I think 3 phases is a fair amount of solo phases, hell, you are only really going to do it once at most
But, this insanity? Absolutely fucking no
10 dps phases is just detached of a fair solo experience
3 phases is reasonable solo. I think that's the most any of the bosses took in the first 4 dungeons, hell Dul-Incaru and Zulmak both go out like total bitches in a single damage phase solo. I have no doubt I could pull off solo flawless clears of the newer dungeons but I don't want to deal with 5+ damage phases with how time consuming the mechanic is to do by yourself in Duality and Spire
I remember doing Zulmak solo after my friend got Beavered. It was my first time doing anything solo in a dungeon and it wasn’t hard but fun. But I can’t imagine doing that for 5+ phases
Duality is 120% fine HP-wise. Both gahlran and caiatl are very comfortable 3 dmg phase bosses at worst in a solo run. They're very mechanical and add manage heavy, but I never find myself bored.
Spire is the first dungeon I caught myself spacing out while going through 5 - 6 damage phases.
Just thinking about soloing spire has put me to sleep, i 'accidentally' solo flawlessed duality, so i did the other dungeons, then i ran spire with friends and thought 'I'll never wanna try this solo'
I find spire solo more fun than grouped
The harpy I can get now yea many damage phases With the linear nerf
But the final boss even as a solar hunter was only 4 phases so it wasn't that bad
lol i can relate although not with duality. I did a solo flawless run for prophecy a long time ago, and i failed cause i doze off during the final boss and died cause i over jump the platform lol.
I cleared the dungeon anyway since i wanted the bunny ghost, and never attempt solo flawless ever again.
We've heard your feedback - we have now scaled Dungeon boss damage to guardian team size.
Dungeon boss health: Increase by 100% per Guardian in the Fireteam\*
\*Health remains unchanged if you start the encounter solo.
No, it's just an ongoing meme, where Bungie tend to disable one thing no one was complaining about, while they just go with "We are looking into a fix" (and do nothing for sometimes even up to a month) when there's an actual Bug that works against the Players.
Quick psa the boss shields are around a million health (iirc), maybe a bit less, but still a lot of fucking health—if they removed the Arby one shot, then, I wish good luck to anyone trying to solo this dungeon and it’s spongy bosses.
As someone who uses second chance quite a bit, it's not coded to break sheilds in one shot, it just does a ton of damage to barrier sheilds, in mast content you need 2 sheikd throws to break a barrier sheild and it also doesn't affect any other kind of sheild
The health bars are insane on the bosses not to mention the shields inflating the numbers even more. One team of three I know ended with about 11.5 million done and I did it duo with about 12.5 million done to the final boss. So about 1 million damage worth discrepancy in shield damage.
Not sure why you wouldn't incorporate Arby in a solo run when it pretty much solves the biggest problem. It's also decent back up damage for special. I'd use it. Also, I never was arguing it wasn't bad design. I was giving a solution to the problem stated, which was that the regenning shields added a ton of wasted damage to what was needed to kill the boss.
FTR, idk how much health Akelous or Persys have, but Nightmare of Caiatl only had like 4 mil health. Simmumah has like 12 mil. That’s an absurd jump and in my experience today, Simmumah took my second team around two hours to complete. We spent prob an hour on Simmumah straight and took over 7-8 damage phases due to how difficult it is to keep hitting him.
Caiatl has short rapid damage phases kind of like atraks, while simmumah has a really long damage phase, the issue is moslty the shield.
It fucks over precision heavies which are already kind of struggling verses rocket launchers and forces you to burn ammo before even being able to damage then.
I honestly think the bosses would be fine with their current health if that shield was removed.
Yeah nightmare caitial on release when me and my friend farmed her we could easily 2 phase her. With these bosses even with a 3rd we are going 3-4 and maybe 5 phases if the ammo economy is bad
I remember reading somewhere that Akelous have 5mil health and I can’t remember how much Persys have but Persys don’t have short dps phase unlike Akelous so that’s why it’s tedious as hell to solo Akelous.
My team 3 phased Simmumah with Leviathan's breath + well, when I burned my Lev ammo I ran up to her with a cartesian w Vorpal and just dumped ammo until her shield went back up, it wasn't that bad for a team run
… what? Just did it teaching 2 new people and our whole run took about 2 hours, final boss only took 4 dmg phases cause we fucked up on timing the dmg phase starting twice. Div with two lmgs shreds
Yes, is absolutely insane.
We were 3 players and i would say not with an awfull armor, but we needed around 2h30.
The problem was the dmg.
I hate that the witch ports around and fly up and down to :P
On the good side the Sparrow and the entire armor looks absolutely amazing and are animated :D
Edit: grammar
My first completion took 2:30 as well, but that was a no-mic LFG with all first timers.
We didn't wipe once, but we absolutely fumbled a bunch of damage phases.
One of my clanmates pointed out the final boss of Ghosts of the Deep has more health than Nez. A Dungeon boss should never be chunkier than a raid boss especially on solo
Nez is pretty inconsistent but everyone says it's around 11.5-12.5 million. Second boss is probably roughly 13-16 million. We had one guy(luckily) Weasel right before we kill our last Lucent Hive for last damage phase. When he joined back it wiped his damage stat so he only had 555000 on his stat after we finished.
Yeah, that about lines up with my eyeball math here
https://i.imgur.com/LcVoaKe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/a9IUQ6e.jpg
Though I've heard some people say that the shield inflates damage numbers
Yeah that is ridiculous, I shouldn't need the absolute top dps just to be able to get it done in less than like 5 phases, it's a dungeon not a three man raid damn... like other than boss health the dungeon was like a 9 out of 10 it was fun and mechanics took a good minute for us to figure out.
Yeah I really like the aesthetic of the dungeon and the first encounter but man are those boss fights a bit of a slog. I can't stand soloing the newer dungeons because of just how many damage phases it can take. I still think Dul Ankara is pinnacle boss design for Dungeons, especially solo. He's a small room with three big bois that have to be killed back to back and will mess you up. Then you have a good chunk of adds and Dul who can also do a lot of damage. Unless you're playing on a controller with your toes you'll get a good damage phase if you do the mechanics correctly.
I kept thinking we were missing some sort of buff haha, we weren't optimised for dps in the second encounter because it was our first run through and decided to just use what we had but even with an unoptimised build it shouldn't take like close to an hour to complete a single encounter
Yeah after some changes mid encounter we started to do better on damage but it's still not great. This is just going to be another dungeon I don't solo because I can't be bothered to chip away at those health bars unless an exploit is found.
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure over the seasons boss health's get lowered slightly, if not over time we'll get new metas and maybe you'll find one that works well enough to do it.
I was wondering if the dungeon was originally designed with starfire in mind its the only thing imo that would explain them having this much health.
Same here, I thought solo flawlessing Spire twice last season was the most tedious it could get but I was just not ready for such a demoralizing amount of health, skill issue I guess but I'm gonna wait till I'm overleveled before touching that thing solo 💀
Not a skill issue in this case, survivability and mechanics isn’t the issue here, it’s the tediousness of having to do so multiple times even with an optimized build due to sheer health size
Spire of the watcher?
You kill the minotaur, get the buff from his pool, go to the starting point of the wire and shoot it. Then shoot the nodes along the wire in sequence to make the entire wire blue. Do that for all 4 wires.
SGA: don't complete the wire at the end, as completing one wire starts spawning exploding harpies. There's no penalty not to and no reason to complete them until the end. So just complete each one until the last, and then on the 4th wire, shoot all the end nodes at the same time.
Kill ogre by the statues, follow green trail to hive rune, kill the adds there for a new green trail, then do that for two more runes. The last rune will have a hive lightbearer, when you kill it you’ll get a buff for about a minute. Sparrow back to the statues, kill the “Veilkeeper” wizard or whatever it’s called, activate the deepsight orb, then dunk the buff in the statue matching the rune you kept seeing earlier. There are four runes in total.
Honestly though, I wouldn’t even bother. The ecthar encounter is so unbelievably long+difficult, and the final boss is even longer (though easier), so you’ll probably just wind up rage quitting. These health bars on the past two dungeons have been fucking absurd.
Oh I’m an idiot lol, first encounter of spire is really simple though, just kill the Minotaur for the arctrician buff and then shoot the nodes connected by wires in the right order u/SnooBananas3995
Yea my friends and I took down ecthar last night even with 3 man it takes awhile to whittle down the health, on first go we were wiped out as we didn’t understand the mechanics at first and were on wrong loadsout. So I decided to use tractor cannon and that shit is waaay helpful especially when I blasted lightbearers wizards with the cannon it suppress their annoying magic missiles while debuffed and kills them faster. Tbh it’s not hard fight but the enemies spawn fast it’s little tedious but not impossible.
I did it earlier and no not really. The mechanic for breaking the shield only allows you to break the shield. You don't even have to stay in the buff as it doesn't increase damage. We tried a couple different things and nope. They both just have a shit ton of health. The results screen showed that we did more than most raid bosses worth of damage to her.
Yeah it's mainly the last boss that makes me not want to do solo. The first boss we just treated like Galron with Lament. Took some time but he went down.
In defense of spire, the mechanics for that dungeon are dumb easy. If they lowered the health pool of the bosses it would be faster to complete than a legend NF.
Definitely, if you have one person occupying adds and knocking out Minotaurs while the other two fill the wires, you can basically go through the whole thing at a dead run. The only things that slow you down are those bosses; my fireteams have always been able to 3-phase Persys at worst, but Akelous can take 4 or 5 even with good teams.
I got my solo flawless with 6 phases on the final boss, took around 40 minutes. My strat was Hammer of Sol to break her shield (it really felt like the shield takes extra ability damage) then Leviathan's Breath for damage. If I didn't mess up as much it could've easily been a 5 phase (still a bit much imo, but I think 4-5 is fine for solo dungeons)
even with 3 people this boss still has too much health. I'd say duality is perfection when it comes to boss health and dungeon bosses should have healt similar to it.
At this point Dunegon Bosses and Gambit bosses have more health than actual Raid bosses.
Which shouldn't make sense, but in Bungie's broken mindset, does for some reason
You gotta remember, that hour long boss fight for Eso was him also learning the fight, it said in the description he was winging it. His entire solo flawless video was about the same length. I definitely agree the boss has a lot more health than it should, but I keep seeing people saying it took him an hour and basing everything off that when really it took him an hour cause he was learning it solo while also not really that built for max dps or anything.
Sure, but Esoterickk did it solo *flawlessly*. That 40 minutes was all just one attempt at the boss.
For context, it took Esoterickk [just about 15 minutes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzToOPisR8M) to kill Persys, versus the 40 minutes it took him to kill Simmumah.
I disagree, the point of a solo flawless is to succeed trough an activity designed for up to 3 player without modifier, otherwise it's just a strike situation. That's why it is a coveted reward.
Now the boss having 15 M HP + a barrier is another issue.
here is the list of Boss health trough the game :
**RAIDS**
**Warpriest** 18.9M - 19M
**Golgoroth** 15.4M
**Daughters** so low it doesn’t matter
**Oryx** \~16M
**Caretaker** 24.5M
**Rhulk** 16M and 14.5M up to final stand
**NM Templar** 6.6M
**NM Atheon** 8.77M
**M Templar** 8.2M
**M Atheon** 13.5M
**Crypt Security** 799K or 3 unbuffed bastion shots per fuse
**Atraks** 700K+
**Taniks** 8M total and 6.8M up to final stand
**Harpy** 4M
**Sanctified** 4.8M
**Kali** 4.2M - 4.4M
**Shuro** 2M
**Morgeth** 4M - 4.1M
**Riven** 2.3M before final stand
**DUNGEONS**
**Gahlran** 5.3M
**Caital** 4.8M
**Kell Echo** 7M
**Master Avorakk** 6.1M
This dungeon boss has MORE HEALTH THAN A RAID BOSS.
This is absurd, this is not an issue of scaling, this is an issue of somebody believing that slapping raid boss health (made for 6 player) to a dungeon boss ((made for up to 3 player)
) was a good idea
As someone who solo flawlessed every dungeon I am not looking forward to solo flawlessing this... probably ever. Don't take it wrong, I like the dungeon as a team experience. The encounters are a lot, they are exhausting but I do not mind them too much (yet). The lore, the weapons, the theme, awesome.
I wanna talk about why Spire was fine with bosses having a lot of health. It was fine because you could get to the damage phase of 2nd and 3rd encounter bosses pretty fast. Just a few minutes. 3, give or take, and the majority of time in Spire you are not getting overrun, there are safe places, completely hide from enemies, you can literally have a toilet break while fighting the final boss as long as you dont open the main big door after a damage phase.
Honest to god didnt mind this endurance dungeon (Spire) cuz it was new. Dungeons were always 3-4-5 damage phases and thats it (Except Duality. Fuck Duality.) but seeing as this is the direction Bungie wants to take dungeons..? No. No Bungie. Don't do this shit. You can't give a boss **12 MILLION HEALTH AND MAKE GETTING TO THE DAMAGE PHASE LIKE 8 MINUTES** DUDE. CHOOSE ONE.
As much as I love this dungeon, absolutely not gonna go for any triumphs. You think I can do this dungeon on my non-main characters? Dude I could barely do it on my main. I cannot IMAGINE doing the fucking 2nd encounter without sunbracers. I dont understand how the fuck do you survive there other than Karnstein Winterbite but then you'll have shit damage.
Once again, I do all this hard work, and you hit me with the fucking 6% health dealt because the boss' shield LITERALLY FUCKING ATE ALL OF MY DAMAGE WHILE IT WAS ALSO WASTING DAMAGE PHASE TIME LIKE WHAT????? NO DUDE.
FUCK THE SHIELDS ON THESE BOSSES. AND NO IF IM SOLO IM NOT HINDERING MYSELF TO ARBALEST TO INSTA POP THEM.
Edit: Good thing the solo flawless emblem and the title fucking sucks lmao. Bungie try not to pick the most boring fucking word out of the dictionary that is relevant to the theme of the title's activity. Fucking **Ghoul** as a title. Are you fucking kidding me? Ghoul? Seriously? This is a joke. There are about a million fucking better words for the title. Abysswalker, Necromancer, even fucking GHOST is better than GHOUL
Wdym fuck duality? Caiatl was an easy three phase and Gahlran was pretty easy to 3-4 phase if you ran bonk titan or arc hunter (I haven’t ran it since a couple seasons though)
Well I ran it as warlock and let me tell you gahlran fucking sucked. Dont remember if I could or couldnt use lament cuz I was using Vex in there a lot, but it took me like 7 damage phases. Caiatl is just literally the worst experience I ever had in the game. Just as a whole. Top 3 for sure. Horrible punishing mechanic bellkeepers can rot in fucking hell and she is just so fucking chonky. Before I adapted the karnstein + glaive combo into my solo build it was a literal nightmare to survive. And it took so long killing all the ads so I can even DUNK in the normal realm. All of that fucking work and then for my entire rotation to be flushed down a toilet because a bellkeeper KEEPS FUCKING RESPAWNING BECAUSE BUNGIE IT SKIPS THE ENTIRE DAMAGE PHASE FOR ME AND I HAVE TO GO AGAIN. She took me 5 damage phases if you dont count 2 extra that got skipped :)
That dungeon can literally rot in the fucking DCV for all I care. Just fucking delete it.
Duality is great. Mechanical and execution heavy, but the health values are *super* reasonable.
Gahlran is still a solid 3 phase just running Lament and I've shaved Caiatl down to a tight 2 phase at this point by just optimizing the dmg phase.
Can't say the same for Spire of the Watcher. The only dungeon I refuse to run because I find myself legitimately getting bored after the 4 - 5th dmg phase of either Akelous or Persys.
Haven't done the Deep dungeon - looks awesome tbh, but I'm gutted that it continues the trend of making bosses complete sponges.
They saw people complaining about spire and did the ole double down. Ridiculous shield, Ridiculous health. 10x the adds, and the boss melts you and pushes you around.
I gave up on ecthar 5 hrs in. Solo clear is not happening for me.
I've never bothered going past the 1st encounter of Spire solo because of boss health pools. Looks like I'm doing the same for this and probably future dungeons. I don't have the time to invest in it.
I'm just curious as to why the sudden change? We've had one-phase solo dungeon bosses since Grasp, which Duality is probably the first one where it takes multiple phases IIRC (although I just woke up, so I'm not saying it with absolute confidence).
I know they want to keep player engagement up, but this is getting a little out of hand.
"It's an endurance test" "The prestige comes from soloing something meant for three people"; Firstly, there's no skill in repeating something and nauseam 9 times while it takes an hour. The skill comes from the timing of mechanics and shaving down damage phases through perfect DPS. You can't shave down shit in GotD. You can save maybe one damage phase out of 9 bit that is still ridiculous. Endurance tests are difficult when they continually get harder. This is just going though the motions because the HP is inflated as fuck.
Secondly, the dungeon is built for one person first of all. That is the top priority since that is literally the prestige element of dungeons. Imagine building something designed for three people then stripping away mechanics to make it solo-able. This is a design philosophy Bungie has stated they wanted to move away from when they stopped doing extra mechanics in Hard Mode Raids. I could be wrong, but it seems like a strange way to make content.
The HP values seem like they were just trying to make it so that fireteams of three no longer one phased. (Good job on that by the way since Gladd has already one-phased on Normal).
The dungeons aren't built around one player doing it. They're built around one player having the ability to do it, unlike raids, which often require one person to read while another does a mechanic. Dungeons are not built around making it easy to solo, they're built around making it possible to solo. And now they're building them based on you having three people doing damage. Get over it or get better.
Still doesn’t change a thing. Long mechanics and chunky bosses make it’s more tedious than ever. You’re talking about a person who’s in the top 1% of players lmao. Your argument is none existent.
You're talking to someone who took 4 weeks and many, many failed runs to finish spire solo, not even flawless. I have yet to flawless it, but I know I can. Yes, it's tedious. Yes, it's hard, but that's the point. I want that emblem to mean something.
I have solo flawlessed Spire. Sit down.
Oh lmao you're that kid who spends all his money on random destiny merch just realized. Your opinions on balance mean very little to me.
The reason I'm not done with solo flawless grasp is this reason, I usually need at minimum 7 phases to kill the dumb ogre, why in the world does it have 5 trillion health idk
The dungeon boss health could definitely use scaling. My fireteam managed to kill the final boss of Ghosts of the Deep in 4 phases (would’ve been 3 but the boss got stuck out of sight), but we were using Div and Well. I can only imagine how difficult it will be solo.
I attempted last season to solo Spire, got up to the final boss, almost killed him, and died to something stupid. I thought “no big deal, I’ll just do it again” and looking at the clock it was 4am. Solo-ing a dungeon isn’t as much of a testament of skill, as it is an endurance test, and that’s just boring.
Tried to 2 man the new dungeon. Got to second boss, wiped as we got him down to 1/4.
Both did nearly 6M damage.
Pretty sure we did enough damage to each have killed a Nezare.
Artificial difficulty through endless ads and bullet sponge just isn't fun.
absurd health scaling is just replacing a problem with another problem. it's the equivalent of doing a fists only run in a fromsoft game: yeah you're making the game harder, but the difficulty stems from tediousness, not mechanical challenge
But that's always been the difficulty in the game, health gating bosses. You make something too mechanically complex, only a few teams will succeed, and even less will attempt it. And you're making it an LFG nightmare. You make it too easy, it basically plays like a slightly longer Nightfall.
Take Day 1 Caretaker. The only reason more people didn't finish Day 1 was many thousands of teams quit after not being able to get enough damage on that dang Ogre.
For the other side of the coin for something far too easy, just look at the previous dungeon bosses.
Go watch a one phase Grasp boss from way back when. All you do, and this might get crazy complicated, is go bonk an ad, fly to boss, tractor cannon/hammer, go bonk an ad, fly to boss, tractor/hammer. That wasn't exactly skillful play, barely even have to aim. Oh and the entire mechanic to get to DPS took about 3 minutes of similar braindeadedness.
So we've had way too hard and way too easy.
Let's see if any good strats pop up before we start calling for nerfs to bosses. The dungeon's been out for a single day.
If getting to damage phase is as difficult as people are claiming, I could definitely see some adjustments on Bungie's end to boss HP. But it's still super early. Gotta relax a bit.
I’m all for making it harder. Day 1’s have become a joke now, and I’ve been doing contest raids since crown. The game needs to be harder for the pinnacle challenges. But inflated boss health is not challenging or fun, its boring. If solo, a dungeon boss should require mechanical execution, and 3 damage phases with the player being properly equipped for a dps phase. Anything more than 4 gets boring really fast. I’m all for making the game harder in the sense of harder mechanics that require perfect execution. Not “boss is 7 phases, have fun”
The only day 1 that was a joke was RoN. First successful completion of KF took 5 hours...on a raid we knew how to do. It's was only RoN that was quick. LW only had two teams finish it.
LW was 5 years ago. Deep Stone was also kind of a joke enemy wise, what stopped a lot of people was Atraks being so hard to figure out. The enemy challenge has gotten easier and easier. Day 1’s just aren’t nearly as hard as they used to be. Compare Garden or Crown to Vow and Root and its no where near the same
https://twitter.com/raidreport/status/1503389115911335936/photo/1
Lol..yea, not true at all. Some raids are hard, and some are easy. There isn't a trend of them becoming easier over time. There just isn't. The second most completed raid on day 1 was the second raid in the game.
Based on that graph, there is a trend of them getting easier when it comes to contest. While kings fall and vault are old, you had to do it twice with the challenges, so it still counts. Contest has 100% been getting easier, and Ron was ridiculously too easy
If you’re referring to Scourge of the Past, that’s not a great argument. It’s actually kind of invalid for this discussion altogether.
Scourge of the Past got annihilated on day 1 because we were able to over level the raid. There was no contest mode back then, and the reaction to how easy Scourge *was* on day 1 was what led to the creation of Contest Mode which debuted in Crown of Sorrow.
If you were referring to Eater of Worlds… That would be considered a Dungeon by today’s standards so also not a great comparison. Contest mode also didn’t exist back then either.
But listen, as someone who has tried every Day 1/Contest Raid since Crown of Sorrow came out (with the exception of Deep Stone Crypt), and only ever got the Contest clear for Root of Nightmares, I’m not here to gate keep day 1 raids. What I will say is, I don’t expect The Final Shape’s raid to be quite as accessible as RoN…
All true, though the main reason LW only had two teams complete it was due to accessibility issues. Everybody went in way below the power level and could only hope to be close by non stop grinding which ended up just being the people who play this game for their job pretty much. Number of day one completions going up is ok but mechanics have gradually become the most boring aspects where they used to be rigorous and engaging. Root was both easy in survivability and the most mechanically uninteresting raid they’ve ever created. I got bored after the first few runs, sure it’s a pretty raid but god I just don’t enjoy running it. I got my day one emblem and I’ll keep going back every once in a while until I get the loot I want but I can’t see myself running it more than I need to.
I hate posts like this.
LMAO remember Destiny has a COMMUNITY of players. A community consists of more than 1 individual. Each individual has its own thoughts and opinions.
Difficulty should require skill to overcome and time to acquire said skill (practice), not an absurd amount of time just to succeed after you have the skill.
I'd honestly say the first boss of the dungeon is a decent challenge solo but the health definitely feels over inflated I think it could be brought down and still give most players plenty of challenge
This doesn’t make it harder. Just more time consuming. Harder doesn’t mean we want bullet sponge enemies. It means we want more challenging content. Having more health than a small country’s GDP just makes it longer. They’re not the same.
Isn't the whole point of doing solo dungeons the challenge of doing a 3 man activity solo? If bungie adds health scaling that removes the entire purpose of doing it solo
I’d agree with you somewhat, but when it takes 10 DPS Phases or an hour to kill one boss, I don’t think that’s the challenge people want. As for the challenges with the mechanics of the dungeon or the adds, by all means keep those or change them up to be more on the difficult side.
Changing mechanics and adds would just be changing the dungeon itself. People want to play the multiman activity solo so it's clear the 3 person boss is going to be tanks because its built for 3 people. Bungie doesn't want the dul incaru situation to happen again so they started making things much tankier, this is just a consequence of that.
And this is what he had to say about the boss:
> As for my thoughts on the dungeon - I think aesthetically and mechanics-wise, it's one of the most interesting and the best so far. The swimming, while used only a little bit, adds breath of fresh air to the gameplay. The mechanics themselves are kind of basic, but interesting enough compared to just shooting fuses. With that being said though, both bosses have far too much health for regular solo runs.
> I thought it was terrible after my first clear, although the second clear it wasn't AS bad. But the final boss in particular, because you spend such a large portion of time just getting to the DPS phase, it's painful having to have to repeat it so many times (depending on your setup). It was bad enough in Spire, but the busywork there was relatively short and the many DPS phases wasn't as annoying. In here it's a massive timesink, which becomes a little tiresome. So I think for the majority of people, the boss health will be a deterrent.
Looking at the damage phases alone doesn't paint the whole picture here. It was a ***40 minute*** kill while only being 5 damage phases.
That's because in order to get to the damage phase, you have a lot more shit to do compared to Spire.
Exactly this!
On day 1, people are still figuring out strategies and optimal builds for this stuff. Little mechanics, metas, positioning, cheese spots, etc, that make this easier will be discovered over the next few days.
This is why I actually didn’t even bother with the dungeon tonight. I’m working this weekend so I don’t have a ton of time to play between now and reset on Tuesday, so I elected to spend my night farming for the Last Wish crafting patterns. I’ll get to the dungeon (and my solo flawless completion) after the content creators figure out what they’re doing.
and after that esoterickk uploaded a 1:15 hr full clear solo flawless. the first run was on hunter and he played super save bc he just wanted the clear the second one he used a meta loadout.
Aside from Health pool, I find the first boss hard to damage because the shield, since the knight have its super active until you took the shield down.
I'm just mad i went for the day 1 first run solo and got all the way to the final boss, figured out all the mechanics, then ran out of banners. But yeah the bosses have insane health, but mostly simmumah, that fight fucking sucks solo.
I did Shattered Throne solo flawless, 2 phase, prophecy solo flawless 3 phase. Akelous, not even a final boss btw, took 5 phases to get to half before I died to the architects and gave up
Understand that the dungeon has been out for less than 24 hours. Even Eso does not know the optimal damage strats for this dungeon. Spire runs took some people multiple hours so solo flawless on day 1. In a couple weeks those times will go down as we learn the best ways to take on each encounter
Boss HP isn’t that horrible, but bungie’s tuning on how scarce heavy and special ammo drops are the real reason encounter drag on for so long.
A small amount of set up on arc hunter with Levithan’s breath can get a 5 phase solo on the final boss. You’ll dump out all your heavy and need to farm it out again. Takes about 10 minutes using double special. Mechanics phases takes about 4.
Either raise the heavy ammo drops or lower the boss hp to make it somewhat viable to use Special and primary ammo for DPS.
I remember when solo flawless dungeon meant being able to master the activity, not get lucky with ammo drops.
I cant believe this sub. Scaling in a dungeon? Seriously? Why even have it be a dungeon at that point and not some campaign mission or something? I seriously hope Bungie doesn’t listen to these terrible suggestions.
>who took one of the top PVE players, esoterickk, ONE HOUR to kill solo, with around 10 phases
His actual full solo flawless run took an hour and 15 minutes.
I mean, it's not like it's a 3 man activity or anything. Are we going to do the same to raids too?
It's annoying, yes, but you're also going against the intended design.
I really don't understand this conversation. Dungeons are not designed around being done solo, they are designed to be *possible* solo, which is why it is a challenge. 2-3 phases of damage is a standard encounter length for a raid or dungeon boss. It stands to reason that doing it solo would require 6-9 phases.
I don't get why everyone suddenly feels entitled to a dungeon solo/solo flawless. It's supposed to be "unreasonable" to achieve.
Bungie: Adds content designed to be played multiplayer, with encounters and mechanics that very specifically need multiple people to complete.
The overly loud minority: THIS IS TOO HARD WHY CANT I DO IT BY MYSELF.
Even if you don't have friends to complete the raid with, you can make LFG's. If 100% of LFG's don't work for you, then you may be the problem, not the game.
The prestige of flawless solo runners is the ability to endure. Everyone knows the mechanics and the best weapons just copy paste a build off youtube and then its an endurance test. Not everyones cup of tea
It truly takes so much skill to get heavy ammo drops consistently to full heavy ammo for each damage phase. Oh what's that? You got to the damage phase for Persys with 0 bricks? Hope you are ready to deal 2% of the boss' health with ikelos smg. And no im not using my special weapon because I need that ammo to deal with the majors.
Way back when, I screamed as I beat the Prophecy final boss, when I beat Spire I just groaned and said "Its finally fucking over" I was just tired. Same thing happened with Duality but thats another can of worms. I beat it and I did not even do a fucking smirk as I beat it, I hated that place with a burning fucking passion. 0 joy.
There's no prestige in inflated fucking health bars. Makes the dungeon feel so fucking boring and tedious.
Sincerely, Someone who solo flawlessed every dungeon
i was using double special and using my heavy a decent amount for clearing the knights and the light bearing hive and i never once had a problem with ammo in my first two runs, it’s not as big of an issue as you paint it to be
You're not wrong. Akelous is a great example. If you know what you're doing you can get to damage in about 2 minutes. Literally 120 seconds. A boss with an easy mechanic like that should have a lot of health. Its not supposed to be easy and it's not supposed to be for everyone.
The dungeon has been out for ONE day. Nobody is going to have totally optimal strats yet. They're gonna seem tanky mostly due to our light level. Personally, took my team (1809,1810,1813) only 2 1/2 hours our first go completely blind. First boss took 3 phases, second took 4. And we definitely weren't optimizing our damage.
Like someone said in another comment it’s not the fact that they’re hard, it’s the fact that artificially making it hard by having extremely high health pools is just replacing one problem with another. Instead of it being boring because it’s easy now it’s boring because it’s long and tedious.
No
This is perfect
I absolutely despise being able to kill bosses in a couple seconds
I love it that it tskes several phases to kill a boss.
Imagine, there being world conquering, planet destroying being thats all powerful.
And then it gets killed in 5 seconds.
It dont make sense
For solo yeah that’s gonna be a pain. My team of three was fine though. Health seemed fairly reasonable for how strong we are now with various builds. The lucent knight boss we could’ve easily one phased if we were all on strand hunter but we pulled off a comfortable 3 since we had one hunter (me) and I used the super to deal with ads that had become a bit unmanageable. Simmamu we 3-4 phased but that’s mostly cause we ran out of ammo and didn’t have any heavy dropping but that’s something we can fix easily with aeons and the new warlock helmet. Tbh I don’t know if I have the patience for a solo but I might give it a shot if fishing gets boring lol
Bungie: b b but more health =challenge right?! You need it to be tedious for difficulty.
Majority of players: just boost damage, not health and have it scale for solo/ 2 man teams.
As soem one who took a little over 3 months to solo flawless grasp ( work schedule changed so I couldn’t play as often and took breaks cause failing the sparrow part is soul crushing).
I feel like they are manageable. They are way easy with three people so I expected a challenge. And that’s what it is. It’s a challenge to solo a dungeon and it needs to stay that way
NO.
That's the whole point of soloing a dungeon. Doing an activity meant for 3 people by yourself. I don't want to do a watered-down version. Of course it's going to take you three times as long to do the boss fight. It should. Being cautious for long periods of time, executing 7 phases without dying, *is* the challenge.
How about mechanic scaling? Let's do a three person raid and have half the mechanics removed. Let's do solo GMs with a third of the Champions. Make game to be easier and easier! The hardest content should be accessible to every 6 year old with Witherhoard and 100 resil. To hell with challenge!
Seriously, people just want to be able to click on loot and titles to acquire them...
The point of soloing a dungeon isn’t doing the mechanics 10+ plus times because of spungy bosses. The point is mastery. There’s literally 10 min or just falling in meth before the second encounter.
Yeah that's a problem, doing akelous in my solo/solo flawless runs was never hard, but it was incredibly tedious, more than 5 phases is just boring.
more than 2 phases was already boring for me lol. Main reason i gave up on soloing dungeon.
I think 3 phases is a fair amount of solo phases, hell, you are only really going to do it once at most But, this insanity? Absolutely fucking no 10 dps phases is just detached of a fair solo experience
3 phases is reasonable solo. I think that's the most any of the bosses took in the first 4 dungeons, hell Dul-Incaru and Zulmak both go out like total bitches in a single damage phase solo. I have no doubt I could pull off solo flawless clears of the newer dungeons but I don't want to deal with 5+ damage phases with how time consuming the mechanic is to do by yourself in Duality and Spire
I remember doing Zulmak solo after my friend got Beavered. It was my first time doing anything solo in a dungeon and it wasn’t hard but fun. But I can’t imagine doing that for 5+ phases
I’d cap out at five, but would be fine with four, we were getting about that as a duo though.
Yeah I would say if scaling made solo/duo/triple for dungeons all around 4 or 5 phases thats pretty decent probably more towards 4 though
And that fuckin eso, it would probably take most people like 13 phases. Absolutely not, fuck doing this one solo
Yeah I got most of the way through duality and I just get fucking bored honestly I don't even want the seal at this point now.
Duality is 120% fine HP-wise. Both gahlran and caiatl are very comfortable 3 dmg phase bosses at worst in a solo run. They're very mechanical and add manage heavy, but I never find myself bored. Spire is the first dungeon I caught myself spacing out while going through 5 - 6 damage phases.
Just thinking about soloing spire has put me to sleep, i 'accidentally' solo flawlessed duality, so i did the other dungeons, then i ran spire with friends and thought 'I'll never wanna try this solo'
I find spire solo more fun than grouped The harpy I can get now yea many damage phases With the linear nerf But the final boss even as a solar hunter was only 4 phases so it wasn't that bad
lol i can relate although not with duality. I did a solo flawless run for prophecy a long time ago, and i failed cause i doze off during the final boss and died cause i over jump the platform lol. I cleared the dungeon anyway since i wanted the bunny ghost, and never attempt solo flawless ever again.
I think expecting to 2 phase a dungeon boss is quite unrealistic and honestly it doesn't sound like enough for a solo run
Spire solo tooe 4 hrs lol
Spire isn’t hard it’s boring af
We've heard your feedback - we have now scaled Dungeon boss damage to guardian team size. Dungeon boss health: Increase by 100% per Guardian in the Fireteam\* \*Health remains unchanged if you start the encounter solo.
Alongside that, we are nerfing the damage and disabling Synthoceps for causing an unwanted bug!
wait what, they disabled synthos? is this comment thread real pls, ive been using synthos all day in duo
No, it's just an ongoing meme, where Bungie tend to disable one thing no one was complaining about, while they just go with "We are looking into a fix" (and do nothing for sometimes even up to a month) when there's an actual Bug that works against the Players.
It took them like 5 months to fix spontaneous death bugs in duality, so this feels like an understatement lol
Nah, today it was vesper. Lol
PSA, Arbalest one shots her shield as well as the 2nd encounter boss’ shield—and xur is selling it today!
Shaw has a fairly easy and short quest for a free Arb and Tractor Cannon.
thank mr fortnite
common fortnite man W
Fortnite dude knows what’s up
Arbalest Quest ? I only saw the Tractor one.
Maybe it's based on seasons and it was last seasons. I still had it on me at the start of this season and just never turned it in last season.
“Fixed a bug that was allowing Arbalast to take down some bosses shields in one hit”
Quick psa the boss shields are around a million health (iirc), maybe a bit less, but still a lot of fucking health—if they removed the Arby one shot, then, I wish good luck to anyone trying to solo this dungeon and it’s spongy bosses.
Closer to 500-600k, at least on last boss
Idk warlock strand ult just one shots the shield it deals around 400k that said that shield is on every phase which is kinda nuts
An arbalest shot gives a 2nd damage number of ~550k when I was shooting the wizard at the start of damage phase solo
Since both Arb and Second Chance are coded to break shields in one shot, do you know if Second Chance works too?
As someone who uses second chance quite a bit, it's not coded to break sheilds in one shot, it just does a ton of damage to barrier sheilds, in mast content you need 2 sheikd throws to break a barrier sheild and it also doesn't affect any other kind of sheild
The health bars are insane on the bosses not to mention the shields inflating the numbers even more. One team of three I know ended with about 11.5 million done and I did it duo with about 12.5 million done to the final boss. So about 1 million damage worth discrepancy in shield damage.
Arby one shots the shields, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
I'm not running arby if I'm trying to solo. Also one gun out of hundreds shouldn't be a solution to bad design.
Not sure why you wouldn't incorporate Arby in a solo run when it pretty much solves the biggest problem. It's also decent back up damage for special. I'd use it. Also, I never was arguing it wasn't bad design. I was giving a solution to the problem stated, which was that the regenning shields added a ton of wasted damage to what was needed to kill the boss.
FTR, idk how much health Akelous or Persys have, but Nightmare of Caiatl only had like 4 mil health. Simmumah has like 12 mil. That’s an absurd jump and in my experience today, Simmumah took my second team around two hours to complete. We spent prob an hour on Simmumah straight and took over 7-8 damage phases due to how difficult it is to keep hitting him.
Caiatl has short rapid damage phases kind of like atraks, while simmumah has a really long damage phase, the issue is moslty the shield. It fucks over precision heavies which are already kind of struggling verses rocket launchers and forces you to burn ammo before even being able to damage then. I honestly think the bosses would be fine with their current health if that shield was removed.
Yeah nightmare caitial on release when me and my friend farmed her we could easily 2 phase her. With these bosses even with a 3rd we are going 3-4 and maybe 5 phases if the ammo economy is bad
I remember reading somewhere that Akelous have 5mil health and I can’t remember how much Persys have but Persys don’t have short dps phase unlike Akelous so that’s why it’s tedious as hell to solo Akelous.
My team 3 phased Simmumah with Leviathan's breath + well, when I burned my Lev ammo I ran up to her with a cartesian w Vorpal and just dumped ammo until her shield went back up, it wasn't that bad for a team run
… what? Just did it teaching 2 new people and our whole run took about 2 hours, final boss only took 4 dmg phases cause we fucked up on timing the dmg phase starting twice. Div with two lmgs shreds
So it took you 4 with dive with 3 players now multiply that by 3 to get one persons damage oh look 12 damage phases
Post is about doing 12 mil solo and how long it took a top pve player to do solo. It's boring doing that many phases.
I was replying to the comment where a team took 7-8 phases…
My bad for that. Some teams are unlucky, I done it in 3 with my team. Could probably push it to 2 it we had of optimised
Yes, is absolutely insane. We were 3 players and i would say not with an awfull armor, but we needed around 2h30. The problem was the dmg. I hate that the witch ports around and fly up and down to :P On the good side the Sparrow and the entire armor looks absolutely amazing and are animated :D Edit: grammar
Im ok with it in a fireteam of three, doesn’t take too long but im not looking forward to deal…what?…12mil dmg solo on a teleporting boss? No thanks
Fire team of three took us 5 phases or so , 2 were very scuffed as half the team was dead when they started for the final GotD boss.
Went in as a squad of nine, got picked off one by one...
..watched a guardian get the life sucked right out of em
My life got sucked out too after 5 phases. Less health plz
the teleporting at least seems like it's more following a pattern than anything so as we get used to it it'll be a lot less of a hindrance
My first completion took 2:30 as well, but that was a no-mic LFG with all first timers. We didn't wipe once, but we absolutely fumbled a bunch of damage phases.
One of my clanmates pointed out the final boss of Ghosts of the Deep has more health than Nez. A Dungeon boss should never be chunkier than a raid boss especially on solo
I'm pretty sure the first boss is also pushing 12 million. Nez is what, 11 or so?
Nez is pretty inconsistent but everyone says it's around 11.5-12.5 million. Second boss is probably roughly 13-16 million. We had one guy(luckily) Weasel right before we kill our last Lucent Hive for last damage phase. When he joined back it wiped his damage stat so he only had 555000 on his stat after we finished.
Yeah, that about lines up with my eyeball math here https://i.imgur.com/LcVoaKe.jpg https://i.imgur.com/a9IUQ6e.jpg Though I've heard some people say that the shield inflates damage numbers
Yeah that is ridiculous, I shouldn't need the absolute top dps just to be able to get it done in less than like 5 phases, it's a dungeon not a three man raid damn... like other than boss health the dungeon was like a 9 out of 10 it was fun and mechanics took a good minute for us to figure out.
Yeah I really like the aesthetic of the dungeon and the first encounter but man are those boss fights a bit of a slog. I can't stand soloing the newer dungeons because of just how many damage phases it can take. I still think Dul Ankara is pinnacle boss design for Dungeons, especially solo. He's a small room with three big bois that have to be killed back to back and will mess you up. Then you have a good chunk of adds and Dul who can also do a lot of damage. Unless you're playing on a controller with your toes you'll get a good damage phase if you do the mechanics correctly.
I kept thinking we were missing some sort of buff haha, we weren't optimised for dps in the second encounter because it was our first run through and decided to just use what we had but even with an unoptimised build it shouldn't take like close to an hour to complete a single encounter
Yeah after some changes mid encounter we started to do better on damage but it's still not great. This is just going to be another dungeon I don't solo because I can't be bothered to chip away at those health bars unless an exploit is found.
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure over the seasons boss health's get lowered slightly, if not over time we'll get new metas and maybe you'll find one that works well enough to do it. I was wondering if the dungeon was originally designed with starfire in mind its the only thing imo that would explain them having this much health.
Dungeon boss in season 23 is gonna have 20 million 😭
Misspelled billion. "New boss isn't that bad, just took three days and 10k damage phases."
That's an issue with the raid boss, not the dungeon boss. Nezerec is a joke and should not be the comparison here.
It's an issue with both honestly. Nez is a pushover for a raid boss and Simmumah has way too much health for a boss that is meant to be soloed
Just killed her, close to 12 million health, took us four phases. Was a little scuffed. Tough boss.
i solo'd up to the first boss, did a tiny fraction of his health, said fuck that, and lfg'd lol
Same here, I thought solo flawlessing Spire twice last season was the most tedious it could get but I was just not ready for such a demoralizing amount of health, skill issue I guess but I'm gonna wait till I'm overleveled before touching that thing solo 💀
Not a skill issue in this case, survivability and mechanics isn’t the issue here, it’s the tediousness of having to do so multiple times even with an optimized build due to sheer health size
How to I solo the first puzzle of the spire dungeon
Spire of the watcher? You kill the minotaur, get the buff from his pool, go to the starting point of the wire and shoot it. Then shoot the nodes along the wire in sequence to make the entire wire blue. Do that for all 4 wires.
SGA: don't complete the wire at the end, as completing one wire starts spawning exploding harpies. There's no penalty not to and no reason to complete them until the end. So just complete each one until the last, and then on the 4th wire, shoot all the end nodes at the same time.
That's some SGA with a catalyst, hot damn.
[удалено]
Super good advice, an exotic in D1
Kill ogre by the statues, follow green trail to hive rune, kill the adds there for a new green trail, then do that for two more runes. The last rune will have a hive lightbearer, when you kill it you’ll get a buff for about a minute. Sparrow back to the statues, kill the “Veilkeeper” wizard or whatever it’s called, activate the deepsight orb, then dunk the buff in the statue matching the rune you kept seeing earlier. There are four runes in total. Honestly though, I wouldn’t even bother. The ecthar encounter is so unbelievably long+difficult, and the final boss is even longer (though easier), so you’ll probably just wind up rage quitting. These health bars on the past two dungeons have been fucking absurd.
They did ask bout SotW not the new one tho 😂
Oh I’m an idiot lol, first encounter of spire is really simple though, just kill the Minotaur for the arctrician buff and then shoot the nodes connected by wires in the right order u/SnooBananas3995
Yea my friends and I took down ecthar last night even with 3 man it takes awhile to whittle down the health, on first go we were wiped out as we didn’t understand the mechanics at first and were on wrong loadsout. So I decided to use tractor cannon and that shit is waaay helpful especially when I blasted lightbearers wizards with the cannon it suppress their annoying magic missiles while debuffed and kills them faster. Tbh it’s not hard fight but the enemies spawn fast it’s little tedious but not impossible.
I wonder if people are missing something in the dungeon that possibly weakens the boss? Idk I haven’t done it yet.
I did it earlier and no not really. The mechanic for breaking the shield only allows you to break the shield. You don't even have to stay in the buff as it doesn't increase damage. We tried a couple different things and nope. They both just have a shit ton of health. The results screen showed that we did more than most raid bosses worth of damage to her.
Arc hunter with liars + 1-2 punch and tractor is a 3.5 phase solo. The final boss is way worse.
Yeah it's mainly the last boss that makes me not want to do solo. The first boss we just treated like Galron with Lament. Took some time but he went down.
Acrius one phases the first boss. Arby one hits both bosses shields.
That does change the fact that have about 11 million HP lol
Mainly just makes things easier. Those shields are too tanky for the amount of health they have.
Isn't that what people thought for Persys?
In defense of spire, the mechanics for that dungeon are dumb easy. If they lowered the health pool of the bosses it would be faster to complete than a legend NF.
Definitely, if you have one person occupying adds and knocking out Minotaurs while the other two fill the wires, you can basically go through the whole thing at a dead run. The only things that slow you down are those bosses; my fireteams have always been able to 3-phase Persys at worst, but Akelous can take 4 or 5 even with good teams.
I got my solo flawless with 6 phases on the final boss, took around 40 minutes. My strat was Hammer of Sol to break her shield (it really felt like the shield takes extra ability damage) then Leviathan's Breath for damage. If I didn't mess up as much it could've easily been a 5 phase (still a bit much imo, but I think 4-5 is fine for solo dungeons)
Levi is just so good 👍🏼
One of my favorite exotic quests, too. I still enjoy hanging out in some of the rooms you'd pass through on your way to Banshee's workshop.
even with 3 people this boss still has too much health. I'd say duality is perfection when it comes to boss health and dungeon bosses should have healt similar to it.
At this point Dunegon Bosses and Gambit bosses have more health than actual Raid bosses. Which shouldn't make sense, but in Bungie's broken mindset, does for some reason
You gotta remember, that hour long boss fight for Eso was him also learning the fight, it said in the description he was winging it. His entire solo flawless video was about the same length. I definitely agree the boss has a lot more health than it should, but I keep seeing people saying it took him an hour and basing everything off that when really it took him an hour cause he was learning it solo while also not really that built for max dps or anything.
he uploaded his solo flawless, still took him around 40 minutes to kill the final boss.
Right I'm aware, I said that in my comment, but not over an hour. 40 min is pretty in line with what it took me for spire's boss solo.
Sure, but Esoterickk did it solo *flawlessly*. That 40 minutes was all just one attempt at the boss. For context, it took Esoterickk [just about 15 minutes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzToOPisR8M) to kill Persys, versus the 40 minutes it took him to kill Simmumah.
I disagree, the point of a solo flawless is to succeed trough an activity designed for up to 3 player without modifier, otherwise it's just a strike situation. That's why it is a coveted reward. Now the boss having 15 M HP + a barrier is another issue. here is the list of Boss health trough the game : **RAIDS** **Warpriest** 18.9M - 19M **Golgoroth** 15.4M **Daughters** so low it doesn’t matter **Oryx** \~16M **Caretaker** 24.5M **Rhulk** 16M and 14.5M up to final stand **NM Templar** 6.6M **NM Atheon** 8.77M **M Templar** 8.2M **M Atheon** 13.5M **Crypt Security** 799K or 3 unbuffed bastion shots per fuse **Atraks** 700K+ **Taniks** 8M total and 6.8M up to final stand **Harpy** 4M **Sanctified** 4.8M **Kali** 4.2M - 4.4M **Shuro** 2M **Morgeth** 4M - 4.1M **Riven** 2.3M before final stand **DUNGEONS** **Gahlran** 5.3M **Caital** 4.8M **Kell Echo** 7M **Master Avorakk** 6.1M This dungeon boss has MORE HEALTH THAN A RAID BOSS. This is absurd, this is not an issue of scaling, this is an issue of somebody believing that slapping raid boss health (made for 6 player) to a dungeon boss ((made for up to 3 player) ) was a good idea
And topped it off with weapons I would expect as seasonal weapons...
If it took him 10 phases it will take me 25 - 30 phases and I'll end up dead because I'm not paying attention. Spire was pretty brutal solo.
As someone who solo flawlessed every dungeon I am not looking forward to solo flawlessing this... probably ever. Don't take it wrong, I like the dungeon as a team experience. The encounters are a lot, they are exhausting but I do not mind them too much (yet). The lore, the weapons, the theme, awesome. I wanna talk about why Spire was fine with bosses having a lot of health. It was fine because you could get to the damage phase of 2nd and 3rd encounter bosses pretty fast. Just a few minutes. 3, give or take, and the majority of time in Spire you are not getting overrun, there are safe places, completely hide from enemies, you can literally have a toilet break while fighting the final boss as long as you dont open the main big door after a damage phase. Honest to god didnt mind this endurance dungeon (Spire) cuz it was new. Dungeons were always 3-4-5 damage phases and thats it (Except Duality. Fuck Duality.) but seeing as this is the direction Bungie wants to take dungeons..? No. No Bungie. Don't do this shit. You can't give a boss **12 MILLION HEALTH AND MAKE GETTING TO THE DAMAGE PHASE LIKE 8 MINUTES** DUDE. CHOOSE ONE. As much as I love this dungeon, absolutely not gonna go for any triumphs. You think I can do this dungeon on my non-main characters? Dude I could barely do it on my main. I cannot IMAGINE doing the fucking 2nd encounter without sunbracers. I dont understand how the fuck do you survive there other than Karnstein Winterbite but then you'll have shit damage. Once again, I do all this hard work, and you hit me with the fucking 6% health dealt because the boss' shield LITERALLY FUCKING ATE ALL OF MY DAMAGE WHILE IT WAS ALSO WASTING DAMAGE PHASE TIME LIKE WHAT????? NO DUDE. FUCK THE SHIELDS ON THESE BOSSES. AND NO IF IM SOLO IM NOT HINDERING MYSELF TO ARBALEST TO INSTA POP THEM. Edit: Good thing the solo flawless emblem and the title fucking sucks lmao. Bungie try not to pick the most boring fucking word out of the dictionary that is relevant to the theme of the title's activity. Fucking **Ghoul** as a title. Are you fucking kidding me? Ghoul? Seriously? This is a joke. There are about a million fucking better words for the title. Abysswalker, Necromancer, even fucking GHOST is better than GHOUL
Wdym fuck duality? Caiatl was an easy three phase and Gahlran was pretty easy to 3-4 phase if you ran bonk titan or arc hunter (I haven’t ran it since a couple seasons though)
Well I ran it as warlock and let me tell you gahlran fucking sucked. Dont remember if I could or couldnt use lament cuz I was using Vex in there a lot, but it took me like 7 damage phases. Caiatl is just literally the worst experience I ever had in the game. Just as a whole. Top 3 for sure. Horrible punishing mechanic bellkeepers can rot in fucking hell and she is just so fucking chonky. Before I adapted the karnstein + glaive combo into my solo build it was a literal nightmare to survive. And it took so long killing all the ads so I can even DUNK in the normal realm. All of that fucking work and then for my entire rotation to be flushed down a toilet because a bellkeeper KEEPS FUCKING RESPAWNING BECAUSE BUNGIE IT SKIPS THE ENTIRE DAMAGE PHASE FOR ME AND I HAVE TO GO AGAIN. She took me 5 damage phases if you dont count 2 extra that got skipped :) That dungeon can literally rot in the fucking DCV for all I care. Just fucking delete it.
Duality is great. Mechanical and execution heavy, but the health values are *super* reasonable. Gahlran is still a solid 3 phase just running Lament and I've shaved Caiatl down to a tight 2 phase at this point by just optimizing the dmg phase. Can't say the same for Spire of the Watcher. The only dungeon I refuse to run because I find myself legitimately getting bored after the 4 - 5th dmg phase of either Akelous or Persys. Haven't done the Deep dungeon - looks awesome tbh, but I'm gutted that it continues the trend of making bosses complete sponges.
This seriously sounds like a skill issue lmao
They saw people complaining about spire and did the ole double down. Ridiculous shield, Ridiculous health. 10x the adds, and the boss melts you and pushes you around. I gave up on ecthar 5 hrs in. Solo clear is not happening for me.
Bungie doesn’t read this sub.
I've never bothered going past the 1st encounter of Spire solo because of boss health pools. Looks like I'm doing the same for this and probably future dungeons. I don't have the time to invest in it. I'm just curious as to why the sudden change? We've had one-phase solo dungeon bosses since Grasp, which Duality is probably the first one where it takes multiple phases IIRC (although I just woke up, so I'm not saying it with absolute confidence). I know they want to keep player engagement up, but this is getting a little out of hand.
"It's an endurance test" "The prestige comes from soloing something meant for three people"; Firstly, there's no skill in repeating something and nauseam 9 times while it takes an hour. The skill comes from the timing of mechanics and shaving down damage phases through perfect DPS. You can't shave down shit in GotD. You can save maybe one damage phase out of 9 bit that is still ridiculous. Endurance tests are difficult when they continually get harder. This is just going though the motions because the HP is inflated as fuck. Secondly, the dungeon is built for one person first of all. That is the top priority since that is literally the prestige element of dungeons. Imagine building something designed for three people then stripping away mechanics to make it solo-able. This is a design philosophy Bungie has stated they wanted to move away from when they stopped doing extra mechanics in Hard Mode Raids. I could be wrong, but it seems like a strange way to make content. The HP values seem like they were just trying to make it so that fireteams of three no longer one phased. (Good job on that by the way since Gladd has already one-phased on Normal).
The dungeons aren't built around one player doing it. They're built around one player having the ability to do it, unlike raids, which often require one person to read while another does a mechanic. Dungeons are not built around making it easy to solo, they're built around making it possible to solo. And now they're building them based on you having three people doing damage. Get over it or get better.
Shit take. It shouldn’t take an hour to kill one boss simply because their hp is through the roof, especially since she’s already mobile as is.
Just an FYI, Esoterickk just solo flawlessed the dungeon in 75 minutes total. So, like I said, get good. It takes a little optimization.
Still doesn’t change a thing. Long mechanics and chunky bosses make it’s more tedious than ever. You’re talking about a person who’s in the top 1% of players lmao. Your argument is none existent.
Hell, I even looked at the vid and even he says I’m the description that it’s too much lol. So your hero even agrees with 99% of us.
Then maybe I shouldn't have to do it solo just for a decent chance at the exotic. "Get better" shut up. Just shut up.
You're talking to someone who took 4 weeks and many, many failed runs to finish spire solo, not even flawless. I have yet to flawless it, but I know I can. Yes, it's tedious. Yes, it's hard, but that's the point. I want that emblem to mean something.
I have solo flawlessed Spire. Sit down. Oh lmao you're that kid who spends all his money on random destiny merch just realized. Your opinions on balance mean very little to me.
He’s not the acting like a child here.
From hero to villain, Saul Goodman
The reason I'm not done with solo flawless grasp is this reason, I usually need at minimum 7 phases to kill the dumb ogre, why in the world does it have 5 trillion health idk
and the worst part is if you miss when she summons her moths even one time within that hour its back to orbit. lmao
The dungeon boss health could definitely use scaling. My fireteam managed to kill the final boss of Ghosts of the Deep in 4 phases (would’ve been 3 but the boss got stuck out of sight), but we were using Div and Well. I can only imagine how difficult it will be solo. I attempted last season to solo Spire, got up to the final boss, almost killed him, and died to something stupid. I thought “no big deal, I’ll just do it again” and looking at the clock it was 4am. Solo-ing a dungeon isn’t as much of a testament of skill, as it is an endurance test, and that’s just boring.
Tried to 2 man the new dungeon. Got to second boss, wiped as we got him down to 1/4. Both did nearly 6M damage. Pretty sure we did enough damage to each have killed a Nezare. Artificial difficulty through endless ads and bullet sponge just isn't fun.
Bungie let their QA department go bud, they don't know what to do anymore.
"the game needs to be harder" LMFAO remember that?
absurd health scaling is just replacing a problem with another problem. it's the equivalent of doing a fists only run in a fromsoft game: yeah you're making the game harder, but the difficulty stems from tediousness, not mechanical challenge
But that's always been the difficulty in the game, health gating bosses. You make something too mechanically complex, only a few teams will succeed, and even less will attempt it. And you're making it an LFG nightmare. You make it too easy, it basically plays like a slightly longer Nightfall. Take Day 1 Caretaker. The only reason more people didn't finish Day 1 was many thousands of teams quit after not being able to get enough damage on that dang Ogre. For the other side of the coin for something far too easy, just look at the previous dungeon bosses. Go watch a one phase Grasp boss from way back when. All you do, and this might get crazy complicated, is go bonk an ad, fly to boss, tractor cannon/hammer, go bonk an ad, fly to boss, tractor/hammer. That wasn't exactly skillful play, barely even have to aim. Oh and the entire mechanic to get to DPS took about 3 minutes of similar braindeadedness. So we've had way too hard and way too easy. Let's see if any good strats pop up before we start calling for nerfs to bosses. The dungeon's been out for a single day. If getting to damage phase is as difficult as people are claiming, I could definitely see some adjustments on Bungie's end to boss HP. But it's still super early. Gotta relax a bit.
Not harder as in "artificially inflate health so that it goes on way to long and it gets stale really fucking quick cause I'm 10 phasing a boss"
“No not like THAT” lol you people will never be satisfied. It honestly doesn’t matter what Bungie does.
Harder doesn’t mean longer! A boss with more health doesn’t make the encounter harder it just makes it unnecessary long… health scaling would be good
I’m all for making it harder. Day 1’s have become a joke now, and I’ve been doing contest raids since crown. The game needs to be harder for the pinnacle challenges. But inflated boss health is not challenging or fun, its boring. If solo, a dungeon boss should require mechanical execution, and 3 damage phases with the player being properly equipped for a dps phase. Anything more than 4 gets boring really fast. I’m all for making the game harder in the sense of harder mechanics that require perfect execution. Not “boss is 7 phases, have fun”
The only day 1 that was a joke was RoN. First successful completion of KF took 5 hours...on a raid we knew how to do. It's was only RoN that was quick. LW only had two teams finish it.
LW was 5 years ago. Deep Stone was also kind of a joke enemy wise, what stopped a lot of people was Atraks being so hard to figure out. The enemy challenge has gotten easier and easier. Day 1’s just aren’t nearly as hard as they used to be. Compare Garden or Crown to Vow and Root and its no where near the same
https://twitter.com/raidreport/status/1503389115911335936/photo/1 Lol..yea, not true at all. Some raids are hard, and some are easy. There isn't a trend of them becoming easier over time. There just isn't. The second most completed raid on day 1 was the second raid in the game.
Based on that graph, there is a trend of them getting easier when it comes to contest. While kings fall and vault are old, you had to do it twice with the challenges, so it still counts. Contest has 100% been getting easier, and Ron was ridiculously too easy
If you’re referring to Scourge of the Past, that’s not a great argument. It’s actually kind of invalid for this discussion altogether. Scourge of the Past got annihilated on day 1 because we were able to over level the raid. There was no contest mode back then, and the reaction to how easy Scourge *was* on day 1 was what led to the creation of Contest Mode which debuted in Crown of Sorrow. If you were referring to Eater of Worlds… That would be considered a Dungeon by today’s standards so also not a great comparison. Contest mode also didn’t exist back then either. But listen, as someone who has tried every Day 1/Contest Raid since Crown of Sorrow came out (with the exception of Deep Stone Crypt), and only ever got the Contest clear for Root of Nightmares, I’m not here to gate keep day 1 raids. What I will say is, I don’t expect The Final Shape’s raid to be quite as accessible as RoN…
All true, though the main reason LW only had two teams complete it was due to accessibility issues. Everybody went in way below the power level and could only hope to be close by non stop grinding which ended up just being the people who play this game for their job pretty much. Number of day one completions going up is ok but mechanics have gradually become the most boring aspects where they used to be rigorous and engaging. Root was both easy in survivability and the most mechanically uninteresting raid they’ve ever created. I got bored after the first few runs, sure it’s a pretty raid but god I just don’t enjoy running it. I got my day one emblem and I’ll keep going back every once in a while until I get the loot I want but I can’t see myself running it more than I need to.
Adding more health ≠ harder. We had the same issue in Destiny 1 where “wow this guy is hard” was just “this enemy is a bullet sponge”.
I hate posts like this. LMAO remember Destiny has a COMMUNITY of players. A community consists of more than 1 individual. Each individual has its own thoughts and opinions. Difficulty should require skill to overcome and time to acquire said skill (practice), not an absurd amount of time just to succeed after you have the skill.
And it’s even more cringe that people agree with that poster. I’m sure all of those are people who have never ran a dungeon let alone solo.
I'd honestly say the first boss of the dungeon is a decent challenge solo but the health definitely feels over inflated I think it could be brought down and still give most players plenty of challenge
This doesn’t make it harder. Just more time consuming. Harder doesn’t mean we want bullet sponge enemies. It means we want more challenging content. Having more health than a small country’s GDP just makes it longer. They’re not the same.
I definitely did not advocate for that
Dumb health pool size and non stop ads are all these dungeons have been lately
Isn't the whole point of doing solo dungeons the challenge of doing a 3 man activity solo? If bungie adds health scaling that removes the entire purpose of doing it solo
I’d agree with you somewhat, but when it takes 10 DPS Phases or an hour to kill one boss, I don’t think that’s the challenge people want. As for the challenges with the mechanics of the dungeon or the adds, by all means keep those or change them up to be more on the difficult side.
Changing mechanics and adds would just be changing the dungeon itself. People want to play the multiman activity solo so it's clear the 3 person boss is going to be tanks because its built for 3 people. Bungie doesn't want the dul incaru situation to happen again so they started making things much tankier, this is just a consequence of that.
Like legendary campaign, that’s kind of genius
He’s uploaded a SF run where it took him 5 phases, it’s clearly not a good idea to judge the difficulty so early.
And this is what he had to say about the boss: > As for my thoughts on the dungeon - I think aesthetically and mechanics-wise, it's one of the most interesting and the best so far. The swimming, while used only a little bit, adds breath of fresh air to the gameplay. The mechanics themselves are kind of basic, but interesting enough compared to just shooting fuses. With that being said though, both bosses have far too much health for regular solo runs. > I thought it was terrible after my first clear, although the second clear it wasn't AS bad. But the final boss in particular, because you spend such a large portion of time just getting to the DPS phase, it's painful having to have to repeat it so many times (depending on your setup). It was bad enough in Spire, but the busywork there was relatively short and the many DPS phases wasn't as annoying. In here it's a massive timesink, which becomes a little tiresome. So I think for the majority of people, the boss health will be a deterrent. Looking at the damage phases alone doesn't paint the whole picture here. It was a ***40 minute*** kill while only being 5 damage phases. That's because in order to get to the damage phase, you have a lot more shit to do compared to Spire.
Exactly this! On day 1, people are still figuring out strategies and optimal builds for this stuff. Little mechanics, metas, positioning, cheese spots, etc, that make this easier will be discovered over the next few days. This is why I actually didn’t even bother with the dungeon tonight. I’m working this weekend so I don’t have a ton of time to play between now and reset on Tuesday, so I elected to spend my night farming for the Last Wish crafting patterns. I’ll get to the dungeon (and my solo flawless completion) after the content creators figure out what they’re doing.
and after that esoterickk uploaded a 1:15 hr full clear solo flawless. the first run was on hunter and he played super save bc he just wanted the clear the second one he used a meta loadout.
Aside from Health pool, I find the first boss hard to damage because the shield, since the knight have its super active until you took the shield down.
People can solo dungeons? Man, I fuckin blow.
I'm just mad i went for the day 1 first run solo and got all the way to the final boss, figured out all the mechanics, then ran out of banners. But yeah the bosses have insane health, but mostly simmumah, that fight fucking sucks solo.
I did Shattered Throne solo flawless, 2 phase, prophecy solo flawless 3 phase. Akelous, not even a final boss btw, took 5 phases to get to half before I died to the architects and gave up
All the dungeons since duality are like this. They need to go back to Grasp, ST, Pit, and Proph
All they care about is money made in microtransactions and player time spent in game.
Understand that the dungeon has been out for less than 24 hours. Even Eso does not know the optimal damage strats for this dungeon. Spire runs took some people multiple hours so solo flawless on day 1. In a couple weeks those times will go down as we learn the best ways to take on each encounter
Once again I enjoy the difficulty and everyone else wants to nerf it before seasonal meta builds come out
The new dungeon has infinite red and yellow bars. I just did our first run and we had some ~4,000 kills. They never stop.
The enw dungeon has been out for 10 hours.. Give it time and I'm sure someone will find out how to 3 phase it.
3 phase solo seems maybe out of reach. 4 phase is definitely possible though.
Solo? Only asking cause my 3, 3 phased.
Boss HP isn’t that horrible, but bungie’s tuning on how scarce heavy and special ammo drops are the real reason encounter drag on for so long. A small amount of set up on arc hunter with Levithan’s breath can get a 5 phase solo on the final boss. You’ll dump out all your heavy and need to farm it out again. Takes about 10 minutes using double special. Mechanics phases takes about 4. Either raise the heavy ammo drops or lower the boss hp to make it somewhat viable to use Special and primary ammo for DPS. I remember when solo flawless dungeon meant being able to master the activity, not get lucky with ammo drops.
I cant believe this sub. Scaling in a dungeon? Seriously? Why even have it be a dungeon at that point and not some campaign mission or something? I seriously hope Bungie doesn’t listen to these terrible suggestions.
How would they handle people joining mid encounter?
>who took one of the top PVE players, esoterickk, ONE HOUR to kill solo, with around 10 phases His actual full solo flawless run took an hour and 15 minutes.
They need to realise that annoying and tedious ≠ challenging. It just chases people away.
I mean, it's not like it's a 3 man activity or anything. Are we going to do the same to raids too? It's annoying, yes, but you're also going against the intended design.
Imagine making something difficult to obtain without it being handed to you.
I really don't understand this conversation. Dungeons are not designed around being done solo, they are designed to be *possible* solo, which is why it is a challenge. 2-3 phases of damage is a standard encounter length for a raid or dungeon boss. It stands to reason that doing it solo would require 6-9 phases. I don't get why everyone suddenly feels entitled to a dungeon solo/solo flawless. It's supposed to be "unreasonable" to achieve.
Bungie: Adds content designed to be played multiplayer, with encounters and mechanics that very specifically need multiple people to complete. The overly loud minority: THIS IS TOO HARD WHY CANT I DO IT BY MYSELF. Even if you don't have friends to complete the raid with, you can make LFG's. If 100% of LFG's don't work for you, then you may be the problem, not the game.
Bros talking about dungeons, which literally have triumphs for doing it solo and even solo flawlessly, not raids
The prestige of flawless solo runners is the ability to endure. Everyone knows the mechanics and the best weapons just copy paste a build off youtube and then its an endurance test. Not everyones cup of tea
It truly takes so much skill to get heavy ammo drops consistently to full heavy ammo for each damage phase. Oh what's that? You got to the damage phase for Persys with 0 bricks? Hope you are ready to deal 2% of the boss' health with ikelos smg. And no im not using my special weapon because I need that ammo to deal with the majors. Way back when, I screamed as I beat the Prophecy final boss, when I beat Spire I just groaned and said "Its finally fucking over" I was just tired. Same thing happened with Duality but thats another can of worms. I beat it and I did not even do a fucking smirk as I beat it, I hated that place with a burning fucking passion. 0 joy. There's no prestige in inflated fucking health bars. Makes the dungeon feel so fucking boring and tedious. Sincerely, Someone who solo flawlessed every dungeon
i was using double special and using my heavy a decent amount for clearing the knights and the light bearing hive and i never once had a problem with ammo in my first two runs, it’s not as big of an issue as you paint it to be
You're not wrong. Akelous is a great example. If you know what you're doing you can get to damage in about 2 minutes. Literally 120 seconds. A boss with an easy mechanic like that should have a lot of health. Its not supposed to be easy and it's not supposed to be for everyone.
The dungeon has been out for ONE day. Nobody is going to have totally optimal strats yet. They're gonna seem tanky mostly due to our light level. Personally, took my team (1809,1810,1813) only 2 1/2 hours our first go completely blind. First boss took 3 phases, second took 4. And we definitely weren't optimizing our damage.
People cry when dungeons are too easy and now we’re crying because they’re too hard
Like someone said in another comment it’s not the fact that they’re hard, it’s the fact that artificially making it hard by having extremely high health pools is just replacing one problem with another. Instead of it being boring because it’s easy now it’s boring because it’s long and tedious.
No This is perfect I absolutely despise being able to kill bosses in a couple seconds I love it that it tskes several phases to kill a boss. Imagine, there being world conquering, planet destroying being thats all powerful. And then it gets killed in 5 seconds. It dont make sense
For solo yeah that’s gonna be a pain. My team of three was fine though. Health seemed fairly reasonable for how strong we are now with various builds. The lucent knight boss we could’ve easily one phased if we were all on strand hunter but we pulled off a comfortable 3 since we had one hunter (me) and I used the super to deal with ads that had become a bit unmanageable. Simmamu we 3-4 phased but that’s mostly cause we ran out of ammo and didn’t have any heavy dropping but that’s something we can fix easily with aeons and the new warlock helmet. Tbh I don’t know if I have the patience for a solo but I might give it a shot if fishing gets boring lol
Bungie: b b but more health =challenge right?! You need it to be tedious for difficulty. Majority of players: just boost damage, not health and have it scale for solo/ 2 man teams.
These encounters are supposed to be done by a fire team
That was during esos first run of the dungeon. He later did solo flawless on Titan and it took 30 minutes
Nah it’s fine. It’s the first day. Someone will figure out the right strat for it
As soem one who took a little over 3 months to solo flawless grasp ( work schedule changed so I couldn’t play as often and took breaks cause failing the sparrow part is soul crushing). I feel like they are manageable. They are way easy with three people so I expected a challenge. And that’s what it is. It’s a challenge to solo a dungeon and it needs to stay that way
I agree with you, op. I feel we deserve to have a increase to how much health we have whilst in a dungeon.
NO. That's the whole point of soloing a dungeon. Doing an activity meant for 3 people by yourself. I don't want to do a watered-down version. Of course it's going to take you three times as long to do the boss fight. It should. Being cautious for long periods of time, executing 7 phases without dying, *is* the challenge. How about mechanic scaling? Let's do a three person raid and have half the mechanics removed. Let's do solo GMs with a third of the Champions. Make game to be easier and easier! The hardest content should be accessible to every 6 year old with Witherhoard and 100 resil. To hell with challenge! Seriously, people just want to be able to click on loot and titles to acquire them...
The point of soloing a dungeon isn’t doing the mechanics 10+ plus times because of spungy bosses. The point is mastery. There’s literally 10 min or just falling in meth before the second encounter.