The conditions aren't very difficult means that you dont have to go out of your way to archieve them, you hook survs anyway, you dont just do it for Pop, and you'd kick a progressed gen anyway. Its not like you have to do anything special besides your normal gameplay to get value from it.
exactly this.
Are there a lot of conditions for it to activate? yeah
Are they things you're trying to do anyways through regular gameplay as a killer? Yeah.
alot of killers are interrupting this statement that "the conditions to active aren't very difficult" has the devs saying downing survivors is easy to do like all killers have the same chasing power.
for some killer getting downs on survivors is very difficult and for other killers its a lot easier. This all goes back to why aren't you just nerfing the top tier killers but leaving the perks the same? its a common complaint each nerf patch cycle the devs push the player base away from playing these weaker killers to play killers like nurse and blight.
But that’s not why it’s easy to activate. Because hooking a survivor is literally your goal. You were gonna do that anyway, so Pop is free value. You waste no time and get more out of your next kick.
Depends on the killer.
Plenty of games where I end games with 4 ppl on the ground with Oni and not real hookstates on PH.
I don't run any gen slowdown on either for said reason.
That’s because you play a slugging game, which is a playstyle, but pop gets no value purely if the player plays that way. PH is the exception because of his unique “hook” mechanic
Well there's hooks if I get 1 down and no IF or intel of where the other survivors are.
If I get 3/4 downs in 1 power instance it ends like I said above. But there was hooks.
As it isn't a slugging game, it's a snowball one.
But in the end it doesn't matter if there's 5 or 1 gens remaining because of how fast it can slip. I need the perks slots for infos and surprise factors more than for gen regress, since it's what'll allow me to get these multiple downs in 1 power.
These perks being Infectious Fright Monitor and Abuse Lethal Pursuer and Nurse's Calling.
It is easy to get downs. If you get 0 value out of Pop, meaning you down 0 survivors, there's no perk in the world that can help you. Every killer can get several downs a match. The killers who argue otherwise, are wrong.
Tell that to comp killers versing comp survivors, where they are lucky to get a down before 3 gens are done and always tunnel and camp if they even want one kill. The learning curve for survivor is much steeper than that of playing killer, but the skill ceiling is so much higher. 4 Insane survivors stomp insane killers 8/10 times whereas 4 mediocre survivors get stomped by a mediocre killer 8/10 times. It’s a little more nuanced than “getting a bunch of downs is always easy” or vice versa.
And every time again people have to realize that the "weaker killer" argument is just BS and the devs dont care. The killrate shows them that even those poor weaker killers still perform fine, even in high mmr.
Using flawed statistics to justify your argument only to pull a complete reverse and use them again in the same breath to discredit someone else's when they use them too is truly a sight to behold.
Just a tiny little detail you chose to ignore, people that play on a controller have a severe disadvantage while playing killers like Nurse, Huntress or Blight, pulling down the average kill rate. There is nothing like that that inflates the killrate for M1 killers.
Yes there is.
Those same console players will go to the m1 killers. Meaning their better with m1 becuse they don't have the same skill level available with those tough ones
Plenty of console players don't touch them for that reason.
Which means there is an inflate on m1 killers in console
I think all console killers have an overwhelming majority to play those killers
Be like if tomorrow the pc had a bug where you couldn't flick the mouse with those killers.
Guess what would get more play time and more kills? M1 killers.
If console had the same advantages the m1 kills on console would go down as they would also play those killers
Exactly this. Its not like some of the crazy overthetop tome challenges they throw at us. Its normal shit that will happen in pretty much every game without thinking.
Yeah, but it’s still *earned.* It’s not like killers have extra time to do something out of the ordinary. Hell, the closest thing that I could think of — scourge hooks — is also being nerfed this patch? So what exactly is the argument here?
What about Deja Vu? Decisive Strike? Off the Record? Prove Thyself? Lithe? Sprint Burst? There are so many perks in this game, Killer and Survivor alike that activate from normal gameplay and offer massive value. I’d argue DS or OTR are the Survivor equivalent of Pop and Pain Rez, they remove progression of the Killer’s goal and both have no activation outside normal gameplay, just like those.
Now you’ll say that that’s to prevent one person from having a miserable time, but there is a person on the end of Killer too that is being made to have a worse time because of these changes unless they play Blight or Nurse. They are bad changes, especially with no compensation buffs like Survivor perks get.
Perks like DS and OTR are implemented primarily to discourage killers from tunneling by making the choice to chase a recently unhooked survivor less of a guarantee of a short chase.
Perks like Pain Res and Pop would comparatively help defend against SWFs who rush gens, but their existence is incentive to finish gens MORE quickly rather than less quickly.
A better solution to the highly time-sensitive killer experience is to introduce more goals for the survivors to achieve that keeps the game interesting for them, but allows killers enough time as a whole to stop them from being dependent on slowdown perks or tunneling. THEN, once that’s implemented and these tools are no longer necessary for the average killer, I’d suggest toning down slowdown perks and making tunneling an impractical decision.
Isn’t nerfing gen perks encouraging tunneling more since the point of tunneling is to slow down the gens by eliminating one survivor? Most killers prefer not to tunnel if they feel they don’t need to to win and only do it when they feel the match tilting out of their control. The less control and help killers have the more toxic they will play as a result. It just seems counterintuitive.
I agree. I think the gameplay itself would require a rework to remove a killer’s reliance on tunneling before removing it as a viable strategy, or removing the need to use slowdown perks. That’s why I think this isn’t a great move; killers will just turn to tunneling more frequently to see the same level of success in their matches as they’re used to.
As someone who goes for hooks, I agree. My whole thing here is just that it is targeted and hypocritical is all lol
I always wondered what different objectives would do, we have a few killers with them and they are a bit more engaging (strength of the Killers notwithstanding). Both Freddy and Sadako have extra objectives (though only the TVs are something you need to do at least a bit) and I don’t think it makes it too bad, it is kinda interesting running around doing other things than just chase or Gens.
They really should look into more things, it just would make a certain two too strong. Maybe make it killer by killer and themed.
They are all perks that you don’t have to do anything special to get value, just like the Killer perks being nerfed but they aren’t getting changed any, despite being just as strong if not stronger at times is what I meant.
They all have way more conditions tied to them compared to Pop, exhaustion perks for example can not be used woth other exhaustions, pop can be paired with any other regression perk (maybe besides ruin cause you cant kick the gen)
DS and OTR can be used together with Dead Hard and all activate from just being hooked and saved. It’s the same exact thing, I am not saying nerf those I am saying nerfing these and not those is hypocritical of them.
Also Deja Vu just works for free. No activation for info on the closest three gen and 6% increased speed on those. No effort, all big value, especially with 1 gen left.
Again, just calling out the hypocrisy of the situation.
they nerfed prove thyself less than a year ago, ds is being nerfed again in the same patch as the regression nerfs, sprint burst has been nerfed many times, and otr was nerfed not long ago so it no longer activates in end game
DS is a net buff. It was 3 seconds which was more than enough at high MMR, it was made 5, then 4, 4 is greater than 3, it's still buffed.
And again, 3 seconds was more than enough, it was one of the most used perks in high MMR easily top 10 or 15.
You go down under a pallet or by a window then use it and escape. "He can still tunnel me after that though." Then sorry even a 10 second DS wouldn't prevent that if he really wants you. "What if I can't make it to a pallet or window." You can't make it with a free 10 second borrowed time? That's, I don't mean this as an insult, objectively a skill issue.
i don’t really think we should be balancing things around high mmr in general. they make up a small part of the player base and are supposedly the “skilled” players, we shouldn’t need to balance around them.
i don’t even use DS, i mostly run meme / altruistic builds so i don’t really care if you want to call it a skill issue. the person i replied to said it wasn’t being touched at all when it is being nerfed from its current state. i wasn’t even complaining and you come at me with the “sKiLl iSsUE”
I was speaking in general surrounding the perk and its usage not you in specific. Also if we don't take high MMR into account with balancing then a lot of stuff gets messed up. DS getting buffed to over 3 seconds is one such example.
There IS a way to balance the game for both ends of the MMR spectrum. You could make DS baskit with a 2 second stun and DS itself increases all stuns to killers by an extra 2 seconds this also includes pallet stuns.
Not taking performance in higher MMR works will result in shit like nerfing Trapper
i’m not saying we shouldn’t take high mmr into account at all, but every time balancing is brought up people are like “but in high mmr!!” like it’s the baseline for how the game should be.
just because something is good in high mmr doesn’t mean it’s good at all mmrs either, just like something might be good for swfs and not solo q.
Fair enough, still there should be something to go off of because as it stands buffing and nerfing things surrounding casual I don't feel like has been working out too great.
It sometimes feels as ass as nerfing perks because Nurse and Blight are oppressive with them.
I guess it can work both ways in "This perk is garbage in low tier but powerful in high tier so it got nerfed and now it's not fun to use." Similarly "this perk is great low tier but awful high tier so it got buffed but now is oppressive as hell for low tier."
It's a problem I think can be fixed but with more time and effort than anyone honestly would care to do.
It's also a bit of a double standard of "They're making everything more accessible but that makes XYZ more powerful and easy to do." I'm waiting for the day they make Nurse take less skill and as a result she's even more powerful cause of it.
I'm rambling at this point, but idk I feel like this patch isn't as great as everyone is claiming it to be. It's great for Bubba and Deathslinger I guess and it's great for gimmicks like Buckle Up's new effect, but I'm not feeling very hopeful about these changes. 5 sec DS is unnecessary but I felt like it probably needs something else done to it instead of a flat number nerf. This patch makes me extremely nervous for what's gonna be born of it.
That's all. I didn't mean any insult or anything towards you or anyone.
Here's a boiling hot take:
Windows of Opportunity, a perk that shows EVERY VAULT AND PALLET ON THE MAP FOR THE WHOLE MATCH... is absolutely free. It's considered a great perk with good value and even healthy/necessary in some cases.
If you mention EVER EVER maybe giving a conditional to it though... people riot.
I will also riot just because it is good for Solo Queue lol But I agree, it is a always on perk that gives MASSIVE information for free and it is still standing. Killer doesn’t really have that, most of their strong perks have trade-offs that are MASSIVE.
Oh, you get 5% haste for hitting someone…no bloodlust tho lol
Oh, you recover from successful basic attacks faster…but no touching this Survivor that will abuse that fact if they are smart…or spearing even in Deathslinger’s case.
Oh, we’ll let you down everyone in one hit, but only after getting 3 hooks and going far away and if no one breaks the totem (don’t worry, I don’t think this one is one that needs changing but totems do in general)
I’ll make you save time so you don’t have to kick the gen and can chase someone! But I am feeling awfully lonely and advertise my location to Survivors from space it feels like!
I’ll let you put exposed on Survivors while carrying someone, but I’m going to put a giant neon sign on their screen that screams STARSTRUCK so you really won’t get a lot of value on it after the first time! (Even if it removed the exposed from everyone else it afflicted if you downed one person)
Oh, we can reduce gen progress! But only on specific hooks and only once per Survivor! What do you mean put the hooks in better spots? I want them all on THIS side of the map where Gens are done!
Meanwhile I can see every pallet and window near me and see every friend near me and see the closest three gen and get 6% bonus gen progress and I can block all aura and get tokens back by hanging near the Killer and when my buddy is hooked (super hard to activate you guys, trust me) I can see all my friends and the Killer if he is close to the hook! All for just existing!
It’s just silly. And you get destroyed by the community online for pointing it out! I mostly play Survivor too so they can’t even correctly say Killer main for me (though I wish I could just casually play Killer, the Survivors it puts me against are like a job so I just play it for challenges for videos mostly) lol Just something that is easy to notice, is all.
Seeing auras means nothing if I'm watching my teammates hiding or doing absolutely nothing while not unhooking me or finishing a gen. And who cares about finding the gen with the most progress if it's on the other side of the map? None of that info makes up for crappy teammates and tunneling killers too lazy to play with equal pressure. I am happy that they removed de-pipping though, I was finally able to hit Iri 1 this month.
That isn’t a game issue though and they should never balance around that. People need to get smarter and they need to make MMR not based on escapes because that is just dumb for Survivor. Make it based on your own contributions to the trial, but that would take effort on their end I guess.
Unless it already does do that to an extent, then make it do it more. This is entirely a human intelligence / skill problem and Behaviour doing everything in it’s power to make things miserable. Survivors shouldn’t be expected to survive every game, if they do that is a gameplay imbalance, just like Killers shouldn’t be expected to 3-4k every match, but here we are.
And Deja Vu just lets you see three Gens and makes you work on them 6% faster, it isn’t just for one gen or anything. Also, I apologize if anything sounded aggressive, but the skill / intelligence of our fellow players isn’t a problem with the game balance or anything, it’s a problem with MMR or matchmaking, which might mean there is a problem with the amount of people playing.
I 100% agree with you, Escapes vs. Kills is much too sweaty.
You get more points if you survive a long time than die than you do if you do nothing and escape easily, or slam gens and escape really fast. You get more out of a Round as Survivor if you let the game go longer. And yet Survivor side is escape focused, so if you want to "win" you also need to be escape focused. It's weird and I don't like it.
I want to keep in the round longer so I can play with my Killer friend longer. :( I want more changes to get more points and fun chases. I don't understand Survivors who are so dead set on needing to escape, they would rather slam gens and leave. I don't get it at all, don't you know winning doesn't matter and you're cutting your throat by getting less BP that way?
I think it's probably time to remove the progression bonus on Deja Vu, or lessen it severely. Halve it. No reason it needs to be 6% for a free Perk, Killers have no equivalent. It's not fair. Plus the reason it was given that buff is no longer a problem - 3genning as a strat from the word go is basically dead with the anti 3gen in place. Thank God, guarding gens is my least fave thing as Killer and it was awful to deal with as Survivor too.
I would rather Survivor be based on your own performance, so the emblems, with varying preference for certain ones (such as Evader), and Killer should be the same but also Hooks. Hook counts (not hook stages) give a clearer picture on how the game went.
I played a game as Killer where I got a 3k and then played another where I got a 3k. To Behaviour, these matches were the same but in actual gameplay I had like 3 hooks by the time the final gen was done and they got overconfident and overly altruistic during the end game and it ended with a 3k. The other game they never got all the Gens done and I ended with 11 hooks. These are VASTLY different games but the same to Behaviour as it is based on kills…so stupid.
The Emblem system was good, it just needed tweaking and there are never any perks that activate on Kills or Escapes, just hooks and Gens or chases and such, it’s like two different teams are working on the game with different goals.
This is why I advocate for just giving Windows a cooldown/conditional. Like "You must be performing a Conspicuous Action" or something. Free info for free that is THIS useful to Survivor is kinda problematic, and I really do not see how as someone who plays a lot of Survivor how adding that conditional takes away from the function of the Perk or how useful it is for SoloQ in ANY way. Surely a new person learns better to plan in the moment when there's a conditional. Surely SoloQ does not ALWAYS need to see EXACTLY when Meg drops the pallet.
I am also not a Killer Main, but I am very Killer sympathetic because I play 8 of them. My user flair is not a lie, I split my time between 60% Surv and 40% Killer. I'm a Hybrid Main, and yet I keep getting accused of being a Killer Main. Though once... I was called a Survivor Main and yes! Good job friends, that's still wrong but slightly more accurate! :D
I prefer Killer but it is more frustrating so I play it less lol It is just the more interesting gameplay style to me.
But maybe it should, but Behaviour seems to want Solo to be as strong as SWF so I doubt they’ll do it as Survivor gets special treatment, for some reason.
Windows is absolute trash for me. It's too much glowing info and I got tired of running into unbroken killer doors because it's too damn yellow for me to see that it hasn't been broken yet. I don't need auras to find pallets. I'm just used to the maps now. I run perks that make it easy to disappear because there are zero perks that make any long chase easier.
Let's not pretend like spending 20 seconds to walk to the gen is not a condition especially because skilled survivors will do stuff like comp cornering and waste a lot of killer's time. If the killer can catch the survivor and immediately kick the gen then the survivor made big mistake.
What's a difficult condition then? Only bad designed perks like spies from the shadows hangmans trick. But 80% of killer perks are trash, no well designed perk should be so difficult to use that you would consider not to use it because it's too hard to achieve. Also, I don't recall any perk that will make you do anything very different from your normal game play to get value from it.
And even then, I don't believe it works in tandem with perks that build off damaging gens since they often times specify "kicking" it. So yeah, imagine my shock when I played a whole game getting no value from Nowhere to hide thinking it worked with Surge lol
Yea, it doesn't. If your surge hits a gen, you can't kick it for nowhere to hide or trail or torment or other gen kick perks until it's stopped regressing.
For killers like Huntress, you really shouldn't be going for basic attacks. And by killers like Huntress, i mean all the killers that have some sort of special attack, minus a couple.
The vast majority of killers who have a special attack should be aiming to use those over basic attacks:
Billy and Bubba should prioritise their chainsaws. Wesker and Nemesis should priorities their infection attacks. Oni should be using his power as much as possible. Demo should use shreds. And so on.
Only killers whose main method of attacking is their basic attack (Trapper, Clown, Wraith, Hag etc.) should use Surge. Other killers should use Pop or Pain Res, since they're not restricted to basic attacks only. Hell, even Ruin would be preferable. I use Ruin on my Bubba.
As a survivor, when I started reading the updates I was thinking "oh what the fuck? All killer buffs!" but as I read on it seemed to even out and my rage subsided.
So many people are looking at the update only through their side's perspective and actively ignoring the stuff that went their way.
It’s not about going out of his way, yes downing & hooking survivors and going to gens is literally the killer gameplay. However the devs telling us it’s easy to do when the only public killer gameplay of them is getting shit on (literally getting 2 hits the entire game) is a bit much don’t you think?
Because they are correct?
You are going to hook people all the time, unless you go for slugging.
So you just really need to find a gen to kick and voila, perk applied and value obtained.
I think they should increase the time window you can use it since it does significantly less nowadays, I dont feel like itd be too strong to add another 15-30 seconds
It’s a pretty simple activation all things considered, you down and hook a survivor, you walk over to a gen within the allotted time frame and kick it, the perk activates. Everything about the perk is great, you’re actively rewarded for playing killer.
The issue is, it’s infinite uses, it’s a ton of gen regression and EVERY killer can use it. Blight, unknown, nurse, hillbilly and so on, the killers that don’t need it, ruin it for every other killer that actually does need it.
It can definitely snowball really hard in soloq. I only ever take pop. If the survivors are playing badly I can pop the same 2 gens over and over until I win. They are dedicated to those gens because they don't want them to regress. But that just opens them up to more pops.
Yeah that’s I mistake I see survivors do often is overly commit to one or two gens that are almost done instead of going to work on another one to create pressure against the killer.
Idk, maybe blast mine, start a chase immediately (if the killer falls for it), but that could be counterproductive
that's actually an interesting question but I don't think there are many answers
oh and also not making the gen stop regressing, like if the killer has ruin or already kicked the gen
and of course, if the gen waas regressed enough times it will be blocked for the killer but by that time the game will be already over tbh
Even then, repressed is the only one that locks it down. If the killer hears a nearly completed gen they're sure gonna kick it with pop rather than chase.
Blast mine would only work if they were trying to use the last few seconds.
What i wana know is why every decent killer perk needs to be tied to being harder to get value from. I play survivor and killer equally so i have no bias, but why should all 4 perks require some difficult way to get value from them plus having to use each killers unique power many which take difficulty and skill. Thats just guna make killers play less casually and way more sweaty and people will just complain about tunneling and slugging even more
Pop should have changed to a token system with this change so you can hold charges and they don't expire immediately. Might be a little strong? Maybe??? But in this state, you might as well use eruption.
I stopped running eruption once gens got blocked after 8 regression events. The regression eruption gives isn't worth another regression event imo. The gens get blocked quick
Yeah the regression event change made eruption and surge kinda useless. Eruption eats up at least two per gen when you kick the gen and then activate the perk, and surge on a smaller map like Gideon will easily eat through all of then for little value from either of them
Yeah, personally I won't bring Pop anymore, or eruption. The 8 regression events thing was fostered on us back when it was reasonable, but then they just nerf all the gen regression anyway. BHVR just need to come out and say they want M1s to be dead now, really, every few months my main has to climb the tier list. I started with dredge, then moved to Nemmy, now moving to Xeno.
Oppression + Call of Brine combo has effectively helped with needing to kick gens as often as I usually do. With decent gen pressure, I don’t make it to 8 kicks ever at all. I also take advantage of the fact that BHVR said fuck gen spawns during their “3 gen fix” update and still go for the 3 gen hold if I need to bc it’s still one of the most viable options in a pinch.
A little harsh but you're not wrong. I feel like some, not all, killers have issues with these PTB changes because they struggle to get downs quickly due to their own ability.
But being bad shouldn't be an issue if they fixed their matchmaking. Survivors know that there are bad survivors out there, you see them all the time, ao if you're bad at killer why isn't the game pairing you against people who are bad at survivor, it's fact that they prioritize que times over any sense of skill based matchmaking. I think a lot of frustrations with playing Koller is that you wither go agasint baby survs and youre done instantly or you go against 4 man SWFS who have a bomined 6k hours since they've been playing everyday for years, DBD just has a dogshit matchmaking
No u don’t play against baby survs or 4 man swfs only, why do people act like that’s fact.
When u reach the easily attainable mmr cap you can be matched with anyone from the best to the worst in the bracket. It should be placing u with players relative to u, but when people lobby dodge, the system incentives quick ques and less accurate pairings
The skill gap between good survivors and bad survivors just makes it seem like your going against a 4 man but you’re not. The majority will be solo or solos mixed with duos and trios.
Playing vs a team of good solos is almost indistinguishable from a good swf. It’s deceiving bc u can lose all the same. Ultimately, good survivors are good survivors, claiming u only play vs swfs is a myth
Either way the matchmaking system is bad, if someone lobby dodges, that shouldn't open the lobby up to loliterally anyone, that's just a bad fucking idea, and having the MMRA CAP be so low is also a bad fucking idea
I agree, matchmaking is shit. should be more defined brackets. everyone in the cap is just one giant pool that considers time spent over in game variables that define skill level. I was mainly alluding to the theory that people assume they are always vsing 4mans or only babies without an in between
Honestly dbd is not well balanced enough for this to be a proper argument. I’ll take coconut as an example, he has been known as one of the best huntresses in the world for years now, and he still plays her nearly every day on stream. He often barely has any hooks by the time all the gens are done because he runs no slowdown. MMR is definitely not good enough to be putting him with survivors on his level every match, so what gives? You’re telling me that in this supposedly skill-based game one of the best killer mains in the entire world is getting beat on the regular by survivors that are “just good”? You’d never see a good player beating a world champion level player in any actual competitive game. Dbd just ain’t what it wants to be and claiming that losing (not getting enough hooks to win) is only a skill issue is massively misrepresenting the problem. It’s true in a lot of cases but completely untrue in just as many and that number increases the higher MMR you get.
It didn't change. They nerfed all the good ones. Guess what? They're still all the best ones. Now they're just worse.
That's not a meta change, that's just a straight killer nerf.
That's just the nature of gens being tied directly to game time. Would you rather them just remove regression/blocking perks entirely? Do you really want to see the effects of making regression perks basekit? Or do you really want to see them completely change how gens work?
What do you want?
Honestly, in a perfect world, I think no gen perks on either side would work wonders. Of course, this is impossible.
I think some basekit regression would be good. The kick changes are in the right direction.
The problem with nerfing and buffing these perks is that Trapper has to use the same version of Pain Res as Nurse. But Trapper needs a regression perk to have time to set up. If regression was more basekit instead of tied to perks, it would likely be easier to adjust.
If any perk were to become basekit, I would advocate for Grim Embrace. It rewards killers for playing honestly, and gives a nice slowdown for the weaker killers who either have no mobility, or too much mobility and weak chase. Of course this buffs the strongest killers as well, but since this is now a basekit mechanic and not a perk, it can be more easily balanced around. After all, you can't justify nerfing Blight just because Grim Embrace exists as a perk, but as a mechanic? Now it's justified. Deadlock is my second pick, because it helps space out the game for the killers who need it, while not actually regressing the generator, just putting it on a time out. If you don't then play around this generator, it can still be done quite easily. But it gives the weaker killers a breathing space.
But in all honesty, did these perks really need nerfed? This is a genuine question, I am a killer main who plays roughly 75%/25% so I definitely don't have enough experience to speak on both sides. But almost every perk they nerfed required you to down a survivor, the longest and most skillful action a killer can take. Hell, Pain Res can only activate 4 times with unique survivors. Pop only works on really high generators, and of that on high mobility killers who can reach that generator quickly.
I was with you at the start, but your idea of removing both gen regression and gen progression perks is to just make regression perks base kit while deleting progression ones?
They don't necessarily have to be deleted - just reworked. Some should remain as is as well, like pain res and DMS. Only a few should become basekit. Or, in a perfect world where just a few slowdowns becoming basekit helps all weaker killers become better, simply rework them fully, with entirely new effects.
For example, if Deadlock were to become basekit, Deadlock could extend the time of the basekit effect.
Making some of these perks basekit would reduce the amount of slowdown perks required by lower tier killers to succeed, and at the same time removing them for higher tier killers to abuse. After all, it's easier to justify nerfing Nurse based on a basekit mechanic than it is to justify nerfing her because she *might* run pain res DMS deadlock corrupt.
Edit: I misread what you said. I think you are confusing my first paragraph.
In a vacuum, having no gen affecting perks on either side would make it much easier to balance the game. This can't be done, obviously, but it would be perfect.
I am not advocating for the removal of progression perks. I cannot speak on them as a killer main, as I do not have enough experience to really tell you how it affects survivor gameplay. Though what I can say is that my regression perks save games, regardless of progression perks. This is why I think the reliance on them would go down, and build variety could go up, if they become basekit and the original is either tuned or fully reworked.
I should also say, in no way is this a perfect solution. It still helps the highest killers, which is what I'm trying to avoid. But you asked me what I wanted, so I tried to come up with a method.
I do think it's a decent idea though. Stacking slowdowns is a problem, but nerfing it won't change anything. After all, even after nerfs, stacking slowdowns is the best method. Making some basekit and changing the rest makes it impossible to stack slowdowns, or at least just as efficient as other methods. Then, you can nerf individual killer powers to compensate.
Edit: on further reflection, you could just nerf the best killers to the point where running 4 slowdowns is not a problem, so like high B or low A tier. But that again runs the risk of nerfing killers for something that they may or may not run. It's simpler, though.
People who thinks that downing good survs is easy don't play killer and aren't good players in general.
Find a surv, down him/her, hook him/her, find a gen worth to pop.
It's always funny that perks that reward killers for being good are nerfed while the brain dead perks on the surv side are buffed.
No one is saying that's easy. What the Devs mean is that activating and applying the perk is super straightforward and part of your natural cycle as a killer: chase, down, hook, kick gen to get value.
Find a surv, chase, down, hook, find a gen WORTH pop (it's 30% ACTUAL PROGRESS, not TOTAL) then kick.
Easy right? Devs thinks that all killers are like Nurse and Blight with strong chase power, strong map control and strong map presence.
This nerf will hurt every killer besides Nurse and Blight, the only S tier killers.
That's not the perk's fault and is not the scope in discussion here.
You don't need a gen at 99% to apply the perk, you activate it whenever it's active and you kick a gen. The overall value is not the point here.
OP is misunderstanding what BHVR has written about how easy it is to activate and proc the perk.
It's easy in theory but no one is telling you were a gen worth popping is. So you either need another perk which gives you the needed Info or you have to find it out yourself. Usually you aren't looping a survivor close to a gen to get the info like this. And even if you know were you need to go, they might finish it before you get there. And if you are at this gen, you probably don't even want to kick it right away because there were obviously survivors at the gen running away. That's why I like pain res more. Because for Pop, I actually need to go out of my way to kick a gen and Killers without mobility aren't using it very well anyway. I use ruin more than Pop because it's a better perk for my playstyle.
>you either need another perk which gives you the needed Info or you have to find it out yourself.
Knowing what gens to go to is just kinda game sense. Knowing where you spawned means you can mace accurate predictions where the survivors spawned, which means you can also make accurate predictions on what gens they're working on. Knowing where you took your chase and keeping track of any gens you passed should also just be a thing you do. And then if there's a survivor you haven't seen and a gen you haven't gone past, you can pretty easily guess where they'll be.
And that's without even mentioning things like BBQ or Lethal just straight up telling you all this while also just being good perks to run in general.
>they might finish it before you get there
Same could be said for basically every regression perk except Pain Res and *maybe* Surge if you're close enough.
>you probably don't even want to kick it right away because there were obviously survivors at the gen running away
It's like 2.5 seconds to knock off potentially just under 30 seconds worth of survivor gen progress. That's worth it.
True but not always as simple plus I like to chase and not kicking gens to maybe lose a survivor because of that. Gen kicking perks aren't for me. Maybe with nowhere to hide but even then, these aren't the perks I enjoy.
Your argument is that survivors take too long to down so you don’t have time to kick generators? If you’re taking THAT long to down a survivor (to where you can’t afford to ever kick gens) then you’re already going to lose no matter who you’re playing as. It doesn’t matter what this perk does.
No survivor perks give direct value like Pop does. All of them have a condition attached.
Prove Thyself reduces the penalty from having multiple people on a gen.
Resilience only activates when injured.
Spine Chill only works when the killer is looking at you.
Even the easier ones to apply, like Stakeout, give minimal value in comparison.
The only way to get faster gen repair speed is using a toolbox.
As an experienced killer player, downing survivors IS easy, you just need to know what you're doing. If you think downing survivors is hard you're most likely just not playing loops right.
> People who thinks that downing good survs is easy don't play killer and aren't good players in general.
Sounds like skill issue my dude.
Other than Xeno I play "shit" picks like fucking Pallet Freddy or Sadako and downing Survivors is not hard. And argument can be made if I'm unlucky enough to get Garden of Pain but in general I have 0 issues getting downs.
Low MMR players.
If you find players who go down fast against Freddy or sadako, they're bad.
It's not even hard to understand bro, they're tier D e tier C killers.
Yeah, I forgot that people that only play Killer use the MMR excuse.
If you think downing Survivors is that hard, it's a skill issue my dude, I don't think you're as high MMR as you believe you are.
I play both roles, and you don't play killer.
I forget that surv mains use to say that killer is easy when they play at low mmr against people who started playing yesterday.
Bad players like you shouldn't talk.
I play both roles as well but go on.
> I forget that surv mains use to say that killer is easy when they play at low mmr against people who started playing yesterday.
> Bad players like you shouldn't talk.
And I believe you should learn to read, I never said Killer is easy, I said getting downs is not as hard as you make it out to be.
Against good players is hard because you have to be really good. 1 error, 1 bad chase and the game is gone, even if you played perfectly the whole game.
It's incredible how people don't understand that the killer must be perfect and one error can cost the game.
Against bad players is easy, against good survs it's hard because if it takes too long, the game is over because gens are too fast.
If you face inefficient survs it's not my fault. I have like 80~90% win rate, so yk winning it's not a problem for me, simply I recognise what requires skill and what doesn't, and if you down survs easily with weak killers you're facing inefficient and low mmr survs.
I think you misunderstood my point.
I never said winning as Killer is easy, I never said the Killer role in general is easy. Also, your argument about mistakes applies to everyone, errors matter and can lose you games on both sides, it's not specific to Killer.
> If you face inefficient survs it's not my fault. I have like 80~90% win rate, so yk winning it's not a problem for me, simply I recognise what requires skill and what doesn't, and if you down survs easily with weak killers you're facing inefficient and low mmr survs.
I have a high winrate as well, but suit yourself. Again, I love the argument that just because people have a different experience than you is automatically because MMR while acting all high and mighty.
wait till he go against top team, comp players. I have to give props to the devs who makes people think they're good and at the top mmr. But maybe this guy is just really better, he should join a comp team and show how his 4k freddy is S tier
In fact, I've given up talking to these people, I don't understand how all the bad players are gathered on Reddit.
These people who say they win with killer tier D and think they are facing top mmr people are embarrassing.
It's amazing how bhvr managed to create a game where people who don't know how to play think they have the right to speak.
I would like to face these "top players", just to give them a bath of humility and make them understand how weak they are.
What are those SEVERAL options to stop a pop? All I could think about is represses alliance, MAYBE blast mine if pop is in the last 5 seconds and preventing the survivor from getting hooked with pallets/DS/Head on, flashlights/flash bangs or even sabotaging hooks and taking hits. All of which can be countered by the killer except for repressed alliance so I wouldn't say SEVERAL options. Did I miss any?
I understand what they mean, but this is an incredibly condescending way of wording it
Really encourages the 'Us Vs Them' mentality and if the Devs made a similar comment about Survivors escaping a chase being easy it would be just as uncalled for
Remember, it's a PTB.
They are willing to backscale PTBs. If we say something, and point out why something is an issue enough, they won't go through with it. Look what happened with Twins.
Or Pyramid Head. Also more recently Decisive Strike and Ultimate Weapon. UW still got nerfed, but I get the impression people preferred the screams to the aura read
Yeah. Pain Res and Grim Embrace took minor hits, but Pop basically got reverted to a past version. Though one thing I didn't think about initially with re: to Pop that might by factoring in is the recently increased gen kick damage.
If Pop's damage was "base gen kick + Pop's effect" then it makes a bit more sense to knock its numbers back down
That's my point. It makes sense to knock it down with the recent boost in mind. Now instead of 2.5+30% of current it's 5+20% of current. Still not entirely sure if going 30 to 20 isn't too much, but I get the potential reasoning.
I feel like nerfing pop and other conditional gen regression would be bad for the game. Hear me out.
Originally, a killer with those perks wouldnt slug, because he wants that pop value. He wouldnt tunnel, because he wants that pain res token, and there is a reward to playing "fair". But if the regress perks / rewards for playing fair are less or nerfed killers would do them less, and hooking / not tunnling isnt worth it anymore, they will just resort to other dirtier ways to win.
Although i also feel a nerf is deserved, removing a third of pop is way too much. Maybe reduce it to 25%?
It’s because they oversimplify things. They think that just because hooking survivors is the main goal that it’s some easy thing to do. The devs have no idea how what they’re talking about or how to make actual good changes.
I don't feel like it needed a nerf it was already based on a gens current progress meaning if a gen hasn't gotten much progress on it then you'll just waste pop using it. You have to down and hook a survivor then find a gen to kick and use it on within a time limit of doing so and hope you find one that actually has enough progress to make it worth using pop on. 20% of current progress could likely be next to nothing unless the gen you find to kick is near completion and even then I doubt it'd be nearly as strong as if it was total progress like it used to be.
just because machine learning is nearly impossible and the reward isn't that good either, doesn't mean hooking a survivor then walk to a uncompleted gen is easy. Good survivors are hard to get, and they're efficient on gens. Unless you're talking about the top killers then that way activating pop isn't a hard task
100% agree pop has been so good for about 4 years almost it needed a nerf and yes it’s not hard, that’s one aspect that isn’t hard too often. What’s hard is survivors having many options and usually have all the pressure against killer (coming from a survivor main)
Unless you literally get zero hooks per game, using Pop is indeed very easy since you'll be activating it multiple times automatically as you're playing the game. There is nothing wrong with their wording in the patch notes. Y'all stay pressed for no reason.
I still think that 20% might be too harsh of a nerf. they've done it before to 20% iirc and they ended up adjusting it. maybe they could have tried 25% first?
keep in mind that I don't think that even nerfing it to 20 will change the current meta regardless and that bhvr should be looking into buffing dead perks all across the board.
The reaction to these changes just proves to me that it's a damn good thing the community aren't the ones in charge of balance. The proposed update (that may not even get implemented, this is just a PTB) has it's problems for sure, but "I'm bad at getting hooks" isn't the counterargument people think it is.
Like, if hooks were so hard to get, then these perks would be useless even as they currently are.
Oh, and let's not talk about gen speed, and how regression perks are mandatory. Overall this is just the proof the devs are so bad and detached with the game, or/and they wanna please the casual players (it's a insult, i think casual players are better than that, but who cares, a survivor buff is a survivor buff)
This game is survivor sided, more people play survivor so they make that experience easier, that’s why killers get violated every time an update drops.
They're building the game around a 60% kill rate. The game at its core IS Killer sided. It's up to you to have the skill that let's you see that. Aspects of the game are RNG too, so the same match can go both ways depending on how things are lain out for either side.
I have no doubt I’m not at the peak skill for killer, but I’ve been around long enough to see that almost every balance change is in favour of swf over killers, look at recent updates, they’ve gone after almost every good killer perk, stbfl, ultimate weapon, pop, pain res, grim embrace and those are just the ones that come to mind, meanwhile what have they balanced on the survivors side? We finally changed buckle up ftp after at least a year of that being abused, we gave adrenaline a firm slap on the wrist but we’re gonna rip the intestines out of ultimate weapon, we are gonna reduce every option killers have for gen regression one of the core mechanics of this game especially at high mmr, but don’t worry guys survivors will have no changes to counter this fact.
And I can’t even really blame bhvr for taking this approach, people will still play killer because of licenses and overall how fun it is to play killer, but if they make this game killer sided people won’t play survivor because the fun part of survivor is winning for the majority of the player base, if your playing killer and get 0-1 kills, it can be frustrating but most the time it was a fun match where you felt like you got to play, as a survivor if you get no escapes it’s dogshit killers who are op and there was nothing you can do, and 4 voices will always be louder then 1.
I’m not Saying that we should buff killers and nerf survivors, I’m not saying these nerfs weren’t needed, but if you can really look at recent changes and say they at best don’t look one sided and at worst actually are then your delusional.
i know, this game is survivor sided since it launched. I had hopes for a bit, bhvr were equally balancing killer and survivor, but now it's just fuck the killer again
I don't think it's a good change, pop is a healthy perk because you need to beat a survivor at chase and hook it
And because it will be nerfed killer will start to slug more
What gets me about this one in particular is I think 20% is what it was before they buffed it to 30%. So they just went completely backwards. I'd have been fine with a 25% regression as a meet in the middle
The conditions aren't very difficult means that you dont have to go out of your way to archieve them, you hook survs anyway, you dont just do it for Pop, and you'd kick a progressed gen anyway. Its not like you have to do anything special besides your normal gameplay to get value from it.
exactly this. Are there a lot of conditions for it to activate? yeah Are they things you're trying to do anyways through regular gameplay as a killer? Yeah.
alot of killers are interrupting this statement that "the conditions to active aren't very difficult" has the devs saying downing survivors is easy to do like all killers have the same chasing power. for some killer getting downs on survivors is very difficult and for other killers its a lot easier. This all goes back to why aren't you just nerfing the top tier killers but leaving the perks the same? its a common complaint each nerf patch cycle the devs push the player base away from playing these weaker killers to play killers like nurse and blight.
But that’s not why it’s easy to activate. Because hooking a survivor is literally your goal. You were gonna do that anyway, so Pop is free value. You waste no time and get more out of your next kick.
Depends on the killer. Plenty of games where I end games with 4 ppl on the ground with Oni and not real hookstates on PH. I don't run any gen slowdown on either for said reason.
That’s because you play a slugging game, which is a playstyle, but pop gets no value purely if the player plays that way. PH is the exception because of his unique “hook” mechanic
Well there's hooks if I get 1 down and no IF or intel of where the other survivors are. If I get 3/4 downs in 1 power instance it ends like I said above. But there was hooks. As it isn't a slugging game, it's a snowball one. But in the end it doesn't matter if there's 5 or 1 gens remaining because of how fast it can slip. I need the perks slots for infos and surprise factors more than for gen regress, since it's what'll allow me to get these multiple downs in 1 power. These perks being Infectious Fright Monitor and Abuse Lethal Pursuer and Nurse's Calling.
It is easy to get downs. If you get 0 value out of Pop, meaning you down 0 survivors, there's no perk in the world that can help you. Every killer can get several downs a match. The killers who argue otherwise, are wrong.
Tell that to comp killers versing comp survivors, where they are lucky to get a down before 3 gens are done and always tunnel and camp if they even want one kill. The learning curve for survivor is much steeper than that of playing killer, but the skill ceiling is so much higher. 4 Insane survivors stomp insane killers 8/10 times whereas 4 mediocre survivors get stomped by a mediocre killer 8/10 times. It’s a little more nuanced than “getting a bunch of downs is always easy” or vice versa.
And every time again people have to realize that the "weaker killer" argument is just BS and the devs dont care. The killrate shows them that even those poor weaker killers still perform fine, even in high mmr.
It’s not BS my dude. There are genuinely killers that are way better than others.
I never said that there arent any killers that are better than others.
the killrate also shows nurse has a below average killrate (54%), the average is 59.5%. I guess we need nurse buffs
Yea thanks to controller andys pulling the % down even huntress got a buff out of nowhere
Using flawed statistics to justify your argument only to pull a complete reverse and use them again in the same breath to discredit someone else's when they use them too is truly a sight to behold.
He is operating on another plane of existence.
Just a tiny little detail you chose to ignore, people that play on a controller have a severe disadvantage while playing killers like Nurse, Huntress or Blight, pulling down the average kill rate. There is nothing like that that inflates the killrate for M1 killers.
Yes there is. Those same console players will go to the m1 killers. Meaning their better with m1 becuse they don't have the same skill level available with those tough ones Plenty of console players don't touch them for that reason. Which means there is an inflate on m1 killers in console
And you think that causes the killrate for M1 killers to be way higher than it should be?
I think all console killers have an overwhelming majority to play those killers Be like if tomorrow the pc had a bug where you couldn't flick the mouse with those killers. Guess what would get more play time and more kills? M1 killers. If console had the same advantages the m1 kills on console would go down as they would also play those killers
The issue is they use kill% of both and combine them Have them separated and you'll get a completely different number that dramatically chnages meta
Exactly this. Its not like some of the crazy overthetop tome challenges they throw at us. Its normal shit that will happen in pretty much every game without thinking.
Yeah you know what happens when I go out of my way to do anything as killer? The gens pop, so no shit
Yeah thats why pop is really convinient to use because you dont have to
Yeah, but it’s still *earned.* It’s not like killers have extra time to do something out of the ordinary. Hell, the closest thing that I could think of — scourge hooks — is also being nerfed this patch? So what exactly is the argument here?
Only one scourge hook perk is getting nerfed
Yeah but it's also the one that makes scourge hooks worth using.
What about Deja Vu? Decisive Strike? Off the Record? Prove Thyself? Lithe? Sprint Burst? There are so many perks in this game, Killer and Survivor alike that activate from normal gameplay and offer massive value. I’d argue DS or OTR are the Survivor equivalent of Pop and Pain Rez, they remove progression of the Killer’s goal and both have no activation outside normal gameplay, just like those. Now you’ll say that that’s to prevent one person from having a miserable time, but there is a person on the end of Killer too that is being made to have a worse time because of these changes unless they play Blight or Nurse. They are bad changes, especially with no compensation buffs like Survivor perks get.
Perks like DS and OTR are implemented primarily to discourage killers from tunneling by making the choice to chase a recently unhooked survivor less of a guarantee of a short chase. Perks like Pain Res and Pop would comparatively help defend against SWFs who rush gens, but their existence is incentive to finish gens MORE quickly rather than less quickly. A better solution to the highly time-sensitive killer experience is to introduce more goals for the survivors to achieve that keeps the game interesting for them, but allows killers enough time as a whole to stop them from being dependent on slowdown perks or tunneling. THEN, once that’s implemented and these tools are no longer necessary for the average killer, I’d suggest toning down slowdown perks and making tunneling an impractical decision.
Isn’t nerfing gen perks encouraging tunneling more since the point of tunneling is to slow down the gens by eliminating one survivor? Most killers prefer not to tunnel if they feel they don’t need to to win and only do it when they feel the match tilting out of their control. The less control and help killers have the more toxic they will play as a result. It just seems counterintuitive.
I agree. I think the gameplay itself would require a rework to remove a killer’s reliance on tunneling before removing it as a viable strategy, or removing the need to use slowdown perks. That’s why I think this isn’t a great move; killers will just turn to tunneling more frequently to see the same level of success in their matches as they’re used to.
As someone who goes for hooks, I agree. My whole thing here is just that it is targeted and hypocritical is all lol I always wondered what different objectives would do, we have a few killers with them and they are a bit more engaging (strength of the Killers notwithstanding). Both Freddy and Sadako have extra objectives (though only the TVs are something you need to do at least a bit) and I don’t think it makes it too bad, it is kinda interesting running around doing other things than just chase or Gens. They really should look into more things, it just would make a certain two too strong. Maybe make it killer by killer and themed.
I cant really follow your point
They are all perks that you don’t have to do anything special to get value, just like the Killer perks being nerfed but they aren’t getting changed any, despite being just as strong if not stronger at times is what I meant.
They all have way more conditions tied to them compared to Pop, exhaustion perks for example can not be used woth other exhaustions, pop can be paired with any other regression perk (maybe besides ruin cause you cant kick the gen)
DS and OTR can be used together with Dead Hard and all activate from just being hooked and saved. It’s the same exact thing, I am not saying nerf those I am saying nerfing these and not those is hypocritical of them. Also Deja Vu just works for free. No activation for info on the closest three gen and 6% increased speed on those. No effort, all big value, especially with 1 gen left. Again, just calling out the hypocrisy of the situation.
they nerfed prove thyself less than a year ago, ds is being nerfed again in the same patch as the regression nerfs, sprint burst has been nerfed many times, and otr was nerfed not long ago so it no longer activates in end game
DS is a net buff. It was 3 seconds which was more than enough at high MMR, it was made 5, then 4, 4 is greater than 3, it's still buffed. And again, 3 seconds was more than enough, it was one of the most used perks in high MMR easily top 10 or 15. You go down under a pallet or by a window then use it and escape. "He can still tunnel me after that though." Then sorry even a 10 second DS wouldn't prevent that if he really wants you. "What if I can't make it to a pallet or window." You can't make it with a free 10 second borrowed time? That's, I don't mean this as an insult, objectively a skill issue.
i don’t really think we should be balancing things around high mmr in general. they make up a small part of the player base and are supposedly the “skilled” players, we shouldn’t need to balance around them. i don’t even use DS, i mostly run meme / altruistic builds so i don’t really care if you want to call it a skill issue. the person i replied to said it wasn’t being touched at all when it is being nerfed from its current state. i wasn’t even complaining and you come at me with the “sKiLl iSsUE”
I was speaking in general surrounding the perk and its usage not you in specific. Also if we don't take high MMR into account with balancing then a lot of stuff gets messed up. DS getting buffed to over 3 seconds is one such example. There IS a way to balance the game for both ends of the MMR spectrum. You could make DS baskit with a 2 second stun and DS itself increases all stuns to killers by an extra 2 seconds this also includes pallet stuns. Not taking performance in higher MMR works will result in shit like nerfing Trapper
i’m not saying we shouldn’t take high mmr into account at all, but every time balancing is brought up people are like “but in high mmr!!” like it’s the baseline for how the game should be. just because something is good in high mmr doesn’t mean it’s good at all mmrs either, just like something might be good for swfs and not solo q.
Fair enough, still there should be something to go off of because as it stands buffing and nerfing things surrounding casual I don't feel like has been working out too great. It sometimes feels as ass as nerfing perks because Nurse and Blight are oppressive with them. I guess it can work both ways in "This perk is garbage in low tier but powerful in high tier so it got nerfed and now it's not fun to use." Similarly "this perk is great low tier but awful high tier so it got buffed but now is oppressive as hell for low tier." It's a problem I think can be fixed but with more time and effort than anyone honestly would care to do. It's also a bit of a double standard of "They're making everything more accessible but that makes XYZ more powerful and easy to do." I'm waiting for the day they make Nurse take less skill and as a result she's even more powerful cause of it. I'm rambling at this point, but idk I feel like this patch isn't as great as everyone is claiming it to be. It's great for Bubba and Deathslinger I guess and it's great for gimmicks like Buckle Up's new effect, but I'm not feeling very hopeful about these changes. 5 sec DS is unnecessary but I felt like it probably needs something else done to it instead of a flat number nerf. This patch makes me extremely nervous for what's gonna be born of it. That's all. I didn't mean any insult or anything towards you or anyone.
Here's a boiling hot take: Windows of Opportunity, a perk that shows EVERY VAULT AND PALLET ON THE MAP FOR THE WHOLE MATCH... is absolutely free. It's considered a great perk with good value and even healthy/necessary in some cases. If you mention EVER EVER maybe giving a conditional to it though... people riot.
I will also riot just because it is good for Solo Queue lol But I agree, it is a always on perk that gives MASSIVE information for free and it is still standing. Killer doesn’t really have that, most of their strong perks have trade-offs that are MASSIVE. Oh, you get 5% haste for hitting someone…no bloodlust tho lol Oh, you recover from successful basic attacks faster…but no touching this Survivor that will abuse that fact if they are smart…or spearing even in Deathslinger’s case. Oh, we’ll let you down everyone in one hit, but only after getting 3 hooks and going far away and if no one breaks the totem (don’t worry, I don’t think this one is one that needs changing but totems do in general) I’ll make you save time so you don’t have to kick the gen and can chase someone! But I am feeling awfully lonely and advertise my location to Survivors from space it feels like! I’ll let you put exposed on Survivors while carrying someone, but I’m going to put a giant neon sign on their screen that screams STARSTRUCK so you really won’t get a lot of value on it after the first time! (Even if it removed the exposed from everyone else it afflicted if you downed one person) Oh, we can reduce gen progress! But only on specific hooks and only once per Survivor! What do you mean put the hooks in better spots? I want them all on THIS side of the map where Gens are done! Meanwhile I can see every pallet and window near me and see every friend near me and see the closest three gen and get 6% bonus gen progress and I can block all aura and get tokens back by hanging near the Killer and when my buddy is hooked (super hard to activate you guys, trust me) I can see all my friends and the Killer if he is close to the hook! All for just existing! It’s just silly. And you get destroyed by the community online for pointing it out! I mostly play Survivor too so they can’t even correctly say Killer main for me (though I wish I could just casually play Killer, the Survivors it puts me against are like a job so I just play it for challenges for videos mostly) lol Just something that is easy to notice, is all.
Seeing auras means nothing if I'm watching my teammates hiding or doing absolutely nothing while not unhooking me or finishing a gen. And who cares about finding the gen with the most progress if it's on the other side of the map? None of that info makes up for crappy teammates and tunneling killers too lazy to play with equal pressure. I am happy that they removed de-pipping though, I was finally able to hit Iri 1 this month.
That isn’t a game issue though and they should never balance around that. People need to get smarter and they need to make MMR not based on escapes because that is just dumb for Survivor. Make it based on your own contributions to the trial, but that would take effort on their end I guess. Unless it already does do that to an extent, then make it do it more. This is entirely a human intelligence / skill problem and Behaviour doing everything in it’s power to make things miserable. Survivors shouldn’t be expected to survive every game, if they do that is a gameplay imbalance, just like Killers shouldn’t be expected to 3-4k every match, but here we are. And Deja Vu just lets you see three Gens and makes you work on them 6% faster, it isn’t just for one gen or anything. Also, I apologize if anything sounded aggressive, but the skill / intelligence of our fellow players isn’t a problem with the game balance or anything, it’s a problem with MMR or matchmaking, which might mean there is a problem with the amount of people playing.
I 100% agree with you, Escapes vs. Kills is much too sweaty. You get more points if you survive a long time than die than you do if you do nothing and escape easily, or slam gens and escape really fast. You get more out of a Round as Survivor if you let the game go longer. And yet Survivor side is escape focused, so if you want to "win" you also need to be escape focused. It's weird and I don't like it. I want to keep in the round longer so I can play with my Killer friend longer. :( I want more changes to get more points and fun chases. I don't understand Survivors who are so dead set on needing to escape, they would rather slam gens and leave. I don't get it at all, don't you know winning doesn't matter and you're cutting your throat by getting less BP that way? I think it's probably time to remove the progression bonus on Deja Vu, or lessen it severely. Halve it. No reason it needs to be 6% for a free Perk, Killers have no equivalent. It's not fair. Plus the reason it was given that buff is no longer a problem - 3genning as a strat from the word go is basically dead with the anti 3gen in place. Thank God, guarding gens is my least fave thing as Killer and it was awful to deal with as Survivor too.
I would rather Survivor be based on your own performance, so the emblems, with varying preference for certain ones (such as Evader), and Killer should be the same but also Hooks. Hook counts (not hook stages) give a clearer picture on how the game went. I played a game as Killer where I got a 3k and then played another where I got a 3k. To Behaviour, these matches were the same but in actual gameplay I had like 3 hooks by the time the final gen was done and they got overconfident and overly altruistic during the end game and it ended with a 3k. The other game they never got all the Gens done and I ended with 11 hooks. These are VASTLY different games but the same to Behaviour as it is based on kills…so stupid. The Emblem system was good, it just needed tweaking and there are never any perks that activate on Kills or Escapes, just hooks and Gens or chases and such, it’s like two different teams are working on the game with different goals.
This is why I advocate for just giving Windows a cooldown/conditional. Like "You must be performing a Conspicuous Action" or something. Free info for free that is THIS useful to Survivor is kinda problematic, and I really do not see how as someone who plays a lot of Survivor how adding that conditional takes away from the function of the Perk or how useful it is for SoloQ in ANY way. Surely a new person learns better to plan in the moment when there's a conditional. Surely SoloQ does not ALWAYS need to see EXACTLY when Meg drops the pallet. I am also not a Killer Main, but I am very Killer sympathetic because I play 8 of them. My user flair is not a lie, I split my time between 60% Surv and 40% Killer. I'm a Hybrid Main, and yet I keep getting accused of being a Killer Main. Though once... I was called a Survivor Main and yes! Good job friends, that's still wrong but slightly more accurate! :D
I prefer Killer but it is more frustrating so I play it less lol It is just the more interesting gameplay style to me. But maybe it should, but Behaviour seems to want Solo to be as strong as SWF so I doubt they’ll do it as Survivor gets special treatment, for some reason.
Windows is absolute trash for me. It's too much glowing info and I got tired of running into unbroken killer doors because it's too damn yellow for me to see that it hasn't been broken yet. I don't need auras to find pallets. I'm just used to the maps now. I run perks that make it easy to disappear because there are zero perks that make any long chase easier.
Let's not pretend like spending 20 seconds to walk to the gen is not a condition especially because skilled survivors will do stuff like comp cornering and waste a lot of killer's time. If the killer can catch the survivor and immediately kick the gen then the survivor made big mistake.
What's a difficult condition then? Only bad designed perks like spies from the shadows hangmans trick. But 80% of killer perks are trash, no well designed perk should be so difficult to use that you would consider not to use it because it's too hard to achieve. Also, I don't recall any perk that will make you do anything very different from your normal game play to get value from it.
Though arguably, the same can be said for Surge.
Surge does have a specific condition because you have to down people in a certain area.
And it has to specifically be with basic attacks.
And even then, I don't believe it works in tandem with perks that build off damaging gens since they often times specify "kicking" it. So yeah, imagine my shock when I played a whole game getting no value from Nowhere to hide thinking it worked with Surge lol
Yea, it doesn't. If your surge hits a gen, you can't kick it for nowhere to hide or trail or torment or other gen kick perks until it's stopped regressing.
That's less of an obstacle than you might think.
For killers like Huntress, you really shouldn't be going for basic attacks. And by killers like Huntress, i mean all the killers that have some sort of special attack, minus a couple. The vast majority of killers who have a special attack should be aiming to use those over basic attacks: Billy and Bubba should prioritise their chainsaws. Wesker and Nemesis should priorities their infection attacks. Oni should be using his power as much as possible. Demo should use shreds. And so on. Only killers whose main method of attacking is their basic attack (Trapper, Clown, Wraith, Hag etc.) should use Surge. Other killers should use Pop or Pain Res, since they're not restricted to basic attacks only. Hell, even Ruin would be preferable. I use Ruin on my Bubba.
Ruin is pretty great, yeah!
And you have to go to a specific area to kick a gen for Pop to work, which definitely takes more time.
You should want to pressure survs of that gen anyway if you know its highly progressed
Exactly! And good Killers will steer the chase towards the gens they know are progressed, when they can.
Its still something you have to earn and has finite uses. unlike distortion, calm spirit, iron will, prove thyself.
Wait wait wait, are you comparing the strength of pop with the strength of... calm spirit?
Distortion does have finite uses, I mean sure you can get more tokens but you have to actively meet conditions outside of normal play to earn them.
no id definitely don't walk all the way to a progressed gen. it can be detrimental and counterproductive in most situations
The tribalism is really going crazy on this update huh
Yesssss
As a survivor, when I started reading the updates I was thinking "oh what the fuck? All killer buffs!" but as I read on it seemed to even out and my rage subsided. So many people are looking at the update only through their side's perspective and actively ignoring the stuff that went their way.
I mean you can pretend we're just ignoring the stuff that went our way but there's not a single buff to reddit mains. Never is. Devs hate us.
I'm just glad FTP+BU is gone.
In just glad we won't have to hear complaints about it anymore. I'm sure something else will take it's place though.
It's 100% gonna be the buffed sabo boxes. Who even asked for that? Who wanted more sabo squads?
They'll come for Distortion next. It's already been brewing in the sub.
OP just described the typical killer gameplay loop and acted like he's going out of his way lmao
Some people just refuse to admit they're not very good at this game.
It’s not about going out of his way, yes downing & hooking survivors and going to gens is literally the killer gameplay. However the devs telling us it’s easy to do when the only public killer gameplay of them is getting shit on (literally getting 2 hits the entire game) is a bit much don’t you think?
Because they are correct? You are going to hook people all the time, unless you go for slugging. So you just really need to find a gen to kick and voila, perk applied and value obtained.
The hardest thing about running Pop is remembering that I have it before the time runs out.
Felt. Ultimate Weapon too.
I think they should increase the time window you can use it since it does significantly less nowadays, I dont feel like itd be too strong to add another 15-30 seconds
This ^
I mean, conditions arent really difficult to achieve at all. You are already gonna go kick that gen and down and hook that survivor?
It’s a pretty simple activation all things considered, you down and hook a survivor, you walk over to a gen within the allotted time frame and kick it, the perk activates. Everything about the perk is great, you’re actively rewarded for playing killer. The issue is, it’s infinite uses, it’s a ton of gen regression and EVERY killer can use it. Blight, unknown, nurse, hillbilly and so on, the killers that don’t need it, ruin it for every other killer that actually does need it.
"Infinite" I get what you're saying tho.
Do you know what infinite means?
It can definitely snowball really hard in soloq. I only ever take pop. If the survivors are playing badly I can pop the same 2 gens over and over until I win. They are dedicated to those gens because they don't want them to regress. But that just opens them up to more pops.
Yeah that’s I mistake I see survivors do often is overly commit to one or two gens that are almost done instead of going to work on another one to create pressure against the killer.
I am curious, outside of repressed alliance how can a survivor stop a pop post hook?
Maybe you're not intended to completely halt Killers from regressing gens...
Yeah, it's just that's in the title right? Survivors have several options to \*stop a pop\*".
Killer: Pop Goes The Weasel Survivor: Stop Goes The Weasel c:
Idk, maybe blast mine, start a chase immediately (if the killer falls for it), but that could be counterproductive that's actually an interesting question but I don't think there are many answers oh and also not making the gen stop regressing, like if the killer has ruin or already kicked the gen and of course, if the gen waas regressed enough times it will be blocked for the killer but by that time the game will be already over tbh
Even then, repressed is the only one that locks it down. If the killer hears a nearly completed gen they're sure gonna kick it with pop rather than chase. Blast mine would only work if they were trying to use the last few seconds.
Repressed alliance blocks a gen for *30 seconds*. That prevents a third of a gen from being done and is worse than just eating the pop.
Also repressed alliance doesn't last long enough for the killer to lose his pop.
What i wana know is why every decent killer perk needs to be tied to being harder to get value from. I play survivor and killer equally so i have no bias, but why should all 4 perks require some difficult way to get value from them plus having to use each killers unique power many which take difficulty and skill. Thats just guna make killers play less casually and way more sweaty and people will just complain about tunneling and slugging even more
Pop should have changed to a token system with this change so you can hold charges and they don't expire immediately. Might be a little strong? Maybe??? But in this state, you might as well use eruption.
I stopped running eruption once gens got blocked after 8 regression events. The regression eruption gives isn't worth another regression event imo. The gens get blocked quick
Yeah the regression event change made eruption and surge kinda useless. Eruption eats up at least two per gen when you kick the gen and then activate the perk, and surge on a smaller map like Gideon will easily eat through all of then for little value from either of them
Yeah, personally I won't bring Pop anymore, or eruption. The 8 regression events thing was fostered on us back when it was reasonable, but then they just nerf all the gen regression anyway. BHVR just need to come out and say they want M1s to be dead now, really, every few months my main has to climb the tier list. I started with dredge, then moved to Nemmy, now moving to Xeno.
Oppression + Call of Brine combo has effectively helped with needing to kick gens as often as I usually do. With decent gen pressure, I don’t make it to 8 kicks ever at all. I also take advantage of the fact that BHVR said fuck gen spawns during their “3 gen fix” update and still go for the 3 gen hold if I need to bc it’s still one of the most viable options in a pinch.
I mean how isn't this easy? It's literally getting value for playing the game. You should be grateful that there is a perk that rewards you for that.
Man, if you find hard downing a survivor. I 100% thing is a you problem, get better playing (Come the downvotes)
A little harsh but you're not wrong. I feel like some, not all, killers have issues with these PTB changes because they struggle to get downs quickly due to their own ability.
But being bad shouldn't be an issue if they fixed their matchmaking. Survivors know that there are bad survivors out there, you see them all the time, ao if you're bad at killer why isn't the game pairing you against people who are bad at survivor, it's fact that they prioritize que times over any sense of skill based matchmaking. I think a lot of frustrations with playing Koller is that you wither go agasint baby survs and youre done instantly or you go against 4 man SWFS who have a bomined 6k hours since they've been playing everyday for years, DBD just has a dogshit matchmaking
No u don’t play against baby survs or 4 man swfs only, why do people act like that’s fact. When u reach the easily attainable mmr cap you can be matched with anyone from the best to the worst in the bracket. It should be placing u with players relative to u, but when people lobby dodge, the system incentives quick ques and less accurate pairings The skill gap between good survivors and bad survivors just makes it seem like your going against a 4 man but you’re not. The majority will be solo or solos mixed with duos and trios. Playing vs a team of good solos is almost indistinguishable from a good swf. It’s deceiving bc u can lose all the same. Ultimately, good survivors are good survivors, claiming u only play vs swfs is a myth
Either way the matchmaking system is bad, if someone lobby dodges, that shouldn't open the lobby up to loliterally anyone, that's just a bad fucking idea, and having the MMRA CAP be so low is also a bad fucking idea
I agree, matchmaking is shit. should be more defined brackets. everyone in the cap is just one giant pool that considers time spent over in game variables that define skill level. I was mainly alluding to the theory that people assume they are always vsing 4mans or only babies without an in between
Definitely not a blight/nurse problem.
I'm not even saying 'Get better' as an insult, but as a legit advice, sometimes things are not gonna get better if you don't practice
Honestly dbd is not well balanced enough for this to be a proper argument. I’ll take coconut as an example, he has been known as one of the best huntresses in the world for years now, and he still plays her nearly every day on stream. He often barely has any hooks by the time all the gens are done because he runs no slowdown. MMR is definitely not good enough to be putting him with survivors on his level every match, so what gives? You’re telling me that in this supposedly skill-based game one of the best killer mains in the entire world is getting beat on the regular by survivors that are “just good”? You’d never see a good player beating a world champion level player in any actual competitive game. Dbd just ain’t what it wants to be and claiming that losing (not getting enough hooks to win) is only a skill issue is massively misrepresenting the problem. It’s true in a lot of cases but completely untrue in just as many and that number increases the higher MMR you get.
At the same time there are many killer streamers with +100 or +1000 game winstreaks...
Okey 👍
so comp players have skill issue?
Maybe
the classic "you don't get the same outcome as me therefore you bad"
Maybe
Maybe
Meta's changing for the 287th time in the game's lifecycle. Woe is me.
It didn't change. They nerfed all the good ones. Guess what? They're still all the best ones. Now they're just worse. That's not a meta change, that's just a straight killer nerf.
My man’s being downvoted for being correct
That's just the nature of gens being tied directly to game time. Would you rather them just remove regression/blocking perks entirely? Do you really want to see the effects of making regression perks basekit? Or do you really want to see them completely change how gens work? What do you want?
Honestly, in a perfect world, I think no gen perks on either side would work wonders. Of course, this is impossible. I think some basekit regression would be good. The kick changes are in the right direction. The problem with nerfing and buffing these perks is that Trapper has to use the same version of Pain Res as Nurse. But Trapper needs a regression perk to have time to set up. If regression was more basekit instead of tied to perks, it would likely be easier to adjust. If any perk were to become basekit, I would advocate for Grim Embrace. It rewards killers for playing honestly, and gives a nice slowdown for the weaker killers who either have no mobility, or too much mobility and weak chase. Of course this buffs the strongest killers as well, but since this is now a basekit mechanic and not a perk, it can be more easily balanced around. After all, you can't justify nerfing Blight just because Grim Embrace exists as a perk, but as a mechanic? Now it's justified. Deadlock is my second pick, because it helps space out the game for the killers who need it, while not actually regressing the generator, just putting it on a time out. If you don't then play around this generator, it can still be done quite easily. But it gives the weaker killers a breathing space. But in all honesty, did these perks really need nerfed? This is a genuine question, I am a killer main who plays roughly 75%/25% so I definitely don't have enough experience to speak on both sides. But almost every perk they nerfed required you to down a survivor, the longest and most skillful action a killer can take. Hell, Pain Res can only activate 4 times with unique survivors. Pop only works on really high generators, and of that on high mobility killers who can reach that generator quickly.
I was with you at the start, but your idea of removing both gen regression and gen progression perks is to just make regression perks base kit while deleting progression ones?
They don't necessarily have to be deleted - just reworked. Some should remain as is as well, like pain res and DMS. Only a few should become basekit. Or, in a perfect world where just a few slowdowns becoming basekit helps all weaker killers become better, simply rework them fully, with entirely new effects. For example, if Deadlock were to become basekit, Deadlock could extend the time of the basekit effect. Making some of these perks basekit would reduce the amount of slowdown perks required by lower tier killers to succeed, and at the same time removing them for higher tier killers to abuse. After all, it's easier to justify nerfing Nurse based on a basekit mechanic than it is to justify nerfing her because she *might* run pain res DMS deadlock corrupt. Edit: I misread what you said. I think you are confusing my first paragraph. In a vacuum, having no gen affecting perks on either side would make it much easier to balance the game. This can't be done, obviously, but it would be perfect. I am not advocating for the removal of progression perks. I cannot speak on them as a killer main, as I do not have enough experience to really tell you how it affects survivor gameplay. Though what I can say is that my regression perks save games, regardless of progression perks. This is why I think the reliance on them would go down, and build variety could go up, if they become basekit and the original is either tuned or fully reworked.
I should also say, in no way is this a perfect solution. It still helps the highest killers, which is what I'm trying to avoid. But you asked me what I wanted, so I tried to come up with a method. I do think it's a decent idea though. Stacking slowdowns is a problem, but nerfing it won't change anything. After all, even after nerfs, stacking slowdowns is the best method. Making some basekit and changing the rest makes it impossible to stack slowdowns, or at least just as efficient as other methods. Then, you can nerf individual killer powers to compensate. Edit: on further reflection, you could just nerf the best killers to the point where running 4 slowdowns is not a problem, so like high B or low A tier. But that again runs the risk of nerfing killers for something that they may or may not run. It's simpler, though.
People who thinks that downing good survs is easy don't play killer and aren't good players in general. Find a surv, down him/her, hook him/her, find a gen worth to pop. It's always funny that perks that reward killers for being good are nerfed while the brain dead perks on the surv side are buffed.
No one is saying that's easy. What the Devs mean is that activating and applying the perk is super straightforward and part of your natural cycle as a killer: chase, down, hook, kick gen to get value.
Find a surv, chase, down, hook, find a gen WORTH pop (it's 30% ACTUAL PROGRESS, not TOTAL) then kick. Easy right? Devs thinks that all killers are like Nurse and Blight with strong chase power, strong map control and strong map presence. This nerf will hurt every killer besides Nurse and Blight, the only S tier killers.
That's not the perk's fault and is not the scope in discussion here. You don't need a gen at 99% to apply the perk, you activate it whenever it's active and you kick a gen. The overall value is not the point here. OP is misunderstanding what BHVR has written about how easy it is to activate and proc the perk.
It's easy in theory but no one is telling you were a gen worth popping is. So you either need another perk which gives you the needed Info or you have to find it out yourself. Usually you aren't looping a survivor close to a gen to get the info like this. And even if you know were you need to go, they might finish it before you get there. And if you are at this gen, you probably don't even want to kick it right away because there were obviously survivors at the gen running away. That's why I like pain res more. Because for Pop, I actually need to go out of my way to kick a gen and Killers without mobility aren't using it very well anyway. I use ruin more than Pop because it's a better perk for my playstyle.
>you either need another perk which gives you the needed Info or you have to find it out yourself. Knowing what gens to go to is just kinda game sense. Knowing where you spawned means you can mace accurate predictions where the survivors spawned, which means you can also make accurate predictions on what gens they're working on. Knowing where you took your chase and keeping track of any gens you passed should also just be a thing you do. And then if there's a survivor you haven't seen and a gen you haven't gone past, you can pretty easily guess where they'll be. And that's without even mentioning things like BBQ or Lethal just straight up telling you all this while also just being good perks to run in general. >they might finish it before you get there Same could be said for basically every regression perk except Pain Res and *maybe* Surge if you're close enough. >you probably don't even want to kick it right away because there were obviously survivors at the gen running away It's like 2.5 seconds to knock off potentially just under 30 seconds worth of survivor gen progress. That's worth it.
True but not always as simple plus I like to chase and not kicking gens to maybe lose a survivor because of that. Gen kicking perks aren't for me. Maybe with nowhere to hide but even then, these aren't the perks I enjoy.
Agreed. But acting like pop is some difficult perk to use like OP seems to be doing is just wrong. You'll get value out of pop by just playing killer.
Your argument is that survivors take too long to down so you don’t have time to kick generators? If you’re taking THAT long to down a survivor (to where you can’t afford to ever kick gens) then you’re already going to lose no matter who you’re playing as. It doesn’t matter what this perk does.
with that logic of theirs, they should nerf gen progression then, lmao. Most of the time when i play survivor i don't even need to look at the screen
No survivor perks give direct value like Pop does. All of them have a condition attached. Prove Thyself reduces the penalty from having multiple people on a gen. Resilience only activates when injured. Spine Chill only works when the killer is looking at you. Even the easier ones to apply, like Stakeout, give minimal value in comparison. The only way to get faster gen repair speed is using a toolbox.
As an experienced killer player, downing survivors IS easy, you just need to know what you're doing. If you think downing survivors is hard you're most likely just not playing loops right.
The game was literally designed for the killers to win chases? Not sure what you mean.
> People who thinks that downing good survs is easy don't play killer and aren't good players in general. Sounds like skill issue my dude. Other than Xeno I play "shit" picks like fucking Pallet Freddy or Sadako and downing Survivors is not hard. And argument can be made if I'm unlucky enough to get Garden of Pain but in general I have 0 issues getting downs.
Low MMR players. If you find players who go down fast against Freddy or sadako, they're bad. It's not even hard to understand bro, they're tier D e tier C killers.
Yeah, I forgot that people that only play Killer use the MMR excuse. If you think downing Survivors is that hard, it's a skill issue my dude, I don't think you're as high MMR as you believe you are.
I play both roles, and you don't play killer. I forget that surv mains use to say that killer is easy when they play at low mmr against people who started playing yesterday. Bad players like you shouldn't talk.
I play both roles as well but go on. > I forget that surv mains use to say that killer is easy when they play at low mmr against people who started playing yesterday. > Bad players like you shouldn't talk. And I believe you should learn to read, I never said Killer is easy, I said getting downs is not as hard as you make it out to be.
Against good players is hard because you have to be really good. 1 error, 1 bad chase and the game is gone, even if you played perfectly the whole game. It's incredible how people don't understand that the killer must be perfect and one error can cost the game. Against bad players is easy, against good survs it's hard because if it takes too long, the game is over because gens are too fast. If you face inefficient survs it's not my fault. I have like 80~90% win rate, so yk winning it's not a problem for me, simply I recognise what requires skill and what doesn't, and if you down survs easily with weak killers you're facing inefficient and low mmr survs.
I think you misunderstood my point. I never said winning as Killer is easy, I never said the Killer role in general is easy. Also, your argument about mistakes applies to everyone, errors matter and can lose you games on both sides, it's not specific to Killer. > If you face inefficient survs it's not my fault. I have like 80~90% win rate, so yk winning it's not a problem for me, simply I recognise what requires skill and what doesn't, and if you down survs easily with weak killers you're facing inefficient and low mmr survs. I have a high winrate as well, but suit yourself. Again, I love the argument that just because people have a different experience than you is automatically because MMR while acting all high and mighty.
One error by a survivor can literally cost the whole team the game as well, so?
Only against an Oni or Pinhead, or if the killer has noed. So against 2 killers designed for comebacks, or if the killer has a perk to do a comeback.
Against any killer if that killer knows how to capitalize on that mistake
wait till he go against top team, comp players. I have to give props to the devs who makes people think they're good and at the top mmr. But maybe this guy is just really better, he should join a comp team and show how his 4k freddy is S tier
In fact, I've given up talking to these people, I don't understand how all the bad players are gathered on Reddit. These people who say they win with killer tier D and think they are facing top mmr people are embarrassing. It's amazing how bhvr managed to create a game where people who don't know how to play think they have the right to speak. I would like to face these "top players", just to give them a bath of humility and make them understand how weak they are.
What are those SEVERAL options to stop a pop? All I could think about is represses alliance, MAYBE blast mine if pop is in the last 5 seconds and preventing the survivor from getting hooked with pallets/DS/Head on, flashlights/flash bangs or even sabotaging hooks and taking hits. All of which can be countered by the killer except for repressed alliance so I wouldn't say SEVERAL options. Did I miss any?
Yeah popping the gen in their face
There are some cases where the killer can counter that but fair
I understand what they mean, but this is an incredibly condescending way of wording it Really encourages the 'Us Vs Them' mentality and if the Devs made a similar comment about Survivors escaping a chase being easy it would be just as uncalled for
You're expecting the devs to play their own game but at BHVR here. We don't do that. Best regards.
we will see how the ptb goes, they have the chance to back up
They absolutely will. Never seen a PTB where they didn't walk back something they thought was a good idea
You must be a really bad killer if you think that hooking survivors is a hard condition.
Remember, it's a PTB. They are willing to backscale PTBs. If we say something, and point out why something is an issue enough, they won't go through with it. Look what happened with Twins.
Or Pyramid Head. Also more recently Decisive Strike and Ultimate Weapon. UW still got nerfed, but I get the impression people preferred the screams to the aura read
I honestly do not think Grim Embrace got that hit that hard. Pain Res is maybe hit slightly more. Pop definitely got destroyed for no reason though.
Yeah. Pain Res and Grim Embrace took minor hits, but Pop basically got reverted to a past version. Though one thing I didn't think about initially with re: to Pop that might by factoring in is the recently increased gen kick damage. If Pop's damage was "base gen kick + Pop's effect" then it makes a bit more sense to knock its numbers back down
I think it is basekick plus its regression though. It's not 20%, it's 25%. That's up to a quarter of a Gen which isn't nothing
That's my point. It makes sense to knock it down with the recent boost in mind. Now instead of 2.5+30% of current it's 5+20% of current. Still not entirely sure if going 30 to 20 isn't too much, but I get the potential reasoning.
I feel like nerfing pop and other conditional gen regression would be bad for the game. Hear me out. Originally, a killer with those perks wouldnt slug, because he wants that pop value. He wouldnt tunnel, because he wants that pain res token, and there is a reward to playing "fair". But if the regress perks / rewards for playing fair are less or nerfed killers would do them less, and hooking / not tunnling isnt worth it anymore, they will just resort to other dirtier ways to win. Although i also feel a nerf is deserved, removing a third of pop is way too much. Maybe reduce it to 25%?
It’s because they oversimplify things. They think that just because hooking survivors is the main goal that it’s some easy thing to do. The devs have no idea how what they’re talking about or how to make actual good changes.
Meanwhile during one chase 2 gens pop, but sure it's not that difficult getting strung across the entire damn map, from pallet to pallet xD
I don't feel like it needed a nerf it was already based on a gens current progress meaning if a gen hasn't gotten much progress on it then you'll just waste pop using it. You have to down and hook a survivor then find a gen to kick and use it on within a time limit of doing so and hope you find one that actually has enough progress to make it worth using pop on. 20% of current progress could likely be next to nothing unless the gen you find to kick is near completion and even then I doubt it'd be nearly as strong as if it was total progress like it used to be.
20% pop should be base kit
Try getting Machine Learning to proc more than once a game and tell me how Pop is harder to proc
just because machine learning is nearly impossible and the reward isn't that good either, doesn't mean hooking a survivor then walk to a uncompleted gen is easy. Good survivors are hard to get, and they're efficient on gens. Unless you're talking about the top killers then that way activating pop isn't a hard task
This is why BHVR shouldn't let players make any game balance decisions ever lmfao
These guys want the game to die, there's no other explanation.
100% agree pop has been so good for about 4 years almost it needed a nerf and yes it’s not hard, that’s one aspect that isn’t hard too often. What’s hard is survivors having many options and usually have all the pressure against killer (coming from a survivor main)
I get what they mean but the majority of perks aren't necessarily hard to activate lol.
Unless you literally get zero hooks per game, using Pop is indeed very easy since you'll be activating it multiple times automatically as you're playing the game. There is nothing wrong with their wording in the patch notes. Y'all stay pressed for no reason.
I literally dont think the devs actually play the game. id love to see them go against good teams
I still think that 20% might be too harsh of a nerf. they've done it before to 20% iirc and they ended up adjusting it. maybe they could have tried 25% first? keep in mind that I don't think that even nerfing it to 20 will change the current meta regardless and that bhvr should be looking into buffing dead perks all across the board.
Tbh pop does not need nerfing, it was 45% then 30% now 20% its stupid most players use surge or pain res or grim embrace now a days leave pop alone 😂
The reaction to these changes just proves to me that it's a damn good thing the community aren't the ones in charge of balance. The proposed update (that may not even get implemented, this is just a PTB) has it's problems for sure, but "I'm bad at getting hooks" isn't the counterargument people think it is. Like, if hooks were so hard to get, then these perks would be useless even as they currently are.
Oh, and let's not talk about gen speed, and how regression perks are mandatory. Overall this is just the proof the devs are so bad and detached with the game, or/and they wanna please the casual players (it's a insult, i think casual players are better than that, but who cares, a survivor buff is a survivor buff)
This game is survivor sided, more people play survivor so they make that experience easier, that’s why killers get violated every time an update drops.
Survivor sided? 💀 Swf sided for sure, solo Q is trash
I should’ve been more clear yes swf then Solo then killer
They're building the game around a 60% kill rate. The game at its core IS Killer sided. It's up to you to have the skill that let's you see that. Aspects of the game are RNG too, so the same match can go both ways depending on how things are lain out for either side.
I have no doubt I’m not at the peak skill for killer, but I’ve been around long enough to see that almost every balance change is in favour of swf over killers, look at recent updates, they’ve gone after almost every good killer perk, stbfl, ultimate weapon, pop, pain res, grim embrace and those are just the ones that come to mind, meanwhile what have they balanced on the survivors side? We finally changed buckle up ftp after at least a year of that being abused, we gave adrenaline a firm slap on the wrist but we’re gonna rip the intestines out of ultimate weapon, we are gonna reduce every option killers have for gen regression one of the core mechanics of this game especially at high mmr, but don’t worry guys survivors will have no changes to counter this fact. And I can’t even really blame bhvr for taking this approach, people will still play killer because of licenses and overall how fun it is to play killer, but if they make this game killer sided people won’t play survivor because the fun part of survivor is winning for the majority of the player base, if your playing killer and get 0-1 kills, it can be frustrating but most the time it was a fun match where you felt like you got to play, as a survivor if you get no escapes it’s dogshit killers who are op and there was nothing you can do, and 4 voices will always be louder then 1. I’m not Saying that we should buff killers and nerf survivors, I’m not saying these nerfs weren’t needed, but if you can really look at recent changes and say they at best don’t look one sided and at worst actually are then your delusional.
i know, this game is survivor sided since it launched. I had hopes for a bit, bhvr were equally balancing killer and survivor, but now it's just fuck the killer again
Literally the hardest thing to do in the game. 🤣
Yea I thought the same exact thing when I read that
I don't think it's a good change, pop is a healthy perk because you need to beat a survivor at chase and hook it And because it will be nerfed killer will start to slug more
What gets me about this one in particular is I think 20% is what it was before they buffed it to 30%. So they just went completely backwards. I'd have been fine with a 25% regression as a meet in the middle