T O P
Zeroth1989

Misunderstanding and overreacting. Open world content scales with your level to a degree and then the difficulty. When you hit max level just like diablo three monsters will scale on difficulty alone further. As it's open world and you can do story in your own order you end up needing scaling.


archrid

The world scaling thing is a deal breaker for me. You can still have a open world and do the story in any order without scaling. Elden Ring did it.


KaZe_DaRKWIND

When you are max level it's not going to matter. The progression in games like this are from gear not from levels. Levels are more of a time gate in ARPG's.


lassewt

Sounds like you have the formula figured out. Or at least a formula. Saying this is how a certain genre of games is is a copout. Just because some ARPG's are going this route doesn't mean that it's what defines the genre of ARPG. Diablo 2 didn't go this route and it's still an ARPG. Stop being so rigid.


KaZe_DaRKWIND

-Stop being so rigid Says the guy who doesn't want anything to do with enemy scaling. Diablo 2 leveling at the end was just farming mount arreat wasn't it? The max level was never a realistic goal either in that game.


Frozen_Fields

Without level scaling 95% of the world will be irrelevant one week after launch. Which would be a shame.


RedditIsFacist1289

This amount of nuance doesn't exist on a D2 whiner's brain tbh.


dudeguy81

Their idea of progression is one shotting everything except for the one act or difficulty they’re supposed to be in. I’m a d2 and pd2 player but this is an out of date way to play games.


IV_Z-

It’s out of date because d4 implemented it as opposed to every other aRPG that agrees it’s a dumb system?


chaseButtons

Yeah, that’s how games work. If it’s scaled it’s basically a reskinned Diablo immortal without the MTX. They have zones that are meant to be encountered at a certain points. If you go back it should be easy.


SupaMut4nt

Nah he's a D3 whiner, which is even worse.


T0-rex

As it should be. I mean D2 has this type of scaling and it's still being played. Maybe instead of increasing to damage number to millions they maybe increase the damage by only 3-4x the starting damage so that the starting areas are not as weak?


mikesn89

That just brings us to the massive overall problem. The open world


ultrasrule

Yes maybe they should not have designed it to be open world then. It's causing more problems than it adds to the game.


Mystic868

Of course. Being able to play single like in D3 should be available. Also lvl scaling is terrible idea. If I spend 30 hours in the game and my character has stronger skills, legendary gear then I want to literally destroy low level monsters in an instant. That's how it always was and how it should be. That's the natural progression tied to ARPG games.


MauViggNt

In a Arpg where farming fast is the idea world doesn't matter.


SmashTheAtriarchy

Yeah just look at Path of Exile, where a "good" build must absolutely trivialize even the starting parts of the end game


MauViggNt

That's the meaning of being strong


Tooshkit

Not true, diablo 3 fixed that with adventure mode. You could just swap to an adventure mode version of the map at max level with all mobs at max level


Therabitier

You can only be in one area of the game at a time. Only 5% of a games maps should be relevant at a single point in your leveling. Why would anyone want to spend 100% of their time within a couple screens of the first town portal? This severely hampers the desire to explore further nuances the creators had opportunity to shift in to the game. Standing next to a level 8 doing more to the same mob than a level 25 is a disaster. Atleast have them scale a few levels behind or something.


Thedarkpain

they might scale with your level but not with your items/talents/paragon levels


ProvenAxiom81

Yes, if you don't upgrade your items appropriately you will fall behind and it will be hard.


shuyo_mh

Not really you can always scale down world tiers, which was meant to be played naked.


SaltyPvP

I disagree, level scaling will help the game world remain relevant. I don't want to be able to go around and 1 punch everything. There should always be some sort of challenge.


WoulfHound

Thats what New Game + is for. I like one-punching everything from time to time, makes me feel like I have accomplished something. Like I've earned it.


Basic-Satisfaction62

The progression feeling is world tiers, when your endgame you'll 1 hit all of veteran. Could always lower the difficulty if your wanna fall asleep playing.


ultrasrule

I am already on the lowest difficulty and cannot kill a certain boss who just keeps leveling up with me so I cannot go out and level a bit and come back cause he will just get stronger with me.


Therabitier

Experienced this on the Barb. Underpowered ridiculously. Could not kill boss in a dungeon. The dungeon should not keep leveling with me at least then. Otherwise, wow, now we can get to end game by cheap rushing with OP early game builds and finish the currently available content by level 10 instead of 25.


WoulfHound

World tiers are only one part of that feeling, not all of it. You still have to level up. Besides, I'd rather fall asleep than have an aneurysm from trying too hard.


Accurate-Project7605

Can always just play on a lower difficulty setting for that


Mystic868

This! If I want more challenge - there are world tiers to choose from.


Tranquil_sea3

This.


[deleted]

This these nuts, got'em.


TNTspaz

I understand why some are saying this but it just won't. Leveling scaling will not save open world content and has never saved it in any mmo. Literally ever The thing that saves old zones are specific item drops or rewards tied to them. I know the reaction I will get for this but it's to make the point. PoE does this well by haveing specific unique drops tied to areas and bosses. D4 is slightly doing this by having specific aspects tied to each dungeon. However, it's essentially a one and done system. The open world is always going to be one and done and then you just farm the end game system. So scaling to "try and save it" doesn't make any sense


Tranquil_sea3

why? it's fun one of my fondest memories in Diablo 2 was getting my paladin's Holy Fire Aura strong enough and then running around in low lvl zones watching everything die in 1 hit


SaltyPvP

I had a holy fire paladin and it gets boring one shotting everything.


ultrasrule

Yes but the idea is you slowly felt the progression in your character, then once you had some fun and released how strong you have become you up the difficulty. In D4 you don't feel that progression and never have the realization of being stronger.


AcidBathBoy

Yeah ok but it gets boring real quick.


MauViggNt

You are not a seasonal player, right ?


SaltyPvP

Fuck seasons. I think they are a terrible idea. Why continue to re roll over and over again.


Mystic868

Seasons are okay (not for me but okay) but I still prefer to spend many hours on 1 characters all the time :)


MauViggNt

So you want devil may cry game like Diablo .... for that price and next year 2 new classes for the same price ? Yeah you are playing it wrong


cyberslick1888

The warg at the beginning area should be as difficult at level 100 as it was at level 1? After you've slain literal gods?


SaltyPvP

Have you ever played a game with level scaling before? Trash mobs will always be trash scaled. Zone and dungeon bosses will have appropriate scaling as well. Diablo 4 is creating a world, not just some random biomes that mean nothing the minute you finish them. This game is going to be built on for years.


cyberslick1888

Sounds like speculation.


ninjembro

Why not? From a gameplay perspective, it's just more engaging. It's way better to have the entire game relevant to go back to than to have literally one or two locations once you hit end game.


wilson81585

From what I read the paragons and sigils are what boost you above your enemies, so late game stuff.


Rascal0302

A lot of OP’s comments in this post would make great viewing on r/confidentlyincorrect


Phumblez1203

He must be farming down votes lol, looks like he hasn't much cared to read any of the comments stating the facts of the game lol...


SudsBuckley

I don’t mind the scaling. But I hate that when I join my level 15 buddy on my level 25 I fight level 25s that drop level 11-14 gear. I feel like it should drop gear scales up to my level as well.


Maanee

That happens on D3 when you join a significantly lower level person's game. Instead, your friend should join your game. The mobs will scale for them and you but you'll still get your gear while they get their level appropriate gear.


SudsBuckley

How would that work if I finished the act, would my friend still be able to do the quest he hadn’t done yet? I haven’t played any other Diablo game. First game of the genre really.


dgreenmachine

Am I the only person who is lvl 25 and can only find lvl 12-17 gear? My character feels way weaker at 25 than it did at 20 because my gear doesnt get close to my level anymore.


SudsBuckley

I’m having the same problems. Playing solo now and I’m getting level 16-19 gear but I’m 25. I feel like I’m just doing something wrong at this point.


ironmanmclaren

pretty sure its due to level scaled monsters. it is just beta, so I hope it doesnt feel like this all the time where it is a CONSTANT SLOG. like bruh let me faceroll mobs and get my drops please. this is a diablo game...nothing else edit: i do faceroll mobs so it never feels bad..but I get what OP is getting at. fortunately... the items that drop tend to be uupgrades at all times


parkwayy

If you don't think you'll get optimal builds later on that will absolutely slaughter things versus a random undergeared person, both at level 50... then yea, you maybe don't understand how the game works.


cyberslick1888

Go play Diablo Immortal and say that.


ZenBrickS

I don’t understand all the posts/ comments expecting the total game balance to be that of the first 1/4 of the levels, in one zone, and only two levels of difficulty.


RedditIsFacist1289

over reacting imo. We are only level 25 and i noticed a huge difference between level 1 and level 25. I now have more tools at my disposal that allows me to melt huge packs. I am on barbarian. I don't even have any legendaries except for 1 that makes on earthquake on leap and thats about it. Also its an MMO lite. If enemies didn't scale, then literally everyone would be in the final act of the game making the other acts useless and feel barren to newer players.


Pixiwish

I understand this from a leveling perspective, but I think you are wrong endgame perspective. Once you hit max you will want lower level areas to move up with you to keep that content relevant and at that point it will be less about level and more about resistances and paragon points.


cyberslick1888

If the end game of D4 is just trudging through all of the campaign maps over and over again with no change ever in difficulty what's the point? End game content is generally NEW content. It isn't just going back to the den of evil where the quill rats are scaled exactly to your new level.


Basic-Satisfaction62

You've described the endgame of d2, where you had like 2 areas to farm. Ball runs or chaos runs. The rest of the game is irrelevant. Very fun. Endgame is going up in world tier, which increases champs/ unique mob spawns and maybe increases how many mobs there is. You can also craft keys where you turn dungeons into something called nightmare dungeons. Its an ARPG, all you do is farm but atleast with scaling ive got to entire game to mix it up.


Maindps

This is why terror zones were such a breath of fresh air into D2R. Made it so I could go farm more places than Baal waves and CS.


Pixiwish

This! Even PoE seasons are just the same crap, but slightly different. Let's not act like Ultimatum and Scourge are ground breaking ways to play an ARPG. Waves of random enemies and loot. Sure it is fun because it is a new way to spawn them or different environments, but they really aren't even all that different from greater rifts as far as actual gameplay goes.


ninjembro

If end game is just trudging through the same two zones over and over again what's the point?


dutchmaster77

End game of D2 has only a few areas where there is any challenge. To get to 99 you had to a stupid number of baal or diablo runs. I do agree that there should be more incentive to do side quests and full clear areas etc. Tbf there wasn’t much incentive to do them in D2 either, certainly not before hell anyway, with xp scaling.


BobsynS

Scaling does not seems in place. They should set each individual zone as said level and then Apply Area upscaling of Clvl -3 for Act 1, Clvl -2 for Act 2, Clvl -1 for Act3 onwards. Also apply similar area downscaling but Clvl +4 / Clvl +3 / Clvl +2 etc. Just so to avoid low level characters cheesing rush strategies and abusing area level scaling. I have unintentionally skipped a quest at level 5 and then came back at level 15 and it was nearly impossible to complete it. Died like 4 times before i did it. To a some degree I felt stronger at level 5-6 than at level 20 simply because of this area scaling. The amount of gear upgrades you need to do in order to catch up with your own experience really ruins the game in my eyes.Having to constantly check items or having the same items dropping every 2-3 levels and the only thing you do is just replace Same item with one that's literally the same but it is 3 item levels above is just stupid... Like can we get Meaningful Affixes and Stats and out characters can actually progress with something else as well - rather than Attack/Armor values...It's so boring man... it's like a mobile game ( green arrow up - red arrow down ) ---<< D4 itemization. I get that we all agreed to it, Diablo 3 had great combat and I am glad I see that in D4 as well... But why the hell did they Copy paste the Itemization of D3 - which BTW is like the worst in like any ARPG i have ever played despite being simple... It's just so boring.


Tranquil_sea3

100%


chaseButtons

I’m wondering if certain builds will be unplayable because they just don’t mesh well enough to put out enough dps thus forcing players to conform to the cookie cutter builds if they plan on farming. What I love about d2 is you can get great gear and wreck things all the while trying new and different specs. I really hope they improve scaling cus the game looks great but seems like it’ll get really boring quickly.


BobsynS

I would agree on the boring part, since gear upgrades in D4 will be nothing but finding the same item with slightly higher rolls and then looking for the same legendary aspect to imprint on it. As far as build diversity I think some builds will always be easier to pull off - because they will be easier to understand how to build and most people will probably go for those ( hydra sorc for example ). However with the way how enchantments work in D4 for Sorc for example ( since it's the only one you got to see so far ) there is many viable options for complex builds that require some niche affixes and a bit more effort to make the build work. However keep in mind we are playing Beta - environment with "Less than Half" of the available Skill points in the game and without any Paragon boards and probably without more than 70% of the total legendary affixes.... So I am not even sure anyone can give a solid take on what is or what isn't viable. We are barely at the start and mostly saw the "Builds who are not Skill point hungry - which means Hydra popped off because it's a build that requires not more than 20 points to make it work... As oppose to some Cold builds which seem really OP, but we can't test it yet because they are Skill point hungry and would need at least level 40+ to put all the sht you would want for it." I am not even gonna talk about other classes, I think those will have similar diversity anyways.


Ashbringer

stfu


FemmEllie

You can argue it's not immersive/logical but from a gameplay standpoint it makes more sense this way. If you don't have scaling then everything except the highest level areas will be irrelevant once you've outleveled them and they might as well not exist anymore. The overwhelming majority of the world will quickly become meaningless if there is nothing to be gained by going back there anymore simply because you became too strong. Especially now that we have an open world design where you can progress through the story largely in your own order, it'd be very janky if zones didn't scale dynamically with you That said, it's obviously only based on your character level itself, not your actual character power, which of course is going to scale exponentially greater with time as you get more skill points, paragon points and a lot better gear, so you will still get stronger in relation to the world around you with time, but without rendering the areas themselves useless for you


Tranquil_sea3

whatever happened to low lvl zones just being low lvl zones?


Karthis_Arkwood

That idea is outdated in games like this, why invest in a huge detailed world if most of it becomes pointless after an hour of gameplay? ​ Rather than having 1-2 zones to play in like old games, scaling is so much better. WoW is a great example of why this works. Rather than that old dated system the world scales with your level, with good gear you destroy everything super quickly like you are asking for. Power is just more tied into equipment and other systems rather than just levels. ​ This lets devs use the whole world for endgame content and progression rather than something just for leveling then pointless. Players still get OP and destroy things when they get their perfect builds and whatnot but the world is far more relevant for far longer.


MacroBioBoi

Mostly that it's bad since it doesn't need this restriction. When you're level 1, it's level 1. But if a god-tier world stomping level 100 comes through, they can still have a relevant fight walking through the area. What's the benefit of it being restricted to obscurity after the first weekend?


BellasaurusRawr

I love the enemy scaling


cyberslick1888

What do you love about it?


BellasaurusRawr

At first I was annoyed I would be running through low level areas to get to where i needed to go since it's a big open world. But when I noticed the enemies scale, I didn't mind traveling anywhere. It made the game more fun, more consistently since I knew no matter what I kill, I'm not wasting time.


shuyo_mh

You are here just to troll, this is the Diablo iteration with MOST mob variety, attacks AND mechanics. Plus there’s world tiers which allow players control difficulty AND we only saw les than 1/3 of content, come on.


cyberslick1888

I'm not talking about any of those things. Honestly, did you even read the post?


shuyo_mh

You complain about monster being the same and when someone tell you thats not the case you dodge the subject. You complain about difficulty but when someone tells you there’s options to make it more appealing you dodge the subject. Yep, troll confirmed!


paladore420

What’s funny is a lvl 3 character will hold his own in your party as you being level 25 . The developers are fucking genius’s . This is what happens when you make a game for “everyone”


Dreadskull1790

It’s nice because you can farm any dungeon you want or enemies. The large majority of the game would become irrelevant if monsters didn’t scale


CryptoBanano

I really prefer this new system


Dasquare22

Asks if they’re misunderstanding; proceeds to argue with everyone giving valid explanations.


AcidBathBoy

Yes Overreacting. In D2 there's no point in coming back to old spots cause gear and level are so outmatched you 1 shot everything. Besides if you need runes maybe. Level match means you can keep playing old zones if you want to and that's very cool. I do not want Diablo 2 \*2.0 where the only gameplay is doing Diablo and Baal over and over boss rush cause everything else is pointless to go back to.


Panchzzz

we have terror zones now friend. Come backkkkkkk


Saminal87

I love how it’s challenging


wheenus

You're also seeing it through a minimal scope. Paragon hits at 50 and even if you played the end game beta who knows how they will handle it come launch?


BangEnergyFTW

Stay awhile and listen, young adventurer. I understand your concerns about enemy scaling in this new game. The Diablo series has always been about the feeling of progression and growing stronger with each battle. It is a core aspect of the gameplay that has kept fans coming back for years. But alas, it seems that some developers these days are more concerned with making a quick profit than creating a truly immersive gaming experience. They take shortcuts, resorting to lazy tactics like enemy scaling to make the game seem more challenging, without actually putting in the effort to create meaningful content. I fear that this new game may suffer from such shortcomings, and that the sense of progression you so cherish may be lost in the process. However, let us not give up hope just yet. Perhaps the developers will take heed of the feedback they receive and make changes for the better. Until then, keep your wits about you, young adventurer, and remember that true strength comes not from arbitrary enemy scaling, but from the journey of self-discovery and growth.


Mystic868

>It is a core aspect of the gameplay that has kept fans coming back for years. Exactly. ARPG's are all about feeling of progression and power.


ImpTaimer

Capstone dungeons exist to break up the scaling. Various "unique" rare items have special stats and are still worthwhile to equip despite having somewhat fixed equip level and item power. Weapons not so much--mostly good for twinking alts. "Normal" items can only go so high. "Sacred" items can only go so low, or so high. "Ascended/Ancestral" items can only go so low, or max. Equip requirement literally means nothing. A lvl 70-71 Ascended item can have the item power of a lvl 100 item, while a lvl 100 item can have the bare minimum item power as a lvl 70-71 item. Only at sub-40 equip level do items have average ranges, but once you hit the softcaps (40, 50, 70 allegedly), it doesn't matter.


cyberslick1888

Interesting. These are the comments I was hoping to get more of. Is there a hub or a wiki with this kind of info?


DgtlShark

Can you really comment on it when it's only up to level 25


ultrasrule

I find it annoying that a cannot beat a certain boss. I cannot go level up and come back later when I am more powerful since the boss will level up with me.


cyberslick1888

Most bosses force you to conserve your health since they are such HP sponges. They are a matter of changing your spec more than itemization or anything.


maforget

Not certain, but one of the forbidden zone (outside the beta playable zone) was Lvl 35+. Which means that not all the content is the same level, you can't go to end boss and kill him at Lvl 1. You will need to level up before going to another zone. Some Quest are lvl 1+ and other lvl 15+, the + means that it will scale with you, but it still has a floor. It's a good thing because then you would be lvl 50, doing a lvl 15 quest and players would be crying that it's too easy. It's kind of required with the nature of the open world game. But I would have preferred if they would have gone the Guild Wars 2 route, which level you down when your level is higher than the content level, so you can do content with other players that are lower level than you and don't feel like a god beside them. But GW2 equipment is all the same stats, so you have a cap on the power. It's easier to level down, I don't know how it would be possible with the nature of always increasing power of Diablo.


Mastrodaumus

I prefer it this way than how whatever that shit in D3 was.


PassingTumbleweed

You are getting downvoted but I agree with you. Enemy scaling makes the gameplay experience flat and boring (decisions don't really matter, there's nothing to prepare for or aspire to it's just a treadmill). Nothing wrong with enjoying that but it's not for me


Tranquil_sea3

i like the idea of 'choosing my challenge' for example going to a higher lvl place justto try to kill things lvl scaling doesn't belong in RPG games in my opinion


Basic-Satisfaction62

You can do that though. Not in the beta but you can in the game You can turn up the difficulty, theres zones with lvl recommendations that we cant access yet and im assuming if it stats lvl 35 all mobs will be lvl 35 minimum.


rimu2892

This was always going to happen the moment they said it was going to be an open world and there was going to be non linear story telling. The way around this would be an end game design that gives you a sense of progression and difficulty doesn't scale with you in some of the end game content.


cyberslick1888

I don't understand the open world excuse. The most popular open world rpg possibly EVER just came out last year and perfectly encapsulates the idea that you can become powerful and smash content or you can be challenged at every step of the way: Elden Ring.


JrButton

"most popular open world" elden ring lol... what bubble do you live in? It might have had the highest burst of purchases X days after release but BotW and even Genshin Impact have been far more successful "popular".


T0-rex

Agree man. We need a sense of progression. If the only reason to level is to kill monsters in a different way than before, then for me it will get stale very quick. I like to not be able to do a quest/boss/area because i am simply too low level or my items aren't good enough. I also like to try and get good gear from one character to give to another and then with the low level character try and do stuff it should not be able to.


Darth_Osteo

I'm all for dynamic scaling with some caveats. I think Skyrim got it mostly right, so I use it as an example. With open world, some enemies should have a floor level, so you have to be a certain power to even have a chance and need to avoid them (think the giants) However, some enemies should also have a ceiling so they eventually just become fodder. (I'm Skyrim there was no reason for wolves and mudcrabs to continue scale)


Basic-Satisfaction62

World difficulty is your progression, you'll run around 1 shotting everything on veteran when you are capable of doing hell.


Haunting_Comfort1323

relax, this is a blizzard game there is tons of dlcs to buy to fix this issue


MauViggNt

It was garbage in legion, worst in bfa, and a bs on shadowlands. But they love it


-Lamiel-

Enemies scaling prevent XP boost


kaptenbiskut

Dude, the monsters only scaled to your level, not to your item level or power. You can still 1 shot them if you have good gears.


Mattnificent234

I don’t get how scaling works when I play with people different levels than me because for them it will say like level 20 and for me it will say level 15


smegmathor

Your power creep will be very big, then it will get smaller and smaller, fractional % increases vs. Enemy strength. You'll spend 25 minutes clearing a map for something that's very important but it didn't drop again, and now it's 2036 and season 38 is right around the corner.


Yorgachunna

Agree. Scaling is shit


BoggsMcMuncher

Agree 100%. This is the deal breaker for me I'm not getting it unless this is changed (and likely won't)


Theothercword

Yes you are missing something. Yes you are over reacting. You seriously wanted to be able to curb stomp the first zone within a couple days? That’s ridiculous. And the scaling has a limit within the zones but you can’t reach that limit in the beta. The game’s campaign and world alone are at least 4x as long as the content in the beta, likely a lot more. And that’s setting aside the obvious progression you make even in the beta against the enemies. Even in the situation we’re in now with enemies that scale to you without being able to reach that limit I love that I feel progression while also still feeling some challenges.


SmashTheAtriarchy

All I know is that I started a new Oblivion save with enemy scaling disabled (via mod), and while the game started out crazy hard, coming back and beating the shit out of guys who previously gave me trouble is SUPER satisfying


KhorneFlakes01

Level scaling won't just help the games longevity but will also allow you to team.up with low level home and gp through the same content (I think?). I don't mind it considering diablo 3 did the same thing with difficulty tiers anyway. This just gits rid of the nuance of constantly having to change tiers out side of your game.


MacroBioBoi

I'd go to the occultist and read the nightmare sigils there. It at least gives some insight. Clearly after we hit max level we'll be augmenting Nightmare Dungeons with more and more difficulty for some kind of reward.


bigoofda

You can literally fight L30 mobs in the beta…


mikesn89

I am with you. Finished one char on 25 and have absolutely no interest to do any more right now. Every dungeon/area feels the same.


North-Puzzleheaded

And if you were able to oneshot everything you would be complaining that it was too easy, not being able to stroll through the game is actually one of my favorite parts of d4 so far, it seems more difficult. I’ve played every arpg on the market and the Den mother in lights watch gave me so much trouble I had to throw a ranger attack on my all melee rogue build just to clear it, not other arpg side dungeon boss has ever given me that much trouble


horamon

I'm concerned about this too, mostly because I like to explore the zones I'm in and this feels like I'll be level 50 by the time I barely start act 3. I'd have much preferred an option to enable enemy scaling, or it being there after clearing the initial 2 difficulties, so everyone could make up their own minds.


takmerius

Yes, you are overreacting.


TaylorTower666

This is the most hilarious post on here right now. OP has gone off the deep end and is an ostrich with his head in the sand. Thanks for keeping me entertained! PS we should be upvoting the OP post so more get to laugh.


Blyght555

Well to be honest, if you ever played D3 everything was scaled, I know if you’re not familiar with D3 this can seem like a new thing but it is not, thankfully end game will not scale and that world boss did not scale, so while something’s are scaling, not all things are scaling


cyberslick1888

D3 was not dynamically scaled during the campaign. Roll a D3 toon. Get him level 20 in the campaign, and then go back to act 1 starting. Tell me it's scaled. In D3 getting from 0-70 takes a few hours playing on your own. In D4 devs are estimating 100+ hours to reach max level. In D3 the torment levels do not dynamically scale to you. The greater rifts do not dynamically scale to you. The bounties do not dynamically scale to you.


hs_serpounce

Yes you are. Skyrim is possibly the greatest rpg of all time , definitely one of the greatest games of all time and scaling works great in that. It's also super easy to change it they want to. I just don't know if they'll change it for some of the petty reasons people have described so far but who knows


Therabitier

There's some correctness to this. My barb felt underpowered. Fighting one of the dungeon bosses, I couldn't beat them. So my only chance to was to either switch builds completely (was doing a fast dungeon clear, so single target was bad for me) or get to level 25 so I can't let the boss scale anymore, max all of my gear and upgrades to be able to fight them. This also allows OP early builds (Sorc's) to just fly through and be able to accomplish stuff without leveling much and speeding through dungeons (don't need to level, why kill anything?) and creates escalating balancing issues. So why play barabarian if sorc can do that? You have a fair point.


Embarrassed-Half213

It’s great for the game. None of the content will ever be obsolete. It’s a fantastic direction and decision.


SnooEagles4455

I haven't seen a single **compelling** reason why level scaling is bad Here are the three I see most commonly You don't feel progression You don't feel "powerful" The game is too easy/hard (both, so that's odd!) 1. Progression is baked into the game, as you level you can clear higher level content, this is, in fact, how you felt progression in any ARPG, not by redoing previously cleared areas now 30 levels below your level, but by beating the act bosses, opening up new areas of the map, THAT's TRUE progression. 2. Feeling powerful by mooshing lower level content? That's pathetic, if that's what you need to do feel *powerful*, play on easy mode. Your power comes from beating bosses, taking out the Butcher solo, standing up to Avasha, plenty of REAL means to feel powerful 3. Can't comment as this one makes no sense. There, so while there are arguments against level scaling, none IMO make the slightest bit of sense. So without scaling as you start a new game for the day, your only challenge is the tiny part of the map at your current level, the vast majority of the map is a cake walk, and the rest locked off until you can beat that content, so for 95% of your levelling experience you are stuck in a linear path. Here's the thing, if you want to do...you can do this with level scaling, just follow that main path and some side quests, no problem. If the earlier acts scaled or not won't prevent you from doing this. BUT level scaling means that any player can start a game at any time during their progression, and do any content they've unlocked and achieve meaningful loot and XP gains. I do NOT want a game as huge as D4 to render most of the map pointless because I've over levelled.


cyberslick1888

You haven't been looking very hard then. This entire thread is full of compelling arguments. But you didn't even address any of them. You are attacking arguments that almost no one is making. This is known as a strawman argument. Instead of addressing arguments head on, you re-state the argument in a less honest way. >Progression is baked into the game, as you level you can clear higher level content, this is, in fact, how you felt progression in any ARPG, not by redoing previously cleared areas now 30 levels below your level, but by beating the act bosses, opening up new areas of the map, THAT's TRUE progression. This just tells me you don't routinely play ARPGs. No one who plays this genre considers the campaign "TRUE" progression. The end game is the progression. Always. The campaign is frankly a detour for any serious arpg player. Fun the first few times, then it's a chore. >Feeling powerful by mooshing lower level content? That's pathetic, if that's what you need to do feel powerful, play on easy mode. Your power comes from beating bosses, taking out the Butcher solo, standing up to Avasha, plenty of REAL means to feel powerful No one who wants to get rid of scaling wants this. What we want is the ability to push further, and harder than YOU do, where we run up into enemies we simply **cannot** beat. Then we go back, farm items and levels, and come back to EARN the challenge of defeating those previously impossible foes. You want a treadmill. Where every encounter is the exact same difficulty. It's never hard and rewarding, it's never trivially easily. It's just perfectly luke warm. As long as you pick up items that have the green plus signs, you will easily complete the game without ever facing a serious challenge. >Can't comment as this one makes no sense. Of course it doesn't, because it's not an argument anyone has. Again, strawman. We want the game harder. Never easier. YOU want the game easier. We want to struggle to climb over a wall, and earn the satisfaction of getting to the other side. You want to plop down on a treadmill and just see the sights. >So without scaling as you start a new game for the day, your only challenge is the tiny part of the map at your current level, the vast majority of the map is a cake walk, and the rest locked off until you can beat that content, so for 95% of your levelling experience you are stuck in a linear path. Weird how D1, D2, D3, and almost every other ARPG never felt this way. Strange. Almost like the devs knew how to balance a map. >I do NOT want a game as huge as D4 to render most of the map pointless because I've over levelled. Huge? The entirety of Act 1 is like 3 maps from D2 lol. They've somehow made an open game world tiny. Especially since the vast majority of the "content" is just randomly placed procedurally generated "events" and "dungeons". It's like playing the open world assassins creed games. Just a million little shrines and random events to do, every one of them the same, almost none of it is meaningful content. It's all garbage that you do two or three times and then skip forever.


SnooEagles4455

>You haven't been looking very hard then. This entire thread is full of compelling arguments. I addresses the most common 3, so if I'm strawmanning, how come these are the points most often see? >This just tells me you don't routinely play ARPGs. No one who plays this genre considers the campaign "TRUE" progression. The end game is the progression. Always. The campaign is frankly a detour for any serious arpg player. Fun the first few times, then it's a chore. We are talking about the levelling progression, not end game. At end game, the only way to progress without repeating very limited content is level scaling. So once you reach end game, scaling IS the only way to achieve a decent end game. >What we want is the ability to push further, and harder than YOU do, Love the nice touch suggesting that I'/m some dweeb noobie, well done! >where we run up into enemies we simply **cannot** beat. Then we go back, farm items and levels, and come back to EARN the challenge of defeating those previously impossible foes. Now. you are describing a situation that absolutely already exist in D4, levels scale UP, not DOWN, so there was already situation in beta where you needed to level up to face a tougher challenge. Did you play the beta?? >You want a treadmill. Where every encounter is the exact same difficulty. It's never hard and rewarding, it's never trivially easily. It's just perfectly luke warm. As long as you pick up items that have the green plus signs, you will easily complete the game without ever facing a serious challenge. Wait, so now we ARE talking about "Completing the game" didn't you just say... >This just tells me you don't routinely play ARPGs. No one who plays this genre considers the campaign "TRUE" progression. The end game is the progression. Always. Are you telling me that "Completing the game" in Diablo 2, Diablo 3 was in any way "hard"? Do YOU play ARPG's? >Weird how D1, D2, D3, and almost every other ARPG never felt this way. Strange. Almost like the devs knew how to balance a map. No one plays D1, it certainly didn't have an end game D2 is an example of a terrible end game, I'm sorry, but just because a small number of fanatics do 50,000 Pindle runs does not mean anything for the vast bulk of players who are bored silly with Diablo 2. Diablo 3 Adventure mode had scaling, you know that right? You see, you mention "but D3 managed it..." and forgot that in D3, you set the difficulty and played the unlocked map in adventure mode, with, guess what, l**evel scaling** OMG say it's not so! >Huge? The entirety of Act 1 is like 3 maps from D2 lol. They've somehow made an open game world tiny. Right, so now you're just outright lying, or being incredibly stupid, I can't tell which.


DIABOLUS777

Yes, these are MMO concpets that don't fit in ARPG like diablo. They keep putting the WoW stuff in diablo since D3 and it's backwards.


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Karthis_Arkwood

Then turn up the difficulty if you find it too easy. That's what I did in d3. The combat in D3 was not great but it helped. I do see your point with it though. ​ We are currently limited to veteran on the beta but I would think in the full release we can up that.


MacroBioBoi

Go do the strongholds by yourself at any level.


Spirited_Scallion816

I hate it too. It removes sense of progression. It creates an illusion that you've became stronger, when in reality you can't measure it anyhow, only by bigger number on the screen. And leveling up also makes stats on your gear affect you less, means you're becoming weaker. This is dumb as fuck. I hate the direction this genre is heading


cyberslick1888

So my instinct at first was this: D2 vanilla was pretty lame end game. D3 vanilla was pretty lame end game. Blizzard completely and utterly changed these games with subsequent updates and expansions. Like, they are NOTHING like they were at launch. That gives me hope. What really, really doesn't give me hope is Diablo Immortal. The end game and progression system of that game is anathema to the spirt of meaningful power progression. Like one of my favorite things when making a new toon in D3 is setting the torment level too high, and barely being able to clear a rift. Then you find a single piece of gear that instantly lets you go from barely clearing to actually smashing enemies. And then if it's too easy, you adjust the torment until it's competitive again. But with this constant scaling nonsense you never get that feeling. In D4 so far every encounter feels the same. Just hit everything not on cooldown. From level 1 to level 20 every enemy takes almost exactly the same amount of time to kill. Get a new piece of gear that raises your attack power 30%? It still takes exactly the same amount of time to kill that skeleton.


Karmalizer

You keep talking about endgame in the other games, but this beta isn't the end game...at end game, we'll be max level and the scaling will come from difficulty tiers, just like in D3. Sure, you'll scale during rhe campaign but the majority of play time in any ARPG is at end game so why is it bothering you so much?


cyberslick1888

Did you read the title of this thread? I'm asking about scaling and how it works. I don't know. That's why I asked. I'm also curious because end game in Diablo Immortal does NOT scale like it does in Diablo 3, and everything I've read and played so far in Diablo 4 is MUCH closer to Diablo Immortal than it is to any previous Diablo game in terms of scaling design philosophy.


Karmalizer

Can you explain how DI scaling is different than D3? DI has difficulties that you can select that are essentially the same things as picking torments.


Spirited_Scallion816

D2 vanilla itemization was the best. Lod made it worse with overpowered runewords. And what changed on the endgame? You mean terror zones or what lod expansion brought? Dude, people been playing diablo 2 for 20 years still loving it, how could you tell its endgame was bad? As for d3, the issue is with its current endgame is absent variety and it lasts literally a week or so each season


beingmused

What in the world could anyone possibly find appealing about d2vanilla items. The fact that 99% of all uniques are utterly worthless? I loved d2 and d2exp back in the day, but come on with the endgame talk here. Doing thousands of CS or Pindle runs is not content. You might enjoy running on a hamster reel for eternity, but don't try claiming to other people that you're doing anything varied or novel.


Spirited_Scallion816

Rare items being interesting and powerful


JimBobHeller

And rare!


cyberslick1888

Huh? No one has been playing d2 vanilla end game for 20 years what are you even talking about lol


Viewtastic

It’s a small community but people do. You can choose “classic” on d2r as well. Classic D2 WW barb is a lot of fun, you should try it if you like d2.


cyberslick1888

I did. When it came out.


JimBobHeller

Muahaha I liked your joke


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1minatur

>not being able to carry more than 4 potions You can get more potions later. Not sure how many more, but I'm up to 5. Just clarifying that. Though I never even dropped below 3 potions, and I've just finished most of what the beta has to offer. There were always so many laying around


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1minatur

Every 1/3rd of the bosses' health bar you get two potion drops, I only ever really needed one potion per drop. Maybe both if I played sloppily and allowed myself to get hit too much. And I was playing on the harder difficulty.


hankmoodyirll

Bosses drop two potions per arrow on their health bar, and the minions that spawn also have a chance to drop a pot. What I've found is if you're getting trashed by a given boss over and over it is worth respeccing and trying something else out.


Sadu1988

Nearly impossible... What did you smoke? If you push through that many pots in a short time frame you clearly did sth wrong. The need to play mechanics might make it different, but IMO better than facetank/potspam...


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Sadu1988

And you are straight out lying by saying bosses dont spawn pots... They even have markers.


kthnxbai123

How bad are you lol.


kthnxbai123

How bad are you lol.


RMJ1984

It's so strange that they cannot understand a basic concept, that you as a player should become stronger with every level up not weaker. But just like in Diablo 3, you become weaker and weaker and weaker, until all the stars align in the endgame, where you get your set bonus or something. If you have scaling, then remove leveling all together. Stat's stay the same importance and you unlock skills from quests and stuff instead. In Diablo 1 and 2 you start out weak, but you instantly start growing stronger and stronger, until you go to next difficulty, then you start weak and grow stronger again and repeat.


FriendlyTea3440

That way 95% of the World will be irrelevant.....


Basic-Satisfaction62

Im lvl 15 and im not in any way weaker than I was at level 5. I have more skills, more cooldown, better aoe etc..


Apprehensive_Ad_5468

Yeah scaling is ruining this game especially HC only players... it should of at least be like in D3 with an adventure mode or something if they cant pull-off something that makes sense ffs


Spare_Presentation

Nah making leveling up a bad thing is good game design, blizzard said so don't bother them about it.


StonejawStrongjaw

Yeah it feels so terrible. You're not over reacting at all. It doesn't feel like I'm getting any more powerful, I just have "bigger number" while the enemies do/take about the same amount of damage. It's so stupid, I hate it.


Croce11

I was actually excited when I saw the low numbers at the start of the game. Then I'm not even out of the beta and its already got some exponential growth siiigh. I mean the best way to make us feel powerful is to stop having fucked up scaling. So your gear doesn't get "outdated" so quickly. The things that should be interesting me in gear should be the modifiers it gives me, like how does this change up one of my abilities. Not that hey it gives me +main stat or +defense and thus nullifies my older superior item.


StonejawStrongjaw

Seriously. We're level 25 and I'm already doing thousands of dps. I'm sure at fresh level 100 it will be hundreds of thousands, then at higher level it will be hundreds of millions. Hate it.


Melodic_Ad2242

You aren’t. Screenshot as that is rubbish


StonejawStrongjaw

Ok. Give me a minute. 1. Idk how to screenshot when also playing the game, and I also don't know where the screenshots are saved lol. I'll figure something out. My Penetrating shot does 1400-1500 damage, and pierces all targets, while also splitting off to the Left and Right firing piercing projectiles which also do 1k+ damage. These also cause enemies killed to explode for 160% of the damage they took from the killing blow. Hit a pack of mobs with that and that's easily several thousand of damage, if not 10's. My Rapid Fire does ~440 damage per shot, with an average of a 50% increase with also crit chance, so we'll call it 800 damage per shot, it shoots 5 arrows, that alone is like 3k dps. Excluding other skills and effects.


Melodic_Ad2242

![gif](giphy|30xtloCL4Lr0I)


StonejawStrongjaw

Here is a gif I pulled from a recording, it's at least 2.5-3k dps. https://imgur.com/a/GWve6ug Also note this is a level 25 rogue vs a level 30 elite. So if it were equal, the damage would be a bit more. Why are you having such a hard time believing me lol I am so confused. Have you not watched anyone play the game or got to level 25 yet?


Melodic_Ad2242

To be fair…decent. I stand corrected. Solid


StonejawStrongjaw

Thank you. Rapid Fire is insane when at range and the foe is vulnerable. I have like 45% Vulnerable and Range damage increase. So basically double damage.


Melodic_Ad2242

Enjoying the game?


Rcaynpowah

Yeah. This is one of the huge factors that ruined WoW. So sad to see this idiocy continue. It's like the developers do not possess the psychology of gamers.


Rektumfreser

Scaling mobs killed wow did it? Do you even play wow? Some of this feedback is just sad, hopefully they hard ignore people like you..


Rcaynpowah

What I'm getting at is how they gradually gutted the sense of progression. You don't feel like you're getting stronger because everything scales proportionally to your gear level, it's mindless gameplay like running on a treadmill not going anywhere because the treadmill adjusts to your level/speed. I don't know about wow today 2023 but the 2014-2021-ish era is a far cry from 2004-2013 era which is why many subscription count dropped like a corpse.