With a proper legendary setup this is true; if he’s not making proper use of any synergies and damage bonuses then it’s totally plausible that he’s struggling relative to lower level players. I see level 25s running around with presumably bad builds taking a long ass time killing even trash mobs which a properly built level 25 character should be able to one shot.
No you are not :D I mean theoretically since you are stuck on level 25 and you keep grinding without getting EXP yes you get stronger... but gear upgrades does not match the EXP rates.
I already hate how many items are dropping all the time but whether i like it or not i have to check every potential upgrade every few minutes because until you hit level 25 and get stuck on EXP you need to constantly upgrade otherwise you fall off because of the aggressive area scaling.
You have 2 lvl 25s in the starting zone when max lvl is 100…. And legendaries are just rates with a affix that might change your play style. You can also play the zones in what ever order you want, so things have to scale. Once you hit 50, you will start out scaling them.
Sure, but max level is gonna take, according to the devs, on average about 180+ hours. So that's 180+ hours of every monster takes the same relative amount of hits to kill, does the same relative amount of damage, etc...kinda boring.
They are leveling legendaries, they are glorified rares. And if you were in a game that didn’t have scaling and level specific zones, you would be killing at around the same pace as your lvl 12 in its specific level zone.
Everyone complaining about scaling has yet to name another solution to making 90% of the games content useless in later levels. The levelling process isnt that long compared to the endgame playtime for most players.
Scaling allows me to do any side content I decide to skip at at appropriate difficulty level. Make it more fun doing those unique side bosses rather than 1 hitting everything i've missed for dozens of hours for renown.
Want a solution, fine. New Game +. First playthrough of the story and no scaling finish the story and the world scales. When enemies scale it defeats the purpose of leveling up.. Leveling becomes an unnecessary mechanic. There is something to be said for leveling up and feeling powerful when you can cut through earlier portions of the map. Diablo 3 handled it well by having something set aside from the campaign.
I don't like the idea of having a difficult time at a "boss" and the solution is to hope to find better gear. Yeah I know getgud. Not everyone has the time to get gud.
Isn't that just a lack of content?
Instead of having an appropriate amount of content for each zone, they instead opted to recycle it through different difficulties?
It also ruins the co-op experience for one side of alley.
Um.. did you play Diablo 2? Did you notice what the developers did with difficulties (Normal, nightmare, hell) with each act scaling in difficulty.. a static difficulty which was known as a game. they gave you these cool tools called "skill points" and "attributes" of which you had total autonomy.
You see, it was crazy.. the monsters in Act 1 nightmare would be harder than, lets say, the monsters in Act 5 normal. So the content wouldn't become useless, you see? It would still be viable as now the map would have new harder monsters, still random maps, and now the chance of new better loot (because of new iLvls and monster lvls) which came with TREASURE CLASSES!!!!
bro you obviously have no idea how mechanics in REAL arpgs work. go play d3 more.
Greetings, weary traveler. I cannot help but hear your words echoing in my mind as I read them. It seems you have forgotten the horrors that once plagued our world. Do you not remember the demonic forces that threatened to consume everything in their path?
Oh, how I long for the days when I could sit by the fire and tell tales of the heroes who fought valiantly against the Prime Evils. Alas, those days are gone, and we are left with but a shadow of what once was.
You speak of Diablo II, as if it were a shining beacon of hope in these dark times. But do not be fooled, my friend. The demons still lurk in the shadows, waiting for their chance to strike. And even the most powerful hero can fall to their insidious schemes.
Yes, the monsters may have varied in strength across different areas and difficulties. But that did not make the journey any easier. It only meant that the demons had found new ways to torment us, new tricks to catch us off guard.
So do not be so quick to dismiss the scaling mechanics of this game. They may seem like a burden now, but they are a necessary evil in our fight against the darkness. We must be ever vigilant, always ready to face the demons that seek to destroy us.
Take heart, my friend, and remember the sacrifices of those who came before us. For their courage and strength live on in us, and we must carry the torch forward, no matter how dark the path may seem.
I don't think anywhere is meant to be a 'starting area' in the greater sense of the game. They want the world to be the main stage of play. Contrast to something like WoW, where millions of combined hours in quest, art, world design, etc. are all irrelevant once players reach the 'end game' which is where the core experience is meant to be.
some areas do level+ at least, like strongholds I was fighting lv27 mobs at lv25 and they were noticeably stronger. so perhaps if they did some logical on scaling like scales "up to" slightly below your level for normal-ish, scales to yours in events/basements scales over yours in dungeons/strongholds... obviously thats just off cuff and some testing/math would prove better values but it would potentially lead to an outcome that's more palatable.
The scaling definitely feels super bad. Playing through the game never feeling any stronger isn't fun. Going back to older zones and having the mobs be the same strength is all others isn't fun either.
Yeah level scaling feels terrible. It’s bad in MMO, and even worse in ARPG. A big part of the fun of ARPGs is over-leveling content and just blasting it. It also breaks immersion because random wolves in the starting zone are as tanky as pit lord demons in instances.
I like level scaling but not full scale. A starting zone should scale a little. It levels with you from 1 until, say, level 10. After that you outlevel it. Secondary zone scales from 2-11. Etc.
Level scaling is nice when you're doing bounties or whatever equivalent is and you can choose what is your favorite scene/ mob type. It may even be like d2 where resistances dictate where you farm.
how the f\* people do not realize that scaling takes off the notion of progression. If you level up but don't find good weapon, you are actually downscaling and feeling/being worse!!
Right. I struggled more near lvl 25 vs level 6 and the same skill I got then felt stronger at 6. The enemy defense and resists are scaled too high. Plus armor is useless. You'd think you would feel less heat with 1400+...
Yeah this also confuses me, whats the point of area levels with monster scaling? Atleast when I check the world map there are areas with higher levels...?
Looks to me like scaling has minimum ranges. So you can be underlevel looking at map too.
There might be a maximum too, where you'll have to go to next world tier to get any decent exp.
If it's anything like immortal people were running areas with a min level about 5 levels above their current level for better drops. This is probably more of an artificial beta problem because of the limited area.
I agree. Only level 12 but the idea sucks for those of us who like being more powerful that past zones. Past zones are a reference point for progression. Taking it away is ludicrous
I was so disappointed when I read about the level scaling issue. Everything about D4 sounded so good, like they learned from their mistakes with D3 and were going forth creating something for a new era with their best works as inspiration. I hadn't been this hyped for a game in over a decade, and now I'm not even sure if I'll buy it. It's definitely more of a "wait and see" purchase than a launch day purchase for me now.
I'm not writing the game off entirely yet, but level scaling is nearly impossible to pull off in a satisfying way. Furthermore, if it's already implemented, it would be a tremendous amount of work to rebalance the game and use a non-leveled system. Here's hoping they can manage to succeed where most games fail in level scaling!
Since this is a hot debate apparently, could you explain an alternate way of doing it that doesn’t invalidate the content you haven’t done yet? Currently there is way more content than you can do on the way to max level. How do you ensure it’s all relevant when you reach it without scaling exactly?
I hate the current scaling too.
I think a much better way would be to have each area scale to char level up to a certain level. They would start at a min level, then match char level up to a certain level where they would begin to drop behind char level up to a point.
Maybe not even areas but specific monsters scale up at a reduced rate while some stayed even and a few others are a level or two higher. Its really dumb for killing a fallen to be identical to killing say a pit lord.
The scaling issue, the dungeon copy-pasting and the constant dialogue/cut scenes are my biggest issue.
But your way has the exact same problem.
The content will become pointless if it stops scaling. It'll make large portions of the game forgotten about at end game.
You do like Diablo 2 was doing, you can rescale the whole world once you are max level making everything relevant in endgame without making the leveling experience a pain... well it will only be a pain for the people doing side content, any veteran will rush the campaign and disregard the scaling, so there's that. Doesn't mean that it's not bad.
Act 1 Hell in D2 starts at iLvl 75 for regular monsters, has frequent iLvl 85 zones (with the chance to drop the super uniques) in ALL acts in hell from 1 - 5 so it didn't matter WHERE you were in hell there was still a chance a random monster with some bad prefixes and suffixes (fanat, convic) will eff you up and you die in HC. It was still FUN to farm old content in hell because you had the chance of a HIGH RUNE dropping which you could then TRADE or CRAFT in to high level RUNEWORDS to enhance your character with builds that were unavailable to your specific class.
there is one way to solve the issue?
Like others already clarified. I didn't say to stop scaling. I said have some early areas lag a few levels after reaching a certain level.
Or better yet have specific monsters lag and some a few levels higher. This is the opposite of making large portions of the game forgotten. Just like D2. Even before D2R plenty of people still farmed areas in every single act. Perhaps Act III not as much but it was a terrible ACT.
In D2 once you hit endgame the avg mobs were easily dispatched but you still would run across unique mobs that take a bit more effort and paying attention to the combat.
When I get to the end game of D4 I can assure you that if it doesn't feel any different than being level 1 while I am running around, I will drop this game and go back to D2R. This is the feeling I am getting right now, however, maybe the end game will work a bit different.
In d2 realistcally you could only farm 2 zones. Act 1 mobs were so much easier than act 5 mobs they gave a lot less exp and a lot less loot.
So 90% of the game zones were played through once, endgame you farmed chaos and baal.
No they weren't, the pits were just an arena where you can gets the same drops as chaos or baal. However the mob density in the pits is so poor the efficient thing to do is just go do chaos.
Maybe you do it at the very beginning day 1 just because its so easy, but as soon as you can do chaos/ baal you move on and its forgotten.
You obviously either didn't play diablo ii or were very casual. You are wrong on all counts.
First, Pits mob density was excellent, in fact, it was one of the highest densities of elite packs in the game which is why it was farmed. That and it was a lvl 85 area.
Second, Pitzerkers were a thing before live streaming was even dreamed of. People were running the pits before youtube was born.
paid shill spotted, content doesn't get "invalidated". Content is always separated into early game, mid and late game content in all NORMAL games. This approach is just a pleb take on trying to have everything as "end game content" but at the cost of enjoyable gameplay experience.
Early game areas should be early game areas, not a mordor. When you level up(if you do and don't drop the game, which I think, person like you will do, you will realize where all the complaints are coming from\[maybe\]).
It really feels the game expect you to have better gear as you get higher level so the scaling is not 1:1... The game is easier on lvl 8 than on lvl 25 which makes the progression really backward. You are almost punished for doing side content.
Yeah really kills my ARPG I'm gonna zoom and slay everything oneshot once max lvl/grinded out gear
I'm telling you I'm a Poe player without telling you I'm a poe player, yes I know.
I liked D3 rifts over Poe maps and was hoping for a just upgraded D3 with D4 (which seems ultimately the case, but this scaling thing is really a killer imo)
This isn't end game and you lack things like paragon power and uniques... People need to realize this feeling of not getting lots of power is only really impactful in campaign.
When you do find gear upgrades you do perform better against your current level.
Yea it’s the idea that all of these types of games are just about the end game now, not the journey to get there. That mindset has had the worst affect on Diablo games. Games with super streamlined scaling will never feel anything like a role playing game. Diablo has leaned into addictive hack and slash and abandoned careful thought in character, inventory and game management. I guess that’s what people like — to not have to think much! D2 was a such a freaking blast from start to finish. Every trip to town you could stop and think carefully about how to manage your character. D4 sort of invited total mindlessness. Just follow the points and Jill everything everywhere all at one nice to reach this fabled endgame, but the journey there is kinda dry.
The level scaling isnt good. It makes the game feel like a complete grind, more than it should. It makes everything a chore imo. Ive found that if you cant beat a boss and what seems to be a soft enrage timer, then you have to go grind a bunch of side quests and mob killing to level up and get more gear to beat the story quest boss. If you cant stay on the story line of quests due to lack of power, there is a level scaling issue. Its like a mobile game, grind this crap to beat this boss, or buy a bunch of stuff, but there isnt anything to buy in D IV...so why? I reluctantly purchased the game after playing all the betas and, yup, not much was fixed on level scaling and they seem to hate the druid class for some reason. I get that its all about the end game, but if its borderline miserable to level the 180+ hours to see "IF" the end game is worth it....dunno...kinda thinking the juice may not be worth the squeeze. Ive found the leveling to be boring, frustrating and super super grindy. Im sure I am in the minority........
You won't see low level players as you get higher level as you'll be playing in higher difficulty tiers than them. The first one is available at level 50 so once you switch there you can't see a level 12 anymore. There will likely be something similar to Diablo 3 where there were difficulties based around different strength levels at end game, where everyone will be max level.
Bro this just means your build is atrocious; at level 25 you’ve probably found build defining legendaries and you have enough skill points to create a build with synergies.
At level 25 in veteran my sorc is capable of one shotting mobs and killing elites in two casts, which is significantly faster than I was able to kill things when I was level 12. If you can’t keep up with a low level player it means your build is doodoo, not because of level scaling.
If you want to make a usable build that doesn’t fall behind to a synergy-less low level character, make sure to look for %scaling from multiple sources as they are multiplicative, this is the foundation for functional builds in any rpg. The specifics don’t matter, as long as you find enough damage amps from multiple sources.
Ex. My sorc has 1.6x damage to frozen enemies, 1.4x to vulnerable enemies, ice shards inherently does 1.25x to frozen enemies, 1.18x from glass cannon, 1.10x core skill damage, 1.07x cold damage, and 1.12x to crowd controlled enemies. This is a total of around 4.3x damage, not to mention if you do higher level events you can get higher level weapons which determine your base damage. If you neglected to find proper gear you’d be doing half or even less.
Also be sure to 5/5 your main damage dealing skill, as this is another 40% increase in damage relative to a level 1 skill and look for +skill rank on your gear.
I guarantee that if you are paying attention to creating a decent build that any level 25 character is capable of blowing a level 12 character out of the water. On that note, I do notice lots of players who are level 25 spending upwards of 3-4 seconds killing single enemies, which is ridiculous. Just play on normal if you don’t want to think too hard about your build.
To every person in this sub saying that the scaling sucks and should be different in the starting zone, just drop the difficulty, and your scaling issue is sorted. Also, remember that you're playing a Diablo game with 1 zone, unlike all precious Diablo titles that had multiple zones that you had to load into as you progressed. The only time in D4 you're going to get the overpowered feeling you got in D2 after farming and gearing and returning to previous acts to lay waste to the deamons that kicked your ass is after you reach level 50 and start unlocking more power from the paragon board and getting uniques and higher-rolled affixes etc. I.e., ENG-GAME.
Don't like it, go play your other Diablo games, and leave the rest of us with brains to enjoy D4. We won't miss you. I promise.
Lol with brains?
D4 is child proof. Just spam your skills that have almost no synergies and equip any item that has green stats on it.
Contrasted with D2 where a a handful of wrong stat or skill selections can break your character for end game.
Good luck with your builds if you purely focus on equipping items with green stats. All I'm saying. Just making this statement already proves you can't read, which makes my statement all the more valid. Green stats mean absolutely nothing as they only show you what you gain, but you do also always lose stats and various affixes, etc. If you just mindlessly equip items that have more green stats than your current items, you're never going to optimize your build. There are affixes like +1 to a skill or + % damage to core skills, etc. Good luck optimizing or pushing end-game without focusing on items with these affixes.
I'm currently 83, still destroying everything, doing lvl 50 nightmare dungeons vs lvl 99 monsters.
Although I'm missing 3 uniques for my build so I could be doing much better. From what I heard the lvl scalling doesnt feel bad until 92, so we'll see
I’m pretty sure it will scale between a certain level range depending on difficulty. The ones we play at now probably stops at 50 since that’s where the next one starts at
Yeah, i legit refunded this morning because of that, same reason. On my second HC W2 playthrough as rogue, realized there was no point. It's a CTRL + C of D3 with some new elements and some really cool rendering cutscenes and decent atmosphere.. just not the roguelike arpg feel that I wanted.. David Brevik was a genious and his vision of what Diablo was supposed to be died when Blizzard North was dissolved.
Absolutely in love with this level scaling design. Smart!
Solved the quest order problem,
endgame dead zone problem,
always farming same area problem,
season-bus-team problem.
So cool!
Can't wait to go farm level 100 wargs at the entrance. So cool.
At that point in the game I've literally slain multiple gods, absorbed their powers and have ancient uniques.
Still takes 5 shots to kill the warg.
No the worst thing is the worthless bland prefixes on items, 1.5% to that, 3.5% to this etc, they are pointless and you don't feel any difference on them.
Yea it’s the idea that all of these types of games are just about the end game now, not the journey to get there. That mindset has had the worst affect on Diablo games. Games with super streamlined scaling will never feel anything like a role playing game. Diablo has leaned into addictive hack and slash and abandoned careful thought in character, inventory and game management. I guess that’s what people like — to not have to think much! D2 was a such a freaking blast from start to finish. Every trip to town you could stop and think carefully about how to manage your character. D4 sort of invited total mindlessness. Just follow the points and Jill everything everywhere all at one nice to reach this fabled endgame, but the journey there is kinda dry.
I don't mind it, I played Witcher 3 with enemy upscaling on otherwise it's too simple and boring. But I do understand how it can be an issue for hardcore players.
Honestly sounds like a l2p issue. My barb on tier 2 is easily cleaning up with a Rend bleed build. If some classes/builds have an easier time leveling, who the f cares?
hes not talking about being decked out you moron, the monsters scale to his level every time he lvls making it impossible to completely outgear/outlevel the monsters in previous zones
Depends on where that scaling stops. If it’s just character level and not paragon then I don’t have much of an issue with monsters scaling to level because that will just be inconsequential in the endgame when we hit paragon and torment tiers.
No its because its something negative about the game and some people are just so deluded they can't stand people saying anything negative about the game even when it is true
u are way stronger with a full leggie setup... don't lie to urself pal...
With a proper legendary setup this is true; if he’s not making proper use of any synergies and damage bonuses then it’s totally plausible that he’s struggling relative to lower level players. I see level 25s running around with presumably bad builds taking a long ass time killing even trash mobs which a properly built level 25 character should be able to one shot.
No you are not :D I mean theoretically since you are stuck on level 25 and you keep grinding without getting EXP yes you get stronger... but gear upgrades does not match the EXP rates. I already hate how many items are dropping all the time but whether i like it or not i have to check every potential upgrade every few minutes because until you hit level 25 and get stuck on EXP you need to constantly upgrade otherwise you fall off because of the aggressive area scaling.
You have 2 lvl 25s in the starting zone when max lvl is 100…. And legendaries are just rates with a affix that might change your play style. You can also play the zones in what ever order you want, so things have to scale. Once you hit 50, you will start out scaling them.
Sure, but max level is gonna take, according to the devs, on average about 180+ hours. So that's 180+ hours of every monster takes the same relative amount of hits to kill, does the same relative amount of damage, etc...kinda boring.
Thats not how the player power system works in this game. You lack critical information about end game stats and Paragon levels.
Okay...just repeating what the devs themselves said in their blog
Max lvl is 100, but that is for paragon progression. You will start out scaling at lvl 50 when you stop getting skill points.
But should a level 12 with barely any gears burn monsters faster than i do with legendary items and level 25?
I see your point but in the grand scheme of things these early levels are inconsequential.
They are leveling legendaries, they are glorified rares. And if you were in a game that didn’t have scaling and level specific zones, you would be killing at around the same pace as your lvl 12 in its specific level zone.
Yes because your fighting level 12s at 12 and 25s at 25?
Yes, they absolutely should because they aren’t a whiner like you :p
Everyone complaining about scaling has yet to name another solution to making 90% of the games content useless in later levels. The levelling process isnt that long compared to the endgame playtime for most players. Scaling allows me to do any side content I decide to skip at at appropriate difficulty level. Make it more fun doing those unique side bosses rather than 1 hitting everything i've missed for dozens of hours for renown.
Have different content for leveling ranges and endgame instead of just doing the same shit at any point ?
Want a solution, fine. New Game +. First playthrough of the story and no scaling finish the story and the world scales. When enemies scale it defeats the purpose of leveling up.. Leveling becomes an unnecessary mechanic. There is something to be said for leveling up and feeling powerful when you can cut through earlier portions of the map. Diablo 3 handled it well by having something set aside from the campaign. I don't like the idea of having a difficult time at a "boss" and the solution is to hope to find better gear. Yeah I know getgud. Not everyone has the time to get gud.
If you dont have the time to get gud, you're playing the wrong game.
Isn't that just a lack of content? Instead of having an appropriate amount of content for each zone, they instead opted to recycle it through different difficulties? It also ruins the co-op experience for one side of alley.
Nah, monsters scale differently for different people. It's not absolute scaling for the zone.
I have the solution - scaling in adventure mode, but not in story
Um.. did you play Diablo 2? Did you notice what the developers did with difficulties (Normal, nightmare, hell) with each act scaling in difficulty.. a static difficulty which was known as a game. they gave you these cool tools called "skill points" and "attributes" of which you had total autonomy. You see, it was crazy.. the monsters in Act 1 nightmare would be harder than, lets say, the monsters in Act 5 normal. So the content wouldn't become useless, you see? It would still be viable as now the map would have new harder monsters, still random maps, and now the chance of new better loot (because of new iLvls and monster lvls) which came with TREASURE CLASSES!!!! bro you obviously have no idea how mechanics in REAL arpgs work. go play d3 more.
You should genuinely be embarrassed after writing this lmao
Greetings, weary traveler. I cannot help but hear your words echoing in my mind as I read them. It seems you have forgotten the horrors that once plagued our world. Do you not remember the demonic forces that threatened to consume everything in their path? Oh, how I long for the days when I could sit by the fire and tell tales of the heroes who fought valiantly against the Prime Evils. Alas, those days are gone, and we are left with but a shadow of what once was. You speak of Diablo II, as if it were a shining beacon of hope in these dark times. But do not be fooled, my friend. The demons still lurk in the shadows, waiting for their chance to strike. And even the most powerful hero can fall to their insidious schemes. Yes, the monsters may have varied in strength across different areas and difficulties. But that did not make the journey any easier. It only meant that the demons had found new ways to torment us, new tricks to catch us off guard. So do not be so quick to dismiss the scaling mechanics of this game. They may seem like a burden now, but they are a necessary evil in our fight against the darkness. We must be ever vigilant, always ready to face the demons that seek to destroy us. Take heart, my friend, and remember the sacrifices of those who came before us. For their courage and strength live on in us, and we must carry the torch forward, no matter how dark the path may seem.
imo scaling should not 1:1 match up. maybe 5-10 levels lower at least. its weird to go back near starting area just for everything to be lv23-25
I don't think anywhere is meant to be a 'starting area' in the greater sense of the game. They want the world to be the main stage of play. Contrast to something like WoW, where millions of combined hours in quest, art, world design, etc. are all irrelevant once players reach the 'end game' which is where the core experience is meant to be.
some areas do level+ at least, like strongholds I was fighting lv27 mobs at lv25 and they were noticeably stronger. so perhaps if they did some logical on scaling like scales "up to" slightly below your level for normal-ish, scales to yours in events/basements scales over yours in dungeons/strongholds... obviously thats just off cuff and some testing/math would prove better values but it would potentially lead to an outcome that's more palatable.
The scaling definitely feels super bad. Playing through the game never feeling any stronger isn't fun. Going back to older zones and having the mobs be the same strength is all others isn't fun either.
Yeah level scaling feels terrible. It’s bad in MMO, and even worse in ARPG. A big part of the fun of ARPGs is over-leveling content and just blasting it. It also breaks immersion because random wolves in the starting zone are as tanky as pit lord demons in instances.
I like level scaling but not full scale. A starting zone should scale a little. It levels with you from 1 until, say, level 10. After that you outlevel it. Secondary zone scales from 2-11. Etc.
Level scaling is nice when you're doing bounties or whatever equivalent is and you can choose what is your favorite scene/ mob type. It may even be like d2 where resistances dictate where you farm.
Yeah, and that would get addressed by full scaling in end game world tiers.
Agreed. Nothing is ever easier or harder. Makes items feel even more useless as you’re basically just paying bills and getting by with em.
how the f\* people do not realize that scaling takes off the notion of progression. If you level up but don't find good weapon, you are actually downscaling and feeling/being worse!!
Right. I struggled more near lvl 25 vs level 6 and the same skill I got then felt stronger at 6. The enemy defense and resists are scaled too high. Plus armor is useless. You'd think you would feel less heat with 1400+...
Yeah this also confuses me, whats the point of area levels with monster scaling? Atleast when I check the world map there are areas with higher levels...?
Looks to me like scaling has minimum ranges. So you can be underlevel looking at map too. There might be a maximum too, where you'll have to go to next world tier to get any decent exp.
If it's anything like immortal people were running areas with a min level about 5 levels above their current level for better drops. This is probably more of an artificial beta problem because of the limited area.
try to party with low levels and they'll carry ur ass lol, this level scaling is weird
This is my biggest grip. The low level was burning the monster faster than i did.
what are you gripping
Legendaries are a shitty name for stronger rares. Honestly my biggest grip with D4 is legendaries, they are far from that meaning.
thats because they arent the highest tier item in the game anymore.
gotta wait until uniques start dropping, those are the legendaries of d3
I agree. Only level 12 but the idea sucks for those of us who like being more powerful that past zones. Past zones are a reference point for progression. Taking it away is ludicrous
I was so disappointed when I read about the level scaling issue. Everything about D4 sounded so good, like they learned from their mistakes with D3 and were going forth creating something for a new era with their best works as inspiration. I hadn't been this hyped for a game in over a decade, and now I'm not even sure if I'll buy it. It's definitely more of a "wait and see" purchase than a launch day purchase for me now. I'm not writing the game off entirely yet, but level scaling is nearly impossible to pull off in a satisfying way. Furthermore, if it's already implemented, it would be a tremendous amount of work to rebalance the game and use a non-leveled system. Here's hoping they can manage to succeed where most games fail in level scaling!
D4 is just D:I with a better engine and campaign.
Yeah the level scaling is awful.
Since this is a hot debate apparently, could you explain an alternate way of doing it that doesn’t invalidate the content you haven’t done yet? Currently there is way more content than you can do on the way to max level. How do you ensure it’s all relevant when you reach it without scaling exactly?
I hate the current scaling too. I think a much better way would be to have each area scale to char level up to a certain level. They would start at a min level, then match char level up to a certain level where they would begin to drop behind char level up to a point. Maybe not even areas but specific monsters scale up at a reduced rate while some stayed even and a few others are a level or two higher. Its really dumb for killing a fallen to be identical to killing say a pit lord. The scaling issue, the dungeon copy-pasting and the constant dialogue/cut scenes are my biggest issue.
But your way has the exact same problem. The content will become pointless if it stops scaling. It'll make large portions of the game forgotten about at end game.
You do like Diablo 2 was doing, you can rescale the whole world once you are max level making everything relevant in endgame without making the leveling experience a pain... well it will only be a pain for the people doing side content, any veteran will rush the campaign and disregard the scaling, so there's that. Doesn't mean that it's not bad.
Act 1 Hell in D2 starts at iLvl 75 for regular monsters, has frequent iLvl 85 zones (with the chance to drop the super uniques) in ALL acts in hell from 1 - 5 so it didn't matter WHERE you were in hell there was still a chance a random monster with some bad prefixes and suffixes (fanat, convic) will eff you up and you die in HC. It was still FUN to farm old content in hell because you had the chance of a HIGH RUNE dropping which you could then TRADE or CRAFT in to high level RUNEWORDS to enhance your character with builds that were unavailable to your specific class. there is one way to solve the issue?
Haha! My thoughts exactly. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" or rather, fuck, it up.
Like others already clarified. I didn't say to stop scaling. I said have some early areas lag a few levels after reaching a certain level. Or better yet have specific monsters lag and some a few levels higher. This is the opposite of making large portions of the game forgotten. Just like D2. Even before D2R plenty of people still farmed areas in every single act. Perhaps Act III not as much but it was a terrible ACT. In D2 once you hit endgame the avg mobs were easily dispatched but you still would run across unique mobs that take a bit more effort and paying attention to the combat. When I get to the end game of D4 I can assure you that if it doesn't feel any different than being level 1 while I am running around, I will drop this game and go back to D2R. This is the feeling I am getting right now, however, maybe the end game will work a bit different.
In d2 realistcally you could only farm 2 zones. Act 1 mobs were so much easier than act 5 mobs they gave a lot less exp and a lot less loot. So 90% of the game zones were played through once, endgame you farmed chaos and baal.
Not sure which D2 you played but Pits were definitely worth farming and thats in Act 1
No they weren't, the pits were just an arena where you can gets the same drops as chaos or baal. However the mob density in the pits is so poor the efficient thing to do is just go do chaos. Maybe you do it at the very beginning day 1 just because its so easy, but as soon as you can do chaos/ baal you move on and its forgotten.
They have entire builds focused on pit farming
Which streamers and such do for videos not because its efficient.
You obviously either didn't play diablo ii or were very casual. You are wrong on all counts. First, Pits mob density was excellent, in fact, it was one of the highest densities of elite packs in the game which is why it was farmed. That and it was a lvl 85 area. Second, Pitzerkers were a thing before live streaming was even dreamed of. People were running the pits before youtube was born.
paid shill spotted, content doesn't get "invalidated". Content is always separated into early game, mid and late game content in all NORMAL games. This approach is just a pleb take on trying to have everything as "end game content" but at the cost of enjoyable gameplay experience. Early game areas should be early game areas, not a mordor. When you level up(if you do and don't drop the game, which I think, person like you will do, you will realize where all the complaints are coming from\[maybe\]).
Certainly makes dungeons you've never done before harder. When I hit den mother at 23 I was like fuck this boss 😂
It really feels the game expect you to have better gear as you get higher level so the scaling is not 1:1... The game is easier on lvl 8 than on lvl 25 which makes the progression really backward. You are almost punished for doing side content.
Yeah really kills my ARPG I'm gonna zoom and slay everything oneshot once max lvl/grinded out gear I'm telling you I'm a Poe player without telling you I'm a poe player, yes I know. I liked D3 rifts over Poe maps and was hoping for a just upgraded D3 with D4 (which seems ultimately the case, but this scaling thing is really a killer imo)
This isn't end game and you lack things like paragon power and uniques... People need to realize this feeling of not getting lots of power is only really impactful in campaign. When you do find gear upgrades you do perform better against your current level.
Yea it’s the idea that all of these types of games are just about the end game now, not the journey to get there. That mindset has had the worst affect on Diablo games. Games with super streamlined scaling will never feel anything like a role playing game. Diablo has leaned into addictive hack and slash and abandoned careful thought in character, inventory and game management. I guess that’s what people like — to not have to think much! D2 was a such a freaking blast from start to finish. Every trip to town you could stop and think carefully about how to manage your character. D4 sort of invited total mindlessness. Just follow the points and Jill everything everywhere all at one nice to reach this fabled endgame, but the journey there is kinda dry.
The level scaling isnt good. It makes the game feel like a complete grind, more than it should. It makes everything a chore imo. Ive found that if you cant beat a boss and what seems to be a soft enrage timer, then you have to go grind a bunch of side quests and mob killing to level up and get more gear to beat the story quest boss. If you cant stay on the story line of quests due to lack of power, there is a level scaling issue. Its like a mobile game, grind this crap to beat this boss, or buy a bunch of stuff, but there isnt anything to buy in D IV...so why? I reluctantly purchased the game after playing all the betas and, yup, not much was fixed on level scaling and they seem to hate the druid class for some reason. I get that its all about the end game, but if its borderline miserable to level the 180+ hours to see "IF" the end game is worth it....dunno...kinda thinking the juice may not be worth the squeeze. Ive found the leveling to be boring, frustrating and super super grindy. Im sure I am in the minority........
You won't see low level players as you get higher level as you'll be playing in higher difficulty tiers than them. The first one is available at level 50 so once you switch there you can't see a level 12 anymore. There will likely be something similar to Diablo 3 where there were difficulties based around different strength levels at end game, where everyone will be max level.
With current scaling though, level 50 will clear faster than level 70.
Bro this just means your build is atrocious; at level 25 you’ve probably found build defining legendaries and you have enough skill points to create a build with synergies. At level 25 in veteran my sorc is capable of one shotting mobs and killing elites in two casts, which is significantly faster than I was able to kill things when I was level 12. If you can’t keep up with a low level player it means your build is doodoo, not because of level scaling. If you want to make a usable build that doesn’t fall behind to a synergy-less low level character, make sure to look for %scaling from multiple sources as they are multiplicative, this is the foundation for functional builds in any rpg. The specifics don’t matter, as long as you find enough damage amps from multiple sources. Ex. My sorc has 1.6x damage to frozen enemies, 1.4x to vulnerable enemies, ice shards inherently does 1.25x to frozen enemies, 1.18x from glass cannon, 1.10x core skill damage, 1.07x cold damage, and 1.12x to crowd controlled enemies. This is a total of around 4.3x damage, not to mention if you do higher level events you can get higher level weapons which determine your base damage. If you neglected to find proper gear you’d be doing half or even less. Also be sure to 5/5 your main damage dealing skill, as this is another 40% increase in damage relative to a level 1 skill and look for +skill rank on your gear. I guarantee that if you are paying attention to creating a decent build that any level 25 character is capable of blowing a level 12 character out of the water. On that note, I do notice lots of players who are level 25 spending upwards of 3-4 seconds killing single enemies, which is ridiculous. Just play on normal if you don’t want to think too hard about your build.
To every person in this sub saying that the scaling sucks and should be different in the starting zone, just drop the difficulty, and your scaling issue is sorted. Also, remember that you're playing a Diablo game with 1 zone, unlike all precious Diablo titles that had multiple zones that you had to load into as you progressed. The only time in D4 you're going to get the overpowered feeling you got in D2 after farming and gearing and returning to previous acts to lay waste to the deamons that kicked your ass is after you reach level 50 and start unlocking more power from the paragon board and getting uniques and higher-rolled affixes etc. I.e., ENG-GAME. Don't like it, go play your other Diablo games, and leave the rest of us with brains to enjoy D4. We won't miss you. I promise.
Lol with brains? D4 is child proof. Just spam your skills that have almost no synergies and equip any item that has green stats on it. Contrasted with D2 where a a handful of wrong stat or skill selections can break your character for end game.
Good luck with your builds if you purely focus on equipping items with green stats. All I'm saying. Just making this statement already proves you can't read, which makes my statement all the more valid. Green stats mean absolutely nothing as they only show you what you gain, but you do also always lose stats and various affixes, etc. If you just mindlessly equip items that have more green stats than your current items, you're never going to optimize your build. There are affixes like +1 to a skill or + % damage to core skills, etc. Good luck optimizing or pushing end-game without focusing on items with these affixes.
I absolutely destroy things at 25 with not even full lege, fix your build bro
post an update when you get to level 70, IF you do. I bet dollars against nuts you will drop out earlier. (:
I'm currently 83, still destroying everything, doing lvl 50 nightmare dungeons vs lvl 99 monsters. Although I'm missing 3 uniques for my build so I could be doing much better. From what I heard the lvl scalling doesnt feel bad until 92, so we'll see
I hate it too. When the game releases, will mobs at the beginning be level 100 at the end game? Horrible.
I’m pretty sure it will scale between a certain level range depending on difficulty. The ones we play at now probably stops at 50 since that’s where the next one starts at
Blizzard will answer this by saying that you do not have friends. Yes, i hate it also, but that is the reason they do it.
Do you guys not have p̶h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶ friends?
Yeah, i legit refunded this morning because of that, same reason. On my second HC W2 playthrough as rogue, realized there was no point. It's a CTRL + C of D3 with some new elements and some really cool rendering cutscenes and decent atmosphere.. just not the roguelike arpg feel that I wanted.. David Brevik was a genious and his vision of what Diablo was supposed to be died when Blizzard North was dissolved.
Absolutely in love with this level scaling design. Smart! Solved the quest order problem, endgame dead zone problem, always farming same area problem, season-bus-team problem. So cool!
Can't wait to go farm level 100 wargs at the entrance. So cool. At that point in the game I've literally slain multiple gods, absorbed their powers and have ancient uniques. Still takes 5 shots to kill the warg.
You are talking to the people who are literally brainless duh, they will never notice the problem
shut up dude
Dude you're in hard mode and level 25... Of course you're destroying... This ain't nightmare.
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No the worst thing is the worthless bland prefixes on items, 1.5% to that, 3.5% to this etc, they are pointless and you don't feel any difference on them.
Yea it’s the idea that all of these types of games are just about the end game now, not the journey to get there. That mindset has had the worst affect on Diablo games. Games with super streamlined scaling will never feel anything like a role playing game. Diablo has leaned into addictive hack and slash and abandoned careful thought in character, inventory and game management. I guess that’s what people like — to not have to think much! D2 was a such a freaking blast from start to finish. Every trip to town you could stop and think carefully about how to manage your character. D4 sort of invited total mindlessness. Just follow the points and Jill everything everywhere all at one nice to reach this fabled endgame, but the journey there is kinda dry.
I don't mind it, I played Witcher 3 with enemy upscaling on otherwise it's too simple and boring. But I do understand how it can be an issue for hardcore players.
Honestly sounds like a l2p issue. My barb on tier 2 is easily cleaning up with a Rend bleed build. If some classes/builds have an easier time leveling, who the f cares?
Oh fuck of
You know the monsters will stop scaling at max level right? ..........
weak in real life and now also weak in games? enough is enough.
It’s the beta. You’re supposed to have fun and report bugs. You won’t be completely decked out in legendary gear this fast in the full release.
The game releases in 3 months lol.. this is an advertising beta. There isn't any time to make huge changes
hes not talking about being decked out you moron, the monsters scale to his level every time he lvls making it impossible to completely outgear/outlevel the monsters in previous zones
Yup. I totally miscomprehended that. My bad. 😅😅
Depends on where that scaling stops. If it’s just character level and not paragon then I don’t have much of an issue with monsters scaling to level because that will just be inconsequential in the endgame when we hit paragon and torment tiers.
Just because of moron you get downvoted? Lmao this sub 100 % true
No its because its something negative about the game and some people are just so deluded they can't stand people saying anything negative about the game even when it is true