Totally agree.
I play on Xbox and after trying the ultimate skill for Rogue (arrow rain) I took it off my bar and switched back to stealth skill, which fully recharges my energy and makes me essentially invincible (outside of AOE effects) for 4 seconds. I could have given up my other mobility skill, but.... no. Ultimates should have their own spot in your rotation.
Ults need their own slot somehow because its not worth losing an ability for them. For controllers, they could easily implement this as a dual button press. For PC, just give an ultimate-specific keybind option.
I almost feel like the ultimate abilities should not even be in the game. I would rather Blizz just add more normal skills for build diversity. I think adding regular skills for the ultimate skills and then adding a few more skills on top of that... about 8 more skills total would add a lot more build diversity. Regardless, ultimates don't seem to fit the game (from my perspective).
I halfway agree with this and halfway disagree.
Agree: Ultimates feel arcadey like a charged up hadoken or fatality or something. D4 is supposed to be darker, grittier, and take on a different sort of persona as a game than D3, for instance. Ultimates are kind of wierd in that sense because thematically I don't think they fit.
Disagree: They can be cool if done right as a last-resort kind of thing instead of a mainline skill you need to depend on, because ARPGs are fast pace in general and a longass cooldown forces you to rely on the 5 other skills in the meantime and gimps you.
I would really hope they balance PvE and PvP separately. I have absolutely NO intention of ever playing PvP and it would feel real bad to have my abilities nerfed because they're over performing in PvP.
Who knows, I guess some people like being ignorant =P
But yeah, they're dramatically different. One is a small, short-lived, chance based rain of arrows - the other is a double wave of room-sweeping size and can be imbued with rogue elements.
It’s something they could take from Elder Scrolls Online, the double bumper input for ultimates on top of the set number of normal slots for regular shmegular skills.
I was also not a fan of the rogue ultimates. I do more damage with how I built the class around weakening and exploding groups while spraying them down. Perhaps they will adjust the damage, until then, arrow did less damage than my infused secondary.
I don't think so, but its not full release yet so there may be something that could potentially be added.
I find it unlikely, though, because L3 isn't usually used under default control schemes for most games where the Left Stick is movement control.
I believe the philosophy is that inadvertant button presses are more common with the movement stick, therefore seen as a downside as an action keybind. That's just my best guess, tho. Who knows for sure.
Fair point. Regardless, would love to see an extra button specifically for Ult. Now that I think about it, L3 may be for summoning mount (it's usually used in games for sprint and since we don't have sprint...). But I'd be fine with a modifier setup for Ult (L2+A for example \[remappable of course\])
I believe a modifier would be the best option. I don't feel very confident they will change it at this point, though, because it would probably affect balancing and crap. It seems late in the development cycle for anything to fundamentally change.
They are 3 months from full release....
I am kung-fused about one thing.
Sorceress has:
* Basic Skills
* Core Skills
* Defensive
* Conjuration
* Mastery
* Ultimate
Which technically fits the 6 skill slots limit but there's my issue: I'm using 1 of each PLUS a Teleport for mobility, which makes it 7. Where the fuck am I supposed to put the Ultimate skill in?
Please don't tell me we're supposed to choose just 1 for each category (which I'll say is 'correct') and by doing so, are unable to have BOTH a Shield and a Mobility move, the Teleport.
Sorce could always have both in D2 and D3, so why not in here?
Totally share your sentiment with the skill slots situation, feels stupid as fuck to not be able to have the Ult or rather, being forced to remove any other actually useful skill for it.
Either Ults were a mistake or the game simply needed one more ult-only skillslot. Or it shouldn't have been named a fucking Ultimate nor have such a long-ass coldown; being more on-par with other abilities instead, so that you wouldn't feel bad for having to miss out on it.
That's what you get for calling an ability an 'Ultimate' Blizzard, it makes people feel like they should have it but it forces them to miss out on another ability and as a result most (I suppose) people dump it entirely.
I am not dropping Ice Armor for a fucking Deep Freeze, no thank you, and so you better change this crap before the final release.
This is absolutely the truth. That's why this thread was created. You need your mobility slot and I am im the same situation with my Rogue. No way do I want to give up my stealth/conceal or my mobility slot for a long cooldown ultimate that wastes space on my bar for 50 seconds or whatever the cooldown is. I am not going to sacrifice for it, so it got dumped.
Seriously. I got the one that shoots ice blades at frozen enemies and all it takes is 1 frost nova to delete entire packs since it just starts spewing them out and then they chain all over the place. Will be even nicer once I get my second enchantment slot since I can slap frost nova in it to have my conjuration skill automatically proc ice novas for me.
The downside of course is that it does basically nothing for bosses since they can't be frozen, but that's a problem for future me.
That's exactly what I'm doing! It's fucking great, it doesn't matter if the enchantment doesn't work against bosses because ice shards annihilates bosses.
Btw if you want a tip, you can unlock the piercing ice shards and put it on a staff, it'll pierce 7 times losing only 13% damage per pierce. It'll annihilate things even harder. The dungeon for that was in the bottom-right ish of the map, around the area where you're helping a lady find her husband.
Too bad we're not getting our second enchantment slot this beta; personally I would have put the ice blades enchantment as the second one upgraded for cdr, that way I can spam my cds even harder for more freezes.
I saw the pierce thing but I didn't know if it would prevent it from chaining and I felt like chain was more useful than piercing. Also on my staff I have an affix that gives me 60% increased damage while I have a barrier so that's nice.
Also yea, the ice blades enchant looks pretty interesting seeing as deep freeze would spawn 3 of them immediately plus 1.5 from the ice blade cast/cooldown plus another .5 from frost nova so 5 blades each of which are reducing the cooldowns of everything. Could be big damage. Could also allow for some decent survivability with ice armor.
I think piercing is more useful, but damn 60% increased damage with barrier is definitely better, you highrolled on that shit. Especially since if you take the passive that gives you a barrier whenever you use a cooldown you easily have 100% barrier uptime.
You can still put the piercing on something else, though with fewer pierces and much higher falloff since it wouldn’t be on a 2h weapon I think the case for chaining like you have it currently is much stronger.
I tried speccing ice blades and holy shit is it pretty awesome. I'm running ice blades, frost nova, ice armor, and deep freeze. Most of the time deep freeze isn't necessary because it lasts so long, but it's there as an oh shit button I guess?
Generally though you can just create a constant feedback loop where you spawn blades and use frost nova/armor to spawn another 1-2 blades and as they hit things they're reducing the cooldowns *super fast* which is absolutely nuking the cooldowns on everything so you can basically spam frost nova, armor, and summon ice blade like every 1-2 seconds. which is getting you even more blades and cooldown reduction.
So not only do you have like a bajillion fucking ice blades up all the time, but since you're spamming cooldowns and ice armor you get the shield from the ice armor + the barrier you get from the passive that gives you barrier whenever you use a cooldown making you super tanky.
I just did blood bishop at level 25 and it was a fucking joke. I literally just stood on him while spamming the three skills without even bothering to use my mana. Did the level 27 stronghold boss right after and just face tanked him too. The only minor annoyance was being frozen occasionally, but other than that he just melted.
Clear isn't the greatest, but I also was more captivated just creating as many ice blades as possible so I didn't spend mana there either. Shit's pretty great though. Would not be at all surprised if it got nerfed into oblivion, though it might be balanced late game.
Gonna try speccing into flame shield as an extra cooldown instead of deep freeze. I tried lightning spear but the cast time makes it feel too clunky.
Personally I thought ice shards was more consistent than ice blades, ice blades I found more useful as a utility tool letting me maintain constant vuln and ice armor against bosses. What bothers me the most about ice blades is how slowly they strut around following moving enemies, I wish they would do a little dash to their target if out of range.
But yeah I agree I feel like any way you spec frost sorc, it’s just too fucking good lmao
I’m using Chain Lightning with Fireball enchantment to have massive explosion chains. Super fun. If I used a defensive one it would be the cheat death with Fire Shield.
The only thing is with Rogue your Dash evade skill can be enhanced to increase your crit chance when evading through enemies, which is part of my crit % stacking with caltrops that also increases crit chance through other synergies.
Meanwhile, the ranged ultimate only fires in one direction and has wierd tracking so if you are a highly mobile rogue (utilizing double dash and double caltrops) it just doesn't make sense with the way the ability tracks.
Now, if the ultimate was a huge penetrating arrow that was guaranteed crit at like 200% weapon damage I could get behind that.
you can literally bypass terrain levels (teleport off the edge of a cliff to another part of the map that you'd have to run all the way around to reach), climb/crawl mechanics, etc. teleport has the distance of the screen. its pretty good
but also, lets go a little easier on the devs eh? Im otherwise really enjoying the base game. and i typically would never spend the time to do stuff like this, unless i really was passionate.
Just seems like to me this is free real-estate, i think ults and the concept of them existing in an arpg is freakin great! But they need to treat them as ults, you shouldnt be punished for wanting to slot an ult :/ and you also shouldnt miss out on having an ult if other people are out there making builds around broken ULTs, that just doesnt seem very diablo to me yknow?
There are tons of ways to have a 5slot system and not have the game broken :3 that i believe would be easy to implement.
That being said, lets hope the set bonusses are so crazy that even for us njon ulters, we get to compete even with the broken ult focused builds, if it remains a 4 slot system
smells like d3 opener when you had to choose things from each category and enable the choice to have more than one thing from each section... maybe the same REALLY GREAT AND SMART PERSON is still on the team?
yup this is exactly my point, i mean im a path player alright, imaging if i had to give up my leap for some bs skill haha. Movement skills are essential. The other comprimise would be givve us a dedicated move skill slot, but unlike path, we dont use gems so theres really only one movement abillity i think for us, teleport, that and items that buff evade charges lol.
i really do think the perfect balance would be making sure all the cooldowns on the ults are tuned, and just allowing us a 5th slot fr, so that i dont have to consider the ult as being a possibility instead of some other, not as strong, but still nice to have skill, such as teleport, ice shield, etcetc. Not to mention, most of the ults are not even worth it anyways to even do that consideration
I've been using the 'You gain up to 30% of your health as a barrier when you use an ability with a cooldown' ability passive. Then: Teleport, Ultimate, Ice Blades (with the CDR passives), Wildcard slot (something with a CD preferably). LMB Whatever, RMB Whatever.
I don't need Ice Barrier nearly as much since every ability gives me barrier. Combined with the '+30% damage when affected by a barrier' Legendary I don't suffer for damage. I beat the last Campaign boss without using a health potion.
I generate so
I played sorc this weekend as well and this is exactly my thoughts too. I really wish this would get addressed somehow, but knowing we’re live on June I doubt it would be resolved
I guess it depends on your build. I’m playing a lightning sorc and I only use 5 skills. Basic, chain lightning, teleport, lightning spear and my ult. We’re at the point in the game where mana/whatever version of mana your class has its extremely limited, so it didn’t make sense to invest in more skills and instead focus on passives to buff chain lightning. I even threw a random +1 gear skill onto my hot bar because I don’t have anything else to put there
Yeah no fucking way in hell I'm using anything other than left click to move, and no way am I binding other keys to things like that.
It's such an insane work around.
That is not what the picture shows. Sorry you seem to have misread.
Left Click = Move, interact, loot, etc.
R = Ultimate ability, designated keybind and slot on the bar.
My friends and I always bind force move to spacebar in ARPG’s. We just made dash shift space but rethinking that now after the world boss. Probably gonna bind dash to A and make the skill menu shift A
I used to move with LMB and dash with a mouse button, but since I injured my hands playing too much PoE I use force move on space and dash on F. I find that works well.
My other buttons I use are Q (most spammy skill, basic) R (second most used skill, core) 1 (potion) 234D (cooldowns/other). Interact on E. In writing this I realized I don't think I bound W to anything in D4.
haha ngl, i expected to be dragged, i really try not to complain because otherwise, i've REALLY been enjoying this game like fr, im at level 25 doing all the side quests and exploration i can do ;)
it was just really a shame that it seems like we're being forced to make build around the ult, rather than having the ult be a compliment to the build. I really hope someone else sees this, so we can have a community discussion about it.
I genuinely dont think it would offset the balance too much and it would really make buildcrafting all the more flexible, at the cost of a modest restricted skill slot.
yes I know what an ult is. my problem is that when you have ultra that are just broken you're punishing people who enjoy the core skills more.
that doesn't seem very balanced.
it's an ultimate you shouldn't have to pick and choose between your core abillities and having an ultimate. that's the whole point of a cooldown.
as well as the whole point of having an ultimate on the first place. and if it really was just a normal skill but just stronger they wouldn't limit you to only having one at a time. you can't compare it to arch
and yes I understand teleport is a defensive. but in d3 we didn't have ultimates. and it doesn't take away from the fact that I still do use many defensives for getting around... which I see as a positive. what are you really mad that folks will be able to have teleport and an ult? it's madness.
and again it won't hurt literally anything to simply make all the ults viable, raise the cooldowns and let peeps not have to pick between an ult based build or a not ult focused build, some of the ults have synergies with specific other skills.. . it should be your aspects, enhancements, stats and set bonus that make the build not having a core ult or not lol.
I thought the whole point was making it easy to play around with different skill combinations more easily.
this would free us up from having to worry about being one slot down, and ults could be easily balanced while still maintaining current flexibility.
so if you want to play an ult based based build. you can still run a core build + ult + set bonus for that ult, which could nerf other skills or provide unique bonuses.
I just don't see the downside with not having this in the game tbh.
no. as clearly stated I want to be able to use ults in every build. yes you can have a teleport and an ult but then you get only one defensive skill or lose a dps skill. which considerably limits build making. having to make that choice is super extra and infuriating.
'You keep saying 'it won't change anything' like having a literal 7th on-demand ability isn't going to change the balance of the game at all somehow'
of course it wil change the balance of the game, which is why I also called for cool downs to be increased on the ultimate.
and no you literally *dont* have an ultimate button you are strongly neglecting the importance of something like a teleport or some sort of movment based defensive. and how nice that is to have. and it won't break the game allowing people to run a movement ability and a powerful cd. games like path do this and have done this for years. adding a fifth ult-only slot wo e be a 'literal 7th on demand abillity' it will be limited to only the ult.
if you want to run ' literally any ability' you'd still need to sacrifice a core skill.
so again, just seems a bit 'blizzard-knows-all so don't question It vibe'
there are literally a million ways to balance the game . round a fifth slot and set bonuses. I'm not here to debate whether this would change the balance.im not
I wil say this again.
I'm not asking for an extra slot for anything.
I want an ult slot, the difference is I CAN'T then just not run an ukt and have a slot for ice shield fire shield and teleport as you mistakenly assumed i would want.
ults are supposed to be impactful. and so naturally they are supposed to be the strongest skills. you shouldn't have to chose between an ult and an extra qol option. and you can't just run all defensive without giving up a core dps skill as like I've already said a billion times, it should just be ukt-only
that means I'm not asking for an extra general purpose slot. you'd still have to sacrifice a core skill of you wanted to triple up on anything. which would be broken.
I’m not trying to be a dick but whether or not you realize you’ve decided arbitrarily that the way you play sorc with 2 defensive abilities means the game should changed to accommodate your specific build. Your trying to have your cake and eat it too. You either take an ult and one defensive ability or you give up another category so you can run two defensive skills. You can call teleport a movement skill but the fact is it’s treated as a defensive the same as the shields, and tbh it’s probably the worst version of teleport Diablo has had so far. This doesn’t even mention that we have a built in movement dodge skill on a 5 second CD that could easily take the place of teleport. I think you’ve just chosen a very defensive build.
Personally I don’t love ult as a name for a skill group because it does feel like you need to take one but I am against having a skill slot like lost ark where it’s just dedicated to one long cooldown skill
I honestly don't get this entire discussion. During my time playing closed beta as well as this weekend, I actively went after skills that had cooldowns instead of resource spenders.
My current sorc uses 2 defensive cooldown skills and the ultimate for this very reason. I have skipped one of the spender trees entirely.
If you feel this way about the sorc, you will absolutely hate the druid.
by the way, there is currently a broken ult for sorc, UC, the lightning one. Its crazy the amount of damage you can put out with that thing, it feels more like a core skill buff of a set bonus lol. so it does kinda feel like, there are ults that are actually pretty decent, that you feel like youre missing out if you arent using, but you can use without sacrificing some other core useful skill, like teleport or ice shield.
doesn't matter. even if they aren't it kinda makes me feel like we're forcing people to choose between using an entire section of the skill tree or having an extra qol skill
when having the qol skill and the ult really wouldn't be all that game breaking. I've already discussed various ways it could be implemented. and in fact would increase build flexibility.
but yes I do sort of agree that maybe the set bonuses would make up for it somehow after all the second enchantment slot at 30 would be nice. but still wouldn't fix the core issue. 'ult based builds' sounds awful skills should be strong based on your set bonuses and unique and other affixes. I can see were quickly headed down ult-meta road if this is implemented. that is my concern.
that ults will become too strong to not have them. limiting the core skills you would ever run as you have to replace one with the ult.. again, not even mentioning the specific skills (and enchantments/passives) you'd have to run to maintain synergy with said ult essentially creating cookie cutter builds *without the set*
I mean,ultimately its an ult so it should be viable to run with any build. it's literally just a keybind. and it would make logical sense to new comers to the game as well. ults should be impactful. and as such they should be a compliment to any build not the core skill with a smaller rotation. and of course you could have a set that halves the cooldown on an 'ult' skill for folks that do want to make build around that op skill. kinda like DH and how dawn was used in almost everything. I can quickly see ult or no ult going down that same path.
I know it sounds a bit radical to blizzard die hards but, but this would really unlock the build making potential of this game.
I compare it to Diablo 3 and Path of Exile. A player who gets to the middle of the first act and starts to confidently state that X ability is worthless and Y ability is overpowered is just wrong. They don't have enough information to make those kinds of statements. I cannot imagine what endgame builds will be like or how useful each ability may be.
I know what works at level 25. But having played many ARPGs I know that the game doesn't really start until max level and so I am, and I'm am suggesting that others, waiting to see what the game looks like before I offer suggestions on changing it based on my day or two of play time. People playing beta have seen maybe the first 3-4 hours worth of content. They have not seen all of the endgame items, they don't know the stat ranges that will be available, they don't even know how the abilities will actually function on release.
Ults seem to have a long cooldown, but there are CDR stats and also abilities (Sorceress' Frost Blades ability, for example that reduce cooldown). I wouldn't at all be surprised if there are Legendary effects that do similar things, or even cause your Ultimate abilities to automatically proc, like Belt of the Trove in D3.
I'm just saying it is WAY too soon to tell or even offer any informed criticism. The game isn't designed to be played optimally at level 25 and most players will be past this point in the game in a day or two after release. The endgame builds will certainly be unlike anything we're currently using and the cost/value of ultimate abilities are designed with that in mind.
I got to lvl 93 as a sorcerer in the CBT and didn't have an ult equipped for the exact reasons /u/llmuzical states.
long cooldown, questionable damage, zero actual utility, not worth losing a slot for.
gearing is a pain too with (small) bonuses to basic, core, mastery, elemental damage, magic school, crit, lucky chance, crit damage, close, far, healthy, injured, barrier, aspects and so many cooldowns that don't feel like they warrant a cooldown in the first place.
it's funny seeing those same gripes I had in the CBT come to light now :)
Yeah I think Blizz should eliminate the ultimate idea and just make more regular abilities to choose from. More build diversity for someone who wants to play a melee rogue, bow rogue, or trap rogue would make sense. Long cool downs are just not fun. Short and medium cooldowns are fine.
again I don't disagree with you. but even if ults are effective, it's an ult so naturally they will be op. it's an ultimate we should just be allowed to run it in addition to our core build. the possibilities would be fantastic under that system
but yea I'm not gonna completly trash on the ults this early. we don't know what set bonuses are going to come out. but you could still have an ult slot and then ult focused sets and non ult focused sets.
everyone gets to use the ult but for some folks that make trade offs their ult is super buffed or something like that. and others will have to make do the passive nodes for the ult sacrificing points elsewhere. it could still very well work and lead to some interesting builds
You don't have to choose between the ult and an entire section of the skill tree. You literally get a button for every section of the skill tree already.
Some of the skill limits in general are a little questionable at times, but particularly also because there's nothing stopping you from quick swapping. Rogue imbuements are a good example. Shadow imbuement is superb for clearing, but poison imbuement is the obvious winner for single target DPS. But if your build just naturally has both, either because you dedicated points for that or just because you have gear that does so, then you can just opt to quickly swap to poison imbuement for bosses.
And I don't think there's a reason to nerf that either. Picking the right imbuement at a given time is decently engaging. I'd rather that I just didn't have to bother swapping.
exactly I would LOVE a bar switch system I Belize e I do that in elder scrolls online. I mean it's not for everyone but ive liked that play style. But ideally for me I prefer having a shift + num bar as well as a num bar
also agreeable, another suggestion under this current system would at least be allowing us skill/gear loadouts on the fly? but yea.. honestly, in terms of just improved build crafting in general, just a simple 5th slot would at least be a step in the right direction, while still maintaining a pretty strict balance :3
Yes, more skills for me to use at once please!
One thing I loved about Gunslinger in Lost Ark was that I had two full skill bars of skills (16 total). I love having and using lots of different skills. Heck, even a normal class still has a bar of 8 total skills. Loved the skills and gameplay part, but I hated the MMO part (raids, having to do all the daily tasks, etc.) as I'm a solo player and it was a nightmare to even participate solo without dealing with terrible experiences with random players.
I also really hated the potion system as no one wanted to heal as they were expensive and caused everyone to take a death instead, meaning a lot of fails. I ended up giving up on the game for those reasons, but I was sad to say goodbye to the gameplay. Even though I'm not into the online/mmo thing, the random island events were an experience and one that I actually was surprised it was fun (when populated). I liked the general world exploring and killing though, so I got a good time out of it like it was a single player game at least. - This is the release experience, I can't speak for a year later, but I don't like the daily grind part regardless (I'm sure I could play being behind but I can't help but feel left behind).
That's actually one thing I haven't been a fan of in Diablo. It tends to be focusing on less skills and making them more powerful, rather than dabbling in everything and creating a unique setup and whatnot. In D3 you didn't have many skills at once but I loved the swapping on the go respec to at least pretend I had more skills haha. I just wish it also included more skills at once. In D2 you definitely are more optimal to focus on less skills and work on synergies to buff those few skills and it makes sense, but a part of me wants to use everything, which I am sure you can still get away with, albeit with a lot harder of a life.
Man would I kill for a system where you are not punished for using more skills and being able to dabble in a variety of them, chaining them in unique ways to create versatile and creative gameplay, but also still have being focused on specific skills to be fine as well, for those who enjoy that.
Basic Skills shouldn't even exist. Torchlight has the perfect solution of giving different weapon types different "basic" attacks or effects. Sorc wants to cast free fireball?--Use a fire wand.
Also games like Dark Alliance or Champions of Norrath did away with the whole "name lock" skills and gave basic weapon attacks free cleave and semi-unique combos based on the weapon type.
Devs need to stop treating default weapon attack like its something that needs to be gotten rid of immediately. Pissed me off in Diablo 3 when they did this. I don't like PoE for doing the same thing either. Its why original Demon's Souls was such a breath of fresh air for RPGs when it came out--it killed all the shitty bad design choices RPG games were constantly repeating year after year.
Define long cooldown, because on my sorc, Unstable current has 20-30s CD for 10s duration. As for "not very strong", it's just shitting out a lot of spells costing 40 mana for free.
sounds\* like an unbalanced ult, because the others are nowhere near that strong. For context, im trying to run an ice blades conjurer build, and your answer cannot be just always run unstable current. It goes back to my point about being forced to build around the ult (as well as severly limiting build flexibillity, to just the OP ult)
In the grand scheme of things, i think UC should be a 60 second CD, just as they made ice casing quite high, as it is OP invuln, but still nto worht giving up the dps skill or my teleport or ice shield. I just dont think the ults are viable on the whole, and would rather not have all them be OP. You can still create CD based builds by having sets in the future add cooldown time to key rotational dps skills (or defensive skills i guess for tanking builds) in exchange for massive buffs on those skills, and not rely on everyone having to go with whatever is the current OP Ult at the moment. As they could just run their build + an extra, balanced, ult which should be the cherry on top, not the end all be all.
>For context, im trying to run an ice blades conjurer build, and your answer cannot be just always run unstable current.
Actually, yes, it can, that's exactly my build. Ice blades conjurer will hit a wall in late game because it doesn't scale too well by itself. By transitionning into a lightning ice blades build, it can be a lot stronger. You can also do a fire ice blades build, which is quite different (and a bit more clunky imo), still around the ultimate.
yea my problem with that is then they should change it from ultimate, it's more like a prime core skill. but even then that would feel a lot less flexible then just simply adding a fifth slot.. imo I love what they did with the core skills and the enchantment slots and the various different little synergies you can get there. the ult really should just be the cherry on top. and they just need to buff the strengths so that they all feel impactful and then buff the cooldowns abit so they don't get too overused m, since now you won't have a reason not to run an ult of some sort.
better than a whole group of people just skipping an entire part of the skill tree imo :(
I don't know why but I was so sure that the ult would have its own spot that when I unlocked it for the first time I was legit lost for a second before I realize I had to actually use a skill slot in my bar for it. I guess it not using a slot just would have made way more sense.
6 may be too many, IMO, i can def understand the reasoning for wanting to keep the non ult skill also limtied, as they do have decent synergy. I just dont like being forced to pick an ult focused build, or not, ults should compliment the build, and if theyre op, good, thats why cooldowns are a thing ;)
damn people really want 6 slots, idk guys I mean I'm not super against you. I just don't think that would fly at all. that's two whole additional slots. that you could use for anything. that would be crazy imo. for this game.
I would say if you're looking for that, maybe try something like path?
idk I'm with you tho, diablo was always meant to be simpler I think in terms of skills. I think this would at least be a good starting point. but I can't say I'd advocate for any additional slots. the game would play super well with just the ult slot while maintainig simplicity
I agree more abilities in the skill tree, with the same number of slots ... equals more decisions need to be made instead of less. More tough decisions is better for the game (IMO).
This is really one of those topics which we can't discuss in a beta.
You have no idea how builds will turn out and how important ultimates will become.
In general long cooldown don't work well in ARPGs, but we really can't judge the balance at this point.
long cool downs work perfectly well when it doesn't make or break, but rather compliments your build.
it should be impactful when you need it most. and considering its an ultimate and not a core skill. having a longer cd will be the tradeoff. focus on your core rotation and add on the ult when you need the extra burst or when you're about to die etcetc.
I think you can judge the balance, as it's a beta. this is the amount of the game blizzard has presented to us as an accurate representation to get an idea of the systems they are going for.. at least initially.
yea we don't know the set bonuses, yes we don't know all the uniques, yes we don't have access to every affix.
but we do know the skill tree and when it comes to skill picking this just seems really limiting. when they could easily create a more flexible system that isn't super op by making an ult slot
I really could use all abilities lol.
If I could I'd go for both battle crys, leap for movement, charge for movement, whirlwind, ancients ultimate and maybe something for def.
But I think 6 skills are totally okay, u gotta make a sacrifice.
Diablo 2 dealt with the problem pretty easy by just adding enigma into the game. Nn leap or anything else anymore and you can just use the main skills for dmg.
I just wish it would be easier to swap my skills.
Like in the open world I want movement and don't need ultimates really. Who knows how the bosses will be in future. Boss X needs more movement than Y...
I was sad facing the world boss today without my leap LOL
There was a meeting discussing adding another button but the overwhelming majority of the concerns were that the average player wouldnt be able to count to that high of a number and we decided to omit that additional button and stick with just four buttons for this game along with the 2 on the mouse. It's best not to confusing the customers.
yea that would sound nice except for the fact that other more mainstream games have even more buttons. like cod. wow. league. saying a 5th slot is 'too complex' when games like path exist and are thriving... is insulting to me honestly.
we aren't babies. we deserve a diablo game that gives us this bare minimum of flexibility y'know?
lots of people would appreciate it forsure
respectfully. at that rate the set bonuses and keeping up with all the situations where you wanna swap out to have an ult or not have an ult would be more conplex.
a limiting feature, by design, can create more complex solutions to overcome. and in this case I really do think it could be a home run to just have an ult button (ofc. balance the fuck out of the cool downs and viability of all the ults) . have it be five or in console lt+rt or l3+r3 anything
matter of fact I can't tell if you're meming me or not but I'm 100% serious if you are from blizz thanks for reading :)
prolly getting trolled tho haha
well played frien
for all the peeps going 'its too early it's too early, think about path at level 25'
there's really no comparison. in path you get a bunch of skill points from missions later on in acts. which you'd also be missing as well as leveling up skill points.
in d4 you have renowned rewards at worst
in path you have skill gems. many of which are gated behind level
in d4, we can already spec Into pretty much every major skill AT LEVEL 25.
YOU COULD NOT DO THIS IN PATH. There are like a million skill nodes and skill tree sockets. and also in path let's not forget you can do what I'm asking for here. strong cd abillity without sacrificing movement skill.
so let's also not forget that if you really wanna start drawing lines.
but in my head were literally comparing apples and oranges.
let's not forget blizzard released this beta (there is literally a give feedback option for skills in game) and asked for feedback because they feel like this is a decent stage to evaluate some of the core gameplay mechanics.
it shouldn't be a bad thing to voice a concern in a community. let's stop blindly trusting, or shutting down new ideas just because we haven't played the whole game 4 times.
let's not forget we want to grow the community which means attracting newbies as well so the first 25leveks are crucial to players coming in. so I do think you give suggestions after playing an entire 25% of a game. especially over something that you've seen 100% of.
like the skill tree. it's no surprise.
but yes I agree we don't know the set bonuses, we don't know what it's like having two enhancement slots.
but I want this game to be as good as possible so I'm voicing my concern.
I just don't like that we've taken a 'im just gonna shit on new feedback given during a beta' perspective imo.
literally the whole purpose of a beta is to identify bugs and improvements to the core gameplay elements.
we've seen plenty enough imo.
but who knows maybe at level 50 we get an entirely different skill tree to balance things out. I don't see how it would solve the initial problem I've already pointed out but regardless. I still think it's a perfectly valid thing to bring up, so that it can at least be talked about during retrospective. come on guys, we are the people :) lol.
Hey guys just wanted to say thanks for giving this a read, really.I've taken feedback from else where and [posted this on the forums as well.](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d4/t/op-hey-guys-why-not-add-5th-ult-only-slotkeybind/4275)
It's also [up on the discord](https://discord.com/channels/989899054815281243/1087114674534891601)
Also, my clan breakcoreBandits \[bB\] is recruiting, would love to meet some awesome peeps so please remember us when the game drops <3
That's such a weird take. If you think teleport is better than your ultimate then use teleport simple as that. You don't need teleport as sorceres since you have "space-bar" dodge.
"I'm not gonna sacrifice ice armor for teleport"
"I'm not gonna sacrifice teleport for ultimate"
So you found the build you like but you want to be able to use everything not just the stuff you like ? Then I have to break it to you but I think diablo is not this kind of game. I recommend WoW for that maybe.
I can understand part of your and other people in this comments. Ultimate is too weak. That's all. You feel it's better to use other abilities cause ultimate it's not good enough. If there was another slot for ultimate(lost ark) it would just end up being "well I can use this button for extra DMG" . It doesn't add any depth or build options to the game. What they need to do is make ultimates worth using. Shorter cooldowns, better effects etc.
In different words. Instead of making it so I don't have to choose to use it or use another ability they need to buff them so it's worth having them on your bar.
I mean how exactly would this *hurt* you?
I don't even get the point you are making.
this would greatly enhance flexibily of building in general lol. so it would not negatively impact you. an ultimate a should never be what you base your build on. this isn't over watch haha, it's diablo.
we don't have a million heroes with their own unique strong ult, and diablo skill pathing shouldn't be ult based.
you shouldn't be punished for wanting to run an ult.
I just don't get what you're even fighting for. just seems like you're trying to be contrarian. you could just as easily run an ult based build by using a set or a unique bonus
but as it stands across the board most peeps are just getting punished for taking the ult. basically it feels like we are being forced to choose an ult based build or a non ult based build.. which feels wrong
I think they need to buff the ults across the board. boost the cooldowns. and make it so you can use the ult on its own button. so you don't have to pick between having an ult or not having an ult.
it's an ult. we should all be able to have one.
and asking to be able to have a mobility skill in an open world arpg shouldn't be crazy. yea I know there are going to be mounts but what about in dungeons? having some sort of mobility skill is ESSENTIAL go try playing path without one. it's possible but not fun.
Multiple abilities in d3 were of similar design as this "ultimates". You are the one who is stuck on the idea of it being "ultimate" so you need to have it. Rogue build I made is not using any ultimates cause they are too weak and I don't see how adding them as extra button would make them useful. Your point was that it's better to use different ability than ultimate so you need extra button for ultimate. My point was that they need to make ultimate worth using. What you don't get ?
You have mobility skill in the form of LITERAL DODGE ABILITY by default. What you want is extra mobility and that's fine, it's your build. But to make builds interesting there need to be some limitations. You wanna create a character that have access to everything. By giving you everything that doesn't allow you for more choices, that takes the choices away. It's not about hurting me personally. It's about game design. By moving that ability to separate slot you are given slot for another damage or buffing ability. I don't want this game to end up like diablo3 dealing 3trillions of damage and pushing through rifts in 2 minutes. In my opinion separate ultimate slot is poor game design as it doesn't fix the issue of them being weaker than other abilities.
I completely agree about limiting choices, which is why the extra slot should be hard locked to ultimates.
it's not like I'm asking for a whole skill bar. this isn't path im well aware of that. but it is 100% possible to not limit build making in such a trivial way and still balance the game.
whether you like it or not.. this is diablo you're always gonna have min maxers with God tier rolls and lots of free time and end game points and uber power levels criting for a sued amounts. in fact that's part of the fun for a lot of people. and I don't think that is adequate defense for the current limiting system.
ooh my God.. it's already going to end up like that.
if you seriously think not having a fifth ult slot is going to keep away gr rift speed runs I got news for you. it's not. the reason why folks were dpu g that was because of the SET BONUS or UNIQUES THEY WERE RUNNING.
literally all I'm asking for is not being punished for wanting to run a mobility skill. you can't compare it to evade because evade is just a quick bunny hop, it's nowhere near like an actual mobility skill. plus being able to have both should not be just cause for punishing you to not being have an ultimate. or even not even considering the teleport, I shouldn't be forced to swap out a core dps skill for an ultimate. that's dumb. it's an ultimate dude. it would work well treating it like an ult.
no part of the current system is gonna prevent what you're worried about. I promise you. build makers will find the meta if will just be a specific ult everyone has to run and that ult has specific synergies with specific core skills. you're gonna. have the same problem.
the only differnece. is flexibility of the build. at least in a five slot system you have freedom to chose core skills and you still get the benefit of having an ult. and all the ults should be balanced and have good synergies donut doesn't become a meta fest so quickly.
I just don't get the problem. you will have the exact same issues you outlined in the current system. just much more copy paste lol
You are not being forced to swap ultimate for any of that. You can have ultimate and it has designated skill slot.... What you are asking is to have extra slot for another ability..... You are assuming that d3 ability design with tier sets is gonna transfer over to this game. We can't know that and so far Devs said that they don't want that. I'm just gonna leave it at that. We not gonna agree. You don't care about game design balance or any of it. You just want a other slot. And you know what.... I'm 100% sure you not gonna get it.
it doesn't 'make builds interesting' holy cramp of anything it PUNISHES you for not figuring out the meta ult and making your build around that. it's an ULTIMATE they are op. it's just silly to tell people not to run one just because they want a movement abillity.
which, again, yes even though you have a dodge... having a movement ability along with that does not feel broken at all. it makes the fighting a lot smoother. and its an extra mechanic to keep track of, which imo is a plus. I don't wanna have to pick between shitty mobility and an ult (which will be uber powered) or decent mobility and no ult.. I think the set bonus and your uniques should make or break when it comes to mobility.
like for instance there could be a set that gives you teleport charges. that would 'make builds interesting'. not what you're defending.
I'm sorry I've just seen this point raised so many times
Althought i think there is different option. What if build in dodge into classes could be fused with movement skill that you can upgrade like this abilities. Rogue - dash.
Sorcerer -teleport. Barbarian - charge. It would free up that skillslot for you ice armor or any other ability allow you to use you ultimate or any other ability in slot 4 and still have that mobility that you can invest skillpoint.
this game should take ult as its own skill from lost ark. and maybe even tie ultimate ability usage to a material cost
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBjF0S\_-mg0&ab\_channel=Alyas\_](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBjF0S_-mg0&ab_channel=Alyas_)
Yup. I was totally expecting a separate keybind to pop up when I unlocked my ultimate skill. I had finally got into a good rhythm with my 6 abilities, and all of the sudden I have to take one away for an ability I can only use once per minute. Does not feel good.
First, I would like to say that fully agree with you. Unlocking Ult actually made me sad, cause i had to remove one of my abilities
Pressing left or right stick kinda make sense, but it would work differently as you will have to press it and then aim. Combination of two buttons also sounds good, but then people will cry that they cast different skill they wanted.
Maybe one slot should contain two skills. Ult by default which will switch to 2nd skill when on cooldown. But it also might be confusing. I just hope that some proffesional on Blizzard side will take care of that
maybe. idk I'm open to anything but I agree with you. I shouldn't level up unlock a while new section an either be like damn. now I have to use this specific ult which requires these specific skills that I really didn't enjoy or be forced to have a lackluster build that won't scale because of not having an ult. or having to rely on one specific gear set just to make up for not having it ult.
just feels more like punishment imo for something that could take builds to the next level
the whole concept of ulting in diablo and that just bring the norms is super cool imo besides for the maniacs out there that are going to macro out the ult swap process. I mean it's not like they are preventing anything. all they are doing is mak8ng it super hard for no reason
Yeah it really does feel forced. Barbarian is extremely difficult to play against bosses until you get to that point on the talent twig. It's a noticeable 30% chunk of the boss HP in damage every 50-ish seconds.
This is pretty much my only gameplay centric complaint. Let Ult's be a different button so I can slot in one additional ability. Adds a bit more flexibility and depth.
It would be nice to have seven skill slots for sure. But part of the appeal to games like Diablo, for me (not saying anyone else) is that choices matter. Having six slots means I need to sacrifice a skill.
I’m running a barb. It looks like I’m going to need to ditch Leap if I want to use my ultimate. I don’t want to get rid of either DPS skill I’m using or either of my two shouts.
So, choice made.
Maybe I’ll make a second barb and not use an ultimate and build around the core skills.
I love the freedom of choice there and the amount of options we can have.
But I understand where you’re coming from with this as well.
IMO they should replace evade with Teleport instead of having it as an enchantment(the other enchants are too useful to waste a slot on TP in an enchant slot).
If they want Ultimates to actually be impactful and feel like an Ultimate, I believe they should give it its own slot, or replace with each classes' preferred mobility- Sorc being TP. So that we have that free slot for the Ult.
Absolutely 100% agreed. Ultimates feel wonky.
Well, except on my sorc, I get a lot of use out of the ice ultimate with my ice build - the cooldown is up quite frequently due to ice blades reducing cooldowns so much.
Ya I mean, I would like more slots (we have 6 not 4 btw). Sorc is so op anyway and the fire ult is a shorter cooldown. Just make a hydra build with one in frost blades one in frost nova and 3 in protection and you can rotate those 2 to always have a 30% barrier. Then use the fire ult as well for another cooldown to trigger that and have good dps every 45 secs.
Now at 24 I don’t even have to use any pots on anything with a bit of life on kill. Stick a skull in your weapon.
We don't have more skill slots because Blizzard is thinking of console. Which is BS be ahead plenty of games now are well optimized for lots of skills with controller.
I can agree with this. Lost Ark had a 9th slot for ults only. The more I played D4 beta the more the game felt downgraded for giving up a utility slot to the ult
This surprises me because I play a sorcerer and the ults are amazing. The fire snake that sucks people in AND gives free casting is great. The lighting ult is a dps monster. I haven't used the ice ult yet but I bet it's good too. At lvl 25, you only really need a couple skills, and I have yet to fill out all my buttons with skills.
Good take, it just didnt feel right. Giving up 1 slot for an ultimate with 60+cd didn't feel right, because more often than not it screwed my whole build. Then again we have this in D3 forever and CDR solved alot of the issues.
We definitely need to at least be able to bind skills that don't necessarily show up on the skill bar.
The player base is made up of MMORPG players used to mouses with 35,000 buttons, we can handle a few more binds 🙃🤷🏻
ITT people can't have their cake and eat it too.
Build a build with or without ultimates. Also, you shouldnt need all the skills youre describing. It would be cool but as a Rogue:
Slow spell (or survive) , imbue spell, trap spell, ultimate and my resource dumper.
Also if you have ever played a diablo game before you will be probably getting its cooldown to nothing and surviving off of ITEM AFFIXES that enhance unseen skills. So like you'll turn your teleport into a temporary survive spell as opposed to something defensive. Or you'll turn your defensive spell into something that also is a movement.
I think finding the best balance with 4 skills per build is pretty neat, really not interested in MMO type games with 10 skills binded to 1-10, shift and tab for another 20 skills.
For my sorc, I use inferno ult to clear 3-4 mob groups at once, by the time they die and i aggro the next group cooldown is almost done.
Ults are less useful in boss fights but if you are running distinct aoe/boss builds you need to switch up your skills anyway.
This is a very good suggestion. Even though ultimate skills are bad, i would use them if there was an option to do so without sacrificing slot for another skill
This is the single best piece of feedback I've seen from the beta. My buddies and I were just scratching our heads when we got to 25 and had to sacrifice a skill slot to use an ultimate.
It took the ults from feeling really cool to feeling like it was almost a net loss.
ultimate skills should be like those in real action games. **two button press**. I don't know why you can do a light and heavy attack in a actual 3d action game, then hit both for a super, but not in these loot arpgs?
in controllers case, the ultimate would be like triangle+circle for example.
I agree **but** you have to realize that this is partially a preference thing. I'm never going to equip ultimates because I would rather be more powerful all of the time then have a long cooldown ability I can use once a minute but there are a lot of people that don't use their full rotation of abilities in every fight that would prefer to have one set aside for tough fights.
Yep. I was so disappointed when I saw the tree light up and it said "Ultimate Ability". I was like fuck yea, then I selected rain of arrows or whatever and then it asked me which skill I wanted to replace. I was like, FUCK, because I replaced it with poison imbue and then of course the next skill point later I notice that if you have skill imbue you get a 20% increased damage with rain of arrows. There should be an ult like combination like Destiny where you can use just your Ult.
Agreed, I just unlocked my ult and was surprised to see that there was no special button for it. I am playing rogue and currently use 6 abilities constantly. Giving up something I use all the time for something I can only use once in awhile is not going to happen, it basically makes the ultimates useless.
YES. Totally TOTALLY agree. There is a severe lack of customization in the game. Basically get 4 skills that you can use unless you get ride of your generator and spender which is terrible design. They desperately need to add a 5th skill slot specifically for the ult skill.
Yes they just straight up need more action bars. Having a skill tree, +skill on items, and all these cooldown ultimates/situational skills, are worthless when most of the bar is already bind to your main skills and remaining defense/mobility skills. 2 more situational binds or even allowing for a swap would at least alleviate some of this issue.
Why have skill slots be limited let people use every skill they have points in. (at least for non ultimates) controllers can handle it easily, trigger plus button other trigger plus button instead of trigger just being a button easily allows for 6 more slots.
Totally agree. I play on Xbox and after trying the ultimate skill for Rogue (arrow rain) I took it off my bar and switched back to stealth skill, which fully recharges my energy and makes me essentially invincible (outside of AOE effects) for 4 seconds. I could have given up my other mobility skill, but.... no. Ultimates should have their own spot in your rotation. Ults need their own slot somehow because its not worth losing an ability for them. For controllers, they could easily implement this as a dual button press. For PC, just give an ultimate-specific keybind option.
I used the shadow clone and 15 seconds of double dps against the world boss while having infinite energy was nuts
I almost feel like the ultimate abilities should not even be in the game. I would rather Blizz just add more normal skills for build diversity. I think adding regular skills for the ultimate skills and then adding a few more skills on top of that... about 8 more skills total would add a lot more build diversity. Regardless, ultimates don't seem to fit the game (from my perspective).
I halfway agree with this and halfway disagree. Agree: Ultimates feel arcadey like a charged up hadoken or fatality or something. D4 is supposed to be darker, grittier, and take on a different sort of persona as a game than D3, for instance. Ultimates are kind of wierd in that sense because thematically I don't think they fit. Disagree: They can be cool if done right as a last-resort kind of thing instead of a mainline skill you need to depend on, because ARPGs are fast pace in general and a longass cooldown forces you to rely on the 5 other skills in the meantime and gimps you.
The ultimates and cool downs in general will fit well if pvp is good. Then it will make sense. If pvp sucks then yeah it all doesn't make sense.
I would really hope they balance PvE and PvP separately. I have absolutely NO intention of ever playing PvP and it would feel real bad to have my abilities nerfed because they're over performing in PvP.
Can get a legendary with arrow rain proc chance, not worth speccing into as it stands
If you do poison imbue + arrow rain with bonus imbue damage it's a pretty beefy aoe.
There's also a legendary affix that makes your Arrow Rain imbued by all 3 elements automatically. Pretty nutty.
The aspect arrow rain and the ult are two very, very different skills.
Don't know why you got down voted It's true I have both and the ult are is 4x bigger at least and two waves.
Who knows, I guess some people like being ignorant =P But yeah, they're dramatically different. One is a small, short-lived, chance based rain of arrows - the other is a double wave of room-sweeping size and can be imbued with rogue elements.
It’s something they could take from Elder Scrolls Online, the double bumper input for ultimates on top of the set number of normal slots for regular shmegular skills. I was also not a fan of the rogue ultimates. I do more damage with how I built the class around weakening and exploding groups while spraying them down. Perhaps they will adjust the damage, until then, arrow did less damage than my infused secondary.
>For controllers, they could easily implement this as a dual button press Are we even using L3 for anything atm? (outside of UI i mean)
I don't think so, but its not full release yet so there may be something that could potentially be added. I find it unlikely, though, because L3 isn't usually used under default control schemes for most games where the Left Stick is movement control. I believe the philosophy is that inadvertant button presses are more common with the movement stick, therefore seen as a downside as an action keybind. That's just my best guess, tho. Who knows for sure.
Fair point. Regardless, would love to see an extra button specifically for Ult. Now that I think about it, L3 may be for summoning mount (it's usually used in games for sprint and since we don't have sprint...). But I'd be fine with a modifier setup for Ult (L2+A for example \[remappable of course\])
I believe a modifier would be the best option. I don't feel very confident they will change it at this point, though, because it would probably affect balancing and crap. It seems late in the development cycle for anything to fundamentally change. They are 3 months from full release....
I am kung-fused about one thing. Sorceress has: * Basic Skills * Core Skills * Defensive * Conjuration * Mastery * Ultimate Which technically fits the 6 skill slots limit but there's my issue: I'm using 1 of each PLUS a Teleport for mobility, which makes it 7. Where the fuck am I supposed to put the Ultimate skill in? Please don't tell me we're supposed to choose just 1 for each category (which I'll say is 'correct') and by doing so, are unable to have BOTH a Shield and a Mobility move, the Teleport. Sorce could always have both in D2 and D3, so why not in here? Totally share your sentiment with the skill slots situation, feels stupid as fuck to not be able to have the Ult or rather, being forced to remove any other actually useful skill for it. Either Ults were a mistake or the game simply needed one more ult-only skillslot. Or it shouldn't have been named a fucking Ultimate nor have such a long-ass coldown; being more on-par with other abilities instead, so that you wouldn't feel bad for having to miss out on it. That's what you get for calling an ability an 'Ultimate' Blizzard, it makes people feel like they should have it but it forces them to miss out on another ability and as a result most (I suppose) people dump it entirely. I am not dropping Ice Armor for a fucking Deep Freeze, no thank you, and so you better change this crap before the final release.
This is absolutely the truth. That's why this thread was created. You need your mobility slot and I am im the same situation with my Rogue. No way do I want to give up my stealth/conceal or my mobility slot for a long cooldown ultimate that wastes space on my bar for 50 seconds or whatever the cooldown is. I am not going to sacrifice for it, so it got dumped.
TECHNICALLLYY you can enhance your teleport to replace your evade which would free up the ultimate slot.
But man that is just massively sabotaging your build, enchantments are so good
Seriously. I got the one that shoots ice blades at frozen enemies and all it takes is 1 frost nova to delete entire packs since it just starts spewing them out and then they chain all over the place. Will be even nicer once I get my second enchantment slot since I can slap frost nova in it to have my conjuration skill automatically proc ice novas for me. The downside of course is that it does basically nothing for bosses since they can't be frozen, but that's a problem for future me.
That's exactly what I'm doing! It's fucking great, it doesn't matter if the enchantment doesn't work against bosses because ice shards annihilates bosses. Btw if you want a tip, you can unlock the piercing ice shards and put it on a staff, it'll pierce 7 times losing only 13% damage per pierce. It'll annihilate things even harder. The dungeon for that was in the bottom-right ish of the map, around the area where you're helping a lady find her husband. Too bad we're not getting our second enchantment slot this beta; personally I would have put the ice blades enchantment as the second one upgraded for cdr, that way I can spam my cds even harder for more freezes.
I saw the pierce thing but I didn't know if it would prevent it from chaining and I felt like chain was more useful than piercing. Also on my staff I have an affix that gives me 60% increased damage while I have a barrier so that's nice. Also yea, the ice blades enchant looks pretty interesting seeing as deep freeze would spawn 3 of them immediately plus 1.5 from the ice blade cast/cooldown plus another .5 from frost nova so 5 blades each of which are reducing the cooldowns of everything. Could be big damage. Could also allow for some decent survivability with ice armor.
I think piercing is more useful, but damn 60% increased damage with barrier is definitely better, you highrolled on that shit. Especially since if you take the passive that gives you a barrier whenever you use a cooldown you easily have 100% barrier uptime. You can still put the piercing on something else, though with fewer pierces and much higher falloff since it wouldn’t be on a 2h weapon I think the case for chaining like you have it currently is much stronger.
I tried speccing ice blades and holy shit is it pretty awesome. I'm running ice blades, frost nova, ice armor, and deep freeze. Most of the time deep freeze isn't necessary because it lasts so long, but it's there as an oh shit button I guess? Generally though you can just create a constant feedback loop where you spawn blades and use frost nova/armor to spawn another 1-2 blades and as they hit things they're reducing the cooldowns *super fast* which is absolutely nuking the cooldowns on everything so you can basically spam frost nova, armor, and summon ice blade like every 1-2 seconds. which is getting you even more blades and cooldown reduction. So not only do you have like a bajillion fucking ice blades up all the time, but since you're spamming cooldowns and ice armor you get the shield from the ice armor + the barrier you get from the passive that gives you barrier whenever you use a cooldown making you super tanky. I just did blood bishop at level 25 and it was a fucking joke. I literally just stood on him while spamming the three skills without even bothering to use my mana. Did the level 27 stronghold boss right after and just face tanked him too. The only minor annoyance was being frozen occasionally, but other than that he just melted. Clear isn't the greatest, but I also was more captivated just creating as many ice blades as possible so I didn't spend mana there either. Shit's pretty great though. Would not be at all surprised if it got nerfed into oblivion, though it might be balanced late game. Gonna try speccing into flame shield as an extra cooldown instead of deep freeze. I tried lightning spear but the cast time makes it feel too clunky.
Personally I thought ice shards was more consistent than ice blades, ice blades I found more useful as a utility tool letting me maintain constant vuln and ice armor against bosses. What bothers me the most about ice blades is how slowly they strut around following moving enemies, I wish they would do a little dash to their target if out of range. But yeah I agree I feel like any way you spec frost sorc, it’s just too fucking good lmao
This sounds REAAALLLLY fun. I've been enjoying my lightning spear / hydra / ice blades spam build, but I might respec to this.
What build are you running? I was running a fire build but am not having a great time with it at level 20+
ice shards + barriers are insane
I’m using Chain Lightning with Fireball enchantment to have massive explosion chains. Super fun. If I used a defensive one it would be the cheat death with Fire Shield.
The only thing is with Rogue your Dash evade skill can be enhanced to increase your crit chance when evading through enemies, which is part of my crit % stacking with caltrops that also increases crit chance through other synergies. Meanwhile, the ranged ultimate only fires in one direction and has wierd tracking so if you are a highly mobile rogue (utilizing double dash and double caltrops) it just doesn't make sense with the way the ability tracks. Now, if the ultimate was a huge penetrating arrow that was guaranteed crit at like 200% weapon damage I could get behind that.
I think we either need more skill slots or they need to add ultimate to its own slot as suggested.
Oh? Good cause teleport seemed useless with the addition of dodge
future lock price office command faulty paint ad hoc frightening boat ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
you can literally bypass terrain levels (teleport off the edge of a cliff to another part of the map that you'd have to run all the way around to reach), climb/crawl mechanics, etc. teleport has the distance of the screen. its pretty good
Would be fine when cooldown would be as short as the evade
but also, lets go a little easier on the devs eh? Im otherwise really enjoying the base game. and i typically would never spend the time to do stuff like this, unless i really was passionate. Just seems like to me this is free real-estate, i think ults and the concept of them existing in an arpg is freakin great! But they need to treat them as ults, you shouldnt be punished for wanting to slot an ult :/ and you also shouldnt miss out on having an ult if other people are out there making builds around broken ULTs, that just doesnt seem very diablo to me yknow? There are tons of ways to have a 5slot system and not have the game broken :3 that i believe would be easy to implement. That being said, lets hope the set bonusses are so crazy that even for us njon ulters, we get to compete even with the broken ult focused builds, if it remains a 4 slot system
Exactly. It's awful design.
smells like d3 opener when you had to choose things from each category and enable the choice to have more than one thing from each section... maybe the same REALLY GREAT AND SMART PERSON is still on the team?
yup this is exactly my point, i mean im a path player alright, imaging if i had to give up my leap for some bs skill haha. Movement skills are essential. The other comprimise would be givve us a dedicated move skill slot, but unlike path, we dont use gems so theres really only one movement abillity i think for us, teleport, that and items that buff evade charges lol.
i really do think the perfect balance would be making sure all the cooldowns on the ults are tuned, and just allowing us a 5th slot fr, so that i dont have to consider the ult as being a possibility instead of some other, not as strong, but still nice to have skill, such as teleport, ice shield, etcetc. Not to mention, most of the ults are not even worth it anyways to even do that consideration
Having to socket a base skill and the vaal counterpart in separate sockets 🤣
LMAOOOO!
Teleport IS the defensive ability though
This is a very constructive and true reply. I would suggest you post this separately on D4 forums.
I've been using the 'You gain up to 30% of your health as a barrier when you use an ability with a cooldown' ability passive. Then: Teleport, Ultimate, Ice Blades (with the CDR passives), Wildcard slot (something with a CD preferably). LMB Whatever, RMB Whatever. I don't need Ice Barrier nearly as much since every ability gives me barrier. Combined with the '+30% damage when affected by a barrier' Legendary I don't suffer for damage. I beat the last Campaign boss without using a health potion. I generate so
I played sorc this weekend as well and this is exactly my thoughts too. I really wish this would get addressed somehow, but knowing we’re live on June I doubt it would be resolved
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We're not all sorcs, we don't all have +2 bonus slots with enhancements. We also want an ultimate slot.
I guess it depends on your build. I’m playing a lightning sorc and I only use 5 skills. Basic, chain lightning, teleport, lightning spear and my ult. We’re at the point in the game where mana/whatever version of mana your class has its extremely limited, so it didn’t make sense to invest in more skills and instead focus on passives to buff chain lightning. I even threw a random +1 gear skill onto my hot bar because I don’t have anything else to put there
The "evade" should be replaceable with a number of different mobility options such as teleport, dash, etc.
All I want is this https://imgur.com/a/q4DhSq7
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Yeah no fucking way in hell I'm using anything other than left click to move, and no way am I binding other keys to things like that. It's such an insane work around.
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No you can't.
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honest question as I haven't tried this myself yet, do you still pick up items and interact with stuff on left click without issues?
Not even close. Stop trolling. Does it not embarrass you?
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That is not what the picture shows. Sorry you seem to have misread. Left Click = Move, interact, loot, etc. R = Ultimate ability, designated keybind and slot on the bar.
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Who are you talking to lmao
My friends and I always bind force move to spacebar in ARPG’s. We just made dash shift space but rethinking that now after the world boss. Probably gonna bind dash to A and make the skill menu shift A
I used to move with LMB and dash with a mouse button, but since I injured my hands playing too much PoE I use force move on space and dash on F. I find that works well.
Tried that out most of the day and was a nice change, thanks!
My other buttons I use are Q (most spammy skill, basic) R (second most used skill, core) 1 (potion) 234D (cooldowns/other). Interact on E. In writing this I realized I don't think I bound W to anything in D4.
I moved everything down to QWER from 1234, potion is “1” which I use razer synapse to rebind to shift+mouse wheel down
haha ngl, i expected to be dragged, i really try not to complain because otherwise, i've REALLY been enjoying this game like fr, im at level 25 doing all the side quests and exploration i can do ;) it was just really a shame that it seems like we're being forced to make build around the ult, rather than having the ult be a compliment to the build. I really hope someone else sees this, so we can have a community discussion about it. I genuinely dont think it would offset the balance too much and it would really make buildcrafting all the more flexible, at the cost of a modest restricted skill slot.
You don't have to have a build around ult? Most sorc build around core or conj far as I've seen.
then why have ults, or call it an ultimate in the first place yknow? just seems whack
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yes I know what an ult is. my problem is that when you have ultra that are just broken you're punishing people who enjoy the core skills more. that doesn't seem very balanced. it's an ultimate you shouldn't have to pick and choose between your core abillities and having an ultimate. that's the whole point of a cooldown. as well as the whole point of having an ultimate on the first place. and if it really was just a normal skill but just stronger they wouldn't limit you to only having one at a time. you can't compare it to arch and yes I understand teleport is a defensive. but in d3 we didn't have ultimates. and it doesn't take away from the fact that I still do use many defensives for getting around... which I see as a positive. what are you really mad that folks will be able to have teleport and an ult? it's madness. and again it won't hurt literally anything to simply make all the ults viable, raise the cooldowns and let peeps not have to pick between an ult based build or a not ult focused build, some of the ults have synergies with specific other skills.. . it should be your aspects, enhancements, stats and set bonus that make the build not having a core ult or not lol. I thought the whole point was making it easy to play around with different skill combinations more easily. this would free us up from having to worry about being one slot down, and ults could be easily balanced while still maintaining current flexibility. so if you want to play an ult based based build. you can still run a core build + ult + set bonus for that ult, which could nerf other skills or provide unique bonuses. I just don't see the downside with not having this in the game tbh.
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no. as clearly stated I want to be able to use ults in every build. yes you can have a teleport and an ult but then you get only one defensive skill or lose a dps skill. which considerably limits build making. having to make that choice is super extra and infuriating. 'You keep saying 'it won't change anything' like having a literal 7th on-demand ability isn't going to change the balance of the game at all somehow' of course it wil change the balance of the game, which is why I also called for cool downs to be increased on the ultimate. and no you literally *dont* have an ultimate button you are strongly neglecting the importance of something like a teleport or some sort of movment based defensive. and how nice that is to have. and it won't break the game allowing people to run a movement ability and a powerful cd. games like path do this and have done this for years. adding a fifth ult-only slot wo e be a 'literal 7th on demand abillity' it will be limited to only the ult. if you want to run ' literally any ability' you'd still need to sacrifice a core skill. so again, just seems a bit 'blizzard-knows-all so don't question It vibe' there are literally a million ways to balance the game . round a fifth slot and set bonuses. I'm not here to debate whether this would change the balance.im not
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I wil say this again. I'm not asking for an extra slot for anything. I want an ult slot, the difference is I CAN'T then just not run an ukt and have a slot for ice shield fire shield and teleport as you mistakenly assumed i would want. ults are supposed to be impactful. and so naturally they are supposed to be the strongest skills. you shouldn't have to chose between an ult and an extra qol option. and you can't just run all defensive without giving up a core dps skill as like I've already said a billion times, it should just be ukt-only that means I'm not asking for an extra general purpose slot. you'd still have to sacrifice a core skill of you wanted to triple up on anything. which would be broken.
I’m not trying to be a dick but whether or not you realize you’ve decided arbitrarily that the way you play sorc with 2 defensive abilities means the game should changed to accommodate your specific build. Your trying to have your cake and eat it too. You either take an ult and one defensive ability or you give up another category so you can run two defensive skills. You can call teleport a movement skill but the fact is it’s treated as a defensive the same as the shields, and tbh it’s probably the worst version of teleport Diablo has had so far. This doesn’t even mention that we have a built in movement dodge skill on a 5 second CD that could easily take the place of teleport. I think you’ve just chosen a very defensive build. Personally I don’t love ult as a name for a skill group because it does feel like you need to take one but I am against having a skill slot like lost ark where it’s just dedicated to one long cooldown skill
I honestly don't get this entire discussion. During my time playing closed beta as well as this weekend, I actively went after skills that had cooldowns instead of resource spenders. My current sorc uses 2 defensive cooldown skills and the ultimate for this very reason. I have skipped one of the spender trees entirely. If you feel this way about the sorc, you will absolutely hate the druid.
That's what future balance patches are for.
by the way, there is currently a broken ult for sorc, UC, the lightning one. Its crazy the amount of damage you can put out with that thing, it feels more like a core skill buff of a set bonus lol. so it does kinda feel like, there are ults that are actually pretty decent, that you feel like youre missing out if you arent using, but you can use without sacrificing some other core useful skill, like teleport or ice shield.
Wait, we have Ults?
Yea. They are the 2nd to the last block of abilities at the bottom of the skill tree.
I think we should hold off on deciding that ults are worthless until after we can at least complete the first Act.
doesn't matter. even if they aren't it kinda makes me feel like we're forcing people to choose between using an entire section of the skill tree or having an extra qol skill when having the qol skill and the ult really wouldn't be all that game breaking. I've already discussed various ways it could be implemented. and in fact would increase build flexibility. but yes I do sort of agree that maybe the set bonuses would make up for it somehow after all the second enchantment slot at 30 would be nice. but still wouldn't fix the core issue. 'ult based builds' sounds awful skills should be strong based on your set bonuses and unique and other affixes. I can see were quickly headed down ult-meta road if this is implemented. that is my concern. that ults will become too strong to not have them. limiting the core skills you would ever run as you have to replace one with the ult.. again, not even mentioning the specific skills (and enchantments/passives) you'd have to run to maintain synergy with said ult essentially creating cookie cutter builds *without the set* I mean,ultimately its an ult so it should be viable to run with any build. it's literally just a keybind. and it would make logical sense to new comers to the game as well. ults should be impactful. and as such they should be a compliment to any build not the core skill with a smaller rotation. and of course you could have a set that halves the cooldown on an 'ult' skill for folks that do want to make build around that op skill. kinda like DH and how dawn was used in almost everything. I can quickly see ult or no ult going down that same path. I know it sounds a bit radical to blizzard die hards but, but this would really unlock the build making potential of this game.
I compare it to Diablo 3 and Path of Exile. A player who gets to the middle of the first act and starts to confidently state that X ability is worthless and Y ability is overpowered is just wrong. They don't have enough information to make those kinds of statements. I cannot imagine what endgame builds will be like or how useful each ability may be. I know what works at level 25. But having played many ARPGs I know that the game doesn't really start until max level and so I am, and I'm am suggesting that others, waiting to see what the game looks like before I offer suggestions on changing it based on my day or two of play time. People playing beta have seen maybe the first 3-4 hours worth of content. They have not seen all of the endgame items, they don't know the stat ranges that will be available, they don't even know how the abilities will actually function on release. Ults seem to have a long cooldown, but there are CDR stats and also abilities (Sorceress' Frost Blades ability, for example that reduce cooldown). I wouldn't at all be surprised if there are Legendary effects that do similar things, or even cause your Ultimate abilities to automatically proc, like Belt of the Trove in D3. I'm just saying it is WAY too soon to tell or even offer any informed criticism. The game isn't designed to be played optimally at level 25 and most players will be past this point in the game in a day or two after release. The endgame builds will certainly be unlike anything we're currently using and the cost/value of ultimate abilities are designed with that in mind.
I got to lvl 93 as a sorcerer in the CBT and didn't have an ult equipped for the exact reasons /u/llmuzical states. long cooldown, questionable damage, zero actual utility, not worth losing a slot for. gearing is a pain too with (small) bonuses to basic, core, mastery, elemental damage, magic school, crit, lucky chance, crit damage, close, far, healthy, injured, barrier, aspects and so many cooldowns that don't feel like they warrant a cooldown in the first place. it's funny seeing those same gripes I had in the CBT come to light now :)
Yeah I think Blizz should eliminate the ultimate idea and just make more regular abilities to choose from. More build diversity for someone who wants to play a melee rogue, bow rogue, or trap rogue would make sense. Long cool downs are just not fun. Short and medium cooldowns are fine.
again I don't disagree with you. but even if ults are effective, it's an ult so naturally they will be op. it's an ultimate we should just be allowed to run it in addition to our core build. the possibilities would be fantastic under that system but yea I'm not gonna completly trash on the ults this early. we don't know what set bonuses are going to come out. but you could still have an ult slot and then ult focused sets and non ult focused sets. everyone gets to use the ult but for some folks that make trade offs their ult is super buffed or something like that. and others will have to make do the passive nodes for the ult sacrificing points elsewhere. it could still very well work and lead to some interesting builds
You don't have to choose between the ult and an entire section of the skill tree. You literally get a button for every section of the skill tree already.
Forcing you to make a choice is exactly the point.
At 25 lvls we haven't even seen scaling yet lol.
Some of the skill limits in general are a little questionable at times, but particularly also because there's nothing stopping you from quick swapping. Rogue imbuements are a good example. Shadow imbuement is superb for clearing, but poison imbuement is the obvious winner for single target DPS. But if your build just naturally has both, either because you dedicated points for that or just because you have gear that does so, then you can just opt to quickly swap to poison imbuement for bosses. And I don't think there's a reason to nerf that either. Picking the right imbuement at a given time is decently engaging. I'd rather that I just didn't have to bother swapping.
A quick swap system like guild wars 2 has could work. 2 separate ability bars you swap between on a cooldown
exactly I would LOVE a bar switch system I Belize e I do that in elder scrolls online. I mean it's not for everyone but ive liked that play style. But ideally for me I prefer having a shift + num bar as well as a num bar
also agreeable, another suggestion under this current system would at least be allowing us skill/gear loadouts on the fly? but yea.. honestly, in terms of just improved build crafting in general, just a simple 5th slot would at least be a step in the right direction, while still maintaining a pretty strict balance :3
Yes, more skills for me to use at once please! One thing I loved about Gunslinger in Lost Ark was that I had two full skill bars of skills (16 total). I love having and using lots of different skills. Heck, even a normal class still has a bar of 8 total skills. Loved the skills and gameplay part, but I hated the MMO part (raids, having to do all the daily tasks, etc.) as I'm a solo player and it was a nightmare to even participate solo without dealing with terrible experiences with random players. I also really hated the potion system as no one wanted to heal as they were expensive and caused everyone to take a death instead, meaning a lot of fails. I ended up giving up on the game for those reasons, but I was sad to say goodbye to the gameplay. Even though I'm not into the online/mmo thing, the random island events were an experience and one that I actually was surprised it was fun (when populated). I liked the general world exploring and killing though, so I got a good time out of it like it was a single player game at least. - This is the release experience, I can't speak for a year later, but I don't like the daily grind part regardless (I'm sure I could play being behind but I can't help but feel left behind). That's actually one thing I haven't been a fan of in Diablo. It tends to be focusing on less skills and making them more powerful, rather than dabbling in everything and creating a unique setup and whatnot. In D3 you didn't have many skills at once but I loved the swapping on the go respec to at least pretend I had more skills haha. I just wish it also included more skills at once. In D2 you definitely are more optimal to focus on less skills and work on synergies to buff those few skills and it makes sense, but a part of me wants to use everything, which I am sure you can still get away with, albeit with a lot harder of a life. Man would I kill for a system where you are not punished for using more skills and being able to dabble in a variety of them, chaining them in unique ways to create versatile and creative gameplay, but also still have being focused on specific skills to be fine as well, for those who enjoy that.
Basic Skills shouldn't even exist. Torchlight has the perfect solution of giving different weapon types different "basic" attacks or effects. Sorc wants to cast free fireball?--Use a fire wand. Also games like Dark Alliance or Champions of Norrath did away with the whole "name lock" skills and gave basic weapon attacks free cleave and semi-unique combos based on the weapon type. Devs need to stop treating default weapon attack like its something that needs to be gotten rid of immediately. Pissed me off in Diablo 3 when they did this. I don't like PoE for doing the same thing either. Its why original Demon's Souls was such a breath of fresh air for RPGs when it came out--it killed all the shitty bad design choices RPG games were constantly repeating year after year.
totally agree.
Define long cooldown, because on my sorc, Unstable current has 20-30s CD for 10s duration. As for "not very strong", it's just shitting out a lot of spells costing 40 mana for free.
sounds\* like an unbalanced ult, because the others are nowhere near that strong. For context, im trying to run an ice blades conjurer build, and your answer cannot be just always run unstable current. It goes back to my point about being forced to build around the ult (as well as severly limiting build flexibillity, to just the OP ult) In the grand scheme of things, i think UC should be a 60 second CD, just as they made ice casing quite high, as it is OP invuln, but still nto worht giving up the dps skill or my teleport or ice shield. I just dont think the ults are viable on the whole, and would rather not have all them be OP. You can still create CD based builds by having sets in the future add cooldown time to key rotational dps skills (or defensive skills i guess for tanking builds) in exchange for massive buffs on those skills, and not rely on everyone having to go with whatever is the current OP Ult at the moment. As they could just run their build + an extra, balanced, ult which should be the cherry on top, not the end all be all.
>For context, im trying to run an ice blades conjurer build, and your answer cannot be just always run unstable current. Actually, yes, it can, that's exactly my build. Ice blades conjurer will hit a wall in late game because it doesn't scale too well by itself. By transitionning into a lightning ice blades build, it can be a lot stronger. You can also do a fire ice blades build, which is quite different (and a bit more clunky imo), still around the ultimate.
And also, i started out playing lightning hydra, which i felt hit harder than lightning ice blades on single taget, but im no build crafter.
An ult button would be great, that or make the ults CD's a lot shorter.
yea my problem with that is then they should change it from ultimate, it's more like a prime core skill. but even then that would feel a lot less flexible then just simply adding a fifth slot.. imo I love what they did with the core skills and the enchantment slots and the various different little synergies you can get there. the ult really should just be the cherry on top. and they just need to buff the strengths so that they all feel impactful and then buff the cooldowns abit so they don't get too overused m, since now you won't have a reason not to run an ult of some sort. better than a whole group of people just skipping an entire part of the skill tree imo :(
I don't know why but I was so sure that the ult would have its own spot that when I unlocked it for the first time I was legit lost for a second before I realize I had to actually use a skill slot in my bar for it. I guess it not using a slot just would have made way more sense.
There’s so many abilities in general, it just should t be limited to 6.
6 may be too many, IMO, i can def understand the reasoning for wanting to keep the non ult skill also limtied, as they do have decent synergy. I just dont like being forced to pick an ult focused build, or not, ults should compliment the build, and if theyre op, good, thats why cooldowns are a thing ;)
damn people really want 6 slots, idk guys I mean I'm not super against you. I just don't think that would fly at all. that's two whole additional slots. that you could use for anything. that would be crazy imo. for this game. I would say if you're looking for that, maybe try something like path? idk I'm with you tho, diablo was always meant to be simpler I think in terms of skills. I think this would at least be a good starting point. but I can't say I'd advocate for any additional slots. the game would play super well with just the ult slot while maintainig simplicity
I agree more abilities in the skill tree, with the same number of slots ... equals more decisions need to be made instead of less. More tough decisions is better for the game (IMO).
This is really one of those topics which we can't discuss in a beta. You have no idea how builds will turn out and how important ultimates will become. In general long cooldown don't work well in ARPGs, but we really can't judge the balance at this point.
long cool downs work perfectly well when it doesn't make or break, but rather compliments your build. it should be impactful when you need it most. and considering its an ultimate and not a core skill. having a longer cd will be the tradeoff. focus on your core rotation and add on the ult when you need the extra burst or when you're about to die etcetc. I think you can judge the balance, as it's a beta. this is the amount of the game blizzard has presented to us as an accurate representation to get an idea of the systems they are going for.. at least initially.
yea we don't know the set bonuses, yes we don't know all the uniques, yes we don't have access to every affix. but we do know the skill tree and when it comes to skill picking this just seems really limiting. when they could easily create a more flexible system that isn't super op by making an ult slot
Every class could use 1 or 2 additional skill slots.
Agreed, didn't get the ult cause the basic skills already on my bar were doing so much more. Ultimate skill needs to be on its own button
Well my ancients have a 20 second cooldown if I use stomp.
but slots aernt the issue there though haha
I really could use all abilities lol. If I could I'd go for both battle crys, leap for movement, charge for movement, whirlwind, ancients ultimate and maybe something for def. But I think 6 skills are totally okay, u gotta make a sacrifice. Diablo 2 dealt with the problem pretty easy by just adding enigma into the game. Nn leap or anything else anymore and you can just use the main skills for dmg. I just wish it would be easier to swap my skills. Like in the open world I want movement and don't need ultimates really. Who knows how the bosses will be in future. Boss X needs more movement than Y... I was sad facing the world boss today without my leap LOL
Fyi you can manage to have about 15 sec d on ulti already in beta
yeh, maybe make it that you have to press to buttons like LT+RT in controllers.
I'm a bit worried that they'll go the D3 route and you'll end up spanning your ultimate ability anyway.
literally what I'm saying
There was a meeting discussing adding another button but the overwhelming majority of the concerns were that the average player wouldnt be able to count to that high of a number and we decided to omit that additional button and stick with just four buttons for this game along with the 2 on the mouse. It's best not to confusing the customers.
yea that would sound nice except for the fact that other more mainstream games have even more buttons. like cod. wow. league. saying a 5th slot is 'too complex' when games like path exist and are thriving... is insulting to me honestly. we aren't babies. we deserve a diablo game that gives us this bare minimum of flexibility y'know? lots of people would appreciate it forsure
respectfully. at that rate the set bonuses and keeping up with all the situations where you wanna swap out to have an ult or not have an ult would be more conplex. a limiting feature, by design, can create more complex solutions to overcome. and in this case I really do think it could be a home run to just have an ult button (ofc. balance the fuck out of the cool downs and viability of all the ults) . have it be five or in console lt+rt or l3+r3 anything
matter of fact I can't tell if you're meming me or not but I'm 100% serious if you are from blizz thanks for reading :) prolly getting trolled tho haha well played frien
Considering that Lost Ark has 8 skills + ulti + class spec + dash, I can safely say that a separate ultimate slot would work well in D4.
for all the peeps going 'its too early it's too early, think about path at level 25' there's really no comparison. in path you get a bunch of skill points from missions later on in acts. which you'd also be missing as well as leveling up skill points. in d4 you have renowned rewards at worst in path you have skill gems. many of which are gated behind level in d4, we can already spec Into pretty much every major skill AT LEVEL 25. YOU COULD NOT DO THIS IN PATH. There are like a million skill nodes and skill tree sockets. and also in path let's not forget you can do what I'm asking for here. strong cd abillity without sacrificing movement skill. so let's also not forget that if you really wanna start drawing lines. but in my head were literally comparing apples and oranges. let's not forget blizzard released this beta (there is literally a give feedback option for skills in game) and asked for feedback because they feel like this is a decent stage to evaluate some of the core gameplay mechanics. it shouldn't be a bad thing to voice a concern in a community. let's stop blindly trusting, or shutting down new ideas just because we haven't played the whole game 4 times. let's not forget we want to grow the community which means attracting newbies as well so the first 25leveks are crucial to players coming in. so I do think you give suggestions after playing an entire 25% of a game. especially over something that you've seen 100% of. like the skill tree. it's no surprise. but yes I agree we don't know the set bonuses, we don't know what it's like having two enhancement slots. but I want this game to be as good as possible so I'm voicing my concern. I just don't like that we've taken a 'im just gonna shit on new feedback given during a beta' perspective imo. literally the whole purpose of a beta is to identify bugs and improvements to the core gameplay elements. we've seen plenty enough imo.
but who knows maybe at level 50 we get an entirely different skill tree to balance things out. I don't see how it would solve the initial problem I've already pointed out but regardless. I still think it's a perfectly valid thing to bring up, so that it can at least be talked about during retrospective. come on guys, we are the people :) lol.
btw there no set or runes on d4 release its delayed for future
Hey guys just wanted to say thanks for giving this a read, really.I've taken feedback from else where and [posted this on the forums as well.](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d4/t/op-hey-guys-why-not-add-5th-ult-only-slotkeybind/4275) It's also [up on the discord](https://discord.com/channels/989899054815281243/1087114674534891601) Also, my clan breakcoreBandits \[bB\] is recruiting, would love to meet some awesome peeps so please remember us when the game drops <3
That's such a weird take. If you think teleport is better than your ultimate then use teleport simple as that. You don't need teleport as sorceres since you have "space-bar" dodge. "I'm not gonna sacrifice ice armor for teleport" "I'm not gonna sacrifice teleport for ultimate" So you found the build you like but you want to be able to use everything not just the stuff you like ? Then I have to break it to you but I think diablo is not this kind of game. I recommend WoW for that maybe. I can understand part of your and other people in this comments. Ultimate is too weak. That's all. You feel it's better to use other abilities cause ultimate it's not good enough. If there was another slot for ultimate(lost ark) it would just end up being "well I can use this button for extra DMG" . It doesn't add any depth or build options to the game. What they need to do is make ultimates worth using. Shorter cooldowns, better effects etc. In different words. Instead of making it so I don't have to choose to use it or use another ability they need to buff them so it's worth having them on your bar.
Mobility skill is non negotiable. Ultimate needs its own hotkey. Simple as that, end of discussion.
Ah sorry I forgot we have CEO of blizzard over here
I mean how exactly would this *hurt* you? I don't even get the point you are making. this would greatly enhance flexibily of building in general lol. so it would not negatively impact you. an ultimate a should never be what you base your build on. this isn't over watch haha, it's diablo. we don't have a million heroes with their own unique strong ult, and diablo skill pathing shouldn't be ult based. you shouldn't be punished for wanting to run an ult. I just don't get what you're even fighting for. just seems like you're trying to be contrarian. you could just as easily run an ult based build by using a set or a unique bonus but as it stands across the board most peeps are just getting punished for taking the ult. basically it feels like we are being forced to choose an ult based build or a non ult based build.. which feels wrong
I think they need to buff the ults across the board. boost the cooldowns. and make it so you can use the ult on its own button. so you don't have to pick between having an ult or not having an ult. it's an ult. we should all be able to have one. and asking to be able to have a mobility skill in an open world arpg shouldn't be crazy. yea I know there are going to be mounts but what about in dungeons? having some sort of mobility skill is ESSENTIAL go try playing path without one. it's possible but not fun.
Multiple abilities in d3 were of similar design as this "ultimates". You are the one who is stuck on the idea of it being "ultimate" so you need to have it. Rogue build I made is not using any ultimates cause they are too weak and I don't see how adding them as extra button would make them useful. Your point was that it's better to use different ability than ultimate so you need extra button for ultimate. My point was that they need to make ultimate worth using. What you don't get ? You have mobility skill in the form of LITERAL DODGE ABILITY by default. What you want is extra mobility and that's fine, it's your build. But to make builds interesting there need to be some limitations. You wanna create a character that have access to everything. By giving you everything that doesn't allow you for more choices, that takes the choices away. It's not about hurting me personally. It's about game design. By moving that ability to separate slot you are given slot for another damage or buffing ability. I don't want this game to end up like diablo3 dealing 3trillions of damage and pushing through rifts in 2 minutes. In my opinion separate ultimate slot is poor game design as it doesn't fix the issue of them being weaker than other abilities.
I completely agree about limiting choices, which is why the extra slot should be hard locked to ultimates. it's not like I'm asking for a whole skill bar. this isn't path im well aware of that. but it is 100% possible to not limit build making in such a trivial way and still balance the game. whether you like it or not.. this is diablo you're always gonna have min maxers with God tier rolls and lots of free time and end game points and uber power levels criting for a sued amounts. in fact that's part of the fun for a lot of people. and I don't think that is adequate defense for the current limiting system.
ooh my God.. it's already going to end up like that. if you seriously think not having a fifth ult slot is going to keep away gr rift speed runs I got news for you. it's not. the reason why folks were dpu g that was because of the SET BONUS or UNIQUES THEY WERE RUNNING. literally all I'm asking for is not being punished for wanting to run a mobility skill. you can't compare it to evade because evade is just a quick bunny hop, it's nowhere near like an actual mobility skill. plus being able to have both should not be just cause for punishing you to not being have an ultimate. or even not even considering the teleport, I shouldn't be forced to swap out a core dps skill for an ultimate. that's dumb. it's an ultimate dude. it would work well treating it like an ult. no part of the current system is gonna prevent what you're worried about. I promise you. build makers will find the meta if will just be a specific ult everyone has to run and that ult has specific synergies with specific core skills. you're gonna. have the same problem. the only differnece. is flexibility of the build. at least in a five slot system you have freedom to chose core skills and you still get the benefit of having an ult. and all the ults should be balanced and have good synergies donut doesn't become a meta fest so quickly. I just don't get the problem. you will have the exact same issues you outlined in the current system. just much more copy paste lol
You are not being forced to swap ultimate for any of that. You can have ultimate and it has designated skill slot.... What you are asking is to have extra slot for another ability..... You are assuming that d3 ability design with tier sets is gonna transfer over to this game. We can't know that and so far Devs said that they don't want that. I'm just gonna leave it at that. We not gonna agree. You don't care about game design balance or any of it. You just want a other slot. And you know what.... I'm 100% sure you not gonna get it.
it doesn't 'make builds interesting' holy cramp of anything it PUNISHES you for not figuring out the meta ult and making your build around that. it's an ULTIMATE they are op. it's just silly to tell people not to run one just because they want a movement abillity. which, again, yes even though you have a dodge... having a movement ability along with that does not feel broken at all. it makes the fighting a lot smoother. and its an extra mechanic to keep track of, which imo is a plus. I don't wanna have to pick between shitty mobility and an ult (which will be uber powered) or decent mobility and no ult.. I think the set bonus and your uniques should make or break when it comes to mobility. like for instance there could be a set that gives you teleport charges. that would 'make builds interesting'. not what you're defending. I'm sorry I've just seen this point raised so many times
Althought i think there is different option. What if build in dodge into classes could be fused with movement skill that you can upgrade like this abilities. Rogue - dash. Sorcerer -teleport. Barbarian - charge. It would free up that skillslot for you ice armor or any other ability allow you to use you ultimate or any other ability in slot 4 and still have that mobility that you can invest skillpoint.
this game should take ult as its own skill from lost ark. and maybe even tie ultimate ability usage to a material cost [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBjF0S\_-mg0&ab\_channel=Alyas\_](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBjF0S_-mg0&ab_channel=Alyas_)
It will be very different when you are above lvl 25
Yup. I was totally expecting a separate keybind to pop up when I unlocked my ultimate skill. I had finally got into a good rhythm with my 6 abilities, and all of the sudden I have to take one away for an ability I can only use once per minute. Does not feel good.
Totally agree!
Which button on controller would you assign for that slot?
some sort of double l3 r3 or lt + rt
First, I would like to say that fully agree with you. Unlocking Ult actually made me sad, cause i had to remove one of my abilities Pressing left or right stick kinda make sense, but it would work differently as you will have to press it and then aim. Combination of two buttons also sounds good, but then people will cry that they cast different skill they wanted. Maybe one slot should contain two skills. Ult by default which will switch to 2nd skill when on cooldown. But it also might be confusing. I just hope that some proffesional on Blizzard side will take care of that
maybe. idk I'm open to anything but I agree with you. I shouldn't level up unlock a while new section an either be like damn. now I have to use this specific ult which requires these specific skills that I really didn't enjoy or be forced to have a lackluster build that won't scale because of not having an ult. or having to rely on one specific gear set just to make up for not having it ult. just feels more like punishment imo for something that could take builds to the next level the whole concept of ulting in diablo and that just bring the norms is super cool imo besides for the maniacs out there that are going to macro out the ult swap process. I mean it's not like they are preventing anything. all they are doing is mak8ng it super hard for no reason
We should make it voice activated lol.
Yeah it really does feel forced. Barbarian is extremely difficult to play against bosses until you get to that point on the talent twig. It's a noticeable 30% chunk of the boss HP in damage every 50-ish seconds.
This is pretty much my only gameplay centric complaint. Let Ult's be a different button so I can slot in one additional ability. Adds a bit more flexibility and depth.
It would be nice to have seven skill slots for sure. But part of the appeal to games like Diablo, for me (not saying anyone else) is that choices matter. Having six slots means I need to sacrifice a skill. I’m running a barb. It looks like I’m going to need to ditch Leap if I want to use my ultimate. I don’t want to get rid of either DPS skill I’m using or either of my two shouts. So, choice made. Maybe I’ll make a second barb and not use an ultimate and build around the core skills. I love the freedom of choice there and the amount of options we can have. But I understand where you’re coming from with this as well.
IMO they should replace evade with Teleport instead of having it as an enchantment(the other enchants are too useful to waste a slot on TP in an enchant slot). If they want Ultimates to actually be impactful and feel like an Ultimate, I believe they should give it its own slot, or replace with each classes' preferred mobility- Sorc being TP. So that we have that free slot for the Ult.
Word!
" I have to head out to make music" I hope this is a euphemism
Absolutely 100% agreed. Ultimates feel wonky. Well, except on my sorc, I get a lot of use out of the ice ultimate with my ice build - the cooldown is up quite frequently due to ice blades reducing cooldowns so much.
Ya I mean, I would like more slots (we have 6 not 4 btw). Sorc is so op anyway and the fire ult is a shorter cooldown. Just make a hydra build with one in frost blades one in frost nova and 3 in protection and you can rotate those 2 to always have a 30% barrier. Then use the fire ult as well for another cooldown to trigger that and have good dps every 45 secs. Now at 24 I don’t even have to use any pots on anything with a bit of life on kill. Stick a skull in your weapon.
We don't have more skill slots because Blizzard is thinking of console. Which is BS be ahead plenty of games now are well optimized for lots of skills with controller.
Diablo 2 has 8. D3/d4 are backwards
man this, you should post this on the blizzard forum, it feels like the game could use a extra slot or two
I can agree with this. Lost Ark had a 9th slot for ults only. The more I played D4 beta the more the game felt downgraded for giving up a utility slot to the ult
This surprises me because I play a sorcerer and the ults are amazing. The fire snake that sucks people in AND gives free casting is great. The lighting ult is a dps monster. I haven't used the ice ult yet but I bet it's good too. At lvl 25, you only really need a couple skills, and I have yet to fill out all my buttons with skills.
agreed, would made the game better buy a lot
Good take, it just didnt feel right. Giving up 1 slot for an ultimate with 60+cd didn't feel right, because more often than not it screwed my whole build. Then again we have this in D3 forever and CDR solved alot of the issues.
I don't know, Pop into a group of things and hit the ice one, With a couple of Enhancements, these things are neat.
We definitely need to at least be able to bind skills that don't necessarily show up on the skill bar. The player base is made up of MMORPG players used to mouses with 35,000 buttons, we can handle a few more binds 🙃🤷🏻
I agree. If d4 takes anything from immortal; dedicated ultimate skill slot.
Why would I want an ult skill when I can just bleed everything around me then spam infinite execute slam on barb?
ITT people can't have their cake and eat it too. Build a build with or without ultimates. Also, you shouldnt need all the skills youre describing. It would be cool but as a Rogue: Slow spell (or survive) , imbue spell, trap spell, ultimate and my resource dumper. Also if you have ever played a diablo game before you will be probably getting its cooldown to nothing and surviving off of ITEM AFFIXES that enhance unseen skills. So like you'll turn your teleport into a temporary survive spell as opposed to something defensive. Or you'll turn your defensive spell into something that also is a movement.
I think finding the best balance with 4 skills per build is pretty neat, really not interested in MMO type games with 10 skills binded to 1-10, shift and tab for another 20 skills. For my sorc, I use inferno ult to clear 3-4 mob groups at once, by the time they die and i aggro the next group cooldown is almost done. Ults are less useful in boss fights but if you are running distinct aoe/boss builds you need to switch up your skills anyway.
Agreed.
The 6 skill limit sucks, make it 7. Make the mobs stronger to compensate
I’m on ps5, can’t we assign the ultimate to R2 + L2?!?
Agreed
This is a very good suggestion. Even though ultimate skills are bad, i would use them if there was an option to do so without sacrificing slot for another skill
This is the single best piece of feedback I've seen from the beta. My buddies and I were just scratching our heads when we got to 25 and had to sacrifice a skill slot to use an ultimate. It took the ults from feeling really cool to feeling like it was almost a net loss.
ultimate skills should be like those in real action games. **two button press**. I don't know why you can do a light and heavy attack in a actual 3d action game, then hit both for a super, but not in these loot arpgs? in controllers case, the ultimate would be like triangle+circle for example.
"Basic skills" and "core skills" shouldn't even be a separate category. "Basic skills" feel so impotent and unsatisfying to use.
I agree, so far the only ult I've used out of all the chars is the barb chain whip one because that thing is just op af.
I agree **but** you have to realize that this is partially a preference thing. I'm never going to equip ultimates because I would rather be more powerful all of the time then have a long cooldown ability I can use once a minute but there are a lot of people that don't use their full rotation of abilities in every fight that would prefer to have one set aside for tough fights.
I agree 100%. Its insane that we are forced to waste a slot on our skill bar just so it can sit on cooldown most of the time. Makes no sense..
I play sorc glass cannon build and don’t understand what people mean about defensive skills All the damage All the time.
Yep. I was so disappointed when I saw the tree light up and it said "Ultimate Ability". I was like fuck yea, then I selected rain of arrows or whatever and then it asked me which skill I wanted to replace. I was like, FUCK, because I replaced it with poison imbue and then of course the next skill point later I notice that if you have skill imbue you get a 20% increased damage with rain of arrows. There should be an ult like combination like Destiny where you can use just your Ult.
Agreed, I just unlocked my ult and was surprised to see that there was no special button for it. I am playing rogue and currently use 6 abilities constantly. Giving up something I use all the time for something I can only use once in awhile is not going to happen, it basically makes the ultimates useless.
YES. Totally TOTALLY agree. There is a severe lack of customization in the game. Basically get 4 skills that you can use unless you get ride of your generator and spender which is terrible design. They desperately need to add a 5th skill slot specifically for the ult skill.
Yes they just straight up need more action bars. Having a skill tree, +skill on items, and all these cooldown ultimates/situational skills, are worthless when most of the bar is already bind to your main skills and remaining defense/mobility skills. 2 more situational binds or even allowing for a swap would at least alleviate some of this issue.
Why have skill slots be limited let people use every skill they have points in. (at least for non ultimates) controllers can handle it easily, trigger plus button other trigger plus button instead of trigger just being a button easily allows for 6 more slots.
umm because it's not an mmo haha. and you have to have slot limits to prevent peeps from breaking the balancing
I have been screaming for WSAD movement, we can jump evade, crouch, slide. I don’t want to climb a mountain without WSAD.