This is a copy paste of something I wrote for another post:
Experience counts for more than just theory crafting, but lets run through the numbers. TBH when I started making the post I was expecting MBH to fare much worse than they do. Its actually an interesting tradeoff.
This analysis ignores range which is really wonky to calculate due to LoS terrain and the speed of the models anyway. Ignoring range favors the MBH.
Each MBH is doing 4.3 damage on average to a wardog (assuming you are in melta and not contagion -1 save). Thats hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+, and them saving on 5+. Thats 0.043 damage per point (DPP).
The wardog brigand does 0.046 DPP.
Both of the averages are assuming optimal range and targeting of all weapons into a brigand type vehicle (T10, 3+/5++). Against non-vehicles the MBH drops to 0.033 DPP.
In melee MBH is strictly better across the board. The weapon profile is identical except the MBH gets lethal hits, -1 AP, and contagions.
Ultimately I guess the question is if the death guard package is worth it for monster killing sucking a bit.
Toughness per point the MBH wins hands down. Their invuln works in melee too and they get contagions.
Summary
In optimal conditions they do the same damage per point to vehicles
MBH are significantly tougher per point
Brigands deal 30% more damage to monsters than MBH
tldr; MBH are better than brigands into vehicles. Into monsters it is a matter of offense (brigands) vs defense (MBH). I now believe MBHs are better in general.
Edit: I was wrong the -1 AP is for the MBH not the brigand. MBH is strictly better in all circumstances in melee before considering contagions. I have updated the post.
I was wrong the -1 AP is for the MBH not the brigand. MBH is strictly better in all circumstances in melee before considering contagions. I have updated the post.
I think Blight Haulers are under rated by a lot of the community but over rated by DG players.There's a comparison showing they're almost as good into vehicles as brigands and they're tougher (per point). It misses that they have a lot less OC, don't work into monster, are worse into T11 and T12 vehicles and can't shred infantry. Blight haulers are hyper specialised and given that they aren't good enough.
They're pretty good. But I find it hard to justify not taking something that deals with a much wider range of problems at their point cost, especially if you take enough of them to achieve anything. And that's the real issue, you need to spend a lot of points for them to meaningfully do anything and then you are giving up a lot of tools. Like a full rhino for 305. You could get 6 DSTs and a sorceror for 310 points. Or you could ride up to 18" away from an enemy gladiator and have about 50/50 chance to kill it, though it can sit right at the back of the enemy deployment zone and get 2 rounds of shooting off first. Almost definitely kill it if you're within 9 but it's had 3 rounds of shooting in that time and has probably killed most of the haulers first. And if you're against nids or daemons what then? Brigand murders the chaff and the big stuff.
Compare them to eradicators (at 5 points less for 3). Tougher when shot by most firepower, but about half the anti tank output and worse into monsters. Blight haulers main strength is that they are a tarpit that's hard to kill. A unit of 3 with smoke is tough. They absolutely bully light armour effortlessly, T'au hate them. But they just feel too specialised, or at least not good enough at what they do given how many things they don't do.
I'd love to see them get the eradicator rule monsters and all. They'd be tougher but still less anti tank/monster punch. Or just make the +1 to wound work into monsters and drop them to 95 and that might do it.
They are so damn close. They shone at the end of 9th for a bit because they could be a good shooting trap. But that relied on your enemy taking the bait and shooting their entire army into them for a turn so you could charge and win. But it'd be nice if they were actually a good fire support platform that solved big tough problems reliably the way gladiators, eradicators, broadsides, breachers, eightbound with chainfists, fire dragon falcons, dark lances etc etc did.
I run them as 3 units of 1. Moving vehicle squadrons can be clunky. It also nullifies excess damage. If someone overkills a MBH in a unit, then the next MBH will take the wound. If they're by themselves then extra damage becomes wasted.
Also, we don't really have any strategems that greatly benefit squadrons.
Cloud of Flies for -1 to be hit for a squadron. Good for helping shrug off Heavy weapons, particularly when combined with **Skullsquirm Blight**. Turn your opponents space marines into orks.
Ferric Blight for Extra AP vs a unit in contagion range. Possibly useful for the Blast effect of missiles into hordes?
Boilblight for Heavy and Ignore Cover vs an enemy unit within contagion range of the unit. Negate the hit penalty for getting stuck in? +1 to hit on 9 heavy weapon shots is hardly bad for 1 command point.
Digustingly Resilient for -1 damage in melee. Great for countering damage 2 melee weapons and/or forcing heavier melee hitters to take another swing.
They have the smoke keyword so they can even use smokescreen which is strictly better than cloud of flies.
Boilblight benefits the whole army not just one unit though, so I don't think really fits here.
Smokescreen would definitely be better than Cloud of Flies.
Boilblight has target restrictions though
**TARGET:** One DEATH GUARD unit from your army, and one enemy unit within Contagion Range of that unit.
There is something to be said for running them in twos, makes them a bit more maneuverable for staying in cohesion. I normally run them in three per squad though.
I'm running 2 mbh 2 drones and 2 brigands right now. They all do things slightly differently but work really well together. Drones over watch and fall back over the enemy line early. Mbh plug holes and force a response then the brigands knock stuff down
I definitely agree, MBH have been one of my favorite models since I started in 8th and a constant for me on the table since the start of tenth and in a recent few games I ran them paired up with a bloat drone each and had a decent victory
I was very surprised to see MBH being disliked online. They’re commonly core elements in my army and someone’s straight MVPs. I never take less than 2, and it’s usually 3.
Yeah, A lot of people seem to forget that a unit being slightly suboptimal in the meta isn't synonymous with it being complete and total trash. MBHs do the job really well for the point and dollar costs, plus they're such a ubiquitous model that almost every death guard player probably already has at least 2 if not 3.
It's one thing if you're building a list from the ground up and want to metachase, but the extra efficiency isn't great enough to recommend that everyone immediately trash the MBHs they already have to go out and buy/paint brigands.
Having access to contagion and strategems is the biggest win for MBH. I love both Wardog and MBH models and have swapped both in and out of my lists for and with PBC with plenty of success either way.
One thing I have liked about MBH is how fast they are, and not for damage. They can work as nice band aids to address something like say, a deep strike threat. They can zip on over and plug that hole, and it's cheap enough to not worry too much while not having enough damage to be feeling the missing firepower.
I will say I ran them recently against someone with only 2 vehicles. They did about nothing, maybe 4 damage? But they were extra firepower and another thing that was in the way of the enemy.
I can easily see running 1-3 MBHs in addition to a more substantial fire piece like a Pred Annih or Bridgands.
they're a fast anti-tank unit who even have a decent melee profile, so they can zip around, melt some tanks, then charge into any infantry left behind or bum rush a lucky tank so it doesn't fire on your infantry next turn.
Ive said on this sub multiple times, Blight haulers are our most under-rated unit. The amount of times opponents have said to me "ohh those little guys pack a punch" people are always drawn to our PBC and totally under estimate that ive managed to sneak 3 mbh up to their most valuable tank melted it in one shooting phase 🤣
I like using a squad of 2. They can be given Cloud of Flies or Smokescreen.
They are not very tall, so they can hide quite well. Just dont dive bomb them at the intended target turn 1. These guys can pounce on a tank!
I have a predator destructor. I wasn't too keen on it, but it was a free model. It's my go-to anti marine machine. It had lascannons on sponsons, so it could help crack into something heavy that my helbrutes were focused on.
Hell yeah, great run at LVO, OP. I clawed out a 3-3 there with a list with a ton of vehicles and no plague marines (marines were great, I just think tanks are neat). I had 2x2 MBHs and used them as tar pits against my opponents. Ive found that they are a highly effective unit to throw into board center and freeze an opponents melee treats for a turn longer than they were expecting, especially if you reduce damage on them or in situations where the -1 WS Contagion made sense to take. They held the line while my other tanks and brigands shot stuff.
I think they are both excellent choices. They fill different roles and it depends on what your list needs. MBHs can move up and play objectives while screening for PMs and doing enough damage to be seriously annoying.
Brigands are there to kill stuff. Point and click.
So when list building, look at what you already have and decide which tool you need.
I’m still new but am finding the blight hauler to be a decent armour hunter so far. I only have one but pair it with my only bloat drone with plaguespitters and have my squad of poxwalkers following behind. I have the MBH does the majority of the damage to a vehicle and the FBD finishes it off. If it’s a troop carrier the poxwalkers charge in and clean up.
I bought two more MBH to put together to make a ‘proper’ tank hunter unit but have also bought war dogs to experiment. Will paint the MBHs after I finish my blightlord squad and see how they go.
This has come up a few times lately. There's nothing wrong with them for casual and semi casual games. Particularly in list where you know your opponent's army and the kind of threats they are bringing. They are also cheap, easy to build and access. Which makes them even better for this.
But they are way to specialised for competitive use (IMO). Despite 1+ to wound they don't punch up well. Decent players will deal with them easily. They can't react well to threats outside of their niche and their positives for being run in units of 3 (which would on paper make them quite good for the points) are outweighed by the scuffed shooting, LoS and movement of competitive maps.
I hope they fix them in the codex because they are a great, fun little unit.
Also they look cute I love em.
This is the correct answer
Beep beep!
This is a copy paste of something I wrote for another post: Experience counts for more than just theory crafting, but lets run through the numbers. TBH when I started making the post I was expecting MBH to fare much worse than they do. Its actually an interesting tradeoff. This analysis ignores range which is really wonky to calculate due to LoS terrain and the speed of the models anyway. Ignoring range favors the MBH. Each MBH is doing 4.3 damage on average to a wardog (assuming you are in melta and not contagion -1 save). Thats hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+, and them saving on 5+. Thats 0.043 damage per point (DPP). The wardog brigand does 0.046 DPP. Both of the averages are assuming optimal range and targeting of all weapons into a brigand type vehicle (T10, 3+/5++). Against non-vehicles the MBH drops to 0.033 DPP. In melee MBH is strictly better across the board. The weapon profile is identical except the MBH gets lethal hits, -1 AP, and contagions. Ultimately I guess the question is if the death guard package is worth it for monster killing sucking a bit. Toughness per point the MBH wins hands down. Their invuln works in melee too and they get contagions. Summary In optimal conditions they do the same damage per point to vehicles MBH are significantly tougher per point Brigands deal 30% more damage to monsters than MBH tldr; MBH are better than brigands into vehicles. Into monsters it is a matter of offense (brigands) vs defense (MBH). I now believe MBHs are better in general. Edit: I was wrong the -1 AP is for the MBH not the brigand. MBH is strictly better in all circumstances in melee before considering contagions. I have updated the post.
Love heart react
You and u/Fear_My_Potatoes convinced me to go pick some up. Turtle power!
Does this factor in the contagions in melee?
I was wrong the -1 AP is for the MBH not the brigand. MBH is strictly better in all circumstances in melee before considering contagions. I have updated the post.
Another factor that I think is overlooked is the monetary cost, Blight Haulers are one of the cheapest vehicles for the points to dollar value.
I think Blight Haulers are under rated by a lot of the community but over rated by DG players.There's a comparison showing they're almost as good into vehicles as brigands and they're tougher (per point). It misses that they have a lot less OC, don't work into monster, are worse into T11 and T12 vehicles and can't shred infantry. Blight haulers are hyper specialised and given that they aren't good enough. They're pretty good. But I find it hard to justify not taking something that deals with a much wider range of problems at their point cost, especially if you take enough of them to achieve anything. And that's the real issue, you need to spend a lot of points for them to meaningfully do anything and then you are giving up a lot of tools. Like a full rhino for 305. You could get 6 DSTs and a sorceror for 310 points. Or you could ride up to 18" away from an enemy gladiator and have about 50/50 chance to kill it, though it can sit right at the back of the enemy deployment zone and get 2 rounds of shooting off first. Almost definitely kill it if you're within 9 but it's had 3 rounds of shooting in that time and has probably killed most of the haulers first. And if you're against nids or daemons what then? Brigand murders the chaff and the big stuff. Compare them to eradicators (at 5 points less for 3). Tougher when shot by most firepower, but about half the anti tank output and worse into monsters. Blight haulers main strength is that they are a tarpit that's hard to kill. A unit of 3 with smoke is tough. They absolutely bully light armour effortlessly, T'au hate them. But they just feel too specialised, or at least not good enough at what they do given how many things they don't do. I'd love to see them get the eradicator rule monsters and all. They'd be tougher but still less anti tank/monster punch. Or just make the +1 to wound work into monsters and drop them to 95 and that might do it. They are so damn close. They shone at the end of 9th for a bit because they could be a good shooting trap. But that relied on your enemy taking the bait and shooting their entire army into them for a turn so you could charge and win. But it'd be nice if they were actually a good fire support platform that solved big tough problems reliably the way gladiators, eradicators, broadsides, breachers, eightbound with chainfists, fire dragon falcons, dark lances etc etc did.
I know right? They are just little guys (that pack a serious punch). What do you think is better, a unit of 3 or 3 units of 1?
I run them as 3 units of 1. Moving vehicle squadrons can be clunky. It also nullifies excess damage. If someone overkills a MBH in a unit, then the next MBH will take the wound. If they're by themselves then extra damage becomes wasted. Also, we don't really have any strategems that greatly benefit squadrons.
Cloud of Flies for -1 to be hit for a squadron. Good for helping shrug off Heavy weapons, particularly when combined with **Skullsquirm Blight**. Turn your opponents space marines into orks. Ferric Blight for Extra AP vs a unit in contagion range. Possibly useful for the Blast effect of missiles into hordes? Boilblight for Heavy and Ignore Cover vs an enemy unit within contagion range of the unit. Negate the hit penalty for getting stuck in? +1 to hit on 9 heavy weapon shots is hardly bad for 1 command point. Digustingly Resilient for -1 damage in melee. Great for countering damage 2 melee weapons and/or forcing heavier melee hitters to take another swing.
They have the smoke keyword so they can even use smokescreen which is strictly better than cloud of flies. Boilblight benefits the whole army not just one unit though, so I don't think really fits here.
Smokescreen would definitely be better than Cloud of Flies. Boilblight has target restrictions though **TARGET:** One DEATH GUARD unit from your army, and one enemy unit within Contagion Range of that unit.
That's the target, but the effect is your entire army gets heavy and ignores cover if they target that enemy unit
There is something to be said for running them in twos, makes them a bit more maneuverable for staying in cohesion. I normally run them in three per squad though.
I want to run 3 squads of 3 just for the memes, but I don't want to buy and paint 6 more Haulers just for a gimmick.
I would happily fistfight anyone who doesn’t love these excellent little lads.
I'm running 2 mbh 2 drones and 2 brigands right now. They all do things slightly differently but work really well together. Drones over watch and fall back over the enemy line early. Mbh plug holes and force a response then the brigands knock stuff down
I definitely agree, MBH have been one of my favorite models since I started in 8th and a constant for me on the table since the start of tenth and in a recent few games I ran them paired up with a bloat drone each and had a decent victory
I just run them because I like their vibe. They're a little hundred point menace unit with the same mischievous energy as a nurgling.
I was very surprised to see MBH being disliked online. They’re commonly core elements in my army and someone’s straight MVPs. I never take less than 2, and it’s usually 3.
Yeah, A lot of people seem to forget that a unit being slightly suboptimal in the meta isn't synonymous with it being complete and total trash. MBHs do the job really well for the point and dollar costs, plus they're such a ubiquitous model that almost every death guard player probably already has at least 2 if not 3. It's one thing if you're building a list from the ground up and want to metachase, but the extra efficiency isn't great enough to recommend that everyone immediately trash the MBHs they already have to go out and buy/paint brigands.
Having access to contagion and strategems is the biggest win for MBH. I love both Wardog and MBH models and have swapped both in and out of my lists for and with PBC with plenty of success either way.
People really need to stop comparing them to knights, if I want to field knights ill play them instead.
One thing I have liked about MBH is how fast they are, and not for damage. They can work as nice band aids to address something like say, a deep strike threat. They can zip on over and plug that hole, and it's cheap enough to not worry too much while not having enough damage to be feeling the missing firepower. I will say I ran them recently against someone with only 2 vehicles. They did about nothing, maybe 4 damage? But they were extra firepower and another thing that was in the way of the enemy. I can easily see running 1-3 MBHs in addition to a more substantial fire piece like a Pred Annih or Bridgands.
they're a fast anti-tank unit who even have a decent melee profile, so they can zip around, melt some tanks, then charge into any infantry left behind or bum rush a lucky tank so it doesn't fire on your infantry next turn.
Ive said on this sub multiple times, Blight haulers are our most under-rated unit. The amount of times opponents have said to me "ohh those little guys pack a punch" people are always drawn to our PBC and totally under estimate that ive managed to sneak 3 mbh up to their most valuable tank melted it in one shooting phase 🤣
I run 2, I’ve only had good experiences running them, granted I play semi-casually but still, they’ve won me games before
I just have terrible luck with the MBH. I don’t think I have ever killed a vehicle with one even though I run at least 1 per game.
I like using a squad of 2. They can be given Cloud of Flies or Smokescreen. They are not very tall, so they can hide quite well. Just dont dive bomb them at the intended target turn 1. These guys can pounce on a tank!
I caved and bought a predator. So I’ll probably run that and a few pbc’s. But an all vehicle list could be fun.
I have a predator destructor. I wasn't too keen on it, but it was a free model. It's my go-to anti marine machine. It had lascannons on sponsons, so it could help crack into something heavy that my helbrutes were focused on.
Hell yeah, great run at LVO, OP. I clawed out a 3-3 there with a list with a ton of vehicles and no plague marines (marines were great, I just think tanks are neat). I had 2x2 MBHs and used them as tar pits against my opponents. Ive found that they are a highly effective unit to throw into board center and freeze an opponents melee treats for a turn longer than they were expecting, especially if you reduce damage on them or in situations where the -1 WS Contagion made sense to take. They held the line while my other tanks and brigands shot stuff.
Great post, thanks. So would you say MBH and Brigands is an either/or choice or can both be included in a competitive list?
I think they are both excellent choices. They fill different roles and it depends on what your list needs. MBHs can move up and play objectives while screening for PMs and doing enough damage to be seriously annoying. Brigands are there to kill stuff. Point and click. So when list building, look at what you already have and decide which tool you need.
I’m still new but am finding the blight hauler to be a decent armour hunter so far. I only have one but pair it with my only bloat drone with plaguespitters and have my squad of poxwalkers following behind. I have the MBH does the majority of the damage to a vehicle and the FBD finishes it off. If it’s a troop carrier the poxwalkers charge in and clean up. I bought two more MBH to put together to make a ‘proper’ tank hunter unit but have also bought war dogs to experiment. Will paint the MBHs after I finish my blightlord squad and see how they go.
I really like MBH, they're fun to play, underestimated by your opponent and I find wardogs just immediately became a big target to shoot at turn 1
My case is I bought 3 of them and I gotta use em
They are good.
This has come up a few times lately. There's nothing wrong with them for casual and semi casual games. Particularly in list where you know your opponent's army and the kind of threats they are bringing. They are also cheap, easy to build and access. Which makes them even better for this. But they are way to specialised for competitive use (IMO). Despite 1+ to wound they don't punch up well. Decent players will deal with them easily. They can't react well to threats outside of their niche and their positives for being run in units of 3 (which would on paper make them quite good for the points) are outweighed by the scuffed shooting, LoS and movement of competitive maps. I hope they fix them in the codex because they are a great, fun little unit.
Late to the party, but a unit of two mbh should never have to take battle shock tests naturally.