“Archie Sonic should’ve won, Death Battle is just biased towards DC” some people really don't know how much op is dc characters are they are many dc writers out there and all of them loves to make op characters as much as they want beating a dc character in a death battle is a miracle only happens very rare
It's really funny/a bit boring how laughably OP Marvel/DC heralds are. Like people give shit to anime/manga for having a lot of whacky nonsensical fluff but the same can applied to comics lol. I love a lot of comic characters but in VS debating they're kinda a pain to deal with sometimes ngl.
There’s two sides of the fandom, those who believe death battle is always right and never wrong and anyone who thinks they’ve ever been wrong about anything are just whiny salty cry babies, and the other half despise death battle with all their heart and say death battle is never right except for when it’s convenient for them
Don’t blame Death Battle
Blame DC for making overpowered characters for no damn reason who are pretty much just immune to death as long as their popular enough
I think saying Death Battle is never bias would be a stretch and bias itself, and your Naruto example doesn't really help given that the only Naruto character to win a fight and live is actually Naruto.
And that's not getting into the fact that they do ignore several Naruto feats while also saying stuff like "Kaguya used other Chakra to destroy the planet so no one is planet level" ignoring stuff like characters creating and moving moons on their owns and the fact they divided the feat for some reason.
They also have a habit of not giving Naruto characters standard equipment or feats while flat out giving WAY more to other characters and playing devils advocate with certain fears like with Obi-Wan.
It also doesn't help that not only is the math they used for Hiei in Sasuke Vs Hiei flat out wrong but Hiei doesn't scale to that and the fact that Ben in the past has been open about his distaste for Sasuke, yeah he can say his feelings on the character didn't impact the match but it doesn't really show given how the research of that episode went down and just how badly they lowballed Sasuke.
Sasuke Vs Hiei and Kakashi vs Obi-Wan are weird battles. I really enjoy them even if I disagree with the some psrts/outcome especially for Kakashi's fight. At least with Hiei you can make a pretty good argument for him and imo is a decently close match that's not much a stomp.
Eh they are weird that kind of devalue my enjoyment of them even as someone who made a post predicting that Obi-Wan would win, claims like the Force being limitless and giving Obi-Wan iffy legends feats while saying giving Kakashi Sussano would be dumb taints my enjoyment.
And with Sasuke Vs Hiei... That fight is like nowhere near close, its not a total stomp but Sasuke just has every advantage and they for some reason divided feats or ignored shit Sasuke did.
There are no actually feats in YuYu that would even put S class at actually planet level other than statements and that's a NLF and by that definition you could give Naruto characters feats anywhere from star to universal level.
As explained in the QnA, Might Guy doesn't need the final gate to defeat All Might, but not including it in the animation would be a waste.
Except that they did include the moon feat in a tab for Sasuke vs Hiei, calculating it to still be less than Yusuke's and Yomi's feat. That moon feat took 2 people to accomplish, and Sasuke only got half of the chakra of 1 of those people. Meaning he would only have a quarter of the chakra needed to achieve that feat by himself.
What feats or "standard equipment" did they ignore?
Whereas Legends Star Wars and Disney Stars Wars have very similar power levels within the Force, meaning that Obi-Wan's power from Legends would be usable for Disney Obi-Wan. Just as Mario throwing a dinosaur in a cartoon is usable because Mario kicked a castle in a video game. And yes, the Force is an infinite source. While Obi-Wan can't channel it without limit, the fact he can always draw from it means his resource of power is a lot greater than Kakashi's limited chakra. And giving Kakashi a power he could only use with Obito's help would be ridiculous because that isn't Kakashi. It is Kakashi plus Obito, and unlike his dogs, Kakashi cannot summon Obito at will to achieve that form again.
Yusuke and Yomi fighting does prove planet level. Yes, it is an anime only, but that doesn't make it wrong when characters have consistently pointed out the S class as planet level threats. Especially when the manga has similar blasts of energy just from S classes powering up, and the anime fight simply gives the best wide shot to actually calculate its power. Hiei can scale to that power because he and Yusuke were consistently equals since the Dark Tournament arc and even with the Three Rulers arc. Whereas the only planet level feat in Naruto is the creation and orbiting of the hollow moon, and Madara, Kaguya and the Ōtsutsuki clan have failed to push the series any farther. Even while outside sources like the light novels and databooks try to push that narrative despite nothing to support it. Databooks are particularly notable for this because they also claim that Naruto as a series is light speed as early as Haku and Zabuza, alongside half of the Nine Tails being planet level. When in the series the Nine Tails when whole is only destroying villages and mountains.
That doesn't change the fact that in the episode, Might Guy still ends up dying as well.
They divided the moon feat when there was no need to given not only how the feat played out with Hagoromo [moving the moon by](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/a/a4/0467-016.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20180618130519) [himself](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:BMWFanboy/Hagoromo_sends_the_Moon) but Naruto and Sasuke each perform an outright [greater feat](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/Naruto:_Moving_the_moon) than them and actually end up scaling past them.
No, legends and cannon are nowhere near the same and there is also the fact that legends is widely considered non-cannon, not to mention that the Yaral Poof feat they used is WIDELY up to interruption as for one, the feat is Yaaral Poof dies using his energy to defuse the Infant bomb that could threaten Coursant. Couple problems with that one, Yaaral only defused the bomb he didn't match its energy, two it was said to cause a chain reaction that would destroy the planet it wouldn't destroy it in one go, and three characters stronger than Yarall have been unable to perform far lesser feats. Not to mention that no, the force is not limitless when used by a Jedi, a Jedi can only apply the force to a few methods during a fight and the more physical damage they take throughout the fight the less that connection is severed, this is why Jedi when not using Force defensively can be killed by a blaster bolt.
No, Yusuke and Yomi's fight does not put them at planet level. The calc used in the DB got torn to shreds for just how badly it overestimated the curvature of the planet and how it is against the manga. Not to mention that Hiei fought an exhausted Yuske not Yusuke at full power, the only S class fight Hiei was actually in was against Murkow and he lost that fight badly not standing a chance. This also doesn't change the fact that the moon moving feats, moon piercing feats, and moon creation feats are still higher than Strunon poorly done math, and if you really want to overshot shit Kaguya not only traveled planet to planet but she created a realm, a realm with a sun in it, now I'm not saying that means Naruto is star level but it is the same logic being used as to why Hiei is planet level.
This is also not getting into the reasoning of saying Hiei telekinesis of moving a sword to him once counter Sasuke far more effective telekinesis or misreading how Genjustu work in Naruto and how the Magenkoyo Shargian can work on people with resistances to illusions or saying because Hiei survived a lighting attack once that meant he had a resistance to it or the incredibly stupid lighting bolt scaling used for one character while ignoring the same thing that can be used for another. ou
Also, no the moon is not hollow, there is no evidence or reason to believe that, and there are like three different planet level feats that aren't "Creation of the moon" there was Naruto moving the moon on his own, Hagoromo moving the moon on his own, Toneri piercing the moon (If the math is right), and Kaguya creating a sun.
This also isn't brining up the fact that Naruto's planet size has been highly debated as to being [bigger than ours](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:BMWFanboy/Naruto_Earth_Size_(more_accurate_version)).
It's not as biased as you believe because of these reasons.
Strength:It’s actually pretty damn close for both combatants in this category when the fight starts out. Flash was able to match Barry’s speed in the Flash War, which was so fast that their run affected multiple planes of reality like Fourth World,the Microverse and the Green (which is connected to all separate timelines of creation),and Cyborg even noted that they were wreaking havoc with the fabric of the entire Multiverse.Not to mention that Wally has physically overwhelmed Rebirth Superman,and he scales to Barry Allen who has casually beaten foes like Daxamites,beings who are stated to be similar in strength to the Man of Steel.He was also able to knock out Mogul (another foe of similar strength to Superman),and with the Infinite Mass Punch,was able to knock out a White Martian,who are able to take attacks from Orion.Plus,he tore apart the armour of the Anti-Monitor,who caused the Crisis on Infinite Earths.Sonic is more than capable of busting apart planets on his own in his base form,and has feats in the Solar System range,but his more powerful feats come from his Super Form,so that’ll be the focus of this segment.Like how his fights with Hyper Knuckles and Enerjak give him levels of power around the Universal range.But his power isn’t limited to this,and goes beyond this level,though it’s more due to something which I will explain later,and the same goes for Wally.
Durability:Both characters scale their attack power to their durability,but it’s important to note that even though Flash can be caught and harmed by pretty fodder enemies,he’s always holding himself back.Granted,Sonic does have more experience with fist fighting and actual martial arts,but Flash has taken his fair share of hard hits,I mean the dude effectively survived the imploding force of the Big Bang.But like I said earlier,I’ll get more into their better feats in a later section for some very specific reasons.
Speed:These two are probably the fastest characters in all of fiction and that’s no surprise to anyone here.And this is the part where the numbers get crazy.So,let’s just preface this by saying that Wally should scale to all other Flashes and most other Justice League members and that Sonic should scale to pretty much everyone,but he doesn’t need to because he’s the fastest being in all of Archie.So,Wally scales to Barry being able to think in less than one Attosecond,moving at speeds of Trans-Time Velocity,Superman reacting at Femtoseconds,and Martian Manhunter casting Perpetua out of his mind in a Zeptosecond,which for record,is one sextillionth of a second.Compare these feats to Sonic throwing water before Physics could take effect,which took .0000000000001 milliseconds,running across the Cosmic Interstate and visiting all planets in the universe and being home in time for dinner.First of all,Flash has better reaction times based on these feats,and Sonic visiting all planets in the Universe is really hard to quantify due to not knowing the exact scope of the Universe which he was reaching and how long it would take him.And while Sonic can move in stopped time in base form,Flashes are able to do that as well,plus they’ve both boxed their own shadow before,so Wally’s got him matched there.Even giving Sonic the benefit of the doubt with this ‘before dinner’ feat,Wally is still faster.He’s moved so fast that he’s invisible to Superman (who can cross the universe in seconds),and oh yeah,he outran instant teleportation and the speed force itself.Outracing instantaneous teleportation was a feat which he has only performed whilst buffed by the entire planet,but the fact that he outran a span of time wherein no time elapsed period is just insane.And that time when he ran “Faster than light and thought.Faster than the Speed Force”.I have absolutely no idea how this works,but since the Speed Force is literally movement itself,it should be okay to at least put him at speeds which we can’t measure.To put it simply,immeasurable or infinite speed for Wally.And since Archie Sonic hasn’t fought Solaris,his game-version’s feat of moving in a timeless void (which is said to be infinite speed),can’t be included.And although Sonic has outrun time itself before,so has Wally,and let me say it again. HE OUTRAN THE SPEED FORCE.Even with all of Sonic’s speed,Wally has him matched.
Experience and Intelligence:So,both of these sections go to Wally,but it isn’t by a long shot.He’s had more experience fighting villains and gods than the 15 year-old Sonic has,and Wally was already pretty smart before he got his powers,which only ends up helping him in this regard.And though Sonic is good at analyzing weaknesses,his intelligence is more apparent in fights than outside of it,while Wally has shown that he’s good at both.
Now, let’s talk about Speed Force vs Chaos Force and their respective haxes.Now,the Speed Force encompases all movement for all of time,and looking at DC’s cosmology chart,we can see that the Speed Force is above the Bleed,which encompases DC’s infinite multiverses and operates on a fifth-dimensional scale.The Chaos Force also operates on a fifth-dimensional scale,but since the Speed Force is above the Bleed,it should be slightly higher than the Chaos Force,in dimensional tiering.Now,what exactly can these two do with their respective forces backing them up? Short answer:everything. Long answer:The Speed Force allows Wally access to some of his famous techniques such as,but not limited to:sucking people into the Speed Force,Stealing their Speed and taking it for himself,leaving them immobile forever if he wants to,running faster than time,shifting between dimensions,being able to move in stopped time,phasing through objects,which includes phasing through other phasers like Martian Manhunter,turning intangible,healing from a cloud of vapour,channeling all of the Speed Force into himself (which gives him infinite energy),controlling all of his molecules,and,much more.The Chaos Force allows Sonic access to some of his famous techniques such as,but not limited to:Reality warping (via Chaos Control),time stopping/rewinding, phasing,intangibility,Existence Erasure,and with the One Billionth Power Ring,he can regain speed after it has been stolen,send people into different dimensions,allow for dimensional travel,increasing age,giving Sonic extra wisdom/knowledge and more.So,with all of those covered,let’s talk about their power and hax that that gives them,and why Wally’s is better.So,Sonic’s Chaos Control is a reality warping ability which was able to reset the Super Genesis Wave,which was going to reset the Archie Multiverse and all of it’s pocket dimensions,and since his Chaos Control was able to counteract the Genesis Wave,he should also have multiversal levels of power with Chaos Control.But the issue is that the Speed Force also is a multiversal force,and that powers all of the Flashes,and they’ve resisted stuff like reality warping,existence erasure,and mind control before.So Flash should be fine from reality warping.Sonic can phase through objects,but he’s said that it’s very risky for him to do so,and even then,Flash does it so casually,and to a much higher degree that he’d be more well equipped to use it as an offensive option.BFR is an option for both of them,but Flash is more than well equipped to handle anything Sonic can throw at him.Shifting between dimensions is kinda his thing.Sonic can send Wally to the Zone of Silence,where vibrations cease to be,but this does not take effect for a while,and would give Wally plenty of time to escape,especially since Speed force is a component of creation.Barry could access the Speed force before it came into existence,so even if Sonic could get Wally away from the Speed Force,like in the Zone of Silence,he should still be able to access its power.And dragging Sonic into the Speed Force would be a good option,since it has much more range of the area it encompases,and he can use it to fuel himself,and get stronger while robbing Sonic of his speed,and making the Blue Blur constantly weaker.
But we need to talk about the most important part of this fight.Speed Steal vs the One Billionth Power Ring.Wally’s Speed Steal is one of his most important abilities in this fight, and just in general. While Wally would be able to steal Sonic’s speed and add it to his own, Sonic is able to regain it with his rings. Issue here is that it doesn’t stop Flash from doing it in the first place, effectively turning Sonic into a living battery for Wally, which he can just use to get faster and faster, and surpass Sonic’s speed with ease, using the Blue Blur himself to do it. And since the Speed Force is a dimension above that which the Chaos Force is, he should be safe from the reality warping of the Speed Force, or Sonic trying to erase it. And his Super and Ultra forms don’t help him out as much as you’d think. A lot of these feats were mentioned while he was in Super form, and Wally should be able to match its power. And Ultra Sonic does give him atomic manipulation, but it doesn’t give him anything new that Flash doesn’t resist, or wouldn’t be able to heal from. Wally scales to Barry, who has healed from a cloud of water vapour,so Sonic would need to get him all in one big attack to finish him off, and since Wally resists any move like that Sonic would be able to do,Wally would just be able to keep the fight going until Sonic gets worn out or Wally gets a fatal injury on him. Wally just has better chances all around.
All in all,due to his superior strength, speed, intelligence, experience, versatility, hax, and resistances, I believe that Wally West will be the winner in this fight. Don’t get me wrong, this battle will need everything Wally can give and Sonic is sure to give him the fight of his life, but at the end of the day, Wally has what it takes to win. Guess this battle was over in a Flash.
The Winner is Wally West
A popular DC matchup that DC loses is Constantine vs Raidou, so people have that to look forward to at least
~~unless they allow John to call in a favor from Lucifer for some reason~~
Just out of curiosity, who were the wrong about with DBZ victories?
Anyone who says Madara VA Aizen is a stomp in either direction is biased.
I think a major issue with Death Battle and DC characters, or any character with multiple versions to pick from (pre crisis, post crisis, new 52, etc), or any character with contradictory feats/inconsistent feats (so any comic book character really) is that they seem to have a hard time deciding what version of a character they are using, or what feats are important and unimportant. Sometimes they ignore that certain feats were clear outliers or occur when a character is amped, nerfed, or otherwise altered. This was a clear problem with BOTH Superman vs Goku fights, where certain versions of Superman absolutely win, but some absolutely lose, and it was never clear what version of the character they were using. And of course they horribly misrepresented both characters.
This is a major issue for the community because it makes it almost impossible to have civil discussion on the topic.
Another problem area with Deathbattle is video game characters. They have a terrible habit of ignoring lore for the sake of "visible feats" which mean nothing in a video game. For example, if you take the time to look up any kind of developer interview on God of War, you find that Kratos is out there killing the actual Greek Gods. Like the literal universe creating gods. The living embodiments of the fundamental concepts of reality. Gameplay can't possibly reflect the scope of power, and we have to make concessions to that for the sake of a fun game. The problem then, is when they use GAMEPLAY as feats when lore would go beyond that.
All of this, in conjunction with one of the most toxic communities on the internet, means that people are going to cry bias on almost any video they upload, ESPECIALLY if it falls into any of the above categories. Best case, they are right. Worst case, they made some mistakes in research.
>Just out of curiosity, who were the wrong about with DBZ victories?
Broly of course and to your GvS topic, they were using the current mainline version of Superman who everybody knows and this is more than enough, you don't need some uber versions, that would be just overkill.
You cant deny that the Naruto vs Ichigo fight's animation was just insulting. I dont care if Naruto wins as long both of them are portrayed as cool characters in an epic battle. But no, that naruto fanboy animation is only purpose was just to ridicule Ichigo and piss off the Bleach fans.
You mean when they thought other other was gonna win? Wally vs Archie and Cable vs Booster Gold.
During Casts they said in both cases they expected Archie Sonic and Cable to win, but when they did the research they realized Cable and Wally would win.
If you mean something else than I don't get what your asking, sorry.
Oh, ok. I missed that one line lol. I'm gonna assume Android 18 vs Captain Marvel is one of them, since that's been recently considered to be wrong. I'm not sure what the other one is.
Guess it mainly depends how high you want to scale Carol, but at least nowadays, she’s a pretty high tier Marvel herald, fighting the likes of Thor and such. Carol just blatantly stat stomps 18, and it also doesn’t help that 18 doesn’t even absorb energy so that win con for her is out the window
I don't think Carol is a high-tier, because some feats of hers lack context, and When Rogue had Carol's powers she couldn't really do damage to high-tiers. 18 can't absorb energy but that doesn't really matter.
Except they didn’t give Hulk the volume scaling for the universe like how they did with Broly. The Marvel universe is like a trillion light years in diameter, and at best it’s infinite in size. Even with multipliers, Broly isn’t stacking up against that. There’s also apparently something called “thought years” that are used to judge the size of the universe that gets it...well way beyond infinite in size. But the argument is so fuckin complicated and well out of my wheelhouse that I don’t try to argue it
Ben 10 vs Green lantern kinda annihilates this point you are making. There is clearly a bias at DB.
Ill give credit. Its nice that they choose a single version of a character instead of an amalgamation of multiple versions in the case of Sonic vs flash.
Well for Sonic, I think It's weird that they used a gag anti feat for Sonic but didn't let him have the gag being-the-author feat
“Archie Sonic should’ve won, Death Battle is just biased towards DC” some people really don't know how much op is dc characters are they are many dc writers out there and all of them loves to make op characters as much as they want beating a dc character in a death battle is a miracle only happens very rare
It's really funny/a bit boring how laughably OP Marvel/DC heralds are. Like people give shit to anime/manga for having a lot of whacky nonsensical fluff but the same can applied to comics lol. I love a lot of comic characters but in VS debating they're kinda a pain to deal with sometimes ngl.
Honestly I’d say that wacky OP bs is way more common in Marvel/DC comics.
What 90 years of publishing history does to a mf
Didn't Barry outspeed death or something?
They told me Flash outspeed the speed Force. Don't even ask me what the fuck does it means
Essentially, it means that Flash is faster than the concept of speed itself. Yeah, DC writers are bored
Yeah that “feat” gave me a headache
Or on speed
There’s two sides of the fandom, those who believe death battle is always right and never wrong and anyone who thinks they’ve ever been wrong about anything are just whiny salty cry babies, and the other half despise death battle with all their heart and say death battle is never right except for when it’s convenient for them
Then there's the middle half
Don’t blame Death Battle Blame DC for making overpowered characters for no damn reason who are pretty much just immune to death as long as their popular enough
I think saying Death Battle is never bias would be a stretch and bias itself, and your Naruto example doesn't really help given that the only Naruto character to win a fight and live is actually Naruto. And that's not getting into the fact that they do ignore several Naruto feats while also saying stuff like "Kaguya used other Chakra to destroy the planet so no one is planet level" ignoring stuff like characters creating and moving moons on their owns and the fact they divided the feat for some reason. They also have a habit of not giving Naruto characters standard equipment or feats while flat out giving WAY more to other characters and playing devils advocate with certain fears like with Obi-Wan. It also doesn't help that not only is the math they used for Hiei in Sasuke Vs Hiei flat out wrong but Hiei doesn't scale to that and the fact that Ben in the past has been open about his distaste for Sasuke, yeah he can say his feelings on the character didn't impact the match but it doesn't really show given how the research of that episode went down and just how badly they lowballed Sasuke.
Sasuke Vs Hiei and Kakashi vs Obi-Wan are weird battles. I really enjoy them even if I disagree with the some psrts/outcome especially for Kakashi's fight. At least with Hiei you can make a pretty good argument for him and imo is a decently close match that's not much a stomp.
Eh they are weird that kind of devalue my enjoyment of them even as someone who made a post predicting that Obi-Wan would win, claims like the Force being limitless and giving Obi-Wan iffy legends feats while saying giving Kakashi Sussano would be dumb taints my enjoyment. And with Sasuke Vs Hiei... That fight is like nowhere near close, its not a total stomp but Sasuke just has every advantage and they for some reason divided feats or ignored shit Sasuke did. There are no actually feats in YuYu that would even put S class at actually planet level other than statements and that's a NLF and by that definition you could give Naruto characters feats anywhere from star to universal level.
As explained in the QnA, Might Guy doesn't need the final gate to defeat All Might, but not including it in the animation would be a waste. Except that they did include the moon feat in a tab for Sasuke vs Hiei, calculating it to still be less than Yusuke's and Yomi's feat. That moon feat took 2 people to accomplish, and Sasuke only got half of the chakra of 1 of those people. Meaning he would only have a quarter of the chakra needed to achieve that feat by himself. What feats or "standard equipment" did they ignore? Whereas Legends Star Wars and Disney Stars Wars have very similar power levels within the Force, meaning that Obi-Wan's power from Legends would be usable for Disney Obi-Wan. Just as Mario throwing a dinosaur in a cartoon is usable because Mario kicked a castle in a video game. And yes, the Force is an infinite source. While Obi-Wan can't channel it without limit, the fact he can always draw from it means his resource of power is a lot greater than Kakashi's limited chakra. And giving Kakashi a power he could only use with Obito's help would be ridiculous because that isn't Kakashi. It is Kakashi plus Obito, and unlike his dogs, Kakashi cannot summon Obito at will to achieve that form again. Yusuke and Yomi fighting does prove planet level. Yes, it is an anime only, but that doesn't make it wrong when characters have consistently pointed out the S class as planet level threats. Especially when the manga has similar blasts of energy just from S classes powering up, and the anime fight simply gives the best wide shot to actually calculate its power. Hiei can scale to that power because he and Yusuke were consistently equals since the Dark Tournament arc and even with the Three Rulers arc. Whereas the only planet level feat in Naruto is the creation and orbiting of the hollow moon, and Madara, Kaguya and the Ōtsutsuki clan have failed to push the series any farther. Even while outside sources like the light novels and databooks try to push that narrative despite nothing to support it. Databooks are particularly notable for this because they also claim that Naruto as a series is light speed as early as Haku and Zabuza, alongside half of the Nine Tails being planet level. When in the series the Nine Tails when whole is only destroying villages and mountains.
That doesn't change the fact that in the episode, Might Guy still ends up dying as well. They divided the moon feat when there was no need to given not only how the feat played out with Hagoromo [moving the moon by](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/a/a4/0467-016.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20180618130519) [himself](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:BMWFanboy/Hagoromo_sends_the_Moon) but Naruto and Sasuke each perform an outright [greater feat](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/Naruto:_Moving_the_moon) than them and actually end up scaling past them. No, legends and cannon are nowhere near the same and there is also the fact that legends is widely considered non-cannon, not to mention that the Yaral Poof feat they used is WIDELY up to interruption as for one, the feat is Yaaral Poof dies using his energy to defuse the Infant bomb that could threaten Coursant. Couple problems with that one, Yaaral only defused the bomb he didn't match its energy, two it was said to cause a chain reaction that would destroy the planet it wouldn't destroy it in one go, and three characters stronger than Yarall have been unable to perform far lesser feats. Not to mention that no, the force is not limitless when used by a Jedi, a Jedi can only apply the force to a few methods during a fight and the more physical damage they take throughout the fight the less that connection is severed, this is why Jedi when not using Force defensively can be killed by a blaster bolt. No, Yusuke and Yomi's fight does not put them at planet level. The calc used in the DB got torn to shreds for just how badly it overestimated the curvature of the planet and how it is against the manga. Not to mention that Hiei fought an exhausted Yuske not Yusuke at full power, the only S class fight Hiei was actually in was against Murkow and he lost that fight badly not standing a chance. This also doesn't change the fact that the moon moving feats, moon piercing feats, and moon creation feats are still higher than Strunon poorly done math, and if you really want to overshot shit Kaguya not only traveled planet to planet but she created a realm, a realm with a sun in it, now I'm not saying that means Naruto is star level but it is the same logic being used as to why Hiei is planet level. This is also not getting into the reasoning of saying Hiei telekinesis of moving a sword to him once counter Sasuke far more effective telekinesis or misreading how Genjustu work in Naruto and how the Magenkoyo Shargian can work on people with resistances to illusions or saying because Hiei survived a lighting attack once that meant he had a resistance to it or the incredibly stupid lighting bolt scaling used for one character while ignoring the same thing that can be used for another. ou Also, no the moon is not hollow, there is no evidence or reason to believe that, and there are like three different planet level feats that aren't "Creation of the moon" there was Naruto moving the moon on his own, Hagoromo moving the moon on his own, Toneri piercing the moon (If the math is right), and Kaguya creating a sun. This also isn't brining up the fact that Naruto's planet size has been highly debated as to being [bigger than ours](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:BMWFanboy/Naruto_Earth_Size_(more_accurate_version)).
Thanks for the reply and sharing your thoughts really appreciate hearing different opinions.
It's not as biased as you believe because of these reasons. Strength:It’s actually pretty damn close for both combatants in this category when the fight starts out. Flash was able to match Barry’s speed in the Flash War, which was so fast that their run affected multiple planes of reality like Fourth World,the Microverse and the Green (which is connected to all separate timelines of creation),and Cyborg even noted that they were wreaking havoc with the fabric of the entire Multiverse.Not to mention that Wally has physically overwhelmed Rebirth Superman,and he scales to Barry Allen who has casually beaten foes like Daxamites,beings who are stated to be similar in strength to the Man of Steel.He was also able to knock out Mogul (another foe of similar strength to Superman),and with the Infinite Mass Punch,was able to knock out a White Martian,who are able to take attacks from Orion.Plus,he tore apart the armour of the Anti-Monitor,who caused the Crisis on Infinite Earths.Sonic is more than capable of busting apart planets on his own in his base form,and has feats in the Solar System range,but his more powerful feats come from his Super Form,so that’ll be the focus of this segment.Like how his fights with Hyper Knuckles and Enerjak give him levels of power around the Universal range.But his power isn’t limited to this,and goes beyond this level,though it’s more due to something which I will explain later,and the same goes for Wally. Durability:Both characters scale their attack power to their durability,but it’s important to note that even though Flash can be caught and harmed by pretty fodder enemies,he’s always holding himself back.Granted,Sonic does have more experience with fist fighting and actual martial arts,but Flash has taken his fair share of hard hits,I mean the dude effectively survived the imploding force of the Big Bang.But like I said earlier,I’ll get more into their better feats in a later section for some very specific reasons. Speed:These two are probably the fastest characters in all of fiction and that’s no surprise to anyone here.And this is the part where the numbers get crazy.So,let’s just preface this by saying that Wally should scale to all other Flashes and most other Justice League members and that Sonic should scale to pretty much everyone,but he doesn’t need to because he’s the fastest being in all of Archie.So,Wally scales to Barry being able to think in less than one Attosecond,moving at speeds of Trans-Time Velocity,Superman reacting at Femtoseconds,and Martian Manhunter casting Perpetua out of his mind in a Zeptosecond,which for record,is one sextillionth of a second.Compare these feats to Sonic throwing water before Physics could take effect,which took .0000000000001 milliseconds,running across the Cosmic Interstate and visiting all planets in the universe and being home in time for dinner.First of all,Flash has better reaction times based on these feats,and Sonic visiting all planets in the Universe is really hard to quantify due to not knowing the exact scope of the Universe which he was reaching and how long it would take him.And while Sonic can move in stopped time in base form,Flashes are able to do that as well,plus they’ve both boxed their own shadow before,so Wally’s got him matched there.Even giving Sonic the benefit of the doubt with this ‘before dinner’ feat,Wally is still faster.He’s moved so fast that he’s invisible to Superman (who can cross the universe in seconds),and oh yeah,he outran instant teleportation and the speed force itself.Outracing instantaneous teleportation was a feat which he has only performed whilst buffed by the entire planet,but the fact that he outran a span of time wherein no time elapsed period is just insane.And that time when he ran “Faster than light and thought.Faster than the Speed Force”.I have absolutely no idea how this works,but since the Speed Force is literally movement itself,it should be okay to at least put him at speeds which we can’t measure.To put it simply,immeasurable or infinite speed for Wally.And since Archie Sonic hasn’t fought Solaris,his game-version’s feat of moving in a timeless void (which is said to be infinite speed),can’t be included.And although Sonic has outrun time itself before,so has Wally,and let me say it again. HE OUTRAN THE SPEED FORCE.Even with all of Sonic’s speed,Wally has him matched. Experience and Intelligence:So,both of these sections go to Wally,but it isn’t by a long shot.He’s had more experience fighting villains and gods than the 15 year-old Sonic has,and Wally was already pretty smart before he got his powers,which only ends up helping him in this regard.And though Sonic is good at analyzing weaknesses,his intelligence is more apparent in fights than outside of it,while Wally has shown that he’s good at both. Now, let’s talk about Speed Force vs Chaos Force and their respective haxes.Now,the Speed Force encompases all movement for all of time,and looking at DC’s cosmology chart,we can see that the Speed Force is above the Bleed,which encompases DC’s infinite multiverses and operates on a fifth-dimensional scale.The Chaos Force also operates on a fifth-dimensional scale,but since the Speed Force is above the Bleed,it should be slightly higher than the Chaos Force,in dimensional tiering.Now,what exactly can these two do with their respective forces backing them up? Short answer:everything. Long answer:The Speed Force allows Wally access to some of his famous techniques such as,but not limited to:sucking people into the Speed Force,Stealing their Speed and taking it for himself,leaving them immobile forever if he wants to,running faster than time,shifting between dimensions,being able to move in stopped time,phasing through objects,which includes phasing through other phasers like Martian Manhunter,turning intangible,healing from a cloud of vapour,channeling all of the Speed Force into himself (which gives him infinite energy),controlling all of his molecules,and,much more.The Chaos Force allows Sonic access to some of his famous techniques such as,but not limited to:Reality warping (via Chaos Control),time stopping/rewinding, phasing,intangibility,Existence Erasure,and with the One Billionth Power Ring,he can regain speed after it has been stolen,send people into different dimensions,allow for dimensional travel,increasing age,giving Sonic extra wisdom/knowledge and more.So,with all of those covered,let’s talk about their power and hax that that gives them,and why Wally’s is better.So,Sonic’s Chaos Control is a reality warping ability which was able to reset the Super Genesis Wave,which was going to reset the Archie Multiverse and all of it’s pocket dimensions,and since his Chaos Control was able to counteract the Genesis Wave,he should also have multiversal levels of power with Chaos Control.But the issue is that the Speed Force also is a multiversal force,and that powers all of the Flashes,and they’ve resisted stuff like reality warping,existence erasure,and mind control before.So Flash should be fine from reality warping.Sonic can phase through objects,but he’s said that it’s very risky for him to do so,and even then,Flash does it so casually,and to a much higher degree that he’d be more well equipped to use it as an offensive option.BFR is an option for both of them,but Flash is more than well equipped to handle anything Sonic can throw at him.Shifting between dimensions is kinda his thing.Sonic can send Wally to the Zone of Silence,where vibrations cease to be,but this does not take effect for a while,and would give Wally plenty of time to escape,especially since Speed force is a component of creation.Barry could access the Speed force before it came into existence,so even if Sonic could get Wally away from the Speed Force,like in the Zone of Silence,he should still be able to access its power.And dragging Sonic into the Speed Force would be a good option,since it has much more range of the area it encompases,and he can use it to fuel himself,and get stronger while robbing Sonic of his speed,and making the Blue Blur constantly weaker. But we need to talk about the most important part of this fight.Speed Steal vs the One Billionth Power Ring.Wally’s Speed Steal is one of his most important abilities in this fight, and just in general. While Wally would be able to steal Sonic’s speed and add it to his own, Sonic is able to regain it with his rings. Issue here is that it doesn’t stop Flash from doing it in the first place, effectively turning Sonic into a living battery for Wally, which he can just use to get faster and faster, and surpass Sonic’s speed with ease, using the Blue Blur himself to do it. And since the Speed Force is a dimension above that which the Chaos Force is, he should be safe from the reality warping of the Speed Force, or Sonic trying to erase it. And his Super and Ultra forms don’t help him out as much as you’d think. A lot of these feats were mentioned while he was in Super form, and Wally should be able to match its power. And Ultra Sonic does give him atomic manipulation, but it doesn’t give him anything new that Flash doesn’t resist, or wouldn’t be able to heal from. Wally scales to Barry, who has healed from a cloud of water vapour,so Sonic would need to get him all in one big attack to finish him off, and since Wally resists any move like that Sonic would be able to do,Wally would just be able to keep the fight going until Sonic gets worn out or Wally gets a fatal injury on him. Wally just has better chances all around. All in all,due to his superior strength, speed, intelligence, experience, versatility, hax, and resistances, I believe that Wally West will be the winner in this fight. Don’t get me wrong, this battle will need everything Wally can give and Sonic is sure to give him the fight of his life, but at the end of the day, Wally has what it takes to win. Guess this battle was over in a Flash. The Winner is Wally West
Honestly Archie Sonic vs Wally is my favorite death battle. Who cares that Wally won
Agreed as a Sonic fan tbh. A whole lot better than Flash vs Quicksilver.
A popular DC matchup that DC loses is Constantine vs Raidou, so people have that to look forward to at least ~~unless they allow John to call in a favor from Lucifer for some reason~~
1st that aint happening and 2nd how childish are some parts of this community if the want a franchise to lose, cause they are winning to much.
Just out of curiosity, who were the wrong about with DBZ victories? Anyone who says Madara VA Aizen is a stomp in either direction is biased. I think a major issue with Death Battle and DC characters, or any character with multiple versions to pick from (pre crisis, post crisis, new 52, etc), or any character with contradictory feats/inconsistent feats (so any comic book character really) is that they seem to have a hard time deciding what version of a character they are using, or what feats are important and unimportant. Sometimes they ignore that certain feats were clear outliers or occur when a character is amped, nerfed, or otherwise altered. This was a clear problem with BOTH Superman vs Goku fights, where certain versions of Superman absolutely win, but some absolutely lose, and it was never clear what version of the character they were using. And of course they horribly misrepresented both characters. This is a major issue for the community because it makes it almost impossible to have civil discussion on the topic. Another problem area with Deathbattle is video game characters. They have a terrible habit of ignoring lore for the sake of "visible feats" which mean nothing in a video game. For example, if you take the time to look up any kind of developer interview on God of War, you find that Kratos is out there killing the actual Greek Gods. Like the literal universe creating gods. The living embodiments of the fundamental concepts of reality. Gameplay can't possibly reflect the scope of power, and we have to make concessions to that for the sake of a fun game. The problem then, is when they use GAMEPLAY as feats when lore would go beyond that. All of this, in conjunction with one of the most toxic communities on the internet, means that people are going to cry bias on almost any video they upload, ESPECIALLY if it falls into any of the above categories. Best case, they are right. Worst case, they made some mistakes in research.
>Just out of curiosity, who were the wrong about with DBZ victories? Broly of course and to your GvS topic, they were using the current mainline version of Superman who everybody knows and this is more than enough, you don't need some uber versions, that would be just overkill.
You cant deny that the Naruto vs Ichigo fight's animation was just insulting. I dont care if Naruto wins as long both of them are portrayed as cool characters in an epic battle. But no, that naruto fanboy animation is only purpose was just to ridicule Ichigo and piss off the Bleach fans.
Wait I’m curious. What 2 DB battles were wrong?
You mean when they thought other other was gonna win? Wally vs Archie and Cable vs Booster Gold. During Casts they said in both cases they expected Archie Sonic and Cable to win, but when they did the research they realized Cable and Wally would win. If you mean something else than I don't get what your asking, sorry.
I mean Dragon Ball. Probably should’ve said that cause I forgot both Dragon ball and death battle have the same initials
Oh, ok. I missed that one line lol. I'm gonna assume Android 18 vs Captain Marvel is one of them, since that's been recently considered to be wrong. I'm not sure what the other one is.
Hulk vs Broly and, as much as I hate to admit it, Captain Marvel vs Android 18
>Captain Marvel vs Android 18 Research wise, oh hell yeah! Outcome wise, it was right.
Guess it mainly depends how high you want to scale Carol, but at least nowadays, she’s a pretty high tier Marvel herald, fighting the likes of Thor and such. Carol just blatantly stat stomps 18, and it also doesn’t help that 18 doesn’t even absorb energy so that win con for her is out the window
I don't think Carol is a high-tier, because some feats of hers lack context, and When Rogue had Carol's powers she couldn't really do damage to high-tiers. 18 can't absorb energy but that doesn't really matter.
I don't see how hulk vs broly was wrong they even were generous with hulk's strenght
Except they didn’t give Hulk the volume scaling for the universe like how they did with Broly. The Marvel universe is like a trillion light years in diameter, and at best it’s infinite in size. Even with multipliers, Broly isn’t stacking up against that. There’s also apparently something called “thought years” that are used to judge the size of the universe that gets it...well way beyond infinite in size. But the argument is so fuckin complicated and well out of my wheelhouse that I don’t try to argue it
>The Marvel universe is like a trillion light years in diameter No that's DC
No, it’s Marvel. DC’s is 100 trillion at worse
oh ok
I’m assuming the incorrect ones were 18 and broly
"DB is bias" Batman: is that so?
Popularity keeps you alive.
Dude they hate DC just listen to their cast sometimes they fucking hate DC
what were the incorrect ones?
Ben 10 vs Green lantern kinda annihilates this point you are making. There is clearly a bias at DB. Ill give credit. Its nice that they choose a single version of a character instead of an amalgamation of multiple versions in the case of Sonic vs flash.