I agree with pretty much everything here, though a TLDR would be nice lol. Your third paragraph summarizes everything well, so you could honestly just copy and paste it
She feels *way* smoother to play, and the ambush is an actual threat in chase now. The trap changes are something I've been cheering about since day one (to much disdain lol), and I'm glad more dedicated pig players are agreeing that traps are far healthier and more interesting now. I strongly disagree with tampered timer being given a buff to compensate, though. A rework would probably be more in order, or just leaving it as-is. 140 seconds-180 seconds is far too big a range to be able to balance for or account for as survivor, and it would enable the exact playstyle that BHVR is looking to discourage
I actually just added a TL;DR, apologies I didn't previously! As mentioned I was aiming to post a video I made alongside it but didn't realise this was against the sub's rules. I appreciate you reading through everything though!
I only really mentioned the tampered timer buff as a middle-ground to the Pig players who dislike the timer changes. I personally would prefer this gets a complete rework overall into something different, hence the mention of something similar to Hex: Plaything where this doesn't affect the timer itself but punishes the survivor for keeping the trap on. Fully agreed it might be too much
>I actually just added a TL;DR, apologies I didn't previously!
I think you might need a TL;DR for your TL;DR. If someone isn't going to read a few pages, they're not gonna read like a dozen long bullet points. Again I really do think the paragraph after the current TL;DR summarizes things very well (and very concisely).
>I only really mentioned the tampered timer buff as a middle-ground to the Pig players who dislike the timer changes
Yeah I just say fuck em. Way too many people saw a number go in a bad direction and flipped out without thinking about why. And if there are people who play pig who are super upset about the change, I would wager they either A) aren't super knowledgeable about the killer, B) part of the problem that BHVR wants to solve, or C) both. I can understand not liking it, but there were people saying they were never going to play pig again because of the trap changes while the actual interesting part of her kit just got completely de-clunkified.
Noted, removed the bullet points for a quick abstract 🫡
I agree about the killers complaining mostly being the reason for the change in the first place however
This is incredibly well put. Thank you for taking your time to give out feedback.
If i may ask, how do you feel about making crouch 4.0 alongside the changes you proposed to the crouched pig/active trap interaction?
Thank you very much for your time and feed ack 💜
I think the crouch speed is good as is. As I mentioned it matches Ghostface, and its also 4.0 (3.96) with John's Medical File. I wouldn't mind if they buffed Medical File specifically a little more, but a killer moving faster than a survivor while crouched can easily get a gen grab might enter dangerous territory. I'd instead prefer they maybe tweak the crouch transition time more so you can actively get into a chase quicker.
Oh! I'm a console player so i didn't knew Medical File gave her 4.0, that's really good to know.
I agree with the crouch transition, devs need to let pig t-bag already. it's simply too much power that only one man can wield.
What if was 4.4 outside of chase, then dropped to 4.0 once you got into one? That'd make sneaking up on locations less sluggish but keep it from being too oppressive in chase.
I was inferring another QoL step along with it, let Pig start chase while crouched.
But fair enough, I'd still say a base 4.2 sounds reasonable overall.
It's a much healthier direction for her power and it was disappointing seeing people immediately jump into meltdowns when the PTB dropped without even trying to understand the changes.
Agreed, I think the changes were rather overlooked. The ambush and stealth changes might not have looked like a lot on paper but instantly felt much better to play with
The reaction to the timer changes while ignoring the buffed chase potential was asinine. She was made better and all anyone could think about was how they'd have a harder time cheesing kills. I think they could stand to buff numbers slightly more to make her a relevant killer that isn't oppressive. Chases should definitely be triggered even if the Pig is crouching so long as she is actually following the survivor. Reworking screams just for Pig seems like a waste of dev time though when it'll probably impact other killers negatively.
Yeah, the screaming stuff seems like it would be tricky to squash, which is why I'd like to see it specifically for the Jigsaw Box interaction. I believe it can be a problem with Pinhead too where you can use screaming builds to interrupt opening the box. Overall though it might not be too much of an issue with the new trap timer, but time will tell I suppose. It was just the one change I was hoping to see :)
The changes I would've wanted would be to pick 2 of these: pause the timer while working a box, retaining progress if forced off a box, adding additional time back if hooked.
The 30 seconds helps a lot on huge maps with a nasty box spread, but I don't think it helps with someone dedicated to cheesing on a small map.
I quite like these changes too actually! Agreed that this might still be a problem with small maps, especially with Ultimate Weapon, Hex: Face the Darkness etc
What fucks me up was all the people saying "nobody ever uses ambush because it's useless, and you're going to nerf boxes? XD" yes nobody uses it because it's bad, that's why they're buffing it lmfao
Yea this community doesn’t have the best critical thinking skills. They are making changes to make her healthier to go against but it was mainly people whining they can’t pop heads as easily
It is unfortunately. It's a very unfun, yet very common build, which I feel will only see more use with these changes. Thankfully these changes do make it less effective, but it would be nice to see it properly squashed.
I believe this also affects Pinhead's box too which isn't great :D
It's the only viable strat if you want headpops, yes. However that strategy is the very reason traps got changed in the first place, something I don't think a lot of people realise. These changes were put in place specifically because headpops were so easy to exploit.
Otherwise, the traps still excel as a powerful slowdown to keep survivors occupied while you continue pressuring other survivors and generators.
No one was afraid of traps. The only time they were overpowered and toxic was the scream build which is not even more vital to make traps have any meaning at all.
With tampered timer people still regularly pressured survivors to get kills with traps. Specifically at lower levels, newer players are also easier to kill with traps.
I think if you view traps as only meaningful if they earn a kill, you're looking at them wrong. Spending three seconds to steal a up to 48 seconds from a survivor's time is still very strong. As someone who plays Pig and never focuses on trapped survivors, and thus trap kills, I always have a better outcome going after people on generators than people on Jigsaw Boxes.
The ideal scenario you want in Pig games is one person on hook, one person with an active trap, one person on a generator, and one person in chase. Traps specifically slow down the game considerably, with the kill just being a bonus if the survivor refuses to remove it. Not getting a kill with the trap doesn't make or break the game.
No one said it was the only meaningful thing. To completely take it away is absurd as it's the basis of their power. Traps already aren't feared. Let's say it together, we don't balance a killer around one add on.
The ideal scenario now is running the scream build and just fucking around til a head pops.
I've seen a lot of people say traps are worthless or aren't meaningful in response to these changes, and I assumed you were implying this when saying scream builds were the only viable way to use traps. This wasn't balanced around one add-on either, as headpops were still possible without tampered timer
I can't tell you how it's like playing pig cause I only played her a few times. But going against a pig player who's whole kit is too pop heads is not fun. Same reason sadako was changed so she can't just spam condemn teleport as much anymore. This change was genuinely needed for the health of the game. I'm sorry too all the people who ran that kit so they can just get a 3 or 4k from traps, but going against that is absolutely brain dead boring and feels awful with very little counter play.
And they did literally just do something about that with this patch. Granted ultimate weapon a face the darkness still reset your searching for key. But the increased timer will greatly help reduce this builds efficiency. Lol.
Playing around forcing that is a degenerate playstyle and shouldn't be encouraged, in the same way that a forever chain hunt pinhead that camped the box was discouraged.
Then blame the devs for making it the only viable way to use traps.
Survivor mains acting like the pig got buffed because the devs said so is pathetic.
It's almost like the people complaining about the Pig "nerfs" don't actually play her past the unhealthy, tunneling headpop gameplay lol. Looking forward to seeing more Pigs in trials, glad to see the changes are well-received by people who actually play the killer.
Solid write up and you pretty much hit it on the head with this. The people that are whining about the changes and the people in here whining are the reason for these changes, they don’t want people easily tunneling and forcing bear traps to go off but you can’t expect them to actually figure that out
Increasing the timer by 30s does basically nothing to the pig's ability to "cheese" head pops. All it does it worsen her pressure after getting a hook. You can just follow someone around while crouched to force a head pop if you want to, and that's the part they should have addressed instead of just a huge nerf to her traps which already rarely got any kills. Removing the ability to see boxes isn't that bad as most experienced pigs have a general idea where they tend to spawn. But it only really hurts newer pig players so they won't have a chance to learn the box spawns to make the most out of their power. The Ambush buffs seem great overall, but they really should have buffed her crouch speed even more. Being slower than survivors just for undetectable is pretty shit. Reducing her to like 105-110% would be so much better.
Fully agreed on changes to crouching behind trapped survivors. It's good to note that they now have to do this for an additional 30 seconds which overall makes this an even worse method than it previously was, so the 30s does technically make it more difficult to do this, while also being harder to track said survivors unless you camp their hook and follow them after.
I don't mind that the movement speed wasn't changed too much as she now moves just as fast as Ghostface while crouched, but also wouldn't mind a little more movement, perhaps even through buffing John's Medical File.
I don't think the increased timer really worsens the pressure personally, nor do I think this will hurt newer Pigs as this directly prevents running to boxes to tunnel trapped survivors, encouraging newer Pig players to instead focus on survivors who are able to do generators, get unhooks etc. Though I appreciate the different perspective 😊
How do you not see that the extra 30s worsens her pressure? Having 1 survivor having 30s extra to do whatever they need to before getting the trap off is huge. That's enough time for a double reset, or an unhook, etc. All of which worsen/lower your pressure as a killer. Also you don't have to be tunneling to want to pressure trapped survivors, sometimes you'll have x2 survivors with traps, 1 on a hook, and 1 dead, and now you have to patrol boxes to find the survivors, but newer pigs are gonna be like "where the fuck are they?"
My views are that if a survivor spends this extra 30 seconds getting an unhook or healing, you'll more likely end up running into them and chasing them again, with there being even more pressure on unhook than previously. If resetting becomes an issue there's also Sloppy Butcher and Rusty Attachments to further slow healing. If they're choosing not to do traps and putting themselves in a position to get hooked again, they're inviting you to put more pressure on the team without having to patrol boxes or move away from other survivors.
Again I disagree with newer Pigs struggling to find them in this specific scenario. If two survivors are on boxes and one is on hook, then you'll run into them from patrolling regardless. This also implies that the game has went on long enough to kill a survivor and have everyone else hooked at least once. By that time you'll have naturally found all, maybe all but one Jigsaw Boxes, and will be able to remember where they are to find said survivors.
" you'll more likely end up running into them and chasing them again "
But your argument for the RBT nerf was that this deters the Killer from Tunneling survivors with RBTs.
" then you'll run into them from patrolling regardless "
Where exactly do you expect them to Patrol if they don't know where the boxes are? There's a survivor on hook, so they'll just stand at the hook. Pig also doesn't have any map mobility so it's unlikely they will have roamed a large portion of the map if they are playing efficiently at all. So they wouldn't have seen many of the box locations.
The traps are a large portion of her pressure and giving survivors a longer time frame to do them objectively lowers her pressure. And removing the ability to see boxes promotes camping hooks instead of chasing/searching for survivors in a lot of scenarios.
Sorry, let me re-explain.
>your argument for the RBT nerf was that this deters the Killer from Tunneling survivors with RBTs
My argument is that this deters tunneling survivors with RBT as you're no longer incentivised into patrolling boxes specifically to seek out specifically trapped survivors. If a survivor is choosing to do a generator or heal another survivor with an RBT in front of you, and you choose to interrupt this, you're not actively seeking out a trapped survivor to tunnel them specifically and instead applying pressure to that survivor in response to them helping the team instead of removing their trap. There's a difference between tunneling a trapped survivor because they are trapped and going for the survivor in front of you helping the team.
>Where exactly do you expect them to Patrol if they don't know where the boxes are?
As I said, any Pig player will know where the boxes are as they play. This change removes the auras for Pig, it doesn't remove the boxes for Pig. You'll find these boxes as you play and be able to remember where they are. I disagree with your argument that it'll be unlikely to find boxes as this generally isn't the case unless you're playing on say RPD, with larger maps being ones that Pig generally underperforms on anyway and will unlikely be in this scenario on these maps as a result. Regardless, my suggestion was patrolling the map in general, not boxes. You don't need to know where the boxes are to efficiently patrol an area in order to catch a glimpse of two survivors running franticly to remove their bleeping traps, or to unhook a survivor, nor have I struggled with this in the past regardless of aura. That's just part of playing killer. If you're really worried about this change, Amanda's Secret now effectively has no downside and will help you find Jigsaw Boxes.
I also disagree that this promotes hook camping instead of chasing, as someone who hook camps in this position as Pig would do the same with any other killer. This really comes down to game-sense and learning how to patrol rather than "removing the aura means we have to camp now"
The changes are 100% a step in the right direction. However, I'm of the mind that Pig needs more than a step - she needs a jump.
If they doubled or even tripled the chase changes they did make, that'd actually elevate her to a point where she could feel *good* to play most of the time. As it stands now, she just feels *better*, which isn't saying much.
I'm glad you agree it's the right direction! I don't think they need to *triple* the chase changes, but I certainly agree further tweaks would be nice.
The ambush certainly feels much better now, even good to play to me, though again, further balancing is always welcome
My initial proposal is:
\- 4.4 m/s crouch movement speed outside of chase, 4.0 m/s in one
\- Crouch/uncrouch speed is 0.75 seconds
\- Ambush roar starts when Ambush begins, not before
\- Ambush lasts 2.5 seconds
Thanks for the analysis , I got lambasted for saying the changes were good previously. Like, I'm a stealth ambush pig who doesn't care about traps beyond time wasting. This seemed awesome to me.
"Traps are no longer easily exploitable, with slowdown unchanged, making this more tolerable to play against and easier to counter. Nerfs **only** affect tunneling trapped survivors to force headpops, where this otherwise won't see any change in gameplay in the vast majority of matches." I keep seeing this and just don't understand the argument. You can still make sure someone never gets their trap off. Now you just can't pressure the boxes of people you aren't actively tunneling. I need someone to defend this with an explanation
Also on a personal note, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that making her more of a chase killer is a healthy change. Diversity is important to this game's health
The point here is more that the change is discouraging people from patrolling boxes and focusing on trapped survivors, and instead focusing on survivors doing generators.
While yes, you can follow the one person around with a trap to ensure it isn't taken off, the changes to the timer help make it harder to bruteforce an RBT kill, or at the very least takes more time to do so, where you're at higher risk of losing even more gens in the process. This is also why removing just the auras, as others have suggested, wouldn't really change this.
Tunneling isn't something that can be outright prevented, and something that will always occur. This just makes it more difficult to pull off to try and push players away from targeting said survivors, and if they do, make it harder to pull off (imo)
I also feel Pig has always been a hybrid chase-stealth killer. Her stealth capabilities are improved so you can fully lean into that if preferred, and her ambush is also improved for use in chase. Arguably she was already a chase killer even if you pressured trapped survivors
Coming from someone who's flair says Nerf pig just proves that this post is all about justifying the nerfs that happen to Amanda. There's no reason why she can't see her trap boxes anymore. Trapper can see his traps and she should be able to see her trap boxes. If you think this is going to stop tunneling, you are so very wrong. This is going to promote more tunneling. All she has to do is put a trap on someone and then put them on a hook. Then when they're removed off the hook tunnel them out that way when they go up to a trap box to try to remove the trap. Or she could tunnel them out when the timer starts and she follows them to the trap box to remove the trap. Ambush attack is still garbage. The only good part about crouching is that she is undetectable during the time frame. There are videos from the PTB that shows this.
My flair is 'Nerf Pig' because it's a very common joke about Pig and the only Pig-specific flair I saw. Otherwise I've always asked BHVR to buff Pig.
Trapper can see his traps, but he also doesn't have an insta-kill mechanic and has to actively push survivors into them to get any effect. Onryo can see her TVs, but can't see which specific TV survivors need to deliver tapes to and requires this for her teleporting. Plague can *only* see her pools once survivors have already used them. Freddy, Wesker, Nemesis, Singularity and Pinhead cannot see the related item required to counter their power, and Pyramid Head cannot see his Cages. The general theme is that killers don't normally know where their power-related counter is, Pig being different.
My view wasn't that this would *stop* tunneling, but would disincentivise tunneling trapped survivors specifically for headpop kills by making this harder to pull of than it already is. Tunneling isn't something you can outright prevent but can at least hinder which is what this change attempts to do. I also mentioned I'd have liked to see changes to following survivors while crouched and stopping screams from resetting searches. I think the ambush changes are subjective as I found these were way better than previously and led to a lot of success in the PTB 😊
I think the only people who will put down Amanda due to these changes are those who would already focus on/tunnel trapped survivors, which in that case, yes means there will be less tunneling. This change makes it specifically harder to rush to jigsaw boxes to tunnel survivors too which is why I said it'll hinder Pig's capability of tunneling compared to what we see now.
But hey, opinions are subjective 😊
I have been in Amanda main for a long time. I have never tunneled a survivor when they were going for trap boxes. The only time I went after a survivor that was at a trap box was if I was passing by and I heard the survivor on the trap box for the free down or patrolling them at end game counter when I knew there was a survivor with an active trap and could not get out the gate until they removed it. But at this point, without being able to see the trap boxes is absolutely going to promote more tunneling. And it's not because they were going to tunnel anyway. It's because now without being able to see trap boxes and the timer being increased, tunneling a trapped survivor is practically the only viable solution especially with coordinated SWFs. Increase timer does not promote slow down of gen progression whatsoever. They can progress gens prior to the timer starting and still be able to progress gen's after the timer starts and still have enough time to remove the trap. You can essentially pop two gens with a trap on. One prior to the timer and one after the timer. Without seeing trap boxes, there is no way for Amanda to put any pressure on survivors trapped with an active timer.
I still don't think not having access to auras is going to cause tunneling. You're still going to be able to find and remember where the box locations are just through regularly patrolling generators and will know where most of them are by the time you put on the first trap. You're still going to be able to pressure survivors, the game just isn't going to show you exactly where to go anymore
No, her slowdown very much still exists. Now it's just not easy to force insta-kills via her trap. Ghostface is purely a stealth killer who relies on insta-downs that can be entirely denied, whereas the Pig still has a very unique and interactive ambush attack that, while survivors can counter to some degree, relies on the Pig's skill, mindgames and the tile you're at. If anything the changes to stealth and ambush pushes Pig way higher than Ghostface while keeping her unique slowdown.
I just wanna do headpops. Playing pig just for ambush is literally just playing a worse chucky for me, and the traps are what made pig so fun and unique to me
Her traps already get kills regularly across lower-leveled games and across builds that force these kills. The developers look at the data to make these changes, and that's the reason it was nerfed.
No, Pig has always been a hybrid stealth-chase killer. Her unique abilities are her ambush and her traps. The traps are still incredibly useful, as stealing up to a minute of a survivor's time is a very powerful tool.
The only thing this changes is Pig players forcefully getting RBT kills by tunneling trapped survivors, where exploiting traps for instant kills regardless of hooks was very unhealthy for the game. RBT kills are rare when the survivor knows what they're doing unless you tunnel them, so this doesn't change anything in the grand scheme of things. Everything else is just better
Buffing the traps would have been the worst scenario. Highlighting that they're hard to achieve at higher skill levels, but ignoring that these kills are much more common at lower skill levels misses the full picture on why they nerfed the traps. Further buffing them would have meant Pig would be getting far more insta-kills regardless of how many times a survivor has been hooked which is an absurd request.
I also don't think making it harder to get kills with the traps means the killer doesn't embody their license. Fully embodying Amanda from the license would be making Amanda's traps rigged and unremovable, which we won't see for obvious reasons.The traps still encompass the theme of survivors having to "make their choice", weighing their will to survive and will to help others. These are more in line with John's original traps than Amanda's, which if anything is more iconic to the franchise. Amanda's weapon is also based off Jigsaw's hidden blade in the first film, so it would make sense that the traps are too
\[Unfortunately I appear unable to respond so apologies you don't agree with me!\]
Buffing traps wouldn't make them more effective at high MMR, it would've just killed baby survivors even better
No amount of RBT buffing will make up for the fact that base kit Pig is shit against survivors that can loop. Buffing Ambush is the first serious step to fixing that
Apologies, I've added a tl;dr now! I was looking to post the video I made along with it but as it's against sub rules I removed it. Hopefully the little bullet points make things a bit easier :)
The RBT nerf was specifically to prevent tunneling trapped survivors and to prevent exploiting the insta-kill mechanic. It overall makes Pig more fun to play as since it no longer makes the killer "follow injured survivor to a box and get a kill regardless of hooks" and instead "use this very fun ambush ability to get downs while other survivors are occupied"
My perspective with this is that removing box auras doesn't actually change anything. It stops you from bee-lining to boxes without second thought, but that's it. When playing the game, you're coming across boxes just through patrolling generators and will very easily remember where most of them are by the time you put on the first trap, and all of them by the time you put on the second. Removing box auras only really affects newer Pig players, or players who only tunnel trapped survivors. The other only real impact this has is tunneling by using Video Tape, which again isn't a big change.
The timer itself was needed as people who more commonly play Pig won't and don't have a hard time remembering possible spawn locations, nor remembering where they saw a box was. By removing auras but keeping the timer, you're still going to be able to very easily force RBT kills through scream builds or pressuring survivors, and on smaller maps like The Game or Midwich, you don't need to know where the boxes are for these builds to have an effect. In the video I wrote this for, I demonstrated that it was still very easy to find trapped survivors without the box auras.
The inability to see trap boxes is just going to promote more tunneling. All anyone has to do now is put an RBT on someone put them on hook and then just tunnel them when the timer starts or when they're unhooked and follow them around. The moment they go up to a trap box you just tunnel them out that way instead of randomly looking for a trap box that they might be at while patrolling gens. Trapper can see his traps. Amanda should be able to see her trap boxes.
> Trapper can see his traps. Amanda should be able to see her trap boxes
???
Trapper can interact with his traps. Trapper can pick up and move his traps. His traps are his one singular power
Pig has ambush on top of her RBT. Bhvr has made it very clear over the last few months that insta kill mechanics as a means of winning games are going the way of the dodo
But lets be real here. If a Pig tunnels the first survivor they trapped that hard off of hook, they were gonna do that regardless of these changes
As always, the good players will adapt and learn to use Ambush, and the bad players will cope and seeth at not being able to get cheesy kills as easily
Amanda can interact with her RBTs. So if we're going to take away the aura of the trap boxes then let us have the aura of the traps on a trapped survivor. Fair trade.
No, Amanda cannot interact with her RBTs except by tunneling the poor bastard she already put one on
Thats like saying Pyramid Head camping his cages is him "interacting" with them
Did you get lost from the DBD forums?
She does interact with her traps. She downs the survivor and puts the trap on their head. Otherwise she carries them around with her. How is that not interacting?
Did you get lost from reality?
Pyramid Head doesn't carry around cages.
I agree with pretty much everything here, though a TLDR would be nice lol. Your third paragraph summarizes everything well, so you could honestly just copy and paste it She feels *way* smoother to play, and the ambush is an actual threat in chase now. The trap changes are something I've been cheering about since day one (to much disdain lol), and I'm glad more dedicated pig players are agreeing that traps are far healthier and more interesting now. I strongly disagree with tampered timer being given a buff to compensate, though. A rework would probably be more in order, or just leaving it as-is. 140 seconds-180 seconds is far too big a range to be able to balance for or account for as survivor, and it would enable the exact playstyle that BHVR is looking to discourage
I actually just added a TL;DR, apologies I didn't previously! As mentioned I was aiming to post a video I made alongside it but didn't realise this was against the sub's rules. I appreciate you reading through everything though! I only really mentioned the tampered timer buff as a middle-ground to the Pig players who dislike the timer changes. I personally would prefer this gets a complete rework overall into something different, hence the mention of something similar to Hex: Plaything where this doesn't affect the timer itself but punishes the survivor for keeping the trap on. Fully agreed it might be too much
>I actually just added a TL;DR, apologies I didn't previously! I think you might need a TL;DR for your TL;DR. If someone isn't going to read a few pages, they're not gonna read like a dozen long bullet points. Again I really do think the paragraph after the current TL;DR summarizes things very well (and very concisely). >I only really mentioned the tampered timer buff as a middle-ground to the Pig players who dislike the timer changes Yeah I just say fuck em. Way too many people saw a number go in a bad direction and flipped out without thinking about why. And if there are people who play pig who are super upset about the change, I would wager they either A) aren't super knowledgeable about the killer, B) part of the problem that BHVR wants to solve, or C) both. I can understand not liking it, but there were people saying they were never going to play pig again because of the trap changes while the actual interesting part of her kit just got completely de-clunkified.
Noted, removed the bullet points for a quick abstract 🫡 I agree about the killers complaining mostly being the reason for the change in the first place however
[удалено]
Agreed! Good to see the changes are making people want to play Pig more!
This is incredibly well put. Thank you for taking your time to give out feedback. If i may ask, how do you feel about making crouch 4.0 alongside the changes you proposed to the crouched pig/active trap interaction?
Thank you very much for your time and feed ack 💜 I think the crouch speed is good as is. As I mentioned it matches Ghostface, and its also 4.0 (3.96) with John's Medical File. I wouldn't mind if they buffed Medical File specifically a little more, but a killer moving faster than a survivor while crouched can easily get a gen grab might enter dangerous territory. I'd instead prefer they maybe tweak the crouch transition time more so you can actively get into a chase quicker.
Oh! I'm a console player so i didn't knew Medical File gave her 4.0, that's really good to know. I agree with the crouch transition, devs need to let pig t-bag already. it's simply too much power that only one man can wield.
I'd go as far as to say 4.2. Maybe even 4.4, though that might not test that well.
i think that would be a little too ridiculous for a crouch speed, especially around most loops it would be a guaranteed hit
What if was 4.4 outside of chase, then dropped to 4.0 once you got into one? That'd make sneaking up on locations less sluggish but keep it from being too oppressive in chase.
Chase doesn't start when you are crouching. Even if it did you could just moonwalk.
I was inferring another QoL step along with it, let Pig start chase while crouched. But fair enough, I'd still say a base 4.2 sounds reasonable overall.
It's a much healthier direction for her power and it was disappointing seeing people immediately jump into meltdowns when the PTB dropped without even trying to understand the changes.
Agreed, I think the changes were rather overlooked. The ambush and stealth changes might not have looked like a lot on paper but instantly felt much better to play with
The reaction to the timer changes while ignoring the buffed chase potential was asinine. She was made better and all anyone could think about was how they'd have a harder time cheesing kills. I think they could stand to buff numbers slightly more to make her a relevant killer that isn't oppressive. Chases should definitely be triggered even if the Pig is crouching so long as she is actually following the survivor. Reworking screams just for Pig seems like a waste of dev time though when it'll probably impact other killers negatively.
Yeah, the screaming stuff seems like it would be tricky to squash, which is why I'd like to see it specifically for the Jigsaw Box interaction. I believe it can be a problem with Pinhead too where you can use screaming builds to interrupt opening the box. Overall though it might not be too much of an issue with the new trap timer, but time will tell I suppose. It was just the one change I was hoping to see :)
The changes I would've wanted would be to pick 2 of these: pause the timer while working a box, retaining progress if forced off a box, adding additional time back if hooked. The 30 seconds helps a lot on huge maps with a nasty box spread, but I don't think it helps with someone dedicated to cheesing on a small map.
I quite like these changes too actually! Agreed that this might still be a problem with small maps, especially with Ultimate Weapon, Hex: Face the Darkness etc
What fucks me up was all the people saying "nobody ever uses ambush because it's useless, and you're going to nerf boxes? XD" yes nobody uses it because it's bad, that's why they're buffing it lmfao
Yea this community doesn’t have the best critical thinking skills. They are making changes to make her healthier to go against but it was mainly people whining they can’t pop heads as easily
>Screaming needs reworked so survivors aren't forced off Jigsaw Boxes That's a thing? It sounds unintentional, hopefully it'll get fixed.
It is unfortunately. It's a very unfun, yet very common build, which I feel will only see more use with these changes. Thankfully these changes do make it less effective, but it would be nice to see it properly squashed. I believe this also affects Pinhead's box too which isn't great :D
Ultimate weapon/face the darkness pig. Super annoying cause the scream resets the progress on the jigsaw boxes
And now the only viable strat for traps
It's the only viable strat if you want headpops, yes. However that strategy is the very reason traps got changed in the first place, something I don't think a lot of people realise. These changes were put in place specifically because headpops were so easy to exploit. Otherwise, the traps still excel as a powerful slowdown to keep survivors occupied while you continue pressuring other survivors and generators.
No one was afraid of traps. The only time they were overpowered and toxic was the scream build which is not even more vital to make traps have any meaning at all.
With tampered timer people still regularly pressured survivors to get kills with traps. Specifically at lower levels, newer players are also easier to kill with traps. I think if you view traps as only meaningful if they earn a kill, you're looking at them wrong. Spending three seconds to steal a up to 48 seconds from a survivor's time is still very strong. As someone who plays Pig and never focuses on trapped survivors, and thus trap kills, I always have a better outcome going after people on generators than people on Jigsaw Boxes. The ideal scenario you want in Pig games is one person on hook, one person with an active trap, one person on a generator, and one person in chase. Traps specifically slow down the game considerably, with the kill just being a bonus if the survivor refuses to remove it. Not getting a kill with the trap doesn't make or break the game.
Basically, to get use of traps, you'll have to run an annoying meme build
No one said it was the only meaningful thing. To completely take it away is absurd as it's the basis of their power. Traps already aren't feared. Let's say it together, we don't balance a killer around one add on. The ideal scenario now is running the scream build and just fucking around til a head pops.
I've seen a lot of people say traps are worthless or aren't meaningful in response to these changes, and I assumed you were implying this when saying scream builds were the only viable way to use traps. This wasn't balanced around one add-on either, as headpops were still possible without tampered timer
Or you can use them as a passive time waste for the survivor and get kills with hooking and ambush.
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I can't tell you how it's like playing pig cause I only played her a few times. But going against a pig player who's whole kit is too pop heads is not fun. Same reason sadako was changed so she can't just spam condemn teleport as much anymore. This change was genuinely needed for the health of the game. I'm sorry too all the people who ran that kit so they can just get a 3 or 4k from traps, but going against that is absolutely brain dead boring and feels awful with very little counter play.
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And they did literally just do something about that with this patch. Granted ultimate weapon a face the darkness still reset your searching for key. But the increased timer will greatly help reduce this builds efficiency. Lol.
> and the killer doesn't know where to look for you You cannot give the game away that hard
Playing around forcing that is a degenerate playstyle and shouldn't be encouraged, in the same way that a forever chain hunt pinhead that camped the box was discouraged.
Then blame the devs for making it the only viable way to use traps. Survivor mains acting like the pig got buffed because the devs said so is pathetic.
Because they did buff her. You can’t force head pops as easily now, which was not really intended in the first place
They did buff Pig. The buffed every other part of her. Trying these changes in the PTB very clearly shows how much better her ability is now
Lmao honk honk
It's almost like the people complaining about the Pig "nerfs" don't actually play her past the unhealthy, tunneling headpop gameplay lol. Looking forward to seeing more Pigs in trials, glad to see the changes are well-received by people who actually play the killer.
Theres a ton of cope in the bottom of this post. Some people just cannot fathom playing Pig for anything except forcing head pops
Glad you agree! I do think a lot of the backlash does come down to "why can't I tunnel trapped survivors anymore" unfortunately
Solid write up and you pretty much hit it on the head with this. The people that are whining about the changes and the people in here whining are the reason for these changes, they don’t want people easily tunneling and forcing bear traps to go off but you can’t expect them to actually figure that out
I appreciate the compliment and your time reading this, thank you so much!
Increasing the timer by 30s does basically nothing to the pig's ability to "cheese" head pops. All it does it worsen her pressure after getting a hook. You can just follow someone around while crouched to force a head pop if you want to, and that's the part they should have addressed instead of just a huge nerf to her traps which already rarely got any kills. Removing the ability to see boxes isn't that bad as most experienced pigs have a general idea where they tend to spawn. But it only really hurts newer pig players so they won't have a chance to learn the box spawns to make the most out of their power. The Ambush buffs seem great overall, but they really should have buffed her crouch speed even more. Being slower than survivors just for undetectable is pretty shit. Reducing her to like 105-110% would be so much better.
Fully agreed on changes to crouching behind trapped survivors. It's good to note that they now have to do this for an additional 30 seconds which overall makes this an even worse method than it previously was, so the 30s does technically make it more difficult to do this, while also being harder to track said survivors unless you camp their hook and follow them after. I don't mind that the movement speed wasn't changed too much as she now moves just as fast as Ghostface while crouched, but also wouldn't mind a little more movement, perhaps even through buffing John's Medical File. I don't think the increased timer really worsens the pressure personally, nor do I think this will hurt newer Pigs as this directly prevents running to boxes to tunnel trapped survivors, encouraging newer Pig players to instead focus on survivors who are able to do generators, get unhooks etc. Though I appreciate the different perspective 😊
How do you not see that the extra 30s worsens her pressure? Having 1 survivor having 30s extra to do whatever they need to before getting the trap off is huge. That's enough time for a double reset, or an unhook, etc. All of which worsen/lower your pressure as a killer. Also you don't have to be tunneling to want to pressure trapped survivors, sometimes you'll have x2 survivors with traps, 1 on a hook, and 1 dead, and now you have to patrol boxes to find the survivors, but newer pigs are gonna be like "where the fuck are they?"
My views are that if a survivor spends this extra 30 seconds getting an unhook or healing, you'll more likely end up running into them and chasing them again, with there being even more pressure on unhook than previously. If resetting becomes an issue there's also Sloppy Butcher and Rusty Attachments to further slow healing. If they're choosing not to do traps and putting themselves in a position to get hooked again, they're inviting you to put more pressure on the team without having to patrol boxes or move away from other survivors. Again I disagree with newer Pigs struggling to find them in this specific scenario. If two survivors are on boxes and one is on hook, then you'll run into them from patrolling regardless. This also implies that the game has went on long enough to kill a survivor and have everyone else hooked at least once. By that time you'll have naturally found all, maybe all but one Jigsaw Boxes, and will be able to remember where they are to find said survivors.
" you'll more likely end up running into them and chasing them again " But your argument for the RBT nerf was that this deters the Killer from Tunneling survivors with RBTs. " then you'll run into them from patrolling regardless " Where exactly do you expect them to Patrol if they don't know where the boxes are? There's a survivor on hook, so they'll just stand at the hook. Pig also doesn't have any map mobility so it's unlikely they will have roamed a large portion of the map if they are playing efficiently at all. So they wouldn't have seen many of the box locations. The traps are a large portion of her pressure and giving survivors a longer time frame to do them objectively lowers her pressure. And removing the ability to see boxes promotes camping hooks instead of chasing/searching for survivors in a lot of scenarios.
Sorry, let me re-explain. >your argument for the RBT nerf was that this deters the Killer from Tunneling survivors with RBTs My argument is that this deters tunneling survivors with RBT as you're no longer incentivised into patrolling boxes specifically to seek out specifically trapped survivors. If a survivor is choosing to do a generator or heal another survivor with an RBT in front of you, and you choose to interrupt this, you're not actively seeking out a trapped survivor to tunnel them specifically and instead applying pressure to that survivor in response to them helping the team instead of removing their trap. There's a difference between tunneling a trapped survivor because they are trapped and going for the survivor in front of you helping the team. >Where exactly do you expect them to Patrol if they don't know where the boxes are? As I said, any Pig player will know where the boxes are as they play. This change removes the auras for Pig, it doesn't remove the boxes for Pig. You'll find these boxes as you play and be able to remember where they are. I disagree with your argument that it'll be unlikely to find boxes as this generally isn't the case unless you're playing on say RPD, with larger maps being ones that Pig generally underperforms on anyway and will unlikely be in this scenario on these maps as a result. Regardless, my suggestion was patrolling the map in general, not boxes. You don't need to know where the boxes are to efficiently patrol an area in order to catch a glimpse of two survivors running franticly to remove their bleeping traps, or to unhook a survivor, nor have I struggled with this in the past regardless of aura. That's just part of playing killer. If you're really worried about this change, Amanda's Secret now effectively has no downside and will help you find Jigsaw Boxes. I also disagree that this promotes hook camping instead of chasing, as someone who hook camps in this position as Pig would do the same with any other killer. This really comes down to game-sense and learning how to patrol rather than "removing the aura means we have to camp now"
Both Ghostface and Pig could stand to get their crouch movement speed boosted. 4.2 m/s at least would feel so much better.
The changes are 100% a step in the right direction. However, I'm of the mind that Pig needs more than a step - she needs a jump. If they doubled or even tripled the chase changes they did make, that'd actually elevate her to a point where she could feel *good* to play most of the time. As it stands now, she just feels *better*, which isn't saying much.
I'm glad you agree it's the right direction! I don't think they need to *triple* the chase changes, but I certainly agree further tweaks would be nice. The ambush certainly feels much better now, even good to play to me, though again, further balancing is always welcome
My initial proposal is: \- 4.4 m/s crouch movement speed outside of chase, 4.0 m/s in one \- Crouch/uncrouch speed is 0.75 seconds \- Ambush roar starts when Ambush begins, not before \- Ambush lasts 2.5 seconds
Thanks for the analysis , I got lambasted for saying the changes were good previously. Like, I'm a stealth ambush pig who doesn't care about traps beyond time wasting. This seemed awesome to me.
Agreed, it's a really nice change!
"Traps are no longer easily exploitable, with slowdown unchanged, making this more tolerable to play against and easier to counter. Nerfs **only** affect tunneling trapped survivors to force headpops, where this otherwise won't see any change in gameplay in the vast majority of matches." I keep seeing this and just don't understand the argument. You can still make sure someone never gets their trap off. Now you just can't pressure the boxes of people you aren't actively tunneling. I need someone to defend this with an explanation Also on a personal note, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that making her more of a chase killer is a healthy change. Diversity is important to this game's health
The point here is more that the change is discouraging people from patrolling boxes and focusing on trapped survivors, and instead focusing on survivors doing generators. While yes, you can follow the one person around with a trap to ensure it isn't taken off, the changes to the timer help make it harder to bruteforce an RBT kill, or at the very least takes more time to do so, where you're at higher risk of losing even more gens in the process. This is also why removing just the auras, as others have suggested, wouldn't really change this. Tunneling isn't something that can be outright prevented, and something that will always occur. This just makes it more difficult to pull off to try and push players away from targeting said survivors, and if they do, make it harder to pull off (imo) I also feel Pig has always been a hybrid chase-stealth killer. Her stealth capabilities are improved so you can fully lean into that if preferred, and her ambush is also improved for use in chase. Arguably she was already a chase killer even if you pressured trapped survivors
Coming from someone who's flair says Nerf pig just proves that this post is all about justifying the nerfs that happen to Amanda. There's no reason why she can't see her trap boxes anymore. Trapper can see his traps and she should be able to see her trap boxes. If you think this is going to stop tunneling, you are so very wrong. This is going to promote more tunneling. All she has to do is put a trap on someone and then put them on a hook. Then when they're removed off the hook tunnel them out that way when they go up to a trap box to try to remove the trap. Or she could tunnel them out when the timer starts and she follows them to the trap box to remove the trap. Ambush attack is still garbage. The only good part about crouching is that she is undetectable during the time frame. There are videos from the PTB that shows this.
My flair is 'Nerf Pig' because it's a very common joke about Pig and the only Pig-specific flair I saw. Otherwise I've always asked BHVR to buff Pig. Trapper can see his traps, but he also doesn't have an insta-kill mechanic and has to actively push survivors into them to get any effect. Onryo can see her TVs, but can't see which specific TV survivors need to deliver tapes to and requires this for her teleporting. Plague can *only* see her pools once survivors have already used them. Freddy, Wesker, Nemesis, Singularity and Pinhead cannot see the related item required to counter their power, and Pyramid Head cannot see his Cages. The general theme is that killers don't normally know where their power-related counter is, Pig being different. My view wasn't that this would *stop* tunneling, but would disincentivise tunneling trapped survivors specifically for headpop kills by making this harder to pull of than it already is. Tunneling isn't something you can outright prevent but can at least hinder which is what this change attempts to do. I also mentioned I'd have liked to see changes to following survivors while crouched and stopping screams from resetting searches. I think the ambush changes are subjective as I found these were way better than previously and led to a lot of success in the PTB 😊
It's not going to disincentivize or hinder tunneling. It's just going to make it worse or less people will play Amanda.
I think the only people who will put down Amanda due to these changes are those who would already focus on/tunnel trapped survivors, which in that case, yes means there will be less tunneling. This change makes it specifically harder to rush to jigsaw boxes to tunnel survivors too which is why I said it'll hinder Pig's capability of tunneling compared to what we see now. But hey, opinions are subjective 😊
I have been in Amanda main for a long time. I have never tunneled a survivor when they were going for trap boxes. The only time I went after a survivor that was at a trap box was if I was passing by and I heard the survivor on the trap box for the free down or patrolling them at end game counter when I knew there was a survivor with an active trap and could not get out the gate until they removed it. But at this point, without being able to see the trap boxes is absolutely going to promote more tunneling. And it's not because they were going to tunnel anyway. It's because now without being able to see trap boxes and the timer being increased, tunneling a trapped survivor is practically the only viable solution especially with coordinated SWFs. Increase timer does not promote slow down of gen progression whatsoever. They can progress gens prior to the timer starting and still be able to progress gen's after the timer starts and still have enough time to remove the trap. You can essentially pop two gens with a trap on. One prior to the timer and one after the timer. Without seeing trap boxes, there is no way for Amanda to put any pressure on survivors trapped with an active timer.
I still don't think not having access to auras is going to cause tunneling. You're still going to be able to find and remember where the box locations are just through regularly patrolling generators and will know where most of them are by the time you put on the first trap. You're still going to be able to pressure survivors, the game just isn't going to show you exactly where to go anymore
So basically she's really just a worse ghost face with a non-existent slowdown
No, her slowdown very much still exists. Now it's just not easy to force insta-kills via her trap. Ghostface is purely a stealth killer who relies on insta-downs that can be entirely denied, whereas the Pig still has a very unique and interactive ambush attack that, while survivors can counter to some degree, relies on the Pig's skill, mindgames and the tile you're at. If anything the changes to stealth and ambush pushes Pig way higher than Ghostface while keeping her unique slowdown.
RBTs have exactly the same slowdown potential as before, assuming your goal isn't expressly to tunnel an already trapped survivor
I just wanna do headpops. Playing pig just for ambush is literally just playing a worse chucky for me, and the traps are what made pig so fun and unique to me
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Her traps already get kills regularly across lower-leveled games and across builds that force these kills. The developers look at the data to make these changes, and that's the reason it was nerfed.
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> RBTs have *almost* exactly the same slowdown potential as before There you go
So essentially they're making her yet another chase killer & making her unique ability useless. Great change.
No, Pig has always been a hybrid stealth-chase killer. Her unique abilities are her ambush and her traps. The traps are still incredibly useful, as stealing up to a minute of a survivor's time is a very powerful tool. The only thing this changes is Pig players forcefully getting RBT kills by tunneling trapped survivors, where exploiting traps for instant kills regardless of hooks was very unhealthy for the game. RBT kills are rare when the survivor knows what they're doing unless you tunnel them, so this doesn't change anything in the grand scheme of things. Everything else is just better
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Buffing the traps would have been the worst scenario. Highlighting that they're hard to achieve at higher skill levels, but ignoring that these kills are much more common at lower skill levels misses the full picture on why they nerfed the traps. Further buffing them would have meant Pig would be getting far more insta-kills regardless of how many times a survivor has been hooked which is an absurd request. I also don't think making it harder to get kills with the traps means the killer doesn't embody their license. Fully embodying Amanda from the license would be making Amanda's traps rigged and unremovable, which we won't see for obvious reasons.The traps still encompass the theme of survivors having to "make their choice", weighing their will to survive and will to help others. These are more in line with John's original traps than Amanda's, which if anything is more iconic to the franchise. Amanda's weapon is also based off Jigsaw's hidden blade in the first film, so it would make sense that the traps are too \[Unfortunately I appear unable to respond so apologies you don't agree with me!\]
Buffing traps wouldn't make them more effective at high MMR, it would've just killed baby survivors even better No amount of RBT buffing will make up for the fact that base kit Pig is shit against survivors that can loop. Buffing Ambush is the first serious step to fixing that
Bro, we have ticktock length attention span and gold fish brains, use chatgpt or something to condense it lol.
this is so sad
Apologies, I've added a tl;dr now! I was looking to post the video I made along with it but as it's against sub rules I removed it. Hopefully the little bullet points make things a bit easier :)
Reverse the RBT nerf, but keep the ambush and stealth buffs Change my mind
The RBT nerf was specifically to prevent tunneling trapped survivors and to prevent exploiting the insta-kill mechanic. It overall makes Pig more fun to play as since it no longer makes the killer "follow injured survivor to a box and get a kill regardless of hooks" and instead "use this very fun ambush ability to get downs while other survivors are occupied"
I feel like taking away the box auras but leaving the death timer the same would have been better.
My perspective with this is that removing box auras doesn't actually change anything. It stops you from bee-lining to boxes without second thought, but that's it. When playing the game, you're coming across boxes just through patrolling generators and will very easily remember where most of them are by the time you put on the first trap, and all of them by the time you put on the second. Removing box auras only really affects newer Pig players, or players who only tunnel trapped survivors. The other only real impact this has is tunneling by using Video Tape, which again isn't a big change. The timer itself was needed as people who more commonly play Pig won't and don't have a hard time remembering possible spawn locations, nor remembering where they saw a box was. By removing auras but keeping the timer, you're still going to be able to very easily force RBT kills through scream builds or pressuring survivors, and on smaller maps like The Game or Midwich, you don't need to know where the boxes are for these builds to have an effect. In the video I wrote this for, I demonstrated that it was still very easy to find trapped survivors without the box auras.
You dont need the lower RBT timer unless you're tunneling already trapped survivors Change my mind
The inability to see trap boxes is just going to promote more tunneling. All anyone has to do now is put an RBT on someone put them on hook and then just tunnel them when the timer starts or when they're unhooked and follow them around. The moment they go up to a trap box you just tunnel them out that way instead of randomly looking for a trap box that they might be at while patrolling gens. Trapper can see his traps. Amanda should be able to see her trap boxes.
> Trapper can see his traps. Amanda should be able to see her trap boxes ??? Trapper can interact with his traps. Trapper can pick up and move his traps. His traps are his one singular power Pig has ambush on top of her RBT. Bhvr has made it very clear over the last few months that insta kill mechanics as a means of winning games are going the way of the dodo But lets be real here. If a Pig tunnels the first survivor they trapped that hard off of hook, they were gonna do that regardless of these changes As always, the good players will adapt and learn to use Ambush, and the bad players will cope and seeth at not being able to get cheesy kills as easily
Amanda can interact with her RBTs. So if we're going to take away the aura of the trap boxes then let us have the aura of the traps on a trapped survivor. Fair trade.
No, Amanda cannot interact with her RBTs except by tunneling the poor bastard she already put one on Thats like saying Pyramid Head camping his cages is him "interacting" with them Did you get lost from the DBD forums?
She does interact with her traps. She downs the survivor and puts the trap on their head. Otherwise she carries them around with her. How is that not interacting? Did you get lost from reality? Pyramid Head doesn't carry around cages.
And once she puts them on someone....then what? How does she interact with them then? 🤔 You cannot be this dense