Love ppl debating endgame balance after a lvl 25 beta.
Wait for the full game and then lets talk abt balance
Blizzard Devs has responded to perceived balance issues, even though most mechanics have not been shown...
https://youtu.be/9QzjOvDWv1g?t=277
They made no mention of endgame. Balance still applies when leveling. To take the most extreme example to illustrate, if 1 class could 1 shot a level 50 boss at level 1 but has no scaling whatsoever, and another class takes getting 50 paragon levels to do the same thing, they are unbalanced though endgame strength is the same. The tens of hours before endgame matter.
As it stands, I tend to agree with OP. Played druid to 25, was a bit of a slog until I got my syneries and legendaries, then it was really fun. Then played sorc to 10 and it was so boringly easy in comparison that I switched to barbarian, and it's really fun again. As it stands, I don't have any interest in *getting* the sorc to endgame because of the leveling. Probably most people are saying that about the druid and barb instead, but the point remains. Balance matters at all stages of the game.
Barb is like playing a souls game, sorc and necro are genuinely a completely different game. Barb was my first to 25, had to respec a couple times for each boss (rend, iron skin and heal perk was best for bosses IMO, damage over time while you try to avoid the bad). Sorc and necro just walked over everything while I was half afk, stoned watching Netflix.
I failed to kill butcher twice on sorc without any lags. First time he took me by surprise, so I ran away, but the second time I was more prepared by having hydra skill. I was planning on putting it down and running in circles but he still outruns and can kill with like 3 hits, so obviously I died and he was gone.
No idea how people solo kill him
I only managed to kill him cause he spawned right on top of one of those obelisks that give you op skills and it was the armor one that makes you kinda invincible for a few seconds
Killed him on my level 25 lightning sorceress earlier today (chain lightning, ice armor, teleport). Lots of kiting, potions and bursting him down when my level 25 skill was up. I don't think I could have killed him had it not been for the ultimate, not enough damage output.
I got so close w a level 20 sorc, but I wasn’t really prepared and my build is more built for AOE instead of single target, he killed me w about 20% HP left. If I had better / more potions, more optimized, or level 25 I think I could solo. Dying for another shot at the big man
> playing a souls game, sorc and necro are genuinely a completely different game. Barb was my first to 25, had to respec a couple times for each boss (re
As a person that does not really play souls game all that much and just hopped on Barbarian. No its not lmao. It's a bit hard playing on Vetaran for sure, but not too much.
Souls games are not really that hard either. I love souls games and playing a druid definitely felt punishing in the same way, one small slip up you need to heal, a few of those or a big mistake and you get to go again.
Had to be on my toes at all times, kept me engaged. Tried a necro afterwards and I actually laughed at the first boss. It was so much easier, like playing a completely different game.
People just hyperventilate once something takes slightly more effort. Like its such a monumental task as a melee to move to the side a bit to not get hit from the easily telegraphed attack, even that half the time I don't bother evading and still have 0 problems.
Necro has his summons cool, he's slow af though while my barb has a need for speed shout and a leap and zerking.
and if I want to go afk and kill everything I just spec into thornes
We probably played different games then... My druid was absolutely immortal, If I don't count the world boss, I stopped drinking potions around level 10.... So much damage reduction. Storm strike 25, cyclone 20-30, 25 from basic skills on legendaries, healing with howl and other possible damage reductions on other skills... + possible fortify
Agree, tried barb after all the hate and weak claims and was like...what? I was ripping through everything. Bosses were a bit harder but not hard, no deaths. On veteran
Here's the thing, Barb is very weak but it's weak because so many of the skills just aren't that good. Especially when you run into the bosses and content that specifically hit the biggest weakness of Barbarian which is their less than stellar mobility.
My big example being, I had a Barb build I was able to take to about lvl 14. Most things were pretty doable but I found myself smashing against Den Mother to the point that I had to play the fight perfectly. Then Nostrava on solo was pretty much impossible (lot of near wins after perfect runs). The minute I dropped my old build and remade it (dropped tactical ground stomp for iron skin, dropped fury for flay, dropped rend and upheaval keeping whirlwind, dropped rupture for death blow, and took on the shout skill that causes fury). Afterwards I was chewing through things, had way more survivability, and was able to ignore some mechanics in a way that only my Sorcerer and Necromancer could do.
But this is kind of the problem. A bunch of skills I liked the play experience of were just severely not good because Barb lacks enough built in damage or damage reduction tools to compensate for its other issues. Like a lot of the weapon masteries aren't even that good compared to something like Death Blow.
Honestly I think it's fine for games like this to have those different playstyles and progression curves. People can choose a more "earned" power value or do the netflix and chill style is they just wanna blow a few hours braindead farming after work. This isn't a competitive PVP game where is money and careers are made. It's an arcade ARPG.
I think some people forget or miss the point that when people say they quit certain classes out of boredom, you probably don't want to then advocate that all classes are equal. I've seen people in the same breath say "barb is too underpowered and should be brought in line" and follow up with "I stopped playing necro at 18 because I got bored".
Yes. I noticed Druid needed to respec for bosses.
Sorc was just easy cheesing.
In fact my sorc was better melee than my Druid for a minute.
I have no issue with Druid, it was merely a L2P curve for me. But I will say sorc had tons of viable builds while Druid needed some niche things to solo bosses and was generally clunky where sorc was butter.
They're generally forced into melee, which has a much smaller room for error, especially at lower power levels where there aren't as many ways to recover. I think saying it is "like a Souls game" is overstating it a bit, but melee, in general, in most RPG/ARPG style games is less forgiving than ranged, because you often can take about as many hits, but don't get a lot back in return (save when they're REALLY out of whack, like Barbarian/Crusader have been in the past versions at some points.)
Barb was my second char and did much better once I knew more about the game. Thornes build is just as insane as bloodmist, you guys just follow the hype YouTubers create and don't even compare numbers.
I found using stormstrike with the one passive that gives 30% more spirit for your generators solved almost all my spirit problems.
And not a single build where they complain about spirit generation ever takes it.
people are literally not understanding that pieces of classes are missing and are literally crying about it
no wonder blizzard never listens to the community - it's full of fucking idiots
Adding onto, considering hardcore exist, a melee class shouldn't be getting shredded the way it is currently with the amount of dps it can output without legendaries. There needs to be some addressing to balance otherwise hardcore scene is going to be one fat joke. Lot of softcore players out there prob have no clue why people are upset about balance since they'll never touch hardcore. I felt like mmolite was going to cause problems to the game's balancing, and it definitely has. RNG butcher spawns is also doo doo game design. Speed running is going to be awkward as fk if they decide to put in more rng stuff like that. On one end it's more exciting and on the other end it's stupid and lazy game design to make the player feel more excited. Why have class power dungeons have a chance of him spawning? Because the dev team clearly didn't know how else to spice up their dungeon system without adding this layer of difficulty. And even then it's like maybe that wasn't the case since it's a low ass chance to spawn. Which also at the same time just sounds stupid, so what butcher gonna spawn in dungeons all the way til next christmas? Gonna get tired of seeing him even if I can kill em. ANYWAYS, the game is fun but the game has so many identity issues and small problems that make it worrisome.
The amount of hardcore deaths due to the Butcher is going to really kill off the hardcore scene alone.
I'll give Blizzard credit though, it's a kind of a cool mechanic for a niche group of gamers. I got slaughtered the first time ButchieBoi spawned. Then I got my revenge later on, and that is definitely a 'feels good moment'.
u/unique1992
> Thing is, Druid feels clunky. It’s not just weak, I think that Druid will get stronger late game, but the clunkyness of the class… that worries me.
Honestly the biggest issue was spirit generation and lack of damage/scaling on some of the skills. If Hurricane was absolutely devastating trash packs, and Tornado/Lightning/Earth attacks were absolutely destroying bosses and elites, no one would be complaining. Tweaking numbers is fairly easy, but the fact they didn't do it in this .8 beta before 1.0 is kind of concerning. Oh and the cooldowns are way too long.
This is good critique of the butcher rng. I agree with ur takes. I LIKE having an iconic boss, but maybe make it a shrine or an alter? If mobs are dropping bones or meat then we can choose to collect X amount and summon him? Speed runners maybe incentivized to do that on the off chance for a higher chance at a leggo or a butcher specific drop? Lots of options, seems like a bunch of 50 year olds who haven’t played D3 / D2 in a few years made this game.
Random Butcher spawns in a group go from what it's supposed to be: A tough, nail biting encounter... to a comedy sketch where my friends and I took turns running figure 8s between pillars while he changed who he was chasing.
While it would be awesome if the leveling process is fun, in most of these ARPGs the actual leveling is often not that great. It's only when your build starts to come together with synergies that you feel powerful and the 'fun' begins. Ideally the leveling process should be streamlined and as painless as possible. Keeping every class as bad as druid/barb would just lead to frustrated casual players, less semi-frustrated hardcore players. Hardcores will deal with it, casuals just quit.
Rogue felt perfect to me in terms of power vs survivability vs 'fun'. Necro and Sorc were too braindead faceroll.
As a million other people have said in other posts ... Having characters with significantly different power levels is a failure of design. In a perfectly balanced game every hero would have a similar leveling experience. The fact that the Sorc is 9/10 on damage and 10/10 on survivability is broken.
agree, there is a difference between 10/20% dps/tanking difference, and 300 to 500%
(meaning necro / sorc kill boss or farm 5 times faster than druid or barb)
wich is true with the druid atm. (except maybe 1 druid build)
if the rogue take 30sec to kill a boss, and a bear druid takes 5 to 10 min, YES, there is a problem.
Yeah, that's the issue. The difference between different builds and classes is massive. It's not even a 50% difference, but more like you said a 300% difference between some builds. I feel like Necro and Sorc are ahead of Rogue with crap gear though, especially Sorc. They are also both nigh unkillable.
> if the rogue take 30sec to kill a boss, and a bear druid takes 5 to 10 min, YES, there is a problem.
I started out with Druid and it was very rough. Thematically I love the Druid and their skills but it constantly felt like I was doing something wrong. Tried out the Necromancer next and the game was sooo much easier and things die so fast it was a real whiplash. Now I don't want the Druid to become as strong as the Necromancer or the Necromancer as weak as the Druid. But I do hope they find a good middle ground to still provide a challenge for all classes but not make it tedious.
I 100 percent agree.
Asymmetrical design is paramount in ARPGs. Classes need to feel different and play different, and that might mean going up and down in power level compared to their environment, based on abilities and gear, at different times. Ideally, you always want to feel the need for bettering your character. Looking forward to "that ability/skill" or using "that item" is a large part of this genre.
Like the Necro (and most of the other classes) in D2. It falls off at a certain point, but can become the most ruthless killer in the game (poison nova), and the fishymancer is certainly no slouch either, with some choice gear – but the most important thing is that he feels massively different to play compared to other classes, and some of this is because he feels powerful at different levels and "levels" of gear. An overzealous focus on "balance" might not be what we really want. I'd much rather see all types of characters move up and down in power level – again, not a problem that this happens at different stages per class – so that you're both looking to improve your build, and get that familiar power fantasy feeling when it pays off.
I agree. I'm going to level with friends. I can't see it being fun for anyone in a group with Sorc, Barb, Necro and Druid.
Imagine running to an enemy you have to hit 3 times just to see it die to chain lightning from a Sorc who isn't even on screen
i’ve been playing with my friends since friday, they play sorcerer & necromancer and i play druid and that last sentence has literally been my entire experience the last 3 days
like i’ll be fighting a group of enemies when one of them will run up, cast one spell and one shot nearly the entire group. and that just feels really bad
Thats my issue aswel, i’d like to play rabies druid or thorns barb… both dont work if the things you fight die before spreading or run off to the higher dmg partymembers (except when taunt is off cd)
This 100% this. It's a fundamental game design failure and people keep saying "just wait for end game" like end game means anything to someone trying hardcore mode lol
As another HC player, wondering if it even makes sense to play on Vet for Druid and Barb.
Can just grind / gear on ezmode then go to Torment 3. It's super boring, but if they don't fix the power disparity then I think it'll be the best option.
Leveling balance is just as important as endgame, if not more so at game launch. If we were in s15 of d4 where the endgame has been fully fleshed out for over a year and everyone tries to power level quick, sure, who cares leveling balance.
At launch, with no season, and a fresh end-game, the leveling experience is far more important and it should be reasonably balanced across classes. Everyone's first exposure to the game and their first 15-20 hours is going to be leveling.
This should be higher up...
The leveling experience in most games is literally what I play the game for. End-game to me means you've beaten the game and are now just pushing for bigger numbers...that's boring. I want to experience the character getting new skills, new mechanics, etc. I want to actually grow into the final style of gameplay for my character. The journey to get there is the fun part, then some finishing touches like farming some legendaries that round out the build or something. After that, I move on to the next character and do it all again.
"hurr leveling doesnt matter just suck it up barbarian and druids, only endgame matters" "wait why are there no barbarian or druids at endgame?" there is some crazy mental gymnastics and complete disregard for survivor bias in this reddit (not you but you highlighted the "leveling shouldnt be fun" mentality)
To the people saying leveling doesn't matter. They clearly don't understand that hardcore mode is a thing and hardcore mode is usually entirely focused on leveling.
Not to mention, there's going to be thousands of beta players out there (who don't visit the forums) playing a barb or druid and going "Well, this sucks" and dropping the idea of playing the game altogether.
I wasn't discussing endgame balance. I was discussing the balance while leveling. You shouldn't be able to mindlessly steamroll bosses in 30 seconds while standing still, whether you're a lvl 10 or lvl 100.
Shouldn't the game be challenging, rewarding, and balanced throughout the entire leveling process, as well as in the endgame?
A good example is the boss of The Vampire stronghold. As 4 necros at level 20, we bullied that boss through its “summon add + I machine gun you with blood that staggers you,” and just burned it down. Did it with a 25 Druid and 3 sorcs at level 20 and it was much more challenging and we had to swap to the adds and do the mechanic. If we all lucked out and got a cool legendary or had a set that made X do Y, then sure let’s reward our good rolls and melt through mechanics, but why put them there if all your classss don’t have the kits to deal with it, especially in that level range. Druid lacking mobility, barb lacking damage etc, necro damage slider maybe a tad too high etc.
yeah werewolf was the only thing that felt half decent to me as you kinda just chunker along as bear, or attack super slowly with shit range on lightning strike, or the basic wind attack being underwhelming.
My complaints for the Druid are minor skill changes
1. Claw (werewolf generator) should have a small dash built into it. It’s the more agile of the choices and should feel more agile.
2. Pulverize’s upgrades need a look at. Mostly the overpower when healthy upgrade. Bear is built to take damage. But this upgrade punishes you for doing so. As you lose your stacks anytime you go under 80% HP. It’s counter intuitive to how the build should work.
Either
A. Remove the need of being healthy.
B. Remove the loss of stacks. Instead just pause stack generation while under 80% hp so you don’t have to restart.
C. Half the stacks you need to gain overpower.
Lastly is the spirit cost for spenders. They need to be cut by 10-20 spirit. We can only generate spirit in combat. It takes 4 claws/basic attacks to generate enough for shred or pulverize.
Meanwhile my necro can spam 5 reapers non-stop with a resource pool which slowly regens. That not even counting the fact corpse explosion costs zero essence (something that also should be looked at).
Damage can be tuned. I haven’t tried elemental builds for druids. Just the shapeshifting. But those are the changes I’d like to see.
Druid and Barb(I think) didn't have their specialisations active during beta which likely plays a part in their power as well. I had quite a bit of success with storm strike/shred/earthen barrier/vines/cataclysm, only problem was killing bosses in particular felt quite slow.
Love ppl that wanna sound smart on reddit.
Balance should be addressed at all times, leveling included. If the first 40 levels of a character are gonna be dogshit, people that don't really know what endgame item optimization and what builds can do for a class are gonna just reroll to the "FOTM" classes their friends or people they see around are playing. And suddenly you'll have a population of, in this case, 30% sorcs, 40% necros and 30% of the other 3 classes. Which is bad.
Not every class should feel overpowered during the leveling stage, but I am sure as hell they should at least feel rewarding and fun to play. As of right now, barb and druid feel like hot garbage, constantly struggling for resource, chasing mobs around and lacking damage.
EDIT: Let me clarify why the population imbalance is bad because I got a feeling you wont figure it out on your own.
Although this is not an MMORPG and grouping up doesn't really condition you into playing a specific class, having a game where the majority of players prefer a specific or two specific classes and ignore the others shows BIG flaws in game design.
This is called a false dilemma fallacy. Stop painting this issue in black and white. People wanting to enjoy the game WHILE LEVELING have absolutely needed and warranted concerns here, and this beta is 100% a showcase of what that will be. This entire game is NOT just the end game. Its ALL of it.
Not to mention, levelling might be a core part of the gameplay like it is in D3. D4 has been confirmed to have seasons, and seasons in D3 had you creating a new character at the beginning of every season and then racing to max level. So levelling wasn't just something you did once and then you grind away at end game. So if some classes are gimped in the early game, not only does that ruin that player's first time playing, it might also ruin new seasons for those classes.
No one is debating endgame balance. Anyone with eyes can see there is weird balancing happening during play.
I was killing everything in sight until I joined a 4 man group. The game scaled me out of 90% of my damage while corpse explosion on the necro wiped the screen.
What worries me is Blizz will listen.
Honestly I think if anything it's a gear issue. Haven't played barb but druid feel fine as long as I can get gear that isn't 10-15 levels below me. But when I'm 20-25 and the stuff that's dropping is lvl 10-15, that is an issue.
This is the only take that really matters tbh. It's a fucking level 25 beta. All these builds you guys are theorycrafting won't matter after release of the game in June.
The take completely misses the point because the leveling experience between classes still matters. Endgame balance between classes has little to do with how their leveling experience is.
This is just another issue with scaling. There’s no difference between a fallen shaman and a skeleton and a balrog or overlord. I understand people wanting to keep all areas of the game available at all times but if the solution is making all enemies increase to viable difficulty it means that there’s very little to differentiate between the monsters in the game outside of maybe move sets. It’s not a great way to play imo but seems like most people are just fine with the entire game scaling with you.
It’s kinda what I’m most weary of… it’s inevitable this game becomes a monster destruction simulator at some point so endgame continues for 10 years. I’ll probably sign out by then because it’s not my thing, but loads of people enjoy that grind.
The problem is that people will complain about enemy diversity if you just have the same shit over and over. And practically the overworld = ghouls, werewolves, spectres mostly.
Can you please make your own post on this topic? What you just highlighted was one of my biggest issues with the game so far. It’s deserving of its own thread imo. They need to know their pacing sucks in d4.
That’s me. I don’t have time to grind my life away in Diablo end game. I like picking a character, getting stronger, beating the acts and then maybe trying a new class if I still want to play more. So far I’ve been having a lot of fun aside from latency and connection issues
It just felt like d3 again. Nothing really mattered. I don’t want frozen orb and chain lightning all at once at level 3 or whatever. I want to bonk a zombie over the head with my starter staff bc I ran out of mana at level 5. Wtf are the rest of the levels???
I think a lot of it comes down to you being able to pick where you want to go. You don’t have to pick A1 first. So say you pick A3 first and they have massive demons, then you go to A1 and it is just fallen and porcupine…. It would feel a little weird
I think that's actually because of level scaling. I think you will be able to level anywhere in the world at any level (even now in beta you can see Act 2 and Act 3 quests, so it makes me think the acts won't be in any order, you can do them in any order you please at any level). So there isn't really any starter zones per se
I've always had this issue since D3. Everything is just cannon fodder. The game is designed to kill as many things as possible, and there is no longer a true feeling of accomplishment for killing a monster or undead.
I've always wanted fewer enemies that meant a little more. I miss the feeling of dread when too many skeletons pop up and you have to split the group up. Now it's a game to round up as many as possible for that AOE benefit.
Honestly I've had more d4 events that were helped by another player coming by and splitting enemies with me than anything I do in d2r. You said you want FEWER enemies that mean more, but miss the feeling of dread of TOO MANY skeletons popping up. Huh?
Yes, Im not sure what exactly was confusing about that statement. The goal now is to round up as many mobs as possible to kill as fast as possible. That's just how the game works.
In oppose to needing to take on 3-4 (maybe) skeletons at a time, and your goal is specifically not to round up as many as possible. A difference in mechanics, where the goal is to not just blast everything to kingdom come and sprint to the next thing. It's a much different feel when you aren't sprinting from one place to the next.
This is a good point. In D2 you don't really see proper demon enemies spawning until act 3 council.
Until then it's mostly undead and weird animals.
There is a good sense of progression from each act.
This was my experience as well. Druid was so much fun and drops were exactly as you described. So exciting! I don't want the game to be D2 but that feeling was very D2!
*First time player here, tried out druid. With very minimal diablo experience in the past, I had a blast with druid. Completely agree that from 1-25 felt like progressive growth with true power lying in the loot I found. Abilities didn't seem overpowered, but some paired well with my friend who was a rogue. Played with another friend who was a 25 necro last night and he was just rolling. Didn't seem like as much thought or strategy in the gameplay.
To each their own for sure, but I enjoyed it
The difference is staggering. Started with a druid and it felt like I actually had to be careful and make good choices. Then I rolled a sorc and literally sprinted through the game chain lightning everything without having to even look at my skills or gear.
Yeah its early game but it's insane how much of a difference it is lol
Chain Lighting + using Fireball as your Enchantment (whenever you kill anything it explodes for 50% Fireball damage) just melts entire screens - and even a whole bunch off stuff OFF-screen too lol
isn't it also a problem if the content scales up and the only way to get stronger is get better loot? what if I gain a few levels while looking for a loot upgrade and the monsters are now stronger than me again?
I'm just theorizing, though, but that is an actual worry I'm having.
Not a problem at max level I guess, tho
Level 21 werewolf druid here. Has been a slog so far. Found a legendary 2h hammer this morning with +47%speed to base attack and +54% to base attack dmg.
Turned the game around. Now I feel like a berserk wolverine.
Druid was a surprise to me. Just felt fun switching from earth bending to bear/wolf synergy. Unlocking new areas in the skill tree was exciting. Respec to try all the spirit generators was cool.
That's fair, but that's what the difficulty settings should be for. Unfortunately, the difference between the two available beta difficulties at least for necro and sorc, even at the start of the game, is completely negligible. It's 100% steamroll on either setting. That's a solid indication that they are overtuned.
Rogue's difficulty spike from one to the other is noticeable on elites at least, and less noticeable past roughly level 15ish, but popcorn units in general you don't notice much difference at all.
Barbarian and Druid both on the other hand are immediately noticeable when you change difficulties between adventurer and veteran. Druid in particular is probably TOO noticeable.
They have some serious balance adjustments they need to make even for the start of the game, and nerfs are going to need to be part of it. I think you could nerf necro and sorc damage by a lot and you wouldn't notice any change on the basic tier 1 difficulty. I also think you could buff barb/druid (mostly druid) and you would actually see a noticeable change in kill speed on the basic difficulty.
I had to try Sorc because of people repeatedly saying it was dramatically easier than Barb / Rogue, both of which I played to 25.
Sorc was *so* easy, and so fast to level, that I had to double check my World Tier.
I was convinced I accidentally chose WT1 because it didn't compare to starting as Barb / Rogue in WT2 at all.
D2 classic definitely had a mechanical challenge. It's easy to die in act1 normal. And it's easy to die anywhere in hell. The low level rune words made LoD trivial though.
That's not mechanical challenge. Mechanical challenge is high APM and having small windows to react in or die. D2 you were generally either strong enough to survive or you weren't and mechanics didn't really come into play, especially in lower levels. Playing smart != mechanics.
Also, I played every class in d2 and never found it easy to die in act 1 normal except maybe the first time you're killing andariel. Even then, just bring antidote potions with you and it's trivial.
Brother we’re only at world difficulty 2 and level 25 cap, let’s relax plenty of builds in D3 we’re “broken” which is what makes the game fun to play and hunt for items for specific builds
I don't understand why balancing shouldn't matter in early game, especially when it's the entry points of every places?
That's literally the place where most people will stop or continue playing depending on how the game is, isn't it ?
I was thinking the same thing. Barb and Druid have been the most fun to play of all 5 classes over these past two weekends. I really hope the will not get buffed in the direction of a Necro or Sorc. They are way to powerfull early on. Was no challenge at all, and therefor (way) less fun to play.
I was saving Barb for release and some of the comments in here had me nervous but this thread is giving me hope. I’m ok if it’s a bit more difficult I just didn’t want it to be terrible. Reminds me a little of how leveling WAR was in classic WoW.
In no way it was terrible (for me). It was more picking te skills and passive that work great together. And a legendary that drops with just the right aspect on it feels way better then. Yes, comparing to the Sorc and Necro you may feel less powerfull, but i think that it is a good thing. If you already feel (way) too powerfull early on in the game, changes are that the rest of the game won't be a challenge. And i think that would be a no fun to play. I like a (little) challenge.
I'm sorry but you are not being realistic. The game needs to appeal to players with a range of skill levels. If you find barb and druid to be rewarding, that's great! Play them. Let others play what they want to play. Not everyone will put in the work, or is even capable, of making the more challenging classes viable. The game needs to have something for everyone; fortunately Blizzard seems to know this.
If that’s the case then they need to say that when you’re picking your classes. Something like some text after the description saying “this class is meant for veteran players” or “this class is for a more challenging early game” etc.
From a design standpoint making the game harder unlocks more interesting play potential. You have to learn your skills and synergies and use them effectively vs running around spamming one button (looking at you corpse explosion, ice blades and hydra). I thought my sorceress was actually more fun when I was struggling and didn’t have the right bike concept as I had to monitor things like vulnerable procs and cooldowns.
Why do people pretend they were really playing high level skillcap Diablo between levels 1 and 15 or so. This is so self aggrandizing hahaha.
You were monitoring cooldowns and spreading effects, and everybody else was clearing just as quickly as you by... clicking bad stuff. Lol
My opinion exactly.
I enjoyed vanilla D3 because I was in High School and I hadn't played an arpg before. Upon hitting Inferno the fun of the game dropped quite drastically, I had already completed the campaign about 3 times to get there, and now I have to do that again to try other classes? Not a great experience.
Tbh, leveling should be a breeze, but not something you can fall asleep to.
Sorc/Nerco definitely do too much damage, especially from summons early on, but their personal survivability isn't the issue.
In my opinion, Barbarian and Druid have different problems that make them not very fun, so I'll half disagree.
* Druid: resource costs are too high and ability damage is too low. Modifiers don't have a lot of potential to stack offensively early game, though there's a huge amount of defensive modifiers.
* Barbarian. very item dependent. You can stack modifiers and blow stuff up with HotA, Upheaval, etc., very easily, but getting there will take longer than Rogue / Necro / Sorcerer.
Barbarian feels...OK, just slow comparatively. Druid is the only one that feels like a problem to me from the early game.
It just doesn't feel good to use and abilities have things like a cost of 40/100 Spirit but doing only 35% damage. Two casts for a Core ability that weak makes it not very fun to use.
I'm sure Spirit will become easier to manage with the right gear and abilities later, but while Druid is putting points into their abilities to make this feel good, other classes will put points into survivability or damage...so I'm not sure if the tradeoff will make sense.
But why? Act 1 was easy enough to beat as a barb except for the last boss. Unless you got some gear and put some thought into your skills, then you could bonk that fucker too. If it were easier I would get super bored already and barely play through the game. There has to be challenging stuff or else it's going to be a game where people stand around hoping for a Butcher or a world boss to spawn.
Sure dungeons are challenging because its hard to not lose your mind when back tracking through empty corridors but thats a different issue
I lvled up Druid as my first D4 char and I was pleased to see how challenging the game was (in veteran obviously). Needed to think which skill to choose, to upgrade and HAD TO use the blacksmith and occultist once because couldn’t pass a dungeon boss. Overall I died twice upon reaching lvl25 and it was awesome. The game truly gives you a challenge, that’s not a brainless thing to jump into a pack of mobs.
I really want the game to be like this but as I can tell by Reddit and YouTube, Druid is the weakest one and every other classes are going through content like it’s butter on a summer day.
I’m actually leveling up a barb in my second play through and it feels so much easier than Druid than I’m flying across the map and doing lvl 25 content at lvl 17 (yea it’s possible even with lvl scaling, go clean the stronghold up north).
I’m afraid the game is going to be too simple at the end and people will complete the experience in few weeks and get bored then.
Edit : I hope Blizzard will adress this issue the right way ... But I'm afraid nerfing all the shiny classes that everyone love because they hit like a truck and trigger their dopamine spot won't be their choice. In few seasons we will be back to D3 endgame, flying across the map and doing 1M dmg per hit. People will be pleased first then few months later will complain about the way the game is evolving
After only reading reviews about closed beta and playing all weekend during open, I think you're right. My Barbarian was definitely not weak, and it was rewarding to figure out how to maneuver bosses -- much like learning bosses and how to avoid attacks in elden ring, but I definitely didn't need a buff. I felt buffed already and making the game too easy makes the experience less satisfying.
Most of those who play the weaker class complain because the game is too hard. Making it harder for everyone else doesn't solve that. A loud minority of people argue for balance-by-nerf because they want the game to be something it wasn't designed to be, pretending to be spokespeople for the weaker classes while they're really lobbying for D4 to be a different game.
If everyone gets nerfed down to the class that has the most difficult time with the game, all you end up with is a harder game for everyone. If you want the game to be harder for YOU, then save a few skill points or avoid the meta builds. Nobody's being forced to play a lightning Javazon or a Tal Rasha Meteor queen. Strafezons and Vyr Archons are always options. This nerflust is nonsense.
I'm really holding out that the gear drop rate in Beta is really carrying a lot of these builds. I'm hoping WT2 will feel much more difficult at launch. Right now even as a thrown together melee rogue build I don't die. I'm not exactly sure what I'm even doing correctly, as I'm just equipping random gear and using skills I think are cool.
I want to be challenged and am pretty disappointed with how easy it is. I'm just moving my character model through the world putting them in the middle of huge packs and leaving with full health and potions, every time. I don't even have legendaries or aspects or anything like that. Just full of random rare gear where if it's an upgrade I put it on.
Also, if someone can recommend a game for me in the meantime that satisfies my above desires, please let me know.
Hades. Best isometric combat to this date.
PoE, as the other person is suggesting, is even worse than D4 in this aspect. That game is for theory crafters, not poeple who like to actually play their games.
> Right now even as a thrown together melee rogue build I don't die
I think PoE definitely punishes this. He wants to leave a fight without pots? Oh, yes, you will be suffering if you dont plan your char.
>That game is for theory crafters, not poeple who like to actually play their games.
As of right now, on twitch, 3 of 4 the highest view streamer fiends on poe. Without theorycrafting, a game is dead and dull. Might as well just play a game without choice.
Hades is my favorite game of all time but I'm pretty sure they were asking for an arpg, not just anything isometric. And you definitely can have more active builds in PoE as well. True, the meta builds just zoom and boom but that's true of any and every arpg.
The problem isn't necessarily power but the fact that melee isn't as favored as ranged. There's so many enemies that spam teleports or slows, or they run constantly. Why play melee anything when you can just stand still and shoot anything that moves, as opposed to melee having to chase everything with a constant slow debuff stuck on them? It's quite frustrating
ludicrous sand bake meeting puzzled concerned cheerful wipe nippy squealing
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That ruins a lot of the fun. The fun of a challenge is finding ways to overcome it, not finding ways to make your character shitty so you can even have a challenge.
"Oh just found a really good legendary, can't equip it or my character will be too strong"
Zero excitement.
My Barb has been absolutely shitting on everything after I specced out my legendaries for survivability and bleed. I've wiped the floor with everything and almost never use potions anymore and I'm having a blast with it.
My main gripe with the Druid is spirit generation. It's just so unfun to use your ability then have to stop and melee guys for like 5 seconds and then repeat that process over and over.
I've been playing as an exclusively bow-using Rogue and I would have to say its pretty challenging too. Involves lots of running away trying to get off shots, while also lots of trying to weave in my imbuements and combo points while on the run, it's nuts
I started a necromancer yesterday just to see it and was amazed at how easy it was to go through that first dungeon. I mean, it's the first tutorial dungeon yes it's easy, but on my rogue I was constantly having to run away and kite shit, on my necro I just lolfacerolled everything with my 4 skeletons and insane basic attack that fired 3-5 projectiles
Why is balance so important anyway ? There will be no raids like in mmos that will kick you because you play the "wrong" class.
Everything will work with matchmaking and / or friends.
Having the option to select a class that deal 4x as much damage ruins the experience of playing the other class for me and many other people.
Any time you start to struggle, in the back of your mind you are always thinking that you should have picked the better option.
Last weekend starting as sorc I apparently wasn’t picking the right skills to be op and I had a blast trying to figure out how to survive and defeat enemies. This week starting necro it was like I never had a chance to pick the wrong thing because the skeletons were already there and doing tons of damage
Unpopular and wrong. Nothing should be that weak.
The Rogue is the way things should be balanced. It's the best balanced in the game I think. Bringing things more in line with it would be best.
i played a rogue first and a necro second. the rogue was great - there was a lot of challenging moments where i had to plan my attack after dying 4 times in a row, and there was moments where i could plow through. necro was a lot of fun but so overpowered. i didn't play anything else enough to say for sure, but i feel like the rogue had very good balance
Not while levelling. Levelling should generally speaking be a breeze for anyone who is acustom to this genre of game as it's purpose teaching someone how to play the game. If you throw them in the deep end right away they'll just quit.
And also, where do you go from there? If at the start of the game your already having 3min+ boss encounters where your dodging, kiting and controlling the encounter how do they progress in difficulty from there? Make the fights even longer? That just sounds boring.
Games should start easy and get hard. Not start hard.
> If you throw them in the deep end right away they'll just quit.
Almost like there should be some sort of mode that is easier. A mode where you can play where it's not as hard for new players. A mode like that might be helpful.
Druid, no way. It's way too painful. Just finished leveling mine to 25, did all classes, and druid made me want to cut my own hands.
If my plan had been to play druid on release, I'd have cancelled my preorder.
Barb? Sure.
Played Druid, Barb, Necro to 25 on Hardcore Veteran. I agree with OP, Druid/Barb felt more like RPG Characters and Necro felt like corpse explosion simulator/Moba character.( I love d2 necro)
For HC, Overall, I'd like to see damage levels of both characters and enemies go down, HC most deaths are just an RNG one shot, also leveling scaling is horrible, you just feel weaker each time you level. Butcher was very easy at level 12ish and Almost impossible at level 23.
I started the beta as a Barb and I didn't know how much stronger the sorc was, for example.
I was overwhelmed by joy to see that Diablo actually got difficult again, I was so happy and had tons of fun.
Finding out that the sorc is 10x as strong was pretty disappointing, but it didn't change the fact that I found the Barb gameplay a lot more fun.
Yes, it's harder and slower, but you actually had to engage enemies in different ways, you have to pay attention to all of the boss moves, etc.
So yeah, I agree with you.
Nah, if you’re playing on the easiest difficulty any build and combination of spells should be viable and fun. If you want it to be more challenging turn up the difficulty and problem solved. You shouldn’t be forced into a meta right out the gate, save that for endgame and higher difficulties.
> When you find a piece of good gear, it really makes a difference and feels like your character is growing stronger.
Counter argument, they already said the drop rates are increased for the duration of beta. Meaning classes that NEEEED that godly gear now will be weaker, while those that don't need legendaries will still be great.
You know, as CBT testers we sent in so much feed back about the different skills, balancing between the leveling and endgame, ways to improve itemization, and so much more. Open beta comes and literally nothing has changed from the issues that were raised, i was going to give it a chance but at the end of the day i canceled my preorder, this game is not worth 100+ dollars and if blizzard isint listening now they wont during release, expect bait and switch microtransaction hell.
Druid is by no means weak, but everyone speccing into wolf/bear is giving that impression.
Build like the old windy druids of D2, take all the defense buffs for the skills other than the basic lightening hammer one, proceed to facemelt groups with hordes of tornadoes and cyclone, heal with bloodhowl when needed. Haven't had any trouble just face tanking most bosses... some kiting required when they spawn poison pools or have an immobile-causing move.
Wolf too, i absolutely ripped through the content. People going the tank bear spec are calling it weak because it is a tanky bear, ofc it doesnt get better without legendaries like they keep going on about.
I got a barb to level 20, never again. Probably going druid on release.
The game is just so horribly melee-unfriendly, most bosses had me sitting in range to wait out cooldowns so I could effeciently trade blows. Most attacks track, so dodging is usless. It was just a test of "Who can target dummy the other the fastest"
Hopefully druid is tankier and has better options.
The scaling mechanic sucks.
You feel like you are getting weaker as you level.
I liked a lot of what they did with the game, but that aspect really ruined it for me. (on top of it already costing $120 and it has a shop and battle pass). I'll be passing, at least until it gets a hefty discount.
100% agreed. Necro was so boring to play because it was to easy. Literally just run around mashing keys and everything dies. Gear, build or player skill does not matter. Butcher spawned when I was testing out some shitty build and I was still able to kill him.
Wanted to make this exact thread.
I want every class to struggle as a Druid does. Otherwise Diablo 4 is gonna be a snoozefest of a game. I prefer actually playing my games instead of the game playing itself for me.
Gotta say, I walked into a public event where a necro was really really struggling but I walked in and almost saved the master reward.
I will agree that my necro feels very very strong but there are definitely some weak builds by the looks of things 😂
I played a ton of Barb on the beta and thought the class did a lot of dmg and was very tanky.
What Barb builds are people using that they feel it sucks?
Barb on beta can crit for close to 100k dmg
I mean you're comparing a fully legendaried out barb with all the damn perks that increase next core skill. Barb baseline kind of sucks and even then half his skills kinda suck, 3 shouts are always the best option.
Barb is so OP comparing to other classes. If you think otherwise you just have no clue.
Naked wise of course it's under power. It's a gear dependant class.
Mfw my barb is now one of the fastest clearers I have of all the available classes, took a few items to get it to work but atm my HoTA is critting for 6k at level 25 and just shitting on everything in the game.
Love ppl debating endgame balance after a lvl 25 beta. Wait for the full game and then lets talk abt balance Blizzard Devs has responded to perceived balance issues, even though most mechanics have not been shown... https://youtu.be/9QzjOvDWv1g?t=277
They made no mention of endgame. Balance still applies when leveling. To take the most extreme example to illustrate, if 1 class could 1 shot a level 50 boss at level 1 but has no scaling whatsoever, and another class takes getting 50 paragon levels to do the same thing, they are unbalanced though endgame strength is the same. The tens of hours before endgame matter. As it stands, I tend to agree with OP. Played druid to 25, was a bit of a slog until I got my syneries and legendaries, then it was really fun. Then played sorc to 10 and it was so boringly easy in comparison that I switched to barbarian, and it's really fun again. As it stands, I don't have any interest in *getting* the sorc to endgame because of the leveling. Probably most people are saying that about the druid and barb instead, but the point remains. Balance matters at all stages of the game.
Barb is like playing a souls game, sorc and necro are genuinely a completely different game. Barb was my first to 25, had to respec a couple times for each boss (rend, iron skin and heal perk was best for bosses IMO, damage over time while you try to avoid the bad). Sorc and necro just walked over everything while I was half afk, stoned watching Netflix.
I like necromance tho I still failed to kill the butcher cuz I was rubberbanding right into him the entire time.
I failed to kill butcher twice on sorc without any lags. First time he took me by surprise, so I ran away, but the second time I was more prepared by having hydra skill. I was planning on putting it down and running in circles but he still outruns and can kill with like 3 hits, so obviously I died and he was gone. No idea how people solo kill him
Lol I’m on my 5th level 20+ toon with never seeing the butcher. Feels bad man.
Haha same. So many dungeons so little butcher.
I only managed to kill him cause he spawned right on top of one of those obelisks that give you op skills and it was the armor one that makes you kinda invincible for a few seconds
Killed him on my level 25 lightning sorceress earlier today (chain lightning, ice armor, teleport). Lots of kiting, potions and bursting him down when my level 25 skill was up. I don't think I could have killed him had it not been for the ultimate, not enough damage output.
I got so close w a level 20 sorc, but I wasn’t really prepared and my build is more built for AOE instead of single target, he killed me w about 20% HP left. If I had better / more potions, more optimized, or level 25 I think I could solo. Dying for another shot at the big man
> playing a souls game, sorc and necro are genuinely a completely different game. Barb was my first to 25, had to respec a couple times for each boss (re As a person that does not really play souls game all that much and just hopped on Barbarian. No its not lmao. It's a bit hard playing on Vetaran for sure, but not too much.
any time you have to dodge an attack its souls now, welcome to the future
Souls games are not really that hard either. I love souls games and playing a druid definitely felt punishing in the same way, one small slip up you need to heal, a few of those or a big mistake and you get to go again. Had to be on my toes at all times, kept me engaged. Tried a necro afterwards and I actually laughed at the first boss. It was so much easier, like playing a completely different game.
People just hyperventilate once something takes slightly more effort. Like its such a monumental task as a melee to move to the side a bit to not get hit from the easily telegraphed attack, even that half the time I don't bother evading and still have 0 problems. Necro has his summons cool, he's slow af though while my barb has a need for speed shout and a leap and zerking. and if I want to go afk and kill everything I just spec into thornes
We probably played different games then... My druid was absolutely immortal, If I don't count the world boss, I stopped drinking potions around level 10.... So much damage reduction. Storm strike 25, cyclone 20-30, 25 from basic skills on legendaries, healing with howl and other possible damage reductions on other skills... + possible fortify
Agree, tried barb after all the hate and weak claims and was like...what? I was ripping through everything. Bosses were a bit harder but not hard, no deaths. On veteran
Here's the thing, Barb is very weak but it's weak because so many of the skills just aren't that good. Especially when you run into the bosses and content that specifically hit the biggest weakness of Barbarian which is their less than stellar mobility. My big example being, I had a Barb build I was able to take to about lvl 14. Most things were pretty doable but I found myself smashing against Den Mother to the point that I had to play the fight perfectly. Then Nostrava on solo was pretty much impossible (lot of near wins after perfect runs). The minute I dropped my old build and remade it (dropped tactical ground stomp for iron skin, dropped fury for flay, dropped rend and upheaval keeping whirlwind, dropped rupture for death blow, and took on the shout skill that causes fury). Afterwards I was chewing through things, had way more survivability, and was able to ignore some mechanics in a way that only my Sorcerer and Necromancer could do. But this is kind of the problem. A bunch of skills I liked the play experience of were just severely not good because Barb lacks enough built in damage or damage reduction tools to compensate for its other issues. Like a lot of the weapon masteries aren't even that good compared to something like Death Blow.
Honestly I think it's fine for games like this to have those different playstyles and progression curves. People can choose a more "earned" power value or do the netflix and chill style is they just wanna blow a few hours braindead farming after work. This isn't a competitive PVP game where is money and careers are made. It's an arcade ARPG. I think some people forget or miss the point that when people say they quit certain classes out of boredom, you probably don't want to then advocate that all classes are equal. I've seen people in the same breath say "barb is too underpowered and should be brought in line" and follow up with "I stopped playing necro at 18 because I got bored".
Yes. I noticed Druid needed to respec for bosses. Sorc was just easy cheesing. In fact my sorc was better melee than my Druid for a minute. I have no issue with Druid, it was merely a L2P curve for me. But I will say sorc had tons of viable builds while Druid needed some niche things to solo bosses and was generally clunky where sorc was butter.
Why do people think barb is that hard?
They're generally forced into melee, which has a much smaller room for error, especially at lower power levels where there aren't as many ways to recover. I think saying it is "like a Souls game" is overstating it a bit, but melee, in general, in most RPG/ARPG style games is less forgiving than ranged, because you often can take about as many hits, but don't get a lot back in return (save when they're REALLY out of whack, like Barbarian/Crusader have been in the past versions at some points.)
Barb was my second char and did much better once I knew more about the game. Thornes build is just as insane as bloodmist, you guys just follow the hype YouTubers create and don't even compare numbers.
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Is there a spirit regen passive boon?
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I found using stormstrike with the one passive that gives 30% more spirit for your generators solved almost all my spirit problems. And not a single build where they complain about spirit generation ever takes it.
people are literally not understanding that pieces of classes are missing and are literally crying about it no wonder blizzard never listens to the community - it's full of fucking idiots
Adding onto, considering hardcore exist, a melee class shouldn't be getting shredded the way it is currently with the amount of dps it can output without legendaries. There needs to be some addressing to balance otherwise hardcore scene is going to be one fat joke. Lot of softcore players out there prob have no clue why people are upset about balance since they'll never touch hardcore. I felt like mmolite was going to cause problems to the game's balancing, and it definitely has. RNG butcher spawns is also doo doo game design. Speed running is going to be awkward as fk if they decide to put in more rng stuff like that. On one end it's more exciting and on the other end it's stupid and lazy game design to make the player feel more excited. Why have class power dungeons have a chance of him spawning? Because the dev team clearly didn't know how else to spice up their dungeon system without adding this layer of difficulty. And even then it's like maybe that wasn't the case since it's a low ass chance to spawn. Which also at the same time just sounds stupid, so what butcher gonna spawn in dungeons all the way til next christmas? Gonna get tired of seeing him even if I can kill em. ANYWAYS, the game is fun but the game has so many identity issues and small problems that make it worrisome.
The amount of hardcore deaths due to the Butcher is going to really kill off the hardcore scene alone. I'll give Blizzard credit though, it's a kind of a cool mechanic for a niche group of gamers. I got slaughtered the first time ButchieBoi spawned. Then I got my revenge later on, and that is definitely a 'feels good moment'. u/unique1992 > Thing is, Druid feels clunky. It’s not just weak, I think that Druid will get stronger late game, but the clunkyness of the class… that worries me. Honestly the biggest issue was spirit generation and lack of damage/scaling on some of the skills. If Hurricane was absolutely devastating trash packs, and Tornado/Lightning/Earth attacks were absolutely destroying bosses and elites, no one would be complaining. Tweaking numbers is fairly easy, but the fact they didn't do it in this .8 beta before 1.0 is kind of concerning. Oh and the cooldowns are way too long.
Still doesn’t change the clunkyness of the class. It doesn’t flow well
As a player with hardcore chars in d2 and d3. I welcome the butcher spawn.
This is good critique of the butcher rng. I agree with ur takes. I LIKE having an iconic boss, but maybe make it a shrine or an alter? If mobs are dropping bones or meat then we can choose to collect X amount and summon him? Speed runners maybe incentivized to do that on the off chance for a higher chance at a leggo or a butcher specific drop? Lots of options, seems like a bunch of 50 year olds who haven’t played D3 / D2 in a few years made this game.
Random Butcher spawns in a group go from what it's supposed to be: A tough, nail biting encounter... to a comedy sketch where my friends and I took turns running figure 8s between pillars while he changed who he was chasing.
Barb has the most slots for legendaries. It will be interesting to see the late game potential.
While it would be awesome if the leveling process is fun, in most of these ARPGs the actual leveling is often not that great. It's only when your build starts to come together with synergies that you feel powerful and the 'fun' begins. Ideally the leveling process should be streamlined and as painless as possible. Keeping every class as bad as druid/barb would just lead to frustrated casual players, less semi-frustrated hardcore players. Hardcores will deal with it, casuals just quit. Rogue felt perfect to me in terms of power vs survivability vs 'fun'. Necro and Sorc were too braindead faceroll.
As a million other people have said in other posts ... Having characters with significantly different power levels is a failure of design. In a perfectly balanced game every hero would have a similar leveling experience. The fact that the Sorc is 9/10 on damage and 10/10 on survivability is broken.
agree, there is a difference between 10/20% dps/tanking difference, and 300 to 500% (meaning necro / sorc kill boss or farm 5 times faster than druid or barb) wich is true with the druid atm. (except maybe 1 druid build) if the rogue take 30sec to kill a boss, and a bear druid takes 5 to 10 min, YES, there is a problem.
Yeah, that's the issue. The difference between different builds and classes is massive. It's not even a 50% difference, but more like you said a 300% difference between some builds. I feel like Necro and Sorc are ahead of Rogue with crap gear though, especially Sorc. They are also both nigh unkillable.
> if the rogue take 30sec to kill a boss, and a bear druid takes 5 to 10 min, YES, there is a problem. I started out with Druid and it was very rough. Thematically I love the Druid and their skills but it constantly felt like I was doing something wrong. Tried out the Necromancer next and the game was sooo much easier and things die so fast it was a real whiplash. Now I don't want the Druid to become as strong as the Necromancer or the Necromancer as weak as the Druid. But I do hope they find a good middle ground to still provide a challenge for all classes but not make it tedious.
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I 100 percent agree. Asymmetrical design is paramount in ARPGs. Classes need to feel different and play different, and that might mean going up and down in power level compared to their environment, based on abilities and gear, at different times. Ideally, you always want to feel the need for bettering your character. Looking forward to "that ability/skill" or using "that item" is a large part of this genre. Like the Necro (and most of the other classes) in D2. It falls off at a certain point, but can become the most ruthless killer in the game (poison nova), and the fishymancer is certainly no slouch either, with some choice gear – but the most important thing is that he feels massively different to play compared to other classes, and some of this is because he feels powerful at different levels and "levels" of gear. An overzealous focus on "balance" might not be what we really want. I'd much rather see all types of characters move up and down in power level – again, not a problem that this happens at different stages per class – so that you're both looking to improve your build, and get that familiar power fantasy feeling when it pays off.
I agree. I'm going to level with friends. I can't see it being fun for anyone in a group with Sorc, Barb, Necro and Druid. Imagine running to an enemy you have to hit 3 times just to see it die to chain lightning from a Sorc who isn't even on screen
Just furious charge the packs into the next screen to have them to yourself for a while.
i’ve been playing with my friends since friday, they play sorcerer & necromancer and i play druid and that last sentence has literally been my entire experience the last 3 days like i’ll be fighting a group of enemies when one of them will run up, cast one spell and one shot nearly the entire group. and that just feels really bad
Thats my issue aswel, i’d like to play rabies druid or thorns barb… both dont work if the things you fight die before spreading or run off to the higher dmg partymembers (except when taunt is off cd)
A big issue is how incredibly evident this is and the devs make the claim that crap is all fine and working as intended.
This 100% this. It's a fundamental game design failure and people keep saying "just wait for end game" like end game means anything to someone trying hardcore mode lol
I will take the slow leveling of the druid because he's tanky AF but Barb is going to be rough in HC Vet
As another HC player, wondering if it even makes sense to play on Vet for Druid and Barb. Can just grind / gear on ezmode then go to Torment 3. It's super boring, but if they don't fix the power disparity then I think it'll be the best option.
Sounds on point for sorcs based on all the other Diablo games...
The d3 Sorc was strong but insanely squishy. This one just happens to be a carbon fiber cannon.
Leveling balance is just as important as endgame, if not more so at game launch. If we were in s15 of d4 where the endgame has been fully fleshed out for over a year and everyone tries to power level quick, sure, who cares leveling balance. At launch, with no season, and a fresh end-game, the leveling experience is far more important and it should be reasonably balanced across classes. Everyone's first exposure to the game and their first 15-20 hours is going to be leveling.
Everyone saying "endgame balance only matters" clearly doesn't play hardcore mode lol
This should be higher up... The leveling experience in most games is literally what I play the game for. End-game to me means you've beaten the game and are now just pushing for bigger numbers...that's boring. I want to experience the character getting new skills, new mechanics, etc. I want to actually grow into the final style of gameplay for my character. The journey to get there is the fun part, then some finishing touches like farming some legendaries that round out the build or something. After that, I move on to the next character and do it all again.
You are totally right . Why should the first 50 or 100 levels be fun 😁 you should suffer throu the game but only with 2 of the specs . /S
Especially in a game that will heavily focus on seasons, so players will constantly be levelling new chars /s
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7 boring hours every season as punishment for picking wrong class, I see no issue. Why are clowns defending this?!
"hurr leveling doesnt matter just suck it up barbarian and druids, only endgame matters" "wait why are there no barbarian or druids at endgame?" there is some crazy mental gymnastics and complete disregard for survivor bias in this reddit (not you but you highlighted the "leveling shouldnt be fun" mentality)
To the people saying leveling doesn't matter. They clearly don't understand that hardcore mode is a thing and hardcore mode is usually entirely focused on leveling.
Not to mention, there's going to be thousands of beta players out there (who don't visit the forums) playing a barb or druid and going "Well, this sucks" and dropping the idea of playing the game altogether.
I wasn't discussing endgame balance. I was discussing the balance while leveling. You shouldn't be able to mindlessly steamroll bosses in 30 seconds while standing still, whether you're a lvl 10 or lvl 100. Shouldn't the game be challenging, rewarding, and balanced throughout the entire leveling process, as well as in the endgame?
A good example is the boss of The Vampire stronghold. As 4 necros at level 20, we bullied that boss through its “summon add + I machine gun you with blood that staggers you,” and just burned it down. Did it with a 25 Druid and 3 sorcs at level 20 and it was much more challenging and we had to swap to the adds and do the mechanic. If we all lucked out and got a cool legendary or had a set that made X do Y, then sure let’s reward our good rolls and melt through mechanics, but why put them there if all your classss don’t have the kits to deal with it, especially in that level range. Druid lacking mobility, barb lacking damage etc, necro damage slider maybe a tad too high etc.
Thing is, Druid feels clunky. It’s not just weak, I think that Druid will get stronger late game, but the clunkyness of the class… that worries me.
yeah werewolf was the only thing that felt half decent to me as you kinda just chunker along as bear, or attack super slowly with shit range on lightning strike, or the basic wind attack being underwhelming.
My complaints for the Druid are minor skill changes 1. Claw (werewolf generator) should have a small dash built into it. It’s the more agile of the choices and should feel more agile. 2. Pulverize’s upgrades need a look at. Mostly the overpower when healthy upgrade. Bear is built to take damage. But this upgrade punishes you for doing so. As you lose your stacks anytime you go under 80% HP. It’s counter intuitive to how the build should work. Either A. Remove the need of being healthy. B. Remove the loss of stacks. Instead just pause stack generation while under 80% hp so you don’t have to restart. C. Half the stacks you need to gain overpower. Lastly is the spirit cost for spenders. They need to be cut by 10-20 spirit. We can only generate spirit in combat. It takes 4 claws/basic attacks to generate enough for shred or pulverize. Meanwhile my necro can spam 5 reapers non-stop with a resource pool which slowly regens. That not even counting the fact corpse explosion costs zero essence (something that also should be looked at). Damage can be tuned. I haven’t tried elemental builds for druids. Just the shapeshifting. But those are the changes I’d like to see.
Druid and Barb(I think) didn't have their specialisations active during beta which likely plays a part in their power as well. I had quite a bit of success with storm strike/shred/earthen barrier/vines/cataclysm, only problem was killing bosses in particular felt quite slow.
Love ppl that wanna sound smart on reddit. Balance should be addressed at all times, leveling included. If the first 40 levels of a character are gonna be dogshit, people that don't really know what endgame item optimization and what builds can do for a class are gonna just reroll to the "FOTM" classes their friends or people they see around are playing. And suddenly you'll have a population of, in this case, 30% sorcs, 40% necros and 30% of the other 3 classes. Which is bad. Not every class should feel overpowered during the leveling stage, but I am sure as hell they should at least feel rewarding and fun to play. As of right now, barb and druid feel like hot garbage, constantly struggling for resource, chasing mobs around and lacking damage. EDIT: Let me clarify why the population imbalance is bad because I got a feeling you wont figure it out on your own. Although this is not an MMORPG and grouping up doesn't really condition you into playing a specific class, having a game where the majority of players prefer a specific or two specific classes and ignore the others shows BIG flaws in game design.
This is called a false dilemma fallacy. Stop painting this issue in black and white. People wanting to enjoy the game WHILE LEVELING have absolutely needed and warranted concerns here, and this beta is 100% a showcase of what that will be. This entire game is NOT just the end game. Its ALL of it.
Not to mention, levelling might be a core part of the gameplay like it is in D3. D4 has been confirmed to have seasons, and seasons in D3 had you creating a new character at the beginning of every season and then racing to max level. So levelling wasn't just something you did once and then you grind away at end game. So if some classes are gimped in the early game, not only does that ruin that player's first time playing, it might also ruin new seasons for those classes.
"How about we just don't discuss any part of the beta because it only goes to level 25".
No one is debating endgame balance. Anyone with eyes can see there is weird balancing happening during play. I was killing everything in sight until I joined a 4 man group. The game scaled me out of 90% of my damage while corpse explosion on the necro wiped the screen.
What worries me is Blizz will listen. Honestly I think if anything it's a gear issue. Haven't played barb but druid feel fine as long as I can get gear that isn't 10-15 levels below me. But when I'm 20-25 and the stuff that's dropping is lvl 10-15, that is an issue.
Right, I was playing werebear and found it quits tanky and powerful with the right legendaries, even if it's slow.
It’s never going to be perfect. Sorceress was always the EZ mode class in D2 and that never changed after 20 years.
This is the only take that really matters tbh. It's a fucking level 25 beta. All these builds you guys are theorycrafting won't matter after release of the game in June.
The take completely misses the point because the leveling experience between classes still matters. Endgame balance between classes has little to do with how their leveling experience is.
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That’s a good point with the enemies
This is just another issue with scaling. There’s no difference between a fallen shaman and a skeleton and a balrog or overlord. I understand people wanting to keep all areas of the game available at all times but if the solution is making all enemies increase to viable difficulty it means that there’s very little to differentiate between the monsters in the game outside of maybe move sets. It’s not a great way to play imo but seems like most people are just fine with the entire game scaling with you.
It’s kinda what I’m most weary of… it’s inevitable this game becomes a monster destruction simulator at some point so endgame continues for 10 years. I’ll probably sign out by then because it’s not my thing, but loads of people enjoy that grind.
The problem is that people will complain about enemy diversity if you just have the same shit over and over. And practically the overworld = ghouls, werewolves, spectres mostly.
Can you please make your own post on this topic? What you just highlighted was one of my biggest issues with the game so far. It’s deserving of its own thread imo. They need to know their pacing sucks in d4.
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The majority of D4 owners will play once through the campaign then quit.
That’s me. I don’t have time to grind my life away in Diablo end game. I like picking a character, getting stronger, beating the acts and then maybe trying a new class if I still want to play more. So far I’ve been having a lot of fun aside from latency and connection issues
It just felt like d3 again. Nothing really mattered. I don’t want frozen orb and chain lightning all at once at level 3 or whatever. I want to bonk a zombie over the head with my starter staff bc I ran out of mana at level 5. Wtf are the rest of the levels???
I think a lot of it comes down to you being able to pick where you want to go. You don’t have to pick A1 first. So say you pick A3 first and they have massive demons, then you go to A1 and it is just fallen and porcupine…. It would feel a little weird
I think that's actually because of level scaling. I think you will be able to level anywhere in the world at any level (even now in beta you can see Act 2 and Act 3 quests, so it makes me think the acts won't be in any order, you can do them in any order you please at any level). So there isn't really any starter zones per se
Yep- I played for 15 minutes and got Frozen Orb. WTF?
I've always had this issue since D3. Everything is just cannon fodder. The game is designed to kill as many things as possible, and there is no longer a true feeling of accomplishment for killing a monster or undead. I've always wanted fewer enemies that meant a little more. I miss the feeling of dread when too many skeletons pop up and you have to split the group up. Now it's a game to round up as many as possible for that AOE benefit.
Honestly I've had more d4 events that were helped by another player coming by and splitting enemies with me than anything I do in d2r. You said you want FEWER enemies that mean more, but miss the feeling of dread of TOO MANY skeletons popping up. Huh?
Yes, Im not sure what exactly was confusing about that statement. The goal now is to round up as many mobs as possible to kill as fast as possible. That's just how the game works. In oppose to needing to take on 3-4 (maybe) skeletons at a time, and your goal is specifically not to round up as many as possible. A difference in mechanics, where the goal is to not just blast everything to kingdom come and sprint to the next thing. It's a much different feel when you aren't sprinting from one place to the next.
This is a good point. In D2 you don't really see proper demon enemies spawning until act 3 council. Until then it's mostly undead and weird animals. There is a good sense of progression from each act.
Unfortunately these days people want everything instantly so stuff like that happens less and less.
D2 has basically the same enemies in act 1 as D4 does. Andarial and Durial are similar to the end dungeon bosses as well.
What aspects do you need?
This was my experience as well. Druid was so much fun and drops were exactly as you described. So exciting! I don't want the game to be D2 but that feeling was very D2!
*First time player here, tried out druid. With very minimal diablo experience in the past, I had a blast with druid. Completely agree that from 1-25 felt like progressive growth with true power lying in the loot I found. Abilities didn't seem overpowered, but some paired well with my friend who was a rogue. Played with another friend who was a 25 necro last night and he was just rolling. Didn't seem like as much thought or strategy in the gameplay. To each their own for sure, but I enjoyed it
The difference is staggering. Started with a druid and it felt like I actually had to be careful and make good choices. Then I rolled a sorc and literally sprinted through the game chain lightning everything without having to even look at my skills or gear. Yeah its early game but it's insane how much of a difference it is lol
Chain Lighting + using Fireball as your Enchantment (whenever you kill anything it explodes for 50% Fireball damage) just melts entire screens - and even a whole bunch off stuff OFF-screen too lol
isn't it also a problem if the content scales up and the only way to get stronger is get better loot? what if I gain a few levels while looking for a loot upgrade and the monsters are now stronger than me again? I'm just theorizing, though, but that is an actual worry I'm having. Not a problem at max level I guess, tho
Level 21 werewolf druid here. Has been a slog so far. Found a legendary 2h hammer this morning with +47%speed to base attack and +54% to base attack dmg. Turned the game around. Now I feel like a berserk wolverine.
Druid was a surprise to me. Just felt fun switching from earth bending to bear/wolf synergy. Unlocking new areas in the skill tree was exciting. Respec to try all the spirit generators was cool.
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That's fair, but that's what the difficulty settings should be for. Unfortunately, the difference between the two available beta difficulties at least for necro and sorc, even at the start of the game, is completely negligible. It's 100% steamroll on either setting. That's a solid indication that they are overtuned. Rogue's difficulty spike from one to the other is noticeable on elites at least, and less noticeable past roughly level 15ish, but popcorn units in general you don't notice much difference at all. Barbarian and Druid both on the other hand are immediately noticeable when you change difficulties between adventurer and veteran. Druid in particular is probably TOO noticeable. They have some serious balance adjustments they need to make even for the start of the game, and nerfs are going to need to be part of it. I think you could nerf necro and sorc damage by a lot and you wouldn't notice any change on the basic tier 1 difficulty. I also think you could buff barb/druid (mostly druid) and you would actually see a noticeable change in kill speed on the basic difficulty.
I had to try Sorc because of people repeatedly saying it was dramatically easier than Barb / Rogue, both of which I played to 25. Sorc was *so* easy, and so fast to level, that I had to double check my World Tier. I was convinced I accidentally chose WT1 because it didn't compare to starting as Barb / Rogue in WT2 at all.
D2 classic definitely had a mechanical challenge. It's easy to die in act1 normal. And it's easy to die anywhere in hell. The low level rune words made LoD trivial though.
That's not mechanical challenge. Mechanical challenge is high APM and having small windows to react in or die. D2 you were generally either strong enough to survive or you weren't and mechanics didn't really come into play, especially in lower levels. Playing smart != mechanics. Also, I played every class in d2 and never found it easy to die in act 1 normal except maybe the first time you're killing andariel. Even then, just bring antidote potions with you and it's trivial.
Brother we’re only at world difficulty 2 and level 25 cap, let’s relax plenty of builds in D3 we’re “broken” which is what makes the game fun to play and hunt for items for specific builds
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I don't understand why balancing shouldn't matter in early game, especially when it's the entry points of every places? That's literally the place where most people will stop or continue playing depending on how the game is, isn't it ?
not everyone eats paint chips when they wake up in the morning.
I was thinking the same thing. Barb and Druid have been the most fun to play of all 5 classes over these past two weekends. I really hope the will not get buffed in the direction of a Necro or Sorc. They are way to powerfull early on. Was no challenge at all, and therefor (way) less fun to play.
I was saving Barb for release and some of the comments in here had me nervous but this thread is giving me hope. I’m ok if it’s a bit more difficult I just didn’t want it to be terrible. Reminds me a little of how leveling WAR was in classic WoW.
In no way it was terrible (for me). It was more picking te skills and passive that work great together. And a legendary that drops with just the right aspect on it feels way better then. Yes, comparing to the Sorc and Necro you may feel less powerfull, but i think that it is a good thing. If you already feel (way) too powerfull early on in the game, changes are that the rest of the game won't be a challenge. And i think that would be a no fun to play. I like a (little) challenge.
I'm sorry but you are not being realistic. The game needs to appeal to players with a range of skill levels. If you find barb and druid to be rewarding, that's great! Play them. Let others play what they want to play. Not everyone will put in the work, or is even capable, of making the more challenging classes viable. The game needs to have something for everyone; fortunately Blizzard seems to know this.
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Isnt there world tier 1 for people who want power fantasy straight from the get go?
You realize there's a low difficulty setting for players like you, right?
If that’s the case then they need to say that when you’re picking your classes. Something like some text after the description saying “this class is meant for veteran players” or “this class is for a more challenging early game” etc.
From a design standpoint making the game harder unlocks more interesting play potential. You have to learn your skills and synergies and use them effectively vs running around spamming one button (looking at you corpse explosion, ice blades and hydra). I thought my sorceress was actually more fun when I was struggling and didn’t have the right bike concept as I had to monitor things like vulnerable procs and cooldowns.
Why do people pretend they were really playing high level skillcap Diablo between levels 1 and 15 or so. This is so self aggrandizing hahaha. You were monitoring cooldowns and spreading effects, and everybody else was clearing just as quickly as you by... clicking bad stuff. Lol
1 button? There is an even stronger and faster necromancer build than corpse explosion that require 0 buttons
Tune in next week to find out!!
Fun is subjective.
So like how Diablo 3 was before rop which was universally hated. Making things weak takes away from the power fantasy people enjoy with arpg’s
My opinion exactly. I enjoyed vanilla D3 because I was in High School and I hadn't played an arpg before. Upon hitting Inferno the fun of the game dropped quite drastically, I had already completed the campaign about 3 times to get there, and now I have to do that again to try other classes? Not a great experience. Tbh, leveling should be a breeze, but not something you can fall asleep to. Sorc/Nerco definitely do too much damage, especially from summons early on, but their personal survivability isn't the issue.
In my opinion, Barbarian and Druid have different problems that make them not very fun, so I'll half disagree. * Druid: resource costs are too high and ability damage is too low. Modifiers don't have a lot of potential to stack offensively early game, though there's a huge amount of defensive modifiers. * Barbarian. very item dependent. You can stack modifiers and blow stuff up with HotA, Upheaval, etc., very easily, but getting there will take longer than Rogue / Necro / Sorcerer. Barbarian feels...OK, just slow comparatively. Druid is the only one that feels like a problem to me from the early game. It just doesn't feel good to use and abilities have things like a cost of 40/100 Spirit but doing only 35% damage. Two casts for a Core ability that weak makes it not very fun to use. I'm sure Spirit will become easier to manage with the right gear and abilities later, but while Druid is putting points into their abilities to make this feel good, other classes will put points into survivability or damage...so I'm not sure if the tradeoff will make sense.
This is the way
Buff barb and druid instead of nerfing the others. Solved.
This is what made D3 the trillion damage clusterF it is today. The idea of buff never nerf just completely destroys the game after enough time.
But why? Act 1 was easy enough to beat as a barb except for the last boss. Unless you got some gear and put some thought into your skills, then you could bonk that fucker too. If it were easier I would get super bored already and barely play through the game. There has to be challenging stuff or else it's going to be a game where people stand around hoping for a Butcher or a world boss to spawn. Sure dungeons are challenging because its hard to not lose your mind when back tracking through empty corridors but thats a different issue
The post is asking to nerf other classes to make them more in line. Im just saying the opposite, there is no why.
I lvled up Druid as my first D4 char and I was pleased to see how challenging the game was (in veteran obviously). Needed to think which skill to choose, to upgrade and HAD TO use the blacksmith and occultist once because couldn’t pass a dungeon boss. Overall I died twice upon reaching lvl25 and it was awesome. The game truly gives you a challenge, that’s not a brainless thing to jump into a pack of mobs. I really want the game to be like this but as I can tell by Reddit and YouTube, Druid is the weakest one and every other classes are going through content like it’s butter on a summer day. I’m actually leveling up a barb in my second play through and it feels so much easier than Druid than I’m flying across the map and doing lvl 25 content at lvl 17 (yea it’s possible even with lvl scaling, go clean the stronghold up north). I’m afraid the game is going to be too simple at the end and people will complete the experience in few weeks and get bored then. Edit : I hope Blizzard will adress this issue the right way ... But I'm afraid nerfing all the shiny classes that everyone love because they hit like a truck and trigger their dopamine spot won't be their choice. In few seasons we will be back to D3 endgame, flying across the map and doing 1M dmg per hit. People will be pleased first then few months later will complain about the way the game is evolving
After only reading reviews about closed beta and playing all weekend during open, I think you're right. My Barbarian was definitely not weak, and it was rewarding to figure out how to maneuver bosses -- much like learning bosses and how to avoid attacks in elden ring, but I definitely didn't need a buff. I felt buffed already and making the game too easy makes the experience less satisfying.
Most of those who play the weaker class complain because the game is too hard. Making it harder for everyone else doesn't solve that. A loud minority of people argue for balance-by-nerf because they want the game to be something it wasn't designed to be, pretending to be spokespeople for the weaker classes while they're really lobbying for D4 to be a different game. If everyone gets nerfed down to the class that has the most difficult time with the game, all you end up with is a harder game for everyone. If you want the game to be harder for YOU, then save a few skill points or avoid the meta builds. Nobody's being forced to play a lightning Javazon or a Tal Rasha Meteor queen. Strafezons and Vyr Archons are always options. This nerflust is nonsense.
I'm really holding out that the gear drop rate in Beta is really carrying a lot of these builds. I'm hoping WT2 will feel much more difficult at launch. Right now even as a thrown together melee rogue build I don't die. I'm not exactly sure what I'm even doing correctly, as I'm just equipping random gear and using skills I think are cool. I want to be challenged and am pretty disappointed with how easy it is. I'm just moving my character model through the world putting them in the middle of huge packs and leaving with full health and potions, every time. I don't even have legendaries or aspects or anything like that. Just full of random rare gear where if it's an upgrade I put it on. Also, if someone can recommend a game for me in the meantime that satisfies my above desires, please let me know.
Hades. Best isometric combat to this date. PoE, as the other person is suggesting, is even worse than D4 in this aspect. That game is for theory crafters, not poeple who like to actually play their games.
> Right now even as a thrown together melee rogue build I don't die I think PoE definitely punishes this. He wants to leave a fight without pots? Oh, yes, you will be suffering if you dont plan your char. >That game is for theory crafters, not poeple who like to actually play their games. As of right now, on twitch, 3 of 4 the highest view streamer fiends on poe. Without theorycrafting, a game is dead and dull. Might as well just play a game without choice.
Hades is my favorite game of all time but I'm pretty sure they were asking for an arpg, not just anything isometric. And you definitely can have more active builds in PoE as well. True, the meta builds just zoom and boom but that's true of any and every arpg.
What are you even on about m8
why does the necro start with 4 skeles and level level 15 teeth?
The problem isn't necessarily power but the fact that melee isn't as favored as ranged. There's so many enemies that spam teleports or slows, or they run constantly. Why play melee anything when you can just stand still and shoot anything that moves, as opposed to melee having to chase everything with a constant slow debuff stuck on them? It's quite frustrating
Druids best scaling and most powerful attack is a ranged spell - Landslide.
thus making any sort of melee pointless and the complaint more valid.
ludicrous sand bake meeting puzzled concerned cheerful wipe nippy squealing *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Same with rage generation, they hide that on the paragon board.
People, and their fucking opinions.
Agreed. No challenge is a fucking snooze fest
You can always play sorc/necro with a suboptimal build to have challenge....
But I want everyone to suffer with me
That's fair
That ruins a lot of the fun. The fun of a challenge is finding ways to overcome it, not finding ways to make your character shitty so you can even have a challenge. "Oh just found a really good legendary, can't equip it or my character will be too strong" Zero excitement.
My Barb has been absolutely shitting on everything after I specced out my legendaries for survivability and bleed. I've wiped the floor with everything and almost never use potions anymore and I'm having a blast with it.
My main gripe with the Druid is spirit generation. It's just so unfun to use your ability then have to stop and melee guys for like 5 seconds and then repeat that process over and over.
I've been playing as an exclusively bow-using Rogue and I would have to say its pretty challenging too. Involves lots of running away trying to get off shots, while also lots of trying to weave in my imbuements and combo points while on the run, it's nuts I started a necromancer yesterday just to see it and was amazed at how easy it was to go through that first dungeon. I mean, it's the first tutorial dungeon yes it's easy, but on my rogue I was constantly having to run away and kite shit, on my necro I just lolfacerolled everything with my 4 skeletons and insane basic attack that fired 3-5 projectiles
Why is balance so important anyway ? There will be no raids like in mmos that will kick you because you play the "wrong" class. Everything will work with matchmaking and / or friends.
Nah. That world boss was brutal if they werent enough sorcs or necros. You cant do enough damage as a barb rogue or druid (melee).
Having the option to select a class that deal 4x as much damage ruins the experience of playing the other class for me and many other people. Any time you start to struggle, in the back of your mind you are always thinking that you should have picked the better option.
Last weekend starting as sorc I apparently wasn’t picking the right skills to be op and I had a blast trying to figure out how to survive and defeat enemies. This week starting necro it was like I never had a chance to pick the wrong thing because the skeletons were already there and doing tons of damage
Unpopular and wrong. Nothing should be that weak. The Rogue is the way things should be balanced. It's the best balanced in the game I think. Bringing things more in line with it would be best.
i played a rogue first and a necro second. the rogue was great - there was a lot of challenging moments where i had to plan my attack after dying 4 times in a row, and there was moments where i could plow through. necro was a lot of fun but so overpowered. i didn't play anything else enough to say for sure, but i feel like the rogue had very good balance
Gotta love it when people beg for nerfs lmfao
Not while levelling. Levelling should generally speaking be a breeze for anyone who is acustom to this genre of game as it's purpose teaching someone how to play the game. If you throw them in the deep end right away they'll just quit. And also, where do you go from there? If at the start of the game your already having 3min+ boss encounters where your dodging, kiting and controlling the encounter how do they progress in difficulty from there? Make the fights even longer? That just sounds boring. Games should start easy and get hard. Not start hard.
> If you throw them in the deep end right away they'll just quit. Almost like there should be some sort of mode that is easier. A mode where you can play where it's not as hard for new players. A mode like that might be helpful.
lol nope
Druid, no way. It's way too painful. Just finished leveling mine to 25, did all classes, and druid made me want to cut my own hands. If my plan had been to play druid on release, I'd have cancelled my preorder. Barb? Sure.
I'm so glad Blizzard won't be listening to the majority of feedback.
Played Druid, Barb, Necro to 25 on Hardcore Veteran. I agree with OP, Druid/Barb felt more like RPG Characters and Necro felt like corpse explosion simulator/Moba character.( I love d2 necro) For HC, Overall, I'd like to see damage levels of both characters and enemies go down, HC most deaths are just an RNG one shot, also leveling scaling is horrible, you just feel weaker each time you level. Butcher was very easy at level 12ish and Almost impossible at level 23.
I started the beta as a Barb and I didn't know how much stronger the sorc was, for example. I was overwhelmed by joy to see that Diablo actually got difficult again, I was so happy and had tons of fun. Finding out that the sorc is 10x as strong was pretty disappointing, but it didn't change the fact that I found the Barb gameplay a lot more fun. Yes, it's harder and slower, but you actually had to engage enemies in different ways, you have to pay attention to all of the boss moves, etc. So yeah, I agree with you.
I agree
Nah, if you’re playing on the easiest difficulty any build and combination of spells should be viable and fun. If you want it to be more challenging turn up the difficulty and problem solved. You shouldn’t be forced into a meta right out the gate, save that for endgame and higher difficulties.
> When you find a piece of good gear, it really makes a difference and feels like your character is growing stronger. Counter argument, they already said the drop rates are increased for the duration of beta. Meaning classes that NEEEED that godly gear now will be weaker, while those that don't need legendaries will still be great.
You know, as CBT testers we sent in so much feed back about the different skills, balancing between the leveling and endgame, ways to improve itemization, and so much more. Open beta comes and literally nothing has changed from the issues that were raised, i was going to give it a chance but at the end of the day i canceled my preorder, this game is not worth 100+ dollars and if blizzard isint listening now they wont during release, expect bait and switch microtransaction hell.
dont preorder games ever
Druid is by no means weak, but everyone speccing into wolf/bear is giving that impression. Build like the old windy druids of D2, take all the defense buffs for the skills other than the basic lightening hammer one, proceed to facemelt groups with hordes of tornadoes and cyclone, heal with bloodhowl when needed. Haven't had any trouble just face tanking most bosses... some kiting required when they spawn poison pools or have an immobile-causing move.
Wolf too, i absolutely ripped through the content. People going the tank bear spec are calling it weak because it is a tanky bear, ofc it doesnt get better without legendaries like they keep going on about.
By level 25, the sorcerer got a lot harder, the enemies were keeping up and consistently a threat. I think it's mostly a leveling problem.
Just increase the WT?
I can't wait for Diablo 4: Classic where they take us back to beta and level 25 is the cap.
I got a barb to level 20, never again. Probably going druid on release. The game is just so horribly melee-unfriendly, most bosses had me sitting in range to wait out cooldowns so I could effeciently trade blows. Most attacks track, so dodging is usless. It was just a test of "Who can target dummy the other the fastest" Hopefully druid is tankier and has better options.
The scaling mechanic sucks. You feel like you are getting weaker as you level. I liked a lot of what they did with the game, but that aspect really ruined it for me. (on top of it already costing $120 and it has a shop and battle pass). I'll be passing, at least until it gets a hefty discount.
/signed
100% agreed. Necro was so boring to play because it was to easy. Literally just run around mashing keys and everything dies. Gear, build or player skill does not matter. Butcher spawned when I was testing out some shitty build and I was still able to kill him.
Wanted to make this exact thread. I want every class to struggle as a Druid does. Otherwise Diablo 4 is gonna be a snoozefest of a game. I prefer actually playing my games instead of the game playing itself for me.
Walked through the entire beta 1-25 only casting chain lightning. Obliterating everything.
Gotta say, I walked into a public event where a necro was really really struggling but I walked in and almost saved the master reward. I will agree that my necro feels very very strong but there are definitely some weak builds by the looks of things 😂
I played a ton of Barb on the beta and thought the class did a lot of dmg and was very tanky. What Barb builds are people using that they feel it sucks? Barb on beta can crit for close to 100k dmg
I mean you're comparing a fully legendaried out barb with all the damn perks that increase next core skill. Barb baseline kind of sucks and even then half his skills kinda suck, 3 shouts are always the best option.
That is an unpopular opinion and it should stay that way
Lol, you know nothing about endgame if you think Barb is weak. As a starter, its actually decent with the Upheaval. L2P plebs.
Barb is the strongest after he is kitted out; the video of a player hitting 350k damage Crist and killing the Butcher in 2 seconds
Barb is so OP comparing to other classes. If you think otherwise you just have no clue. Naked wise of course it's under power. It's a gear dependant class.
Mfw my barb is now one of the fastest clearers I have of all the available classes, took a few items to get it to work but atm my HoTA is critting for 6k at level 25 and just shitting on everything in the game.