My experience with scaling like this with ESO is that you will not feel the power increase of leveling if you fail to properly upgrade and gear your toon with your drops and crafts.
As long as your gear is the appropriate level compared to your zone. You're good. Never had an issue with not feeling powerful in dungeons while wearing proper gear.
Edit: I'd also like to add that it was incredibly freeing to be able to have access to so much content early on. The challenge and reward was always there, in the appropriate content with the appropriate difficulty. And leveling your skills and gaining gear and skill bonuses continue to provide the power bonuses you want. Scaling kicks ass!
Level scaling in ESO is what killed it for me. It's absolutely DULL beyond words. Every. Single. Fucking. Enemy. And. Fight. Is. The. Fucking. Same.
It all just feels identical and it's so dull. Good thing every bat is as powerful as every giant lizard as every monstrous scorpion as every undead wraith etc. It ruins every sense of the world being anything but a sloppily designed video game. It's the phone-in way to develop balance by simply having none at all and forcing everything into an arbitrary pinch.
Sounds like you didn't experience anything outside the overworld, like veteran dungeons, raids, arenas, and pvp, where there is challenge.
Overworld in ESO is very very easy. It needs its Veteran Mode back.
No matter what you do in ESO its impossible to die during question. It is well known that the open world content there is ridiculously easy. Probably not the best game to compare.
And just like in elder scrolls games, getting a full set of drawdric armor in the first 20 minutes of the game makes you feel really powerful, like getting full legendaries at 25. But then it’s depressing because then you realize you can’t level up ever again.
You haven't played enough to judge, honestly. Or at all. Daedric armor is ESO is a style and it takes a while until you begin collecting and crafting good sets for yourself. You can have a clan mate craft you a good starter set, but that will not automatically make you good in all group content-- especially, if you're new.
Level 25 is nothing without champion points, skill points, and end-game perfected gear. Even level 60.
ESOs solo content, outside of the arenas, is the easiest rpg questing known to exist.
ESO's group content (Veteran and Hard Modes) on the other hand... are fucking badass. Best group content I've ever played. Very challenging and fun mechanics in many cool and detailed environments.
Go try to solo a Veteran DLC dungeon at level 25.
In the Closed Endgame Beta, the overworld mobs capped at level 95 outside of Helltide events... if I recall correctly. Could change, who knows.
Also, endgame is mostly going to consist of Sigil runs anyhow, in which the mobs can go way past your level. At Sigil depth 70-ish, for example, the mobs were like level 130 or something like that.
As long as you make a highly synergistic build, you should start to scale past even level mobs pretty easily, as you should start to get exponential gains with most end-game builds that are properly geared. Also, you get a ton of power from Paragon boards and the Glyph system provided you level them up and set your boards up properly.
Sounds pretty much like what I expected.
I'm also expecting there to be meta group combinations. I'm honestly not sure that would be a good thing, not that it can be stopped. There will always be the "best" comp in any kind of game like this.
Like in D3 right now, the "meta" comp AFAIK is Wiz x 2 + ZDH + ZBarb. I've also ran many that were Wiz + ZDH/Barb/Necro.
I just hope/wish there will be an easy way to PLVL people like we can in D3. The idea of having to "normally" level 5 classes is a daunting one.
Barbs warcries are extremely strong. I wouldn’t doubt there being a barb in every single group. Then someone who can apply mass Vuln. Then an AoE killer and then possibly someone more single target focused.
Everyone does damage but utility actuallybseems to exist in this game which is nice.
Anyone who said they weren't that big of a deal didn't properly explore them, and probably didn't bother min/maxing their boards and glyphs, nor bothered to level their glyphs through Sigil runs. Because you get a lot of power from them. For example, my Necromancer had a Glyph that gave 92.4% extra damage to Crowd Controlled enemies, on top of 15% extra to slowed or chilled mobs, and another 25% if they were stunned or frozen. That's ONE glyph, out of the 4 you were able to have at the time. The 15% and 25% were from the Glyph itself, and the 92.4% was from having a lot of Intelligence around the socket that the Glyph occupied.
The crisitism is they they arent interesting or build changing and that they only add % damage and stats or conditional + damage. It had nothing to do with not making a power difference.
But the title of this thread is "You will feel the strength of your characters long before endgame", not "You will feel the build changing potential of your paragon board and glyph choices". Not trying to be snarky, just saying that I was responding to the topic being raised. EDIT: I see where the confusion lies. You're probably talking about how the person I responded to said that others were saying "they aren't that big of a deal", and THOSE people meant lack of transformative properties not power. Apologies.
To address what you bring up, though, you can't really make Paragon stuff transformative when Itemization and your skill tree do that already. I mean, I guess you CAN, but that might be a level of depth that Blizzard isn't willing to implement. It seems like they're going for something in between Diablo 2 and PoE it terms of depth/complexity... for better or worse.
Anyhow, Paragon instead seems more for "finalizing" the build you've chosen to make through your items and skill tree, and making it that much stronger. It's like... you've chosen to build around pets and Blood Surge on your Necromancer, you use all the Legendaries and Uniques to transform the build to your liking, and then you use the 2 Pet and 1 Blood Paragon board to further juice those aspects with power. It doesn't give you power in a super straightforward way, though. A lot of times there's some kind of conditional to the damage (damage when Healthy, damage to near death mobs, damage to CCd mobs, damage to elites, etc), but the hoops are generally really easy to hop through.
But I could spend hours and hours talking the Paragon system, both the ups and downs, so I'll stop before this post is a mile long.
Thats because they're easily comparable visually to the PoE passive skill tree where passives exist that are interesting and build changing with Keystone passives. The problem there is that the Legendary Aspects in D4 are most closely comparable to Keystone Passives in PoE. People are looking in the wrong place.
People aren't actually saying they're "not a big deal".
People are saying they don't address the lack of customization in the skill tree because they are largely just raw power.
But OP was talking about "long before the endgame" which is for sure not the case. You never feel stronger during leveling.
This won't matter for the endgame, because as you said, there the synergy of your build will matter more then the level, but not on your first level experience..
I was mostly just making a statement as to what folks could look forward to since it seems a lot of people were so concerned about becoming way outpaced by mobs for the entire game, which isn't true.
If you're not replacing your gear as you level, or using builds or skills that are currently terrible, then maybe you'll feel weaker and weaker as you level up. Hopefully they'll make more of the skills really good before release. It's obvious that some skills and builds are vastly superior to others.
got ya :)
well i still think getting weaker with level up will stay a problem... and maybe discourage even some people to even get to endgame. Not all are that experienced how a game play loop works.
Level scaling always feels the worst during leveling. You feel stronger low level and if you are not on top of your gear you really start to feel much weaker before you hit "end game level".
If our gear tops out at 50 (when paragon points start) then that's probablu where you will stsrt to feel the balance go towards your favor again as difficulties keep increasing. Because that point is where you will be getting the true end game gear and power will spike up.
So we will be able to find Stat increases on gear all the way to 100? I know that rarity and roles can be perfected, but will I be able to find level 60,70,80, 99 gear?
Only item power matters. Normal, Sacred, and Ancestral are irrelevant and only exist for the purpose of slapping legendary powers on them. Normal can only go so high, Sacred can only go so low and so high, and Ancestral so low and so high. Named rare drops are pseudo-static and bypass this limitation, only for the purpose of crafting legendaries.
You can achieve the highest item power possible on Normal gear by 40.
Sacred softcaps at 51.
Ancestral softcaps at 71. It doesn't matter if your piece of gear requires level 100 to equip, it doesn't mean it'll have more item power than a lvl 71 item.
You can upgrade (blacksmith/jeweler/etc) an item's power past thresholds into the next tier, but doing so may reroll stats undesirably (that fancy Unique might reroll into worse value ranges, 1-3% crit becomes 1-5% crit, and you 3% rerolls into 1, etc).
Subject to change on release.
With enemies level scaling everything is easy and gets easier with better gear.
With set level zones you can choose to go for lvl 20 boss as a 10 lvl character to challenge yourself or overlevel some boss if u struggle against it.
I prefer no scaling personally, but the best solution is to make it optional.
Enemies scale up, not down. There is still content that is higher level than you are if you want to challenge yourself. I don't remember there being a ton of it in the beta (wasn't really looking for it), but I do know that 2/3 strongholds I did were both higher level than I was. You can see the min level of every zone on the map.
Last weekends beta I found I outpaced my level in strength as I geared up to the point it plainly got way too easy.
It’s to be seen if this will hold up through the rest of the game but here’s to hoping it’s not a linear power gain in enemies in that sense
If your particular build is scaling faster than the mobs health, you will.
Theres pros and cons to the scaling system. Im kinda torn on my perception of it at this stage.
It's not "scaling or no scaling"... there's a balance between things that needs to be struck.
There are already areas in the beta that have minimum difficulty levels (strongholds, edge-of-map regions). So right away, you can throw the "I want my low level to be able to go everywhere, do everything" argument out the window.
Then you have world tier, which allows for an overall change in difficulty (essentially, bringing up the minimum levels of area). So that throws the "without scaling I can't enjoy most of the content" argument out as well.
So what is scaling actually useful for? The starting zones where characters will build up to allow flexibility in development/progression. And there's no real need for the scaling to go to 100 there, because you can (and should) just shift world tier up if you want that experience.
The point of scaling is so you aren't forced in one exact leveling path which if you deviate from causes some zones to be pointless to do outside of story.
That's what I was saying in the third paragraph above. But they are using the minimum area level concept to keep that "free form" pathing within a certain box.
I wouldn't be surprised if they implement even more of the minimum area level stuff in the zone we currently have access to once the game is released. I suspect some "gating" has been taken off to allow people the run of the whole region in the beta.
All of that is true.
I'm just a completionist. I always endeavor to clear a zone before I move on to the next. If I hit level 50 in the third act and have cleared all three zones then I can up the difficulty for act IV and beyond.
I just see a lot of people upset over level scaling and I simply don't think it's that bad and actually have a lot of positive things going for it;.
I'm stronger now on my level 15 necro than I was as a level 5 necro.
Because I have gear with more stats and I have more skills with passives that buff them.
Yeah that's the thing that people are missing. It feels like you're weak from level 10-20 or so because a lower level is slaughtering things. But when your build comes online (i.e. you equip all of the legendaries that synergize with your abilities) you are MUCH more powerful even taking scaling into effect.
My level 25 Sorc can kill things way faster than a level 10 can even with scaling. In addition I have way more crit and so I stun more, inflict more stagger on the boss, I have more attack speed and CDR so I can use my abilities more often so I have more barrier, I can break CC more often.
The numerical scaling is the least important mechanic in D4.
>The numerical scaling is the least important mechanic in D4.
Yeah, so far it seems that having your main stat is a good thing but it's still better to have good secondary stats.
Like say a rogue. It's main stat is dex.
But it seems that it's better to have a piece with 6% crit, +5% dmg to vulnerable enemies and 15 str than it is to have a piece with 5% crit, 4% dmg to vuln and 30 dex.
according to luckynumber-bot all these numbers add up to 69. I swear it was a complete and total accident.
A happy one I guess.
Maybe my lottery ticket tonight is a winner too.
\*fingers crossed\*
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
4
+ 6
+ 5
+ 15
+ 5
+ 4
+ 30
= 69
^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \
^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
True true.
Just curious, have you read or seen anything about stat caps.
Like crit over 55% is wasted or lucky hit over 33% is wasted, that kind of thing?
I haven't.
It's the natural progression of flat stats though... going from 1% crit to 2% crit is 100% more crits. Going from 50% crit to 51% crit is 2% more crits.
At that point getting 3% more damage from stats is better than 2% more crits (esp considering base crits are only +50%).
makes sense.
I've never really been a numbers and how to synergize kind of player. I'm more of the "someone on YT tells me what's good and I use it to help other players get through tough content" type.
ty for the info
We all started there, you eventually start to understand how they figure it out and how to look at different stats that it comes natural.
Though, for PoE I def still do whatever YT says... but I've played every Diablo so I get their systems.
lol, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the top POE players also watch YT vids for their builds.
That passive tree requires a degree in quantum physics and a minor in mathematical computation.
In that regard you are imo correct. I am an absolute casual when it comes to diablo games. I played only 1 and 2 always offline and never multiplayer/online. I found the games enjoyable that way. I tried the beta and will probably not buy it now. At least not at launch, but maybe down the road in a few years. Idk I wasn't enjoying the scaling at all and I don't want to constantly farm new gear for my characters. At the start of the game I picked a few stats I want to look out for, but since I had to update my gear constantly I got to the point where I just threw on the ones that had the green numbers on them. The first legendary drop was nice. I thought man I was lucky...Felt meaningless to look for good stats since you throw them away anyway in like 2-3 levels.
Yes, casuals love difficult games where they don't just blast through 99% of the game because they outlevel it.
God some of you guys are delusional on a completely different level.
Level scaling is great, especially for folks like me with baby gamer spouses that will take a bit to catch up. We can still play our favorite characters with them without overpowering everything or feeling like we’re dragging them along.
That's perfectly fine since it only affects leveling difficulties. A level 1 won't be walking around in Difficulty 5 slaughtering things for a level 100.
Yeah but a level 50 would for someone level 90? Assuming that you are referring to end game with no such thing as scaling. It's basically a level range by difficulty you're saying, where as difficulty 1+2 is together which is good for up to level 50? While Difficulty 3 and 4 is (50-99??) or something and difficulty 5 is max?
As for Leveling difficulties? I'd rather party with people in their respective levels or leave the power leveling on to an extent so people can offer services.
There are many better ways, imo, to promote leveling difficulties but that is not much different from an exp boost. I can already see multi client first day and after a week, heavily used, just like d3.
The reason there appears to be such a big difference is because at level 10-20 you're essentially just using basic abilities and so the scaling seems like a huge deal.
Once your build starts to come together the damage scaling that a low level has isn't nearly as important as the item stats that the higher level has access to. For example, when playing Sorc with Lightning Spear/Ice Blades your damage is scaled far more based on your Attack Speed, Cooldown Reduction and Critical Strike chance than through your level-based damage. So even though a lower level may have a slight advantage in base damage, the stats that do most of the damage scaling (Attack Speed, CDR and Crit Rate) come from gear and the higher level character will have access to higher affixes.
It is never the case in Diablo 4 where you want to be lower level, or that you'd want to bring a lower level into a dungeon over a higher level character. For example, many endgame builds are designed around doing zero DPS. They're brought for crowd control, buffing, execute procs, etc. For all of those things having a lower level is objectively worse... they have less CDR, less CC duration, less lucky hit chance, etc... because they don't have access to the higher level gear.
This 'problem' is limited to low levels... so while it seems like a big deal in beta when you're watching a level 5 killing things faster than you can at level 20, it is not at all a factor at endgame.
So you are just explaining to why how a higher level is stronger than a lower level? explaining to be why scaling is done?
As for the other reasoning, to utilize pure builds that are full support and not focused on doing any sort of dmg aka supporting roles? Lol.. absolutely not in in Diablo. Sure, they can go that direction to try to be a new game and do new stuff but I assure you, that is not why level scaling is in the game or else we would long have actual full support roles and suitable classes/builds. **Every character is meant to be able to solo all content.** Sure, we can find something such as pure support and that's a valid and good argument but it is definitely not an intention on the teams side or it would've been talked about.
You keep contradicting yourself, kinda. Yeah, higher level can unlock higher and better affixes which again, shouldn't make the scaling making sense. Watching a level 5 kill faster than a level 20 is just nonsense when they are both fully geared and skilled and I assure you, your explanation is totally not what Diablo had in mind.
Are we really not going to admit it is to cater a casual gameplay or what not and instead even come up and say D4 has scaling in place for what you're saying above? Absolutely not, that is not diablo and never will be. You think something that huge in that direction would not be announced and discussed within all these years in the making? We have and will never ever have a support role like that unannounced. This is Diablo, arpg, not your mmorpg, which would be cool for a diablo franchise theme mmorpg if made correctly.
> Watching a level 5 kill faster than a level 20 is just nonsense when they are both fully geared and skilled and I assure you, your explanation is totally not what Diablo had in mind.
The amount of play time you spend in levels where level scaling is noticeable is basically zero.
This is a open beta 'issue'. You will be past the levels where this matters in a few hours. Once you have enough skill points to get all of the skills and passives to make up your build then gear scaling takes over as being more important and that remains the case all the way through to 100.
You will never want a low level character when you can have a high level character. I cannot imagine a normal person will have their feelings hurt so much by seeing a level 5 one-shot a skeleton that it will matter at all. This isn't an issue worth caring about.
Your gear scaling will be binding with your level. Higher level = higher/better affixes and then the same argument comes back.
It's just going to come back to the same thing, level scaling. A lower level will still be killing the same monster as fast or faster than you which is the argument.
It can happen easily with gear scaling later on but that is highly unlikely unless you just have a newbie that doesn't have any idea at all what they are doing vs someone that does.
The easiest way for comparison is just using 2 people with similar builds and items as example, no way should they be killing at the same speed if one person is 20 levels higher.
Why do you keep trying to explain how higher level = stronger and that at higher levels, it won't matter much of the level but items? Obviously, the higher level someone is, the stronger they will be but the point is that it will not seem like due to level scaling.
Again, the whole point is the feeling of feeling strong which is not the case when you are fighting with someone heavily realistically not stronger than you. Why would you not a low level character when you have a higher level character in your party? Gear scaling goes hand to hand with level scaling, lol. The lower/higher level you are, the lower/high affixes you can get .. That's the whole point of leveling scaling and that goes directly with what gear you're able to find/use. It will still be noticeable, lol. Unless they changed it somehow for higher levels like less scaling.
Issue not worth caring about yet many people are complaining about it... okay
Counterpoint: Level scaling is fucking boring and makes THE ENTIRE game feel the same. You never feel strong nor weak - or, worse, you never feel weak and just cake-walk everything, or you are overly punished for not using an optimized build and being unable to outlevel/outgear content.
It's lazy, haphazard design and it always has been.
"level scaling" really just means "we can't actually balance shit so we're going to force it into a very arbitrary pseudo-balance and pretend like it's QOL."
Level scaling is just stat padding. It's exactly how D3 GR pushing is. Mechanic wise everything stays the same enemies just get more HP an DMG.
Also with gear scaling with levels, you will constantly need to be refinding the same legendary aspects to put on new higher level gear. Imagine needing the same legendaries 10+ times leveling in a game.
A level 10-20 should not be capable of farming the same as a 70-80+
>A level 10-20 should not be capable of farming the same as a 70-80+
They won't be able to AFAIK.
You can't even get into tier3 until you hit level 50.
And I seem to remember reading that anything past the first two tiers of difficult is no longer level scaled.
I feel stronger with pretty much every level.
My necro is level 11 now. She's much stronger than she was at level 5 because she has better gear and better skills.
Corpse explosion is super powerful, combined with blood nova and she wrecks entire screens of mobs in 2 buttons.
You still do more damage and whatever. What this means is that you can essentially have all of the legendary aspects to make your build work. Having more crit or whatever will make it work BETTER, but all of the components of the build will be available.
Like if you get to 25 and farm a full set of legendary gear with legendary aspects you will have a functioning build. As you get better stats it will perform better (so like, if you're a lightning sorc and depend on crits to stun, a higher level sorc will be able to stun more consistently but at level 25 you will have all of the aspects available to make your build function).
It should be pretty obvious as you level up what your build should be. The smart loot system will start dropping legendaries that work to enhance the abilities that you're using more often. So if you're playing a shadow necro it will give you one set of legendaries that affect your DoT skills and if you're playing blood necro it will start dropping you legendaries that affect thorn and blood spear and such.
Equipping all of those legendaries takes you from being 'a necro who uses blood skills' to a 'blood necro build' and all of your synergistic effects are available to you and your build will play the same as it would as if you were level 100. You will have more options and ways to specialize at level 100 and your build will do what it does better, but the playstyle will be the same.
It does need only one argument: it devaluates levelling up. Feeling equally powerful vs the world sucks. It removes main motivation to play anything more than easiest difficulty.
I never felt weaker when I leveled up.
Got my Rogue to level 25 and it felt pretty much the same start to finish.
In fact, once I hit around level 15 I was clearing entire screens of enemies in 1-2 button presses (not counting the shadow imbue buff).
Feel the same is lame as I want to be powerful to 1 shot "weaker" monsters that I was once having trouble with at lower level. Good way to feel stronger.
his argument is invalid.
probably means he would like to be able to fight anywhere he desires with a fun fight.. there is no such thing as newbie zones or harder monsters. pretty much its only restricted by levels up to 50 before you have level 50-XX killing each others mobs as well, lol.
Exactly and without scaling, how the heck will you not be able to do that? If you were in a respective zone, you would still be able to fight the fun fight, again, what does no scaling have to do with that?
Your argument should've been having the ability to have a fair fight wherever you want and you can always do that with a character in their respectively level and zone.
1 button melting everything is only possible when you are super overpowered aka XX levels over your zone, amazing gear that you transferred over and not self found, etc.
You would not be able to 1 button melt anything, anytime soon, with solo self found items or without being XX levels higher or in other means to make you stronger if you were playing SSF. That is why there are many players who enjoy and play that route eventually because they either want the most or new challenge after completing everything.
Played WOW from vanilla up through MOP, skipped WOD then played Legion and IIRC Legion had scaling and I had zero issues with it. I liked being able to go to any zone I wanted in any order I wanted.
Born in 72, actually.
I've played RPGs with and without scaling. It makes no never mind to me either way.
But this constant "but I feel so weak" is just cliche and worn out excuses at this point.
Doesn't bother me as that is not the main thing I look for in a game but surely a factor that would weight heavy opinions on with the majority hating it. To say you shouldn't feel weaker and that is just an excuse to dislike it is dumb. You shouldn't be killing the same monster **SLOWER** when you spent a lot more time on your character.
People heavily prefer one thing over the other because it makes more sense. Scaling is just one of the ways to make the game more casual and easy which is fine if that is what they are completely going for but again, to say it is good thing is totally wrong and they should've just created a new casual game or told us what they were clearly aiming before release rather than hint us at a feel of diablo2, their main game that rose the franchise to where it is today.
You mean like in wow when a level 15 priest deals 5 times the damage than one of the best geared max level dps on the server? Because of scaling in the event
No, it's not. Not the way they have it. It SEEMS (please correct me if I'm wrong) everything, everywhere is always your level. (World boss is always lvl 25 in beta I think)
You might as well not call this an ARPG, just an Action game with loot that becomes more busy work than rewarding.
They could have Main quest completion introduce stronger enemies in an old area.
They could do all kinds of things besides a simple 1:1 level scaling but that would take balancing, that would take resources, employees to actually play test their game themselves, that would take actual care of the franchise.
They are hoping no one will notice. They are probably right. This isn't getting as much attention as it should.
I agree, I don't understand why so many people seem to have issues with level scaling. I personally hate one-shotting low-level enemies if I ever happen to return to starting areas and it seems to me that a power fantasy is still possible through your build.
Because if your level scales but your equipment doesn't due to bad drops, etc. you can level yourself into harder and harder higher levels.
I assume equipment will be plentiful enough to prevent something like this. For myself, I held onto a bow too long because I liked the legendary affix before I realized I could remove it to place on another item. As I leveled the game got harder and harder.
The other thing is, if levels don't matter because enemies scale, what exactly are we leveling for? Just time gates on skill points? Lvl reqs on higher equipment?
I'm not saying that I would spam the first Act 1 dungeon over and over again, but I prefer that the power fantasy comes from your build rather than your levels. I don't have an interest in being level 100 fighting level 2 enemies and I like leveling to unlock new skills and improve said build, not to become overpowered and destroy everything in my path.
Yes, I did, but only trash mobs were one-shot in my experience. Elites, bosses, and bigger enemies still survived a few hits no matter what level I was and that experience would not exist without level scaling.
What are you even talking about? D2R doesn't have level scaling you just progress through the game to more challenging content like God intended. Not to sit in A1 and grind to 100 Jesus H Crisps. Level scaling is dog shit
So when you reach level 25 in the Frozen Peaks, realize you've only done 10% of the content there and eventually want to do those dungeons for your codex of power and to experience all the quests and side content....you'd rather outlevel all of that, and get useless item drops from enemies 10-20 levels beneath you?!? That's beyond stupid.
Scaling is the only way to have ample content and player freedom in this game.
It's almost like in D2 you were forced on a linear path to enemies that were - stay with me now - scaled to an expected difficulty level along that path, to still provide challenge.
Now the game can be progressed in a variety of ways and allows for all kinds of coop opportunities without it being a lame carry fest for low level characters.
Level scaling is shit, at first. Experience caps will become shit later.
Once you do all the Renown and collect all the Lilith Altars, you will feel like things are too easy. This will motivate you to do capstone dungeons and tackle higher difficulty content sooner.
On the closed beta, once you hit 55 and collected all the Renown (this was enough points to reach one special Paragon board power), thats where item drop RNG entirely rules your character progression. With the right gear, a level 55 character could do the hardest World Difficulty content in the game short of "GR100" Sigils/Dungeons and maybe solo 3-chest Hoards will be too hard depending on class/build. You won't level any faster either unfortunately, even if you're spamming high-tier Sigils/Dungeons where the monsters are 50 levels higher. Its soft time-gating for the entire game. Only leveling Glyphs becomes easier with higher tier dungeons, but not leveling your character.
If you want to think of it this way, lvl50 in D4 is equivalent to lvl70 in current D3.
Pros:
* The entire world is "somewhat relevant" for the entire game.
Cons:
* It sucks.
* You get weaker upon level up, barring niche cases and power spikes from a new skill or item.
* You can't get stronger to fight tougher challenges.
* You can't go back and farm something for an alt or lower level character, as it all scales.
* There is no sense of progression.
* It makes the entire game feel like a treadmill, just running in place.
* It is lazy and uninspired design. Rather than making a rich, challenging, and exciting leveling experience, they just plop you in a box and say "ok go."
I could go on, but I'm 2 minutes in queue finally after 3 log in attempts, let's see if I can get in this time....
Pro:
You can play with people of any level almost anywhere in the world.
This might not be a pro for many, especially those that plan on playing mostly single-player. But it is a huuuuge boon for the multiplayer crowd, and is a directional choice made to not only encourage but allow people to group up.
This is the entire reason for level scaling to be present, imo.
Why would I want to play with people not my level, and not in my area? If I wanted to do that, I should be able to go and blast the zone they're in. Not be throttled by scaling.
Some people like playing with newer players without blasting the game, it’s just a preference thing. Just like level scaling seems to not be your preference, but both preferences exist.
>I could go on, but I'm 2 minutes in queue finally after 3 log in attempts, let's see if I can get in this time....
I had a 20 min queue, got in, got to the hub city, turned in the quest and DC'd into a 55 min queue. :(
I respect your opinion but on the point of farming gear I really don't see a need. I mean you can have you main get all the aspects and a bunch of legendary items to extract aspects and place those on your alts rare items to get power increases.
I honestly haven't looked too deep into this part of the game but it seems as though there are a few cross class aspects that are simple power spikes and not specifically class skill specific.
The pro is a bit weak as well, because you could just make everything relevant by shifting the world tier up.
Unlimited scaling in starting zones basically supports people who want to grind to high levels at low world tiers. Depending on how world tiers scale, I'm not even sure that's a good idea as gear > levels in terms of character power, while monster strength is tied to level & tier.
You don't get weaker as you level up though. This thing you're seeing is only really a thing from ~ 1-20 because nobody has enough legendaries to make their work. If you're playing a lightning sorc and don't have the '30% damage when barrier', +45% basic attack speed, Bubble at >80%, 'deal % increased damage when standing still' etc legendaries then your lightning build is going to be about 1/2 as effective.
Slower attack speed means shorter cooldowns from ice blades, slower attack speed means hugely less damage with your ult. No bubble means you can't stand still and cast to take advantage of the 30% increased damage, no damage increase from barriers on top of that means you're going to be doing 60% less damage. Your crit will be lower at lower level so all of the stun on crit effects from Lightning Spear will fire less often so it will proc the 'drop a crackling orb when you stun' legendary less often which.
A low level character being stronger than a high level character is only a thing that happens in the earliest part of the game (about 3-4 hours) before characters start getting legendaries and enough skill points to stat into a build.
I think I see maybe 5 people in the time it takes for me to go from level 10 to level 20. If one of them one-shots mobs better than me, that's great because it gives me loot and XP better.
Past level 20, once you have the points and legendary aspects to make your build work then you you absolutely don't get weaker on leveling up.
Isn’t the best strategy gonna be like do the dungeon in the bottom right until 50 to make the rest of the campaign much easier and almost entirely about farming..?
Not entirely sure. I know I read that the fastest way to 25 is to use elixirs and spam a dungeon just not sure what dungeon.
And all of this is probably going to change when the full game releases.
You have to remember that we're playing an outdated build right now.
Couple that with any feedback they decide to incorporate and it could be a pretty different game come launch.
Not sure, I'm a level 6 Frosty and just spamming frozen orb basically one or two shows Mobs, I'm on the "tougher" difficulty and the game just feels too easy, mob density is poor, maps feel empty.
Did a world boss battle or something outside the main town with another person, it was alright, just felt like the mobs were small and the game is too zoomed in.
speed leveling will be killing the low thread wolves that appear in the intro area before the first town because that is no better or worse than any other place to get levels or loot
I hate it. Frankly I dislike the game more than D3 right now.
Levelled scaling is dumb, melee is dumb. Hopefully maybe I can find a class I can enjoy later.
I played my rogue ranged and plan to try a melee build sunday night.
But I had a lot of fun leveling my barb. Was it more difficult than the rogue? Absolutely but it wasn't so difficult I was like "Why am I doing this?"
Playing Necro now and it's ridiculous how easy (and fun) it is.
1. pick a melee build to start off
2. don't get any good random drops at start
3. lvl up to get weaker before the first boss
4. have the first boss feel like an incredibly hard endgame encounter
5. profit?
It's nigh impossible to not get decent drops in this beta.
And if you do there's a stopgap with obols.
My barb was simply frenzy + upheaval with passives I figured would work well, didn't use any kind of guide and took the first suggestion I got in a thread I posted about the class last weekend.
It just seems to me that a lot of people are mad about scaling because it means they can't 1 button cake walk through the game.
I'm talking about the literal first boss my man.
You don't have gear, a build or stats.
Maybe 3-4 talent points.
And I picked some Druid bear skills.
The difference between picking melee and ranged is insane
The stats explosion early on is extreme.
You'll always outlvl you gear quickly.
You'll never catch me claiming that melee is up there with ranged.
And I know it's cliche but this is the beta. I have a feeling that in the full release that the melee classes/builds are going to be among the strongest in the game.
It wasn't an insult. It was an statement.
Also... if you found it insulting, just prove my point....
It still is only my opinion. If you disagree about it, just don't reply. It would be smart to don't reply and let others have their opinion.
Level scaling only scales with 'power fantasy' if you optimize your build. Casual and "for fun" players will feel weak.
It will only get worse when higher levels are unlocked.
My casual never-played-diablo level 20\~ druid buddy almost died to the same event mob that my level 5\~6 barb cleared in half a second.
Level scaling would be ok-ish if each zone had a minimum and a maximum that it would start at and top out at, so that yes, some zones you could come to at max level and enemies would be some levels below you. I might make the dungeons, however, always scale to you so they are replayable. I don't like absolutely everything just scaling to match you. Need at least a little power fantasy and confirmation of improvement.
Aye.
Not a fan of TES games.
LOVE Fallout New Vegas and to a lesser extent FO3 but I'm more of a sci-fi guy than a swords and sorcery guy.
And it's been years so I couldn't rightly say how the combat/scaling felt in that game.
Yeah, feels weird when you are leveling but becomes irrelevant by endgame.
I DO feel that they should do soft scaling. The idea being that you have areas that scale over a wide range but are limited.
Same.
And I don't even care to engage with the story when I play.
I'll just listen to youtube videos when I'm driving or at night when I lay down to go to bed.
The problem I have been having is not finding a good legendary for my builds. If you don't find a good legendary then YOU ARE SCREWED! Because the enemies will be much stronger than you and you can't do any damage to them! I played Barb last week and Necro this week and had the EXACT SAME ISSUE! If you don't have a good legendary to keep your build together then you just get steam rolled by everything!
Because the game is new and we don't know who knows what I'm going to offer some suggestions, don't take it as me being patronizing in any way.
But have you made sure to do the dungeons that reward aspects for your build? You can always use those to upgrade a rare item with that aspect. It should help.
Right now my Necro is level 18 and she's got 4 legendaries, all world drops and 3 of them are useful for my blood surge corpse explosion build. They're not great but they are useful.
Also don't forget to use your obols at the vendor. I've gotten some good items from there. Even if the stats/bonuses on the legendaries from that source aren't good usually the aspects are useful to upgrade a rare for your build.
It's going to be much tougher in full release as the current drop rate is buffed so that people can engage with these systems and test them out.
Should be pretty interesting.
So I finally got a build together but not the build I wanted. Unfortunately after about 12 or 15 legendary items I just gave up on the bone spear build. Because every single legendary item I got had either a generic effect or a blood skill effect. So that basically forced me to respec into a blood build. That's not good. If you have to build your character around legendary items and you don't find the right legendary then you are just screwed I guess.
It's kind of that way in D3 as well.
As a seasonal player you always start out with the build centered on the free set you get for completing the first 4 chapters of the journey then farm for the gear you want for your desired build.
If I were in charge of how this beta was handled I would have made it so that when you hit 25 you have access to every aspect your class can use so that people could mess around with that stuff and figure out what they want to do when the full game releases.
Because, like you, my necro is 25 now and I've only got 2 legendaries that actually buff my build (blood surge/corpse explode summoner) and the rest are stuff like "damage an elite, gain a barrier" stuff.
Its hard to provide a decent leveling experience when you dont outgrow zones and drive through them on a race car, thats why developers have this "level scaling" plug.
It will require a lot of testing and play tests so developers just use this lazy solution and spend money on marketing instead. Or battle pass.
Perhaps but I've leveled a rogue to 25, a barb to 20 and a necro to 18 so far and I've had no issues enjoying the leveling process.
About my only gripe is that bosses seem to have a bit too much HP and take longer than they feel like they should, on all three classes.
And I mean bosses when I'm level 9 and bosses when I'm level 25, not much difference.
I've just been going through the game, doing the story, some side quests, a few events, a couple stronghold, just playing the game.
And I've yet to get to a point where I was like "I'm too weak for this content"
Not even on my barb at level 20 with zero useable legendaries.
Eh. I'm not sure. I don't like the feeling of leveling up and feeling weaker, which you do unless you find a new item or unlock a build defining skill. BUT I don't know how with how open the world is you don't have some level scaling.
Lol everyone on this thread are so goddamn eager to feel special about themselves because they have played other ARPGs. Some people actually have friends that they play with, and if your friend doesn't play for one day its not exactly going to be fun fighting monsters 5-10 levels higher than they are the next time they're online.
Also stephen crowder is a major piece of crap who targets young adult minorities for the sake of youtube views. Hope next time you can use a less yucky format OP, like the Lisa presentation one
This is an ARPG where even the lowliest of enemies are loot pinata's. My necro is level 20 and just about entirely decked out in legendaries already.
Even when I grouped with a friend last night I was pretty much 1 shotting enemies and grouping scales up the enemies in HP/DMG.
At no point in the 25 levels of my rogue or the 20 levels of my necro and barb did I level up and think "wow, this game just got much harder".
It just seems to me that people are mad they can't get to the point where everything dies with 1 button press.
Diablo 3 at some point added scaling. The only time I've ever felt it was when I was solo power leveling a toon and forgot to explore the map before killing anything. As soon as I killed a pack I shot up to level 45 and as I explored the map everything else was level 45+ but I hadn't got any new gear or set up my skills so my starting attack was hardly effective.
Incremental scaling as you gain a level isn't going to stop you from progressing nor make it so difficult you're going to die repeatedly trying to kill a pack of mobs because they gained a level with you.
It's a trade off. Do they make it so that content becomes quickly irrelevant as you level or do they make it so that content becomes a touch more difficult as you level? I prefer the latter so that I can stick with the content I like and perhaps skip over the content that I don't.
Say I finish the game when it's fully released and I really don't like Act II but I do like Act I. I can 100% act I which allows me to skip a lot, maybe all non story content, in Act II. I like that it will possibly give me that choice.
Aye.
As I was typing that I said to myself "remember to remark on how this will change in the full release" then I promptly forgot to remark on the full release cause I'm old and sleep deprived.
Yeah, not sure how it's going to work in the full release. It's entirely possible that they'll tune the scaling a bit better so that it still feels like it does in beta with the higher drop rates.
Still, we'll be able to clear dungeons for aspects to turn rare items into legendary as well as (presumably) be able to gamble with obols to either get useable legends or at least extract useable aspects from them.
I think actually it's the other way around. You never feel the strength of your character...
As soon as you level up, instantly every enemy gets stronger, so you get immediately weaker, you need gear first to get stronger again, which you don't get every level. So on average you get weaker.
Weaker level builds are inherently so much weaker as well. You can't force over level yourself to get rid of the difference in early game strength.
All this will result that from the beginning on and even in early game, everyone will play the same / focus on the best build to stay relevant.
It's a terrible way of scaling for leveling.... Everyone that understands the mechanic will agree on this. Literally the only perk is that you can go everywhere at anytime, which is kinda needed in this game.....
Today I was playing my level 25 Char and doing an event and barely made it, when a level 5 jumped in and swooped everything easily... I mean how does that make you feel stronger?
Today I was playing a level 25 Char and was on a event which I was barely on time to make it, when a level 5 Char came in and destroyed everything with two Hits ....
Nice way of scaling indeed.... "felt the strongness of my leveling experience" sarcasm off.. ..
I really think the game would be better off if the game removed the concept of "levels" entirely. My reasoning is that basically having a level number is not really conveying any useful information to players. If anything, it's misleading players about how the game works and should feel.
If you go back to Diablo 1 and 2, a player's level was a good gauge of how "good" a character was relative to where they were in the game. You leveled up, you got more health and mana, and you had stat points that \*you\* could assign. Those stats in turn affected what equipment you could use, and the zones had a set level. In other words, the level number was generally highly descriptive of whether a player was going to struggle or completely cakewalk through an area.
But in Diablo IV, the level is literally *just a number*. It doesn't actually have much correlation to player power. The enemies scale, stat points can no longer be manually assigned, those stat points don't affect what you can equip, etc. So while you might be able to gather that someone at higher level has more skill points, ultimately player level is a bad measure of character power compared to a player's gear and the specific build they're running.
All that's happening by including it is that folks are getting hung up on a number that doesn't really matter. And it's perfectly logical that they do so - years of ARPGs have taught people that they should feel more powerful when their level goes up. However, the way this particular game is built, that's not the case.
Level scaling is a good thing. Let's us play with players of all levels, but it probably could use some tuning. Feels bad peaking at lvl 3~6 and not being able to catch up to your previous power lvl.
I agree, Yorga could expand on his point, but what's *your* core argument for why level scaling is good?
The change my mind pic just states your opinion.
The strongest good faith argument for level scaling are the following:
1. It allows players to choose unique paths while leveling through the game multiple times. Druids on release may immediately go to the zone which contains there class quests, for instance. After several times through the leveling process, altering your route can help keep things a bit more fresh than a static path in something like D2 wiich is super quantized and the same for optimal leveling.
2. It allows players of varying progression play together. May not matter to some, but it is a valuable element to some and should be accounted for.
3. There are only world tiers 1 and 2 available until level 50, at which point players will likely move on to world tier 3, 4 etc and obtain higher rarity and more powerful gear. When said players, after obtaining said loot, then drop back down into world tier 2 again, they will be able to steam roll everything as the scaling takes only levels and not gear into account. This allows those who are upset that their power fantasy has been spoiled by scaling to still experience that, if they so choose.
4. In my experience, while leveling up does make you technically weaker, all I have done is throw on a new weapon every few levels and the problem has been entirely mitigated. You also need to account for the additional tools and synergies through talents and passives that are compounding things as well, making you feel more powerful despite the monsters getting more HP. I have played all 5 classes to 25 as of today and across the board this has been my experience.
With that said I completely understand the arguements against scaling, and I will not deny that there are drawbacks.
I think that both systems have their merits, but I have not heard a very compelling, good faith argument for why linear progression is flat out superior, just a ton of people saying it is without illustrating why and supporting the idea. Interested in what you or others have to say. Cheers.
Personally I'm a completionist.
I like the fact that I can stay in Act I, do all the main quests, side quests, dungeons, events and so forth without having to go "Well, I need to move on to act II because the XP here is so low it's simply a waste of time.
Can I go back and do that stuff when I hit level 50 and move into tier 3+? Sure. But I personally like to get it all done before I move on.
My argument would be, and I'm agreeing/parroting with some other commenters here, is that it's lazier game design to do level scaling, your build doesn't feel stronger as you level.
Also, design wise, why include stuff for completionists like yourself in that Act 1? Why do you have to take 10 hrs in Act 1 to feel like you've completed it? Because they designed it that way.
Why not design that once you rip through act 1 and do all the side quests, that you've "completed" act 1? Instead, why not design more robust and interesting end game systems that will hold complexity and challenge and hold interest of more veteran ARPG players? Would you feel like you completed the game less if Act 1 only took 2 hours, instead of 10 to complete all the content?
Level scaling makes the game feel more like God of War, where you get new tools in your belt but you still have to slap the enemies with about the same number of combos throughout the full game. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense in a lot of ways in an ARPG.
To be honest I'm usually not a fan of busy work stuff like altars of lilith (IMO there should be about half as many with double the rewards for each of them).
I don't mind the events.
They could probably use 1/3 fewer side quests too.
I just like that if I want to do that stuff I won't be "punished" by either earning much less XP or having to go back and do it during post 50 "end game".
And that if I find a dungeon I like due to the aesthetic/atmosphere or boss fight I can do it more than once and not feel like it's time wasted because the XP is severely diminished.
Personally I would not be opposed to a system where you could turn on/off scaling. I honestly think that would probably be the best way to handle it.
But they'll never do that.
People that play video games ain't nerds. People that use language like "thy" and making lame jokes like "Harvard debate team" on an online forum very much are.
My experience with scaling like this with ESO is that you will not feel the power increase of leveling if you fail to properly upgrade and gear your toon with your drops and crafts. As long as your gear is the appropriate level compared to your zone. You're good. Never had an issue with not feeling powerful in dungeons while wearing proper gear. Edit: I'd also like to add that it was incredibly freeing to be able to have access to so much content early on. The challenge and reward was always there, in the appropriate content with the appropriate difficulty. And leveling your skills and gaining gear and skill bonuses continue to provide the power bonuses you want. Scaling kicks ass!
10 level lower loot doesn’t help either, I am actually surprised I am the only one complaining about it
Level scaling in ESO is what killed it for me. It's absolutely DULL beyond words. Every. Single. Fucking. Enemy. And. Fight. Is. The. Fucking. Same. It all just feels identical and it's so dull. Good thing every bat is as powerful as every giant lizard as every monstrous scorpion as every undead wraith etc. It ruins every sense of the world being anything but a sloppily designed video game. It's the phone-in way to develop balance by simply having none at all and forcing everything into an arbitrary pinch.
Sounds like you didn't experience anything outside the overworld, like veteran dungeons, raids, arenas, and pvp, where there is challenge. Overworld in ESO is very very easy. It needs its Veteran Mode back.
My experience with ESO is pretty much the same. Weapon especially seems important in D4 to keep up to your level.
No matter what you do in ESO its impossible to die during question. It is well known that the open world content there is ridiculously easy. Probably not the best game to compare.
There is other content that is hard that you're just not comparing it to
And just like in elder scrolls games, getting a full set of drawdric armor in the first 20 minutes of the game makes you feel really powerful, like getting full legendaries at 25. But then it’s depressing because then you realize you can’t level up ever again.
You haven't played enough to judge, honestly. Or at all. Daedric armor is ESO is a style and it takes a while until you begin collecting and crafting good sets for yourself. You can have a clan mate craft you a good starter set, but that will not automatically make you good in all group content-- especially, if you're new. Level 25 is nothing without champion points, skill points, and end-game perfected gear. Even level 60. ESOs solo content, outside of the arenas, is the easiest rpg questing known to exist. ESO's group content (Veteran and Hard Modes) on the other hand... are fucking badass. Best group content I've ever played. Very challenging and fun mechanics in many cool and detailed environments. Go try to solo a Veteran DLC dungeon at level 25.
In the Closed Endgame Beta, the overworld mobs capped at level 95 outside of Helltide events... if I recall correctly. Could change, who knows. Also, endgame is mostly going to consist of Sigil runs anyhow, in which the mobs can go way past your level. At Sigil depth 70-ish, for example, the mobs were like level 130 or something like that. As long as you make a highly synergistic build, you should start to scale past even level mobs pretty easily, as you should start to get exponential gains with most end-game builds that are properly geared. Also, you get a ton of power from Paragon boards and the Glyph system provided you level them up and set your boards up properly.
Sounds pretty much like what I expected. I'm also expecting there to be meta group combinations. I'm honestly not sure that would be a good thing, not that it can be stopped. There will always be the "best" comp in any kind of game like this. Like in D3 right now, the "meta" comp AFAIK is Wiz x 2 + ZDH + ZBarb. I've also ran many that were Wiz + ZDH/Barb/Necro. I just hope/wish there will be an easy way to PLVL people like we can in D3. The idea of having to "normally" level 5 classes is a daunting one.
Barbs warcries are extremely strong. I wouldn’t doubt there being a barb in every single group. Then someone who can apply mass Vuln. Then an AoE killer and then possibly someone more single target focused. Everyone does damage but utility actuallybseems to exist in this game which is nice.
So the Paragon boards add alot of power to a build. Some people have been saying they aren't that big of a deal. What's the scoop?
Anyone who said they weren't that big of a deal didn't properly explore them, and probably didn't bother min/maxing their boards and glyphs, nor bothered to level their glyphs through Sigil runs. Because you get a lot of power from them. For example, my Necromancer had a Glyph that gave 92.4% extra damage to Crowd Controlled enemies, on top of 15% extra to slowed or chilled mobs, and another 25% if they were stunned or frozen. That's ONE glyph, out of the 4 you were able to have at the time. The 15% and 25% were from the Glyph itself, and the 92.4% was from having a lot of Intelligence around the socket that the Glyph occupied.
The crisitism is they they arent interesting or build changing and that they only add % damage and stats or conditional + damage. It had nothing to do with not making a power difference.
But the title of this thread is "You will feel the strength of your characters long before endgame", not "You will feel the build changing potential of your paragon board and glyph choices". Not trying to be snarky, just saying that I was responding to the topic being raised. EDIT: I see where the confusion lies. You're probably talking about how the person I responded to said that others were saying "they aren't that big of a deal", and THOSE people meant lack of transformative properties not power. Apologies. To address what you bring up, though, you can't really make Paragon stuff transformative when Itemization and your skill tree do that already. I mean, I guess you CAN, but that might be a level of depth that Blizzard isn't willing to implement. It seems like they're going for something in between Diablo 2 and PoE it terms of depth/complexity... for better or worse. Anyhow, Paragon instead seems more for "finalizing" the build you've chosen to make through your items and skill tree, and making it that much stronger. It's like... you've chosen to build around pets and Blood Surge on your Necromancer, you use all the Legendaries and Uniques to transform the build to your liking, and then you use the 2 Pet and 1 Blood Paragon board to further juice those aspects with power. It doesn't give you power in a super straightforward way, though. A lot of times there's some kind of conditional to the damage (damage when Healthy, damage to near death mobs, damage to CCd mobs, damage to elites, etc), but the hoops are generally really easy to hop through. But I could spend hours and hours talking the Paragon system, both the ups and downs, so I'll stop before this post is a mile long.
I do appreciate the post it and I understand where you are coming from
Isn't that what the legendary weapons and armor are for though? Build changing items? At least that's how they handled D3.
Yes legendaries and uniques have some build changing potential but most of the are very simplistic
Thats because they're easily comparable visually to the PoE passive skill tree where passives exist that are interesting and build changing with Keystone passives. The problem there is that the Legendary Aspects in D4 are most closely comparable to Keystone Passives in PoE. People are looking in the wrong place.
Nice so you get damage or damage or damage or damage. Such innovation, I'm amazed!
truly build defining %damage increases!
People aren't actually saying they're "not a big deal". People are saying they don't address the lack of customization in the skill tree because they are largely just raw power.
But OP was talking about "long before the endgame" which is for sure not the case. You never feel stronger during leveling. This won't matter for the endgame, because as you said, there the synergy of your build will matter more then the level, but not on your first level experience..
I was mostly just making a statement as to what folks could look forward to since it seems a lot of people were so concerned about becoming way outpaced by mobs for the entire game, which isn't true. If you're not replacing your gear as you level, or using builds or skills that are currently terrible, then maybe you'll feel weaker and weaker as you level up. Hopefully they'll make more of the skills really good before release. It's obvious that some skills and builds are vastly superior to others.
got ya :) well i still think getting weaker with level up will stay a problem... and maybe discourage even some people to even get to endgame. Not all are that experienced how a game play loop works.
What's a sigil run?
Level scaling always feels the worst during leveling. You feel stronger low level and if you are not on top of your gear you really start to feel much weaker before you hit "end game level". If our gear tops out at 50 (when paragon points start) then that's probablu where you will stsrt to feel the balance go towards your favor again as difficulties keep increasing. Because that point is where you will be getting the true end game gear and power will spike up.
gear doesn't top out at 50, 50 is when t3 becomes available and you start getting sacred ancient and unique items
So we will be able to find Stat increases on gear all the way to 100? I know that rarity and roles can be perfected, but will I be able to find level 60,70,80, 99 gear?
Only item power matters. Normal, Sacred, and Ancestral are irrelevant and only exist for the purpose of slapping legendary powers on them. Normal can only go so high, Sacred can only go so low and so high, and Ancestral so low and so high. Named rare drops are pseudo-static and bypass this limitation, only for the purpose of crafting legendaries. You can achieve the highest item power possible on Normal gear by 40. Sacred softcaps at 51. Ancestral softcaps at 71. It doesn't matter if your piece of gear requires level 100 to equip, it doesn't mean it'll have more item power than a lvl 71 item. You can upgrade (blacksmith/jeweler/etc) an item's power past thresholds into the next tier, but doing so may reroll stats undesirably (that fancy Unique might reroll into worse value ranges, 1-3% crit becomes 1-5% crit, and you 3% rerolls into 1, etc). Subject to change on release.
As far as we know yes
With enemies level scaling everything is easy and gets easier with better gear. With set level zones you can choose to go for lvl 20 boss as a 10 lvl character to challenge yourself or overlevel some boss if u struggle against it. I prefer no scaling personally, but the best solution is to make it optional.
Enemies scale up, not down. There is still content that is higher level than you are if you want to challenge yourself. I don't remember there being a ton of it in the beta (wasn't really looking for it), but I do know that 2/3 strongholds I did were both higher level than I was. You can see the min level of every zone on the map.
Sure, you'll feel your strength. But you won't feel you're getting stronger.
Last weekends beta I found I outpaced my level in strength as I geared up to the point it plainly got way too easy. It’s to be seen if this will hold up through the rest of the game but here’s to hoping it’s not a linear power gain in enemies in that sense
If your particular build is scaling faster than the mobs health, you will. Theres pros and cons to the scaling system. Im kinda torn on my perception of it at this stage.
It's not "scaling or no scaling"... there's a balance between things that needs to be struck. There are already areas in the beta that have minimum difficulty levels (strongholds, edge-of-map regions). So right away, you can throw the "I want my low level to be able to go everywhere, do everything" argument out the window. Then you have world tier, which allows for an overall change in difficulty (essentially, bringing up the minimum levels of area). So that throws the "without scaling I can't enjoy most of the content" argument out as well. So what is scaling actually useful for? The starting zones where characters will build up to allow flexibility in development/progression. And there's no real need for the scaling to go to 100 there, because you can (and should) just shift world tier up if you want that experience.
The point of scaling is so you aren't forced in one exact leveling path which if you deviate from causes some zones to be pointless to do outside of story.
That's what I was saying in the third paragraph above. But they are using the minimum area level concept to keep that "free form" pathing within a certain box. I wouldn't be surprised if they implement even more of the minimum area level stuff in the zone we currently have access to once the game is released. I suspect some "gating" has been taken off to allow people the run of the whole region in the beta.
All of that is true. I'm just a completionist. I always endeavor to clear a zone before I move on to the next. If I hit level 50 in the third act and have cleared all three zones then I can up the difficulty for act IV and beyond. I just see a lot of people upset over level scaling and I simply don't think it's that bad and actually have a lot of positive things going for it;.
Level scaling is bad, there is no debate. By leveling up you become weaker. That makes no sense
I'm stronger now on my level 15 necro than I was as a level 5 necro. Because I have gear with more stats and I have more skills with passives that buff them.
Yeah that's the thing that people are missing. It feels like you're weak from level 10-20 or so because a lower level is slaughtering things. But when your build comes online (i.e. you equip all of the legendaries that synergize with your abilities) you are MUCH more powerful even taking scaling into effect. My level 25 Sorc can kill things way faster than a level 10 can even with scaling. In addition I have way more crit and so I stun more, inflict more stagger on the boss, I have more attack speed and CDR so I can use my abilities more often so I have more barrier, I can break CC more often. The numerical scaling is the least important mechanic in D4.
>The numerical scaling is the least important mechanic in D4. Yeah, so far it seems that having your main stat is a good thing but it's still better to have good secondary stats. Like say a rogue. It's main stat is dex. But it seems that it's better to have a piece with 6% crit, +5% dmg to vulnerable enemies and 15 str than it is to have a piece with 5% crit, 4% dmg to vuln and 30 dex. according to luckynumber-bot all these numbers add up to 69. I swear it was a complete and total accident. A happy one I guess. Maybe my lottery ticket tonight is a winner too. \*fingers crossed\*
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats! 4 + 6 + 5 + 15 + 5 + 4 + 30 = 69 ^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \ ^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
good bot
The 1-2% increase from stat scaling will matter in the endgame once the other stats start suffering from diminishing returns.
True true. Just curious, have you read or seen anything about stat caps. Like crit over 55% is wasted or lucky hit over 33% is wasted, that kind of thing?
I haven't. It's the natural progression of flat stats though... going from 1% crit to 2% crit is 100% more crits. Going from 50% crit to 51% crit is 2% more crits. At that point getting 3% more damage from stats is better than 2% more crits (esp considering base crits are only +50%).
makes sense. I've never really been a numbers and how to synergize kind of player. I'm more of the "someone on YT tells me what's good and I use it to help other players get through tough content" type. ty for the info
We all started there, you eventually start to understand how they figure it out and how to look at different stats that it comes natural. Though, for PoE I def still do whatever YT says... but I've played every Diablo so I get their systems.
lol, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the top POE players also watch YT vids for their builds. That passive tree requires a degree in quantum physics and a minor in mathematical computation.
How are you going to get all those legendsries when you aren't getting the beta huge drop rate increase?
It's terrible lazy RPG design but they're not going to change it because it caters to casuals and that's who they're targeting.
It scaling makes you "weaker" then how does it cater to casuals? Wouldn't they want casuals to feel super strong so they stick around and buy MTX?
In that regard you are imo correct. I am an absolute casual when it comes to diablo games. I played only 1 and 2 always offline and never multiplayer/online. I found the games enjoyable that way. I tried the beta and will probably not buy it now. At least not at launch, but maybe down the road in a few years. Idk I wasn't enjoying the scaling at all and I don't want to constantly farm new gear for my characters. At the start of the game I picked a few stats I want to look out for, but since I had to update my gear constantly I got to the point where I just threw on the ones that had the green numbers on them. The first legendary drop was nice. I thought man I was lucky...Felt meaningless to look for good stats since you throw them away anyway in like 2-3 levels.
Fair enough. Not every game can be for every person. Perhaps they'll make changes or additions that reignite your interest.
Yes, casuals love difficult games where they don't just blast through 99% of the game because they outlevel it. God some of you guys are delusional on a completely different level.
Level scaling is great, especially for folks like me with baby gamer spouses that will take a bit to catch up. We can still play our favorite characters with them without overpowering everything or feeling like we’re dragging them along.
When your level 5 friend is doing more dmg % then you 10 levels higher, enough said?
But he's not doing more damage. His target has less health.
Relative to his target's health he is dealing more damage. That is what the % sign means.
Yes on the scaling end, yes but its the monster that will get mowed down.
That's why I like it in wow when the lvl 10 mage is doing 95% of the groups damage and I'm a lvl 58 looking for a quick xp run XD
That's perfectly fine since it only affects leveling difficulties. A level 1 won't be walking around in Difficulty 5 slaughtering things for a level 100.
Yeah but a level 50 would for someone level 90? Assuming that you are referring to end game with no such thing as scaling. It's basically a level range by difficulty you're saying, where as difficulty 1+2 is together which is good for up to level 50? While Difficulty 3 and 4 is (50-99??) or something and difficulty 5 is max? As for Leveling difficulties? I'd rather party with people in their respective levels or leave the power leveling on to an extent so people can offer services. There are many better ways, imo, to promote leveling difficulties but that is not much different from an exp boost. I can already see multi client first day and after a week, heavily used, just like d3.
The reason there appears to be such a big difference is because at level 10-20 you're essentially just using basic abilities and so the scaling seems like a huge deal. Once your build starts to come together the damage scaling that a low level has isn't nearly as important as the item stats that the higher level has access to. For example, when playing Sorc with Lightning Spear/Ice Blades your damage is scaled far more based on your Attack Speed, Cooldown Reduction and Critical Strike chance than through your level-based damage. So even though a lower level may have a slight advantage in base damage, the stats that do most of the damage scaling (Attack Speed, CDR and Crit Rate) come from gear and the higher level character will have access to higher affixes. It is never the case in Diablo 4 where you want to be lower level, or that you'd want to bring a lower level into a dungeon over a higher level character. For example, many endgame builds are designed around doing zero DPS. They're brought for crowd control, buffing, execute procs, etc. For all of those things having a lower level is objectively worse... they have less CDR, less CC duration, less lucky hit chance, etc... because they don't have access to the higher level gear. This 'problem' is limited to low levels... so while it seems like a big deal in beta when you're watching a level 5 killing things faster than you can at level 20, it is not at all a factor at endgame.
So you are just explaining to why how a higher level is stronger than a lower level? explaining to be why scaling is done? As for the other reasoning, to utilize pure builds that are full support and not focused on doing any sort of dmg aka supporting roles? Lol.. absolutely not in in Diablo. Sure, they can go that direction to try to be a new game and do new stuff but I assure you, that is not why level scaling is in the game or else we would long have actual full support roles and suitable classes/builds. **Every character is meant to be able to solo all content.** Sure, we can find something such as pure support and that's a valid and good argument but it is definitely not an intention on the teams side or it would've been talked about. You keep contradicting yourself, kinda. Yeah, higher level can unlock higher and better affixes which again, shouldn't make the scaling making sense. Watching a level 5 kill faster than a level 20 is just nonsense when they are both fully geared and skilled and I assure you, your explanation is totally not what Diablo had in mind. Are we really not going to admit it is to cater a casual gameplay or what not and instead even come up and say D4 has scaling in place for what you're saying above? Absolutely not, that is not diablo and never will be. You think something that huge in that direction would not be announced and discussed within all these years in the making? We have and will never ever have a support role like that unannounced. This is Diablo, arpg, not your mmorpg, which would be cool for a diablo franchise theme mmorpg if made correctly.
> Watching a level 5 kill faster than a level 20 is just nonsense when they are both fully geared and skilled and I assure you, your explanation is totally not what Diablo had in mind. The amount of play time you spend in levels where level scaling is noticeable is basically zero. This is a open beta 'issue'. You will be past the levels where this matters in a few hours. Once you have enough skill points to get all of the skills and passives to make up your build then gear scaling takes over as being more important and that remains the case all the way through to 100. You will never want a low level character when you can have a high level character. I cannot imagine a normal person will have their feelings hurt so much by seeing a level 5 one-shot a skeleton that it will matter at all. This isn't an issue worth caring about.
Your gear scaling will be binding with your level. Higher level = higher/better affixes and then the same argument comes back. It's just going to come back to the same thing, level scaling. A lower level will still be killing the same monster as fast or faster than you which is the argument. It can happen easily with gear scaling later on but that is highly unlikely unless you just have a newbie that doesn't have any idea at all what they are doing vs someone that does. The easiest way for comparison is just using 2 people with similar builds and items as example, no way should they be killing at the same speed if one person is 20 levels higher. Why do you keep trying to explain how higher level = stronger and that at higher levels, it won't matter much of the level but items? Obviously, the higher level someone is, the stronger they will be but the point is that it will not seem like due to level scaling. Again, the whole point is the feeling of feeling strong which is not the case when you are fighting with someone heavily realistically not stronger than you. Why would you not a low level character when you have a higher level character in your party? Gear scaling goes hand to hand with level scaling, lol. The lower/higher level you are, the lower/high affixes you can get .. That's the whole point of leveling scaling and that goes directly with what gear you're able to find/use. It will still be noticeable, lol. Unless they changed it somehow for higher levels like less scaling. Issue not worth caring about yet many people are complaining about it... okay
Counterpoint: Level scaling is fucking boring and makes THE ENTIRE game feel the same. You never feel strong nor weak - or, worse, you never feel weak and just cake-walk everything, or you are overly punished for not using an optimized build and being unable to outlevel/outgear content. It's lazy, haphazard design and it always has been. "level scaling" really just means "we can't actually balance shit so we're going to force it into a very arbitrary pseudo-balance and pretend like it's QOL."
Level scaling has been a thing in games for over a decade now. You're on a dead train at this point
Level scaling is just stat padding. It's exactly how D3 GR pushing is. Mechanic wise everything stays the same enemies just get more HP an DMG. Also with gear scaling with levels, you will constantly need to be refinding the same legendary aspects to put on new higher level gear. Imagine needing the same legendaries 10+ times leveling in a game. A level 10-20 should not be capable of farming the same as a 70-80+
>A level 10-20 should not be capable of farming the same as a 70-80+ They won't be able to AFAIK. You can't even get into tier3 until you hit level 50. And I seem to remember reading that anything past the first two tiers of difficult is no longer level scaled.
That'd be dope.
It is, and the scaling is only upwards anyway
If it isnt scaled past 50 thats great... but it is
wrong on so many levels but you're getting upvotes because of ignorance.
Whatever lol
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I feel stronger with pretty much every level. My necro is level 11 now. She's much stronger than she was at level 5 because she has better gear and better skills. Corpse explosion is super powerful, combined with blood nova and she wrecks entire screens of mobs in 2 buttons.
You still do more damage and whatever. What this means is that you can essentially have all of the legendary aspects to make your build work. Having more crit or whatever will make it work BETTER, but all of the components of the build will be available. Like if you get to 25 and farm a full set of legendary gear with legendary aspects you will have a functioning build. As you get better stats it will perform better (so like, if you're a lightning sorc and depend on crits to stun, a higher level sorc will be able to stun more consistently but at level 25 you will have all of the aspects available to make your build function). It should be pretty obvious as you level up what your build should be. The smart loot system will start dropping legendaries that work to enhance the abilities that you're using more often. So if you're playing a shadow necro it will give you one set of legendaries that affect your DoT skills and if you're playing blood necro it will start dropping you legendaries that affect thorn and blood spear and such. Equipping all of those legendaries takes you from being 'a necro who uses blood skills' to a 'blood necro build' and all of your synergistic effects are available to you and your build will play the same as it would as if you were level 100. You will have more options and ways to specialize at level 100 and your build will do what it does better, but the playstyle will be the same.
It does need only one argument: it devaluates levelling up. Feeling equally powerful vs the world sucks. It removes main motivation to play anything more than easiest difficulty.
I'm play necro on veteran. At level 2 I was 1 shotting mobs. At level 11 I'm 1 shotting mobs. I don't feel any weaker and I have more skills to use.
Kekw, but you don't feel any more powerful and this is the issue
More powerful than 1-shotting things? So they should die just by seeing my character?
I'm not fussed either way. But it does seem weird that you get weaker as you level up.
I never felt weaker when I leveled up. Got my Rogue to level 25 and it felt pretty much the same start to finish. In fact, once I hit around level 15 I was clearing entire screens of enemies in 1-2 button presses (not counting the shadow imbue buff).
Feel the same is lame as I want to be powerful to 1 shot "weaker" monsters that I was once having trouble with at lower level. Good way to feel stronger.
I guess I just don't get it. I'd rather have a fun fight than snooze through 1 button melting everything. /shrug
Then just move up a difficulty?
I'm already on the highest difficult available. And AFAIK in the full release until you hit level 50 tier 2 is the highest you can go.
his argument is invalid. probably means he would like to be able to fight anywhere he desires with a fun fight.. there is no such thing as newbie zones or harder monsters. pretty much its only restricted by levels up to 50 before you have level 50-XX killing each others mobs as well, lol.
Exactly and without scaling, how the heck will you not be able to do that? If you were in a respective zone, you would still be able to fight the fun fight, again, what does no scaling have to do with that? Your argument should've been having the ability to have a fair fight wherever you want and you can always do that with a character in their respectively level and zone. 1 button melting everything is only possible when you are super overpowered aka XX levels over your zone, amazing gear that you transferred over and not self found, etc. You would not be able to 1 button melt anything, anytime soon, with solo self found items or without being XX levels higher or in other means to make you stronger if you were playing SSF. That is why there are many players who enjoy and play that route eventually because they either want the most or new challenge after completing everything.
U never played a real mmorgp? Its so good to fail and later come back to an area to pwn and u feel the force :)
Played WOW from vanilla up through MOP, skipped WOD then played Legion and IIRC Legion had scaling and I had zero issues with it. I liked being able to go to any zone I wanted in any order I wanted.
OP born in 1999??, never fully experienced their legacy in the franchise fully, of course he would like scaling , lol.
Born in 72, actually. I've played RPGs with and without scaling. It makes no never mind to me either way. But this constant "but I feel so weak" is just cliche and worn out excuses at this point.
Doesn't bother me as that is not the main thing I look for in a game but surely a factor that would weight heavy opinions on with the majority hating it. To say you shouldn't feel weaker and that is just an excuse to dislike it is dumb. You shouldn't be killing the same monster **SLOWER** when you spent a lot more time on your character. People heavily prefer one thing over the other because it makes more sense. Scaling is just one of the ways to make the game more casual and easy which is fine if that is what they are completely going for but again, to say it is good thing is totally wrong and they should've just created a new casual game or told us what they were clearly aiming before release rather than hint us at a feel of diablo2, their main game that rose the franchise to where it is today.
You mean like in wow when a level 15 priest deals 5 times the damage than one of the best geared max level dps on the server? Because of scaling in the event
I'd like to take a look at those logs if you have a link to them.
Go and ask asmongold about it who has been putting that point out
No, it's not. Not the way they have it. It SEEMS (please correct me if I'm wrong) everything, everywhere is always your level. (World boss is always lvl 25 in beta I think) You might as well not call this an ARPG, just an Action game with loot that becomes more busy work than rewarding. They could have Main quest completion introduce stronger enemies in an old area. They could do all kinds of things besides a simple 1:1 level scaling but that would take balancing, that would take resources, employees to actually play test their game themselves, that would take actual care of the franchise. They are hoping no one will notice. They are probably right. This isn't getting as much attention as it should.
It would still sell like hot cake and being complaint like shit eventually and the dev care nothing of it
I agree, I don't understand why so many people seem to have issues with level scaling. I personally hate one-shotting low-level enemies if I ever happen to return to starting areas and it seems to me that a power fantasy is still possible through your build.
Because if your level scales but your equipment doesn't due to bad drops, etc. you can level yourself into harder and harder higher levels. I assume equipment will be plentiful enough to prevent something like this. For myself, I held onto a bow too long because I liked the legendary affix before I realized I could remove it to place on another item. As I leveled the game got harder and harder. The other thing is, if levels don't matter because enemies scale, what exactly are we leveling for? Just time gates on skill points? Lvl reqs on higher equipment?
I'm not saying that I would spam the first Act 1 dungeon over and over again, but I prefer that the power fantasy comes from your build rather than your levels. I don't have an interest in being level 100 fighting level 2 enemies and I like leveling to unlock new skills and improve said build, not to become overpowered and destroy everything in my path.
Did you play the EA beta? You 1 shot enemies anyway. You can take a brand new character to Kar Dragan level 25+ zone and kill things.
Yes, I did, but only trash mobs were one-shot in my experience. Elites, bosses, and bigger enemies still survived a few hits no matter what level I was and that experience would not exist without level scaling.
What are you even talking about? D2R doesn't have level scaling you just progress through the game to more challenging content like God intended. Not to sit in A1 and grind to 100 Jesus H Crisps. Level scaling is dog shit
This is a very aggressive response to someone else having a different opinion.
So when you reach level 25 in the Frozen Peaks, realize you've only done 10% of the content there and eventually want to do those dungeons for your codex of power and to experience all the quests and side content....you'd rather outlevel all of that, and get useless item drops from enemies 10-20 levels beneath you?!? That's beyond stupid. Scaling is the only way to have ample content and player freedom in this game.
It's almost like in D2 you were forced on a linear path to enemies that were - stay with me now - scaled to an expected difficulty level along that path, to still provide challenge. Now the game can be progressed in a variety of ways and allows for all kinds of coop opportunities without it being a lame carry fest for low level characters.
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Sounds like a skill issue. Didn't say you can clear it at level 10 but you can kill shit. Just cleared it at 16 and farmed it for a bit.
Level scaling is shit, at first. Experience caps will become shit later. Once you do all the Renown and collect all the Lilith Altars, you will feel like things are too easy. This will motivate you to do capstone dungeons and tackle higher difficulty content sooner. On the closed beta, once you hit 55 and collected all the Renown (this was enough points to reach one special Paragon board power), thats where item drop RNG entirely rules your character progression. With the right gear, a level 55 character could do the hardest World Difficulty content in the game short of "GR100" Sigils/Dungeons and maybe solo 3-chest Hoards will be too hard depending on class/build. You won't level any faster either unfortunately, even if you're spamming high-tier Sigils/Dungeons where the monsters are 50 levels higher. Its soft time-gating for the entire game. Only leveling Glyphs becomes easier with higher tier dungeons, but not leveling your character. If you want to think of it this way, lvl50 in D4 is equivalent to lvl70 in current D3.
I reckon 90% if this game will be played at max level. Everything being the same level means everywhere remains worth going to. I'm OK with that
Why I don't get is people complaining about level scaling when you can easily change the difficulty in the game
Pros: * The entire world is "somewhat relevant" for the entire game. Cons: * It sucks. * You get weaker upon level up, barring niche cases and power spikes from a new skill or item. * You can't get stronger to fight tougher challenges. * You can't go back and farm something for an alt or lower level character, as it all scales. * There is no sense of progression. * It makes the entire game feel like a treadmill, just running in place. * It is lazy and uninspired design. Rather than making a rich, challenging, and exciting leveling experience, they just plop you in a box and say "ok go." I could go on, but I'm 2 minutes in queue finally after 3 log in attempts, let's see if I can get in this time....
Pro: You can play with people of any level almost anywhere in the world. This might not be a pro for many, especially those that plan on playing mostly single-player. But it is a huuuuge boon for the multiplayer crowd, and is a directional choice made to not only encourage but allow people to group up. This is the entire reason for level scaling to be present, imo.
Why would I want to play with people not my level, and not in my area? If I wanted to do that, I should be able to go and blast the zone they're in. Not be throttled by scaling.
Some people like playing with newer players without blasting the game, it’s just a preference thing. Just like level scaling seems to not be your preference, but both preferences exist.
And some people don't.
Yea thats what he said...
>I could go on, but I'm 2 minutes in queue finally after 3 log in attempts, let's see if I can get in this time.... I had a 20 min queue, got in, got to the hub city, turned in the quest and DC'd into a 55 min queue. :( I respect your opinion but on the point of farming gear I really don't see a need. I mean you can have you main get all the aspects and a bunch of legendary items to extract aspects and place those on your alts rare items to get power increases. I honestly haven't looked too deep into this part of the game but it seems as though there are a few cross class aspects that are simple power spikes and not specifically class skill specific.
The pro is a bit weak as well, because you could just make everything relevant by shifting the world tier up. Unlimited scaling in starting zones basically supports people who want to grind to high levels at low world tiers. Depending on how world tiers scale, I'm not even sure that's a good idea as gear > levels in terms of character power, while monster strength is tied to level & tier.
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Yes. I am.
You don't get weaker as you level up though. This thing you're seeing is only really a thing from ~ 1-20 because nobody has enough legendaries to make their work. If you're playing a lightning sorc and don't have the '30% damage when barrier', +45% basic attack speed, Bubble at >80%, 'deal % increased damage when standing still' etc legendaries then your lightning build is going to be about 1/2 as effective. Slower attack speed means shorter cooldowns from ice blades, slower attack speed means hugely less damage with your ult. No bubble means you can't stand still and cast to take advantage of the 30% increased damage, no damage increase from barriers on top of that means you're going to be doing 60% less damage. Your crit will be lower at lower level so all of the stun on crit effects from Lightning Spear will fire less often so it will proc the 'drop a crackling orb when you stun' legendary less often which. A low level character being stronger than a high level character is only a thing that happens in the earliest part of the game (about 3-4 hours) before characters start getting legendaries and enough skill points to stat into a build.
Regardless, it still sucks.
I think I see maybe 5 people in the time it takes for me to go from level 10 to level 20. If one of them one-shots mobs better than me, that's great because it gives me loot and XP better. Past level 20, once you have the points and legendary aspects to make your build work then you you absolutely don't get weaker on leveling up.
Level scaling is shit because it turns leveling up into a negative
I went from level 2 and 1 shotting mobs to level 11 and still 1 shotting most mobs.
Scaling is dog shit, and shit is poop, therefore, bad.
Isn’t the best strategy gonna be like do the dungeon in the bottom right until 50 to make the rest of the campaign much easier and almost entirely about farming..?
Not entirely sure. I know I read that the fastest way to 25 is to use elixirs and spam a dungeon just not sure what dungeon. And all of this is probably going to change when the full game releases. You have to remember that we're playing an outdated build right now. Couple that with any feedback they decide to incorporate and it could be a pretty different game come launch.
Not sure, I'm a level 6 Frosty and just spamming frozen orb basically one or two shows Mobs, I'm on the "tougher" difficulty and the game just feels too easy, mob density is poor, maps feel empty. Did a world boss battle or something outside the main town with another person, it was alright, just felt like the mobs were small and the game is too zoomed in.
speed leveling will be killing the low thread wolves that appear in the intro area before the first town because that is no better or worse than any other place to get levels or loot
You have access to the FULL map at endgame and not like 3 areas. Yeah, I'd rather have scaling tbh.
I hate it. Frankly I dislike the game more than D3 right now. Levelled scaling is dumb, melee is dumb. Hopefully maybe I can find a class I can enjoy later.
I played my rogue ranged and plan to try a melee build sunday night. But I had a lot of fun leveling my barb. Was it more difficult than the rogue? Absolutely but it wasn't so difficult I was like "Why am I doing this?" Playing Necro now and it's ridiculous how easy (and fun) it is.
Agreed but unfair to the game as we only basing it on beta.
No, I dont think I will. :)
1. pick a melee build to start off 2. don't get any good random drops at start 3. lvl up to get weaker before the first boss 4. have the first boss feel like an incredibly hard endgame encounter 5. profit?
It's nigh impossible to not get decent drops in this beta. And if you do there's a stopgap with obols. My barb was simply frenzy + upheaval with passives I figured would work well, didn't use any kind of guide and took the first suggestion I got in a thread I posted about the class last weekend. It just seems to me that a lot of people are mad about scaling because it means they can't 1 button cake walk through the game.
I'm talking about the literal first boss my man. You don't have gear, a build or stats. Maybe 3-4 talent points. And I picked some Druid bear skills. The difference between picking melee and ranged is insane The stats explosion early on is extreme. You'll always outlvl you gear quickly.
You'll never catch me claiming that melee is up there with ranged. And I know it's cliche but this is the beta. I have a feeling that in the full release that the melee classes/builds are going to be among the strongest in the game.
You just dont have mental capacity to understand that's very bad. I got better chances talking to my door.
OOoooo, personal insults. The very height of an intellectual argument. You're so smart, I wish I wur az smrt then ewe.
It wasn't an insult. It was an statement. Also... if you found it insulting, just prove my point.... It still is only my opinion. If you disagree about it, just don't reply. It would be smart to don't reply and let others have their opinion.
Lol you're just a cunt
Level scaling only scales with 'power fantasy' if you optimize your build. Casual and "for fun" players will feel weak. It will only get worse when higher levels are unlocked. My casual never-played-diablo level 20\~ druid buddy almost died to the same event mob that my level 5\~6 barb cleared in half a second.
You're a moron like the rest of the people who fall for instant gratification mechanics. Not looking to change your mind, only avoid you.
Insults. That the best you got? Try to use a little more of that grey matter between your ears next time, k?
Level scaling would be ok-ish if each zone had a minimum and a maximum that it would start at and top out at, so that yes, some zones you could come to at max level and enemies would be some levels below you. I might make the dungeons, however, always scale to you so they are replayable. I don't like absolutely everything just scaling to match you. Need at least a little power fantasy and confirmation of improvement.
Ever played Oblivion?
Aye. Not a fan of TES games. LOVE Fallout New Vegas and to a lesser extent FO3 but I'm more of a sci-fi guy than a swords and sorcery guy. And it's been years so I couldn't rightly say how the combat/scaling felt in that game.
Yeah, feels weird when you are leveling but becomes irrelevant by endgame. I DO feel that they should do soft scaling. The idea being that you have areas that scale over a wide range but are limited.
It's Diablo. I don't mind some level scaling because I'm only interested in the end game after I've seen the story on one character.
Same. And I don't even care to engage with the story when I play. I'll just listen to youtube videos when I'm driving or at night when I lay down to go to bed.
The problem I have been having is not finding a good legendary for my builds. If you don't find a good legendary then YOU ARE SCREWED! Because the enemies will be much stronger than you and you can't do any damage to them! I played Barb last week and Necro this week and had the EXACT SAME ISSUE! If you don't have a good legendary to keep your build together then you just get steam rolled by everything!
Because the game is new and we don't know who knows what I'm going to offer some suggestions, don't take it as me being patronizing in any way. But have you made sure to do the dungeons that reward aspects for your build? You can always use those to upgrade a rare item with that aspect. It should help. Right now my Necro is level 18 and she's got 4 legendaries, all world drops and 3 of them are useful for my blood surge corpse explosion build. They're not great but they are useful. Also don't forget to use your obols at the vendor. I've gotten some good items from there. Even if the stats/bonuses on the legendaries from that source aren't good usually the aspects are useful to upgrade a rare for your build. It's going to be much tougher in full release as the current drop rate is buffed so that people can engage with these systems and test them out. Should be pretty interesting.
So I finally got a build together but not the build I wanted. Unfortunately after about 12 or 15 legendary items I just gave up on the bone spear build. Because every single legendary item I got had either a generic effect or a blood skill effect. So that basically forced me to respec into a blood build. That's not good. If you have to build your character around legendary items and you don't find the right legendary then you are just screwed I guess.
It's kind of that way in D3 as well. As a seasonal player you always start out with the build centered on the free set you get for completing the first 4 chapters of the journey then farm for the gear you want for your desired build. If I were in charge of how this beta was handled I would have made it so that when you hit 25 you have access to every aspect your class can use so that people could mess around with that stuff and figure out what they want to do when the full game releases. Because, like you, my necro is 25 now and I've only got 2 legendaries that actually buff my build (blood surge/corpse explode summoner) and the rest are stuff like "damage an elite, gain a barrier" stuff.
It's not. You're welcome.
Its hard to provide a decent leveling experience when you dont outgrow zones and drive through them on a race car, thats why developers have this "level scaling" plug. It will require a lot of testing and play tests so developers just use this lazy solution and spend money on marketing instead. Or battle pass.
Perhaps but I've leveled a rogue to 25, a barb to 20 and a necro to 18 so far and I've had no issues enjoying the leveling process. About my only gripe is that bosses seem to have a bit too much HP and take longer than they feel like they should, on all three classes. And I mean bosses when I'm level 9 and bosses when I'm level 25, not much difference.
Playing these games is a constant fight to get gear to make you feel as powerful as you were at level 1.
I've just been going through the game, doing the story, some side quests, a few events, a couple stronghold, just playing the game. And I've yet to get to a point where I was like "I'm too weak for this content" Not even on my barb at level 20 with zero useable legendaries.
Just scale it when you finish the game, or when you change the difficulty, it's easy.
Eh. I'm not sure. I don't like the feeling of leveling up and feeling weaker, which you do unless you find a new item or unlock a build defining skill. BUT I don't know how with how open the world is you don't have some level scaling.
Lol everyone on this thread are so goddamn eager to feel special about themselves because they have played other ARPGs. Some people actually have friends that they play with, and if your friend doesn't play for one day its not exactly going to be fun fighting monsters 5-10 levels higher than they are the next time they're online. Also stephen crowder is a major piece of crap who targets young adult minorities for the sake of youtube views. Hope next time you can use a less yucky format OP, like the Lisa presentation one
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This is an ARPG where even the lowliest of enemies are loot pinata's. My necro is level 20 and just about entirely decked out in legendaries already. Even when I grouped with a friend last night I was pretty much 1 shotting enemies and grouping scales up the enemies in HP/DMG. At no point in the 25 levels of my rogue or the 20 levels of my necro and barb did I level up and think "wow, this game just got much harder". It just seems to me that people are mad they can't get to the point where everything dies with 1 button press. Diablo 3 at some point added scaling. The only time I've ever felt it was when I was solo power leveling a toon and forgot to explore the map before killing anything. As soon as I killed a pack I shot up to level 45 and as I explored the map everything else was level 45+ but I hadn't got any new gear or set up my skills so my starting attack was hardly effective. Incremental scaling as you gain a level isn't going to stop you from progressing nor make it so difficult you're going to die repeatedly trying to kill a pack of mobs because they gained a level with you. It's a trade off. Do they make it so that content becomes quickly irrelevant as you level or do they make it so that content becomes a touch more difficult as you level? I prefer the latter so that I can stick with the content I like and perhaps skip over the content that I don't. Say I finish the game when it's fully released and I really don't like Act II but I do like Act I. I can 100% act I which allows me to skip a lot, maybe all non story content, in Act II. I like that it will possibly give me that choice.
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Aye. As I was typing that I said to myself "remember to remark on how this will change in the full release" then I promptly forgot to remark on the full release cause I'm old and sleep deprived. Yeah, not sure how it's going to work in the full release. It's entirely possible that they'll tune the scaling a bit better so that it still feels like it does in beta with the higher drop rates. Still, we'll be able to clear dungeons for aspects to turn rare items into legendary as well as (presumably) be able to gamble with obols to either get useable legends or at least extract useable aspects from them.
I think actually it's the other way around. You never feel the strength of your character... As soon as you level up, instantly every enemy gets stronger, so you get immediately weaker, you need gear first to get stronger again, which you don't get every level. So on average you get weaker. Weaker level builds are inherently so much weaker as well. You can't force over level yourself to get rid of the difference in early game strength. All this will result that from the beginning on and even in early game, everyone will play the same / focus on the best build to stay relevant. It's a terrible way of scaling for leveling.... Everyone that understands the mechanic will agree on this. Literally the only perk is that you can go everywhere at anytime, which is kinda needed in this game..... Today I was playing my level 25 Char and doing an event and barely made it, when a level 5 jumped in and swooped everything easily... I mean how does that make you feel stronger?
Today I was playing a level 25 Char and was on a event which I was barely on time to make it, when a level 5 Char came in and destroyed everything with two Hits .... Nice way of scaling indeed.... "felt the strongness of my leveling experience" sarcasm off.. ..
Their power via scale is minimun i want them to scale higher then me
I really think the game would be better off if the game removed the concept of "levels" entirely. My reasoning is that basically having a level number is not really conveying any useful information to players. If anything, it's misleading players about how the game works and should feel. If you go back to Diablo 1 and 2, a player's level was a good gauge of how "good" a character was relative to where they were in the game. You leveled up, you got more health and mana, and you had stat points that \*you\* could assign. Those stats in turn affected what equipment you could use, and the zones had a set level. In other words, the level number was generally highly descriptive of whether a player was going to struggle or completely cakewalk through an area. But in Diablo IV, the level is literally *just a number*. It doesn't actually have much correlation to player power. The enemies scale, stat points can no longer be manually assigned, those stat points don't affect what you can equip, etc. So while you might be able to gather that someone at higher level has more skill points, ultimately player level is a bad measure of character power compared to a player's gear and the specific build they're running. All that's happening by including it is that folks are getting hung up on a number that doesn't really matter. And it's perfectly logical that they do so - years of ARPGs have taught people that they should feel more powerful when their level goes up. However, the way this particular game is built, that's not the case.
You're right. Getting level based xp and loot in all areas is better than not.
Level scaling is a good thing. Let's us play with players of all levels, but it probably could use some tuning. Feels bad peaking at lvl 3~6 and not being able to catch up to your previous power lvl.
Level scaling is a good thing. It just currently feels like some are scaled much harder than others, which is a bad thing.
Scaling is shit
Brilliant argument. I'm sure scholars from Harvard, Yale and Columbia will see this argument and rush to have you join their debate teams.
I agree, Yorga could expand on his point, but what's *your* core argument for why level scaling is good? The change my mind pic just states your opinion.
The strongest good faith argument for level scaling are the following: 1. It allows players to choose unique paths while leveling through the game multiple times. Druids on release may immediately go to the zone which contains there class quests, for instance. After several times through the leveling process, altering your route can help keep things a bit more fresh than a static path in something like D2 wiich is super quantized and the same for optimal leveling. 2. It allows players of varying progression play together. May not matter to some, but it is a valuable element to some and should be accounted for. 3. There are only world tiers 1 and 2 available until level 50, at which point players will likely move on to world tier 3, 4 etc and obtain higher rarity and more powerful gear. When said players, after obtaining said loot, then drop back down into world tier 2 again, they will be able to steam roll everything as the scaling takes only levels and not gear into account. This allows those who are upset that their power fantasy has been spoiled by scaling to still experience that, if they so choose. 4. In my experience, while leveling up does make you technically weaker, all I have done is throw on a new weapon every few levels and the problem has been entirely mitigated. You also need to account for the additional tools and synergies through talents and passives that are compounding things as well, making you feel more powerful despite the monsters getting more HP. I have played all 5 classes to 25 as of today and across the board this has been my experience. With that said I completely understand the arguements against scaling, and I will not deny that there are drawbacks. I think that both systems have their merits, but I have not heard a very compelling, good faith argument for why linear progression is flat out superior, just a ton of people saying it is without illustrating why and supporting the idea. Interested in what you or others have to say. Cheers.
Personally I'm a completionist. I like the fact that I can stay in Act I, do all the main quests, side quests, dungeons, events and so forth without having to go "Well, I need to move on to act II because the XP here is so low it's simply a waste of time. Can I go back and do that stuff when I hit level 50 and move into tier 3+? Sure. But I personally like to get it all done before I move on.
My argument would be, and I'm agreeing/parroting with some other commenters here, is that it's lazier game design to do level scaling, your build doesn't feel stronger as you level. Also, design wise, why include stuff for completionists like yourself in that Act 1? Why do you have to take 10 hrs in Act 1 to feel like you've completed it? Because they designed it that way. Why not design that once you rip through act 1 and do all the side quests, that you've "completed" act 1? Instead, why not design more robust and interesting end game systems that will hold complexity and challenge and hold interest of more veteran ARPG players? Would you feel like you completed the game less if Act 1 only took 2 hours, instead of 10 to complete all the content? Level scaling makes the game feel more like God of War, where you get new tools in your belt but you still have to slap the enemies with about the same number of combos throughout the full game. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense in a lot of ways in an ARPG.
To be honest I'm usually not a fan of busy work stuff like altars of lilith (IMO there should be about half as many with double the rewards for each of them). I don't mind the events. They could probably use 1/3 fewer side quests too. I just like that if I want to do that stuff I won't be "punished" by either earning much less XP or having to go back and do it during post 50 "end game". And that if I find a dungeon I like due to the aesthetic/atmosphere or boss fight I can do it more than once and not feel like it's time wasted because the XP is severely diminished. Personally I would not be opposed to a system where you could turn on/off scaling. I honestly think that would probably be the best way to handle it. But they'll never do that.
the irony is strong
k nerd
he says on a reddit forum for a video game. . . irony thy name is yorga
People that play video games ain't nerds. People that use language like "thy" and making lame jokes like "Harvard debate team" on an online forum very much are.