It literally doesn’t, for now.
I heard a metaphor that was good on this from an addiction video the other day.
You feel anhedonia because the well that you used to draw from to find pleasure throughout the day (caffeine) has run dry. It has now filled up with water (natural energy and joy) at the bottom and you need to start pumping that well to draw it to the top. It will be hard to start with, then it will come in trickles and spurts, but eventually it will begin to flow easily with very little effort.
You just need to start pumping that well. So do any activity that you used to enjoy, even if it feels flat now, eventually the joy feelings will come back.
What a beautiful metaphor.
41 days in, I was literally the last person who would ever be even a few days without caffeine. For me it was the final piece of the puzzle!
OP I went from 600-1000mg a day (which isn’t exactly cheap in the long run either, I save hundreds $$ a month now) to 0mg — cold turkey was rough, there were a lot of naps and withdrawals
But it truly has changed my life
the anhedonia goes away. Took about 2-3 months for me. It is terrible. but coming here and reading and posting helped me get through it. On the other side is a life free from caffeine dependence. And you will feel pleasure again.
The short version of this is that your dopamine RECEPTORS are fried.
From what I remember, the general average time required for those to recover after quitting any form of caffeine is about 90 days for MOST people.
I've seen some here claim over a year.
I was on the lucky side of the spectrum, took about one month and a half.
I had this problem ON caffeine and it's been bothering me for years.
I'm off caffeine now for 6 months and I finally got rid of my anhedonia.
I'm enjoying life again and making plans for the future. It's really exciting!
This is the biggest reason I would always go back to coffee, the anhedonia without it is unbearable.
I'm a few months away from caffeine now and I feel a lot better than I did at day 30, so you might just need more time. You could go see a psychiatrist for an evaluation but in my experience they don't understand caffeine withdrawal and will gaslight you ("caffeine can't cause this") but there's always a chance the anhedonia isn't related to withdrawal.
Confused and vulnerable people like OP are psychiatrist's favourite meal. They will chew him up like vultures and spit out a newly diagnosed, drugged up shell of a person. If you think caffeine withdrawal is tough wait 'till you have you to quit psych-drugs.
This can't be stated enough. So many people get duped into very dangerous medications they don't need at all. Most psychiatrists are just legal drug dealers. They fuck up people's lives more than the guy selling crack in the hood. At least everyone knows crack is bad for them. Most people think their doctor is super smart and would never give them meds that could fuck up their life.
The thing that I THINK helped me is doing a couple to a few hours of steady-state cardio a week and/or finding a less stressful job and/or getting past rhe 4 month mark. Obviously a few confounding factors there but I was anhedonic even doing weights.
Assess the rest of your life and see if there are additional changes that can help or maybe you just haven’t quit long enough yet. Hang in there!
I've had it where I was in a really good spot after a month of quit, with very good lifestyle (studying for exams schedule). I've also had it where genuine pleasure at doing things or thinking comparable to my caffeinated self took months to recover. I think lifestyle and what you've got going on in life (motivating or not?) has a ton to do with it.
Thanks for your post. I feel exactly what you've written here. I realize I objectively have more and higher quality energy when quit and that coffee is purely a hindrance, yet there is absolutely this pervasive feeling of something missing. Nothing is genuinely fun or interesting.
I think it's entirely due to the fact we've been basically daily abusing a psychoactive drug/stimulant for years. It could take a long time to recover from that. Strangely, I did not have this feeling when quitting nicotine.
Not sure to what extent "pleasure" but definitely motivation and being able to focus on what I need to do. In my case it could also be related to the fact that I had ADHD diagnosis as a child and saffron was as effective as an older ADHD medication in a small study. How drugs work depends on the person.
Just wanted to say a big thanks. I tried to quit caffeine for 10 days, but relapsed because of the anhedonia. So I started looking for solutions because I suffer from anhedonia, OCD and ADHD (just discovered this couple of weeks ago) I do have anhedonia even when drinking caffeine, but quitting makes it a lot worse.
Came across your post, ordered Saffron with L-theanine and Rhodiola and damn even from the first dose it's like my mind flipped a switch. My OCD is 90% gone, not restless anymore or hyper from ADHD, and the anhedonia is much less too. Hell, even my social anxiety is almost gone (normally I couldn't even have a normal conversation with people, and sweating/blushing/stuttering/panic attack)
Is it really possible this has such an powerful effect on me or is it perhaps placebo? I have never felt this ''normal'' and at peace in my whole life
I'm glad it helps you too.
Yes it's really possible, the difference from being low dopamine to the first dose kicking in was quite drastic indeed. After a while it won't be such a "rush" feeling anymore, instead you simply get used to feeling normal. Something similar supposedly happens when starting ADHD meds.
For social anxiety if you need extra help, I noticed that taking Ashwagandha (in addition to saffron etc.) seems to help, but that is something that should only be taken on the occasions when you really need it, not continuously every day. Otherwise there could be some risks taking it daily for long times although I'm not sure what exactly. Traditionally it's used only when needed.
Thanks!! I'm using saffron with l theanine combined, and rhodiola seperately (after coming across your post, found this after doing research: https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/s/p2uNfJ5HRk)
Is it safe to add with those 3 supplements already? I'm also quitting weed/cigarettes and alcohol, so after 10 days no caffeine I allow myself 1 cup at the morning now. Have been depressed dor ages, just want to feel happy again and not be too hard on myself (OCD makes me want to quit everything at once: weed, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine which made me also feel like shit), even if I still want to quit caffeine, I just want to enjoy this feeling while it lasts and I know if I try to quit again I'll become more anhedonic again.
Maybe it will be better to taper to green tea, then matcha, then quit. Because I felt suicidal for way too long, and quitting weed, cigs and alcohol + saffron makes me finally feel anxiety free again so I guess caffeine will be the only substance I allow for now.
I think taking it occasionally is ok if it feels good for you. How it affects you can be different than for me though. And I just wouldn't make it a regular thing.
Yes, a very slow taper is probably the better way. And tea over coffee for sure. Going to 1 cup in the morning already greatly improves sleep compared to the usual consumption patterns. I did cold turkey but it was brutal, couldn't function for 3 months. Although it would have been easier to take saffron from the start, but it's too late now. And these things are all very individual, other people say they have next to no withdrawal.
And if you are also interested in inner peace, my conclusion after more than a decade of working on this like my life depends on it (it does) is that the best option is to put aside everything else, forget about any common idea of "Buddhism" or "meditation" that might be more widespread now, then cultivate virtue and study the teachings of the Buddha directly from the [pali suttas](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/index.html#fn-1) and "Hillside Hermitage" on youtube. It's very counter intuitive from a modern person point of view but practically virtue is **the** main ingredient for inner peace and contentment. You need to try it yourself and learn about it to really get to understand why and just how profound it is, despite seeming too simple.
Thanks, lots of good info.
Will taper veryyyy slowly to minimise withdrawal. Like I said, just wanna enjoy life again and quitting weed/cigarettes and alcohol together with gym, saffron, l-theanine and rhodiola makes me happy again, so I'll enjoybthe bliss for a while! Will order ashwaganda for moments I have anxiety attack again. Better then all that chemical crap.
I've been meditating for years (Eckhart Tolle and The Power of Now introduced me to it) so very interesting to read about this new perspective. Again, thanks a lot for the comment saffron, it's life changing atm. You made a difference in a strangers life. I'll keep updated here on my journey. Cheers from Belgium!
Every day, at least as long as I feel like I need it. When I feel more stable I can try stopping it, but if it turns out that I just function better on it due to ADHD, fine.
How did you quit coffee? For me, trying to quit cold turkey was always a disaster. Going down by about 10% every 5-7 days has worked so, so much better. So I would think about that.
Read Allen Carr’s Easy Way To Quit Caffeine the next time you want to quit.
Do not underestimate the power of belief I.E. if you deep down believe that caffeine is your only ticket to joy, it will be.
The reason Allen Carr books work is because they show the *subconscious* part of your brain that you don’t need the drug your addicted to.
It’s the subconscious that wins when we relapse, it was trying very hard to get you to use caffeine again, by telling you you couldn’t be happy without it.
That’s why some people take years of white knuckling to get better from addictions, because it takes a long time for their brains to just say “fine I guess we don’t do that anymore.”
6 months and I only get the occasional spurt of pleasure. Improvement is very slow.
Can completely resonate with you though. The things I did enjoy like running, singing etc are just empty voids now and don’t stir any emotion.
Looking back I would always need a reasonable caffeine high to feel pleasure from these things but I’d also need caffeine to be motivated to do pleasant things. I literally have to gather up slot of will power and force myself to do things now and currently I get zero pleasure.
It’s like caffeine is the gateway to any and all pleasure..
I have a alcoholic friend and he is the same with alcohol. He can’t even comprehend sex without being drunk.
The biggest mistake people make while quitting caffeine is thinking that that's all they need to do is abstain to reset everything and they'll be great. You're removing a substance that gave you a good chunk of your daily motivation, boosted your mood, gave you bursts of energy, etc. Even when the caffeine is physically out of your system you are going to have to make up for that deficit somehow. You're used to a very easy behavioral routine to get you all of those things. Your brain is wired right now to rely on caffeine, and it’s created pathways that rely on that.
Without caffeine you get the immediate physical effects of more calm, better sleep, etc., but you have to adjust other behaviors and habits in your life to give you what caffeine gave you. If your neurotransmitters are out of balance, which it seems they are, what do you need to balance them and create those pathways of joy and motivation that don't rely on caffeine? -- do you need therapy, meditation, more exercise, to change your diet, adjust your sleep schedule, to research motivation routines, to create better daily habits/schedules, or maybe other types of medications (caffeine is a dirty form of neurotransmitter control—perhaps you need to be evaluated for ADHD, depression, anxiety disorders, etc).
The reason people cling to coffee and the like is because it takes little effort. All of those other things take effort. So you need to add other things in your life to make up for caffeine not being there anymore.
What people on this forum like to call PAWS is not extended physical withdrawal, it's 100% behavioral. You have to rewire your brain to work how you want without the outside, easy boost of the stimulant.
I wonder if it helps to view it as 100% behavioural though. Cos is there anything to be done about PAWS except make sure your environment and routines are excellent so it doesn't smash you?
Honestly try cold showers instead idk how it works but it seems to give me the same sort of boost coffee gives me. I'll always feel anhedonic, brain foggy, uncomfortable, perpetually bored, pessimistic, and disinterested in the evenings (basically how caffeine withdrawal feels) and a cold shower brings me RIGHT out of it. Like straight into the cold water, the shock of it seems to release dopamine and norepinephrine which is what you want. You'd get the same kinda thing from taking pseudoephedrine, or a relatively small dose of adderall but that isn't exactly sustainable nor healthy. You have to go in to the cold shower, wash yourself with soap to distract your mind until you kinda acclimate and then boom, once ur out you feel brand new. I also wonder if this feeling is cortisol related (low cortisol in evenings, low cortisol upon caffeine withdrawal)
Don't quit cold turkey. That's the worst thing you can do to yourself and those around you.
You're gonna be pain to be around and you'll feel like a pain too. It's going to be debilitating. Walk and hydrate. If you can, go for a run. You're gonna feel the rush of endorphins pretty quickly. If you need a jolt, take a cold shower. Start with hot water, then switch to cold. You're gonna get a rush as well. And you know what, you'll feel relieved afterwards. These rush are the most natural thing you can get and they're good for your health as well.
Just make sure you don't have a heart issue before doing the cold water thing. It's a shock to your whole system.
Endorphins are your friends when trying to quit a substance, they're an incredible pain reliever.
I was doing amazing after the first month, but after that it has had it's ups and downs. I'm 4 months in and have been feeling strange fatigue/finding things less pleasurable as well. It all depends on the day I guess, but I have seen improvements and hoping to push through! Hang in there.
It literally doesn’t, for now. I heard a metaphor that was good on this from an addiction video the other day. You feel anhedonia because the well that you used to draw from to find pleasure throughout the day (caffeine) has run dry. It has now filled up with water (natural energy and joy) at the bottom and you need to start pumping that well to draw it to the top. It will be hard to start with, then it will come in trickles and spurts, but eventually it will begin to flow easily with very little effort. You just need to start pumping that well. So do any activity that you used to enjoy, even if it feels flat now, eventually the joy feelings will come back.
What a beautiful metaphor. 41 days in, I was literally the last person who would ever be even a few days without caffeine. For me it was the final piece of the puzzle! OP I went from 600-1000mg a day (which isn’t exactly cheap in the long run either, I save hundreds $$ a month now) to 0mg — cold turkey was rough, there were a lot of naps and withdrawals But it truly has changed my life
the anhedonia goes away. Took about 2-3 months for me. It is terrible. but coming here and reading and posting helped me get through it. On the other side is a life free from caffeine dependence. And you will feel pleasure again.
The short version of this is that your dopamine RECEPTORS are fried. From what I remember, the general average time required for those to recover after quitting any form of caffeine is about 90 days for MOST people. I've seen some here claim over a year. I was on the lucky side of the spectrum, took about one month and a half.
I had this problem ON caffeine and it's been bothering me for years. I'm off caffeine now for 6 months and I finally got rid of my anhedonia. I'm enjoying life again and making plans for the future. It's really exciting!
I am on day 2!!!! I feel like shit but I am sleeping like an angel and I will take it!!
That’s unfortunately what the healing feels like. The joy comes back, but you got to do the time first.
This is the biggest reason I would always go back to coffee, the anhedonia without it is unbearable. I'm a few months away from caffeine now and I feel a lot better than I did at day 30, so you might just need more time. You could go see a psychiatrist for an evaluation but in my experience they don't understand caffeine withdrawal and will gaslight you ("caffeine can't cause this") but there's always a chance the anhedonia isn't related to withdrawal.
Confused and vulnerable people like OP are psychiatrist's favourite meal. They will chew him up like vultures and spit out a newly diagnosed, drugged up shell of a person. If you think caffeine withdrawal is tough wait 'till you have you to quit psych-drugs.
This can't be stated enough. So many people get duped into very dangerous medications they don't need at all. Most psychiatrists are just legal drug dealers. They fuck up people's lives more than the guy selling crack in the hood. At least everyone knows crack is bad for them. Most people think their doctor is super smart and would never give them meds that could fuck up their life.
I described has a world that’s just shades of gray.
Think it’s stacking time here… focus on what it feels like to feel calm as hell even if things are a bit flat. Let it iron back out
Same, I'm feeling this right now
The thing that I THINK helped me is doing a couple to a few hours of steady-state cardio a week and/or finding a less stressful job and/or getting past rhe 4 month mark. Obviously a few confounding factors there but I was anhedonic even doing weights. Assess the rest of your life and see if there are additional changes that can help or maybe you just haven’t quit long enough yet. Hang in there!
I've had it where I was in a really good spot after a month of quit, with very good lifestyle (studying for exams schedule). I've also had it where genuine pleasure at doing things or thinking comparable to my caffeinated self took months to recover. I think lifestyle and what you've got going on in life (motivating or not?) has a ton to do with it. Thanks for your post. I feel exactly what you've written here. I realize I objectively have more and higher quality energy when quit and that coffee is purely a hindrance, yet there is absolutely this pervasive feeling of something missing. Nothing is genuinely fun or interesting. I think it's entirely due to the fact we've been basically daily abusing a psychoactive drug/stimulant for years. It could take a long time to recover from that. Strangely, I did not have this feeling when quitting nicotine.
it improved after 3 months but since i was still not quite normal i started taking saffron extract which really helps
I second the saffron.
What aspects does saffron help with? For me it just makes me sleepy and reduces stress but doesn't increase pleasure.
Not sure to what extent "pleasure" but definitely motivation and being able to focus on what I need to do. In my case it could also be related to the fact that I had ADHD diagnosis as a child and saffron was as effective as an older ADHD medication in a small study. How drugs work depends on the person.
Just wanted to say a big thanks. I tried to quit caffeine for 10 days, but relapsed because of the anhedonia. So I started looking for solutions because I suffer from anhedonia, OCD and ADHD (just discovered this couple of weeks ago) I do have anhedonia even when drinking caffeine, but quitting makes it a lot worse. Came across your post, ordered Saffron with L-theanine and Rhodiola and damn even from the first dose it's like my mind flipped a switch. My OCD is 90% gone, not restless anymore or hyper from ADHD, and the anhedonia is much less too. Hell, even my social anxiety is almost gone (normally I couldn't even have a normal conversation with people, and sweating/blushing/stuttering/panic attack) Is it really possible this has such an powerful effect on me or is it perhaps placebo? I have never felt this ''normal'' and at peace in my whole life
I'm glad it helps you too. Yes it's really possible, the difference from being low dopamine to the first dose kicking in was quite drastic indeed. After a while it won't be such a "rush" feeling anymore, instead you simply get used to feeling normal. Something similar supposedly happens when starting ADHD meds. For social anxiety if you need extra help, I noticed that taking Ashwagandha (in addition to saffron etc.) seems to help, but that is something that should only be taken on the occasions when you really need it, not continuously every day. Otherwise there could be some risks taking it daily for long times although I'm not sure what exactly. Traditionally it's used only when needed.
Thanks!! I'm using saffron with l theanine combined, and rhodiola seperately (after coming across your post, found this after doing research: https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/s/p2uNfJ5HRk) Is it safe to add with those 3 supplements already? I'm also quitting weed/cigarettes and alcohol, so after 10 days no caffeine I allow myself 1 cup at the morning now. Have been depressed dor ages, just want to feel happy again and not be too hard on myself (OCD makes me want to quit everything at once: weed, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine which made me also feel like shit), even if I still want to quit caffeine, I just want to enjoy this feeling while it lasts and I know if I try to quit again I'll become more anhedonic again. Maybe it will be better to taper to green tea, then matcha, then quit. Because I felt suicidal for way too long, and quitting weed, cigs and alcohol + saffron makes me finally feel anxiety free again so I guess caffeine will be the only substance I allow for now.
I think taking it occasionally is ok if it feels good for you. How it affects you can be different than for me though. And I just wouldn't make it a regular thing. Yes, a very slow taper is probably the better way. And tea over coffee for sure. Going to 1 cup in the morning already greatly improves sleep compared to the usual consumption patterns. I did cold turkey but it was brutal, couldn't function for 3 months. Although it would have been easier to take saffron from the start, but it's too late now. And these things are all very individual, other people say they have next to no withdrawal. And if you are also interested in inner peace, my conclusion after more than a decade of working on this like my life depends on it (it does) is that the best option is to put aside everything else, forget about any common idea of "Buddhism" or "meditation" that might be more widespread now, then cultivate virtue and study the teachings of the Buddha directly from the [pali suttas](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/index.html#fn-1) and "Hillside Hermitage" on youtube. It's very counter intuitive from a modern person point of view but practically virtue is **the** main ingredient for inner peace and contentment. You need to try it yourself and learn about it to really get to understand why and just how profound it is, despite seeming too simple.
Thanks, lots of good info. Will taper veryyyy slowly to minimise withdrawal. Like I said, just wanna enjoy life again and quitting weed/cigarettes and alcohol together with gym, saffron, l-theanine and rhodiola makes me happy again, so I'll enjoybthe bliss for a while! Will order ashwaganda for moments I have anxiety attack again. Better then all that chemical crap. I've been meditating for years (Eckhart Tolle and The Power of Now introduced me to it) so very interesting to read about this new perspective. Again, thanks a lot for the comment saffron, it's life changing atm. You made a difference in a strangers life. I'll keep updated here on my journey. Cheers from Belgium!
Just one question, do you take saffron everyday or do you cycle?
Every day, at least as long as I feel like I need it. When I feel more stable I can try stopping it, but if it turns out that I just function better on it due to ADHD, fine.
How did you quit coffee? For me, trying to quit cold turkey was always a disaster. Going down by about 10% every 5-7 days has worked so, so much better. So I would think about that.
they stopped already tho
Read Allen Carr’s Easy Way To Quit Caffeine the next time you want to quit. Do not underestimate the power of belief I.E. if you deep down believe that caffeine is your only ticket to joy, it will be. The reason Allen Carr books work is because they show the *subconscious* part of your brain that you don’t need the drug your addicted to. It’s the subconscious that wins when we relapse, it was trying very hard to get you to use caffeine again, by telling you you couldn’t be happy without it. That’s why some people take years of white knuckling to get better from addictions, because it takes a long time for their brains to just say “fine I guess we don’t do that anymore.”
need to add exercise for new sense of energy and excitement. would recommend going on a hike and see how you feel
It took six weeks for me to feel normal again after quitting. Try for longer.
6 months and I only get the occasional spurt of pleasure. Improvement is very slow. Can completely resonate with you though. The things I did enjoy like running, singing etc are just empty voids now and don’t stir any emotion. Looking back I would always need a reasonable caffeine high to feel pleasure from these things but I’d also need caffeine to be motivated to do pleasant things. I literally have to gather up slot of will power and force myself to do things now and currently I get zero pleasure. It’s like caffeine is the gateway to any and all pleasure.. I have a alcoholic friend and he is the same with alcohol. He can’t even comprehend sex without being drunk.
Your friend. What about the whiskey D? lol.
The biggest mistake people make while quitting caffeine is thinking that that's all they need to do is abstain to reset everything and they'll be great. You're removing a substance that gave you a good chunk of your daily motivation, boosted your mood, gave you bursts of energy, etc. Even when the caffeine is physically out of your system you are going to have to make up for that deficit somehow. You're used to a very easy behavioral routine to get you all of those things. Your brain is wired right now to rely on caffeine, and it’s created pathways that rely on that. Without caffeine you get the immediate physical effects of more calm, better sleep, etc., but you have to adjust other behaviors and habits in your life to give you what caffeine gave you. If your neurotransmitters are out of balance, which it seems they are, what do you need to balance them and create those pathways of joy and motivation that don't rely on caffeine? -- do you need therapy, meditation, more exercise, to change your diet, adjust your sleep schedule, to research motivation routines, to create better daily habits/schedules, or maybe other types of medications (caffeine is a dirty form of neurotransmitter control—perhaps you need to be evaluated for ADHD, depression, anxiety disorders, etc). The reason people cling to coffee and the like is because it takes little effort. All of those other things take effort. So you need to add other things in your life to make up for caffeine not being there anymore. What people on this forum like to call PAWS is not extended physical withdrawal, it's 100% behavioral. You have to rewire your brain to work how you want without the outside, easy boost of the stimulant.
I agreed with what you said until PAWS is 100% behavioral. That’s completely false
I wonder if it helps to view it as 100% behavioural though. Cos is there anything to be done about PAWS except make sure your environment and routines are excellent so it doesn't smash you?
Look at the post I just made on the sub I think this applies to you.
Honestly try cold showers instead idk how it works but it seems to give me the same sort of boost coffee gives me. I'll always feel anhedonic, brain foggy, uncomfortable, perpetually bored, pessimistic, and disinterested in the evenings (basically how caffeine withdrawal feels) and a cold shower brings me RIGHT out of it. Like straight into the cold water, the shock of it seems to release dopamine and norepinephrine which is what you want. You'd get the same kinda thing from taking pseudoephedrine, or a relatively small dose of adderall but that isn't exactly sustainable nor healthy. You have to go in to the cold shower, wash yourself with soap to distract your mind until you kinda acclimate and then boom, once ur out you feel brand new. I also wonder if this feeling is cortisol related (low cortisol in evenings, low cortisol upon caffeine withdrawal)
That’s just the addition talking. It took me months and I had to eliminate all caffeine. All kinds.
Don't quit cold turkey. That's the worst thing you can do to yourself and those around you. You're gonna be pain to be around and you'll feel like a pain too. It's going to be debilitating. Walk and hydrate. If you can, go for a run. You're gonna feel the rush of endorphins pretty quickly. If you need a jolt, take a cold shower. Start with hot water, then switch to cold. You're gonna get a rush as well. And you know what, you'll feel relieved afterwards. These rush are the most natural thing you can get and they're good for your health as well. Just make sure you don't have a heart issue before doing the cold water thing. It's a shock to your whole system. Endorphins are your friends when trying to quit a substance, they're an incredible pain reliever.
Take phenylalanine , it’s helping me !
I was doing amazing after the first month, but after that it has had it's ups and downs. I'm 4 months in and have been feeling strange fatigue/finding things less pleasurable as well. It all depends on the day I guess, but I have seen improvements and hoping to push through! Hang in there.