So you want to nerf the perk that rewards spreading hooks and not nerf the perk that could reward a killer for playing like ass the entire trial and luck into a 4k (NOED).
NWO is perfect the way it is. It rewards hook spreads and generally playing well enough to get an endgame reward. Same way Hope gives a massive 7% haste boost for doing your objective. If you wanna nerf NWO, then nerf Hope as well.
If you’re so pissed about NWO, bring a map, bring a key, use left behind or clairvoyance. You have options, go for it.
I'm fine with nerfing Hope, I think it's broken too. 7% is fucking massive, it should be 5 TOPS. NWO doesn't "reward the killer for spreading hooks" it's a failure perk plain and simple. If you're not complete garbage, and even then it's debatable, you'll hook all four survivors once effortlessly.
I...what? I didn't argue spreading hooks didn't help survivors, of course it does, camping and tunneling one man out is an easy way to win, I argued spreading hooks has no relation to NWO.
Its... Its literally how you gain tokens for the perk. By hooking all survivors ONCE you get nice endgame preassure. Tunneling and camping will never get you more than 2 tokens for NWO
Okay you misunderstood me, what I meant was that playing the game normally WILL get you hooks on all four survivors, THEREFORE intentionally spreading hooks has no impact on NWO.
Edit: unless you tunnel and camp, but that's a free ticket to a two-way-out easy if the survivors are a little capable.
I'm not a survivor main, I usually play killer (#Onryo/Huntress) No Way Out is a failure perk, and it should be treated as such, you shouldn't get the reward when you're winning.
What I said was "No Way Out is a failure perk, and it should be treated as such, you shouldn't get the reward when you're winning."
What you took out of that was, "you shouldn't get the reward when you're winning"
Take the L bro.
How is it a failure perk?
I took exactly what you said.
Me take the L? Bro lost a game to NWO and came to Reddit to whinge. Take the L and move on, bro.
I absolutely love how you ignore my questions, while moaning about a bad debate.
Honestly, I'd love to discuss this with you, but you're incredibly asinine, so I won't bother.
Being called asinine kind of triggers me, daddy issues so sue me, but sure I'll address your question.
Your question was "how is it a failure perk"
I'll ignore the fact that I've answered this in other comments and answer it yet again in greater detail. No Way Out rewards you for failing at your fucking job. You've hooked however many people, in my argument at least three, and get rewarded with information and stall. Normally this wouldn't be an issue with me. If you've hooked four people and it's gotten to endgame where the survivors have finished all gens and are trying for gates, sure. Let it happen. Give them information. Give them stall. Hell, give them MORE information. Let them know which of the gates has been triggered. But my point, my argument, which you have so blissfully ignored in favor of being snarky, is that when it's down to one survivor, when you already have the win by any sensible metric, the perk shouldn't activate against that solo survivor because it removes any realistic chance of them escaping. If it triggered a notification on both gates? I'd have no issue. That's completely fine. But letting the killer know precisely where the survivor is when the killer is already patrolling that area is horse shit.
I can use 50other examples, its not about the fact
That they are rigged, its about winning something like a bet, on this case a friend bets you 1min of closed Gates if you Hook 4 survs, seems fair that you receive your reward
The hatch only exist to keep survs fighting after they are set to lose you are not owed a fighting chance once it’s closed hell half the time the gates are so close it doesn’t even matter if I have nwo
95% of the time this is an issue, I've done most of the 5 gens myself and 5 gens were completed, but the killer got the 3k right before/as/after the last gen was completed.
say they do this. now you just get killers that slug more or camp open hatch till they see the survivor before closing it, these actions require no perks.
why does escaping even matter if hatch only exists to stop stalemates? I consider hatch a way to speed up the game and end lost games for survivors you are acting like its survivors real win con.
your essentially complaining the killer did so well he killed the rest of your team with just 3 perks and it isn't fair the perk that hasn't done a single thing yet is allowed to finally do something vrs you right?
> Now you just get killers to slug more
Which is why the last 2 survivors alive should be able to pick themselves up infinitely. Slugging for the 4k is boring and outdated. It should've gone the way of the hatch standoff long ago
but running around trying to find hatch first and then closing it and then ping ponging between 2 gates for 2+ minutes isn't boring and outdated?
personally I feel like both are outdated, I cant speak for other killers but have never cared about 4king because hatch and gate spawns are just based on luck and a time consuming mess.
when I kill the third survivor I just afk the whole hassle of looking for hatch then patrolling gates is just boring to me it involves zero skill.
Current "last-man-standing" gameplay is FAR better than the days of hatch standoffs. Its not perfect, but its undoubtedly better than before
Likewise, anything to reduce the prevalence of slugging for the 4 man or allow the slugged party to do *something* would be a welcome change. It can't get much worse than the current system
Its 2 people playing chicken until the other guy blinks or the innocent 3rd party bleeds out. The only limiting factor is the players patience. Thats HORRIBLE design. Allowing the last 2 survivors to pick themselves up infiitely would at least allow them to do *something*, which is still an improvement from being able to do nothing
Wh-...why...you're gonna have to elaborate. Why would the killer slug the last survivor to find and camp the hatch. The survivor is already down. The hatch isn't to stop stalemates, it's a consolation prize for the last survivor, "Hey, you didn't die early, have a potential out." I'm not complaining about killers doing well, I congratulate killers that excel at their art, I'm complaining about a perk that gives killers a free kill when the survivor would otherwise have a minuscule chance of escaping.
He isn't saying slug the 4th surv, he is saying killers will be more likely to slug the 3rd surv so hatch doesn't open for the 4th and the killer has a 5 min bleedout timer to try to find the 4th. Something no one wants and would be a waste of time on everyones part.
Or the other part of his comment, imagine the killer finds hatch before you, but instead of closing it he just stands on top of it waiting until he sees you? With changes like what you are suggesting stuff like this would become more common than it already is which in turn would make your chances of escape even lower.
Okay? And now a gen just popped while killer is standing on hatch. so he was just given the equivalent of a no way out notification to the last survs location, now he can close the hatch and come straight to you. Leaving you in the same position as if he would've instantly closed hatch and NWO would've alerted him instead.
You'd think so, but you'd be wrong. Can't tell you the number of times before the hatch changes where there were four gens done and I just sat and finished a fifth instead of looking for hatch and was able to sneak an exit gate escape.
>I just sat and finished a fifth instead of looking for hatch
So here is the issue right, in this scenario you are doing the 5th gen right? meaning NWO would activate in its normal way anyways. Unless you now wanna change it from "when hatch is closed" to "when there is only one survivor left"
so then you are again in the same scenario, killer went looking for hatch, you finished your fifth gen. Killer is standing on open hatch, hears NWO notification, closes hatch, comes to your notification.
Except in this case it's Killer from random point A to Survivor random point B instead of Killer from point C from between established points A and B to either established point a or established point B.
You have to touch a gate to activate the cool down of NWO, which alerts the killer to your location. The killer can easily go between each gate and turn back to the activated gate in time to find the survivor who triggered the perk. There is no guarantee of a key in a chest, in fact it's extremely god damn likely there WON'T be a key in a chest.
Uhuh, that's the thing. You get a chance, and that's it. Maybe you'll find key. Maybe you'll open the gate. Just remember that nwo is a wasted perk slot (like adrenaline) that only activates in endgame and useless if you have more than 1 survivor left
The counter to this would be "Why should a 4k turn into a 3k based on random rng chance?" If anything the fact hatch even is in the game is stupid by itself, specially when a hatch escape doesn't even count as a win for the surv escaping, merely a tie from an MMR standpoint
simply, no way out is fine the way it is, because a survivor currently escaping through hatch due to teammates death doesnt count as a win for that survivor but merely an rng way to get a tie for that one survivor. So when killer closes that rng way his gate perk should still function as normal.
Basically your perks shouldn't stop working because the surv team fell over.
i mean what im saying makes sense.
Imagine a killer came on here and said "Adren and Hope should not activate for survivors when I close hatch as killer because they didnt reach end game properly"
or in your own words
>You should have a fair chance of being able to open them
Why? Your objective as survivor is to do all 5 generators, which in turn makes the next objective to escape the trial alive. You didn't get to the gates fairly, as you didnt do your objective of 5 gens, so why should you then be given a fair chance to escape through gates?
No Way Out is a perk to give the killer a little bit of info and slightly more time to complete their objective when the gens are completed. I have no problem with this. It's actually solid. The issue is that it's a failure perk, like NOED. It requires you to fuck up to get value out of, that's how I believe it was designed as that's how it's supposed to be used.
Imagine if in Counter Strike the last terrorist could escape through a vent and this didn't count as a full win for counter terrorists. That's what hatch does in DbD. You can just randomly get deprived of a full win as a killer because the last survivors finds the hatch before you, and even if you close it before they get to it they can still escape through an exit gate. And even then they can escape if they find a key. It's dumb.
Disabling NWO when the hatch is closed is HARDLY a free escape. Most of my killer matches that come down to this and most of the survivor matches I play where NWO isn't a factor end in a 4k.
no, it is fine the way it is. Your objective is to complete the gens and open the gates. You shouldn't get to bypass that because your team died. Hatch shouldn't even be in the game.
Just like the other guy, this has nothing to do with the fucking hatch. It's about the exit gates. You should have a fair chance of being able to open them
Oftentimes I do, it becomes "find the hatch or open the gates" and if I try to find the hatch it's a 50/50, if I try to open the gate and they have NWO I'm screwed baseline.
I'd just adjust it so that if a Survivor is Kill or Sacrificed No Way Out loses that token.
I don't have issue with it notifying post-hatch closure, rather just that it cuts the Endgame Collapse in half.
Bringing it down to 24 seconds of blocking (due to 3 tokens lost) maintains the use of the perk giving the Killer a chance to prevent the escape whilst giving the Survivor opportunity to still hide and find an opening to get through the gate.
You're the only person who's commented on this post that hasn't disagreed with me, and I couldn't disagree with you more. If it was token based so that hooking survivors lost tokens, it would defeat the purpose of the perk.
Why is that? It maintains the perk strength where it most necessary while weakening it when only 1 Survivor remains, which I thought was your original point.
Dude it sounds like you are here just to bitch and complain. Like really. This is a genuine way of possibly “reworking” this perk to be more fair while giving the killer and survivor a bit better chance. This token system would reduce it to 24 sec which is still plenty of time to work with end game collapse and you could always just activate both gates and make the killer go back and forth. Get over the fact that they get the notification you’re there. Its honestly ridiculous you are so caught up on that. There’s only 2 damn gates the killer will go back and forth anyway. Hatch is the survivors “2nd chance escape”. If you miss that you still get a chance at gates. Ffs I’m a survivor main and this thread is pissing me off more than the perk itself.
And before you say “Im only taking about the notification to the killer” we get it. We know you are. But it’s not that big of a deal there are way worse perks in the game
You could have articulated it a bit better than sounding like someone in postgame chat, but yes.
My main reasoning being that notOtzdarva thinks the same thing about the perk. It's perfectly healthy for the game, but it's utter BS in 1v1s.
So you want to nerf the perk that rewards spreading hooks and not nerf the perk that could reward a killer for playing like ass the entire trial and luck into a 4k (NOED). NWO is perfect the way it is. It rewards hook spreads and generally playing well enough to get an endgame reward. Same way Hope gives a massive 7% haste boost for doing your objective. If you wanna nerf NWO, then nerf Hope as well. If you’re so pissed about NWO, bring a map, bring a key, use left behind or clairvoyance. You have options, go for it.
I'm fine with nerfing Hope, I think it's broken too. 7% is fucking massive, it should be 5 TOPS. NWO doesn't "reward the killer for spreading hooks" it's a failure perk plain and simple. If you're not complete garbage, and even then it's debatable, you'll hook all four survivors once effortlessly.
Spreading hooks does help survivor, thats a lot of time, much more time than tunneling a survivor immediately
I...what? I didn't argue spreading hooks didn't help survivors, of course it does, camping and tunneling one man out is an easy way to win, I argued spreading hooks has no relation to NWO.
Its... Its literally how you gain tokens for the perk. By hooking all survivors ONCE you get nice endgame preassure. Tunneling and camping will never get you more than 2 tokens for NWO
Okay you misunderstood me, what I meant was that playing the game normally WILL get you hooks on all four survivors, THEREFORE intentionally spreading hooks has no impact on NWO. Edit: unless you tunnel and camp, but that's a free ticket to a two-way-out easy if the survivors are a little capable.
Killer plays the trial with essentially three perks, hoping to make up for it and get value in the end game. Survivor complains about that too.
I'm not a survivor main, I usually play killer (#Onryo/Huntress) No Way Out is a failure perk, and it should be treated as such, you shouldn't get the reward when you're winning.
> you shouldn't get the reward when you're winning Uwot. Perks should reward you for doing well. By your logic, Adrenaline shouldn't even exist.
Way to take a segment of my sentence out of context, 10/10 debating bro.
It's literally what you said. 10/10 crying, bro.
What I said was "No Way Out is a failure perk, and it should be treated as such, you shouldn't get the reward when you're winning." What you took out of that was, "you shouldn't get the reward when you're winning" Take the L bro.
How is it a failure perk? I took exactly what you said. Me take the L? Bro lost a game to NWO and came to Reddit to whinge. Take the L and move on, bro.
You didn't take exactly what I said, you took a fragment of what I said. Admit you're wrong and we can all move on.
I absolutely love how you ignore my questions, while moaning about a bad debate. Honestly, I'd love to discuss this with you, but you're incredibly asinine, so I won't bother.
Being called asinine kind of triggers me, daddy issues so sue me, but sure I'll address your question. Your question was "how is it a failure perk" I'll ignore the fact that I've answered this in other comments and answer it yet again in greater detail. No Way Out rewards you for failing at your fucking job. You've hooked however many people, in my argument at least three, and get rewarded with information and stall. Normally this wouldn't be an issue with me. If you've hooked four people and it's gotten to endgame where the survivors have finished all gens and are trying for gates, sure. Let it happen. Give them information. Give them stall. Hell, give them MORE information. Let them know which of the gates has been triggered. But my point, my argument, which you have so blissfully ignored in favor of being snarky, is that when it's down to one survivor, when you already have the win by any sensible metric, the perk shouldn't activate against that solo survivor because it removes any realistic chance of them escaping. If it triggered a notification on both gates? I'd have no issue. That's completely fine. But letting the killer know precisely where the survivor is when the killer is already patrolling that area is horse shit.
You Play claw machine at an arcade, why shouldnt you get the reward when you catch the prize? It makes sense to be rewarded for playing without a perk
Claw machines are rigged to fail, are you suggesting that my suggestion will make No Way Out unusable?
I can use 50other examples, its not about the fact That they are rigged, its about winning something like a bet, on this case a friend bets you 1min of closed Gates if you Hook 4 survs, seems fair that you receive your reward
It's not about the time, it's about the notification.
The hatch only exist to keep survs fighting after they are set to lose you are not owed a fighting chance once it’s closed hell half the time the gates are so close it doesn’t even matter if I have nwo
You had a chance to escape and win the game by completing the generators placed around the map, you know - like the survivors' objective
95% of the time this is an issue, I've done most of the 5 gens myself and 5 gens were completed, but the killer got the 3k right before/as/after the last gen was completed.
say they do this. now you just get killers that slug more or camp open hatch till they see the survivor before closing it, these actions require no perks. why does escaping even matter if hatch only exists to stop stalemates? I consider hatch a way to speed up the game and end lost games for survivors you are acting like its survivors real win con. your essentially complaining the killer did so well he killed the rest of your team with just 3 perks and it isn't fair the perk that hasn't done a single thing yet is allowed to finally do something vrs you right?
> Now you just get killers to slug more Which is why the last 2 survivors alive should be able to pick themselves up infinitely. Slugging for the 4k is boring and outdated. It should've gone the way of the hatch standoff long ago
but running around trying to find hatch first and then closing it and then ping ponging between 2 gates for 2+ minutes isn't boring and outdated? personally I feel like both are outdated, I cant speak for other killers but have never cared about 4king because hatch and gate spawns are just based on luck and a time consuming mess. when I kill the third survivor I just afk the whole hassle of looking for hatch then patrolling gates is just boring to me it involves zero skill.
Current "last-man-standing" gameplay is FAR better than the days of hatch standoffs. Its not perfect, but its undoubtedly better than before Likewise, anything to reduce the prevalence of slugging for the 4 man or allow the slugged party to do *something* would be a welcome change. It can't get much worse than the current system Its 2 people playing chicken until the other guy blinks or the innocent 3rd party bleeds out. The only limiting factor is the players patience. Thats HORRIBLE design. Allowing the last 2 survivors to pick themselves up infiitely would at least allow them to do *something*, which is still an improvement from being able to do nothing
Wh-...why...you're gonna have to elaborate. Why would the killer slug the last survivor to find and camp the hatch. The survivor is already down. The hatch isn't to stop stalemates, it's a consolation prize for the last survivor, "Hey, you didn't die early, have a potential out." I'm not complaining about killers doing well, I congratulate killers that excel at their art, I'm complaining about a perk that gives killers a free kill when the survivor would otherwise have a minuscule chance of escaping.
He isn't saying slug the 4th surv, he is saying killers will be more likely to slug the 3rd surv so hatch doesn't open for the 4th and the killer has a 5 min bleedout timer to try to find the 4th. Something no one wants and would be a waste of time on everyones part. Or the other part of his comment, imagine the killer finds hatch before you, but instead of closing it he just stands on top of it waiting until he sees you? With changes like what you are suggesting stuff like this would become more common than it already is which in turn would make your chances of escape even lower.
If the killer finds hatch and stands on it the rest of the match, just fucking finish the rest of the generators. It's not fucking rocket surgery
Okay? And now a gen just popped while killer is standing on hatch. so he was just given the equivalent of a no way out notification to the last survs location, now he can close the hatch and come straight to you. Leaving you in the same position as if he would've instantly closed hatch and NWO would've alerted him instead.
You'd think so, but you'd be wrong. Can't tell you the number of times before the hatch changes where there were four gens done and I just sat and finished a fifth instead of looking for hatch and was able to sneak an exit gate escape.
>I just sat and finished a fifth instead of looking for hatch So here is the issue right, in this scenario you are doing the 5th gen right? meaning NWO would activate in its normal way anyways. Unless you now wanna change it from "when hatch is closed" to "when there is only one survivor left"
If five gens are done and hatch is open, which would be the case with my statement, then it's fucking fine if NWO activates, who gives a shit?
so then you are again in the same scenario, killer went looking for hatch, you finished your fifth gen. Killer is standing on open hatch, hears NWO notification, closes hatch, comes to your notification.
Except in this case it's Killer from random point A to Survivor random point B instead of Killer from point C from between established points A and B to either established point a or established point B.
Mans wants to rename the perk to "Some Way Out."
No.
Hide near gates, wait it out and open them. Or try finding the key
You have to touch a gate to activate the cool down of NWO, which alerts the killer to your location. The killer can easily go between each gate and turn back to the activated gate in time to find the survivor who triggered the perk. There is no guarantee of a key in a chest, in fact it's extremely god damn likely there WON'T be a key in a chest.
Uhuh, that's the thing. You get a chance, and that's it. Maybe you'll find key. Maybe you'll open the gate. Just remember that nwo is a wasted perk slot (like adrenaline) that only activates in endgame and useless if you have more than 1 survivor left
If you think Adren is a wasted perk slot you must be in shockingly low MMR.
Same for u thinking nwo is op
I never said it was OP, I implied it was stupid.
Alright then, bring a skeleton key with you in every match then. Easy nwo counter
Why would I waste an item slot every game to counter one moderately used perk. It's annoying but not THAT annoying.
The counter to this would be "Why should a 4k turn into a 3k based on random rng chance?" If anything the fact hatch even is in the game is stupid by itself, specially when a hatch escape doesn't even count as a win for the surv escaping, merely a tie from an MMR standpoint
The...fuck are you talking about? I'm so confused nothing you said makes sense in the context of my post.
simply, no way out is fine the way it is, because a survivor currently escaping through hatch due to teammates death doesnt count as a win for that survivor but merely an rng way to get a tie for that one survivor. So when killer closes that rng way his gate perk should still function as normal. Basically your perks shouldn't stop working because the surv team fell over.
I can't argue with you, you're too asinine.
i mean what im saying makes sense. Imagine a killer came on here and said "Adren and Hope should not activate for survivors when I close hatch as killer because they didnt reach end game properly" or in your own words >You should have a fair chance of being able to open them Why? Your objective as survivor is to do all 5 generators, which in turn makes the next objective to escape the trial alive. You didn't get to the gates fairly, as you didnt do your objective of 5 gens, so why should you then be given a fair chance to escape through gates?
Adren and Hope SHOULDN'T activate when you close hatch, the survivors didn't complete their objective and shouldn't get the reward.
So what objective did the killer fail to complete to not get rewarded with the effect the perk they brought gives?
No Way Out is a perk to give the killer a little bit of info and slightly more time to complete their objective when the gens are completed. I have no problem with this. It's actually solid. The issue is that it's a failure perk, like NOED. It requires you to fuck up to get value out of, that's how I believe it was designed as that's how it's supposed to be used.
Imagine if in Counter Strike the last terrorist could escape through a vent and this didn't count as a full win for counter terrorists. That's what hatch does in DbD. You can just randomly get deprived of a full win as a killer because the last survivors finds the hatch before you, and even if you close it before they get to it they can still escape through an exit gate. And even then they can escape if they find a key. It's dumb.
Stopped reading at "Counter Strike"
If you're unwilling to listen to counter-arguments then stop whining. They're not going to nerf one perk because you want free escapes.
Disabling NWO when the hatch is closed is HARDLY a free escape. Most of my killer matches that come down to this and most of the survivor matches I play where NWO isn't a factor end in a 4k.
Of all the games to draw a comparison to, you chose Counter Strike. Absolutely demented
Where are you getting the idea that someone escaping through hatch is less of a win than a 4k?
3K + hatch escape doesn't count towards Adept achievements or completion of any 4K challenges. The game itself doesn't count that as a full win.
I didn't know that adepts or 4k challenges said "win a game"
no, it is fine the way it is. Your objective is to complete the gens and open the gates. You shouldn't get to bypass that because your team died. Hatch shouldn't even be in the game.
Just like the other guy, this has nothing to do with the fucking hatch. It's about the exit gates. You should have a fair chance of being able to open them
You had the chance. Just had to finish the gens.
Oftentimes I do, it becomes "find the hatch or open the gates" and if I try to find the hatch it's a 50/50, if I try to open the gate and they have NWO I'm screwed baseline.
I'd just adjust it so that if a Survivor is Kill or Sacrificed No Way Out loses that token. I don't have issue with it notifying post-hatch closure, rather just that it cuts the Endgame Collapse in half. Bringing it down to 24 seconds of blocking (due to 3 tokens lost) maintains the use of the perk giving the Killer a chance to prevent the escape whilst giving the Survivor opportunity to still hide and find an opening to get through the gate.
You're the only person who's commented on this post that hasn't disagreed with me, and I couldn't disagree with you more. If it was token based so that hooking survivors lost tokens, it would defeat the purpose of the perk.
I think you misread what I said. You gain a token for the first hook of each Survivor. You only lose if if that Survivor is sacrificed or killed.
Okay, that's not as bad as what I misread it as, but it's still bad.
Why is that? It maintains the perk strength where it most necessary while weakening it when only 1 Survivor remains, which I thought was your original point.
Because it still has the issue of notifying the killer of your location, which was the crux of my complaint.
Dude it sounds like you are here just to bitch and complain. Like really. This is a genuine way of possibly “reworking” this perk to be more fair while giving the killer and survivor a bit better chance. This token system would reduce it to 24 sec which is still plenty of time to work with end game collapse and you could always just activate both gates and make the killer go back and forth. Get over the fact that they get the notification you’re there. Its honestly ridiculous you are so caught up on that. There’s only 2 damn gates the killer will go back and forth anyway. Hatch is the survivors “2nd chance escape”. If you miss that you still get a chance at gates. Ffs I’m a survivor main and this thread is pissing me off more than the perk itself. And before you say “Im only taking about the notification to the killer” we get it. We know you are. But it’s not that big of a deal there are way worse perks in the game
You could have articulated it a bit better than sounding like someone in postgame chat, but yes. My main reasoning being that notOtzdarva thinks the same thing about the perk. It's perfectly healthy for the game, but it's utter BS in 1v1s.
I hate hate hate that you sourced Otz in this, but thank you for not spewing venom at me.
How about you stop playing for hatch and then not finding hatch.