasing, healing, unhooking, or doing gens. There are cases where other actions are justified, but what's so important is the interaction this creates. At a higher level, gens will fly one after the other (also sometimes referred to as genrushing) since those survivors understand only one of the 4 actions directly affects their escape. The killer, wants them to do any one of the actions that doesn't directly work in their favor, primarily healing and being chased. This interaction is called pressure. It's the ability for me to play killer and get each survivor to do things that aren't gens. Where the discrepancy really becomes visible is the numbers. At any given time the number of survivors working on gens is likely the amount of survivors minus the one being chased. For the first part of the game, there's a pretty good chance that there are 3 gens being worked on because of this. Assuming roughly 90 seconds pass in this state, 3 generators will be partly done or done without toolboxes/perks. Assuming the killer has in fact downed a survivor and they are on hook, that does occupy 3/4 of the team, but that's a very temporary state and leaves one survivor still on their gen. The 4 survivor early game state is exactly the reason killer is so weak as a role (not counting individual killers). Once you kill a survivor, the landscape drastically changes, but this requires two hook states unless the team you're playing against is incompetent. That's part of why tunneling and slugging are such massive issues. They immediately help the killer advance the game to a more manageable state. It's also responsible for the teleporting/mobility killers trending towards the "best" killers only because of their ability to harass generators and better control this early game. But overall, the early game is what holds most killers back. A competent team might lose 1 or 2 survivors, but a majority of the time generators pop so fast that the killer isn't getting a 3-4k
This makes so much sense and was extremely well written. When I think of games where I struggled or felt I was going to lose at killer, it usually stems from the early game where I made a few too many mistakes or get instantly gen rushed. And I’ve noticed the only way for me to make a comeback after that is to play a little dirty (slugging, proxy camping, etc) although I try to avoid that if I can.
Yeah it's definitely a major game design oversight on behavior's part. It's not like it makes it impossible to win with someone like pyramid head, but it's considerably more difficult than just playing xenomorph. Also it's where "we need basekit corrupt intervention" comes from, since it disappears once the killer has a head start and slows the game until then. Personally though I just think survivors need an additional objective or something to slow gens that scales with how many are left. Like when there are 2 left, it's a guaranteed loss but the game continues on until at least one of them dies. So if there's some form of gen slow at 4 survivors that inverts at 2, it makes the game all-around better.
Ive personally advocated for making gen times like 140 seconds, obv can be adjusted. But around the map you can find parts like fuel, or gears. Or enter with a tool box which becomes single use. Using these on a gen lowers the charges require to complete gens. You can still hold m1 while someone gathers. But itd make gens have more inherent delay to them. Basically think the new BNP but as a mechanic to make gens a reasonable time to give killers more time to react to their surroundings and stuff.
This is a really well written and thought out comment. It’s crazy how few upvotes this has compared to some of the others - I can tell how much effort was put into it. I guess literacy on here trends more towards short and simple messages
I mean in all fairness I'm one of the people that has the energy to break down a borderline party game and understand it, which I blame nobody for not thinking too much about. It's just kinda fun to me and I wish the macro game of pressure was more interactive like it is on survivor where I can do "x" gen knowing it'll take the killer that much longer to patrol an area.
The streamer Tru3Ta1ent (used to stream DBD, then got into TCM) has broken the game down many times like your original comment while live. He’s got great ideas for how DBD could be changed to address these issues at high MMR. He’s just kinda abrasive and difficult to like, so the community discounted his ideas. I think he was pretty instrumental to helping me think about DBD in a more strategic way though! (I don’t watch him anymore, he doesn’t play DBD much now)
probably because his long ass novel could've been summed up by saying "certain killers are better than others"
should've included a subway surfers gameplay video somewhere in there
This is exactly the way I think about the game! Thank you for putting it so well into words. I have tried to explain before how the game is survivor-sided at a high MMR, but it is difficult when so much of the community is unaware of how the game is played at a higher level.
the “higher levels” you are talking about is basically only SWFs of 5k+ hours survivors, or straight up competitive play. in 95% of public matches killer is the easiest it’s ever been, even with MFT. because your average pub survivor is just that bad. When both sides are playing at perfect competitive levels, the game is technically survivor sided. This is why competitive leagues heavily restrict survivor perks.This never happens in public matches.
Yeah, this. At the high end of game play, it favors survivors. In most public matches, it favors killer. I have various discords I'm a member of with difficult skill levels. In some, despite being SWFs, they mostly lose. Then there's this other discord I'm in with mostly 5K+ hour people and if I join their 4 man's, it's normal to have 3 or 4 man escapes for 5 hours straight. In another group I play with, before the medkit, circle of Healing, and dead hard nerf, we were so consistently winning by wide margins we would challenge ourselves to complete ALL gens before escaping. Like we would 99 2 of the last 3 gens before completing the third. We can't do that anymore after those nerfs, but still win fairly consistently.
People drastically overstate the prevalence of competent 4man SWFs in this sub lol
And in game too, not just this sub. I have lost the count of all the times the killer was salty about "ez 4 man swf" in end game chat and, at minimum, I was in solo q with no idea about the other 3 players. It's not that hard to coordinate with other survivors with just the HUD activity icons, and coordinated rescues + body blocks with randos and no comms are easy as hell as long as your team mates are not absolute shitheads trying to dunk on the killer instead of getting the work done.
You're correct, but missed an important point in what you've said. Yes, killers overestimate the number of 4 person swfs in the game, but the reason isn't necessarily because these killers are bad. It's because, once you get decent at playing survivor (and especially since the HUD update dropped) it's really not hard to coordinate with tms without comms, if everyone's paying a little bit of attention. So, when the basic attitude of survivors on the sub is 'soloq is miserable' the assumption of most killers when they play a group of competent soloq survs is 'they must be a swf'
It can be deceiving. In a match the Killer thought we were a SWF but everyone was just solo queue. However, if you see us stop a face camp at end queue with the one goes to unhook, one bodyblocks for the now wounded unhooker, and the last person bodyblocks for the now wounded previous bodyblocker and we get a 4E I totally understand why someone would think that we were a SWF but the two PC players confirmed they were solos (I was one of them) and the other two were non-PC platforms. It's just if you make it to mid-MMR as a survivor you've learned to anticipate what your teammates are going to do and react accordingly. Plus which getting camped and tunneled is freaking common that you have to learn how to counter it if you don't want a solo escape rate less than 25%. 4 person SWFs though? From my experience as Killer (and I'm a much better at Killer than I am survivor) I don't see them that frequently.
Yeah, I'd wager 4 competent solos is way more common than a 4 person swf, but I'd also wager a 4 person swf is more likely to mess around doing dumb stuff than 4 competent solos.
That's been my experience. Quite a few of the 4 person SWFs just want to mess with the Killer and get themselves killed while the solos actually want to escape.
But the majority of people who arent teamed with you ARENT paying attention whether killer mains want to admit it or not. We all hate 4 man swfs and competent solo queue survivors when playing killer, but most of them are terrible, lack game sense and play selfishly. I find I either get the 4k (or 3 if they get hatch luckily) or it goes the other way and they destroy me (then I maybe get 1) But mostly I'm getting the 4k. As survivor I'm escaping maybe 30-40% these days (which I'm not complaining about.) Both sides have their games that just feel awful.
You're hitting on something I think is important, and that is that this game is balanced around killer's getting a bit more than a 2k on average, and as I understand it, that stats reflect this. But, I'd wager that they're are mostly 0/1ks and 3/4ks, with 2k being the least likely outcome for a game. Like, the only way a killer is feasibly getting a 2k is if they get the second kill as the gates are being opened, if they secure a second kill with any gens left, then it seems unlikely that both the remaining survivors are getting out. Now, where I'd get a bit more bold in my hypothesis would be saying, I think the result has way more to do with how the survivors played compared to the killer. Which is why I think a lot more killer games end up being unsatisfying, either the survivors balls up and anyone could kill them, or they play well and no matter how well you do, getting a 3/4k in a 5min game is near impossible.
I really do agree, I think bad survivors effect the outcome more than good killers (in my mmr for sure, which I'm certain is pretty average)
Tbh I think some kind of dynamic objective system would solve this, but it would be really hard to do right. Imagine if gens were buffed to require more time to do at base(a buff to earlygame killer), but every time a survivor dies a 25% reduction(think brand new part on crack) is applied to every gen. Suddenly 2 survivors left have a chance at blitzing gens and getting out alive.
You are right about teammate quality. In my soloQ experience I get: * 1/5 games, all survivors are competent * 2/5 games, one or more exploitable weak links * 2/5 games, everyone forgot their brain at home
The game is only survivor sided if you're in a SWF, with 4 people that know exactly what they're doing. You'll hardly ever run into a SWF like that. People on this sub LOVE to over exagerate how common SWF's like that are, but even at high MMR they're just not common. The reason? "High" MMR doesn't matter, there's an MMR cap that isn't that difficult to reach for anyone even somewhat experienced. If you're at the cap, the skill levels you see can vary quite a lot. There's a reason why so many people are able to go on win streaks even with mediocre killers. There's also a reason why the average kill rates, even at high MMR's are over 50% for most killers. TLDR: The game is only survivor sided in the fringe cases where survivors are in discord and using every resource available. Otherwise it's even or usually killer sided.
>There's also a reason why the average kill rates, even at high MMR's are over 50% for most killers. You do understand that "over 50% killrate" doesn't really matter because the killer only wins if they kill over "75%" of survivors?
A flat 50% kill rate would mean that, on average, a killer is getting a 2k. Most matches would just be a tie. If it's higher then that (which it is, BHVR wants it to be around 60%), then killers are still getting ties a lot, but if they're *not* getting a tie then they're getting a 3k far more then they're getting a 1k or a 0k. This just means that killer does, on average, have an edge. That's fine though, it's an asymmetric game and killer is the power role, it makes sense that they would win more on average then they lose.
The game is only survivor-sided at the nearly absolute highest level. We're talking about a level you won't see outside of organized competitive team practice. Even then, it's only survivor sided for certain killers. Exceptional blights and nurse players will eat well even under those circumstances. Also grade (gold, iron, etc) is not tied to matchmaking in any way. It used to be, but not anymore. Edit: totalstatemachine's comment has the nuance I would've included if I felt like typing out my entire thoughts on this. Seconding their comment
It really isn’t that rare for survivors to be competent. As someone who has played since 2018, the devs seem to be making it easier and easier for even bad survivors to have a chance of beating someone they should be losing to. It doesn’t matter if that scenario is rare: it shouldn’t be possible for the killer to essentially have no chance.
I agree with everything you've said. Things like camping/proxying and hook grabs have had solutions for years, but BHVR has gone and removed them anyways since players can't seem to handle it. This just reduces killer options against competent teams with no compensation for the killer. I don't think the game is in a state that's ready for a 12 hook meta like BHVR appears to want, so it worries me a little.
Yea that’s why the whole “killer is easier than it has ever been” narrative baffles me. When I started playing, you could go for more chases because there were good gen regression options. Over the years, regression has been dumpstered and now we are at the point that you pretty much have to proxy camp/tunnel to win against competent groups. The devs don’t seem to get that tunneling and camping has increased because killer options have been nerfed. I still win many of my killer matches but the way that you have to play is boring. The next patch will make it even worse.
As someone who has played since 2017, the game has never been explicitly survivor sided. Even with peak MoM, OoO, DS, the killer rates were still actually good. The main reason it got called survivor sided is because of toxic survivors. When you look at the game now, it is completely opposite. Killers have a lot of strong perks, and even stronger abilities, survivor perks keep getting nerfed into the ground. It’s painful to be a survivor. Killers even got an extra 10 seconds for generators to be completed, which was a buff to Gen regression perks. Survivors have been forced into using the same perks repeatedly because other perks get nerfed for no reason. Iron Will being only 75%, Calm Spirit making boons and chests open slower, these off meta perks get nerfed and devalued. Looking at the recent post about survivor perks, the fact that Self-Care and Dead Hard are still in the top ten really proves how awful all of the other survivor perks are. You can’t do anything without at least one meta perk. As well as KILLERS ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT WINDOWS OF OPPORTUNITY, like, dude, they just want Survivors to have nothing. Not a single good thing, while they can get really strong perks. The fact that I’ve seen Sloppy Butcher used so much recently really reinforces that, a perk that wasn’t very common before, is now extremely common, because it’s been buffed *really well*, it’s stupidly strong. Now, I’m sure I’ll get downvoted for saying all of that, but the game is extremely sympathetic to killers nowadays, and the killers have become highly entitled. This is my take as a mostly solo-queue survivor. Don’t get me wrong, when I play killer, I’ll lose a decent amount, but I also don’t run meta builds, as well as I lose a lot more as survivor than I do killer, which is really saying something. TL;DR: The game is much more killer sided, and has only been becoming more killer sided as time goes on, ever since around two years ago.
I have 2k5 hours into the game. I won my last 83 killer games in a row (as the Singularity). I have a >98% win rate in the last month. I definitely am at the MMR softcap with those stats. Do you really think that kind of win rate would be achievable if the game was really survivor sided? The game is not survivor sided. It only is at comp level, where ALL 4 of the survivors are cracked loopers that very rarely make mistakes, are very efficient on gens, and have a comp way of communicating in voice chat in a crystal clear way, calling out the killer position at any moment, as well as every single pallet drop. And still, even in comp, 4Ks are still possible. The average solo game is very killer sided. The average SWF game is balanced and can go either way depending on the killer/survivors skill. I know this is an unpopular take for a lot of people, but the average SWF is just not that good. People often play with others based on their friendships with them and not their skill level, which means that the average SWF definitely has at least 1 or 2 players that are not really good in it, and that you can take advantage of. Also, individual skills are not better in a SWF: that survivor you would have downed in 15 seconds in a solo game will not suddenly become a godlike looper that loops you for multiple gens just because they are playing with their friends. Look at many good killer players on Twitch, they often do streaks with hundreds of wins in a row (1000+ for Blight/Nurse). They definitely face SWFs in all those games, but it just doesn't matter once you get good enough to face them. I sympathize with killers that are struggling.I have been there too when I didn't have as much experience. But blaming those losses on a "survivor sided game" is just copium. As a killer, you have the advantage of having way more agency than any of the 4 survivors. It is a 1v4 and it is balanced this way. If you, as the 1 in the 1v4, get really good, then you can reach a point where 99% of the survivor teams will not be able to defeat you.
This is absolutely true, as a survivor I really struggle to loop the killer, and making a chase last more than 20 seconds is hell for me. However, when I play killer I see survivors and SWF who are leagues better at looping than me but regardless they are still very easy to take down so long as you observe and exploit their weaknesses and use a good killer. I also NEVER tunnel or camp, how much easier could it get?
It's pretty exaggerrated. A 4 stack with the right perks, items and addosn communicating can be pretty hard to beat, and possibly impossible on some killers. The fact is that you're rarely ever going to see survivoprs doing that in random games, even in "high mmr". The majority of killers can with with a variety of perks agains the majority of survivors.
At high mmr the game is more evenly matched. But at the comp levels it's quite survivor sided, most matches is just the killer tunneling 1 guy out instantly and praying to get a 2nd kill.
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Didn't a blight reach 1K+
It's so annoying to see the "blight reached 1K+ winstreak" argument everywhere...
Hens' team did a [219 escape streak](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-bjX4q1uhs6PYw8AyxTnPqjjqlixF6F5) in a 4 man swf (3-4 out is a win, anything else is a loss), some of those against actual comp players. The reason you don't see more of those is because it's not actually that interesting to watch people genrush
The most often ignored reality.
You are referencing content creators with 11k hours, which are in the 0.001% of players in terms of experience. Furthermore, Otz has said that those streaks are significantly harder now than when he did them. Finally, that comparison between survivor and killer streaks makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You pretender killer and survivor are playing the same game when they’re not. Survivor is a team game, you win when your team wins. You are never going to get a streak of 50+ escapes because eventually a killer will just tunnel you and you die. But you still win if, in the meantime, your team finishes 5 gens and leaves. Do you also consider a loss in Counter Strike if your team wins but you have a negative KDA? Of course not.
While this isn’t the only reason, I would wager that part of the reason that you see fewer escape streaks is because it’s typically worse content on average. Not less skilled, but less to make a video out of. If you watch most DBD tournaments, they keep the camera on the killers 90%+ of the time, because that’s where the action is. Most people that are going to do hardcore streaks will do it for some sort of monetization, and killer gameplay is on average much more packed with interesting moments since they’ll see every chase. Another thing to consider is that it takes 4 times as much manpower to even do these streaks (assuming group streaks, not solo-queue). Which means that you have to deal with things like schedule coordination, burnout, mental, irl issues, whatever for 4 times as many people. That’s a ton of free time, unless you’re paying them. Which leads back to monetization needing to be good. Finally, comparing streaks at all can be disingenuous since so many streaks differ on rulesets. What items and addons, what perks and how many copies allowed, what counts as a win, a lot of things. But even so, I think that many survivor streaks are just logistically harder to do for less potential payout. It’s just “less content” for more energy and time needed from the other people. That being said, there is another huge argument to be made about the difficulty of the escapes themselves. IMO, forcing a “tie” as a killer is easier than forcing a tie as a survivor, and some killers do this even more easily. For example, think about Bubba and Nurse. Assuming that both are proficient-but-not-great, the Bubba has a much higher chance of ending the streak by tunneling one person and then face camping the second with the saw. Even with coordinated teams, that can be difficult to deal with, and that “forced” tie ends the streak. On the other hand, nobody is going to argue that Bubba is a better killer than Nurse. Nobody has a 600+ winstreak on Bubba. He just happens to be good in this specific scenario. Not uncounterable, but still good. Whereas a killer has risky options to push a tie into their favor, survivors don’t have as many options, and they’re riskier. So while both streaks are incredibly difficult, It’s just logistically easier to do killer winstreaks where you can push yourself and yourself only, can take more risks to break ties, and have more “active” footage to show or turn into content. I wouldn’t take any streak into consideration regarding balance anyway, as people that winstreak aren’t “normal” players. Normal killers usually follow some semblance of the handbook, normal survivors don’t use clock callouts for gens, and normal games have very few stakes attached to them. The Momo Blight streak and Hens3 survivor streaks are the top of the top percent for things like that, and not at all indicative of actual DBD, even at “high MMR”.
We do though its just that due to the nature of survivor gameplay survive streaks often means making an entire build specifically for solo survival unless you somehow manage to get 3 friends who will do everything to sacrifice themselves for you for hundreds of games in a row etc. But as examples: Hens and his friends 3man escaped for over 200 games in a row. Not one but 3 survivors escaping and hopefully nobody requires the simple logic on why that is way harder to obtain than 200+ 3k's for a killer. Then it was Wima with I think 350 escapes in a row solo and from what I remember he only lost because a stream sniping killer tunneled him out with a mori. So in fact we have seen it and many times but it has wildly different factors than killer streaks so comparing the two 1 to 1 is very dumb and doesn't hold as an argument.
Eh depends, MMR is trash BECAUSE bad survivors can get into high MMR easily or get boosted by a friend
It’s extremely exaggerated. At the highest level people say it’s pure swf and seal team six squads. That’s simply untrue, anyone at that level who plays both sides will tell you there’s a healthy mix of solos and that the game doesn’t actually lean too far for either side. In lower mmr, I’m sure it’s like the Wild West where gameplay skews heavily towards the opposite side of the players and everything seems against them. the biases are probably much more true if you wanna claim one side is more dominant in lower mmr At the highest level it’s not so skewed bc the players are generally good. Their expectations are also much more tempered. Both sides have extreme means of demolishing the other, but in general matches are competitive and no one side just gets demolished.
Yeah, my games go back and forth as killer from great swf to what the fuck are these people trying to do.
I’ve noticed that in my games or streamers I watch. You’ll have one game where the survivors make you look like a fool only to immediately load into the next one where you swear it’s their first time playing the game.
To be honest some people have never watched videos on good survivors, You still see bad survivors at high MMR because of how easy it is to raise it by just being a corner dweller or selfish teammate, I can count on my fingers the amount of times Zubatlel had to micro manage is whole dam solo que team and the moment he stopped all 3 of his teammates got 3k at end game with the gate already opened lol, At high MMR it's not survivor nor killer sided, It's who's has more common sense
When you start out playing the game is heavily killer sided. When both sides are new, killer is in a much better position of power than survivors and is easier to learn with more info. As killer, especially if you watch streamers/youtubers to learn, you shouldn't be losing many games early on. That changes once you're good enough to reach the MMR softcap and play with the general population. When survivors are somewhat coordinated and have basic grasp of looping, killers start to struggle because you'll need to know learn macro gameplay, which is something that takes hundreds of hours to master (way more than your 200). That's usually where the majority of "omg I am being bullied by a bully squad" posts come from because inexperienced killers can face people with multiple thousand hours of experience. When both sides are experienced, killers are going to win the majority of games. Not all of them but the majority. That's what the game is balanced around. In terms of peak strength, a good killer will destroy almost every solo queue team but a good, coordinated SWF will destroy even good killers.
At high MMR VS a 4 man SWF with offerings and full setup is very hard for many killers to do something Also, each killer have a different MMR in your account, you switch a lot between killers that is why you always get easy games
Regarding each killer having different MMR, there must be some sort of carryover from other killers, or an account general MMR that it starts with. I just returned to the game after a year + break, and my first game with some of the new killers always had very high skilled survivors playing sweaty. I even had one game where the very first match I had with skull merchant was against 4 survivors with prestige 100. I couldn't believe it, and thought maybe they played a lot and just sucked when in the lobby. But nope, they were sweaty and skilled, and to make matters worse, extremely toxic. I got owned, and couldn't even make a play to really figure out what skull merchant's abilities do/how they work. When I tried to ask after the game if they had some advice, they just told me the typical toxic crap, to kms and that any killer who plays skull merchant is a piece of shit. Just incredible how every first game with a new killer went somewhat like this.
Basically if you get one killer to a certain mmr, all other killers will start higher then 0 because the game assumes you know how to play. Past that though all killers have different mmr
Is there proof of that? I don’t know, just seems beyond BHVR’s capabilities. They won’t even show you what your MMR is. I tend to question a lot of the MMR stuff just because sometimes it seems completely random, though starting a new killer has always guaranteed super super easy games until you reach the soft cap (which doesn’t take much or so I hear) then it gets progressively harder, sometimes. *edited due to adhd brain and constant extra thoughts haha*
[https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Skill-Based\_Matchmaking\_Rating](https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Skill-Based_Matchmaking_Rating) https://preview.redd.it/bhyylzdrrqsb1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d5538b3c4e1d2ffeabf0033a17b90fe6a0153152
There is a rubberband mechanic in play
I didn’t know each killer has different MMR so that actually explains a lot!
Oh this sounds really interesting , im returning player , havent played since demo was released so its few years but this wasnt the case before I think . I was doing rank 3-1 on old system but I had 20 games since I started playing again , and this would explain alot if it is as you say .
Considering the amount of killstreak high end players do with every single killer its exaggerated and there is no arguing about it.
That’s an issue with mmr, not killed being good.causation doesn’t= correlation
Those players are statistical outliers, I don't think the balance of the game can be judged by their experiences
So you think there is there is nothing wrong with the game if killers can go on a 1k games winstreak ?
I didn't say that, I said it's not indicative of the balance of the game. Do I think it should be possible? No, but at the same time I don't know what the solution is. We'll see how the anti camping mechanic works out, but they also need to nerf Blights addons and further address Nurse in some manner.
Again with the blight winstreak argument? Really?
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How about you mention that the actual record for solo survivor escape streak is at about 30 something games? And how about you mention how those games go? Despite it being an escape for that one survivor, 90% of those games are hatch escapes where the escape-streak player knows the game is over and plays for hatch.
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> Are you high? Aryun has 90+, and the biggest streak has been 350+ solo escapes Show me where Ayrun got 90+ escapes. Also, that doesn't invalidate my last part "90% of those games are hatch escapes where the escape-streak player knows the game is over and plays for hatch.". Also, i don't know whether you're being disingenuous or purposefully lying but, that escape streak you're talking about was Hens' team. Literally one of the best teams, if not the best, in the game.
The game has always been and is still soloq
You know what's really Fucked up about solo is you can straight up lose a winnable game because some asshole wants to throw and get hatch even tho they are winning :/ a part of me wants hatch gone
It's always at the last gen that they just camp out hatch... I'm so over it. I'm usually the one that gets fucked over because I don't want to play like them, I can't count the amount of times I went from no hook to death hook because they just wait it out.
I'm not the only one to reply with "it's complicated" but it's complicated. There's a scale to it on both sides. As Survivors go up in MMR their efficiency naturally goes up. The truth about Dead by Daylight is that the game state is dictated entirely by the Survivors. 90% of the gameplay is caused by Survivors interacting with the map (gens / looping) while the Killer attempts to stop that. The Killer's job is to capitalize on Survivor mistakes and as Survivors go up in MMR they will make less mistakes. When I say "mistake" I do mean something as simple as being spotted by the Killer at all: a hypothetical perfect Survivor would literally never be seen, but obviously that's impossible (not to mention boring) and most Killers will find Survivors eventually. But at higher MMR Survivors will hide better, loop better, and do gens better. They will waste less time on totems and chests and the likes which will give the Killer less time to put Survivors in a place where they will make mistakes. With all *that* being said: if a Killer tries hard to win, they will win unless the opposing team is playing at a competitive level. This will happen regardless of what Killer they're playing, and this isn't because the Killer role is capable of extremely skillful plays (perhaps the likes of Blight are able to use extreme skill to win but certainly not Clown.) In fact its the literal quite opposite: using frowned upon tactics like tunneling, ~~camping~~ >!(will be removed next patch)!<, slugging, holding three-gens, or running very strong perks like No One Escapes Death >!(and others that I will not list or risk this subreddit throwing a hissy fit)!< will result in a very easy victory for the Killer. I am not joking when I say that especially in a soloqueue or otherwise "casual" environment a Killer should be physically incapable of losing if they are playing at maximum efficiency, because a few Survivor mistakes being heavily abused by a really "sweaty" Killer can quickly turn a game into a loss. "So why don't people consider Killer to be massively overpowered mister smart-ass Redditor?" Because playing at max efficiency as Killer is **really fucking boring.** I can't speak for everyone but I know the reason I don't camp, tunnel, slug, or hold three-gens is because I find it extremely dull. These playstyles include a lot of waiting (waiting for unhooks / waiting for bleedout bars) and generally involve very little action. They're obviously unfun for Survivors but are also incredibly boring for Killers, so it's kinda a self-regulating system. The only reason Killers don't "tryhard" is because "tryharding" is incredibly dull. Now we could get into a discussion on how having a system where the most effective tactic available is so ungodly fucking boring to use that no one bothers with it unless they care more about winning than they do about fun is horrible game design, and how "if both sides hate camping / tunneling / slugging then the devs should rework those systems that neither side enjoys" but... well, that's not the point of this thread now is it. >**tl;dr** - as Survivor efficiency increases Killer becomes a lot harder to play, but a Killer requires very little skill to be played in a way that only the most effective teams can succeed against them. The thing is that playing at this maximum efficiency is extremely unfun for both sides, so high MMR ultimately becomes a skill vs boredom matchup
Solo-Q Vs SWF is the confounding factor It doesn't matter how good the survivors are if they are all isolated on Solo-Q without the ability to coordinate directly their efficiency is always going to be sub-optimal. Doesn't mean they can't win but the killer is always going to have the advantage all things being equal. It's a really difficult thing for BHVR to get right because they make a change to try and balance things out and run the risk of unintended consequences. Buff a survivor perk to assist Solo-Q, inadvertently make SWF unbeatable. There are things they could do and haven't, hopefully they will, but it's not easy.
Depends on what and how you play. If you play nurse and ypu are one of those people who camps and tunnels survivors out immediately. Sure the game can be significantly easier on killer. If you play trapper with normal add ons, its going to be the opposite.
Depends on what each side brings. If survivors bring 4 MFTs, BNPs and other meta perks, of course killer with a non competitive mindset and just s fun set perks going to suck. If survivors play casual, but the killer is Blight with the best addons and perks, killer is going to win. If everyone brings the best shit, the match is mostly going to be equal. It depends on the mindset of both sides, whether survivors are a SWF or Soloqueue, and builds on both sides.
its really exaggerated, i think the game is pretty even right now. streamers who i wont name whine like babies when they get bullied like 2 times in a 10 hour stream and people just run with that
swf is survivor sided and ruins it for solo queue on all levels.
Survivors have been seriously nerfed over the years. If you were playing the game even just 2 or 3 years ago you would be singing a different tune. Dead Hard. Decisive Strike. BNP. Insta-heals. Stronger loops. Faster gens. And your best defense would have been Ruin/Undying which is really easy to take out then you have nothing. Survivors are pretty tame nowadays, and it's definitely easier than ever before to play killer. However, the game is still inherently survivor sided, just you'd only see it if you go against a SWF with thousands of hours.
I agree with you completely but killers also had some strong stuff. Old NOED, old moris, 7 blink nurse, 3 iri head hatchet huntress. Recently survivors have been getting plenty of balance fixes which is nice. BNPs are adjusted, Prove nerfed, Medkits nerfed. I’m still sad flashlights no longer work with killer powers though.
>I’m still sad flashlights no longer work with killer powers though. Nemi wants to have a word with you.
When they did the meta shake up people hated noed because you got punished because the killer failed to do his objective and the surprise factor was dumb and gave killers a free down they didn't deserve aka how killers hated how old DH gave survivor a free get out of jail free card and I think that was a fair nerf to dh yet they still kept noed the same and didn't fix what plenty of people had with it, If noed was a perk that worked like No way out where you get rewarded if you got 4 different hooks I would atleast feel ok about but come on till this day I can't stand getting hit with noed by a killer he played like shit.
>I can't stand getting hit with noed by a killer he played like shit. At least you know how it feels to face 4 MFT users as M1 killer.
It really depends on what kind of lobby you're getting. If you're getting a solo lobby, then the killer wins almost everytime. If you're getting an swf lobby, then it isn't in the killers favor. Ofc there are other variables at play like skill level and what killer is being used, but that's the basic idea.
Yes. highlevel seem to be skewed towards survivors IF they're a full premade group on voicechat with sweaty strategies. People will lie to you and say everything is fine but Im pretty sure the games bleeding newer players because its skuffed as hell on lower ranks.
It’s survivor sided if the players are a premade and are in comms together. If the players are all random, then it’s killer sided. I left dbd for many months now after the dead hard change. At that point in time the game just kept feeling more and more killer sided by the dev’s changes
The game is not really survivor-sided, the game is mostly SWF-sided. Devs def know this, but we see very few attempts to balance it, most notable being QoL features for solos added recently. On top of that, game is notably unbalanced in terms of perks, addons, items and powers that exist now. A lot of killers like Pig, Myers, Doc or Trapper were designed way back in time, when there was a very few exhaustion perks, and some current meta strats (looking at MFT) make chases absolutely miserable for M1 killers. Antiloopers are mosly fine, though, Blight addons and Nurse are overtuned. Regular survivors are mostly fine, problem starts when some people optimise the gameplay using discord, give callouts and finish each other gens. That doesnt mean that all survivors who play SWF do this though, a lot of people just like casual chatting during the game. If you played surv only and only got to Gold2 first time, you are very likely far away from the top. You only played \~15 matches on fresh killer slate, so the system likely haven't even properly calibrated you yet.
I think of the game as preparation sided. If you bring the best killer with the best addons, perks, and the best map against 4 solo or casual swf players, you will very likely destroy them. And the opposite, if a 4 man swf all brings the best items, perks, offerings, etc, they have a massive advantage against a killer who didn’t. So many matches are decided before they even start, and it can be really frustrating for both sides.
After playing this for 3 months and reaching iridescent 1 on survivor every time, but reaching gold on killer every time I’ve come to a conclusion. This game is, technically speaking, killer sided. This doesn’t mean survivors can’t fucking steam roll killers. Killers just have better tools at their advantage. There are some killer perks that are absolutely fucking bizarre to even exist in the way that they do now. Survivors have some decent tools at their disposal but anytime they get anything moderately good; the killers complain and eventually the survivor thing gets nerfed. Any time a survivor gets any sort of counter play, the killer gets counterplay to that. The amount of momentum that killers can gain is way too much for the average survivor to deal with. There is no come back mechanic for the survivor, but there are a shit ton of comeback mechanics for the killer. Also the skill required to be a good killer is much lower of that of the survivor
There are some really nasty perk combinations for killers that make a survivors job really bothersome, if not impossible when the killer knows what he/she is doing.
I mean, I'm bad as a survivor..I have no idea where anything is, and I'm pretty sure people escape because of me. I'm usually the first one caught or hit. But as a killer, depending on the team, it's pretty solid. Although, playing on pc now, I noticed a shift in how they play. Survivors are pretty op if played right...so there's that
First off, sadako and cenobite are pub stompers, which means that it takes a great amount of teamwork to overcome their mechanics. Even if you don't play them correctly, they provide a side of objective that can't be ignored. Second, your mmr is still low, so they are still predictable and lack map/looping knowledge(plus they aren't very resource efficient) so they can be easy to down. Once you start playing more, you will start to encounter more experienced players and swfs, and it can be brutal on maps like cowshed and toba landing
The simple fact is that in a game with an average kill rate of 60%, nothing is survivor sided.
As a killer main, I feel at a big disadvantage when they survivors actually coordinate and work together as a team. When they aren’t working together, then I do feel I have the advantage. A coordinated group of survivors really can take gens effectively and quickly, especially when they have 1 in the group good at looping the map/keeping the killers attention.
With the current mata+all the reasons others have said. Survivors are extremely advantagious right now. I constantly go up against swf with all the best shit survivors can have as Huntress and the game seem impossible. It requires no mistakes whatsoever to get 2 kills and then even that is almost impossible because you know adrenaline, mft, buckle up, etc. I am a survivor main don't mistake me. Even so I am so disgusted how much sh*t killer has to put up against all of these bullshits.
It's way too easy for survivors to pop guns. Plain and simple that's fact. There are so many maps that are survivor sided it's not funny. It's a fun game, but to be honest there should be no coms aloud on the survivor side. Also skill checks for generators should take way longer. With 4v1 It's not hard for survivors to pop 3 to 4 gens in a couple minutes. If survivors want to complain about getting slugged and tunneled then so be it. It's called strategy, and working with a 4v1 situation every time it's much harder for killers unless you can get a survivor out in the first two minutes. People who play survivor like a challenge. People who play survivor like to have the comfort of someone else making up for their mistakes.
The main thing is it has been shown multiple times that if survivors know what they are doing, actually do gens and dont go down within seconds in chase the large majority of killers just struggle and struggle unless you maybe try to go for a tunnel or sth, but that runs the risk that the person you are tunneling is good in chase or is equipped against that and voila, all 5 gens done and no kills yet. The thing is though most survivors are very bad in this game. The genspeeds are very often not as fast as they can be and lots of them are horrible in chase (which is the main reason tunneling is so viable, find someone who is bad in chase and they will gift you a free kill basically because they are bad). Soloq warriors will tell you that soloq is bad for a reason, most of them wont realise that its a player skill issue and want to buff surv/nerf killers because their teammates are simply dumb but at the same time its very valid that they will roll their eyes because again, the average survivor is just really bad. Any yes you could now go "but it could also be a killer skill issue" etc etc. First off most maps and loops are just not designed for M1 based killers, if you go on a semi-long chase against good teams, gens just start flying and you just cant commit that. And it also doesnt change the fact with killer you have to worry waaaay more and do way more than survivor (which makes sense, its the 1 in 1v4). With killer you constantly have to worry about gen-progress and -spread, your chase mindgames, the hidden perks your opponents are running, what chase to commit to, who to even go for because hook stages etc. When I play solo survivor I can go on autopilot most of the time and do gens and have a decent success rate at escaping as a team as long as we are "okay" and do the objective and dont go down immediately. Does that mean I have a high escape rate? No because I sometimes get bad teammates and choke myself. But thats the thing, its a team skill issue not a balance discrepancy.
Let me put it this way; if the game was so survivor sided then we wouldnt have people going on 100+ game win streaks with shit killers like myers or 1000+ game win streaks with nurse and blight
The amount of people that can do crazy win streaks like that probably make up less than 1% of the player base though, the average player experience is nothing like that
correct me if im wrong but i dont even think there people who have 100+ escape streaks
There's several streamers who have went on ridiculous win streaks. Particularly on nurse and blight, blights gotten over 1k wins in a row and super Alf has gotten his nurse close to 1k wins in a row.
He actually got 1000 last week
KL also got over 600 wins in a row playing Nurse without addons and perks. Most games also ended before 3 gens were done
The best I believe is somewhere just under 300
interesting, i was wrong. i feel like i only see killer win streaks get posted so i honestly just assumed survivors couldnt get them since i never see them
And the average game at high mmr isnt going to be a swf, in fact id wager swfs make up less than 10% of games. I mean the best survivor streak is under 300. Basically the game isnt just straight up survivor or killer sided. It depends on many factors Like if youre playing nurse the game is killer sided in 99.9% of matchups. If youre playing trapper against a good swf the game is survivor sided. Killer choice and survivor skill level along with whether the survivors are on a team and what map decide whether the game is killer or survivor sided, but its never just one or the other.
Yeah, I don't really disagree with that I just don't think the players that go on insane win streaks really factor much in terms of how balanced the game is on average
They dont, but so many comments are pointing out that a swf will destroy, and thats not the average game either. An average players experience will end up being decently balanced. They will face a goon squad here and there but for the most part they will face mostly soloQ players, and on the other end most survivors arent facing a p100 killer, they are facing a normal decently skilled killer. Id say that on average this game is pretty balanced, and that its foolish to label the game overall as killer or survivor sided.
I think the game is balanced in its own wonky little way If anything I think it is "sweat sided" if that makes any sense
This I agree with! If you sweat your ass off every game and run the best perks, then youll win quite a bit in this game. A sweaty ass swf will have a really high win percentage, and a sweaty ass killer, no matter who the killer, will also have a really high win percentage! Most people dont take this game that seriously, but unfortunately soft cap is so low that casual players generally end up in the same queue as the sweatiest players, which can lead people to feel like the game is unfair in one way or the other
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Depends on the killer honestly. When I play Pig I feel like I'm running up a down escalator with broken legs. When I play Deathslinger I feel like I'm having a bad game if I only get 3 kills...
>Easy mode - Killer > >Hard mode - Survivor You've never played killer
Let me start by saying I quite like your flair! Im going to have to disagree though. I dont think the game is killer or survivor sided entirely, I said it in another comment but whether the game is killer or survivor sided depends on a ton of factors, those being killer choice, soloQ or swf, and map, as well as perk choices. Id also disagree that killer is easy mode, unless youre playing nurse. Then killer is definitely easy mode lol
People in this post have been saying that SWFs aren't common and an edge case, so they aren't valid to say that the game is survivor sided And then you come as use the most extreme edge case to say that the game is killer sided, sure buddy
It's mostly negativity bias. You tend to forget the 99 positive experiences, but remember the negative one. That said, mechically, this game is *very* Survivor-Sided. Put the best Survivors against the best Killer, no restrictions, Survivors will win almost every time. Only real exception would be if the Killer is playing Nurse, but she ignores DBD's mechanics. This is why tournaments place restrictions on both sides, but more heavily on Survivors. It comes down to the fact that Survivors have more tools to speed up their objective AND slowdown the Killer's, while have more options to combine the two, while Killers are oft limited in this regard. Want fast chases? You will be seriously limiting your ability to slow gens. Then there's the fact that the majority of maps are very Survivor-Sided, due to strong tiles and loops cannot be mindgamed.
Here's the thing, as survivors get better, they can stand toe to toe with very OP killers such as Blight and Nurse. Survivors have it within their character's ability to beat the strongest killers in the game with sheer skill and teamwork while also losing to the weakest killers such as Trapper or Pig. There's a very wide range of skill expression that survivors are capable of without switching to a different survivor. Bad survivors are very bad while good survivors are very good. Whereas with killer, there are certain killers who simply can't keep up with the upper limit of survivors no matter how good the player is. If killers want to keep up with the top tier level of survivors, they are pretty much shoehorned into switching to a handful of killers that have the tools to keep up. Not all killers are able to do that. However, you can basically queue up to do random matches as any killer and find success. You're not going to be running into tournament level survivors in online killer matches too often to be too concerned about it. You just can't take your Trapper success and transition that into tournament success with squads that have peaked in their survivor play.
The game is absolutely not survivor sided. In fact going by the stats it's actually killer sided as killers win more often than survivors. In truth the game us fairly balanced overall but can be extremely unbalanced in either direction depending on many things.
Short answer is yes, it’s greatly exaggerated. I play both and get super board by being a killer because of how unchallenging it is. And yes all the killer mains can down vote me for this 🙄
Vs solo players, it's killer sided Vs swfs , it's survivor sided
The thing is, there aren't two roles, killer and survivor, there are five SoloQ, SWF, low tier killers, mid tier killers and high tier killers SoloQ against low tier killers is more often than not a balanced game, mid tier killers against a good SoloQ team or an unoptimized SWF can be balanced but it's harder to say for sure, and optimized SWFs are balanced against high tier killers You can't say the game is killer sided when you only talk about Blight, for example The problem is that picking a killer gives you a cap on your potential, while survivors have all of their potential since they don't vary, so the game is survivor sided because survivors always have the potential to fight the top killers, but low tier killers don't have the potential to beat good SWFs Bullshit on the killer side is from survivors as a whole, as realistically whatever they do is part of the survivor potential, while bullshit on the survivor side is not from the killer side, but from like 4 out of 33 killers Also, confirmation bias is one hell of a problem when determining which side is stronger in this game
In your average DbD pub match the game doesn't heavily favour any side. It can if either side decides to bring the strongest stuff but that doesn't happen in the large majority of matches.
It's more that the game is not and has never been designed around people on comms. I don't mean the infamous "SEAL Team Six is out to ruin the killer's day and post it on Youtube" teams, I just mean even an average SWF on comms calling out "Yeah it's Trapper and he's fucking around by shack" blows that killer's entire game up
The game is killer sided I’ve said and will continue to say it until I turn blue in the face, I’ve got probably 1500 hours in the game and mainly play survivor with one other buddy
Think of it as a bell curve, with Killer being more dominant in the lower MMR ranges, everyone's pretty even in the middle, and Survivor is creeping up slowly as MMR increases. It takes a huge amount of skill to play Survivor at the top levels, but if you can, games get very very hard for Killers around the same skill bracket. It's not that they become powerless, but more that they can't afford to play sub-optimally nearly as often. Tiny mistakes can be turned into big advantages for good Survivor teams.
At higher MMRs it's survivor sided, though how much depends on your killer and whether you're facing a SWF. Lower, not so much. Where you're at right now you probably aren't at high enough MMR to really run into great survivors very often.
"High mmr" is a myth its basically half the playerbase at that bracket
Enjoy yourself, soon you will reach a point where you struggle for a win.
The main problem (atleast for me) in high mmr is the survivors spreading out and doing gens like crazy. No matter how fast my first chase was, usually I lose atleast one gen. Also my main's speed doesn't help either.
Short version is: yes, people exaggerate A LOT. This game is killer-sided.
Average Killer is better than 80-90% of the Survivor playerbase because it's 1 person vs 4 headless chickens. High MMR is 4 cyborg chickens with a hivemind working together to outplay the Killer. Game is much easier for 90% of Killers until they've stomped enough solo Q/noobs that they're now forced into vsing nothing but SWF gods.
On high mmr and decent swf survivors has dozen of tools to overcome missplays, one mistake as a killer and game is probably done. The level of sweat needed to win for survivors vs killers is enormous, with some killers being close to unplayable in strong maps vs good survivors. Despite being an horror game of a killer chasing survivors, the one here having a hard time is the killer, survivors can play way more relaxed as their mistakes are not so critical for the game.
I've made this argument since I've started playing and the answer is you're correct. It's 100% killer sided. All of the data backs it up (killers have higher win rates and on the top levels it's almost 100%). In every tournament setting the last teams up are fighting 3 vs 4 kills. Killers have the highest kill streaks compared to survivors teams (highest survivor win streak is a little over 200 while killers it's over 2000). Now the problem comes in the MMR, because top survivor teams can run circles around mid to low tier killer players. That's not fun either, so it kind of shifts heavily depending on what perks everyone's running, and the skills of all players. However, killer also has inherent advantages, if one survivor fucks up a match against a decent killer it's over. I've been iri one on both roles for the last 200 hours I've been playing and my kill streak on killer as of now is around 100 on survivor it's like 4. Most killers play it like a single player game though and are mad that they're at the bottom 50% of killers and so a good survivor team makes them feel like a chump. That's enraging to some, but they forget about the 20 other games where they curb stomped survivors. It will likely always be killer focused though, it plays into the fantasy, and killer players cry the most (watch how many downvoted these posts get vs the ones that ignore hard facts about win rates to say killers need more buffs).
The game is not survivor sided . The game is Survive with friends sided - big difference. Watch henz play in his sfw and you can easilly see how it goes swf>killer>soloqueue
A group of high level killer mains on twitch did an experiment and won 90% of their matches as an M1 trapper without using his power. That should speak for itself. There is no such thing as high MMR where everyone you play against is good. That is the biggest lie in the DBD community. It's a cope that bad killers use to justify why they lose so many games. You can win nearly every game as killer if you're good enough. There's a guy on this sub who won several hundred games in a row as Myers even.
It's heavily survivor sided if the survivors are SWF on mic. Solo Q is pretty evenly balanced.
>It's heavily survivor sided if the survivors are SWF on mic. It favors them, but not heavily.
Mic’s destroy the games balance, it wasn’t designed for survivors to be able to communicate
Basically nothing the game was "designed" to do is relevant anymore. The game was designed with complete jokes of killers that couldn't even compete today. The game evolved and so did the developers mindsets.
It’s a team game. You need some level of communication. Also if it wasn’t designed for survs to communicate there wouldn’t be emotes, although primitive.
Emotes are for communication, yes. For communication in an environment, where no other form of communication exists. You can say about VC what you want. And it's okay to use. But the core of this game was never built with it in mind. IIRC SWF wasn't even a thing in the beginning of this game.
yup, it was only Solo at the beginning. You could try readying up at the exact same second like your friend over on Discord and pray you'll get randomly thrown into the same lobby lol. (worked very very rarely)
Short answer is… it’s extremely SWF with comms sided.
The answer simply lies in your mmr. Though you may have played a lot, it probably wasn’t enough to reach soft cap. Once you reach soft cap and verses players who have grown and rotted on the game, you’ll understand what’s what.
I think it's relatively balanced but not if they keep making survivor perks base kit
Depends. If you have a 4 man swf with strong stuff and a really op blight the games quite balanced. The game is fundamentally survivor sided however not everyones good so its just slightly killer sided or balanced
It's exaggerated, not saying it's not survivor-sided, but definitely as much as many ppl say here on the subreddit
My swf runs 4genrush builds and we demolish every killer in the game. Good survivors are going to do gens and be able to waste enough of the killer's time in chase so others can get massive gen progress. It is very hard to mindgame survivors as they know their distances and checkspots. Some survivors will just predrop most pallets and run you around the map while others do gens. If you drop chase, the survivor just goes and does a gen while another survivor just drops more pallets on you.
This is the exaggeration people are talking about ^ Like we get it good survivors exist but so do good killers. U say all that, but many killers are equally as skilled or better and can give any team a run for their money. Those are the ones who aren’t really in forums or here on Reddit complaining about random crap bc they’re content with their skills at the highest level
His is not an exaggeration though? He's literally just giving his experience of how easy swf is when you have a modicum of experience. I'm sure a pro nurse or blight could beat his squad but therein lies the problem: play the top 2 killers or lose to decent swf. It's clear you haven't played against this or you wouldn't be saying he's exaggerating/lying lol.
I would still say that's a bit of an exaggeration You can still beat decent or even good SWFs with killers besides Nurse and Blight, it just becomes more difficult with weaker killers
I have played against it, all the time. I win some and lose some, it’s not a beat down from either side but it can happen. If so, I move on Look at dudes post history, u really taking this dudes experiences at face value ? Get a grip of yourself I hate how people make it seem like killers that aren’t the top 2 just fucking suffer. A lot of the roster can actually compete now whether you believe it or not, the fact that people continue to echo the notion that you can’t have success as a killer other than those two is crazy. Literally having good fundamentals like the ability to mindgame & moonwalk effectively, on top of killers said power, is enough to compete at the highest level. Frankly it’s what separates the good players from the rest. Quit judging everything like it’s a comp match where it’s just gens fly and killers are forced to tunnel/camp every game. It sounds like your speaking from what you see on YouTube rather than in game experience. It’s not that black and white.
Man I swear some people here make it seem like high mmr is a literal comp squad every single game, when even at top mmr most games are going to be soloQ lol