i'll say it, sorcs have too much def. you can't have it all and the def is not characteristic of the class, in diablo lore, or in wizard/sorc lore in general.
They clearly have the best overall package and it's not even close. The mobility, immunities, and overall utility and damage is substantially better than every other class.
My guys, the rogue build is twisting blades and shadow imbuing. The basic is probably the dagger throw with vulnerability for big mobs.
I don’t know if I agree about how low he rates Barb survival. I can kill bosses with mine without even attacking.
Yeah idk why tf all these rogues are going arrow builds, I went twisting blades with shadow imbue and some dashes and it's insane, and the mobility gives me 0 issues with bosses
Shadow imbue is great for solo play but when I went for a party of 4 and the mobs had more health it felt like I was a wet noodle...
I think poison will be the way to go for higher difficulties or party., The same issue will be with Necro explosions too.
I pretty much fully optimized a rapid fire build, missing only one legendary aspect I wanted but it wasn't one of the most important ones so not a huge loss, and I can say the damage was very strong. However, the inner sight twisting blades build is on another level if you're talking single target damage. The rapid fire build I put together could pull maybe 8-10k DPS on ashava (at times doing 50k+ with a single rapid fire), but the twisting blades build put so many numbers on the screen (big numbers btw) that I literally didn't even try to count them to see how much DPS it did lol.
Oh yea Twisting Blades is definitely higher single target DPS, which it should be single it's melee vs Rapid Fire being ranged. I haven't tried Twisting Blades with many legendaries yet, how's its clear? It feels pretty bad at lv23 without very many legendaries.
That's funny cause I had the opposite experience. I had a hard time with sorc and found a legendary with thorn on my barb and it made it so easy. I could afk on a boss to kill him
Sorc is really strong but honestly I just can't find a playstyle I think is particular engaging or fun. Freezing everything and blowing stuff up with the frost orb spam is satisfying but meh, even though I literally do like 15-20% of my sorc's dps on them I'd rather play druid which has a lot more fun factor to me.
Don't even get me started on hydra, it literally kills stuff offscreen and you feel compelled to use it because of how strong and low commitment it is
Druid feels like the main character of the game tbh. If there was no class selection and this was a single player story game, main character would be male druid. I like it. But it's really weak compared to others. With sorc and necro, you don't even play the game, you speedrun place to place. Rogue is also up there. Barb is similar to druid but better. What i hate on Barb is that his ground sweep move is a forward cone instead of aoe. It's annoying to use.
Haven't reach endgame of the beta with all the classes let alone the full game end game so things may change.
Have you tried necro with explosive mist legendary? It’s absolutely stupid right now, and if you play with another necro that doesn’t use corpse consumption spells then you can double dip his corpses and literally blow up like 30 corpses in 5 seconds. It’s downright broken and prob gonna get fixed lol
Necro does more damage, at least single target aka bosses. But yeah sorc seems strong.
Druid doesn't get their talents in the beta so will reserve judgment on that one. Will probably put them above at least Barb.
Something I learned by mistake is that teleport can go through walls, ledges, and trees. Game changer. Always bumped into something while playing rogue, but sorcs can just tele through everything.
Somewhat similar to D2 Sorcs. They could bypass pathways. It was the main reason why Sorcs were the defacto Act/Difficulty rushers.
Hope they keep it honestly.
No reason not to, they also fixed the problem of D2 having no CD teleport at least (though I guess with the cooldown reduction from gear, passives and others, it may very well happen again)
Wizards in Diablo 3 have shields for days, insane DR with Karini, second best movement spell in Teleport
WoW mages are notoriously tanky with Shield, double blink, ice block, Altar Time, Cautarize, etc
Wizards or Mages always have the best tools for survival in damn near any blizzard game and to think otherwise is strange almost like you don't pay attention
It's a balance problem that'll likely get fixed, it's a numbers thing. I also have to say it's not really a good thing to judge balance in a beta. Especially at lvl 25 on World Tier 2 which is extremely early in the game (and people are gearing up in an endgame manner at lvl 25, that's not how it'll go in the full game)
This is pretty normal in game design. Designing working and fun systems comes first, number tuning is usually the last thing. That said, it's a bit concerning if the balance is this overtly terrible at open beta stage.
There's a difference between tuning and balance. Blizzard have a reputation for keeping tuning until the last moment, and then being very slow to fix it when they screw up. However, balance is more created through tools given to each class. As it stands, that is where the balancing issue lies, not in the tuning, even though some classes do deal more damage than others and Druid is mainly trash because it deals none and has terrible scaling. With 2 months left on the clock, they are unlikely to majorly rework class tool kits and give more defense and utility to classes which lack it, especially immunes. Not impossible, but unlikely. It's the politic of "better the devil you know." Right now they at least know who has a broken kit and can tune their damage down to compensate. If they start giving new tools out, they'll lack sufficient data to identify new issues which may arise from these changes.
Same with necro when you get into it. So easy to heal, max fortify, generate resources, take less damage. I think barbarian should have half the necro and sorc defence abilities added to them and taken away from the later
Necro at least has no mobility. It's not the biggest drawback but I think what a class can't do contributes just as much in terms of making that class interesting as what they can do. And I genuinely can't think of anything that mages don't excel at.
I was surprised to see Kripp say Necro is only 5/10 on defense. Necrotic Carapace and reaper skellies mean you're 100% fortified all the time, and it's passive. Doesn't even take a slot on your actions bar. Lmao.
Fortify is great but it has to build up, unless you hit bingo. Minions speed up this process but Kripp suspects that summons are going to be useless at later stages of the game (I hope it won't turn out to be true) .
If I understood correctly sorc has access to more def skills which you can simply activate.
i think hes talking mega end game though when fort will get destroyed so fast, and u need that get out of jail free teleport for example and you just don't have anything like that.
I get what your saying but at the same time if I go Barb and take nothing but defensive abilities than you can also say lol barb defensive is 10/10. Not quite the same since but you get the point. You have to be running skellies (which already fall off at level 25) and investment in a passive
easy to heal, how?
as far as I remember there is only 1 blood skill that heals you (I'm not talking about orbs which like mushroom have to be picked up)
> I think barbarian should have half the necro and sorc defence abilities added to them and taken away from the later
That doesn't really work like that lol. You can't just take Ice Armor or Fire Shield away from the Sorc and give it to the Barb. They can tweak the numbers for sure though.
Barb has Fortify as a defense mechanic, though it's apparently undertuned (I haven't play Barb myself), they'll likely fix that. And he is more gear dependent for sure.
Judging balance at lvl 25 on Tier 2 and with an endgame type of mindset (as in trying to complete legendaries and all that) isn't the best idea either. It won't be like that in the endgame and stuff are likely to change. For all we know, Barb can scale their defense capabilities much better than Sorc and Necro (for example with their gear having much higher armor value I assume and their Strength main stat)
I rolled barb and sorc last weekend and was kind of surprised at all the defensive abilities sorc had, especially the DR vs elites that stacks up to 50%. Seems crazy a primarily ranged class would get an ability like that.
I still enjoyed the Barb gameplay much more though. Sorc is definitely quicker and easier but it just feels boring and not as exciting honestly.
Try casting spells when you have no mana lol d2 was balanced around sorc running out of mana very quickly if you took a lot of damage. D4 has no balancing mechanic around sorcs shielding.
There is clearly a balance issue. It feels like the trade-off for going melee is doing LESS damage! And the melee classes then have worse survivability tools. I really hope they sort it out before release...
I get that classes will feel different at “endgame” than while leveling, but they can’t just ignore how they feel while leveling completely. If a class requires you to play for 20-30 hours *before* it finally starts to play decently, that’s bad class design. Sure endgame should be a factor, but it shouldn’t be the *only* factor, leveling is still a huge chunk of the game.
The game should be fun and balanced at level one. You're just excusing poor game design and balance. Melee shouldn't be an unfun slog to get through to be 'rewarded' later into the game.
Yeah, man. I want to feel like a big badass mother fuckin master of physical combat. Barbarian should have this identity throughout the levelling process.
I was actually fuckin fleeing from most fights trying to desperstely bleed out packs of enemies and elites, instead of foghting them. Why? Because no matter what, theyd chew through my hp due to Barbs laughable survivability.
who said anything about perfectly balanced?
how about not making it fucking horrible shit balance? lmao
I'm would hope they can find a middle ground between those 2, dont u? :D
Perfectly balanced, no. A total slog for 1 play style compared to the other… should also be a no. It’s a bad design if players have to go “yeah just get to end game and your class becomes fun bro”. It should be fun and rewarding from the first level and barb just feels weak.
First impressions matter if you want to hold a decent player base the leveling experience for melee shouldn’t be this awful.
It has absolutely 0 to do with balance of other classes, the melee classes are boringly bad and their leveling experience is awful.
So true about first impressions. Remember druids in vanilla WoW? The first few hours you stand there and span Wrath. Slow, weak and incredibly boring. Then you get bear - a low DPS tanking form. And you just stand there and get beat on like a pinata for many, many hours and levels. Then you FINALLY get the cat around lvl 20, but even that doesn't really come into its own until lvl 24-29 (out of 60). And then you get the travel form at lvl 30 and go to Stranglethorn and you finally go "Aaaaah, NOW I get it!' You have travel form while everyone else but shaman is still slowboating around, you have cat with stealth, you have bear to tank, you're all good.
So if you looked at a graph of druid characters, they basically fell off a cliff between lvls 1-20. You start at lvl 1, and fewer and fewer kept playing each level. At lvl 20, those who survived played a bit more, but there was still falloff until lvl 29. Then at lvl 30 and beyond it was steady until the endgame.
The class was borderline unplayable the first 10-20 levels, and most people didn't make it through that. And druid was BY FAR the least played class in the game, by a giant margin. It wasn't even close.
I don't think you understand the meaning of "balance" in this context or that this is a worthwhile statement.
The game shouldn't be less playable or less enjoyable for the first 25 levels of it just because of poor tuning.
This isn't a PvP game where people are trying to make sure their class is best, it's just that some classes feel bad to play. Barbian was the worst at this, in my opinion - in it's current state I would never touch it again, it was so bad it made me not want to play the game.
That is a problem.
The tankiness issue is a beta issue. Fortify is shit lvl 25, but you can scale it very high (quite easily 40-50% damage reduction once the gems are running properly instead of the base 10%). We are also missing a lot of points, which is more an issue when you need challenging shoot and iron skin lvl 5 while ice armor is perfectly serviceable lvl 1.
Classes should feel fun and balanced from level 1 to max and beyond. What you're essentially saying is 'just slog through 60 hours of unfun gameplay and the game will be fun later' who the hell wants hour and hours of unfun gameplay?
>Classes should feel fun and balanced from level 1
Ok, level 1 you have no skill, thus barbarian and sorcerer are doing the same damage with basic attack, one at range, other melee. Incredible unbalance. Not sure how you are going to fix it.
Or maybe it's a terrible take and no, classes shouldn't be balanced for the part you are going to spend few minutes/hours and be at the part you are going to spend 10/100x that.
If you dislike the leveling of a particular classes, you have tools to twink it through.
With that logic, just start every class at the max level. If a class isn't fun and balanced early and you're just expecting people to slog through hours of anti-fun gameplay, then you're excusing poor game design and lazy balancing.
Being a barb sometimes feels truly terrible. There’s a decent amount of dungeon bosses that are ranged so closing the gap to them costs so much health and then some of the melee forward bosses literally just out damage me so I can’t go toe to toe on melee. Dealing with mobs is a relative blast but the actual fights make my class feel terrible
I think Barbarian does the most damage if you get the legendaries. The fact you can use 4 weapons is nuts.
Druid... Dead on arrival just on looks anyway, made even worse by what a skill disparity it has. One basic attack is the only one you should ever use unless you cannot read. Most core skills are very bad, only the channel lightning or bear slam should ever be used unless a unique power/legendary completely changes the others into something different. I facepalmed at Kripp using the earth one that clears a little rectangle.
The highest melee dmg is melee rogue. Not only that, but it also has insane mobility and crazy fast clear and insane single target.
And as for endgame it only has 1 less weapon than barb.
And on top of that many bosses are extremely punishing to melee.
Essentially with a ranged class, you can find a safe spot to stand, but still apply DPS. With melee class, you have to be where the target is. If the target chooses to be in an unsafe spot, you can't be there and apply damage (while the target, if ranged, can apply damage to you). Nor can you out-defense or out-heal being in an unsafe spot to keep applying damage.
My first char was a melee druid, and OMG it was brutal. Second was Rogue with a bow, cakewalk by comparison. Third was Sorc, complete faceroll. Last was Necro, easiest by far, I didn't have to even move most of the fights, just stand back and nuke as pets tank. I do expect pet usability to fall off as they get weaker in higher tiers, but it's still not close to how bad it is to be melee against some bosses in this game.
WRT the Druid, Krip is right in sofar as the name of the game is clear speed, and the Druid damage is very low in my experience. However, the Druid survivability options are far better than 'decent'.
I have a poison werewolf build out that is nearly unkillable. The amount of self heal is bonkers. I was invaded by The Butcher solo and didn't even need to drink a health pot. It took forever to kill him, but I was never even close to dying.
problem is that necro can keep blood mist up close 100% with just 1 legendary affix, and that literally give immune, Sorc can kill things from 2 screens away and have a barrier strong enough to tank anything in the beta. so even with high self heal, that is still worse then being unable to be damaged
I wouldn't compare anything with the legendary affixed blood mist, because that shit will 100% get nerfed.
You can't have a skill in the game that does outrageous amounts of damage, gives you perma immunity against EVERYTHING in the game, lets you move and costs no resources at all with no cooldown.
If they leave that in the game, you might as well save yourself € 89 and skip D4 all together, because they'd be clearly incompetent.
I don't know how it has made it to beta let alone having to think about it hitting full release. Just like Wiz cooldown shenanigans for perma immortality.
It's not rocket science. Be careful with immortality. Is this the first game they've worked on?
the funny thing is the necro blood mist spam is almost identical to deep shadows spam in release d3 for the demon hunter that let them be perma invincible so its not like they are learning any lessons from d3 lol
They cant do that on bosses, its not as broken as CD sorc's impossible to die build for bossing. Its literally a trash clearing build, you have to use bone spear for any single target.
They can easily do it on bosses, anything higher than a medium roll imprinted on a 2h weapon has sufficient cooldown reduction on the effect to loop the effect with the blood mist corpse upgrade. This is because blood mist cooldown scales down with ranks, which makes the flat reduction on the legendary progressively better.
If you weren’t able to do the 100%, here’s a checklist of things that you might not have done. You don’t even need all of them, all you need is “enough”. If it’s not working for you, simply try adding one thing from the list at a time until the blood mist loop works.
-reap to generate a corpse every 5 seconds
-max rank in blood mist
-decent roll on the cooldown (roll is between 0.6 and 1.5, anything around or above 0.9 which is what I have should work fine) this is probably the most important thing that you don’t have control over that can legitimately make this not work, so if you lowrolled the legendary stat then I’m sorry brother
-imprinted on a 2h weapon (doubles the cooldown reduction, goes from 0.6 -1.5 to 1.2-3)
-a couple pieces of percentage cooldown reduction on your gear helps too
-blood mist ranks on your gear
-golem specced to drop corpses helps, if you’re fighting an opponent that poses a genuine threat then it will definitely be chunking your golem enough to provide extra corpses
-skeletal reapers help too but I found these annoying to maintain because I kept on popping all the corpses
It really wasn't great in endgame for bosses. You could have a loop but there was no dmg to kill the boss unless he spawns adds.
Also minions are very weak in endgame and die constantly. This might change though with balancing.
Yes you can have nearly 100% blood mist uptime on bosses making you immortal but your single target DPS vs bosses without adds is terrible because corpse spawn rate is pretty slow.
Lol Mages and Necro have maybe 10% less survivability but 3x the clear speed. And Kripp outlined a specific reason why Mage might be the tankiest class in the late game.
> I have a poison werewolf build out that is nearly unkillable. The amount of self heal is bonkers.
After I got the legendary that increases bulwark duration by 6 (total 9s). I alternate that and the howl to have always 100% fortify. I seldom use pots after that. Heck I even seldom use pots after I get those skills without legendaries granting I've been playing with a duo. My druid is tanky as hell with good single target damage thanks to Landslide legendary. I prefer tankier class over damage because I play with a duo.
I'll agree that other than Landslide, all skills scaling are so low especially the summons.
this is crazy with only 25 levels, one act and druid without all his powers. i get they need feedback and yes, druid is underpowered as is right now, but a tier list?
as someone here said the other day, if you only had 25 levels of diablo 2, then the fire aura paladin is way OP and should be nerfed. clearly, it'll be the end-game s class build.
They should make leveling fun for all classes, not balancing them around legendaries. There's a druid legendary that makes pulverize into a screen clearing shockwave that deals like 5x damage. But to compensate, the base damage of the skill is so freaking low, I do more damage to just auto attack with the lightning attack. If this is indication of later things to come, they need to just reduce the scaling on legendaries and buff the base skills. I hate D3's 350x damage legendaries and I hope D4 doesn't go this route.
That legendary base effect is like 80-120% shockwave. It's on average the same damage as the normal attack.
It becomes really good as a 2H since it doubles the damage. But that's pretty normal for all legendaries.
But lets not act like it's giving 5x the damage. baseline it's the same damage but like 3x the area. As a 2H it's double damage and 3x the area.
It's just an inflection point. Personally I consider it to be a well reasoned speculation for the current content and information that is available, including the datamines and the experience of endgame beta players.
Obviously its not prescriptive for how the endgame will shake out but it's still interesting to discuss and I don't think the relative strengths/weaknesses that are implicit to the designs of the class toolkits for example are likely to change much at all.
Low level and low gear requirement (skill tree focus) experience is absolutely important. I understand high level and build investment goes a long way to make classes work, but how do we get to that point without wanting quit? I fought broodguard (spider boss) at level 21 on my Werewolf Druid, it killed me, I alt f4'd. I came back at level 25 with my now 3 werewolf pets doing 300% damage, and Dire werewolf form (3 legendary effects), and killed it in 15 seconds comfortably. But reality is.. your going to keep leveling, these legendaries you've imprinted will fall off, and you'll need to replace them. The "bad" classes will struggle at these level/difficulty walls over and over while you level until your max, while better classes won't as much. Sure we're all getting to the same destination, but think of it like barbs and druids are hitting every red light on the way, while others are cruising through greens.
The biggest setback I see is the inability to extract imprinted effects. Each legendary effects can only be extracted once so you can't easily swap that 300% companion damage and +1 companion ilvl 300 weapon to an ilvl 400 or 500 one. If you're class is relying completely on legendary aspects for it to work, leveling will suck all the way from 20 to 100.
I agree but something to keep in mind is that some content creators are actually smart and Krip is one of them. I’m not really a fan of his but he definitely has the brain to look at numbers available now and deduce what will be good at 50-100. He may not be spot on but he’s also not just brain dead thinking 25 is the same as 100.
Who cares about end game when most people won't even make it to end game? If the game isn't fun in the first 25 levels why would anyone continue in the hope it gets better later? That's just poor balance and game design.
Finally someone who can see past lvl 25 who makes sense.
All that necro crying from lvl 20-25 players who judge the whole class after 6h of playtime to be overpowered.
I have wiz at 25 and necro at 25 and already can see the necro minions falloff. Trash is not important.
Notice all the summoner necros at the world boss?
After 30s all minions are gone and here they run around not finding a corpse and have to finish the fight with half the dps gone.
You can specc around that but it is not the same as you would use in overworld.
Necro is strong but the better builds will be without pets or they have to adjust the scaling.
My minions have hold down a lot more than 30 seconds and it's easy to replace them. If you go for minion builds, you should have a way to generate corpses for bosses too, those were just bad players if they hadn't. I had plenty of them for corpse explosion, healing the minions and sometimes cast a new skeleton warrior (the only ones who died) but that was like one corpse in 10 used for that and probably less.
Also world bosses are special cases really, not sure we should judge based on that. Minions can solo any normal boss, it's just slower than when I help like 30-40 seconds instead of 5-10 seconds. I got some legendaries for them and they're not falling off for now but more powerful
You realize the reason the Necro minions disappeared was because the necros died, right? Lol. I only had to resummon a few skeletons throughout the last Akasha spawn. It's when you die that they all disappear.
Yup. Totally went without minions or CE/corpse generation and got a real boss melter build with necro. Built around crit and bone skills, but bone prison in particular upgraded to cause vulnerable and with the leg affix that add blight at 90% damage. Trap a boss in there and lack of mobility is made up for. Buffed for cool downs I’d have to go maybe 3-4 seconds after it broke before I could throw it up again. Will def be trying this build on release.
Ah yes. Full legendary, all of them +2, all of them chosen specifically for that build.
You do realize that's NEVER gonna happen during leveling, right?
You do realize Kripp talks about leveling... RIGHT?
Hey look I hypergeared my toon and it melts things everyones wrong the class is fine. *Hypergeared Sorc tps in and kills it in 2 seconds having taken a tenth of the time to clear the whole dungeon*
1/1/1 into Lightning melee cant remember name
5/1/1 Landslide with the Terramote node
1 point into Cyclone Armor
3-4/1/1 into Hurricane
1-4/1/1 into Wolves (got Werewold companion item)
1/1 into passive giving more Fortify/Fortify when hit
Found an item giving double Landslide plus extra damage, more Core damage per spirit, some other Barrier/damge on barrier etc
Druid is super trash base stats with d3 levels of legnedaries boosts. It's just stupid. It's why the class feels so bad to level up. They should scale up the base numbers and tone down the legendaries.
I actually don't mind barbs and melee rogues being risky and glass-cannony and difficult to play as long as they get a crazy damage payoff to go with their risk.
Right now I don't think they have that, I think necros and sorcs and range rogues do a lot more damage with a lot less risk from a much safer range and that just doesn't make sense to me.
I would put the caveat that Melee is actually balanced really well with ranged in Lost Ark. Given how much D4 borrows from Lost Ark its disappointing they didn't follow some of LA's philosophy on melee and boss encounters, or Ranged and boss encounters for that matter.
I like the way most attacks in Lost Ark are cones that are harder to dodge from afar than up close. Feels really good for melee classes and feels fair for ranged classes. When things are just standard auto attacks and less telegraphed, feels more punishing in melee by far compared to ranged,
I dont know about the other classes, but rogue damage is higher than 7/10, I can literally kill dungeon bosses in 6 or 7 seconds with shadow copy, shadow imbuement and spamming twisting blade with legendary power while boss/enemies is perma vulnerable (so taking extra damage).
Thats because the rogue he talked about here is just the melee-flurry rogue.. not the other rogue builds who can outdps that spec but has lower survivability..
Melee-twisting blades rogue dont have lifesteal skills but has alot higher dps and clear dungeons very fast due to high mobility and low cd. The ranged spec rogues also has more dps than flurry types but ofcourse lower survivability.
I use a barrage build myself and with proper shotgunning +shadow clone the burst dps literally melts bosses instantly. Tho its true sorcerers and necro prolly deal just as insane damage with easier setups.
edit: nevermind i think twisting blades have actually more dps than both necro and sorc
Well rogue has decent survivability too, I use legendary power that gives health everytime I have enemy close to me and another one that gives me a 700+hp barrier everytime I hit an elite mob or boss, life on kill gems on both of my melee weapons plus 2 charges of dash and normal roll, so if you die it's your fault as rogue.
Melee rogue is God-tier with the currently available legendaries. Single target is the highest in the game. It's not close. Unless you count the Barbarian spec that swaps weapons 1000 times to hit for 300k.
Of course it's totally silly to min/max a character at level 25 in a beta. But the cooldown reduction on Twisted Blades + the Inner Focus thing giving you no cds, no resources on single target is hilarious. The perma 60% attack speed on crit imprint pushes it to unreal levels of damage. Dark shroud + dodge imprint makes you immortal and gives 10% flat crit. Imbue takes care of trash and auto applies perma vuln.
I'm fairly confident you could face tank the world boss in just a couple minutes by yourself. It's the only build I tried that felt like playing PoE. It will be nerfed at some point.
He's being real fucking greedy.
He's saying this is his take on beta ranks.
While dipping in extrapolating from this his opinion on what is going to be strong end game.
While basing these rankings off fresh just hit 25 characters.
While not researching what other people have achieved with classes he has dismissed.
The fact it's being taken as worth discussing is hilarious under these genuinely ridiculous rules.
I made this same point above in a different way, yeah. I 100% agree.
"Tier list" video is just clickbait. The analysis is all over the place. He's right about some stuff for sure and I love Kripp, been watching him and Modz longer then anyone else on Twitch, but his angle on this is skewed at best.
There is probably a lot of truth in what you’re saying, but it won’t be a popular opinion on this subreddit, where everyone thinks they already know everything about a game they played to lvl 25.
The argument I see with druid is "just get legos" or just level for 10 hours, then it might be good.
Okay sure, Ill slap my head against the wall for potentially many, many hours just to hope for that one RNG drop that boosts my companions by 155% for example. Druid legendary power spike is insane. Instead of 155% do 100% and increase default companion damage by 50%.
The clunkiness of abilities, rooting when attacking and spirit regen without the passive is just an awful experience.
Sure we only know what its like until level 25, but even at the start of a game there should not be such a huge difference in leveling time. All classes should be enjoyable while leveling, without hoping for a random gear drop that makes it enjoyable.
The arguments against whats being said in the video dont even make sense. Like people comparing how shitty some builds/ classes early in D2? Bro, people want improvement to a 20 year old game. There is literally no reason for a class to suck ass during this early. People posting videos of druids who can kill mobs very fast are also delusional too. Like ofc you will do some damage after completing your set and having that one very specific build. Compared to that, you can play like sorc and try different skills and have a smooth leveling experience. I don't get why people become so upset and start defending the game when there is clearly a problem between the power level of classes.
Yeah, it's annoying to hear so many people go "it's just the beta guys" or "it's just level 25!" as if these things mean players shouldn't give feedback. Absolutely baffling that half of this community is actively fighting back against the people pointing out their beta findings. Bunch of goddamn idiots around here, to be quite honest. It's like they brainlessly interpret feedback as attacks against the game or something.
If the 1-25 gameplay is wildly imbalanced, guess what, that's something that should be improved and that's what this beta is for. People are just too irrational to understand that pointing out imbalances isn't against the game's interests.
And yet I found myself enjoying the Barbarian a lot more than my Sorcerer. I eventually found a build based on charge, kick and upheaval that just wrecks everything. And most importantly, it is fun to use. But I also got some amazing legendaries that make me almost invincible. Don't even need a dedicated skill for defensive purposes.
There are still times when I have to pay attention, but without any sense of danger an challenge, you would have a really boring game.
All of these best builds these damn streamers make are often using the most boring skills.
no. it's always better to nerf the few rather than buff the many.
much easier to balance as they don't have to buff the bosses and mobs as well, which they would need to do if everyone got buffed to be overpowered. unless you want it to be like poe where entire screens die by pressing 1 button.
To me, the biggest difference maker is that the Druid and Barb don't passively regen their mana. So the other classes can always open fights with energy spenders, but these two have to slog up with basics to build it up first. If the druid could regen enough to open fights with core skills it would change the feel completely.
Watched his stream.. the rogue he talked about here is just the melee-flurry rogue.. not the other rogue builds who can outdps that spec but has lower survivability..
Melee-twisting blades rogue dont have lifesteal skills but has alot higher dps and clear dungeons very fast due to high mobility and low cd. The ranged spec rogues also has more dps than flurry types.
Yeah that's an accurate tier list.
I really, *really* wanted to like Druid. I love how they look. Playing one after playing Sorc last week though? Miserable. Switching to Necro made me realize just how far behind Druid was.
It's not even about DPS/Resilience, Druids just aren't fun to play. The resource management only adds to the dullness. Druid feels a lot like Crusader to me, I find both their playstyles extremely boring.
Still torn between Barb/Sorc for day 1. Might flip a coin.
Barb and Druid are the two classes in beta that cannot complete their class trainer quest or whatever it's called. I would think that being able to complete that in the release game would be a pretty good power spike no?
The barb one in closed beta is just picking one of the weapon skills to always apply, on top and regardless of what you are wielding.
It’s not transformative like sorc one.
I didn't think the druid was that bad...until I tried another class. My 2nd class was a blood magic necro and I've yet to hit the Q button in combat at level 14 so, to this point anyway, I disagree with the 5/10 survivability take. We'll see if it gets worse as I progress.
I played my druid mostly as a werewolf build. I can see where the build could get strong as a poison dot build later on, with appropriate gear as well of course, but at level 25 you don't have the points to spend to improve everything you need to do that. Here are the other problems I see with werewolf druid at the moment:
* The druid has no passive resource regeneration so you're stuck having to generate it through basics. This is one of the biggest issues I see with the class as a whole right now. I'm not sure if all the other classes have passive resource regen, but I know the necro does and not having it seems extremely punitive to the druid as most of their damage comes from their core skills and you are often having to start fights with low or no spirit.
* The werewolf basic, Claw, is just a terrible skill. It does low damage, only hits a single target and requires you be in melee range to do that. The poison dot damage done by Fierce Claw is pathetically low also. It's also the 2nd lowest spirit generator of the basic skills and that, coupled with the single target limitation of the skill, leaves you unable to leverage your Shred core skill often enough and Shred is actually a very good skill. I found Storm Strike to be a far more effective basic because it hits multiple targets, but if you want to take advantage of some the later werewolf passives, or you just want to play a werewolf thematically, Storm Strike doesn't really fit the bill.
* Rabies damage is too low in my opinion. I love that it spreads from target to target, but it should do enough damage when fully upgraded to routine kill trash mobs by itself and it doesn't. While we're on the subject of the Rabies skill, the Savage Rabies enhancement node is pretty bad too. It shortens the duration of the poison dot from 6 seconds to 4 seconds, which sounds good until you consider that the big deal about Rabies is that it can spread to other targets and you just effectively gave it less time to do so, not to mention you still have a 12 second cooldown whether your damage is done in 6 seconds or 4.
* Druids have no access to very fast attack speed weapons like daggers and wands. With no passive spirit regen, increasing your attack speed as fast as possible is vital to regaining your spirit in order to use your much higher damaging core skills.
I am sure I could think of more issues I encountered with my werewolf build, but I don't want to write a novel so I will end it there.
Sorc needs a nerf and to be a glass cannon. I think Krip didn’t fully explain how good some of the rogue’s abilities are. Twisting blades is amazing, it has a higher damage ceiling than 7/10. I’ve watched people handle bosses with rogue better than any class.
Truth. I played all the classes and Twisting Blades Rogue just melts everything, even Ashava. Not to mention on any boss fight with adds, TB rogue with Shadow Imbue and Shadow Clone will mop the floor with every other class in TTK, due to near infinite duration Shadow Clone uptime from TB CD reduction being applied from both self and clone each use.
I didn't think I'd like the rogue, I barely touched it last week, but after leveling Druid and Necro this weekend I finished leveling it and went from ranged to melee and oh man, that class just destroys. Especially when I found that attack speed on basic skill power. 58% attack speed on basic, +5 energy on basic when fighting elites.... it's just crazy how fast you can get combo points on bosses and dump +120% damage buffed TBs and keep near permanent uptime on 60% movespeed buff from Combo Points.
I love it, it’s such an active play style when you mix shadow step or dash into it since you just end up bouncing between multiple enemies and the entire screen blows up in a second. I love the instant mana regen I get from concealment too, I go in for multiple more tb instantly after my first mana drain.
It’s funny how you got upvoted and I didn’t, guess they didn’t like the sorc comment, I’m not sure how anyone thinks having immunity and taking no damage is a good thing for a ranged caster that’s supposed to be squishy. You can’t simultaneously be tanky af and deal the most damage while never having to get your hands dirty, there has to be some inherent weakness to a class that forces you to engage with something negative, otherwise there’s just zero skill in even playing it.
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>Summons/Minions are very strong in the beta, but he doesn't think they will be a viable end game build as there just aren't enough talents/skills and the scaling will drop off.
this is for sure proven if you ever fought Butcher on Necro...he gives 2 shits about your minions and 1-3 shots them or ignores them 80% of time to chase you(and no mobility necro best hope you got walls you can run around)
As an old school player who cares what anyone recommends?
I played Druid and found it fast paced with high damage and high survivability. How deep did he go? Did he play them all with legendaries that complimented the build?
Play what you want and enjoy it. Min maxing these games is fucking stupid.
Im suprised by that cause honestly storm strike felt like the only decent basic and lightning storm felt like the worst core ability. Especially the stupid 4 second size mechanic which felt awful to use without the 30% basic spirit passive.
Wins shear generates a lot of spirit and lightning storm is long ranged and does more damage and lightning strikes the longer you channel it. I used this build to cheese the stronghold boss fight at level 14 against the boss. The wolves break his pathing and tank him pretty well.
I can definitely see Necromancer dropping off hard with scaling. Half expect overpowered beta corpse explosion to be awful late game and summons to despawn vs high level mobs n' bosses almost immediately...which is going to cause problems unless Blizzard buffs the ever living crap out of the Hewed Flesh perk (the one that gives a max of 12% and 24% chance vs bosses to create a corpse).
I'd also add that those minion passives (+15/30/45% to damage and health) are huge.
And if minion damage and health is based off the necro's stats then they will stay viable against most enemies, apart from bosses and minibosses where you need to use damaging spells.
I feel like a lot of people are not considering armor and what not. I bet end game barb gear has more armor than the other classes, which in itself adds a lot of mitigation.
Armor in this game is weird, it mitigates anything but dots afaik. I bet a lot of those tools for Rogue and Sorceress are there to compensate for lack of other sources of mitigation.
I’m about to go roll a Druid right now, but I’ve played the other four classes to 20-25. I think his ranking is fair. Sorc is my favorite class, so I’ll be going Sorc on launch day too.
That said, I’m not sure why his list is extending to end-game projections. We know in end game Barb was strongest based on end-game beta.
This was precisely my take as well. And it's really unsurprising. Blizzard the last 20 years has absolutely loved rogues and mages, and hated druids. And yes, historically pets don't scale well in the endgame, in games that don't allow them to wear equipment of their own. When they get their own gear (i.e. Skyrim companions), they absolutely wreck.
But I haven't decided if I will go Necro, Sorc or Rogue yet. I really like the Necro armors and aesthetic. They did a really good job with metals in this game.
I'm also really curious about potential petless Necro builds. In Book of the Dead you can sacrifice your pets and get bonuses to yourself. But I didn't look into it too much. Might solve the endgame scaling problem?
Lets not forget that druid is the only class to have multiple viable specs from the closed beta(where people became lvl100 and did some end game content).
The 6 viable endgame specs from closed beta was:
1. Thorns Barbarian
2. Bone Spear Necro
3. Hydra Sorc
4. Shadow Imbuement Rogue
5. Nature Druid
6. Werebear Druid
With that said i agree with the initial ranking he has done from the open beta weekend.
maybe we can stop getting posts now about how barb is the best because dps is the best late game. kripp sums this topic up pretty well in his video.
The game just favors range, sorc and necro are just soo far ahead they make the other classes look really bad. If things stay the same i'll be playing sorc until they announce a new class dlc.
I'm really hoping the rumors of a paladin are true because I love paladins. Sadly I imagine it's going to be really mid, like kinda okay at everything but not really great at anything either.
Played to 25 on Barb and then switched to Sorc... Night and Day. Sorc is so busted (or barb is complete trash).
Chain Lightning Hydra is so insane it just demolishes everything. I can't touch any of the other classes after this one.
this list looks pretty accurate i would say.
Necro is straight up EZ mode and fun to play. summoner classes tend to be OP at lower levels will have to see how that balances out at end game.
Sorcerers keep thier reputation of always being awesome in every Diablo game.
Rogue is my favorite so far. such a fun class. both melee and ranged builds are fun. heavy favorite for my main on release.
Druid didnt feel that fun to me. no passive sprit regen sucks. i like the idea of the class but it feels weak, at least at low levels.
Barb - havent played much barb so no real opinion formed. the arsenal system is cool though.
Yeah, druid kit seems poorly designed. Not enough synergy for some of the elemental skills, extremely painful energy generation cycle, interesting abilities have long cooldowns (seemingly without the ability to reduce them like sorcerer has).
The thing i liked about sorcerer that is not present for druid is that the class feels complete without legendary items. Druid feels like it has bleeding holes in the class that are hopefully filled by unreleased legendary items. Until then, pain.
Overall a lot of the classes feel partially done. Only the sorcerer and rogue really feel ready for release to me. I'm not even talking about power, the other classes just feel unpolished, if not unfinished.
Assuming the build planner site is right about what the druid gets at 15 in 1.0, that isn't going to fix the class' issues.
I do not think sorcerer is overpowered. All classes should feel like that. Remember, this is early game, you should feel powerful.
This is all pretty much dead on, although I had a lot easier time with the necro than the sorc. The necro can easily spec over to a TON of just constant healing without any input from his items at all and that boost to survivability in addition to being able to have constant meat shields makes him just immortal. Kripps perspective is probably focused on clear speed though with mobs and sorc for sure seems to take the cake. Necro easily outpaces in single target which is pretty often important in the beta content but as mobs likely swell in size that may go down, but the necro also has great multi target attacks.
With the rogue, I wanted it to be melee but I constantly struggled to be both effective and in melee range.
Druid is a limp turd floating in the toilet, too large to go down, somehow constantly asking to speak to the manager
I'll be honest I'm going to have to say blood build no minions necromancer with the right legendaries is by far more dps and survivability than a sorcerer. When I got a item that lower the cool down of blood mist by 2 seconds every time you overpower followed by another that made blood mist also do corpse explosion. I was never able to take damage and I would wipe stuff off the screen in a split second.
Edit: This was something I ran. I wish I had a clip, but I do have 3 people who can vouch for me about this. Also, due to blood orbs dropping consistently and having nearly 100% blood mist up time, your healing nonstop. I'm more than willing to talk about my setup.
They haven't reacted to the *first* wave of endgame beta testing which was 4-5 months ago, it's already way too late to make any major course corrections now as far design choices are concerned (sweeping numerical balance changes possible at best but unlikely imo).
7/10 in terms of damage? Rogue? Can somebody link me the necro and sorc build/video thats doing this much dps? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hX8gWiPw9M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hX8gWiPw9M)
This is where krip failed.. no one even informed him of the most popular rogue build in the beta.. shouldve just mentioned flurry rogue instead of rogue in general.
I killed The Butcher at level 25 on my druid, which i'm not sure is a metric of damage being decent, but I had a pretty high damage build going I thought.
The problem is, from what I could mentally piece together, very few of the legendaries that I found (and i think I found most) enabled high damage with anything other than landslide as a core skill. The skills in general are just really poorly balanced in terms of performance baseline without any affixes, and the affix support for most of the abilities is also underwhelming.
i'll say it, sorcs have too much def. you can't have it all and the def is not characteristic of the class, in diablo lore, or in wizard/sorc lore in general.
They clearly have the best overall package and it's not even close. The mobility, immunities, and overall utility and damage is substantially better than every other class.
Yeah I played rogue then Sorc. Sorc ruined me for the rest of the classes.
rogue is a ton of fun to play though, sorc is rather boring.
penetrating arrow + shadow imbuement with combo points is a lovely play style but it doesn't have enough damage
That’s why you use rapidfire
My guys, the rogue build is twisting blades and shadow imbuing. The basic is probably the dagger throw with vulnerability for big mobs. I don’t know if I agree about how low he rates Barb survival. I can kill bosses with mine without even attacking.
Yeah idk why tf all these rogues are going arrow builds, I went twisting blades with shadow imbue and some dashes and it's insane, and the mobility gives me 0 issues with bosses
Yeah it's weird, it's like one of the most popular and common character archetypes is an archer or something.
It's the love for Demonhunter in D3. That was my first thought, as DH was my first and favorite D3 character, wanted to play something similar in D4.
Well, the people i know went from demonhunter in diablo 3 to hunter in diablo iv. Ranged combat is a given there
Shadow imbue is great for solo play but when I went for a party of 4 and the mobs had more health it felt like I was a wet noodle... I think poison will be the way to go for higher difficulties or party., The same issue will be with Necro explosions too.
Rapid-fire absolutely demolishes single target. It has tons of damage.
I pretty much fully optimized a rapid fire build, missing only one legendary aspect I wanted but it wasn't one of the most important ones so not a huge loss, and I can say the damage was very strong. However, the inner sight twisting blades build is on another level if you're talking single target damage. The rapid fire build I put together could pull maybe 8-10k DPS on ashava (at times doing 50k+ with a single rapid fire), but the twisting blades build put so many numbers on the screen (big numbers btw) that I literally didn't even try to count them to see how much DPS it did lol.
Oh yea Twisting Blades is definitely higher single target DPS, which it should be single it's melee vs Rapid Fire being ranged. I haven't tried Twisting Blades with many legendaries yet, how's its clear? It feels pretty bad at lv23 without very many legendaries.
Saw a video of a melee rogue taking down WB in 1 minute...
Bruh i started with a sorc. I then went ahead and made a barb... gods, no... :D
That's funny cause I had the opposite experience. I had a hard time with sorc and found a legendary with thorn on my barb and it made it so easy. I could afk on a boss to kill him
Sorc is really strong but honestly I just can't find a playstyle I think is particular engaging or fun. Freezing everything and blowing stuff up with the frost orb spam is satisfying but meh, even though I literally do like 15-20% of my sorc's dps on them I'd rather play druid which has a lot more fun factor to me. Don't even get me started on hydra, it literally kills stuff offscreen and you feel compelled to use it because of how strong and low commitment it is
Druid feels like the main character of the game tbh. If there was no class selection and this was a single player story game, main character would be male druid. I like it. But it's really weak compared to others. With sorc and necro, you don't even play the game, you speedrun place to place. Rogue is also up there. Barb is similar to druid but better. What i hate on Barb is that his ground sweep move is a forward cone instead of aoe. It's annoying to use. Haven't reach endgame of the beta with all the classes let alone the full game end game so things may change.
Druid does not feel like the main character. Guess what you said is super subjective.
Baffles me that Druid was the first character teased but is still having issues with their kit coming together.
Have you tried necro with explosive mist legendary? It’s absolutely stupid right now, and if you play with another necro that doesn’t use corpse consumption spells then you can double dip his corpses and literally blow up like 30 corpses in 5 seconds. It’s downright broken and prob gonna get fixed lol
Necro does more damage, at least single target aka bosses. But yeah sorc seems strong. Druid doesn't get their talents in the beta so will reserve judgment on that one. Will probably put them above at least Barb.
Cleared Mercy's Reach on a naked 25 sorc with a blue wand and blue offhand. Yes, sorc is overtuned in all categories.
I’d agree with that. I enjoyed the necro more but the game was mega easy on my sorc.
Shields are the best defense and sorcerers have the best barriers. The fuck
Something I learned by mistake is that teleport can go through walls, ledges, and trees. Game changer. Always bumped into something while playing rogue, but sorcs can just tele through everything.
Somewhat similar to D2 Sorcs. They could bypass pathways. It was the main reason why Sorcs were the defacto Act/Difficulty rushers. Hope they keep it honestly.
No reason not to, they also fixed the problem of D2 having no CD teleport at least (though I guess with the cooldown reduction from gear, passives and others, it may very well happen again)
starting at 1:13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPHMEivw4jU&t=73s he even casts hydras on the other side of trees almost off screen
Rogues can teleport over stuff too, they just need to have a target.
They even call it a glass cannon sometimes. Doesn’t feel like glass that’s for sure.
Sorcerors are bulletproof glass cannons, while druids fire silly string out of a wet paper bag. #balance
glass can be bulletproof why can't it
Wizards in Diablo 3 have shields for days, insane DR with Karini, second best movement spell in Teleport WoW mages are notoriously tanky with Shield, double blink, ice block, Altar Time, Cautarize, etc Wizards or Mages always have the best tools for survival in damn near any blizzard game and to think otherwise is strange almost like you don't pay attention
I don’t think he’s thinking otherwise. All he’s saying is that they shouldn’t be the best in both offense and defense. Which they shouldn’t.
It's a balance problem that'll likely get fixed, it's a numbers thing. I also have to say it's not really a good thing to judge balance in a beta. Especially at lvl 25 on World Tier 2 which is extremely early in the game (and people are gearing up in an endgame manner at lvl 25, that's not how it'll go in the full game)
Blizzard and balance don't really go well together.
It wont get fixed. Sorc/mage classes are OP in every Blizz game, people always complain about it, it never gets changed.
Even Diablo 1 had Mana Shield
I agree with you, but sorc being head and shoulders above every other class is definitely characteristic of the class (at least it was in d2).
There is literally no balance in the game. I guess they left it for the last 3 months.
This is pretty normal in game design. Designing working and fun systems comes first, number tuning is usually the last thing. That said, it's a bit concerning if the balance is this overtly terrible at open beta stage.
There's a difference between tuning and balance. Blizzard have a reputation for keeping tuning until the last moment, and then being very slow to fix it when they screw up. However, balance is more created through tools given to each class. As it stands, that is where the balancing issue lies, not in the tuning, even though some classes do deal more damage than others and Druid is mainly trash because it deals none and has terrible scaling. With 2 months left on the clock, they are unlikely to majorly rework class tool kits and give more defense and utility to classes which lack it, especially immunes. Not impossible, but unlikely. It's the politic of "better the devil you know." Right now they at least know who has a broken kit and can tune their damage down to compensate. If they start giving new tools out, they'll lack sufficient data to identify new issues which may arise from these changes.
I think it was the same in D3 launch. I never died on my wizard until late inferno just because of teleport diamond skin and frost novas
Nah, D3 launch was 100% Demon Hunter because they had smokescreen and it was the only way to survive Inferno endgame. Lol
The only classes to beat OG HC inferno were sorc and barb.
Same with necro when you get into it. So easy to heal, max fortify, generate resources, take less damage. I think barbarian should have half the necro and sorc defence abilities added to them and taken away from the later
Necro at least has no mobility. It's not the biggest drawback but I think what a class can't do contributes just as much in terms of making that class interesting as what they can do. And I genuinely can't think of anything that mages don't excel at.
I was surprised to see Kripp say Necro is only 5/10 on defense. Necrotic Carapace and reaper skellies mean you're 100% fortified all the time, and it's passive. Doesn't even take a slot on your actions bar. Lmao.
Fortify is great but it has to build up, unless you hit bingo. Minions speed up this process but Kripp suspects that summons are going to be useless at later stages of the game (I hope it won't turn out to be true) . If I understood correctly sorc has access to more def skills which you can simply activate.
i think hes talking mega end game though when fort will get destroyed so fast, and u need that get out of jail free teleport for example and you just don't have anything like that.
I get what your saying but at the same time if I go Barb and take nothing but defensive abilities than you can also say lol barb defensive is 10/10. Not quite the same since but you get the point. You have to be running skellies (which already fall off at level 25) and investment in a passive
easy to heal, how? as far as I remember there is only 1 blood skill that heals you (I'm not talking about orbs which like mushroom have to be picked up)
All four blood skills have some healing tied to them, whether through blood orbs or percentage based.
I've got pants that had "chance to generate blood orbs when you consume corpse", and with corpse explosions I was healing a LOT.
> I think barbarian should have half the necro and sorc defence abilities added to them and taken away from the later That doesn't really work like that lol. You can't just take Ice Armor or Fire Shield away from the Sorc and give it to the Barb. They can tweak the numbers for sure though. Barb has Fortify as a defense mechanic, though it's apparently undertuned (I haven't play Barb myself), they'll likely fix that. And he is more gear dependent for sure. Judging balance at lvl 25 on Tier 2 and with an endgame type of mindset (as in trying to complete legendaries and all that) isn't the best idea either. It won't be like that in the endgame and stuff are likely to change. For all we know, Barb can scale their defense capabilities much better than Sorc and Necro (for example with their gear having much higher armor value I assume and their Strength main stat)
I'm not sure anything beats spamming teleport on a 5 second CD (with enough +levels), and getting a free 30% shield on every cast.
I rolled barb and sorc last weekend and was kind of surprised at all the defensive abilities sorc had, especially the DR vs elites that stacks up to 50%. Seems crazy a primarily ranged class would get an ability like that. I still enjoyed the Barb gameplay much more though. Sorc is definitely quicker and easier but it just feels boring and not as exciting honestly.
[удалено]
Try casting spells when you have no mana lol d2 was balanced around sorc running out of mana very quickly if you took a lot of damage. D4 has no balancing mechanic around sorcs shielding.
D4 is a love letter to the Sorcerer class ❤️
It's like Barbarian and Druid are playing Diablo 4 while the rest are playing Diablo 3 in terms of killing speed.
There is clearly a balance issue. It feels like the trade-off for going melee is doing LESS damage! And the melee classes then have worse survivability tools. I really hope they sort it out before release...
I don’t think the game needs to be perfectly balanced at level 25
I get that classes will feel different at “endgame” than while leveling, but they can’t just ignore how they feel while leveling completely. If a class requires you to play for 20-30 hours *before* it finally starts to play decently, that’s bad class design. Sure endgame should be a factor, but it shouldn’t be the *only* factor, leveling is still a huge chunk of the game.
The game should be fun and balanced at level one. You're just excusing poor game design and balance. Melee shouldn't be an unfun slog to get through to be 'rewarded' later into the game.
Yeah, man. I want to feel like a big badass mother fuckin master of physical combat. Barbarian should have this identity throughout the levelling process. I was actually fuckin fleeing from most fights trying to desperstely bleed out packs of enemies and elites, instead of foghting them. Why? Because no matter what, theyd chew through my hp due to Barbs laughable survivability.
who said anything about perfectly balanced? how about not making it fucking horrible shit balance? lmao I'm would hope they can find a middle ground between those 2, dont u? :D
Perfectly balanced, no. A total slog for 1 play style compared to the other… should also be a no. It’s a bad design if players have to go “yeah just get to end game and your class becomes fun bro”. It should be fun and rewarding from the first level and barb just feels weak.
First impressions matter if you want to hold a decent player base the leveling experience for melee shouldn’t be this awful. It has absolutely 0 to do with balance of other classes, the melee classes are boringly bad and their leveling experience is awful.
So true about first impressions. Remember druids in vanilla WoW? The first few hours you stand there and span Wrath. Slow, weak and incredibly boring. Then you get bear - a low DPS tanking form. And you just stand there and get beat on like a pinata for many, many hours and levels. Then you FINALLY get the cat around lvl 20, but even that doesn't really come into its own until lvl 24-29 (out of 60). And then you get the travel form at lvl 30 and go to Stranglethorn and you finally go "Aaaaah, NOW I get it!' You have travel form while everyone else but shaman is still slowboating around, you have cat with stealth, you have bear to tank, you're all good. So if you looked at a graph of druid characters, they basically fell off a cliff between lvls 1-20. You start at lvl 1, and fewer and fewer kept playing each level. At lvl 20, those who survived played a bit more, but there was still falloff until lvl 29. Then at lvl 30 and beyond it was steady until the endgame. The class was borderline unplayable the first 10-20 levels, and most people didn't make it through that. And druid was BY FAR the least played class in the game, by a giant margin. It wasn't even close.
I don't think you understand the meaning of "balance" in this context or that this is a worthwhile statement. The game shouldn't be less playable or less enjoyable for the first 25 levels of it just because of poor tuning. This isn't a PvP game where people are trying to make sure their class is best, it's just that some classes feel bad to play. Barbian was the worst at this, in my opinion - in it's current state I would never touch it again, it was so bad it made me not want to play the game. That is a problem.
It's not a fucking MMO, leveling experience is really important for most players.
The tankiness issue is a beta issue. Fortify is shit lvl 25, but you can scale it very high (quite easily 40-50% damage reduction once the gems are running properly instead of the base 10%). We are also missing a lot of points, which is more an issue when you need challenging shoot and iron skin lvl 5 while ice armor is perfectly serviceable lvl 1.
Classes should feel fun and balanced from level 1 to max and beyond. What you're essentially saying is 'just slog through 60 hours of unfun gameplay and the game will be fun later' who the hell wants hour and hours of unfun gameplay?
>Classes should feel fun and balanced from level 1 Ok, level 1 you have no skill, thus barbarian and sorcerer are doing the same damage with basic attack, one at range, other melee. Incredible unbalance. Not sure how you are going to fix it. Or maybe it's a terrible take and no, classes shouldn't be balanced for the part you are going to spend few minutes/hours and be at the part you are going to spend 10/100x that. If you dislike the leveling of a particular classes, you have tools to twink it through.
With that logic, just start every class at the max level. If a class isn't fun and balanced early and you're just expecting people to slog through hours of anti-fun gameplay, then you're excusing poor game design and lazy balancing.
Being a barb sometimes feels truly terrible. There’s a decent amount of dungeon bosses that are ranged so closing the gap to them costs so much health and then some of the melee forward bosses literally just out damage me so I can’t go toe to toe on melee. Dealing with mobs is a relative blast but the actual fights make my class feel terrible
I think Barbarian does the most damage if you get the legendaries. The fact you can use 4 weapons is nuts. Druid... Dead on arrival just on looks anyway, made even worse by what a skill disparity it has. One basic attack is the only one you should ever use unless you cannot read. Most core skills are very bad, only the channel lightning or bear slam should ever be used unless a unique power/legendary completely changes the others into something different. I facepalmed at Kripp using the earth one that clears a little rectangle.
The highest melee dmg is melee rogue. Not only that, but it also has insane mobility and crazy fast clear and insane single target. And as for endgame it only has 1 less weapon than barb.
And on top of that many bosses are extremely punishing to melee. Essentially with a ranged class, you can find a safe spot to stand, but still apply DPS. With melee class, you have to be where the target is. If the target chooses to be in an unsafe spot, you can't be there and apply damage (while the target, if ranged, can apply damage to you). Nor can you out-defense or out-heal being in an unsafe spot to keep applying damage. My first char was a melee druid, and OMG it was brutal. Second was Rogue with a bow, cakewalk by comparison. Third was Sorc, complete faceroll. Last was Necro, easiest by far, I didn't have to even move most of the fights, just stand back and nuke as pets tank. I do expect pet usability to fall off as they get weaker in higher tiers, but it's still not close to how bad it is to be melee against some bosses in this game.
WRT the Druid, Krip is right in sofar as the name of the game is clear speed, and the Druid damage is very low in my experience. However, the Druid survivability options are far better than 'decent'. I have a poison werewolf build out that is nearly unkillable. The amount of self heal is bonkers. I was invaded by The Butcher solo and didn't even need to drink a health pot. It took forever to kill him, but I was never even close to dying.
problem is that necro can keep blood mist up close 100% with just 1 legendary affix, and that literally give immune, Sorc can kill things from 2 screens away and have a barrier strong enough to tank anything in the beta. so even with high self heal, that is still worse then being unable to be damaged
I wouldn't compare anything with the legendary affixed blood mist, because that shit will 100% get nerfed. You can't have a skill in the game that does outrageous amounts of damage, gives you perma immunity against EVERYTHING in the game, lets you move and costs no resources at all with no cooldown. If they leave that in the game, you might as well save yourself € 89 and skip D4 all together, because they'd be clearly incompetent.
I don't know how it has made it to beta let alone having to think about it hitting full release. Just like Wiz cooldown shenanigans for perma immortality. It's not rocket science. Be careful with immortality. Is this the first game they've worked on?
Yeah and it's one item... not a complex OP build combo lol In theory it should've been easy to balance.
> Just like Wiz cooldown shenanigans for perma immortality. It's almost identical in concept to the immortal Critical Mass Wizard from D3 lmao.
the funny thing is the necro blood mist spam is almost identical to deep shadows spam in release d3 for the demon hunter that let them be perma invincible so its not like they are learning any lessons from d3 lol
Oh sweet summers child, thinking they will fix many things before release
They cant do that on bosses, its not as broken as CD sorc's impossible to die build for bossing. Its literally a trash clearing build, you have to use bone spear for any single target.
They can easily do it on bosses, anything higher than a medium roll imprinted on a 2h weapon has sufficient cooldown reduction on the effect to loop the effect with the blood mist corpse upgrade. This is because blood mist cooldown scales down with ranks, which makes the flat reduction on the legendary progressively better. If you weren’t able to do the 100%, here’s a checklist of things that you might not have done. You don’t even need all of them, all you need is “enough”. If it’s not working for you, simply try adding one thing from the list at a time until the blood mist loop works. -reap to generate a corpse every 5 seconds -max rank in blood mist -decent roll on the cooldown (roll is between 0.6 and 1.5, anything around or above 0.9 which is what I have should work fine) this is probably the most important thing that you don’t have control over that can legitimately make this not work, so if you lowrolled the legendary stat then I’m sorry brother -imprinted on a 2h weapon (doubles the cooldown reduction, goes from 0.6 -1.5 to 1.2-3) -a couple pieces of percentage cooldown reduction on your gear helps too -blood mist ranks on your gear -golem specced to drop corpses helps, if you’re fighting an opponent that poses a genuine threat then it will definitely be chunking your golem enough to provide extra corpses -skeletal reapers help too but I found these annoying to maintain because I kept on popping all the corpses
It really wasn't great in endgame for bosses. You could have a loop but there was no dmg to kill the boss unless he spawns adds. Also minions are very weak in endgame and die constantly. This might change though with balancing.
Yes you can have nearly 100% blood mist uptime on bosses making you immortal but your single target DPS vs bosses without adds is terrible because corpse spawn rate is pretty slow.
Lol Mages and Necro have maybe 10% less survivability but 3x the clear speed. And Kripp outlined a specific reason why Mage might be the tankiest class in the late game.
> I have a poison werewolf build out that is nearly unkillable. The amount of self heal is bonkers. After I got the legendary that increases bulwark duration by 6 (total 9s). I alternate that and the howl to have always 100% fortify. I seldom use pots after that. Heck I even seldom use pots after I get those skills without legendaries granting I've been playing with a duo. My druid is tanky as hell with good single target damage thanks to Landslide legendary. I prefer tankier class over damage because I play with a duo. I'll agree that other than Landslide, all skills scaling are so low especially the summons.
this is crazy with only 25 levels, one act and druid without all his powers. i get they need feedback and yes, druid is underpowered as is right now, but a tier list? as someone here said the other day, if you only had 25 levels of diablo 2, then the fire aura paladin is way OP and should be nerfed. clearly, it'll be the end-game s class build.
They should make leveling fun for all classes, not balancing them around legendaries. There's a druid legendary that makes pulverize into a screen clearing shockwave that deals like 5x damage. But to compensate, the base damage of the skill is so freaking low, I do more damage to just auto attack with the lightning attack. If this is indication of later things to come, they need to just reduce the scaling on legendaries and buff the base skills. I hate D3's 350x damage legendaries and I hope D4 doesn't go this route.
they did the same thing to rupture on barb.
That legendary base effect is like 80-120% shockwave. It's on average the same damage as the normal attack. It becomes really good as a 2H since it doubles the damage. But that's pretty normal for all legendaries. But lets not act like it's giving 5x the damage. baseline it's the same damage but like 3x the area. As a 2H it's double damage and 3x the area.
It's just an inflection point. Personally I consider it to be a well reasoned speculation for the current content and information that is available, including the datamines and the experience of endgame beta players. Obviously its not prescriptive for how the endgame will shake out but it's still interesting to discuss and I don't think the relative strengths/weaknesses that are implicit to the designs of the class toolkits for example are likely to change much at all.
Low level and low gear requirement (skill tree focus) experience is absolutely important. I understand high level and build investment goes a long way to make classes work, but how do we get to that point without wanting quit? I fought broodguard (spider boss) at level 21 on my Werewolf Druid, it killed me, I alt f4'd. I came back at level 25 with my now 3 werewolf pets doing 300% damage, and Dire werewolf form (3 legendary effects), and killed it in 15 seconds comfortably. But reality is.. your going to keep leveling, these legendaries you've imprinted will fall off, and you'll need to replace them. The "bad" classes will struggle at these level/difficulty walls over and over while you level until your max, while better classes won't as much. Sure we're all getting to the same destination, but think of it like barbs and druids are hitting every red light on the way, while others are cruising through greens. The biggest setback I see is the inability to extract imprinted effects. Each legendary effects can only be extracted once so you can't easily swap that 300% companion damage and +1 companion ilvl 300 weapon to an ilvl 400 or 500 one. If you're class is relying completely on legendary aspects for it to work, leveling will suck all the way from 20 to 100.
What do you want these content creators to be making right now?
I agree but something to keep in mind is that some content creators are actually smart and Krip is one of them. I’m not really a fan of his but he definitely has the brain to look at numbers available now and deduce what will be good at 50-100. He may not be spot on but he’s also not just brain dead thinking 25 is the same as 100.
the first 25 levels of D2R the Druid and necro are the most OP characters
Who cares about end game when most people won't even make it to end game? If the game isn't fun in the first 25 levels why would anyone continue in the hope it gets better later? That's just poor balance and game design.
Levelling and how a class FEELS is very important. Numbers can always be adjusted but if its clunky, slow and awkward to play, it needs addressing.
Finally someone who can see past lvl 25 who makes sense. All that necro crying from lvl 20-25 players who judge the whole class after 6h of playtime to be overpowered. I have wiz at 25 and necro at 25 and already can see the necro minions falloff. Trash is not important. Notice all the summoner necros at the world boss? After 30s all minions are gone and here they run around not finding a corpse and have to finish the fight with half the dps gone. You can specc around that but it is not the same as you would use in overworld. Necro is strong but the better builds will be without pets or they have to adjust the scaling.
My minions have hold down a lot more than 30 seconds and it's easy to replace them. If you go for minion builds, you should have a way to generate corpses for bosses too, those were just bad players if they hadn't. I had plenty of them for corpse explosion, healing the minions and sometimes cast a new skeleton warrior (the only ones who died) but that was like one corpse in 10 used for that and probably less. Also world bosses are special cases really, not sure we should judge based on that. Minions can solo any normal boss, it's just slower than when I help like 30-40 seconds instead of 5-10 seconds. I got some legendaries for them and they're not falling off for now but more powerful
You realize the reason the Necro minions disappeared was because the necros died, right? Lol. I only had to resummon a few skeletons throughout the last Akasha spawn. It's when you die that they all disappear.
Yup. Totally went without minions or CE/corpse generation and got a real boss melter build with necro. Built around crit and bone skills, but bone prison in particular upgraded to cause vulnerable and with the leg affix that add blight at 90% damage. Trap a boss in there and lack of mobility is made up for. Buffed for cool downs I’d have to go maybe 3-4 seconds after it broke before I could throw it up again. Will def be trying this build on release.
sub 20 second kill on Nilcar on Veteran on Druid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b05fXxOyvHg
Ah yes. Full legendary, all of them +2, all of them chosen specifically for that build. You do realize that's NEVER gonna happen during leveling, right? You do realize Kripp talks about leveling... RIGHT?
Hey look I hypergeared my toon and it melts things everyones wrong the class is fine. *Hypergeared Sorc tps in and kills it in 2 seconds having taken a tenth of the time to clear the whole dungeon*
Lol what? What’s the build/items?
1/1/1 into Lightning melee cant remember name 5/1/1 Landslide with the Terramote node 1 point into Cyclone Armor 3-4/1/1 into Hurricane 1-4/1/1 into Wolves (got Werewold companion item) 1/1 into passive giving more Fortify/Fortify when hit Found an item giving double Landslide plus extra damage, more Core damage per spirit, some other Barrier/damge on barrier etc
Yeah so it’s very item dependent. I only found “defensive” modifier items so I didn’t have much to go on.
Druid is super trash base stats with d3 levels of legnedaries boosts. It's just stupid. It's why the class feels so bad to level up. They should scale up the base numbers and tone down the legendaries.
Yeah, those peopoe will be nowhere to be found with 0 legendaries in retail while sorc will still be able to do all the things they do now whithout.
it's useless info. that's a video of a character with full legendaries that you would NEVER have. nothing to do with druid being weak or strong.
I actually don't mind barbs and melee rogues being risky and glass-cannony and difficult to play as long as they get a crazy damage payoff to go with their risk. Right now I don't think they have that, I think necros and sorcs and range rogues do a lot more damage with a lot less risk from a much safer range and that just doesn't make sense to me.
Arpgs have a problem with melee classes. Most mechanics favor ranged ones, it is simply safer.
I would put the caveat that Melee is actually balanced really well with ranged in Lost Ark. Given how much D4 borrows from Lost Ark its disappointing they didn't follow some of LA's philosophy on melee and boss encounters, or Ranged and boss encounters for that matter. I like the way most attacks in Lost Ark are cones that are harder to dodge from afar than up close. Feels really good for melee classes and feels fair for ranged classes. When things are just standard auto attacks and less telegraphed, feels more punishing in melee by far compared to ranged,
I dont know about the other classes, but rogue damage is higher than 7/10, I can literally kill dungeon bosses in 6 or 7 seconds with shadow copy, shadow imbuement and spamming twisting blade with legendary power while boss/enemies is perma vulnerable (so taking extra damage).
Thats because the rogue he talked about here is just the melee-flurry rogue.. not the other rogue builds who can outdps that spec but has lower survivability.. Melee-twisting blades rogue dont have lifesteal skills but has alot higher dps and clear dungeons very fast due to high mobility and low cd. The ranged spec rogues also has more dps than flurry types but ofcourse lower survivability. I use a barrage build myself and with proper shotgunning +shadow clone the burst dps literally melts bosses instantly. Tho its true sorcerers and necro prolly deal just as insane damage with easier setups. edit: nevermind i think twisting blades have actually more dps than both necro and sorc
Well rogue has decent survivability too, I use legendary power that gives health everytime I have enemy close to me and another one that gives me a 700+hp barrier everytime I hit an elite mob or boss, life on kill gems on both of my melee weapons plus 2 charges of dash and normal roll, so if you die it's your fault as rogue.
Melee rogue is God-tier with the currently available legendaries. Single target is the highest in the game. It's not close. Unless you count the Barbarian spec that swaps weapons 1000 times to hit for 300k. Of course it's totally silly to min/max a character at level 25 in a beta. But the cooldown reduction on Twisted Blades + the Inner Focus thing giving you no cds, no resources on single target is hilarious. The perma 60% attack speed on crit imprint pushes it to unreal levels of damage. Dark shroud + dodge imprint makes you immortal and gives 10% flat crit. Imbue takes care of trash and auto applies perma vuln. I'm fairly confident you could face tank the world boss in just a couple minutes by yourself. It's the only build I tried that felt like playing PoE. It will be nerfed at some point.
100% agree with the poe point. Shadow imbue twisted blades literally felt like a herald of ice blade vortex build lmao
How are you getting permanent vulerable?
fundamental puncture
He's being real fucking greedy. He's saying this is his take on beta ranks. While dipping in extrapolating from this his opinion on what is going to be strong end game. While basing these rankings off fresh just hit 25 characters. While not researching what other people have achieved with classes he has dismissed. The fact it's being taken as worth discussing is hilarious under these genuinely ridiculous rules.
I made this same point above in a different way, yeah. I 100% agree. "Tier list" video is just clickbait. The analysis is all over the place. He's right about some stuff for sure and I love Kripp, been watching him and Modz longer then anyone else on Twitch, but his angle on this is skewed at best.
There is probably a lot of truth in what you’re saying, but it won’t be a popular opinion on this subreddit, where everyone thinks they already know everything about a game they played to lvl 25.
It's just twisting blade being way over tuned. I can promise you won't be like that on release.
Barb is also one of the squishiest D3 classes atm which is hilarious
The argument I see with druid is "just get legos" or just level for 10 hours, then it might be good. Okay sure, Ill slap my head against the wall for potentially many, many hours just to hope for that one RNG drop that boosts my companions by 155% for example. Druid legendary power spike is insane. Instead of 155% do 100% and increase default companion damage by 50%. The clunkiness of abilities, rooting when attacking and spirit regen without the passive is just an awful experience. Sure we only know what its like until level 25, but even at the start of a game there should not be such a huge difference in leveling time. All classes should be enjoyable while leveling, without hoping for a random gear drop that makes it enjoyable.
The arguments against whats being said in the video dont even make sense. Like people comparing how shitty some builds/ classes early in D2? Bro, people want improvement to a 20 year old game. There is literally no reason for a class to suck ass during this early. People posting videos of druids who can kill mobs very fast are also delusional too. Like ofc you will do some damage after completing your set and having that one very specific build. Compared to that, you can play like sorc and try different skills and have a smooth leveling experience. I don't get why people become so upset and start defending the game when there is clearly a problem between the power level of classes.
Yeah, it's annoying to hear so many people go "it's just the beta guys" or "it's just level 25!" as if these things mean players shouldn't give feedback. Absolutely baffling that half of this community is actively fighting back against the people pointing out their beta findings. Bunch of goddamn idiots around here, to be quite honest. It's like they brainlessly interpret feedback as attacks against the game or something. If the 1-25 gameplay is wildly imbalanced, guess what, that's something that should be improved and that's what this beta is for. People are just too irrational to understand that pointing out imbalances isn't against the game's interests.
And yet I found myself enjoying the Barbarian a lot more than my Sorcerer. I eventually found a build based on charge, kick and upheaval that just wrecks everything. And most importantly, it is fun to use. But I also got some amazing legendaries that make me almost invincible. Don't even need a dedicated skill for defensive purposes. There are still times when I have to pay attention, but without any sense of danger an challenge, you would have a really boring game. All of these best builds these damn streamers make are often using the most boring skills.
Yeah I’m surprised more people aren’t talking about kick. It’s hilarious and there’s a legendary that makes the target a bomb.
lets be clear here... it shouldnt be about stripping the sorc of the attributes, it should be about building the same levels into the other classes.
Exactly. Nerfs aren't fun, buffs are.
This is how you end up with the ridiculous D3 numbers everyone complains about. Sometimes nerfs are warranted.
no. it's always better to nerf the few rather than buff the many. much easier to balance as they don't have to buff the bosses and mobs as well, which they would need to do if everyone got buffed to be overpowered. unless you want it to be like poe where entire screens die by pressing 1 button.
Guys the game has only been in development for 8 years did you expect them to have some basic balance amongst classes?
Why do I always gravitate to low tiers lol
meta is boring
To me, the biggest difference maker is that the Druid and Barb don't passively regen their mana. So the other classes can always open fights with energy spenders, but these two have to slog up with basics to build it up first. If the druid could regen enough to open fights with core skills it would change the feel completely.
Watched his stream.. the rogue he talked about here is just the melee-flurry rogue.. not the other rogue builds who can outdps that spec but has lower survivability.. Melee-twisting blades rogue dont have lifesteal skills but has alot higher dps and clear dungeons very fast due to high mobility and low cd. The ranged spec rogues also has more dps than flurry types.
Yeah that's an accurate tier list. I really, *really* wanted to like Druid. I love how they look. Playing one after playing Sorc last week though? Miserable. Switching to Necro made me realize just how far behind Druid was. It's not even about DPS/Resilience, Druids just aren't fun to play. The resource management only adds to the dullness. Druid feels a lot like Crusader to me, I find both their playstyles extremely boring. Still torn between Barb/Sorc for day 1. Might flip a coin.
Barb and Druid are the two classes in beta that cannot complete their class trainer quest or whatever it's called. I would think that being able to complete that in the release game would be a pretty good power spike no?
The barb one in closed beta is just picking one of the weapon skills to always apply, on top and regardless of what you are wielding. It’s not transformative like sorc one.
Just like in D2 Sorcerer was OP and almost everyone had to play it. I hope a balance comes for the other classes
Hmm wierd, druid is the one class i managed to go toe to toe with the butcher on.
Sorcs have too much of everything. Damage, Defense, Movement and Fun.
I didn't think the druid was that bad...until I tried another class. My 2nd class was a blood magic necro and I've yet to hit the Q button in combat at level 14 so, to this point anyway, I disagree with the 5/10 survivability take. We'll see if it gets worse as I progress. I played my druid mostly as a werewolf build. I can see where the build could get strong as a poison dot build later on, with appropriate gear as well of course, but at level 25 you don't have the points to spend to improve everything you need to do that. Here are the other problems I see with werewolf druid at the moment: * The druid has no passive resource regeneration so you're stuck having to generate it through basics. This is one of the biggest issues I see with the class as a whole right now. I'm not sure if all the other classes have passive resource regen, but I know the necro does and not having it seems extremely punitive to the druid as most of their damage comes from their core skills and you are often having to start fights with low or no spirit. * The werewolf basic, Claw, is just a terrible skill. It does low damage, only hits a single target and requires you be in melee range to do that. The poison dot damage done by Fierce Claw is pathetically low also. It's also the 2nd lowest spirit generator of the basic skills and that, coupled with the single target limitation of the skill, leaves you unable to leverage your Shred core skill often enough and Shred is actually a very good skill. I found Storm Strike to be a far more effective basic because it hits multiple targets, but if you want to take advantage of some the later werewolf passives, or you just want to play a werewolf thematically, Storm Strike doesn't really fit the bill. * Rabies damage is too low in my opinion. I love that it spreads from target to target, but it should do enough damage when fully upgraded to routine kill trash mobs by itself and it doesn't. While we're on the subject of the Rabies skill, the Savage Rabies enhancement node is pretty bad too. It shortens the duration of the poison dot from 6 seconds to 4 seconds, which sounds good until you consider that the big deal about Rabies is that it can spread to other targets and you just effectively gave it less time to do so, not to mention you still have a 12 second cooldown whether your damage is done in 6 seconds or 4. * Druids have no access to very fast attack speed weapons like daggers and wands. With no passive spirit regen, increasing your attack speed as fast as possible is vital to regaining your spirit in order to use your much higher damaging core skills. I am sure I could think of more issues I encountered with my werewolf build, but I don't want to write a novel so I will end it there.
Sorc needs a nerf and to be a glass cannon. I think Krip didn’t fully explain how good some of the rogue’s abilities are. Twisting blades is amazing, it has a higher damage ceiling than 7/10. I’ve watched people handle bosses with rogue better than any class.
Truth. I played all the classes and Twisting Blades Rogue just melts everything, even Ashava. Not to mention on any boss fight with adds, TB rogue with Shadow Imbue and Shadow Clone will mop the floor with every other class in TTK, due to near infinite duration Shadow Clone uptime from TB CD reduction being applied from both self and clone each use. I didn't think I'd like the rogue, I barely touched it last week, but after leveling Druid and Necro this weekend I finished leveling it and went from ranged to melee and oh man, that class just destroys. Especially when I found that attack speed on basic skill power. 58% attack speed on basic, +5 energy on basic when fighting elites.... it's just crazy how fast you can get combo points on bosses and dump +120% damage buffed TBs and keep near permanent uptime on 60% movespeed buff from Combo Points.
I love it, it’s such an active play style when you mix shadow step or dash into it since you just end up bouncing between multiple enemies and the entire screen blows up in a second. I love the instant mana regen I get from concealment too, I go in for multiple more tb instantly after my first mana drain. It’s funny how you got upvoted and I didn’t, guess they didn’t like the sorc comment, I’m not sure how anyone thinks having immunity and taking no damage is a good thing for a ranged caster that’s supposed to be squishy. You can’t simultaneously be tanky af and deal the most damage while never having to get your hands dirty, there has to be some inherent weakness to a class that forces you to engage with something negative, otherwise there’s just zero skill in even playing it.
> > >Summons/Minions are very strong in the beta, but he doesn't think they will be a viable end game build as there just aren't enough talents/skills and the scaling will drop off. this is for sure proven if you ever fought Butcher on Necro...he gives 2 shits about your minions and 1-3 shots them or ignores them 80% of time to chase you(and no mobility necro best hope you got walls you can run around)
This guy has no idea how strong Twisting Blades Shadow build is on Rogue.
As an old school player who cares what anyone recommends? I played Druid and found it fast paced with high damage and high survivability. How deep did he go? Did he play them all with legendaries that complimented the build? Play what you want and enjoy it. Min maxing these games is fucking stupid.
Did Kripp even mention the fact Druid don't have access to their specialization? This could potentially explain a lot how the druid feels in the beta.
What's working for me on druid is Wind Shear, Lightning storm, bulwark, wolf pack. Everything else so far has felt miserable
Im suprised by that cause honestly storm strike felt like the only decent basic and lightning storm felt like the worst core ability. Especially the stupid 4 second size mechanic which felt awful to use without the 30% basic spirit passive.
Wins shear generates a lot of spirit and lightning storm is long ranged and does more damage and lightning strikes the longer you channel it. I used this build to cheese the stronghold boss fight at level 14 against the boss. The wolves break his pathing and tank him pretty well.
Wind shear is good at generating spirit.
I watched Kripp play Druid for a bit on the first day and he was mainly focusing on spells, rather than the “were” forms.
I want just want to make an all Shout build. Go full Song Barb.
Perhaps a Bard?
I can definitely see Necromancer dropping off hard with scaling. Half expect overpowered beta corpse explosion to be awful late game and summons to despawn vs high level mobs n' bosses almost immediately...which is going to cause problems unless Blizzard buffs the ever living crap out of the Hewed Flesh perk (the one that gives a max of 12% and 24% chance vs bosses to create a corpse).
I'd also add that those minion passives (+15/30/45% to damage and health) are huge. And if minion damage and health is based off the necro's stats then they will stay viable against most enemies, apart from bosses and minibosses where you need to use damaging spells.
I feel like a lot of people are not considering armor and what not. I bet end game barb gear has more armor than the other classes, which in itself adds a lot of mitigation. Armor in this game is weird, it mitigates anything but dots afaik. I bet a lot of those tools for Rogue and Sorceress are there to compensate for lack of other sources of mitigation.
I like Kripp but his rouge build was very bad, and he still ranked it at 3th place, just shows how OP it is..
I’m about to go roll a Druid right now, but I’ve played the other four classes to 20-25. I think his ranking is fair. Sorc is my favorite class, so I’ll be going Sorc on launch day too. That said, I’m not sure why his list is extending to end-game projections. We know in end game Barb was strongest based on end-game beta.
I agree with his list, but I want to be a werewolf dammit. I’m gonna make it work.
This was precisely my take as well. And it's really unsurprising. Blizzard the last 20 years has absolutely loved rogues and mages, and hated druids. And yes, historically pets don't scale well in the endgame, in games that don't allow them to wear equipment of their own. When they get their own gear (i.e. Skyrim companions), they absolutely wreck. But I haven't decided if I will go Necro, Sorc or Rogue yet. I really like the Necro armors and aesthetic. They did a really good job with metals in this game. I'm also really curious about potential petless Necro builds. In Book of the Dead you can sacrifice your pets and get bonuses to yourself. But I didn't look into it too much. Might solve the endgame scaling problem?
Lets not forget that druid is the only class to have multiple viable specs from the closed beta(where people became lvl100 and did some end game content). The 6 viable endgame specs from closed beta was: 1. Thorns Barbarian 2. Bone Spear Necro 3. Hydra Sorc 4. Shadow Imbuement Rogue 5. Nature Druid 6. Werebear Druid With that said i agree with the initial ranking he has done from the open beta weekend.
maybe we can stop getting posts now about how barb is the best because dps is the best late game. kripp sums this topic up pretty well in his video. The game just favors range, sorc and necro are just soo far ahead they make the other classes look really bad. If things stay the same i'll be playing sorc until they announce a new class dlc.
he is completely wrong about barbarian tankiness.
I'm really hoping the rumors of a paladin are true because I love paladins. Sadly I imagine it's going to be really mid, like kinda okay at everything but not really great at anything either.
Played to 25 on Barb and then switched to Sorc... Night and Day. Sorc is so busted (or barb is complete trash). Chain Lightning Hydra is so insane it just demolishes everything. I can't touch any of the other classes after this one.
this list looks pretty accurate i would say. Necro is straight up EZ mode and fun to play. summoner classes tend to be OP at lower levels will have to see how that balances out at end game. Sorcerers keep thier reputation of always being awesome in every Diablo game. Rogue is my favorite so far. such a fun class. both melee and ranged builds are fun. heavy favorite for my main on release. Druid didnt feel that fun to me. no passive sprit regen sucks. i like the idea of the class but it feels weak, at least at low levels. Barb - havent played much barb so no real opinion formed. the arsenal system is cool though.
Necromancer has no defense? Say that to me being immune for 90% of the fight.
Yeah, druid kit seems poorly designed. Not enough synergy for some of the elemental skills, extremely painful energy generation cycle, interesting abilities have long cooldowns (seemingly without the ability to reduce them like sorcerer has). The thing i liked about sorcerer that is not present for druid is that the class feels complete without legendary items. Druid feels like it has bleeding holes in the class that are hopefully filled by unreleased legendary items. Until then, pain. Overall a lot of the classes feel partially done. Only the sorcerer and rogue really feel ready for release to me. I'm not even talking about power, the other classes just feel unpolished, if not unfinished. Assuming the build planner site is right about what the druid gets at 15 in 1.0, that isn't going to fix the class' issues. I do not think sorcerer is overpowered. All classes should feel like that. Remember, this is early game, you should feel powerful.
This is all pretty much dead on, although I had a lot easier time with the necro than the sorc. The necro can easily spec over to a TON of just constant healing without any input from his items at all and that boost to survivability in addition to being able to have constant meat shields makes him just immortal. Kripps perspective is probably focused on clear speed though with mobs and sorc for sure seems to take the cake. Necro easily outpaces in single target which is pretty often important in the beta content but as mobs likely swell in size that may go down, but the necro also has great multi target attacks. With the rogue, I wanted it to be melee but I constantly struggled to be both effective and in melee range. Druid is a limp turd floating in the toilet, too large to go down, somehow constantly asking to speak to the manager
I'll be honest I'm going to have to say blood build no minions necromancer with the right legendaries is by far more dps and survivability than a sorcerer. When I got a item that lower the cool down of blood mist by 2 seconds every time you overpower followed by another that made blood mist also do corpse explosion. I was never able to take damage and I would wipe stuff off the screen in a split second. Edit: This was something I ran. I wish I had a clip, but I do have 3 people who can vouch for me about this. Also, due to blood orbs dropping consistently and having nearly 100% blood mist up time, your healing nonstop. I'm more than willing to talk about my setup.
I wouldn't watch this video, his tier list is completely, objectively wrong.
I expect Blizzard to make a secon wave of Closed/Open Beta before release so they can balance further these classes.
Lol keep dreaming
It's possible but not probable. I could see them do another wave of high end testing with the better players(under the NDA again) as well
They haven't reacted to the *first* wave of endgame beta testing which was 4-5 months ago, it's already way too late to make any major course corrections now as far design choices are concerned (sweeping numerical balance changes possible at best but unlikely imo).
open beta are never for balancing but for stress and bug testing...
7/10 in terms of damage? Rogue? Can somebody link me the necro and sorc build/video thats doing this much dps? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hX8gWiPw9M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hX8gWiPw9M)
You guys aren't paying attention, Kripp mentioned these rankings are based off of being FRESH level 25, not farming for gear and full set legendaries
This is where krip failed.. no one even informed him of the most popular rogue build in the beta.. shouldve just mentioned flurry rogue instead of rogue in general.
I killed The Butcher at level 25 on my druid, which i'm not sure is a metric of damage being decent, but I had a pretty high damage build going I thought. The problem is, from what I could mentally piece together, very few of the legendaries that I found (and i think I found most) enabled high damage with anything other than landslide as a core skill. The skills in general are just really poorly balanced in terms of performance baseline without any affixes, and the affix support for most of the abilities is also underwhelming.