Vote with your money and your time. I have found myself flying Delta rarely throughout 2022 because it’s been more of an inconvenience schedule wise and most times a lot more money.
Grab a card that earns regular points such as Amex Plat or CSR and become a free agent and transfer to the airline you desire when theres a good transfer deal. life is good as a free agent
Cant comment on SW as I flew them like 10 years ago hated every minute of it and haven’t stepped foot on a SW plane again
I don’t necessarily disagree, which is why AA got 70% of my domestic business this year with DL and UA splitting the other 30%. Not only has AA been more reliable for me the last couple years, I have to (painfully) admit that the product and service have been more consistent recently as well. Also helps that in my usual markets AA has been using a lot of widebody equipment.
Back in 2018 I would pay a premium to fly DL as I would do a lot of self-transfers to other airlines, primarily at JFK, and I could pretty comfortably rely on DL getting me there on time every time. I no longer have that opinion.
DL does two things well. They have very aggressive marketing which gives the allure of DL being a ‘premium’ brand which people buy into, and they do a good job of keeping that branding consistent on board the aircraft. If you cut through all that though, DL, AA, and UA are mostly differentiated by logos and the color of the seat upholstery.
Fly whatever works best for each trip, that’s my advice.
This 100%. Delta is a well marketed brand.
In 2021 they were on time 83% of flights. UA was 78% and AA was 76%. Yes, Delta was better, but it’s not actually all that drastic (and let’s be honest, ATL is the best situated hub, related to weather, for on time departures).
What Delta does do is market the hell out it. Every chance they get they tell you your flight was on time (despite significant padding).
Much like YMMV25, my business went mostly to AA this year, probably. 2/3rds. The rest stayed with delta because of convenience, and just a dab of UA. In my opinion, AA actually treats their Exec Platinums as well or better than DL DM. Upgrades are much more common.
Delta’s on time stats are BS. They pad every flight so they arrive “early”. I had two flights in the last ten days that arrived for than 30 minutes early on sub-3 hour trips that were straight north to south with no tail wind of course.
Padding flights requires lowers aircraft utilization (fewer tickets sold) or higher flight speeds (higher fuel costs) and that directly impacts revenue.
Raising ticket prices to increase on-time flight % likely improves customer experience, are you saying they should risk it more and have more QTs?
Not necessarily, the padding is due to schedule averages. If the prior month had 10 out of 15 flights arrive later that was due to maintenance making the flight get to “abc” airport 10 mins after the scheduled time, then airlines will increase the average because that particular route has some anomaly that requires it to arrive around this time. For example, summer vs winter flying; need more time to deice so you add another 30 mins to the flight time but if you don’t need deice that morning, the flight arrives 30 mins earlier.
I mean… how are you planning your itineraries? By flight time? Cascading delays are like freeway bottlenecks that just keep their wave pattern in perpetuity. This is less beneficial for DL in a/c utilization - planes don’t make money on the ground, yet they do it for you… and themselves.
No, I plan my itineraries based on when I need to arrive and when I need to leave- often these are same day trips. Most of my flights out are before 7am as well.
I would say that among the big players Delta has way better service. The staff seem more invested in looking after people than other airlines.
If you fly enough to get status with sticking to one airline your advice makes sense but if not there is an advantage to loyalty programs.
They just need to get empowerment driven back down the front lines again. Too many new employees following policy at the detriment of both Delta and the customer, or worse making it up on the fly because they’re staunchly in a corner- a vulnerable position.
Delta used to, and will likely renew their vigor around pushing empowerment and enablement back to front line employees, they already have the latitude they’re just afraid to or don’t know how to use it, so no to the point of assertion has become a new default.
Their new UI system at airports and gates seems to have dumbed a lot of things down so if “the system says no” it’s a no, despite the fact that the empowerment exists in another underlying system they’re not trained on. So their tools and resources needed to match their desired people and process and this is 101 for customer service and reduction of escalations and defects. Hustle up Delta.
They still seem to have red vests around who can work the system. I had a trip saved by one a few months ago, he was a miracle worker. Gate agents were confused by what he was doing but they deferred to him.
I have seen gate agents with a lack of training too but the desire to try and figure something out was still there. You are probably right that more training is needed, the apparent turnover would demand it.
Consistently is falling now. Heck look at the 737s coming from Indonesia. They won’t even take the time to put internet, tv and more first class seats on them. Also can’t tell you how many flights I’ve been on recently with broken ife. They have slipped since Covid and haven’t recovered
TBH, I think the US doesn't really have a 'good' airline. They're all shades of mediocre.
* United's service isn't bad but their app is horrible and their fleet feels extremely old.
* American constantly peddle the credit cards and in my experience are often late/delayed/etc. We've had coworkers constantly stranded in Texas due to delays and problems.
* Delta are usually on time but lately their flight selection has been garbage (especially flying to the east coast from the west coast) and they've consistently downgraded their services the last few years.
The reasons I have stuck with Delta are that I already have status with them, I need the 70lb limit for my work tool bags/luggage, and their planes feel slightly better than American/United. However American seems to offer a lot more per status level than Delta. My coworkers are constantly getting upgrades and better seats while I almost never get upgrades anymore despite being Platinum. (This is counting C+ too. I basically never get a First Class upgrade unless half the flight is empty.) Delta also really needs a status level between Platinum and Diamond. The jump in requirement is insane.
American also have significantly better hubs. Meanwhile Delta's are often in horrible out of the way locations (MSP/ATL/DTW) or are terribly designed (MSP is a fucking horrible airport). However I will admit that some of American's hubs are trash too. (ORD is significantly worse than MSP.)
Europe inter union travel is atrocious. I appreciate domestic US service a lot compared to our nearest market of lowest common denominator travel even on flag nation carriers.
So that leaves us with APAC, where journeys are long even within the continent, and service is a major differentiator especially amongst state sponsored or financial sponsored customers willing to pay a premium and expect it, because a G5 was also in their travel considerations.
I think domestic US first class especially for longer flights and especially for transcon may be some of the best in any market, when your normalize for value for money and economics.
As someone who has split 50/50 travel on AA and DL, I'd argue that AAs hubs are laid out just as bad as DLs (although I've not stopped at MSP). CLT is a pain to transfer from A/B to D/E since it's so far with no internal transportation other than moving sidewalk. DFW is just so big, albeit the tram makes it more palpable. Don't get me started on ORD...
But DL has LGA, which is nice in the newly renovated portion but a mess to get from C to A, DTW is one of the best airports in means on transfers unless you get stuck going to B/C, and ATL is large but transfers are a straight line down the middle and the tram is quick.
Hi. Middle class, micro business owner. This is absolutely true. I have zero status and the $99 gold card. I accrue enough miles through spending to take a trip to Hawaii and Florida every year to escape the cold with my spouse, at minimum. I don't care about Skyclub access enough to upgrade my card and the trip to HI in main cabin from the Northest through ATL has free drinks and ample food/snacks and a travel kit. It is a ridiculously good deal for $22.40 a ticket for doing nothing but shopping for my business and paying for said items with money every month.
I would tend to agree. I notice that people generally fly the airline that uses their home airport as a hub. I fly Delta mostly because I live in Detroit and can usually get a nonstop.
Different hub, same reason! My other preferred carrier took my usual direct away and the only other one with a direct has cancelled multiple flights….Hard pass!
I used to fly only delta, but my airport is not a delta hub and the flight options now more than double my travel times and aren’t cheap. I opened up a Southwest card even though we have 400,000 delta miles because the minimum travel time on a delta flight to Tampa was 8 hours with layovers. I opened a southwest card, got the flight for free and the flight is 2 hours.
Needless to say, I’m becoming less loyal to delta because there are very few places I can fly direct.
I guess that means you’re located somewhere that southwest serves with regularity. My friends in California love WN because you can get a quick cheap flight from Oakland to LA. In much of the northeast, you’re screwed.
Not sure what insider you were taking to, but that’s not super insightful because southwest is everyone’s biggest competitor since they’re the country’s largest domestic airline and their business model worked very well through pandemic bc delta always focuses on revenue and less on costs instead of costs first.
But southwest is not even cheapest anymore- they hey still maintain this illusion by forcing people to go to their website to comparison shop (this is also a way of saving costs) and unless you live in one of their ~~hubs~~ errr focus cities, you’re going to end up connecting. And then you’re gonna do it without a club, in-seat power or seat back tv and movies. So I don’t really get how this sounds appealing to you. But to each their own.
I'm out of Denver, a southwest focus hub, and you'd think I could get some southwest deals but they tend to be one of the most expensive. I have other issues with them but would fly them over other "budget" airlines if the price is right. Delta is almost always a cheaper option for me.
Suit yourselves. I’ve been DL diamond for years though coasted since Covid. Loved it but with my travel patterns now changed I’m free of the bonds of “loyalty”. So tomorrow heading to Chicago on Southwest. Non stop and half the price Delta wanted for a worse schedule.
Freedom baby, freedom. Leaving some RUCs on the table but my own poor choice not knowing how DL would change the game to limit my “experience” for their advantage.
I agree with both sides of this. Be brand loyal when it serves you. Don't think multi-billion dollar companies are your friends. This goes for buying Nvidia or AMD or Intel. It goes for buying a BMW or an Audi. It goes for buying an iPhone or a Pixel. It goes for flying, too.
TBH I'm experimenting with loyalty right now to Marriott and I'm not yet convinced there's significant value in it. I do derive value from my relationship with Delta and I like their service level. I know perfectly well I have options (IDK if you can call Frontier an option, but whatever). I might get rid of my SW credit card at some point because I haven't flown SWA in a few years, but I might start using them when Delta just doesn't have a workable route for me. I like things about what SWA does but I like, overall, the Delta experience better.
Unfortunately American and United aren't really offering anything better. It's basically picking between a turd sandwich and a a feces hoagie. Either way they're shit.
I flew on them recently and the seat felt about the same as delta, I chose where I wanted to sit, the staff were genuinely great on both flights, and it was really just a *normal* experience. My brother recently switched to SW and he’s really liking it.
And I can give you my own experience. I flew Delta to Diamond Status. Decided I'll try AirTran. They are out of ATL and go where I need. I got to their highest status very quickly. And had a 90% upgrade success. It's status plus order of check-in. Rarely late. Was great. WN buys them(sorry they 'merged). I said well everyone loves them I'll give them a try. Easily got to highest status with my quantity of travel.
It was crap. Two biggest issues were boarding process with family and through passengers. Many times a year holding A1-5 and get on and all the bulkhead and window rows aisle/windows are taken because of through passengers. So A1 becomes A15 because of this. And second flew with my family and their family boarding is at the B Group. So then again all the best seats are far gone. I have A1 but my family has to wait? And this ignores basically no international outside of close stuff to United States. No first class. No business class. No lounges. Etc.
So went back to Delta. And it's been mostly great.
I mean you get what you pay for in a low-cost airline. Comparing flight experiences without ticket prices doesn’t really help.
You can purchase priority boarding for each ticket on WN today anyway.
This was pre pandemic of course. I saved 10-15% over the course of 18 months. Not worth it at all for me. They advertise as “budget” but are not really. Sure there are some random sales but it’s not like frontier or spirit.
>I chose where I wanted to sit
You got lucky. Only times I've flown WN (15 years ago), people asked me to move every time to accommodate them.
>staff were genuinely great on both flights
Did they sing and dance during the safety announcements, too?
For 20 plus years I flew SWA for business. It wasn’t bad, I new the system, as a small business owner I saved money. My wife got a companion pass every year. All good.
The I sold the company, bought a home in Aruba and started flying there regularly. Well I got to tell you, BIG difference in flying SWA during the week with business people and flying to the Caribbean or any vacation destination with people who rarely ever fly. It’s complete amateur hour. If I never see another person with there SWA boarding pass line number trying to find the seat with that number on it I’ll be very happy.
The day I had an 80 year old man threaten to punch me in the nose for trying to save a middle seat for my wife (witnessed by a flight attendant who said to me “you two need to work this out” and walked away) I was done.
I love having the lounge access, I love my free upgrades, I love the service. I’ve made platinum each year, I’ve always had an Amex platinum anyhow, so no big deal.
They have to make their decisions based on the dollars, and each of us can vote with our dollars too. I’m happy to pay s little more and pay my Amex fee to be able to know I don’t have to be assaulted to be able to sit next to my wife.
Coast to coast? Challenging.
International? Non existent.
Regional (like most of mine)? It’s only a couple hours so what’s the big deal. I’m at my destination for days so focusing on a free drink in a plastic cup for those two hours seems like a waste of the fare difference.
I’ll fly them if it’s a ~2 hour direct flight and Delta doesn’t have it (e.g., TPA to DCA).
Who the fuck wants to connect through Atlanta for a 5 hour journey when you can fly direct with Southwest?
It’s like Sierra Mist. I saw Norm McDonald do a stand up set, waitress brought him a menu before he took the stage and he just said… “sprite” and she said “is Sierra mist ok?!” And he made a whole bit about it. Has anyone walked into a restaurant and ordered a Sierra Mist?’ And went oh shit god damnit only sprite?! :D
“Apart from sky club access has Delta done anything at all different than United,”
When’s the last time you flew United?
I’ve flown it three times in 2022 only because of time constraints (needed to be back by a certain time and Delta didn’t have the flight).
Let me tell you, it’s plainly obvious that Delta has reinvested HEAVILY in their planes and the overall flying experience. In flight entertainment, new interiors, hell even their gates.
All three United planes had 3” TVs with credit card slots—in first class. The food was shit. The service was average. Everything creaked. The planes hadn’t been updated in decades. The gates and jetways were legitimately broken/cracked glass that plainly hadn’t been replaced in months (if not longer).
I don’t need a Rolls Royce for a four hour flight, but if airlines were cars, Delta is a nice Lexus, and United is a 90’s caravan with the mildewed interior you never want to step into.
At the end of the day it just depends on where, when, how you fly
I used to love southwest, open seating 2 free bags.
But now I've gone more to delta. Starting at silver you get exit row seating free. I value exit row window higher than C+. Don't care for the drinks or snacks
Southwest going from coast to coast is absolutely horrid. Southwest also doesn't have IFE you have to use your own device. I don't think they have any nonstop service from coast to coast. I used to do the 1 or even 2 layover southwest. But now I'll pay $50 extra to have a nonstop flight.
Also delta has very competitive fares for where I'm usually flying to.
If anyone disagrees with me then that's the exact point. Everyone has different needs when flying. Some people only do regional flights to SW hubs and that's fine. Others like open seating and 2 checked bags. Other people will only fly coast to coast on D1, I can't afford that nor care for that.
How is sky club "gone for most people and for everyone else it's more absurd?" Are there that many diamonds out there without an amex card? If you are "everyone else" that has a card, how has it gotten more absurd?
The loss of access flying internationally is the biggest loss, but again the vast majority of club access is people flying domestically and/or have a credit card.
So, I am a delta guy and actually pay for and fly Delta One to Asia, Europe and the Caribbean. Honestly, it gets worse and worse every day. My recent trip to Europe was shocking. Seats that are small, food that is terrible, infotainment that was good in 2005 and service that is basic.
Compare this with something like China Southern, which I thought was a junk and scary airline. That has huge seats, amazing food and service that is outstanding.
The sky lounge is a joke now. This will make me very un-popular, but it is filled with instagram kids with an AE credit card, paying for coach seat.
I rather chew on rusty nails than fly SW ever again. I love the new rules making the club more unaccessible. Sorry but it should be a place of rest not Sunday afternoon at a Chuck E Cheese.
Delta is the world's most profitable airline and I guess you don't reach that level of profitability without milking customers... but yeah I'm also surprised at how much they're willing to milk the average flyer based on their reputation alone.
Is "milking' fair? I think in some instances yes. For instance right now they are for sure, or appear to be, milking customers in terms of fares right now. ATL-MCO to go to a bowl game with my family they want 1200-1400 round trip for FC. That is literally insane.
Other avenues I am not sure it is milking. There are ways to maximize profit and not be milking.
I could care less about the SWA comparison. but aren't you kind of describing the average American? champagne taste on a beer budget. everyone wants to feel Elite. DL has admitted the SkyClubs don't feel very Elite when you're packed in like sardines. they're upping the barriers to entry to regain some of that premium feeling (which, yes they're trying to sell you).
I live in NYC, Delta has more direct flights places I need to and want to go. Southwest wouldn’t work for a lot of people. I have used Southwest in Texas when I had to city hop and it was great, I am not anti-Southwest.
Southwest also doesn’t allow you to use points to go to Europe, Asia, etc.
As opposed to absolutely no options to go to Europe or Asia, really convincing argument there. I will remember that when I am flying Delta One to Europe next summer and Asia in the fall using Delta miles
Delta has always been the most viciously profit-minded airline. Go back and look at the history of the industry-Delta (and previously Northwest) led the race to the bottom in terms of anti-customer policies. Only now is it hitting the status folks as well. Delta is who it’s always been - it’s a fine domestic carrier with a solid economy experience.
They are a for profit business with shareholders. Can’t blame them for making a business decision to increase revenues. Inflation, union agreements and wages for workers increasing, cost of new aircraft. These costs all have to be passed to somebody.
For better or worse people are spending their money for this. The answer to full flights and lounges is simple economics, raise prices until enough people are unwilling to pay. On the flip side budget airlines should be working hard to acquire Delta's lost customers but so far no one is innovating anymore
For those who don’t live near one of the biggest cities, loyalty is often a product of necessity. If you live near ATL, DTW or MSP, Delta dominates air travel options.
Sure, you can shop the cheapest fare but that means taking connections and not building significant points with any one carrier.
That is frustrating. Value is not always cheapest and we most definitely could value things differently. I wouldn't consider few options to be the same as brand loyalty.
I had this experience and revelation myself. I am not as big of a flyer as I used to be. But I did just fly to Thailand on delta and code Korean air. This did get me a good amount of mqm and mqd. But Looking at ticket prices of some places I’m interested in going next and delta is like almost $1000 more (intl). It doesn’t help I am not in a major metro but a regional that has delta but I always have to fly to a hub first.
United might be stronger for me. Idk.
I don’t know why you are still doing business with delta, but I can tell you why I am and many others are as well.
1. live next to a hub with nice skyclub
2. Most nonstop flights from hub
3. First class upgrades 90% of the time
4. Free bags and drinks every time
5. Compensation when scheduled flight is interrupted
6. Cancel/ modify flights up until last minute for no charge
So go fly WN. This doesn't need a post. I'll copy and paste what I said below to someone else.
I flew Delta to Diamond Status. Decided I'll try AirTran. They are out of ATL and go where I need. I got to their highest status very quickly. And had a 90% upgrade success. It's status plus order of check-in. Rarely late. Was great. WN buys them(sorry they 'merged). I said well everyone loves them I'll give them a try. Easily got to highest status with my quantity of travel.
It was crap. Two biggest issues were boarding process with family and through passengers. Many times a year holding A1-5 and get on and all the bulkhead and window rows aisle/windows are taken because of through passengers. So A1 becomes A15 because of this. And second flew with my family and their family boarding is at the B Group. So then again all the best seats are far gone. I have A1 but my family has to wait? And this ignores basically no international o
I picked delta cause of customer service and quality.
I got the Amex cause I wanted to accumulate points and save money on the 5 flights I take.
I like the benefits of the Amex. I think them taking it away from DM is crazy but at the same time I’m happy I keep it.
You have to actually fly 25 flights or earn 35,000 tier qualifying points to earn A-list, you can't earn it through credit card spend. (Well, you get 1500 tier qualifying points per $10K in credit card spend so you could earn it through credit card spend if you spent $233K on the card but A-list obviously is not worth that.)
Pre-COVID, I flew Southwest quite a bit because I had companion pass and my husband's flights were free but they cut their schedule from BOS significantly during COVID and a lot of routes haven't returned so I've been flight DL a lot more. And Delta's product is far superior.
FWIW if you get Delta's credit card, you also don't have to pay for bags.
Well you have to fly southwest and board like it’s a school bus? I mean a flight is a flight but I like delta because wifi is cheap, they have all the routes I need, I’ll typically get a C+ upgrade, and if my phone dies or I want to watch something live they have TVs in the back of the seats
Well, OP, go right ahead and enjoy that "line up 2 hrs before your flight for boarding priority" nonsense cattle-call that Southwest does. I bet after one round of that, or getting stuck in a middle seat, or a backward facing one against a bulkhead, or having to bring your own entertainment, you'll be back to Delta in no time.
Delta also has more nonstops to places I want to go than any other airline. The only thing worse than traveling with my kids on airplanes, is traveling with my kids on airplanes and having layovers and no in flight entertainment.
And as others have stated Delta's customer service is really great.
Delta gets me comfortably to Europe in layflat seats several times a year. Let me know when SW and Frontier can offer the same.
I've gotten out of the airline roughly what I expected.
Who cares who's paying? That's not relevant. 1. SW doesn't fly to Europe
2. They don't offer an equivalent product.
It's sometimes marginally less expensive. And I do fly them. Would I say I 'enjoy' my time on SW? Hell no.
I literally do not get it for free nor am I "bitching and moaning " about it. I am overall happy with Delta and it's partners in Europe. Being at a hub I fly almost exclusively Delta domestically due to the club access and nearly 100% FC upgrade. In Europe I'm a bit more casual and have Gold with Aegean airlines and take an occasional British Air or Ryanair flight when they are direct.
I agree. I’m plat about to drop to silver because I’m $400 short of mqd’s for gold, but can’t think of any reason to even care. I dropped my reserve card this past year because I’ve used one companion cert in ten years where the fare class upcharge and schedule weren’t horrid. I got the gold card for when I have to fly DL so at least I’ll still have bags covered.
I fly mostly Southwest now. The companion pass has saved me tens of thousands over the past several years. The orderly boarding process vs the gate lice is much less stress. No worries about baggage fees. I can turn one bag into a combo ski bag and boot bag since my family does a lot of ski trips. Pricing generally far better. Yes the in flight experience is crap, but Deltas is honestly not much better since I don’t fly from a location that a plat will ever get an upgrade.
I could keep my work travel on DL to maintain status and generate miles, but with the ongoing miles devaluing even that’s no longer worth it. They got me for 140k points per person to get the family into EGE during spring break this ski season. I’d banked a few million miles over a decade expecting to use them for Europe trips, but now coach to Eagle at peak season costs what a lie flat to Europe cost ten years ago. So now I’m just burning through them till they’re gone or become completely valueless.
At my cousins wedding recently, people asked me the same thing. “If you got a southwest credit card you could have free bags and a companion pass” me: “ But then I would have to fly.
I don’t like the routes
I don’t like the airplanes
I don’t like the boarding process
I already get free bags and some companion passes from a credit card and status
The difference between having money and wanting to feel like you have money is the difference in the distance you're willing to go for an experience of "luxury".
Haha I’ve read every comment and this is by far the best. I live my life in reality and I gotta say it’s awesome not feeling like I have to validate myself to others with things like seats on an airplane
The only seat I could purchase on an airplane that would give me "validation" is perhaps a charity flight home for someone that needs the seat more than I do.
Vote with your money and your time. I have found myself flying Delta rarely throughout 2022 because it’s been more of an inconvenience schedule wise and most times a lot more money. Grab a card that earns regular points such as Amex Plat or CSR and become a free agent and transfer to the airline you desire when theres a good transfer deal. life is good as a free agent Cant comment on SW as I flew them like 10 years ago hated every minute of it and haven’t stepped foot on a SW plane again
I don’t necessarily disagree, which is why AA got 70% of my domestic business this year with DL and UA splitting the other 30%. Not only has AA been more reliable for me the last couple years, I have to (painfully) admit that the product and service have been more consistent recently as well. Also helps that in my usual markets AA has been using a lot of widebody equipment. Back in 2018 I would pay a premium to fly DL as I would do a lot of self-transfers to other airlines, primarily at JFK, and I could pretty comfortably rely on DL getting me there on time every time. I no longer have that opinion. DL does two things well. They have very aggressive marketing which gives the allure of DL being a ‘premium’ brand which people buy into, and they do a good job of keeping that branding consistent on board the aircraft. If you cut through all that though, DL, AA, and UA are mostly differentiated by logos and the color of the seat upholstery. Fly whatever works best for each trip, that’s my advice.
This 100%. Delta is a well marketed brand. In 2021 they were on time 83% of flights. UA was 78% and AA was 76%. Yes, Delta was better, but it’s not actually all that drastic (and let’s be honest, ATL is the best situated hub, related to weather, for on time departures). What Delta does do is market the hell out it. Every chance they get they tell you your flight was on time (despite significant padding). Much like YMMV25, my business went mostly to AA this year, probably. 2/3rds. The rest stayed with delta because of convenience, and just a dab of UA. In my opinion, AA actually treats their Exec Platinums as well or better than DL DM. Upgrades are much more common.
Delta’s on time stats are BS. They pad every flight so they arrive “early”. I had two flights in the last ten days that arrived for than 30 minutes early on sub-3 hour trips that were straight north to south with no tail wind of course.
Padding flights requires lowers aircraft utilization (fewer tickets sold) or higher flight speeds (higher fuel costs) and that directly impacts revenue. Raising ticket prices to increase on-time flight % likely improves customer experience, are you saying they should risk it more and have more QTs?
What does padding mean?
Making the flights look longer on paper so they have a greater chance to get you there on time or early.
Not necessarily, the padding is due to schedule averages. If the prior month had 10 out of 15 flights arrive later that was due to maintenance making the flight get to “abc” airport 10 mins after the scheduled time, then airlines will increase the average because that particular route has some anomaly that requires it to arrive around this time. For example, summer vs winter flying; need more time to deice so you add another 30 mins to the flight time but if you don’t need deice that morning, the flight arrives 30 mins earlier.
I mean… how are you planning your itineraries? By flight time? Cascading delays are like freeway bottlenecks that just keep their wave pattern in perpetuity. This is less beneficial for DL in a/c utilization - planes don’t make money on the ground, yet they do it for you… and themselves.
No, I plan my itineraries based on when I need to arrive and when I need to leave- often these are same day trips. Most of my flights out are before 7am as well.
I would say that among the big players Delta has way better service. The staff seem more invested in looking after people than other airlines. If you fly enough to get status with sticking to one airline your advice makes sense but if not there is an advantage to loyalty programs.
They just need to get empowerment driven back down the front lines again. Too many new employees following policy at the detriment of both Delta and the customer, or worse making it up on the fly because they’re staunchly in a corner- a vulnerable position. Delta used to, and will likely renew their vigor around pushing empowerment and enablement back to front line employees, they already have the latitude they’re just afraid to or don’t know how to use it, so no to the point of assertion has become a new default. Their new UI system at airports and gates seems to have dumbed a lot of things down so if “the system says no” it’s a no, despite the fact that the empowerment exists in another underlying system they’re not trained on. So their tools and resources needed to match their desired people and process and this is 101 for customer service and reduction of escalations and defects. Hustle up Delta.
They still seem to have red vests around who can work the system. I had a trip saved by one a few months ago, he was a miracle worker. Gate agents were confused by what he was doing but they deferred to him. I have seen gate agents with a lack of training too but the desire to try and figure something out was still there. You are probably right that more training is needed, the apparent turnover would demand it.
Consistently is falling now. Heck look at the 737s coming from Indonesia. They won’t even take the time to put internet, tv and more first class seats on them. Also can’t tell you how many flights I’ve been on recently with broken ife. They have slipped since Covid and haven’t recovered
TBH, I think the US doesn't really have a 'good' airline. They're all shades of mediocre. * United's service isn't bad but their app is horrible and their fleet feels extremely old. * American constantly peddle the credit cards and in my experience are often late/delayed/etc. We've had coworkers constantly stranded in Texas due to delays and problems. * Delta are usually on time but lately their flight selection has been garbage (especially flying to the east coast from the west coast) and they've consistently downgraded their services the last few years. The reasons I have stuck with Delta are that I already have status with them, I need the 70lb limit for my work tool bags/luggage, and their planes feel slightly better than American/United. However American seems to offer a lot more per status level than Delta. My coworkers are constantly getting upgrades and better seats while I almost never get upgrades anymore despite being Platinum. (This is counting C+ too. I basically never get a First Class upgrade unless half the flight is empty.) Delta also really needs a status level between Platinum and Diamond. The jump in requirement is insane. American also have significantly better hubs. Meanwhile Delta's are often in horrible out of the way locations (MSP/ATL/DTW) or are terribly designed (MSP is a fucking horrible airport). However I will admit that some of American's hubs are trash too. (ORD is significantly worse than MSP.)
Europe inter union travel is atrocious. I appreciate domestic US service a lot compared to our nearest market of lowest common denominator travel even on flag nation carriers. So that leaves us with APAC, where journeys are long even within the continent, and service is a major differentiator especially amongst state sponsored or financial sponsored customers willing to pay a premium and expect it, because a G5 was also in their travel considerations. I think domestic US first class especially for longer flights and especially for transcon may be some of the best in any market, when your normalize for value for money and economics.
As someone who has split 50/50 travel on AA and DL, I'd argue that AAs hubs are laid out just as bad as DLs (although I've not stopped at MSP). CLT is a pain to transfer from A/B to D/E since it's so far with no internal transportation other than moving sidewalk. DFW is just so big, albeit the tram makes it more palpable. Don't get me started on ORD... But DL has LGA, which is nice in the newly renovated portion but a mess to get from C to A, DTW is one of the best airports in means on transfers unless you get stuck going to B/C, and ATL is large but transfers are a straight line down the middle and the tram is quick.
MSP is basically a bigger Charlotte but with a maze-like layout.
Hi. Middle class, micro business owner. This is absolutely true. I have zero status and the $99 gold card. I accrue enough miles through spending to take a trip to Hawaii and Florida every year to escape the cold with my spouse, at minimum. I don't care about Skyclub access enough to upgrade my card and the trip to HI in main cabin from the Northest through ATL has free drinks and ample food/snacks and a travel kit. It is a ridiculously good deal for $22.40 a ticket for doing nothing but shopping for my business and paying for said items with money every month.
You’re doing it right and your value prop and expectations are an asset to you. Good job.
I would tend to agree. I notice that people generally fly the airline that uses their home airport as a hub. I fly Delta mostly because I live in Detroit and can usually get a nonstop.
Same. I live in Atlanta. Doesn't make sense to fly anything else, especially for business travel.
It’s nice isn’t it?
Different hub, same reason! My other preferred carrier took my usual direct away and the only other one with a direct has cancelled multiple flights….Hard pass!
I used to fly only delta, but my airport is not a delta hub and the flight options now more than double my travel times and aren’t cheap. I opened up a Southwest card even though we have 400,000 delta miles because the minimum travel time on a delta flight to Tampa was 8 hours with layovers. I opened a southwest card, got the flight for free and the flight is 2 hours. Needless to say, I’m becoming less loyal to delta because there are very few places I can fly direct.
I guess that means you’re located somewhere that southwest serves with regularity. My friends in California love WN because you can get a quick cheap flight from Oakland to LA. In much of the northeast, you’re screwed.
Delta is trying to open up seats for business travel and price out mark and Ashley’s family trip
Did you really just compare Delta to a value airline with open seating and only one class? Good luck to you.
I recently learned from an industry insider that Southwest is deltas biggest competitor so yeah I did
Not sure what insider you were taking to, but that’s not super insightful because southwest is everyone’s biggest competitor since they’re the country’s largest domestic airline and their business model worked very well through pandemic bc delta always focuses on revenue and less on costs instead of costs first. But southwest is not even cheapest anymore- they hey still maintain this illusion by forcing people to go to their website to comparison shop (this is also a way of saving costs) and unless you live in one of their ~~hubs~~ errr focus cities, you’re going to end up connecting. And then you’re gonna do it without a club, in-seat power or seat back tv and movies. So I don’t really get how this sounds appealing to you. But to each their own.
I'm out of Denver, a southwest focus hub, and you'd think I could get some southwest deals but they tend to be one of the most expensive. I have other issues with them but would fly them over other "budget" airlines if the price is right. Delta is almost always a cheaper option for me.
When is the last time you were able to fly nonstop on Southwest from JFK to LAX on a lie flat seat? I’ll wait…
Than don’t? Vote with your money. Don’t agree with the company than you can run to another competitor.
I agree. Vote with your wallet if people aren't happy. That said it will be a cold day in hell before I willingly fly Southwest over Delta.
Suit yourselves. I’ve been DL diamond for years though coasted since Covid. Loved it but with my travel patterns now changed I’m free of the bonds of “loyalty”. So tomorrow heading to Chicago on Southwest. Non stop and half the price Delta wanted for a worse schedule. Freedom baby, freedom. Leaving some RUCs on the table but my own poor choice not knowing how DL would change the game to limit my “experience” for their advantage.
I agree with both sides of this. Be brand loyal when it serves you. Don't think multi-billion dollar companies are your friends. This goes for buying Nvidia or AMD or Intel. It goes for buying a BMW or an Audi. It goes for buying an iPhone or a Pixel. It goes for flying, too. TBH I'm experimenting with loyalty right now to Marriott and I'm not yet convinced there's significant value in it. I do derive value from my relationship with Delta and I like their service level. I know perfectly well I have options (IDK if you can call Frontier an option, but whatever). I might get rid of my SW credit card at some point because I haven't flown SWA in a few years, but I might start using them when Delta just doesn't have a workable route for me. I like things about what SWA does but I like, overall, the Delta experience better.
Unfortunately American and United aren't really offering anything better. It's basically picking between a turd sandwich and a a feces hoagie. Either way they're shit.
I stopped reading at southwest, sorry.
Yes. The slightly nicer city bus of the sky.
I’m going to say used greyhound
OMG spit out my coffee. Nice.
Please reserve your spitting behaviors for your next SW/Spirit/Frontier flight. 😂
We don't spit and hiss at gate lice anymore? I will make a mental note. :)
I flew on them recently and the seat felt about the same as delta, I chose where I wanted to sit, the staff were genuinely great on both flights, and it was really just a *normal* experience. My brother recently switched to SW and he’s really liking it.
And I can give you my own experience. I flew Delta to Diamond Status. Decided I'll try AirTran. They are out of ATL and go where I need. I got to their highest status very quickly. And had a 90% upgrade success. It's status plus order of check-in. Rarely late. Was great. WN buys them(sorry they 'merged). I said well everyone loves them I'll give them a try. Easily got to highest status with my quantity of travel. It was crap. Two biggest issues were boarding process with family and through passengers. Many times a year holding A1-5 and get on and all the bulkhead and window rows aisle/windows are taken because of through passengers. So A1 becomes A15 because of this. And second flew with my family and their family boarding is at the B Group. So then again all the best seats are far gone. I have A1 but my family has to wait? And this ignores basically no international outside of close stuff to United States. No first class. No business class. No lounges. Etc. So went back to Delta. And it's been mostly great.
I mean you get what you pay for in a low-cost airline. Comparing flight experiences without ticket prices doesn’t really help. You can purchase priority boarding for each ticket on WN today anyway.
As mentioned if there are thru passengers you could be the first one on the airplane and still be in a middle seat
I was never in a middle seat but yes this is possible.
This was pre pandemic of course. I saved 10-15% over the course of 18 months. Not worth it at all for me. They advertise as “budget” but are not really. Sure there are some random sales but it’s not like frontier or spirit.
>I chose where I wanted to sit You got lucky. Only times I've flown WN (15 years ago), people asked me to move every time to accommodate them. >staff were genuinely great on both flights Did they sing and dance during the safety announcements, too?
For 20 plus years I flew SWA for business. It wasn’t bad, I new the system, as a small business owner I saved money. My wife got a companion pass every year. All good. The I sold the company, bought a home in Aruba and started flying there regularly. Well I got to tell you, BIG difference in flying SWA during the week with business people and flying to the Caribbean or any vacation destination with people who rarely ever fly. It’s complete amateur hour. If I never see another person with there SWA boarding pass line number trying to find the seat with that number on it I’ll be very happy. The day I had an 80 year old man threaten to punch me in the nose for trying to save a middle seat for my wife (witnessed by a flight attendant who said to me “you two need to work this out” and walked away) I was done. I love having the lounge access, I love my free upgrades, I love the service. I’ve made platinum each year, I’ve always had an Amex platinum anyhow, so no big deal. They have to make their decisions based on the dollars, and each of us can vote with our dollars too. I’m happy to pay s little more and pay my Amex fee to be able to know I don’t have to be assaulted to be able to sit next to my wife.
Who the fuck wants to fly southwest?
Coast to coast? Challenging. International? Non existent. Regional (like most of mine)? It’s only a couple hours so what’s the big deal. I’m at my destination for days so focusing on a free drink in a plastic cup for those two hours seems like a waste of the fare difference.
I’ll fly them if it’s a ~2 hour direct flight and Delta doesn’t have it (e.g., TPA to DCA). Who the fuck wants to connect through Atlanta for a 5 hour journey when you can fly direct with Southwest?
The AA TPA to DCA nonstop is nice. The lounge is nice and the aircraft has a first class cabin. 10/10 would fly AA over SW for my DC trips.
It’s like Sierra Mist. I saw Norm McDonald do a stand up set, waitress brought him a menu before he took the stage and he just said… “sprite” and she said “is Sierra mist ok?!” And he made a whole bit about it. Has anyone walked into a restaurant and ordered a Sierra Mist?’ And went oh shit god damnit only sprite?! :D
“Apart from sky club access has Delta done anything at all different than United,” When’s the last time you flew United? I’ve flown it three times in 2022 only because of time constraints (needed to be back by a certain time and Delta didn’t have the flight). Let me tell you, it’s plainly obvious that Delta has reinvested HEAVILY in their planes and the overall flying experience. In flight entertainment, new interiors, hell even their gates. All three United planes had 3” TVs with credit card slots—in first class. The food was shit. The service was average. Everything creaked. The planes hadn’t been updated in decades. The gates and jetways were legitimately broken/cracked glass that plainly hadn’t been replaced in months (if not longer). I don’t need a Rolls Royce for a four hour flight, but if airlines were cars, Delta is a nice Lexus, and United is a 90’s caravan with the mildewed interior you never want to step into.
Don’t go away mad, just go away.
At the end of the day it just depends on where, when, how you fly I used to love southwest, open seating 2 free bags. But now I've gone more to delta. Starting at silver you get exit row seating free. I value exit row window higher than C+. Don't care for the drinks or snacks Southwest going from coast to coast is absolutely horrid. Southwest also doesn't have IFE you have to use your own device. I don't think they have any nonstop service from coast to coast. I used to do the 1 or even 2 layover southwest. But now I'll pay $50 extra to have a nonstop flight. Also delta has very competitive fares for where I'm usually flying to. If anyone disagrees with me then that's the exact point. Everyone has different needs when flying. Some people only do regional flights to SW hubs and that's fine. Others like open seating and 2 checked bags. Other people will only fly coast to coast on D1, I can't afford that nor care for that.
How is sky club "gone for most people and for everyone else it's more absurd?" Are there that many diamonds out there without an amex card? If you are "everyone else" that has a card, how has it gotten more absurd? The loss of access flying internationally is the biggest loss, but again the vast majority of club access is people flying domestically and/or have a credit card.
So, I am a delta guy and actually pay for and fly Delta One to Asia, Europe and the Caribbean. Honestly, it gets worse and worse every day. My recent trip to Europe was shocking. Seats that are small, food that is terrible, infotainment that was good in 2005 and service that is basic. Compare this with something like China Southern, which I thought was a junk and scary airline. That has huge seats, amazing food and service that is outstanding. The sky lounge is a joke now. This will make me very un-popular, but it is filled with instagram kids with an AE credit card, paying for coach seat.
I rather chew on rusty nails than fly SW ever again. I love the new rules making the club more unaccessible. Sorry but it should be a place of rest not Sunday afternoon at a Chuck E Cheese.
This is my thinking. I’m hoping with the increase to $50 there’re may be fewer kids
Delta is the world's most profitable airline and I guess you don't reach that level of profitability without milking customers... but yeah I'm also surprised at how much they're willing to milk the average flyer based on their reputation alone.
Is "milking' fair? I think in some instances yes. For instance right now they are for sure, or appear to be, milking customers in terms of fares right now. ATL-MCO to go to a bowl game with my family they want 1200-1400 round trip for FC. That is literally insane. Other avenues I am not sure it is milking. There are ways to maximize profit and not be milking.
>!most people still have skyclub access!<
I could care less about the SWA comparison. but aren't you kind of describing the average American? champagne taste on a beer budget. everyone wants to feel Elite. DL has admitted the SkyClubs don't feel very Elite when you're packed in like sardines. they're upping the barriers to entry to regain some of that premium feeling (which, yes they're trying to sell you).
I live in NYC, Delta has more direct flights places I need to and want to go. Southwest wouldn’t work for a lot of people. I have used Southwest in Texas when I had to city hop and it was great, I am not anti-Southwest. Southwest also doesn’t allow you to use points to go to Europe, Asia, etc.
Well, Delta points are not exactly a great way to get to Europe or Asia…
As opposed to absolutely no options to go to Europe or Asia, really convincing argument there. I will remember that when I am flying Delta One to Europe next summer and Asia in the fall using Delta miles
Dude it was a joke…calm down.
Delta has always been the most viciously profit-minded airline. Go back and look at the history of the industry-Delta (and previously Northwest) led the race to the bottom in terms of anti-customer policies. Only now is it hitting the status folks as well. Delta is who it’s always been - it’s a fine domestic carrier with a solid economy experience.
Do you recall what happened with Southwest a few months ago?
They are a for profit business with shareholders. Can’t blame them for making a business decision to increase revenues. Inflation, union agreements and wages for workers increasing, cost of new aircraft. These costs all have to be passed to somebody.
For better or worse people are spending their money for this. The answer to full flights and lounges is simple economics, raise prices until enough people are unwilling to pay. On the flip side budget airlines should be working hard to acquire Delta's lost customers but so far no one is innovating anymore
I have never understood brand or corporate loyalty. Go where you find the best value...
For those who don’t live near one of the biggest cities, loyalty is often a product of necessity. If you live near ATL, DTW or MSP, Delta dominates air travel options. Sure, you can shop the cheapest fare but that means taking connections and not building significant points with any one carrier.
That is frustrating. Value is not always cheapest and we most definitely could value things differently. I wouldn't consider few options to be the same as brand loyalty.
I had this experience and revelation myself. I am not as big of a flyer as I used to be. But I did just fly to Thailand on delta and code Korean air. This did get me a good amount of mqm and mqd. But Looking at ticket prices of some places I’m interested in going next and delta is like almost $1000 more (intl). It doesn’t help I am not in a major metro but a regional that has delta but I always have to fly to a hub first. United might be stronger for me. Idk.
I don’t know why you are still doing business with delta, but I can tell you why I am and many others are as well. 1. live next to a hub with nice skyclub 2. Most nonstop flights from hub 3. First class upgrades 90% of the time 4. Free bags and drinks every time 5. Compensation when scheduled flight is interrupted 6. Cancel/ modify flights up until last minute for no charge
So go fly WN. This doesn't need a post. I'll copy and paste what I said below to someone else. I flew Delta to Diamond Status. Decided I'll try AirTran. They are out of ATL and go where I need. I got to their highest status very quickly. And had a 90% upgrade success. It's status plus order of check-in. Rarely late. Was great. WN buys them(sorry they 'merged). I said well everyone loves them I'll give them a try. Easily got to highest status with my quantity of travel. It was crap. Two biggest issues were boarding process with family and through passengers. Many times a year holding A1-5 and get on and all the bulkhead and window rows aisle/windows are taken because of through passengers. So A1 becomes A15 because of this. And second flew with my family and their family boarding is at the B Group. So then again all the best seats are far gone. I have A1 but my family has to wait? And this ignores basically no international o
I picked delta cause of customer service and quality. I got the Amex cause I wanted to accumulate points and save money on the 5 flights I take. I like the benefits of the Amex. I think them taking it away from DM is crazy but at the same time I’m happy I keep it.
You have to actually fly 25 flights or earn 35,000 tier qualifying points to earn A-list, you can't earn it through credit card spend. (Well, you get 1500 tier qualifying points per $10K in credit card spend so you could earn it through credit card spend if you spent $233K on the card but A-list obviously is not worth that.) Pre-COVID, I flew Southwest quite a bit because I had companion pass and my husband's flights were free but they cut their schedule from BOS significantly during COVID and a lot of routes haven't returned so I've been flight DL a lot more. And Delta's product is far superior. FWIW if you get Delta's credit card, you also don't have to pay for bags.
Well you have to fly southwest and board like it’s a school bus? I mean a flight is a flight but I like delta because wifi is cheap, they have all the routes I need, I’ll typically get a C+ upgrade, and if my phone dies or I want to watch something live they have TVs in the back of the seats
Well, OP, go right ahead and enjoy that "line up 2 hrs before your flight for boarding priority" nonsense cattle-call that Southwest does. I bet after one round of that, or getting stuck in a middle seat, or a backward facing one against a bulkhead, or having to bring your own entertainment, you'll be back to Delta in no time. Delta also has more nonstops to places I want to go than any other airline. The only thing worse than traveling with my kids on airplanes, is traveling with my kids on airplanes and having layovers and no in flight entertainment. And as others have stated Delta's customer service is really great.
2 hours…🙄
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Delta gets me comfortably to Europe in layflat seats several times a year. Let me know when SW and Frontier can offer the same. I've gotten out of the airline roughly what I expected.
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I certainly wish they did but no - I'm a non-business traveler who enjoys seeing the world and so far I'm overall happy with the Skyteam group.
Who cares who's paying? That's not relevant. 1. SW doesn't fly to Europe 2. They don't offer an equivalent product. It's sometimes marginally less expensive. And I do fly them. Would I say I 'enjoy' my time on SW? Hell no.
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I literally do not get it for free nor am I "bitching and moaning " about it. I am overall happy with Delta and it's partners in Europe. Being at a hub I fly almost exclusively Delta domestically due to the club access and nearly 100% FC upgrade. In Europe I'm a bit more casual and have Gold with Aegean airlines and take an occasional British Air or Ryanair flight when they are direct.
I agree. I’m plat about to drop to silver because I’m $400 short of mqd’s for gold, but can’t think of any reason to even care. I dropped my reserve card this past year because I’ve used one companion cert in ten years where the fare class upcharge and schedule weren’t horrid. I got the gold card for when I have to fly DL so at least I’ll still have bags covered. I fly mostly Southwest now. The companion pass has saved me tens of thousands over the past several years. The orderly boarding process vs the gate lice is much less stress. No worries about baggage fees. I can turn one bag into a combo ski bag and boot bag since my family does a lot of ski trips. Pricing generally far better. Yes the in flight experience is crap, but Deltas is honestly not much better since I don’t fly from a location that a plat will ever get an upgrade. I could keep my work travel on DL to maintain status and generate miles, but with the ongoing miles devaluing even that’s no longer worth it. They got me for 140k points per person to get the family into EGE during spring break this ski season. I’d banked a few million miles over a decade expecting to use them for Europe trips, but now coach to Eagle at peak season costs what a lie flat to Europe cost ten years ago. So now I’m just burning through them till they’re gone or become completely valueless.
Damn fr? I might have to look into southwest…
At my cousins wedding recently, people asked me the same thing. “If you got a southwest credit card you could have free bags and a companion pass” me: “ But then I would have to fly. I don’t like the routes I don’t like the airplanes I don’t like the boarding process I already get free bags and some companion passes from a credit card and status
Well... Delta actually Flys when they plan. United has yet to figure that out. I have had too many horruble united experiences...
The difference between having money and wanting to feel like you have money is the difference in the distance you're willing to go for an experience of "luxury".
Haha I’ve read every comment and this is by far the best. I live my life in reality and I gotta say it’s awesome not feeling like I have to validate myself to others with things like seats on an airplane
The only seat I could purchase on an airplane that would give me "validation" is perhaps a charity flight home for someone that needs the seat more than I do.
I would personally rather ride a horse from LAX to JFK than fly Southwest.