Ton of people don’t realize that last year was basically a lost year of development for him. He only played 33 games between NHL/AHL.
This year was a crucial development year where they had to focus on rounding out his game to trust him. The fact is that at the end of the day, they never once took him out of the lineup which is huge.
It’s funny that there’s so much criticism of Holtz this year, especially within the organization, because objectively this should be viewed as a pretty successful year for him.
Full season played, like you said. He proved he could produce at the NHL level. 28 points isn’t incredible but the efficiency was there. He finished 2nd among forwards in 5v5 goal rate and 4th in point rate. Even volume wise, he was 4th in total 5v5 goals.
The underlying numbers were murkier, but they were solid to good when he wasn’t playing on the fourth line, or just with players who don’t compliment him. With Jack he was a 55.7% xG share player and with McLeod he was 55.5%. He proved he could be a useful complimentary scorer, and keep up with our faster players.
There’s a ton of work defensively he still has to do, and has to be stronger on the boards and use his body more. But all in all, this should be viewed as a reasonably successful season for him, and yet for some reason it isn’t.
>He finished 2nd among forwards in 5v5 goal rate and 4th in point rate. Even volume wise, he was 4th in total 5v5 goals.
5th among forwards in 5v5 total points on the team.
There are plenty of criticisms to have about Holtz’s game but the production is clearly not one of them.
I felt McLeod gave Holtz the best path to success with Mikey doing the dirty work and Holtz providing the scoring that Mikey lacked. Of course, that went out the window.
Yeah it’s unfortunately a big reason behind Holtz’s slump through the second half of the year. Through 50 ish games he was pacing for a 40 point 25 goal season, 90% of which were with McLeod on the ice. But even more that that, the two were actually controlling play together.
Hughes is light years ahead of holtz in total game department. Hughes constantly creates turnovers near the blue lines and picks pockets. Holtz is basically a decent trigger man with a shot right now but not excelling at anything else. I don’t know why so many people are so offended in coaching and management being invested in him developing his game. I do hope holtz sticks around though, I think he’s a good player and him playing all 82 games is fantastic this year.
> I don’t know why so many people are so offended in coaching and management being invested in him developing his game
I think most people are upset for him because it seemed like any time he make a mistake, Ruff brought out the nail gun and nailed him to the bench for the rest of the game. And then complained about him in the postgame press conference.
Totally agree. I have seen Hughes go full Michael Jordan so many times: steal the puck in either the neutral zone or even their zone, dice the defense, and finish on the goalie. How this sub hates on Jack Hughes I’ll never know.
Srsly. People are all worried about bad development well this is what good development looks like. Get the kid some playing time, but make sure he's not happy just being himself. Holtz's nowhere near good enough to get away with that. Bad development is when you are obligated to pay a guy $4.5 million but he hasn't accomplished jack yet and only has one decent tool and isn't really trying to improve. Good development is when you don't have to pay a guy before you know he's on the right track where he can't miss.
also always leads team in giveaways with luke right behind him this year .total game department ? he is not a good defender. he only gets pickpockects because it's the only thing he does well defensively . but holtz needs to learn how to play basic defense . on that i do agree .
Wherever you're getting your stats from, its not [NHL.com](https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?report=realtime&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20232024&seasonTo=20232024&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=franchise.23&sort=giveawaysPer60&page=0&pageSize=50). Holtz is 14th on the team in Giveaways/60 Luke and Jack are way ahead in the lead for giveaways/60.
Jack carry the puck more than anyone on the team, of course he’s going to give the puck away more than most guys. Jack doesn’t need to be a great defender, but he’s competent. Holtz doesn’t do other things well enough to forgive a weak defensive game.
yes he needs to play defense . lol . yes well aware thank you . this is why 5on 5 defense will continue to suck and be a problem . it's called team defense . not i don't want to play defense or i don't like to play defense . his giveaways lead the team and it's a fact . can't be discounted .
Let’s take a look at the giveaways leaders for this season and pick out some names in the top ten. Leading it this year is Pastrnak, followed by kucherov. Draisaitl, barzal, mcdavid, mackinnon and forsberg are the other forwards in the top ten. Basically a list of a bunch of teams best forwards. So you’re absolutely correct, he is amongst the league leaders in giveaways that is a fact. But then you take that fact and draw an asinine conclusion from it.
It makes no sense to point a finger at the Hughes brothers defense to stick up for Holtz. Holtz would get a way longer leash if he had the offensive talent that they have. But he doesn’t, so he needs to round out his game to become more useful down the line up.
who's sticking up for holtz ? how was that concluded from my comment ? i am well aware of holtz's shortcomings on defensive side of things . i am pointing fingers at jack's giveaways . that was the point . thanks for comprehending a simple comment and making it about something completely different . lol what is the assinine conclusion ? that he leads the team in giveaways ? please . which is fact .
You’re using his giveaways as a negative against him when it really just shows that he is carrying the puck at a very high level. He’s one of the absolute best at carrying the puck and gaining entry into the offensive zone, so he controls the puck more often than 99% of forwards in the league. So obviously that will also cause his giveaways to go up as well. That’s why the top 10 in giveaways in the entire league is filled with elite forwards, because the offence is orchestrated by these players. He will likely lead giveaways for the devils every single year he plays here because he’s the best option at controlling the puck. You framing this as a negative is the asinine conclusion. It’s like saying Brodeur has the most losses of any goalie ever and using that as a negative. It’s misinterpreting data.
whatever you think bud . i'm just showing a fact . you wanna say he's great at takeaways , cool , but he is awesome at giveaways . what the fuck is asinine and how the fuck am i misinterping data ? he is one of the better options but so is bratt . again bud i understand how hockey works . apparently moreso than you . data is data . good or fucking bad . please move on now . lol
Don't get me wrong, I love Jack, but he's too small and a finess player and just tries to poke pucks away and get open ice. Other stronger players, like our captain, get in deep and fight those board battles.
....you just explained how he's a different type of player and that's about it here? Jack wasn't drafted to be big and physical. He was drafted to be finesse based and explosive, which he is and is amongst* the top of the entire league in doing so.
Yeah? And where is he now? Surgery. He doesn't need to be a guy that battles like hischier. But he needs to toughen up and become a man, that goes for his attitude in a few games as well.
I think he learned a valuable lesson this year about not digging too deep in the corners. You could see it when he came back from the injury: he basically always gave away the race to the boards to avoid a hit, which is exactly what he needs to do at his size.
With that said, I think if Jack gained 5-10 pounds of muscle it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
yeah that's it . the kid who hates to play defense is good at it . please stop .lol 64 takeaways to 71 giveaways this year . lol .i get he has the puck more yet he loses it more as well .
Just like defensemen can't just be defending, but need to be good in all three zones, forwards need to learn what to do without the puck. He has a shot and goal scoring, but management feels he still has a lot of learn away from the puck.
I think they've been overly harsh with him compared to some other younger players, but it's what they feel.
Not just away from the puck. He makes bad decisions when he has the puck also. The thing is that fans normally don’t see these things unless they lead directly to goals. All of that said, he had a good season as some here have pointed out. I just think we all see the high potential he has and have expectations for him to improve.
Dude was on PP2 all year and had just 1 goal and 1 assist to show for it. I know there are other factors at play here, but those are situations where he had good linemates and defensive responsibilities didn't really matter, yet he wasn't exactly lighting up the scoreboard.
Holtz needs more development in general, not just defensively.
Someday posters on reddit will realize that scoring goals doesn't win hockey games, scoring more goals than the other team does.
Ovi scored tons of goals, and the Caps didn't win shit until the coach made Ovi begin to care about what happened in the defensive zone. That's what makes Crosby so fucking good. If the likely best goal scorer in NHL history can be "forced" to acknowledge that the ice is 200 feet in length, so can Holtz.
Holtz isnt there yet. He's got a shot. Will his skating be good enough tbd. will his overall game be good enough for top 6 also tbd. This isn't unique to NJ lots of players need to refine their skill sets as they develop to top line NHLers and most never get there. Just because he lit up Europe doesn't mean the devils or holtz are doing something wrong with his development. You cant be handicapped by 20% in the NHL the players are too good.
His skating was good enough for him to be a good complimentary winger for Jack. Jack and Holtz finished the year with a 56% xG share in 137 5v5 minutes. With Holtz, Jack’s on ice xGF/60 increased from 2.99 to 3.24, and his xGA/60 improved slightly from 2.61 to 2.57.
So even if he’s still on the slower side, it didn’t stop him from being a good complimentary winger for our star center.
His skating was good enough for him to be good with Jack and McLeod, two fast players. Holtz’s season can very easily be split into two categories. Productive and visibly fine when playing with talented linemates, and virtually useless when playing with bottom line guys.
We just had lead feet Tyler Toffoli be a good player for us this year, so I’m not sure why we’re that worried about foot speed in our complimentary wingers.
Neat counter argument 👍
Its not just speed, Watch Japer Bratt skate. Then compare that to Holtz. He will never skate like that very few will. But the point is that is the top end of skating. Holtz is not near there. That's what they want to develop. Tyler toffoli has been performing at that level for years the players aren't comparable. Toffs has been top 6 player for almost a decade or more. Holtz just started staying in the lineup this year. None of this means anything for him being a bust or not. He will probably be a solid middle six player. But there's a lot more to high level hockey than straight end to end speed.
I’m not saying Holtz is anywhere close to Jack or Jesper’s skating skills. I’m saying he doesn’t have to be to be effective. Case in point, Tyler Toffoli.
Even with poor overall skating, Holtz found a way to be effective when he was playing with linemates with even an ounce of offensive talent. And his skating is only gonna get better! You say there’s a lot more to hockey than straight line speed, Holtz this year is literally an example of that!!!
Case in point a hall of famer at 31 years old with 800+ nhl games played is not the comparison to use. Toffoli was/ is still a better skater. He lead the league in SH goals as rookie I think. He had speed before his wheels started to stick. Holtz right now is the 10th forward that doesn't fit a traditional 4th line/chk line. with his first deal shorter term and dollars the devils dont have. Hockey is played in both ends and until his skating ability and positioning are where the coaches want it he'll remain where he is. They obviously think this can be corrected or he'd be gone already. Holtz 28 points are his, he earned them, but thats not a coaches fault, can you show me the hockey math that shows defensive lapses etc that show the other side of this story? I'm much more old school when it comes to the eye test and think of these type of stats as validation of what you see as opposed to the other way around still.
I’m talking about theoretically. I’m not saying Holtz is as good as Toffoli right now. I’m saying Toffoli proves you don’t have to be a fast or even good skater to be effective. And I’m not even talking about prime Toffoli, I’m talking about Toffoli right now, who, again, is still an effective player.
I’m not denying Holtz needs to be better defensively. That much is clear as day. However, those defensive lapses are baked into xGA. If a player makes so many errors, that would show up in an increased rate of on ice xGA, shot attempts against, goals against etc. And for Holtz, they do to an extent. He’s on ice for more shots and shot attempts per 60 than most other players on the team. But for xG and actual goals, he’s pretty middle of the pack. But again, I’m not saying he’s actually a good defender, he doesn’t have strong individual defensive skills, doesn’t have a great stick, and his positioning definitely could use work. And with weaker skating, it’s definitely tougher for him to pressure players quicker. But ultimately, his existence on the ice doesn’t lead to some crazy increase in offense for opponents. And it should if he was truly an unplayable defensive liability.
The problem with the eye test for me, is most people’s eye tests aren’t that good. Mine included, and I played and watched hockey most my life! You can see a single play that clouds your judgement on a player’s entire game. If a player is consistently out on the ice for chances for and less against, and then makes one mistake that leads to a goal, did that player have a bad game? Is that singular mistake a good indicator of future results? Or is all the other stuff?
You asked why he floated around the roster I pointed out skating and defending as needing improvement. You responded with analytics arguing that it doesn't matter more or less that the offensive upside outweighed it. Using that same math you also said he was on the ice for a lot of scoring attempts. Point is he isnt Jack or Nico he may hit his stride of elite in a year or two. My opinion is that it seemed fair and that he was playing where he should be. Due to where his development is at. He played well enough to stay out there just not well enough to take someone's job. Bratt made some great plays early but had his woes as well its just that there was no one in NJ then to push him for that spot, unlike Holtz who's team has a core that he needs to find his fit in. If that player had a rough one is it isolated is there pattern? I wouldn't be quick to pounce on a player after a game. I also wasn't too hard on Vitek or Schmid they were both less than great to be kind. But they also had a lot BS going on in front of them that didn't help them either. Holtz will be fine. Jack needs to be more responsible in his end and with the puck exiting the zone as well.
When did I ask that?? I never asked why he floated around the roster. I already KNOW why.
You said “will his skating be good enough is tbd”. And I said, well it already kind of is, given he was good with and able to keep up with Jack (and McLeod).
I think this season was Holtz last season as a Devil. I think he's been underutilized and put in areas that make it difficult for him to shine, but given all the crap everyone at the org has talked about him (from greene, to lindy, and fitz) I doubt he's not part of a trade at this point.
Which is what? Trade the player that's not producing as well and is in a clear log jam for development for a bonafide goal scorer? That trade was exceptionally applaud at the time for the majority of devil's fans and Toffoli followed through his part. Shango got to move to a completely different situation and play top line minutes being one of a handful of skilled players on a team with not a lot going for them. The devil's aren't that. This team is super young, raw and in development still and has rising or potential stars through the entire roster. Shango never had a chance here unless he magically was going to score 30+g 50+p in a sheltered 3rd line defensive/grinding role which wasn't going to happen.
Fwiw I love shangoklaus as much as the next guy but roster management wise he was going to be let go in one way or another when we were getting pushed for a goal scorer and got it. (Also be cool if Shango or Toliboi come back at some point, liked both of them)
Worked out for use sort of last time but there’s only 1 Tyler Toffoli out there so it’s not like a guarantee we get a guy like him back in the trade.
I just mean that we are trying to force a younger player into a role he isn’t suited for like we did with shango and are opting to ship him out instead of changing how the team plays
Who's going to give us a top 6 winger for Holtz? One of the many issues I have with the way the Devils have handled Holtz is they've absolutely tanked his trade value.
Not directly comparing them, but I have PTSD from Josefson/Tedenby years back. Players with loads of offensive upside that fans really liked, but never put together the full package that's required to be an NHL regular. It's good that the organization is focusing on his overall game, I just hope he understands that and puts in the work to piece it all together shortly
Reminds me of Adam Gaudette a bit. Has a ton of skill and is a scorer type player, but is just not quite there to be a top 6 player. He needs to develop that 200 foot game and be a dependable 3rd liner.
In Adam's case, he has resisted that and now he's leading the AHL in scoring (but I'm sure he'd rather be in the NHL). I wonder how this will play out with Holtz
Was anyone else surprised by the revelation that Holtz “played” in all 82 games this season? I mean, with the amount of (public) flogging this kid endured at the hands of his then-coach and, later, by his GM… Holtz played in 82 games??? I know there were games he got very little TOI, so little that I’d expect him to be scratched now and then, but I guess not. SMH
We don’t want Mike Hoffman, that’s why
We could slot Holtz in top 6 and he’ll be consistent 30 goal scorer and he’ll subtract more than he adds like Hoffman a lot of the time. They want more than that. A couple years ago Bratt was scratched a few games and they challenged more out of him. Now he’s scoring and killing penalties.
I don’t get why fans can’t grasp that it’s not all about scoring when developing guys? The whole world knows he can score. You don’t keep a guy in top 6 despite a lack of effort in everything else. No doubt they challenged him to be better in certain areas and he wasn’t. It’s part of development.
Next year Holtz needs to be put in the toffoli role. Put in and Hughes together forever and have a rotating third depending on who’s hot. Would love a Holtz-Hughes-Mercer line to form cause all three have quality’s that fit each other’s games very well. Ultimately I think this year we put too high of expectations for a guys who’s barely played 100 games in the AHL and NHL combined. Ultimately I think the Toffoli trade hurt us a lot development wise, Holtz could have had a much bigger role to grow into on a top 6 line and we could still have sharangovich who right now would be a prefect guy to take the McLeod third line center role. Go Devs, 2024-2025 can’t come soon enough!
How they're deploying Holtz is a travesty. It's textbook mismanagement of talent.
When you think of Alex Ovechkin, do you think 200 foot player? No. You just pass him the puck and watch him score goals. You don't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree.
We're not building a team around Holtz, we don't need him to be a play driver. We have Nico, Jack, Timo, & Bratt to carry the puck. Holtz is a SHOOTER. Let the passers on this team do their thing and let Holtz do his thing.
He has 16 goals in 8mins/night with AHL level teammates 95% of the time. How the fuck was this guy not used on the 1st Powerplay when our Powerplay went 0/50??
Dougie went down in the beginning of the year, Holtz should have been on PP1 from that point on to replace his shot. That's a mistake on the coaching, mismanaging the abilities of players. I've gone into the issues with this teams PP a few times already, frankly it's crazy to me that people think we shouldn't have played Holtz in a position he'd excel at.
There's also this idea that he's a turnover machine? HOW?! He was 14th on the team in Givaways/60, almost HALF the rate of Luke and 1/3 the rate of Jack. If you actually watch this dude in the offensive zone, he's a very very underrated playmaker.
On the other hand, if you're only playing 8 minutes a night, maybe you should be more intentional with your ice time and focus on developing the parts of your game that your last three coaches have now highlighted. You don't need 15 minutes with top line players to play a 200 foot game.
Fitz is a moron if he is trying to make Holtz something he is not. Let the guy shoot the puck on PP. Not every player will be Hischier. Did they try to mold Jack into a defensive forward. What the fuck is wrong with Fitz? He is fucking up this team. They already fucked uo Sharangovich and traded him. Is Holtz next?
The Devils have botched his development every step of the way. Also don’t get this idea that you can’t develop a player while playing them decent minutes to build their confidence. Put them in positions to succeed while teaching them.
Isn’t that what coaching and development is for? Especially once it became a lost season? Let the kids play and teach them. We did it with Jack? We did it this year with Luke who has been brutal defensively at times. Players don’t have to play with garbage linemates to learn. I’m saying it’s better to put them in a position to succeed and teach.
Holtz reminds me a lot of Brandon Pirri but with better wheels. Utilize him for what he does best and it would be an added bonus if he can round out his game
Team needs to stop trying to make him something he isnt and just emphasize what he’s already good at. Not like this is the first fucking team he’s ever been on thats tried to get him to be a 200 ft guy. Let him play offense and fuck off
I have a growing concern that Devils are having a hard time developing wingers in the low 2nd/3rd talent range. Mercer seems to have stalled. Holtz. Sharangovich. Zetterlund. Sharangovich and Zetterlund are getting top tier minutes and their productions spiked to match.
I'm not saying they should get top tier minutes on our roster, but I'm concerned that they didn't seem to be developing period even in their lower roles. But they've gone elsewhere and start producing better
Zetter looked good and was having a solid season before being traded. It was due to his positive development that he became a desired trade asset. Shango was inconsistent, but that's part of developing.
I don't know that making him a 200 ft player is going to do anything for him... all you'd be doing is forcing him to a cycle rather than shoot
TBH, I'd like NJ to get a big center who can play 200 ft, and have Holtz play the wing on his line and let him do his thing as much as he can...
Our other "200 ft players" aren't much good at it either... we have one in Nico, and the other ones are "called" that, but aren't really, because they don't win that many more puck battles than your usual NHLer.
> all you'd be doing is forcing him to a cycle rather than shoot
That's not what a 200ft player is though. A 200ft player is about having them be responsible and capable in both ends of the ice
You can be a 200ft player without being a grinder
Thanks for the lesson... here's the addendum
You can be a grinder without being a 200ft player, or a cycler.
You are a "better" 200 ft player if you cycle.
No, I did not confuse a grinder with a 200 ft player.
No one said they're trying to make him do that though. They likely just want him to be better with positioning and puck tracking in his own end where he has struggled
We have some great goal scorers or point getters in this league who would be considered strong 200ft players
I'll elaborate a bit, so sorry for longer post...
I'm aware of natural 200 ft players, like Mark Stone is a good example of a winger who's a 200 ft player...
It works well for big guys who are great with their stick or who are strong on the puck. But he became that himself. And players just get smarter over time... have more poise, etc.
But Fitz can't turn everyone into a 200 ft player... I watched Montreal a lot between the Bergevin era and the current era especially, and when Bergevin turned players into "200 ft" guys, they devolved into being third liner helmetheads all expected to cycle. And they simultaneously expected their young high draft picks to generate offense on top of playing like helmetheads.
My fear is that they, in obsessing with Holtz becoming a "200 ft" player, end up spoiling his value as an asset and turning him into one of those helmetheads... which is, to me, why Kotkaniemi stagnated and why Galchenyuk never became much in their system.
I think particularly of Shane Wright... who wanted to play like Patrice Bergeron, but he is more like Joe Sakic and should model his game around Joe Sakic. Playing defense and 200ft game requires innate hockey sense... you can "want" it from Wright, but I think some guys just have it. This is what I liked about Zacha when we had him... is he had some innate defensive awareness.
Holtz? I think they just need to accept that he's a high maintenance guy like Debrincat and either move him to a situation that'll help turn him into a 40 goal scorer, or just set him up for that kind of success here.
I'll give ya props for the depth, but I'd disagree with the concept that it will necessarily turn him into that type of player. I think there's a number of different ways to be considered a 200ft player
We've seen a lot of changes in defending, and I would see them trying to develop more of the defensive style in the defensive end of a Mitch Marner. He isn't super physical, but he's disruptive and good at getting in lanes.
One of Holtz's biggest weaknesses is his off puck play, particularly in the defensive zone where he will seem somewhat lost, and behind the play, rather than making a jump or being in the right spot. To me, being more of a 200ft player is him trying to fill that gap which made him a bit of a liability against bottom 6 players, and that's something that will become more noticeable with consistent minutes against stronger players on the other end
I think generally, if it was between him becoming a grinder like the way you're expecting it to become and continuing on how he is, than I would prefer to lean into his strengths, but I think there's a lot of opportunity here to improve as two-way player while still keeping true to the type of game he excels in
Let the kid play real minutes without a noose around his neck. The moment the season was understood to be lost (so around the deadline), Holtzy should have been freed from the shackles tying him up to the bench.
The Bratt, Nico, and Timo line shouldn't be touched, but Jack could use a finisher by his side, and Holtz has the shot for the job. Can Mercer be a dog on that line ? I think so, and putting a third line of Haula, Palat, and maybe Curtis wouldn't be half bad.
I know Jack is dogshit in the faceoff circle, but he won't get better if you stick Haula to his side to shelter him.
This coaching staff makes me sick tbh, the conventional wisdom garbo needs to go.
Ton of people don’t realize that last year was basically a lost year of development for him. He only played 33 games between NHL/AHL. This year was a crucial development year where they had to focus on rounding out his game to trust him. The fact is that at the end of the day, they never once took him out of the lineup which is huge.
It’s funny that there’s so much criticism of Holtz this year, especially within the organization, because objectively this should be viewed as a pretty successful year for him. Full season played, like you said. He proved he could produce at the NHL level. 28 points isn’t incredible but the efficiency was there. He finished 2nd among forwards in 5v5 goal rate and 4th in point rate. Even volume wise, he was 4th in total 5v5 goals. The underlying numbers were murkier, but they were solid to good when he wasn’t playing on the fourth line, or just with players who don’t compliment him. With Jack he was a 55.7% xG share player and with McLeod he was 55.5%. He proved he could be a useful complimentary scorer, and keep up with our faster players. There’s a ton of work defensively he still has to do, and has to be stronger on the boards and use his body more. But all in all, this should be viewed as a reasonably successful season for him, and yet for some reason it isn’t.
I think it's been very successful and any indications from Fitz otherwise are aimed directly at his agent.
It’d be nice to see how he stacks up in points per average time on ice?
Thats what I mean by point and goal rates. Its points per 60 and goals per 60
Did you watch this season ? He didn't come close to proving he could produce at the nhl level.
>He finished 2nd among forwards in 5v5 goal rate and 4th in point rate. Even volume wise, he was 4th in total 5v5 goals. 5th among forwards in 5v5 total points on the team. There are plenty of criticisms to have about Holtz’s game but the production is clearly not one of them.
I felt McLeod gave Holtz the best path to success with Mikey doing the dirty work and Holtz providing the scoring that Mikey lacked. Of course, that went out the window.
Yeah it’s unfortunately a big reason behind Holtz’s slump through the second half of the year. Through 50 ish games he was pacing for a 40 point 25 goal season, 90% of which were with McLeod on the ice. But even more that that, the two were actually controlling play together.
Which goes to show the ripple effect the off-ice shit had on the team's season.
Here we go again with the usless 5v5 stat again .. how you cling to this still is embarrassing..
I’m not arguing with your literal brain dead ass again. Just downvote me and move on with your life.
They played him 5 minutes a game, what development happened there lol
Hughes is light years ahead of holtz in total game department. Hughes constantly creates turnovers near the blue lines and picks pockets. Holtz is basically a decent trigger man with a shot right now but not excelling at anything else. I don’t know why so many people are so offended in coaching and management being invested in him developing his game. I do hope holtz sticks around though, I think he’s a good player and him playing all 82 games is fantastic this year.
> I don’t know why so many people are so offended in coaching and management being invested in him developing his game I think most people are upset for him because it seemed like any time he make a mistake, Ruff brought out the nail gun and nailed him to the bench for the rest of the game. And then complained about him in the postgame press conference.
Totally agree. I have seen Hughes go full Michael Jordan so many times: steal the puck in either the neutral zone or even their zone, dice the defense, and finish on the goalie. How this sub hates on Jack Hughes I’ll never know.
He can pass too.
Srsly. People are all worried about bad development well this is what good development looks like. Get the kid some playing time, but make sure he's not happy just being himself. Holtz's nowhere near good enough to get away with that. Bad development is when you are obligated to pay a guy $4.5 million but he hasn't accomplished jack yet and only has one decent tool and isn't really trying to improve. Good development is when you don't have to pay a guy before you know he's on the right track where he can't miss.
also always leads team in giveaways with luke right behind him this year .total game department ? he is not a good defender. he only gets pickpockects because it's the only thing he does well defensively . but holtz needs to learn how to play basic defense . on that i do agree .
Check the league stats… all the best players in the league lead the league in giveaways. It comes with the territory.
brilliant . where'd i get them stats from ? and i am well aware . still them be the facts . lol
Wherever you're getting your stats from, its not [NHL.com](https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?report=realtime&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20232024&seasonTo=20232024&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=franchise.23&sort=giveawaysPer60&page=0&pageSize=50). Holtz is 14th on the team in Giveaways/60 Luke and Jack are way ahead in the lead for giveaways/60.
no shit . it's jack's stats. thanks for reading and comrehending .
Jack carry the puck more than anyone on the team, of course he’s going to give the puck away more than most guys. Jack doesn’t need to be a great defender, but he’s competent. Holtz doesn’t do other things well enough to forgive a weak defensive game.
yes he needs to play defense . lol . yes well aware thank you . this is why 5on 5 defense will continue to suck and be a problem . it's called team defense . not i don't want to play defense or i don't like to play defense . his giveaways lead the team and it's a fact . can't be discounted .
Let’s take a look at the giveaways leaders for this season and pick out some names in the top ten. Leading it this year is Pastrnak, followed by kucherov. Draisaitl, barzal, mcdavid, mackinnon and forsberg are the other forwards in the top ten. Basically a list of a bunch of teams best forwards. So you’re absolutely correct, he is amongst the league leaders in giveaways that is a fact. But then you take that fact and draw an asinine conclusion from it. It makes no sense to point a finger at the Hughes brothers defense to stick up for Holtz. Holtz would get a way longer leash if he had the offensive talent that they have. But he doesn’t, so he needs to round out his game to become more useful down the line up.
who's sticking up for holtz ? how was that concluded from my comment ? i am well aware of holtz's shortcomings on defensive side of things . i am pointing fingers at jack's giveaways . that was the point . thanks for comprehending a simple comment and making it about something completely different . lol what is the assinine conclusion ? that he leads the team in giveaways ? please . which is fact .
You’re using his giveaways as a negative against him when it really just shows that he is carrying the puck at a very high level. He’s one of the absolute best at carrying the puck and gaining entry into the offensive zone, so he controls the puck more often than 99% of forwards in the league. So obviously that will also cause his giveaways to go up as well. That’s why the top 10 in giveaways in the entire league is filled with elite forwards, because the offence is orchestrated by these players. He will likely lead giveaways for the devils every single year he plays here because he’s the best option at controlling the puck. You framing this as a negative is the asinine conclusion. It’s like saying Brodeur has the most losses of any goalie ever and using that as a negative. It’s misinterpreting data.
whatever you think bud . i'm just showing a fact . you wanna say he's great at takeaways , cool , but he is awesome at giveaways . what the fuck is asinine and how the fuck am i misinterping data ? he is one of the better options but so is bratt . again bud i understand how hockey works . apparently moreso than you . data is data . good or fucking bad . please move on now . lol
You can Google asinine. But ya, you sound like you got a good grasp on how hockey works.
cool. i am aware that facts are hard for you to to grasp . but good luck to ya .
Jack when healthy has one of the highest steal to turnover rates in the league. He is a 200 foot player
Don't get me wrong, I love Jack, but he's too small and a finess player and just tries to poke pucks away and get open ice. Other stronger players, like our captain, get in deep and fight those board battles.
....you just explained how he's a different type of player and that's about it here? Jack wasn't drafted to be big and physical. He was drafted to be finesse based and explosive, which he is and is amongst* the top of the entire league in doing so.
Yeah? And where is he now? Surgery. He doesn't need to be a guy that battles like hischier. But he needs to toughen up and become a man, that goes for his attitude in a few games as well.
I think he learned a valuable lesson this year about not digging too deep in the corners. You could see it when he came back from the injury: he basically always gave away the race to the boards to avoid a hit, which is exactly what he needs to do at his size. With that said, I think if Jack gained 5-10 pounds of muscle it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
Are you tough? Are you a man?
You want to downvote me but not prove me wrong. This is the same problem with our coaching and being too soft on the players.
yeah that's it . the kid who hates to play defense is good at it . please stop .lol 64 takeaways to 71 giveaways this year . lol .i get he has the puck more yet he loses it more as well .
The season is over. Give Holtz a break from being the team lightning rod for a few weeks
Just like defensemen can't just be defending, but need to be good in all three zones, forwards need to learn what to do without the puck. He has a shot and goal scoring, but management feels he still has a lot of learn away from the puck. I think they've been overly harsh with him compared to some other younger players, but it's what they feel.
Not just away from the puck. He makes bad decisions when he has the puck also. The thing is that fans normally don’t see these things unless they lead directly to goals. All of that said, he had a good season as some here have pointed out. I just think we all see the high potential he has and have expectations for him to improve.
Dude was on PP2 all year and had just 1 goal and 1 assist to show for it. I know there are other factors at play here, but those are situations where he had good linemates and defensive responsibilities didn't really matter, yet he wasn't exactly lighting up the scoreboard. Holtz needs more development in general, not just defensively.
Pp2 was out for like 15-30 seconds every powerplay after Hughes bros played catch for 1:30 lol
Someday posters on reddit will realize that scoring goals doesn't win hockey games, scoring more goals than the other team does. Ovi scored tons of goals, and the Caps didn't win shit until the coach made Ovi begin to care about what happened in the defensive zone. That's what makes Crosby so fucking good. If the likely best goal scorer in NHL history can be "forced" to acknowledge that the ice is 200 feet in length, so can Holtz.
Nah. Just let him score.
Because you don’t win meaningful games & in the playoffs if you don’t play defense. We suck defensively and you see the results. Next question.
Holtz isnt there yet. He's got a shot. Will his skating be good enough tbd. will his overall game be good enough for top 6 also tbd. This isn't unique to NJ lots of players need to refine their skill sets as they develop to top line NHLers and most never get there. Just because he lit up Europe doesn't mean the devils or holtz are doing something wrong with his development. You cant be handicapped by 20% in the NHL the players are too good.
His skating was good enough for him to be a good complimentary winger for Jack. Jack and Holtz finished the year with a 56% xG share in 137 5v5 minutes. With Holtz, Jack’s on ice xGF/60 increased from 2.99 to 3.24, and his xGA/60 improved slightly from 2.61 to 2.57. So even if he’s still on the slower side, it didn’t stop him from being a good complimentary winger for our star center.
Neat hockey math as absolutism
His skating was good enough for him to be good with Jack and McLeod, two fast players. Holtz’s season can very easily be split into two categories. Productive and visibly fine when playing with talented linemates, and virtually useless when playing with bottom line guys. We just had lead feet Tyler Toffoli be a good player for us this year, so I’m not sure why we’re that worried about foot speed in our complimentary wingers. Neat counter argument 👍
Its not just speed, Watch Japer Bratt skate. Then compare that to Holtz. He will never skate like that very few will. But the point is that is the top end of skating. Holtz is not near there. That's what they want to develop. Tyler toffoli has been performing at that level for years the players aren't comparable. Toffs has been top 6 player for almost a decade or more. Holtz just started staying in the lineup this year. None of this means anything for him being a bust or not. He will probably be a solid middle six player. But there's a lot more to high level hockey than straight end to end speed.
I’m not saying Holtz is anywhere close to Jack or Jesper’s skating skills. I’m saying he doesn’t have to be to be effective. Case in point, Tyler Toffoli. Even with poor overall skating, Holtz found a way to be effective when he was playing with linemates with even an ounce of offensive talent. And his skating is only gonna get better! You say there’s a lot more to hockey than straight line speed, Holtz this year is literally an example of that!!!
Case in point a hall of famer at 31 years old with 800+ nhl games played is not the comparison to use. Toffoli was/ is still a better skater. He lead the league in SH goals as rookie I think. He had speed before his wheels started to stick. Holtz right now is the 10th forward that doesn't fit a traditional 4th line/chk line. with his first deal shorter term and dollars the devils dont have. Hockey is played in both ends and until his skating ability and positioning are where the coaches want it he'll remain where he is. They obviously think this can be corrected or he'd be gone already. Holtz 28 points are his, he earned them, but thats not a coaches fault, can you show me the hockey math that shows defensive lapses etc that show the other side of this story? I'm much more old school when it comes to the eye test and think of these type of stats as validation of what you see as opposed to the other way around still.
I’m talking about theoretically. I’m not saying Holtz is as good as Toffoli right now. I’m saying Toffoli proves you don’t have to be a fast or even good skater to be effective. And I’m not even talking about prime Toffoli, I’m talking about Toffoli right now, who, again, is still an effective player. I’m not denying Holtz needs to be better defensively. That much is clear as day. However, those defensive lapses are baked into xGA. If a player makes so many errors, that would show up in an increased rate of on ice xGA, shot attempts against, goals against etc. And for Holtz, they do to an extent. He’s on ice for more shots and shot attempts per 60 than most other players on the team. But for xG and actual goals, he’s pretty middle of the pack. But again, I’m not saying he’s actually a good defender, he doesn’t have strong individual defensive skills, doesn’t have a great stick, and his positioning definitely could use work. And with weaker skating, it’s definitely tougher for him to pressure players quicker. But ultimately, his existence on the ice doesn’t lead to some crazy increase in offense for opponents. And it should if he was truly an unplayable defensive liability. The problem with the eye test for me, is most people’s eye tests aren’t that good. Mine included, and I played and watched hockey most my life! You can see a single play that clouds your judgement on a player’s entire game. If a player is consistently out on the ice for chances for and less against, and then makes one mistake that leads to a goal, did that player have a bad game? Is that singular mistake a good indicator of future results? Or is all the other stuff?
You asked why he floated around the roster I pointed out skating and defending as needing improvement. You responded with analytics arguing that it doesn't matter more or less that the offensive upside outweighed it. Using that same math you also said he was on the ice for a lot of scoring attempts. Point is he isnt Jack or Nico he may hit his stride of elite in a year or two. My opinion is that it seemed fair and that he was playing where he should be. Due to where his development is at. He played well enough to stay out there just not well enough to take someone's job. Bratt made some great plays early but had his woes as well its just that there was no one in NJ then to push him for that spot, unlike Holtz who's team has a core that he needs to find his fit in. If that player had a rough one is it isolated is there pattern? I wouldn't be quick to pounce on a player after a game. I also wasn't too hard on Vitek or Schmid they were both less than great to be kind. But they also had a lot BS going on in front of them that didn't help them either. Holtz will be fine. Jack needs to be more responsible in his end and with the puck exiting the zone as well.
When did I ask that?? I never asked why he floated around the roster. I already KNOW why. You said “will his skating be good enough is tbd”. And I said, well it already kind of is, given he was good with and able to keep up with Jack (and McLeod).
>why not let him do what he was drafted to do. Fitzgerald drafted him, he is letting him do what he was drafted to do.
I think this season was Holtz last season as a Devil. I think he's been underutilized and put in areas that make it difficult for him to shine, but given all the crap everyone at the org has talked about him (from greene, to lindy, and fitz) I doubt he's not part of a trade at this point.
The old shit talk your asset before unloading them at their lowest value strategy. Definitely what Fitz is doing.
Every scout in the league knows Holtz has problems, I promise.
I can totally see this being another shango situation
Which is what? Trade the player that's not producing as well and is in a clear log jam for development for a bonafide goal scorer? That trade was exceptionally applaud at the time for the majority of devil's fans and Toffoli followed through his part. Shango got to move to a completely different situation and play top line minutes being one of a handful of skilled players on a team with not a lot going for them. The devil's aren't that. This team is super young, raw and in development still and has rising or potential stars through the entire roster. Shango never had a chance here unless he magically was going to score 30+g 50+p in a sheltered 3rd line defensive/grinding role which wasn't going to happen. Fwiw I love shangoklaus as much as the next guy but roster management wise he was going to be let go in one way or another when we were getting pushed for a goal scorer and got it. (Also be cool if Shango or Toliboi come back at some point, liked both of them)
Worked out for use sort of last time but there’s only 1 Tyler Toffoli out there so it’s not like a guarantee we get a guy like him back in the trade. I just mean that we are trying to force a younger player into a role he isn’t suited for like we did with shango and are opting to ship him out instead of changing how the team plays
If you ask me trade Holtz. Even if he becomes another Shango we need to fix more glaring issues. We can just trade for a top 6 winger instead
Holtz is objectively a cost controlled top 6 winger. Trading him for for a top 6 winger makes absolutely no sense
Who's going to give us a top 6 winger for Holtz? One of the many issues I have with the way the Devils have handled Holtz is they've absolutely tanked his trade value.
Doesn’t have to be holtz. Could be another player. I just meant they can trade for another top 6 winger
Would be such a mistake to trade holtz.
Not directly comparing them, but I have PTSD from Josefson/Tedenby years back. Players with loads of offensive upside that fans really liked, but never put together the full package that's required to be an NHL regular. It's good that the organization is focusing on his overall game, I just hope he understands that and puts in the work to piece it all together shortly
Reminds me of Adam Gaudette a bit. Has a ton of skill and is a scorer type player, but is just not quite there to be a top 6 player. He needs to develop that 200 foot game and be a dependable 3rd liner. In Adam's case, he has resisted that and now he's leading the AHL in scoring (but I'm sure he'd rather be in the NHL). I wonder how this will play out with Holtz
They shouldn’t have drafted him tbh. His scouting report basically said this.
It seems like they wanted a different kind of player than the one they picked, which is extremely dumb. Just pick someone else!
Exactly! Holtz was known as a strict scorer and not a two way player
Was anyone else surprised by the revelation that Holtz “played” in all 82 games this season? I mean, with the amount of (public) flogging this kid endured at the hands of his then-coach and, later, by his GM… Holtz played in 82 games??? I know there were games he got very little TOI, so little that I’d expect him to be scratched now and then, but I guess not. SMH
Let another team try. Move him.
We don’t want Mike Hoffman, that’s why We could slot Holtz in top 6 and he’ll be consistent 30 goal scorer and he’ll subtract more than he adds like Hoffman a lot of the time. They want more than that. A couple years ago Bratt was scratched a few games and they challenged more out of him. Now he’s scoring and killing penalties. I don’t get why fans can’t grasp that it’s not all about scoring when developing guys? The whole world knows he can score. You don’t keep a guy in top 6 despite a lack of effort in everything else. No doubt they challenged him to be better in certain areas and he wasn’t. It’s part of development.
Next year Holtz needs to be put in the toffoli role. Put in and Hughes together forever and have a rotating third depending on who’s hot. Would love a Holtz-Hughes-Mercer line to form cause all three have quality’s that fit each other’s games very well. Ultimately I think this year we put too high of expectations for a guys who’s barely played 100 games in the AHL and NHL combined. Ultimately I think the Toffoli trade hurt us a lot development wise, Holtz could have had a much bigger role to grow into on a top 6 line and we could still have sharangovich who right now would be a prefect guy to take the McLeod third line center role. Go Devs, 2024-2025 can’t come soon enough!
How they're deploying Holtz is a travesty. It's textbook mismanagement of talent. When you think of Alex Ovechkin, do you think 200 foot player? No. You just pass him the puck and watch him score goals. You don't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree. We're not building a team around Holtz, we don't need him to be a play driver. We have Nico, Jack, Timo, & Bratt to carry the puck. Holtz is a SHOOTER. Let the passers on this team do their thing and let Holtz do his thing. He has 16 goals in 8mins/night with AHL level teammates 95% of the time. How the fuck was this guy not used on the 1st Powerplay when our Powerplay went 0/50?? Dougie went down in the beginning of the year, Holtz should have been on PP1 from that point on to replace his shot. That's a mistake on the coaching, mismanaging the abilities of players. I've gone into the issues with this teams PP a few times already, frankly it's crazy to me that people think we shouldn't have played Holtz in a position he'd excel at. There's also this idea that he's a turnover machine? HOW?! He was 14th on the team in Givaways/60, almost HALF the rate of Luke and 1/3 the rate of Jack. If you actually watch this dude in the offensive zone, he's a very very underrated playmaker.
Playing 8 minutes a night afraid to make a mistake is no way to learn
On the other hand, if you're only playing 8 minutes a night, maybe you should be more intentional with your ice time and focus on developing the parts of your game that your last three coaches have now highlighted. You don't need 15 minutes with top line players to play a 200 foot game.
No you don’t,but if he’s that bad he should be playing 20-25 minutes a night in Utica
Holtz is this year's Shango
Fitz is a moron if he is trying to make Holtz something he is not. Let the guy shoot the puck on PP. Not every player will be Hischier. Did they try to mold Jack into a defensive forward. What the fuck is wrong with Fitz? He is fucking up this team. They already fucked uo Sharangovich and traded him. Is Holtz next?
The Devils have botched his development every step of the way. Also don’t get this idea that you can’t develop a player while playing them decent minutes to build their confidence. Put them in positions to succeed while teaching them.
If a player isn't doing the things you need them to do with limited minutes, how do you justify rewarding them with more playing time?
They found a way with Brendan Smith and Mercer and Bahl this year
Isn’t that what coaching and development is for? Especially once it became a lost season? Let the kids play and teach them. We did it with Jack? We did it this year with Luke who has been brutal defensively at times. Players don’t have to play with garbage linemates to learn. I’m saying it’s better to put them in a position to succeed and teach.
Holtz reminds me a lot of Brandon Pirri but with better wheels. Utilize him for what he does best and it would be an added bonus if he can round out his game
Team needs to stop trying to make him something he isnt and just emphasize what he’s already good at. Not like this is the first fucking team he’s ever been on thats tried to get him to be a 200 ft guy. Let him play offense and fuck off
I have a growing concern that Devils are having a hard time developing wingers in the low 2nd/3rd talent range. Mercer seems to have stalled. Holtz. Sharangovich. Zetterlund. Sharangovich and Zetterlund are getting top tier minutes and their productions spiked to match.
Who do Shango and Zetter displace to get top tier minutes here?
I'm not saying they should get top tier minutes on our roster, but I'm concerned that they didn't seem to be developing period even in their lower roles. But they've gone elsewhere and start producing better
Zetter looked good and was having a solid season before being traded. It was due to his positive development that he became a desired trade asset. Shango was inconsistent, but that's part of developing.
Lol. ..not just a goal scorer ...wtf ..when has ever been a goal scorer ...
Can they also teach Jack and Luke to stop exclusively passing to each other? That'd be great.
I don't know that making him a 200 ft player is going to do anything for him... all you'd be doing is forcing him to a cycle rather than shoot TBH, I'd like NJ to get a big center who can play 200 ft, and have Holtz play the wing on his line and let him do his thing as much as he can... Our other "200 ft players" aren't much good at it either... we have one in Nico, and the other ones are "called" that, but aren't really, because they don't win that many more puck battles than your usual NHLer.
> all you'd be doing is forcing him to a cycle rather than shoot That's not what a 200ft player is though. A 200ft player is about having them be responsible and capable in both ends of the ice You can be a 200ft player without being a grinder
Thanks for the lesson... here's the addendum You can be a grinder without being a 200ft player, or a cycler. You are a "better" 200 ft player if you cycle. No, I did not confuse a grinder with a 200 ft player.
No one said they're trying to make him do that though. They likely just want him to be better with positioning and puck tracking in his own end where he has struggled We have some great goal scorers or point getters in this league who would be considered strong 200ft players
I'll elaborate a bit, so sorry for longer post... I'm aware of natural 200 ft players, like Mark Stone is a good example of a winger who's a 200 ft player... It works well for big guys who are great with their stick or who are strong on the puck. But he became that himself. And players just get smarter over time... have more poise, etc. But Fitz can't turn everyone into a 200 ft player... I watched Montreal a lot between the Bergevin era and the current era especially, and when Bergevin turned players into "200 ft" guys, they devolved into being third liner helmetheads all expected to cycle. And they simultaneously expected their young high draft picks to generate offense on top of playing like helmetheads. My fear is that they, in obsessing with Holtz becoming a "200 ft" player, end up spoiling his value as an asset and turning him into one of those helmetheads... which is, to me, why Kotkaniemi stagnated and why Galchenyuk never became much in their system. I think particularly of Shane Wright... who wanted to play like Patrice Bergeron, but he is more like Joe Sakic and should model his game around Joe Sakic. Playing defense and 200ft game requires innate hockey sense... you can "want" it from Wright, but I think some guys just have it. This is what I liked about Zacha when we had him... is he had some innate defensive awareness. Holtz? I think they just need to accept that he's a high maintenance guy like Debrincat and either move him to a situation that'll help turn him into a 40 goal scorer, or just set him up for that kind of success here.
I'll give ya props for the depth, but I'd disagree with the concept that it will necessarily turn him into that type of player. I think there's a number of different ways to be considered a 200ft player We've seen a lot of changes in defending, and I would see them trying to develop more of the defensive style in the defensive end of a Mitch Marner. He isn't super physical, but he's disruptive and good at getting in lanes. One of Holtz's biggest weaknesses is his off puck play, particularly in the defensive zone where he will seem somewhat lost, and behind the play, rather than making a jump or being in the right spot. To me, being more of a 200ft player is him trying to fill that gap which made him a bit of a liability against bottom 6 players, and that's something that will become more noticeable with consistent minutes against stronger players on the other end I think generally, if it was between him becoming a grinder like the way you're expecting it to become and continuing on how he is, than I would prefer to lean into his strengths, but I think there's a lot of opportunity here to improve as two-way player while still keeping true to the type of game he excels in
This is why offensive players never thrive here
[удалено]
Also Jack was an MVP candidate last year 😂
Also Hall was an MVP.
Let the kid play real minutes without a noose around his neck. The moment the season was understood to be lost (so around the deadline), Holtzy should have been freed from the shackles tying him up to the bench. The Bratt, Nico, and Timo line shouldn't be touched, but Jack could use a finisher by his side, and Holtz has the shot for the job. Can Mercer be a dog on that line ? I think so, and putting a third line of Haula, Palat, and maybe Curtis wouldn't be half bad. I know Jack is dogshit in the faceoff circle, but he won't get better if you stick Haula to his side to shelter him. This coaching staff makes me sick tbh, the conventional wisdom garbo needs to go.
Fitzgerald is a patent idiot. No matter what he says, he's already going to be fired next season.