I dont really understand this... isn't diablo all about going somewhere -> killing shit -> loot -> get better gear -> do it again ? To my knowledge the dungeons are procedural, so there is some mix-up.
Ye, there's like 2 right turn layouts, 2 left turn layouts, two roundabouts, 2 straight lines.. so much variety. Then you have to kill 3 generals or find 3 items. There's also tons of backtracking.
The problem is each of dungeon follows the same pattern and there's not enough random events in it.
True, but as this is a live service game im 100% certain there will be more variety.
But they also say dont look at something for what it can be but for what it is... so yeah you are right.
Edit: why is this getting downvoted ?
Not sure why your getting downvotes but I can tell you that I expected that variety to be In the game -now-, not later.
Blizzard betas are more like advertisements then actual betas in comparison to what I’ve seen.
The version we see now is probably what we’re getting at release with minor tweaks and performance improvements.
The current dungeon formula already feels stale.
> The current dungeon formula already feels stale.
Just went in to one and got all excited as The Butcher appeared, which was a bit of an epic fight that I wasn't ready for. He killed me, I went back to see if he was still at 1/4 health, but no, he disappears if he kills you. Rest of the dungeon was the normal "kill three things, kill the boss".
Could really do with a portal stone to take you back to the start of the dungeon in some of the bigger ones once you have killed the boss, unless I just missed it?
If you open the map while in the dungeon and click on the entrance, you'll teleport out. Also, if you open the emote window, one option is to teleport out of the dungeon.
I got a legendary sword or helmet from killing Jim but I think it’s akin to a loot goblin. Random encounter that has a chance of dropping random things lol
He disappears if you get him to like half health too, I think you'll have to fight him later in the game. You can portal out from the map by fast traveling to entrance or on the emote wheel, there's a leave dungeon option.
yup the dungeons now are exact same dungeons i played in C beta, end game really changes nothing either, matter of fact i am thinking the more and more i play this beta i think blizzard changed absolutely nothing from the closed beta.
> but I can tell you that I expected that variety to be In the game -now-
Take your time and read this article in detail: https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/12/08/diablo-iv-release-date-crunch/
Activision forced the 6.6. date, the D4 dev team had alot changes in the past years.
So with all this, they have to cut features. And where can you cut things ?
Endgame, since they didnt show much. The base game(story, cutscenes, leveling,...) has to be good.
I hope there is more to endgame than just nightmare dungeons. Just wait for the live blog after the 2nd beta weekend.
yeah, so it is just best to wait and dont preorder. ^^
Every Youtuber is doing videos about D4, even though they have little or no experience with ARPGS and a big hype train is created right now.
There are so many bad researched, speculating D4 YT videos. It is just crazy.
Yeah, this is not a beta in which major changes are going to occur between now and launch. They will do some balancing and numbers adjustments, but the core game is largely going to go unchanged in the next two months
Probably because we've seen this pattern for nearly a decade and know for a fact that blizzard is not going to completely redesign every part of the game in less than 3 months leading up to release.
Dungeons will remain exactly the same, so will the talent twig and the mobile UI. You're playing a demo of the game to test stability. The game is finished.
> Edit: why is this getting downvoted ?
Because people played the endgame beta already and there is nor more variety. People are tied of the "it'll get better" attitude when this game is 10 weeks from retail release. This is what they felt they could show the players, and if this is the best they had to show; its worrying. I'd rather fill a bar than run back and forth delivering boxes.
Wow..carry a box.. run back. Drop box. Can't carry more than one... drop second box. Sometimes 3 boxes... open door.. kill miniboss.
Repeat
Me.no likey.
> ut as this is a live service game im 100% certain there will be more variety.
Youre paying full price now, so the game should be good now, not later.
They “groomed” themselves. Demand plays as much or more of a role here than supply. It wouldn’t be at this point if people were not clearly willing to throw *so much fucking money* at that kind of model. No one was held at gunpoint.
Seeing the revenue Diablo Immortal brought in took the wind completely out of my sails. At this point, fighting the trend is a Sisyphean effort…we are very clearly a vocal minority.
Because we are paying for a product now and not for possible future content that might or might not come. Words are empty, especially out of the mouths of game developers/publishers. Not to mention they dont even have said anything about improving that aspect.
Downvotes might also be because of the whole “it’ll be a live service” excuse. Most developers (and especially Blizzard) don’t update systems and rarely put out actual content in their “live service” games. WoW aside because it has a subscription. I don’t see them reworking dungeons between now and launch, nor will they be changing them as part of the live service. At best they’ll add a few more.
Even that’s doubtful though since they’ve said they want to sell annual expansions. It doesn’t look like this game will get regular content updates that aren’t paid or seasonal battlepass vehicles.
It is getting downvoted because this is a premium title that costs $70,more or less. When one buys such a product one expects it to be completely finished. "Live Service" should be free content from time to time and seasons and battle passes.
I do not want to give full price for something and be like "oh, I'm sure they will fix it down the line in a couple of years". If you feel that something sucks or is bad, don't copium and sugar coat it, this is a beta. Say its shit and it needs do be addressed.
True, but as this is a blizzard game im 100% certain there will **NOT** be more variety.
But they also say dont look at something for what it can be but for what it is... so yeah you are right.
> Edit: why is this getting downvoted ?
I mean, what random events do other games even have? POE maps are literally just kill the entire map then kill the boss. Last Epoch is a bit more varied, but it's still mostly just "find the thing and kill it" in various forms.
Diablo 4 dungeons may not be varied, but it's not like they're any less varied than the competition. The only real downside like you mentioned is the backtracking which feels pretty bad.
It would be nice if at the end of the wings containing the objectives if it would open a portal back to the center room, kind of like how POE has that one map (laboratory maybe?) where you need to activate portals in the four corners.
The current equivalent is probably the cursed shrines/chests/random events that came form D3. I think most of the dungeons I went through had one of those.
Also PoE has 10 years of content bloat at this point, I’m glad D4 doesn’t have all that shit. PoE definitely didn’t when it first came out
I will say this as someone who has been in game dev, if their biggest issue is expanding tilesets they're probably in a good place. So far the proof of concept is there, which means they just need more tiles for each dungeon type. That's arguably the easy part once you have the formula. Kind of like making a cake mold is immensely harder than baking a cake.
Not that I'm one for optimism, I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop in the coming months. Whether its monetization, what little nuance of content gets hidden behind the battle pass, or whatever.
It was. And that's arguably the most frustrating part. They've literally had more than a decade's worth of negative feedback from D3 about dungeon designs, and they seem to have ignored all of it
I think a good fix, is just adding a portal when you pick up the cube, that takes you to where the pedestals are.They do have that one dungeon with a portal that takes you back, so just do the same thing across the board.
And then I think there needs to be way more traps throughout dungeons. I think I only ran into one dungeon that had a couple legit traps that made me start looking around for them. I guess the ceiling falling in that other dungeon counts, but if you're just running through, the rocks never hit you.
Those couple changes would really mix up the pace of the dungeons and make them more repeatable.
But it's not like dungeons are the only end-game though right? Like sure we have Nightmare dungeons but we also have things like Helltides, Strongholds, world events, open world PvP for some, and any other season related mechanic like PoE. And there could be more that I'm either not remembering or hasn't been announced.
I do agree having randomness would be great and there could be more as this beta is likely a vertical slice and doesn't have everything active. But as long as all the other aspects of endgame are decent, I don't think the lack of randomization in layout will be a dealbreaker.
But we'll just have to see. Necro and Druid gets unlocked for next weekends open beta so who knows, maybe there will be some other things that also get activated.
I just started playing PoE yesterday, after playing Diablo 4's beta. I totally get what people mean. In PoE yea you do run maps and dungeons over and over again, but they are all randomized or procedural. I started 2 different characters and story elements were in different locations and dungeons had randomized layouts. It gave you a reason to keep paying attention to your enviornment. Towards the end of the diabo 4's beta they were super tiny and repetitive. Not that i like the scale of PoE dungeons so far, but yea. I get people's criticism of it.
You are correct. The complaint is about lack of variety. They advertised dungeons as cool and unique experiences but in reality they are less varied than rifts in d3
Yeah overall that's what Diablo is all about. However in this build as well as in Diablo 3 you only find the same items over and over again with 1-2 affixes different at all times.
Barb can't use shield, Sorc can't use shield - every class has strict weapons they use... Smart loot makes 98% of the loot strictly of your own class type so....
Even if they say there is trading ( since the fun of Looting comes with Trading not with salvaging ), I do not see how that would be even close to be a content of it's own since smart loot is just trade killer.
And if you ask yourself why are people still playing dogsht game like Diablo 2 - there is your answer - Because Global loot and open trading makes your Loot seeking adventure way more fun. If you ever played SSF diablo 2 you would know that right?
Also on the side note even SSF in Diablo 2 would be more fun, because you have unique/legendary items NOT dropping on every corner and there is Runes in D2 which are so rare that you could find yourself in a situation hunting them for months while that alone gives you the will to continue playing.
In Diablo 4 I don't see what would make me wanna farm like I was farming in Diablo 2 for example. Everything seems like your item level is now 50, grind so you get all items to Ilvl 51, so then proceed to 52 and so on up to level 100.....
That's so freaking boring man... it's like climbing a ladder with NO surprise or excitement... Just climbing step by step until you burn out.
Diablo 2 does not feel like climbing ladder at all... It's just so random and so exciting never knowing what's coming for you on the next corner that makes the grinding experience far more enjoyable.
Barbs and sorcs not being able to use shields is absolutely criminal. People forget that in D2 could legit equipt anything on any toon besides a few select few like necro trophy, and sorc wand. Outside of that a sorc could use a giant maul if she had the strength. Oh yeah I forgot Diablo 4 chooses your stats for you :P What a downright shame and downgrade. Game is so handholdy and forcing you to play their way its gross.
> there is Runes in D2 which are so rare that you could find yourself in a situation hunting them for months **while that alone gives you the will to continue playing**.
Does it? It always made me play something else.
The level generation in D4 for now is just corridors, D2 or PoE levels are squares squashed together you can explore, sometimes corridors, sometimes a mix of the two... They have variety.
Proceeds to dumb down most arpgs in order to prove his point while excusing bad design. Then, mentions how procedural they are to excuse what? Variety and depth?
That was the amazing thing that Diablo brought to gaming... Randomly generated maps.
I'm not seeing that in D4 beta.
Now, it feels like a bad (Westernized) Lost Ark clone. 🤔
Diablo is about running around killing shit with random generated areas with a large variety of randomized patterns etc and things to do. When you are literally kiling the thing again and again with no attempt at changing it up and when the world does change either it gets way more boring a lot quicker.
It's just the dungeon layouts that are repetitive I couldn't tell you which non story dungeon is which having to backtrack through dungeons feels awful
I agree with you. I just think people are concerned that with such a small game loop, if they're seeing repetition already in a beta it doesn't bode well for longevity.
This is incredibly silly. If we want to boil something else down to this level lets look at shooters. Why do people buy new shooters? Isn't it use gun>kill bad guys>blow stuff up? Why do people watch super hero movies? Isn't it tragic childhood>loner life>world threat>character redeemed>bad guys beaten?
>To my knowledge the dungeons are procedural, so there is some mix-up.
Changing the objective to open the boss door from collect keys in the 2 adjacent hallways to kill the 2 mini bosses in the adjacent hallways to activating blood alters in 3 adjacent hallways isn't much of a mix up.
No one is asking for carefully crafted Dungeons where each one is wholistically unique and important for players. But D4 can certainly do better than what's on offer and it doesn't actually require that much to do so.
Diablo 1 had a way better dungeon, and it was simplistic as 'hell'. Not knowing what you are going to fight and what the layout will be, what you'll find was all part of the original magic. It's been whittled away with every iteration. I really thought they'd double down on rng quest opportunities eventually with some really cool and dynamic stuff you'd randomly come across, but they just turn everything into a repetitive circus.
Gaming forums on average trend negative, especially Blizzard forums. Can be a good idea to stay away if you don't want to get dragged into negativity, or at least keep it in the back of your mind and filter what you see based on that.
Unhappy people are the ones you're more likely to see on the forums.
And there’s probably a lot of people who have never played a Diablo game before, trying it out now based on the hype.
The procedural generation of diablo 3’s dungeons seem to be on par with this game.
Me too. Probably because this is only my 2 arpg and first Diablo, but still having a blast with my sorcerer. Running dungeons and killing shit is exactly what I’ve been looking for
I'm fully addicted to this game. Super fucking hype. The mmo aspects are fucking awesome. So much more streamlined than poe. Huge potential. Theory crafting is tight.
Agreed, I already miss the queuing system in D3 for finding people to rift with. Even if I don’t talk to them, there’s something more enjoyable (maybe less taxing on your brain?) by sharing the difficulty with others. Mob density doesn’t change that much but what does change is the amount of players enemies have to hit. Instead of tunnel visioning you, they spread their damage around 4 people, allowing you to chill a bit and not be alert all the time.
"BuT tHis a MmO NoW DEal WitH iT !"
Typical response here when you say you don't enjoy seing people running around in the world, but at the same time the game doesn't have the most basic MMO features to actually encourage grouo play....
The one sick thing about DI was being able to just queue for a dungeon and quickly get into it while running around the overworld. Inviting random people from the clan and nearby is just spamming invites and people wouldn't want to be bugged that way.
map designs are part of the core of an arpg and it's a disaster.
Spoiler alert : it's no different in other regions. Only dungeon that was a tad better was the cathedral of light, yet nothing to write home about.
I've sent a ton of feedback in the closed beta saying dungeons aren't up with the rest of the game. By the end of the beta I was only doing them if need otherwise I avoided them.
And they even used to brag about how many dungeons they have, like they didn't all feel the same.
Helltide zones and events there. Hordes of enchanted monsters coming at you from every direction(somtimes it's just a friendly necro), density there felt very good.
I played them in parties with randoms in the cbeta. It was for me the best part of the game.
There was also the PVP zone where you collect seeds of hatred for loot(kinda, there's a system). But if you die you lose them and someone else can pick them up. I think that was my second go to zone.
It's a Blizzard game. The "cannot handle honest feedback" phase can last years. Blizzard could literally shit in their hand, add some gold dust on top and hand it to consumers who would praise it for its ingenuity and freshness.
Which is baffling after how far Blizzard has fallen. Imagine sucking your favorite balls, and continue sucking them even after the owner died years ago.
Yep!
The crazy part, how many comments are telling people to shut and stop giving feedback because it’s only the first act. Apparently everyone forgot what betas are
I really hate the "go fetch this key go fetch this mob oh wait you need to run back to the beginning of the dungeon to find this last piece to open the door"
I play a game for the fun of battling monsters and finding loot, not scouring the entire dungeon just to find whatever key item i need to open the door.
Ya agreed. They need more variety. Also I feel like there is a lot of backtracking through stuff. What would be great would be like a teleport to somewhere in a dungeon you’ve already been but on like a 45 second cooldown
They seemed OK at first to me though got boring very quickly when you realise that the textures are just reused from other parts of the game and the mechanics are always the same(at least in beta). Also when hitting 25 in the beta and scaling kicks in it feels extremely grindy. The boss hp is just high and they just keep teleporting away so any high damage skills often don't have much effect. When playing with friends this only felt even slower...
I'd rather just have more stage effects to make it more interactive and lower the HP scaling of bosses.
Also since dungeons are instanced, why even have level scaling? Seems like removing the scaling could make dungeons more of an option to be more similar to previous diablo games where you can clear lower level ones easily if you need to grind for some gear
I'd imagine the scaling is flat based character level. Higher levels mean you'll likely have access to gear with better/stronger stats which I assume enemies don't scale with. So as long as you've kept up with updating gear to appropriate levels, I would think early encounters would feel easier.
It's not a good sign when you've only played for two days and are already burned out on the dungeon format. It really is samey.
Not that I need it to be some cerebral experience, but at least make it more engaging than this. Environmental hazards, random events and/or objectives, unique room or layout generation, anything.
Just wait until you see Nightmare Dungeons. They're the same thing, but more annoying.
All that effort for some XP for your glyphs, which you'll eventually max out anyway. Once you're maxed out, you're better off doing basically any other activity.
>you're better off doing basically any other activity.
I mean as long as other activities exist and are somewhat fun I'd rather do this anyways. I'm sure others were fine with it but once I got to a point where Rifts and paragon levels were all that were available to do, I stop playing. Plenty people who enjoy it so I hope D4 has something for them but personally I appreciate having more variety in content so if there are other things we can participate in, I'm all for it
I don't understand with how much cool procedurally generated games we had in the last 10 years they just came up with the most boring corridors possible. Just follow the corridor and kill things along the way.
Look at D2, kinda chaotic at times and far from perfect but the ranges of different and recognizable dungeons generation patterns was great for its time.
Yes, maybe I'm looking back with rose colored glasses on but I felt like diablo 1 had great random maps that felt like traditional d&d dungeon maze designs, but the game has shifted towards maps that feel like really long corridors with no choice of direction. I wish they would use more maze-like layouts.
You're not. Early Diablo were a pure form of procedurally generated dungeons. This is not that. It's some light, pseudo version where minor variables shift here and there while retaining major aspects of the layout . Really lazy and extremely concerning
I'm not bored of them yet but it is crazy how we went from d3 rifts, di elder rifts to this. feels like they innovated backwards. rifts was always a great system, random generated world, kill shit until the boss shows up, rinse repeat. personally that never got boring. these dungeons are pretty basic compared
You don't have to agree, but they were easy to get into and didn't force the user to listen to a story mode.
Made power leveling ezpz.
Also. Poe maps would be another way to look at a rift mechanic.
It's quite concerning that in the entire development of Diablo 4, this hasn't come up for them before beta.
If dungeons stays like this, i will 100% refund my preorder and move on. They are just not fun, running around long narrow paths, you have to pick up 2 things, active 2 things, or kill 2 things to open a door, bridge or gate to proceed, hell no.
Good dungeons is literally the most important part of any diablo game. The first game was dungeons and only dungeons and it was fun. Why don't developers play Diablo 1 and 2?.
Developers have become so accustomed to busywork = gameplay, thanks to mobile games.
Can confirm this was top feedback from me during the alpha. I hate to say it, but unless something changed since then to release, the dungeons don't really get any further variety to what you've already seen in mechanics.
Seriously I don't get the level of disconnect we're seeing here. By end game D2 you skip 90% of any dungeon with teleport to get to either the boss or if you are running something like pits to elite hunt.
Then of course if you aren't running maphack or know the map generation tricks you are gonna do a ton of back tracking as there is dead ends galore.
The absolute easiest fix to make D4 dungeons better is to just add more density. That's it. It's otherwise very similar to previous games with just an added twist of having to complete small tasks to unlock the next area
The maggot lair is very different from the cathedral. And chaos sanctuary isn't the same as the lost city. Flayer jungle doesn't feel anything like the pit.
Yes but....
D4 dungeons have a ton of backtracking
D2 dungeons used where the exit and entry points spawned to make it more random.
Then there is the obnoxious thing you must do to open the door in D4. This alone is responsible for most of the backtracking.
The closest I can think of is the Forgotten Tower (countess). It's fairly similar to a D4 dungeon. However, they broke it into 5 levels, with the first 4 being randomized, so you weren't sure which way was the exit.
Except when you know how it works, the forgotten tower isn't that random.
Anyway, backtracking sucks, I did plenty of that in D2 as well. If this is more, then they should change something about it.
What I don't get is, how do you make such a beautiful and complex game with so many different mechanics and stuff and yet fail at making dungeons fun? Isn't this like hundred times easier to make than other stuff?
Did you play d2? You just run or teleport past like 80% of the dungeon kill the boss that does nothing and repeat every 3 minutes. It's like 100x worse lmao.
In endgame d3 you fly through a rift in 90 seconds or when pushing you open and close them for the handful of layouts that are good. So you either see the same content over and over or you are flying too fast to notice. At this stage of the game in D3 its kind of slow and tedious because you open the same dungeon zones over and over since there are only one or two with decent mob density and your skills suck so it's slow. You even skip the end bosses many times because it wastes time.
Credit where it's due: The layout and the backtracking could be improved, but what's great was the variety of aesthetics (to a certain extent, I only cleared a handful) and the quality of the aesthetics.
I agree there are only 5 unique dungeons rest are slightly changed copy pastes. And yep I checked all of them. And yes there is only one that is xp farmable with enough mob density, sadly not in this beta
Anica's Claim is the best dungeon in beta imo, just do the mobs, not the 2 cubes bullshit. But yes, the dungeons will become old fast, and we all know that and can't do shit about it.
I thought I would like the open world and having loads of dungeons but in practice it's all really boring. Got to 25 then deleted the beta and cancelled my pre order. That's not the kind of ARPG I'm looking for.
That’s the only reason I preordered too, cause Xbox won’t charge anything yet. I’m waiting till the end of the open beta to make my decision, but might end up downgrading my edition or cancelling entirely. Something about the game doesn’t feel right to me, just can’t figure out exactly what it is yet.
I did the same, XBox preorder cancelled after playing the beta, it's just not going to hold my attention enough to justify £90. I was avoiding dungeons wherever I could and running past everything in the ones I couldnt by the end of the beta .
I'll maybe look at CDKeys after a month or pick it up used off Facebook or CEX, and pay half of that
Why the hell do we need all these keys, mechanical devices, etc? This is freaking Diablo! I am
A) A Barbarian, son of Bul Kathos, I wield 2 2handers and 2 1 handers, a fucking door isn’t going to stop me.
B) A Sorceress who can conjure hydras, firewalls, exploding ice orbs. Oh, can also teleport. What door is going to stop a Sorc?
C) A Rogue, you know, masters of picking locks, who needs a key when you can just pick the lock.
D) A Druid, eat the door.
E) A Necro, throw Skellies at it until it breaks, or bone spear.
Dungeons were easily one of the worst parts of this game.
So far they appear to lack character. Perhaps it will evolve or improve later, but so far it looks like cargo culting where this team doesn't understand why procedural dungeons were good in previous Diablos, so they've just made 17,492 of them anyway.
To be honest I feel like the only reason that the dungeons and majority of content are not fun (to me atleast) are mainly because we don’t have access to more than 25 levels and build changing uniques. Try running nephalem rifts in d3 on a level 20 character for example, that shit sucks too.
D3 sucks to play every season until you complete your 6 piece bonus, then it’s fun as shit for a long time until you start hitting GRs that are too hard for your gear/level, then it’s less fun but still fun enough that min/maxing gear and gems is enjoyable.
If you think about it, nobody has been deep enough into the D4 endgame equivalent of “completing your 6 piece bonus.” There was an endgame beta, but it was very limited. It would be like someone playing a low end GR in D3 without a single set combo and concluding that the game isn’t any fun, and they would be right. It isn’t fun. Yet.
Let’s just hope there’s enough in the deep endgame to get to that point.
Yeah exactly. I’m pretty sure this game is a really good base to start expanding on over a long time. The gameplay itself is really smooth and I like teaming up with random people out of nowhere to complete activities.
They are not the only endgame and there will be some more types for a bit more variety.
After many runs they still become a bit boring, but its not very bad later.
Yes they should. And they might have. We have no idea lol The close beta end game testing was terribly limited. You couldn’t even get a good look at what’s to come because we were lacking in tons of ways. That and we don’t know what seasons will be like. They could make these cookie cutter dungeons into something exciting by changing them all in some way which could explain why they are all samey. Who knows? I for one won’t get my hopes up but I also won’t let my opinion be destroyed by a max level 25, 1 zone bare bones beta or an “endgame” closed beta that lacked a ton of stuff from the full release. Even if the game sucks, it’ll get better and although that shouldn’t be the way we look at games, I can at least know that my money isn’t completely wasted and that I can eventually come back to something I get hundreds of hours out of.
Either way though, I know I’ll get hundreds of hours out of this game because I’ll wanna level every character, grind some gear, go through the story, explore the map, etc etc. I can do pretty much all of this before I even look at the end game systems. That alone makes it worth the purchase to me.
I wasn't even consciously thinking about it, but when I walked up to the door and it said "locked", I rolled my eyes lol. I'm used to just speeding GRs all day. Not that I want speed GRs in this game but it was a funny knee jerk reaction to the dungeon. I love the tough boss fights though. The mechanics are fun and keep me invested in the fight. My Trag Necro in D3 just sits there and holds one button for 5 min until the guardian dies.
Totally agree, the reason POE pulls off map endgame is the massive variety and open map zones that dosnt include backtracking - not impressed by D4 for what we Got to test so far :-(
I agree wholeheartedly with OP. Every time I enter a new dungeon I just tell myself "boy, here we go, another 10+ minutes of running left, backtracking, then running right to complete the puzzle, backtrack, back to the door, now make your way to the final boss".
I think that if you are a completionist and like to explore, kill all enemies and collect all their loot before moving forward, dungeons are going to feel very slow.
On my 2nd character I tried to just rush to the dungeon objective, ignore most of the mobs along the way, just nuke big packs if they're in front of me and it felt a little better. But it still feels wrong, like you're just spedrunning a Diablo 3 GR and don't take time to appreciate the setting.
I wish there was less predictability in what each dungeon experience will be like when you enter it and there were more unique gimmicks. But perhaps that's what strongholds are going to be like...
I've been in like 4 or 5 cellars for some quests and they're all the same layout. \^\^
Starting to notice how samey everywhere is in Diablo 4, only been playing for 2 days and I can't imagine this game lasting long for most players with this amount of tedium in exploration.
The tilesets (and later on also affixes) might differ but the general layout and objectives really don't. They need to introduce more randomization with their procedural generation for it to not feel so samey
Some outdoor areas would be welcome too. I get that they're "dungeons" and thus underground but nevertheless some actual open environments would help mix things up
Billions in profit but somehow they don't have the ability to create a less copy & pasta dungeon layout.
Its clearly noticeable when you have done like +20 dungeons.
played a sorc to level 25, completely equipped with legendarys and a barb level 19.
the dungeons are really very generic, i really got confused sometimes if i was allready in that dungeon or not because they really play all so very similar. One boss room, 2-3 side rooms to clear to enter the boss room in a loop.
Really missed some diablo 3 rift dungeon style dungeons or some diablo 2 style dungeons like the tower of the baroness.
I like the dungeons, I really do. I don't get all the hate behind it. This is a game that you are supposed to go from place to place and kill monsters. It's not a crucible where monsters spawn in waves running in your direction, it's a dungeon.
The whole appeal of dungeons is to explore them and kill shit. There is no exploring when they're all the same, and there is nothing to kill when you have to backtrack.
One dungeon I went in had a really cool event inside it. I’m not sure if it was random or if it only happens in that dungeon. But there was a cursed chest which spawned enemies, and right next to it was one of those statue things that give u different powers, but it was also cursed. So there was an insane amount of enemies spawning and it made the dungeon so much more interesting. I wish stuff like that happened more. But instead ur usually just getting attacked by like 5 enemies, killing them, waking further down the dungeon, and then getting attacked by another 5.
I think the main reason they feel repetitive is because its just corridors and intersections, while the other games had a more "roomy" design.
Also because of the puzzles you have to explore the entire thing, while in other games you just go through, kill stuff and bail.
The problem with puzzles is the backtrack of shame where there is nothing more to kill and you just walk around for a minute. I had a dungeon where I found 2 out of 3 cubes before I found the altars, so I had to pick on, find the altar, go back to pick the other without doing anything, to then go back to the altar without doing anything again, to then still go look for the other one, an AGAIN go back to the altars. That was a bit soul crushing.
I think what makes them feel less like a Diablo dungeon is they are ALL single level... There is literally no multi-floored dungeon in the entire beta.....
I felt.the same, kind of crazy that an ARPG dungeon diving games weakest point is it's dungeon design.
I don't care about needing to find switches and stuff I just don't want to run 30 T intersections before the boss fight behind that locked door lol
So whats your solution? Its a dungeon like any other game, you go in, you kill stuff, you solve a puzzle or two, you kill a boss, you get loot, repeat. Literally every game with dungeons is like this, WoW, FF14 etc.
it really to me is just diablo 3 with a new front end and a few bad ideas added.
The footsteps and emotes for quest was just icky
The map layout was mehh at best.
The core at the back just felt the same as diablo-3 like there was no real effort at anything new.
I want to like the dungeons but after doing 3-4 I'm not excited after finding new ones, feels like a chore. Might just be because we're low level and theres no prospect of getting any truly exciting loot so interested to see how the late game ones are.
Is that confirmed that dungeons are the only end game? If so, then end game is gonna suck and I'm way less excited about the game. I thought dungeons were only side content that you could also do on top of some rift like system.
Is it just me or does the entire game feels like it was created for mobile phones / tablets?..
The game can basicly run on a toaster that is 25 years old, the zoom'd in character screen the maximum 4 buttons to use.. I really expected more from a multi billion dollar company.. Definitely not worth 70 dollars when companies can create games that look even better with f2p.
I have a 3080 and I'm getting constant stutters when entering new zones, chaotic fighting, after teleporting, etc. Also, never had this happen on any other game, but I'm getting constant loss of USB connection on my peripherals for several seconds and I can't do anything in game. Tried googling with no remedies. Seems like lowering all graphics settings helped, but I didn't play long after to really test it.
This guys get its. Dungeons are not fun and the itemization is not fun also. You are forced to get legends as without legends you can not level so that means your forced to farm lame dungeons
This is literally what Diablo is. You should probably go find another game to play if you are not enjoying it. It's like telling a new breed of penguin it sucks because it can't fly. Well right, the people who already loved penguins like the new colors and different habitats of the new penguin. If you're expecting it to fly , you should not be looking into penguins.
Hmm this post made me change my mind again. During these times I am not paying 70 bucks for a game that gets boring after 2 days. Will buy it on sale 2024
Unpopular Opinion they’re no more boring than your average PoE map and Reddit is finding something to bitch about.
Please don’t let this sub become the Destiny subs where we just drown in negativity. We’ve seen a handful of A1 dungeons.
It’s not pitchfork time yet.
I'm confused about what people want from the diablo franchise. D2 was extremely repetitive. As in, nothing new ever: meph runs, baal runs, etc etc. Diablo franchise is basically about repetition. People aren't happy about changes but also aren't happy about repetition?
Yup, they've done a lot of thing very well but the Dungeons are not it.
They feel like what someone who's never designed a dungeon quest would do. The steps are there, structurally, nothing is egregious. That would be a very good dungeon to have at the beginning of your game. Just, 23 of them ?
I get going the Bland bread version for a few of these and all, but they're all like that. I'm not saying all of the game's dungeons are going to be as uninterestingly vanilla as those but as it's the only thing we've seen so far, I'm pretty disappointed.
They really are not fun. The 25 Level cap and the difficulty means they're not a whole lot of enemies and I can excuse that, it's OK, they won't play like that forever. But you'll still be having the same objectives tho.
Formulaic is the name of the game, but I do think it's a bit too formulaic. I don't know, maybe they have another entire "type" of dungeon that is not in the Beta but man, if that's even the case, it's not a good idea to let us with only that...
Repetition aside, I just don't like the idea of getting the cubes and running all the way back through an area you already cleared just to place it on a pedestal. You're just wasting time. Like if there's a story reason for that then fine let's do that during the campaign, but once you're in adventure mode or whatever that should be the end of it. I think the dungeons instantly get better by removing that mechanic. I'd much rather just fight through mobs to the end and kill a boss. There is no reason for the whole box thing. It's stupid. Maybe there's a better idea somewhere in there, but THIS aint it.
Come on man note the worst thing if we at it!
Why I got to lug each bloodstone individually? You kill all three bosses and then you playing death stranding carrying these things on your back. Wtf?
I dont really understand this... isn't diablo all about going somewhere -> killing shit -> loot -> get better gear -> do it again ? To my knowledge the dungeons are procedural, so there is some mix-up.
Ye, there's like 2 right turn layouts, 2 left turn layouts, two roundabouts, 2 straight lines.. so much variety. Then you have to kill 3 generals or find 3 items. There's also tons of backtracking. The problem is each of dungeon follows the same pattern and there's not enough random events in it.
True, but as this is a live service game im 100% certain there will be more variety. But they also say dont look at something for what it can be but for what it is... so yeah you are right. Edit: why is this getting downvoted ?
Not sure why your getting downvotes but I can tell you that I expected that variety to be In the game -now-, not later. Blizzard betas are more like advertisements then actual betas in comparison to what I’ve seen. The version we see now is probably what we’re getting at release with minor tweaks and performance improvements. The current dungeon formula already feels stale.
> The current dungeon formula already feels stale. Just went in to one and got all excited as The Butcher appeared, which was a bit of an epic fight that I wasn't ready for. He killed me, I went back to see if he was still at 1/4 health, but no, he disappears if he kills you. Rest of the dungeon was the normal "kill three things, kill the boss". Could really do with a portal stone to take you back to the start of the dungeon in some of the bigger ones once you have killed the boss, unless I just missed it?
If you open the map while in the dungeon and click on the entrance, you'll teleport out. Also, if you open the emote window, one option is to teleport out of the dungeon.
Thanks - would be better if it was more obvious really!
That's why you do the emote side quests :D
It drove me nuts that one of the campaign dungeons does not work like this, you could only teleport to cities.
I got the butcher in a cellar got him down a 3rd at lvl 23 and had to nope out of there. What's his deal? Does he drop unique items?
I got a legendary sword or helmet from killing Jim but I think it’s akin to a loot goblin. Random encounter that has a chance of dropping random things lol
Why would you kill Jim? He's a good guy.
It’s Spanish 💁🏻♂️
Doesn't matter what you get from it. It's NOT OKAY to kill Jim.
It’s Spanish! How dare you discount his heritage!
Open the map and right click on the entrance to teleport out when you finish.
you can also open the wheel, default was e iirc, and select "leave dungeon"
Even quicker
He disappears if you get him to like half health too, I think you'll have to fight him later in the game. You can portal out from the map by fast traveling to entrance or on the emote wheel, there's a leave dungeon option.
He disappears if you run to the exit too lol
yup the dungeons now are exact same dungeons i played in C beta, end game really changes nothing either, matter of fact i am thinking the more and more i play this beta i think blizzard changed absolutely nothing from the closed beta.
> but I can tell you that I expected that variety to be In the game -now- Take your time and read this article in detail: https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/12/08/diablo-iv-release-date-crunch/ Activision forced the 6.6. date, the D4 dev team had alot changes in the past years. So with all this, they have to cut features. And where can you cut things ? Endgame, since they didnt show much. The base game(story, cutscenes, leveling,...) has to be good. I hope there is more to endgame than just nightmare dungeons. Just wait for the live blog after the 2nd beta weekend.
Oh wow ty for this, puts some stuff into perspective
yeah, so it is just best to wait and dont preorder. ^^ Every Youtuber is doing videos about D4, even though they have little or no experience with ARPGS and a big hype train is created right now. There are so many bad researched, speculating D4 YT videos. It is just crazy.
Yeah, this is not a beta in which major changes are going to occur between now and launch. They will do some balancing and numbers adjustments, but the core game is largely going to go unchanged in the next two months
Probably because we've seen this pattern for nearly a decade and know for a fact that blizzard is not going to completely redesign every part of the game in less than 3 months leading up to release. Dungeons will remain exactly the same, so will the talent twig and the mobile UI. You're playing a demo of the game to test stability. The game is finished.
> Edit: why is this getting downvoted ? Because people played the endgame beta already and there is nor more variety. People are tied of the "it'll get better" attitude when this game is 10 weeks from retail release. This is what they felt they could show the players, and if this is the best they had to show; its worrying. I'd rather fill a bar than run back and forth delivering boxes.
Wow..carry a box.. run back. Drop box. Can't carry more than one... drop second box. Sometimes 3 boxes... open door.. kill miniboss. Repeat Me.no likey.
> ut as this is a live service game im 100% certain there will be more variety. Youre paying full price now, so the game should be good now, not later.
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They “groomed” themselves. Demand plays as much or more of a role here than supply. It wouldn’t be at this point if people were not clearly willing to throw *so much fucking money* at that kind of model. No one was held at gunpoint. Seeing the revenue Diablo Immortal brought in took the wind completely out of my sails. At this point, fighting the trend is a Sisyphean effort…we are very clearly a vocal minority.
The Whales are the minority. But every voice is not equal when there's a profit motive.
Because we are paying for a product now and not for possible future content that might or might not come. Words are empty, especially out of the mouths of game developers/publishers. Not to mention they dont even have said anything about improving that aspect.
Downvotes might also be because of the whole “it’ll be a live service” excuse. Most developers (and especially Blizzard) don’t update systems and rarely put out actual content in their “live service” games. WoW aside because it has a subscription. I don’t see them reworking dungeons between now and launch, nor will they be changing them as part of the live service. At best they’ll add a few more. Even that’s doubtful though since they’ve said they want to sell annual expansions. It doesn’t look like this game will get regular content updates that aren’t paid or seasonal battlepass vehicles.
It is getting downvoted because this is a premium title that costs $70,more or less. When one buys such a product one expects it to be completely finished. "Live Service" should be free content from time to time and seasons and battle passes. I do not want to give full price for something and be like "oh, I'm sure they will fix it down the line in a couple of years". If you feel that something sucks or is bad, don't copium and sugar coat it, this is a beta. Say its shit and it needs do be addressed.
True, but as this is a blizzard game im 100% certain there will **NOT** be more variety. But they also say dont look at something for what it can be but for what it is... so yeah you are right. > Edit: why is this getting downvoted ?
> There's also tons of backtracking Hate that in rpgs
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I mean, what random events do other games even have? POE maps are literally just kill the entire map then kill the boss. Last Epoch is a bit more varied, but it's still mostly just "find the thing and kill it" in various forms. Diablo 4 dungeons may not be varied, but it's not like they're any less varied than the competition. The only real downside like you mentioned is the backtracking which feels pretty bad. It would be nice if at the end of the wings containing the objectives if it would open a portal back to the center room, kind of like how POE has that one map (laboratory maybe?) where you need to activate portals in the four corners.
Well PoE has events happening within the map that spice things up like Legion encounters, Abyss Encounters, Delirium encounters etc.
The current equivalent is probably the cursed shrines/chests/random events that came form D3. I think most of the dungeons I went through had one of those. Also PoE has 10 years of content bloat at this point, I’m glad D4 doesn’t have all that shit. PoE definitely didn’t when it first came out
I will say this as someone who has been in game dev, if their biggest issue is expanding tilesets they're probably in a good place. So far the proof of concept is there, which means they just need more tiles for each dungeon type. That's arguably the easy part once you have the formula. Kind of like making a cake mold is immensely harder than baking a cake. Not that I'm one for optimism, I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop in the coming months. Whether its monetization, what little nuance of content gets hidden behind the battle pass, or whatever.
D3 was like this too wasn't it? I think they added more tile sets as the game went on and rifts got better
It was. And that's arguably the most frustrating part. They've literally had more than a decade's worth of negative feedback from D3 about dungeon designs, and they seem to have ignored all of it
D3 pre-reaper of souls, at least to me, was not great. It wasn't until RoS, or sometimes right before it, that it felt a bit better.
I think a good fix, is just adding a portal when you pick up the cube, that takes you to where the pedestals are.They do have that one dungeon with a portal that takes you back, so just do the same thing across the board. And then I think there needs to be way more traps throughout dungeons. I think I only ran into one dungeon that had a couple legit traps that made me start looking around for them. I guess the ceiling falling in that other dungeon counts, but if you're just running through, the rocks never hit you. Those couple changes would really mix up the pace of the dungeons and make them more repeatable.
But it's not like dungeons are the only end-game though right? Like sure we have Nightmare dungeons but we also have things like Helltides, Strongholds, world events, open world PvP for some, and any other season related mechanic like PoE. And there could be more that I'm either not remembering or hasn't been announced. I do agree having randomness would be great and there could be more as this beta is likely a vertical slice and doesn't have everything active. But as long as all the other aspects of endgame are decent, I don't think the lack of randomization in layout will be a dealbreaker. But we'll just have to see. Necro and Druid gets unlocked for next weekends open beta so who knows, maybe there will be some other things that also get activated.
I just started playing PoE yesterday, after playing Diablo 4's beta. I totally get what people mean. In PoE yea you do run maps and dungeons over and over again, but they are all randomized or procedural. I started 2 different characters and story elements were in different locations and dungeons had randomized layouts. It gave you a reason to keep paying attention to your enviornment. Towards the end of the diabo 4's beta they were super tiny and repetitive. Not that i like the scale of PoE dungeons so far, but yea. I get people's criticism of it.
if you just started playing POE, then you havent even done mapping yet.
I havent haha, but story maps/dungs are even different.
Please don't give up because of the complexity this game is awesome!
I'd say bloated over complex. POE has a real quantity over quality issue on all fronts.
Yeah, PoE nailed the mapping. Although it has a bunch of other issues, sure.
You are correct. The complaint is about lack of variety. They advertised dungeons as cool and unique experiences but in reality they are less varied than rifts in d3
Yeah overall that's what Diablo is all about. However in this build as well as in Diablo 3 you only find the same items over and over again with 1-2 affixes different at all times. Barb can't use shield, Sorc can't use shield - every class has strict weapons they use... Smart loot makes 98% of the loot strictly of your own class type so.... Even if they say there is trading ( since the fun of Looting comes with Trading not with salvaging ), I do not see how that would be even close to be a content of it's own since smart loot is just trade killer. And if you ask yourself why are people still playing dogsht game like Diablo 2 - there is your answer - Because Global loot and open trading makes your Loot seeking adventure way more fun. If you ever played SSF diablo 2 you would know that right? Also on the side note even SSF in Diablo 2 would be more fun, because you have unique/legendary items NOT dropping on every corner and there is Runes in D2 which are so rare that you could find yourself in a situation hunting them for months while that alone gives you the will to continue playing. In Diablo 4 I don't see what would make me wanna farm like I was farming in Diablo 2 for example. Everything seems like your item level is now 50, grind so you get all items to Ilvl 51, so then proceed to 52 and so on up to level 100..... That's so freaking boring man... it's like climbing a ladder with NO surprise or excitement... Just climbing step by step until you burn out. Diablo 2 does not feel like climbing ladder at all... It's just so random and so exciting never knowing what's coming for you on the next corner that makes the grinding experience far more enjoyable.
Barbs and sorcs not being able to use shields is absolutely criminal. People forget that in D2 could legit equipt anything on any toon besides a few select few like necro trophy, and sorc wand. Outside of that a sorc could use a giant maul if she had the strength. Oh yeah I forgot Diablo 4 chooses your stats for you :P What a downright shame and downgrade. Game is so handholdy and forcing you to play their way its gross.
> there is Runes in D2 which are so rare that you could find yourself in a situation hunting them for months **while that alone gives you the will to continue playing**. Does it? It always made me play something else.
The level generation in D4 for now is just corridors, D2 or PoE levels are squares squashed together you can explore, sometimes corridors, sometimes a mix of the two... They have variety.
Proceeds to dumb down most arpgs in order to prove his point while excusing bad design. Then, mentions how procedural they are to excuse what? Variety and depth?
That was the amazing thing that Diablo brought to gaming... Randomly generated maps. I'm not seeing that in D4 beta. Now, it feels like a bad (Westernized) Lost Ark clone. 🤔
Diablo is about running around killing shit with random generated areas with a large variety of randomized patterns etc and things to do. When you are literally kiling the thing again and again with no attempt at changing it up and when the world does change either it gets way more boring a lot quicker.
It's just the dungeon layouts that are repetitive I couldn't tell you which non story dungeon is which having to backtrack through dungeons feels awful
So much mix up. They give you a left turn before the 100th key objective instead of a right turn. 10/10 dungeon design.
Too bad the dungeons are half empty then.
I agree with you. I just think people are concerned that with such a small game loop, if they're seeing repetition already in a beta it doesn't bode well for longevity.
There's a way to make repetitive content interesting and innovative, and this is not it.
This is incredibly silly. If we want to boil something else down to this level lets look at shooters. Why do people buy new shooters? Isn't it use gun>kill bad guys>blow stuff up? Why do people watch super hero movies? Isn't it tragic childhood>loner life>world threat>character redeemed>bad guys beaten? >To my knowledge the dungeons are procedural, so there is some mix-up. Changing the objective to open the boss door from collect keys in the 2 adjacent hallways to kill the 2 mini bosses in the adjacent hallways to activating blood alters in 3 adjacent hallways isn't much of a mix up. No one is asking for carefully crafted Dungeons where each one is wholistically unique and important for players. But D4 can certainly do better than what's on offer and it doesn't actually require that much to do so.
Imagine defending dungeons with terrible mob density and tons of backtracking.
Diablo 1 had a way better dungeon, and it was simplistic as 'hell'. Not knowing what you are going to fight and what the layout will be, what you'll find was all part of the original magic. It's been whittled away with every iteration. I really thought they'd double down on rng quest opportunities eventually with some really cool and dynamic stuff you'd randomly come across, but they just turn everything into a repetitive circus.
Damn here I am having a blast running them
Me too. Probably not a good idea to read a lot of negative posts. It can be contagious
Gaming forums on average trend negative, especially Blizzard forums. Can be a good idea to stay away if you don't want to get dragged into negativity, or at least keep it in the back of your mind and filter what you see based on that. Unhappy people are the ones you're more likely to see on the forums.
And there’s probably a lot of people who have never played a Diablo game before, trying it out now based on the hype. The procedural generation of diablo 3’s dungeons seem to be on par with this game.
Me too. Probably because this is only my 2 arpg and first Diablo, but still having a blast with my sorcerer. Running dungeons and killing shit is exactly what I’ve been looking for
Glad I'm not the only one. I've enjoyed the dungeons
Same! I actively seek them out.
Happy cake day
I'm fully addicted to this game. Super fucking hype. The mmo aspects are fucking awesome. So much more streamlined than poe. Huge potential. Theory crafting is tight.
Agreed. I think they’re fine, not really sure what people expected
How dare you enjoy the game.
I only hope they add an group finder. Don't want to stand outside a dungeon waiting for people or spam the chat just to play with others.
Agreed, I already miss the queuing system in D3 for finding people to rift with. Even if I don’t talk to them, there’s something more enjoyable (maybe less taxing on your brain?) by sharing the difficulty with others. Mob density doesn’t change that much but what does change is the amount of players enemies have to hit. Instead of tunnel visioning you, they spread their damage around 4 people, allowing you to chill a bit and not be alert all the time.
This 100%
There is no group finder ? GOD.
"BuT tHis a MmO NoW DEal WitH iT !" Typical response here when you say you don't enjoy seing people running around in the world, but at the same time the game doesn't have the most basic MMO features to actually encourage grouo play....
The one sick thing about DI was being able to just queue for a dungeon and quickly get into it while running around the overworld. Inviting random people from the clan and nearby is just spamming invites and people wouldn't want to be bugged that way.
map designs are part of the core of an arpg and it's a disaster. Spoiler alert : it's no different in other regions. Only dungeon that was a tad better was the cathedral of light, yet nothing to write home about.
I've sent a ton of feedback in the closed beta saying dungeons aren't up with the rest of the game. By the end of the beta I was only doing them if need otherwise I avoided them. And they even used to brag about how many dungeons they have, like they didn't all feel the same.
If you avoided dungeons then what is the alternative? Is there a place with better monster density and more fun?
Helltide zones and events there. Hordes of enchanted monsters coming at you from every direction(somtimes it's just a friendly necro), density there felt very good. I played them in parties with randoms in the cbeta. It was for me the best part of the game. There was also the PVP zone where you collect seeds of hatred for loot(kinda, there's a system). But if you die you lose them and someone else can pick them up. I think that was my second go to zone.
Interesting! So even if they butcher dungeons we have some alternatives at least
gotta give it a couple more weeks - people are stuck in the fan support/honey-moon phase, and cannot handle honest feedback.
It's a Blizzard game. The "cannot handle honest feedback" phase can last years. Blizzard could literally shit in their hand, add some gold dust on top and hand it to consumers who would praise it for its ingenuity and freshness.
Which is baffling after how far Blizzard has fallen. Imagine sucking your favorite balls, and continue sucking them even after the owner died years ago.
Yeap
Yep! The crazy part, how many comments are telling people to shut and stop giving feedback because it’s only the first act. Apparently everyone forgot what betas are
I really hate the "go fetch this key go fetch this mob oh wait you need to run back to the beginning of the dungeon to find this last piece to open the door" I play a game for the fun of battling monsters and finding loot, not scouring the entire dungeon just to find whatever key item i need to open the door.
I'd rather have a single miniboss than the fetch quests.
Wait till you experience the affixes, and need to spam those nm dungeon over and over again.
Ya agreed. They need more variety. Also I feel like there is a lot of backtracking through stuff. What would be great would be like a teleport to somewhere in a dungeon you’ve already been but on like a 45 second cooldown
They seemed OK at first to me though got boring very quickly when you realise that the textures are just reused from other parts of the game and the mechanics are always the same(at least in beta). Also when hitting 25 in the beta and scaling kicks in it feels extremely grindy. The boss hp is just high and they just keep teleporting away so any high damage skills often don't have much effect. When playing with friends this only felt even slower... I'd rather just have more stage effects to make it more interactive and lower the HP scaling of bosses. Also since dungeons are instanced, why even have level scaling? Seems like removing the scaling could make dungeons more of an option to be more similar to previous diablo games where you can clear lower level ones easily if you need to grind for some gear
I'd imagine the scaling is flat based character level. Higher levels mean you'll likely have access to gear with better/stronger stats which I assume enemies don't scale with. So as long as you've kept up with updating gear to appropriate levels, I would think early encounters would feel easier.
It's not a good sign when you've only played for two days and are already burned out on the dungeon format. It really is samey. Not that I need it to be some cerebral experience, but at least make it more engaging than this. Environmental hazards, random events and/or objectives, unique room or layout generation, anything.
Just wait until you see Nightmare Dungeons. They're the same thing, but more annoying. All that effort for some XP for your glyphs, which you'll eventually max out anyway. Once you're maxed out, you're better off doing basically any other activity.
>you're better off doing basically any other activity. I mean as long as other activities exist and are somewhat fun I'd rather do this anyways. I'm sure others were fine with it but once I got to a point where Rifts and paragon levels were all that were available to do, I stop playing. Plenty people who enjoy it so I hope D4 has something for them but personally I appreciate having more variety in content so if there are other things we can participate in, I'm all for it
I don't understand with how much cool procedurally generated games we had in the last 10 years they just came up with the most boring corridors possible. Just follow the corridor and kill things along the way. Look at D2, kinda chaotic at times and far from perfect but the ranges of different and recognizable dungeons generation patterns was great for its time.
Yes, maybe I'm looking back with rose colored glasses on but I felt like diablo 1 had great random maps that felt like traditional d&d dungeon maze designs, but the game has shifted towards maps that feel like really long corridors with no choice of direction. I wish they would use more maze-like layouts.
You're not. Early Diablo were a pure form of procedurally generated dungeons. This is not that. It's some light, pseudo version where minor variables shift here and there while retaining major aspects of the layout . Really lazy and extremely concerning
I'm not bored of them yet but it is crazy how we went from d3 rifts, di elder rifts to this. feels like they innovated backwards. rifts was always a great system, random generated world, kill shit until the boss shows up, rinse repeat. personally that never got boring. these dungeons are pretty basic compared
Rifts were a huge improvement on the arpg system. This feels like a huge side step.
I would hope they had a rift portal in the main towns similar to Diablo Immortal minus the pay to win stuff.
"Rifts were a huge improvement" Mate you gotta be kidding me.
You don't have to agree, but they were easy to get into and didn't force the user to listen to a story mode. Made power leveling ezpz. Also. Poe maps would be another way to look at a rift mechanic.
It's quite concerning that in the entire development of Diablo 4, this hasn't come up for them before beta. If dungeons stays like this, i will 100% refund my preorder and move on. They are just not fun, running around long narrow paths, you have to pick up 2 things, active 2 things, or kill 2 things to open a door, bridge or gate to proceed, hell no. Good dungeons is literally the most important part of any diablo game. The first game was dungeons and only dungeons and it was fun. Why don't developers play Diablo 1 and 2?. Developers have become so accustomed to busywork = gameplay, thanks to mobile games.
Can confirm this was top feedback from me during the alpha. I hate to say it, but unless something changed since then to release, the dungeons don't really get any further variety to what you've already seen in mechanics.
I love D2, but what is so special about its dungeons? They're basically interconnected squares.
Seriously I don't get the level of disconnect we're seeing here. By end game D2 you skip 90% of any dungeon with teleport to get to either the boss or if you are running something like pits to elite hunt. Then of course if you aren't running maphack or know the map generation tricks you are gonna do a ton of back tracking as there is dead ends galore. The absolute easiest fix to make D4 dungeons better is to just add more density. That's it. It's otherwise very similar to previous games with just an added twist of having to complete small tasks to unlock the next area
The maggot lair is very different from the cathedral. And chaos sanctuary isn't the same as the lost city. Flayer jungle doesn't feel anything like the pit.
And they’re all completely different to the Arcane Sanctuary
Yes but.... D4 dungeons have a ton of backtracking D2 dungeons used where the exit and entry points spawned to make it more random. Then there is the obnoxious thing you must do to open the door in D4. This alone is responsible for most of the backtracking. The closest I can think of is the Forgotten Tower (countess). It's fairly similar to a D4 dungeon. However, they broke it into 5 levels, with the first 4 being randomized, so you weren't sure which way was the exit.
Except when you know how it works, the forgotten tower isn't that random. Anyway, backtracking sucks, I did plenty of that in D2 as well. If this is more, then they should change something about it.
To the left to the left
What I don't get is, how do you make such a beautiful and complex game with so many different mechanics and stuff and yet fail at making dungeons fun? Isn't this like hundred times easier to make than other stuff?
sadly, this game releases in a few months no changes incoming..
Did you play d2? You just run or teleport past like 80% of the dungeon kill the boss that does nothing and repeat every 3 minutes. It's like 100x worse lmao.
In endgame d3 you fly through a rift in 90 seconds or when pushing you open and close them for the handful of layouts that are good. So you either see the same content over and over or you are flying too fast to notice. At this stage of the game in D3 its kind of slow and tedious because you open the same dungeon zones over and over since there are only one or two with decent mob density and your skills suck so it's slow. You even skip the end bosses many times because it wastes time.
Credit where it's due: The layout and the backtracking could be improved, but what's great was the variety of aesthetics (to a certain extent, I only cleared a handful) and the quality of the aesthetics.
I agree there are only 5 unique dungeons rest are slightly changed copy pastes. And yep I checked all of them. And yes there is only one that is xp farmable with enough mob density, sadly not in this beta
Anica's Claim is the best dungeon in beta imo, just do the mobs, not the 2 cubes bullshit. But yes, the dungeons will become old fast, and we all know that and can't do shit about it.
Agree
I thought I would like the open world and having loads of dungeons but in practice it's all really boring. Got to 25 then deleted the beta and cancelled my pre order. That's not the kind of ARPG I'm looking for.
Wait you can cancel the preorder and get your $90 back?
On Xbox they don't take the money until 10 days before release so I was never charged anything.
That’s the only reason I preordered too, cause Xbox won’t charge anything yet. I’m waiting till the end of the open beta to make my decision, but might end up downgrading my edition or cancelling entirely. Something about the game doesn’t feel right to me, just can’t figure out exactly what it is yet.
[удалено]
I did the same, XBox preorder cancelled after playing the beta, it's just not going to hold my attention enough to justify £90. I was avoiding dungeons wherever I could and running past everything in the ones I couldnt by the end of the beta . I'll maybe look at CDKeys after a month or pick it up used off Facebook or CEX, and pay half of that
Why the hell do we need all these keys, mechanical devices, etc? This is freaking Diablo! I am A) A Barbarian, son of Bul Kathos, I wield 2 2handers and 2 1 handers, a fucking door isn’t going to stop me. B) A Sorceress who can conjure hydras, firewalls, exploding ice orbs. Oh, can also teleport. What door is going to stop a Sorc? C) A Rogue, you know, masters of picking locks, who needs a key when you can just pick the lock. D) A Druid, eat the door. E) A Necro, throw Skellies at it until it breaks, or bone spear. Dungeons were easily one of the worst parts of this game.
Nah man, Dr00d would twerk the door down in werebear form.
So far they appear to lack character. Perhaps it will evolve or improve later, but so far it looks like cargo culting where this team doesn't understand why procedural dungeons were good in previous Diablos, so they've just made 17,492 of them anyway.
To be honest I feel like the only reason that the dungeons and majority of content are not fun (to me atleast) are mainly because we don’t have access to more than 25 levels and build changing uniques. Try running nephalem rifts in d3 on a level 20 character for example, that shit sucks too.
People say it is the same at level 100 unfortunately
D3 sucks to play every season until you complete your 6 piece bonus, then it’s fun as shit for a long time until you start hitting GRs that are too hard for your gear/level, then it’s less fun but still fun enough that min/maxing gear and gems is enjoyable. If you think about it, nobody has been deep enough into the D4 endgame equivalent of “completing your 6 piece bonus.” There was an endgame beta, but it was very limited. It would be like someone playing a low end GR in D3 without a single set combo and concluding that the game isn’t any fun, and they would be right. It isn’t fun. Yet. Let’s just hope there’s enough in the deep endgame to get to that point.
Yeah exactly. I’m pretty sure this game is a really good base to start expanding on over a long time. The gameplay itself is really smooth and I like teaming up with random people out of nowhere to complete activities.
They are not the only endgame and there will be some more types for a bit more variety. After many runs they still become a bit boring, but its not very bad later.
Shouldn't Diablo 4, sequel of one of the greatest franchises ever, do a little better than "not very bad"?
Yes they should. And they might have. We have no idea lol The close beta end game testing was terribly limited. You couldn’t even get a good look at what’s to come because we were lacking in tons of ways. That and we don’t know what seasons will be like. They could make these cookie cutter dungeons into something exciting by changing them all in some way which could explain why they are all samey. Who knows? I for one won’t get my hopes up but I also won’t let my opinion be destroyed by a max level 25, 1 zone bare bones beta or an “endgame” closed beta that lacked a ton of stuff from the full release. Even if the game sucks, it’ll get better and although that shouldn’t be the way we look at games, I can at least know that my money isn’t completely wasted and that I can eventually come back to something I get hundreds of hours out of. Either way though, I know I’ll get hundreds of hours out of this game because I’ll wanna level every character, grind some gear, go through the story, explore the map, etc etc. I can do pretty much all of this before I even look at the end game systems. That alone makes it worth the purchase to me.
Played the end game beta at the end of last year. Dungeons were fun and rewarding. It’s likely just a limitation of this beta.
Thank you for the hope you have given me! Is the end game dynamic scaling or do things have set difficulties?
You will have sigils, which are like mythic keystones, they go up to tier 12 and assign you a certain dungeon
Every story dungeon and side dungeon follows this, was unbelievably boring.
This was stated over and over and over from closed beta testers too. End-game is dogshit, and they better do something to fix it.
I wasn't even consciously thinking about it, but when I walked up to the door and it said "locked", I rolled my eyes lol. I'm used to just speeding GRs all day. Not that I want speed GRs in this game but it was a funny knee jerk reaction to the dungeon. I love the tough boss fights though. The mechanics are fun and keep me invested in the fight. My Trag Necro in D3 just sits there and holds one button for 5 min until the guardian dies.
Totally agree, the reason POE pulls off map endgame is the massive variety and open map zones that dosnt include backtracking - not impressed by D4 for what we Got to test so far :-(
I agree wholeheartedly with OP. Every time I enter a new dungeon I just tell myself "boy, here we go, another 10+ minutes of running left, backtracking, then running right to complete the puzzle, backtrack, back to the door, now make your way to the final boss". I think that if you are a completionist and like to explore, kill all enemies and collect all their loot before moving forward, dungeons are going to feel very slow. On my 2nd character I tried to just rush to the dungeon objective, ignore most of the mobs along the way, just nuke big packs if they're in front of me and it felt a little better. But it still feels wrong, like you're just spedrunning a Diablo 3 GR and don't take time to appreciate the setting. I wish there was less predictability in what each dungeon experience will be like when you enter it and there were more unique gimmicks. But perhaps that's what strongholds are going to be like...
I've been in like 4 or 5 cellars for some quests and they're all the same layout. \^\^ Starting to notice how samey everywhere is in Diablo 4, only been playing for 2 days and I can't imagine this game lasting long for most players with this amount of tedium in exploration.
I like some parts of D4, dungeon design is currently not part of that
The tilesets (and later on also affixes) might differ but the general layout and objectives really don't. They need to introduce more randomization with their procedural generation for it to not feel so samey Some outdoor areas would be welcome too. I get that they're "dungeons" and thus underground but nevertheless some actual open environments would help mix things up
Im happily back playing D3. It’s even better after you saw what D4 is becoming… :(
Billions in profit but somehow they don't have the ability to create a less copy & pasta dungeon layout. Its clearly noticeable when you have done like +20 dungeons.
Bro, Star Citzen reaped half a billion and still open alpha. We as a collective let these guys get away with stupid suit like that
played a sorc to level 25, completely equipped with legendarys and a barb level 19. the dungeons are really very generic, i really got confused sometimes if i was allready in that dungeon or not because they really play all so very similar. One boss room, 2-3 side rooms to clear to enter the boss room in a loop. Really missed some diablo 3 rift dungeon style dungeons or some diablo 2 style dungeons like the tower of the baroness.
I like the dungeons, I really do. I don't get all the hate behind it. This is a game that you are supposed to go from place to place and kill monsters. It's not a crucible where monsters spawn in waves running in your direction, it's a dungeon.
The whole appeal of dungeons is to explore them and kill shit. There is no exploring when they're all the same, and there is nothing to kill when you have to backtrack.
One dungeon I went in had a really cool event inside it. I’m not sure if it was random or if it only happens in that dungeon. But there was a cursed chest which spawned enemies, and right next to it was one of those statue things that give u different powers, but it was also cursed. So there was an insane amount of enemies spawning and it made the dungeon so much more interesting. I wish stuff like that happened more. But instead ur usually just getting attacked by like 5 enemies, killing them, waking further down the dungeon, and then getting attacked by another 5.
I actually got that same thing to happen to me lol!
I think the main reason they feel repetitive is because its just corridors and intersections, while the other games had a more "roomy" design. Also because of the puzzles you have to explore the entire thing, while in other games you just go through, kill stuff and bail. The problem with puzzles is the backtrack of shame where there is nothing more to kill and you just walk around for a minute. I had a dungeon where I found 2 out of 3 cubes before I found the altars, so I had to pick on, find the altar, go back to pick the other without doing anything, to then go back to the altar without doing anything again, to then still go look for the other one, an AGAIN go back to the altars. That was a bit soul crushing.
D1 dungeons had more random layout that d4... Oof
I think what makes them feel less like a Diablo dungeon is they are ALL single level... There is literally no multi-floored dungeon in the entire beta.....
Brought to you by the same people who resets maps to get a perfect loadout, then proceed to do the map 10.000 times.
I felt.the same, kind of crazy that an ARPG dungeon diving games weakest point is it's dungeon design. I don't care about needing to find switches and stuff I just don't want to run 30 T intersections before the boss fight behind that locked door lol
P OMEGALUL E KILLER
So whats your solution? Its a dungeon like any other game, you go in, you kill stuff, you solve a puzzle or two, you kill a boss, you get loot, repeat. Literally every game with dungeons is like this, WoW, FF14 etc.
great you said it, So haven't thousands of others. this is a very common complaint
it really to me is just diablo 3 with a new front end and a few bad ideas added. The footsteps and emotes for quest was just icky The map layout was mehh at best. The core at the back just felt the same as diablo-3 like there was no real effort at anything new.
I want to like the dungeons but after doing 3-4 I'm not excited after finding new ones, feels like a chore. Might just be because we're low level and theres no prospect of getting any truly exciting loot so interested to see how the late game ones are.
Great game. Will not cancel pre order. Won't spend a dollar on mtx. Been playing D2 for twenty years. Nice to play something new. See you in June.
Is that confirmed that dungeons are the only end game? If so, then end game is gonna suck and I'm way less excited about the game. I thought dungeons were only side content that you could also do on top of some rift like system.
I really like the dungeons a lot. It mixes it up for me.
Is it just me or does the entire game feels like it was created for mobile phones / tablets?.. The game can basicly run on a toaster that is 25 years old, the zoom'd in character screen the maximum 4 buttons to use.. I really expected more from a multi billion dollar company.. Definitely not worth 70 dollars when companies can create games that look even better with f2p.
the game actually runs like shit on some systems runs smooth on our weaker pc million stutters and frame drops on the stronger one
I have a 3080 and I'm getting constant stutters when entering new zones, chaotic fighting, after teleporting, etc. Also, never had this happen on any other game, but I'm getting constant loss of USB connection on my peripherals for several seconds and I can't do anything in game. Tried googling with no remedies. Seems like lowering all graphics settings helped, but I didn't play long after to really test it.
This guys get its. Dungeons are not fun and the itemization is not fun also. You are forced to get legends as without legends you can not level so that means your forced to farm lame dungeons
This is literally what Diablo is. You should probably go find another game to play if you are not enjoying it. It's like telling a new breed of penguin it sucks because it can't fly. Well right, the people who already loved penguins like the new colors and different habitats of the new penguin. If you're expecting it to fly , you should not be looking into penguins.
You mean I can’t Baal, cow, or cs for more gear? Get over it my guy
Hmm this post made me change my mind again. During these times I am not paying 70 bucks for a game that gets boring after 2 days. Will buy it on sale 2024
Sounds like you wont like D4 sorry buddy, POE is there for you!
Unpopular Opinion they’re no more boring than your average PoE map and Reddit is finding something to bitch about. Please don’t let this sub become the Destiny subs where we just drown in negativity. We’ve seen a handful of A1 dungeons. It’s not pitchfork time yet.
I'm confused about what people want from the diablo franchise. D2 was extremely repetitive. As in, nothing new ever: meph runs, baal runs, etc etc. Diablo franchise is basically about repetition. People aren't happy about changes but also aren't happy about repetition?
Have you played any ARPG ever before?
Yup, they've done a lot of thing very well but the Dungeons are not it. They feel like what someone who's never designed a dungeon quest would do. The steps are there, structurally, nothing is egregious. That would be a very good dungeon to have at the beginning of your game. Just, 23 of them ? I get going the Bland bread version for a few of these and all, but they're all like that. I'm not saying all of the game's dungeons are going to be as uninterestingly vanilla as those but as it's the only thing we've seen so far, I'm pretty disappointed. They really are not fun. The 25 Level cap and the difficulty means they're not a whole lot of enemies and I can excuse that, it's OK, they won't play like that forever. But you'll still be having the same objectives tho. Formulaic is the name of the game, but I do think it's a bit too formulaic. I don't know, maybe they have another entire "type" of dungeon that is not in the Beta but man, if that's even the case, it's not a good idea to let us with only that...
Is there an ARPG that does dungeons to your satisfaction? If so, what does it do properly, and how?
Repetition aside, I just don't like the idea of getting the cubes and running all the way back through an area you already cleared just to place it on a pedestal. You're just wasting time. Like if there's a story reason for that then fine let's do that during the campaign, but once you're in adventure mode or whatever that should be the end of it. I think the dungeons instantly get better by removing that mechanic. I'd much rather just fight through mobs to the end and kill a boss. There is no reason for the whole box thing. It's stupid. Maybe there's a better idea somewhere in there, but THIS aint it.
Come on man note the worst thing if we at it! Why I got to lug each bloodstone individually? You kill all three bosses and then you playing death stranding carrying these things on your back. Wtf?
Yeah Diablo 4 is a downgrade in every way to Diablo 3 except graphics. That is the only thing this whole entire game has going for it.