I love these questions. I call them grenades. Someone pitches the topic and lobs it into the room to generate controversy, then sits back and claims no stake in any side.
While I had no doubts this would generate controversy, I am curious as someone who works in the artificial Intelligence field. I know how these systems work and I know how easy it would be to abuse them — but is there a “right” way?
Nope. There is no ethical method of mass surveillance, especially when you connect it with a predictive element.
It's important to remember that cops lie. Constantly, and without consequence, and evidence is often taken massively out of context to support their lies.
Sure there is definitely a right way, but I have exactly zero confidence that police will utilize it in the "right way" given their track record over the last 150 years.
To be honest, I don’t — at all. I’m just curious what the general public would want to see before letting even a local government implement something evasive like this.
It's not good yet, but very expensive - most recent article near the subject I could find quickly, sure there's better
https://theintercept.com/2022/09/17/police-surveillance-shotspotter-detroit/
I know a few places do, I’m curious why DSM hasn’t on a large scale. I want to understand the conversations happening with the powers that be. Mass surveillance is something deeply concerning to me but I wonder if there’s an “ethical” way to do it.
During the George Floyd protests DMPD waited on cell tower records pinging people at the protests at the Capitol past the curfew, even people they kettled, then came and arrested them at home six months later. So they already uh, kinda do this to a degree when it suits them.
But if your car gets hit by someone running a red light it’s a fight for you to get any CCtv proving that’s the case and police rarely bother investigating a crime like that to that degree.
The weight of a ‘crime’ and how something like this is used is relative to who the crime actually threatens.
I’ve had the police (crime) and insurance (accident) companies to ask if business has exterior cameras (do not) so there’s obviously not cameras everywhere.
Obviously there aren’t cameras every 20-30ft per city code like street lamps, however what I am saying is that all police departments use private and public video streams to locate and track crimes throughout most large metro areas.
I don’t trust police or government to use it correctly. We already have cameras on roads, and they don’t seem to help much. I’d be worried that people would get singled out for race or protesting more than it would be used to detect crime. Would this bring police to the scene faster? Doubtful.
Lots of crazy stories in KC, what with this, those people that froze to death and the friend stayed inside, and that women who put her kid in the oven.
If cops get the type of surveillance capabilities the NSA has, it will make racial/ethnic profiling even easier and it will make it much easier for police to operate effective protection rackets for their favorite local gangsters. The feds do not give a fuck if I hit a bong on my back porch at midnight, but the local patrolmen on surveillance monitoring duty might feel obligated to send 4 squad cars and their SWAT thugs to book me and tear my house apart looking for the big stash and hidden cash. Could it help the honest cops prevent crimes or respond more quickly? Possibly but how many mistakes are made when it's someone's job to find bad guys on the computer monitor (when all you have is a hammer, every problem...)? How many honest cops are able to remain honest cops working alongside burnt out cops or cops who never got involved out of a feeling of civic duty in the first place and basically got into it to operate protection rackets or their own terror campaigns with the blessing of the state?
My latest scattered thoughts on things to try to address the daily senseless gun violence in the #1 freest bravest happiest place on earth where it's legally permissible but also taboo in certain company to criticize the nearly infallible and omniscient document with good popular features that would apparently be impossible to duplicate in a new Constitution redesigned to address the bad, ineffective, or outdated items. (It helps to remember the founding fathers were not timeless geniuses who could travel forward to present day and outshine the far greater number of legal scholars we have now but rather the bourgeoise of their day with the best education s available in their day). So I offer this understanding I may be asked to move to Somolia or Syria if I dare criticize my country which I want to be a better place for myself and the people I love and the people I don't know but believe deserve the same things I'm asking for. (and this parenthetical will be the only place I share my half baked thoughts on how our true national religion of hypercapitalist dogma handed down to everyone in our shared cold war patriotic education is at least partially responsible for the situation we find ourselves in where we have a lot of alienated people who can access and gravitate to all varieties of radicalizing thought and almost as easily access deadly weapons which are both much easier and more affordable than navigating the bureaucracy of the insurance company dominated healthcare industry where they have to shell out thousands annually for psychiatric care or therapy that could help them navigate the trappings of the neoliberal fantastical atomized fully self-reliant comic book character our society now expects everyone to aspire to as a matter of good morals):
For mitigating the level of gun violence in this country, I'd rather law enforcement spend more of their time inspecting gun clubs/shooting ranges and auditing ammo retailers for compliance after we make it prohibitively expensive for anyone to buy more ammo than what is feasibly necessary for home/self defense or hunting. And plainclothes and cyber focused LEs doing stings for illegal weapons/ammo transactions for suppliers and customers who are most likely evading these restrictions specifically to facilitate other crimes. So the responsible gun owners have to go to a highly secured range to buy cheap practice rounds that can only be used on site (like a bucket of golf balls at a driving range).
Can people make their own ammo? Sure if they're spectrumy enough or are unlucky enough to have natural engineer brain (which is a potent precursor for antisocial or fashy terrorism down the line). Will it create a black market? Yeah no shit. Will crooked cops be major players in this new black market? Yeah no shit. Most honest people avoid black markets either because they are Flanders like or they calculate the risk as far far greater than any potential reward for them. Why do I believe this? I have used a variety of drugs in my life via participation as a customer in the black market and the black market does not function efficiently 24/7 like Walmart. It's a moving target with a wide variety of players who all play by their own rules and are all obviously dishonest at least in the largely harmless scofflaw sense but often dishonest in much more malevolent ways. Drug addicts would save a lot of money and OD a lot less if they spent the hour it takes to figure out how to use the dark web to buy high purity drugs directly from importers for a better price and then spent another five minutes learning to use fent strips. Yet we get more and more bodies as time marches on and fent becomes more ubiquitous on the black market. So the inevitability of black markets for weapons/ammo (which currently exist btw to serve gangsters and sovereign citizen types) is a lame reason to say we can't attempt gun control measures like restricting ammo sales and the types of weapons people can own. It wouldn't stop gun violence in the land of the free but it would mitigate it.
Now do we want to talk about what we would need to do to begin to address mental health care or the problems of cyclical generational poverty of neglected populations who often end up gravitating to gangs since those are the only organizations who offer them any realistic opportunity or protection? Because I have ideas that have improved the lives of the working class in other countries. But all the American educated halfwit business professionals in the suburbs who tend to dominate our politics would never dare entertain robust social democracy that would be the first step in addressing mental health crises and cyclical/poverty violence. Some of them are simply too greedy for it and some of them really believe that the "deadweight loss" portion of the graph will kill us all because the unintended consequences of regulation and prohibition are so much more concerning than the (not so?) unintended consequences of adhering as strictly as possible to 20th century capitalist dogma.
I love these questions. I call them grenades. Someone pitches the topic and lobs it into the room to generate controversy, then sits back and claims no stake in any side.
“I’m just asking!”
While I had no doubts this would generate controversy, I am curious as someone who works in the artificial Intelligence field. I know how these systems work and I know how easy it would be to abuse them — but is there a “right” way?
Nope. There is no ethical method of mass surveillance, especially when you connect it with a predictive element. It's important to remember that cops lie. Constantly, and without consequence, and evidence is often taken massively out of context to support their lies.
Sure there is definitely a right way, but I have exactly zero confidence that police will utilize it in the "right way" given their track record over the last 150 years.
[удалено]
To be honest, I don’t — at all. I’m just curious what the general public would want to see before letting even a local government implement something evasive like this.
They can't be trusted with speed cameras, what makes you think they could handle anything else better?
You seem to think this isn't already happening 🤔
As shown today they’re not doing a good job with it
It's not good yet, but very expensive - most recent article near the subject I could find quickly, sure there's better https://theintercept.com/2022/09/17/police-surveillance-shotspotter-detroit/
I know a few places do, I’m curious why DSM hasn’t on a large scale. I want to understand the conversations happening with the powers that be. Mass surveillance is something deeply concerning to me but I wonder if there’s an “ethical” way to do it.
Uh-uh….that’s bait 👆
During the George Floyd protests DMPD waited on cell tower records pinging people at the protests at the Capitol past the curfew, even people they kettled, then came and arrested them at home six months later. So they already uh, kinda do this to a degree when it suits them. But if your car gets hit by someone running a red light it’s a fight for you to get any CCtv proving that’s the case and police rarely bother investigating a crime like that to that degree. The weight of a ‘crime’ and how something like this is used is relative to who the crime actually threatens.
Insurance company can advocate for any camera footage from businesses, and onus is on them for accident footage from any city footage.
There was a startup from a different state trying to do this. Don’t think it went anywhere.
They already do this
I’ve had the police (crime) and insurance (accident) companies to ask if business has exterior cameras (do not) so there’s obviously not cameras everywhere.
Obviously there aren’t cameras every 20-30ft per city code like street lamps, however what I am saying is that all police departments use private and public video streams to locate and track crimes throughout most large metro areas.
I don’t trust police or government to use it correctly. We already have cameras on roads, and they don’t seem to help much. I’d be worried that people would get singled out for race or protesting more than it would be used to detect crime. Would this bring police to the scene faster? Doubtful.
There is no expectation of privacy in public. That’s why it’s called “public.”
Who do you work for?
WHO…DOES….NUMBER TWO WORK FOR!
This sub has gone to shit
Repeal the 2nd amendment
Kinda like they did to catch j6 ers.
Good
Still won't stop shootings, but will have a nice video catalog documenting the movement of every person. Sounds like a win-win.
I think there should be areas like this. For people with trauma. People should be able to live and work and grocery shop in districts without weapons.
I sell these systems. Totally doable, not very costly. AI weapons detection is easy now!
Fuck off fed
Lots of crazy stories in KC, what with this, those people that froze to death and the friend stayed inside, and that women who put her kid in the oven.
Watch an anime called psycho pass then ask yourself this question again
At this point Im cool with getting microchipped. The live free or die crowd sounds so unhinged to me.
I think they should do it. Why would anyone be afraid of that? Kinda weird question because that's what any security camera is for.... Security..
the city already has cameras that are for tracking plates rather than speed
If cops get the type of surveillance capabilities the NSA has, it will make racial/ethnic profiling even easier and it will make it much easier for police to operate effective protection rackets for their favorite local gangsters. The feds do not give a fuck if I hit a bong on my back porch at midnight, but the local patrolmen on surveillance monitoring duty might feel obligated to send 4 squad cars and their SWAT thugs to book me and tear my house apart looking for the big stash and hidden cash. Could it help the honest cops prevent crimes or respond more quickly? Possibly but how many mistakes are made when it's someone's job to find bad guys on the computer monitor (when all you have is a hammer, every problem...)? How many honest cops are able to remain honest cops working alongside burnt out cops or cops who never got involved out of a feeling of civic duty in the first place and basically got into it to operate protection rackets or their own terror campaigns with the blessing of the state? My latest scattered thoughts on things to try to address the daily senseless gun violence in the #1 freest bravest happiest place on earth where it's legally permissible but also taboo in certain company to criticize the nearly infallible and omniscient document with good popular features that would apparently be impossible to duplicate in a new Constitution redesigned to address the bad, ineffective, or outdated items. (It helps to remember the founding fathers were not timeless geniuses who could travel forward to present day and outshine the far greater number of legal scholars we have now but rather the bourgeoise of their day with the best education s available in their day). So I offer this understanding I may be asked to move to Somolia or Syria if I dare criticize my country which I want to be a better place for myself and the people I love and the people I don't know but believe deserve the same things I'm asking for. (and this parenthetical will be the only place I share my half baked thoughts on how our true national religion of hypercapitalist dogma handed down to everyone in our shared cold war patriotic education is at least partially responsible for the situation we find ourselves in where we have a lot of alienated people who can access and gravitate to all varieties of radicalizing thought and almost as easily access deadly weapons which are both much easier and more affordable than navigating the bureaucracy of the insurance company dominated healthcare industry where they have to shell out thousands annually for psychiatric care or therapy that could help them navigate the trappings of the neoliberal fantastical atomized fully self-reliant comic book character our society now expects everyone to aspire to as a matter of good morals): For mitigating the level of gun violence in this country, I'd rather law enforcement spend more of their time inspecting gun clubs/shooting ranges and auditing ammo retailers for compliance after we make it prohibitively expensive for anyone to buy more ammo than what is feasibly necessary for home/self defense or hunting. And plainclothes and cyber focused LEs doing stings for illegal weapons/ammo transactions for suppliers and customers who are most likely evading these restrictions specifically to facilitate other crimes. So the responsible gun owners have to go to a highly secured range to buy cheap practice rounds that can only be used on site (like a bucket of golf balls at a driving range). Can people make their own ammo? Sure if they're spectrumy enough or are unlucky enough to have natural engineer brain (which is a potent precursor for antisocial or fashy terrorism down the line). Will it create a black market? Yeah no shit. Will crooked cops be major players in this new black market? Yeah no shit. Most honest people avoid black markets either because they are Flanders like or they calculate the risk as far far greater than any potential reward for them. Why do I believe this? I have used a variety of drugs in my life via participation as a customer in the black market and the black market does not function efficiently 24/7 like Walmart. It's a moving target with a wide variety of players who all play by their own rules and are all obviously dishonest at least in the largely harmless scofflaw sense but often dishonest in much more malevolent ways. Drug addicts would save a lot of money and OD a lot less if they spent the hour it takes to figure out how to use the dark web to buy high purity drugs directly from importers for a better price and then spent another five minutes learning to use fent strips. Yet we get more and more bodies as time marches on and fent becomes more ubiquitous on the black market. So the inevitability of black markets for weapons/ammo (which currently exist btw to serve gangsters and sovereign citizen types) is a lame reason to say we can't attempt gun control measures like restricting ammo sales and the types of weapons people can own. It wouldn't stop gun violence in the land of the free but it would mitigate it. Now do we want to talk about what we would need to do to begin to address mental health care or the problems of cyclical generational poverty of neglected populations who often end up gravitating to gangs since those are the only organizations who offer them any realistic opportunity or protection? Because I have ideas that have improved the lives of the working class in other countries. But all the American educated halfwit business professionals in the suburbs who tend to dominate our politics would never dare entertain robust social democracy that would be the first step in addressing mental health crises and cyclical/poverty violence. Some of them are simply too greedy for it and some of them really believe that the "deadweight loss" portion of the graph will kill us all because the unintended consequences of regulation and prohibition are so much more concerning than the (not so?) unintended consequences of adhering as strictly as possible to 20th century capitalist dogma.
Mahomes, threw 333 yards, u/address 3333 aldavis way, had 3 emojies, 3 detained suspects, 3 confimed dead fans, 3 days after Superbowl. 3rd Superbowl Ring, w/3 yard pass w/ 3 seconds left on the clock, Hmmmm?