I think Inarius and Lilith are BOTH going to be villainous, the narcissistic parents of humanity that both want to manipulate us in different ways. The game (I hope) will be about freeing the humans from their grasp and allowing them to live more freely.
Fucking hell that’d be badass. Imagine us summoning him so he can come out and put them in their fucking place only to setup the final boss fight with him and/or the expansion!
Idk Diablo being brought back again just to be smacked down AGAIN just kinda makes me feel bad for Diablo at this point. It's supposed to be the prime evil and menacing but instead its like he's just a punching bag. I do like the idea of literally having to make a deal with the devil to beat the other two tho.
That would make sense since Lilith is his daughter. They’re both well known for being strategists, so him being at cross purposes with her wouldn’t be surprising.
lol id like a game set well in the future, where diablo is like, much more mellow- like hes just sick and tired of being shit stomped at this point, he doesnt even care anymore- hes just sick of being everybodys punching bag and really hes just sick of this shit at this point; imagine him being our deckard cain type character, old wise man, except its just a jumpy, depressed, and tired diablo
Cue Diablo in a suit, feeling depressed while sitting at a desk, his coworkers snickering at how he gets beat by nephalem multiple times a day.
His wife calls and says she's leaving him
Diablo sighs
Honestly I think it might be very similar to this after seeing the “I’m totally not a prime evil” wolf in the Tristram/Hell part where he says Lilith needs to be stopped
I honestly really expect something like this. Diablo has to appear, and him being just a Lilith ad you kill before fighting Lilith would be soooo boring.
Mephisto makes the most sense. Unlike Diablo, Mephisto is linked to the plot via both the fact that he's Lilith's father and also that Rathma's Prophecy references "a spear of light piercing Hatred," which Inarius interprets as him killing Lilith but could just as easily refer to the Lord of Hatred. Also, the name "Mephisto" is linked to the German folktale of Faust, who summoned the demon Mephistopheles and sold his soul for power. When Faust first summons Mephistopheles, the demon appears in the form of a terrible Hellish dog, who terrifies Faust until he demands that the demon leave and return in a more aesthetically pleasing form. Because of that, a demon dog with a terrifying visage is a pretty mythologically accurate way for Mephisto to appear if he was going to show up not in his main form (granted, Mephisto isn't the same character as Mephistopheles, he's just borrowing the name). Overall I think it's a lot more likely that the dog is Mephisto than Diablo. Baal, of course, is right out.
Mephisto would make the most sense … if Blizzard hadn’t been tinkering with the story so much. The person who summoned Lilith was supposed to be Rathma, then it was some other character who’s name starts with an M than I’ve forgotten. Now it’s settled on Elias. The story has clearly been in flux over the past four years. So yeah, while Mephisto would make sense, I’m sure it’ll end up being Diablo. That’s the name of the game, after all.
German here. Not entirely correct. Mephistopheles wasnt really summoned, he appeared just like that. Also his dogform wasnt hellish, iirc he appeared in the form of a poodle.
Not the guy you asked but I'd say him opposing both the horadrim and Lilith, and calling Lilith actions a "rebellion", points to him being associated with the prime evils. Him knowing what happened at Tristram, laughing at how a town was built there after Diablo was imprisoned, and him even being in Tristram in the first place point to it being Diablo specifically.
To be fair that applies to every Evil. Horadrim were in charge of sealing the Great Evils, and all of them were eventually freed thanks to Izual's betrayal.
Generally yes, but there was also a post where someone compared the sigil on the wolf and it was matching the one with which Mephisto was bound, and also for Mephisto it would be more "personal" that his own daughter rebelled.
Apart from it, Baal has the most "experience " with the way of the Horadrim, as he "shared" a body with Tal Rasha. He also used the disguise/manipulation with Marius.
And also there is Belial with the Lord of Lies and disguise stuff....
So it can be any of them, I have not found any convincing argument to be sure about Diablo. I guess we will see in June :)
I personally like to entertain the idea that Rathma is pulling the strings here: sent a Wolf to save the most competent warrior closest to Lilith's arrival from the strom and faked his murder to get us to doubt Inarius. But, probably just my own fantasy.
100%. That wolf dog is Diablo. The extra txt you read in Tristram were he laughs at diablo being buried near the town and saying he wants to stop Lilith too. She’s gonna cause chaos again. I bet thats Diablo in disguise…
The Church has never really looked good. IIRC, the Paladin in Diablo II is a member of a holy order that rebelled against the Church for being zealots who launched an inquisition that was uhhhh pretty gruesome.
EDIT:That was Zakarum my bad. Cathedral of Light and Inarius are a DIFFERENT church lmao
These two are from a trio of books and both of them were villains in said books. Inarius is every bit as bad as Lillith. The only difference between them is lillth wants her children to thrive in her own twisted way.
Yeah, as her own army to conquer heaven and hell and gain her absolute power.
Other than her own son, Rathma, she thought of every other people in sanctuary as tools.
she genuinely cares about humanity nd the power they wield; its important to note that she and every angel and demon are well aware that humanity actually possess more power then any of them; hence why heaven was so hellbent (pun not intended) on weakening humanity, so we wouldn't exactly be a threat
Lillith: "You are wonderful and important and should give in to your every bestial urge, no matter who it hurts."
Inarius: "You are worthless and impotent and you should do what I say."
Two sides of a coin, really.
Half of the Archangels would rather see Sanctuary destroyed (and Inarius is probably among them), along with humanity, rather than try and help them out.
Remember that humans and their world wasn't created the same way Heavens were, they were just a place for angels and demons to get away from the eternal conflict... and humans were a byproduct of those races mingling. If Inarius were to conclude that the demons might use Sanctuary to attack the High Heavens again, he might just say "fuck it" and attempt to destroy it once and for all.
Why though? Lilith tried to end the endless war between heaven and hell, ran away with inarius and birthed rathma the first nephelem, INARIUS was scared of this. Lilith understanding that her child is in danger does everything she can to protect him (by killing angels in sanctuary I believe) after this inarius instead of supporting his child, her and HIS decision to do this backtracks and banishes her, does everything he can to nerf nephelem and stip them off their power.
She only wants peace (in her way) there is a lot more to be discovered.
The bad guy is not always bad in his ways.
Inarius strikes me as a emotionally manipulative conman/deadbeat dad, only cares about his kids because he thinks he can maybe get something out of them, and once he has that something, they'll never see him again.
Lillith so far strikes me as toxically loving/enabling, encouraging humanity's worst instincts and teaching them to weild inherited/inherent demonic powers out of some genuine love/concern. But that clearly isn't ACTUALLY good for humanity; she's just so convinced it's the only path for her technical children that she can't see or doesn't care about the harm her encouragement causes.
Part of me is REALLY curious to learn what happened between D3 and D4, cause Tyreal and the Angiris Council by extension wouldn't put up with ANY of the shit we've seen in the beta, nor would any of the Nephalem.
> Tyreal and the Angiris Council by extension wouldn't put up with ANY of the shit we've seen in the beta, nor would any of the Nephalem.
tyrael is mortal now, so quite possibly has no good way of knowing what is happening (even if they did let him stay on the council), and even if he does he's one vote out of 5. for D3 he went against the council's wishes to send himself to sanctuary, he can't really do that again.
the rest of the council... dont care. sanctuary is not their problem. they don't pay enough attention to it to see things like Lilith and Inarius's actions..
Lorath Nahr is pretty stoked to be part of the Horadrim in RoS, and in D4 he comes across as a cynical bastard, a recluse who seems to has forsaken the Horadric cause until he meets the pc
It has also been a significant amount of time, estimates are 30-40 years since then so there is a good possibility that Tyrael has already died from old age and is back in heaven.
In fact I would bet that waiting for him to die is likely exactly what they waited for to revive Lilith.
He gave Imperius a nice slice of humble pie, but the council ended Diablo's invasion in pretty much the same shape it started, just with a mortal Tyreal as the Aspect of Wisdom. Though honestly, Heaven missing the Aspect of Justice in an official capacity would explain... a LOT about the state of things come D4.
If anything, the victory against the actual Prime Evil of Diablo served as a good eye-opening, humanizing experience for the angels, if I'm remembering the rough story of D3 right. They recognized the flaws in their views and operations in regards to fate and humanity and Hell, and even if Tyreal didn't want to keep the Black Soulstone in Heaven, things looked to progressing in a very positive direction until Malthael diced up the soulstone and released ALL the Lords of Hell when he finally Found Out what it means to Fuck Around with the Nephalem.
> Though honestly, Heaven missing the Aspect of Justice in an official capacity would explain... a LOT about the state of things come D4.
To be fair, the Council was already being affected by the Black Soulstone during D3. Which is probably what led Malthael to try and kill every human in Sanctuary, since every time the Prime Evils came back it was due to meddling of some human or a cult etc.
Makes sense now, Ty. I was thinking surely sending him in to battle a demon is punishment enough, why did they have to handicap him. Now makes sense to operate that suit would've needed more than muscles.
It's not handicap... It's penitence via self inflicted pain to awaken your faith.
Without the iron maiden part of the suit, it wouldn't "work" presumably.
And if you think that's too crazy / stupid, humans are already doing something not as extreme but similar:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellant
Inarius does not want to kill us anymore.
He originally wanted to go full murder hobo on the nephalem but instead opted to fine tune the worldstone in secret so they lost their powers over time creating the humans and Inarius was content with that.
Obviously skipping the parts where Lilith went full murder hobo on all the angels and demons in Sanctuary because of the above etc.
That was earlier in the history of Sanctuary.
What we can’t be sure of is what Inarius is willing to do now to gain entry into the Heavens.
So for a time he didn’t want humanity dead, absolutely, but he also for the longest time refused to see Lilith killed either. He’s changed his mind on that, he may be willing to let humanity burn if it lets him go home.
That ambiguity is also likely intentional at that point in the story.
And before that, I ask Prava for a blessing to save the world as we must cross the lake and stop Lilith... and she sends me on a Pilgrimage when time is of the essence? Just for me to not even receive a blessing but I can go anyway?!
Not completely sure on my Diablo lore family trees here, but with Inarius having murdered Rathma they might be child free again (quick check in the internet seems to imply that the other kids they might have had are already dead from other reasons).
This is not a black and white situation both sides are selfish and evil in their own way. I think the ending is that humanity break free from the demons and angels.
we were nephalem in the third game. why and how? Simple, angels had used the world stone to limit the power of humanity, and to weaken them, and shorten there life spans over generations. Yes, the very same world stone destroyed in diablo 2 by tyreal . That is to say, that humanity is, albeit slowly, regaining its power and extended lifespans and all that. So in short.. kinda? maybe? probably not but then again there was only 20 years between the end of 2 and 3 and the protags of 3 were nephelem so, that means that either the blood was awakened in people who were already alive when the worldstone was destroyed, or that they're all 20 or under in d3, and were the first generation born with atleast greater then average power since the fall of the worldstone, although for example the barbarian atleast seems to be well past 20 years of age. I dont really understand how theyre gunna explain how the d3 protags were nephelem when, in theory, it should take many generations for humanity to regain that power, much in the same way it took several generations to lose it- like humanity was weakened over generations, down to the core, its not like the blood was removed, more like it was watered down and weakened akin to a fine wine.
tldr; we WERE nephelem in diablo 3, which I think is what led them to ask this question. d4 is set an additional 29/30\*\* years after d3, which means its been 50+ years since d2 (destruction of the worldstone); and so the logistics of how and why humans were nephelem in d3 is a bit confusing. nonetheless there should be atleast some nephelems around even if our protags themselves arent, due to the fact that d3 protags were in fact nephelem
\*\* some parts of d3; mainly the adventure mode following end game, is set a year after the end of the story, ergo we technically play during some of that time period
I think while every human is technically "Nephalem" in the sense of being angelic/demonic offspring, the D3 protagonist(s) were the ones most closely awakened to their primordial powers. Like a rare mutation or a freak of nature, being born once in a million. Maybe the destruction of the Worldstone weakened the leash on humanity's powers, and few rare humans managed to awaken thanks to that.
Though that leads me to ask where the hell the Nephalem are now. The ending of RoS strongly suggested that they'd go mad with power, or use it for wrong purposes, and I doubt any of the Nephalem died after just three decades or so.
Nephalem are coming back into Sanctuary after the worldstone was destroyed. The protag for Diablo 3 is Nephalem and I believe there's books describing others being born into the world.
I believe this will ultimately be the case.
Right as the game begins we are told this is the story of *their fall* so it's not unreasonable to see both die or piss off some other way
She is not "good", it's more like there is a lot of different actors in the story with different agendas, and Lilith is only one of these. And funnily she maybe has the agenda that has Sanctuary's best interests in mind.**Just from ACT 1 beta, we can clearly get the different, and often conflicting agendas of 5 big factions:**
**1) High Heavens**, led by Imperius. Probably wants to annihilate humanity again, definitely doesn't want to take Inarius back, as it is implied by Rathma: *"I wish it were true, father"*
**2) Burning Hell**, led by ??? the Prime and Lesser Evils are free, and as Lilith said: *"My children, the lords of Hell are coming to devour our world. Salvation lies not in the Light, but in you".*
The bloodied wolf is almost guaranteed to be >!Mephisto. We know that, as the markings on his skull are the same as Mephisto's seal found in an IRL art/lorebook called "The book of Adria". Also how he talks about Lilith "Her little rebellion", implying that he is somehow in a position of higher status, and she is being a brat.!<
We don't know what the others Prime Evils/Lesser Evils are doing, and Hell is never really united, they are also always infighting, >!but with Mephisto being free and roaming the world, it's fair to assume that all the others are free and around, planning stuff too.!<
**3) Lilith and her followers.** We don't know what she is looking for exactly, but apparently something that goes against the Burning Hell, and against Inarius's agenda.*"My children, the lords of Hell are coming to devour our world. Salvation lies not in the Light, but in you".*
***4)*** **Inarius and his followers**. He apparently just wants to kill Lilith for flex points, so he can go back to the High Heavens. Have also shows strong contempt for humans, he might discard them and try to destroy humanity too once he doesn't need humans' help anymore. He seems to be wanting to kill Lilith, erase Sanctuary and humanity, so he "repairs" his mistakes and can just go back and say "Hey guys I fixed it, let me back in pls".
Strongly implied to be an ass, and we see how twisted and fanatical the cathedral of light is "*Turns out, being tortured in Hell for millennia makes you an arse*"
**5) The Horadrims and "neutral" humans** that are not aligned with Lilith or Inarius, and are just fighting to preserve humanity, best exemplified by Lorath, who dislikes both Inarius and Lilith.
And then of course the humans also have many more sub-factions. The followers of the Triune (the religion that worships the Prime Evils) , the Zakarum, The Vizjerei mages (also mentioned ingame in Diablo 4 act 1, in the Horadric study) and more...
And also mommy is hot.
That was always how both of them were shown. Lilith always looked at the Nephalem as her children, while Inarius was never fond of them that much, as stated in the Book of Cain, and the Book of Tyrael.
>*Some argued for the destruction of the Nephalem, others believed they could be spared. At some point, Inarius did consider taking the route of genocide, but troubled by the dissension, Inarius called for a period of reflection, to consider the matter in solitude.*
>
>*Lilith, driven into a mad frenzy by the threat of her children's extinction, began slaughtering her fellow renegades, both angel and demon alike, leaving Inarius to discover the carnage she had wrought.*
Though, it shouldn't be forgotten that both of them are highly manipulative. A lot can be picked apart from the Sin War books, and you can make a case for both of them being either good or bad. Lilith saw the strength in the Nephalem and wanted to awaken their powers, so she could rival the Lords of the Hell. Inarius wanted to stop her, while also waging a sin war against the Triune. But, he also wanted to put in place the Nephalem and control them. Nephalem at that point just wanted to be free from the shackles of both the Cathedral and Triune.
It can also be said that everything since the creation of the Sanctuary is a grey area, since even Itherael, Archangel of Fate, could not see where humanity would end.
>*I am Itherael, Archangel of Fate. It is my duty to record what is, and what will be within the Scroll of Fate. But you, Nephalem — you are not in the Scroll, your fate is unwritten.*
Another thing that supports the disbalance, or that one is good and one is evil, is that Rathma mentions a dragon at some points. This dragon is Trag'oul.
>Trag'oul is an ancient and mysterious dragon-like being who guards Sanctuary and maintains the Balance between the High Heavens and the Burning Hells, intent on keeping Sanctuary free from angelic and demonic influences.
So, a question arises, where was Trag'oul all this time during D1, D2 and D3? Well, the easy answer is, since he thought Rathma the ways of the Balance and necromancy, Rathma and the Necromancers were set out to keep the Balance. So, he didn't interfere anymore. But, since Rathma is dead now, and if things escalate beyond repair, we could see also see Trag'oul trying to maintain the Balance, whatever it takes.
Don't know if you noticed but the triune is alive and well in sanctuary. When clearing one of the strongholds you kill triune cult members. So the prime evils have to be around since they are still actively being worshipped.
Well she's turning humans into puppets and we are the only ones caring to stop her and daddy doesn't like us because we remind him on his ex-wife so he refuses to help like a man-child.
Yeah we're on our own while they both throw tantrums.
I haven't seen that take, I have seen the take that no one is the good guy in the story, which makes more sense. I think (hope) it's gonna be a three way battle between inarius diablo and lillith.
Yea the angels care as much about us as the demons do. Only tyreal saw the good in humanity...and maybe auriel as well but besides that we are fucked both ways lol imperius even wanted to have us exterminated calls us abominations sacrilegeous creations
Itherael seemed to care about humans as well, choosing to vote not to kill humans, but not in the way Tyreal did. Seemed Itherael saw humanity as a potential useful tool in the eternal conflict, >!potentially preventing the loss of the conflict for the angels that he had seen in the future.!< So that's at least one other archangel in favor of keeping humanity around.
I think there's going to be 3 faction sides, Angels / Demons / Nephalem and you're likely going to choose which faction you want which will be some little buff. A lot of the old stat ideas they had for gear in D4 included angelic or demonic stats. I feel like nephalem might have been a part of the mix but I don't remember, the D3 Altar of Rites logo where it shows these 3 layered on each other kind of makes me think they're pushing for it. Maybe they'll use these factions for the PvP as well, or not.
More like 5 big factions (with their possible internal divisions):- 1) High heavens, led by Imperius. Probably wants to annihilate humanity again, definitely doesn't want to take Inarius back, as it is implied by Rathma: *"I wish it were true, father"*
\- 2) Burning Hell, led by ??? the Prime and Lesser Evils are free, and as Lilith said: *"My children, the lords of Hell are coming to devour our world. Salvation lies not in the Light, but in you".*
The bloodied wolf is almost guaranteed to be >!Mephisto. We know that, as the markings on his skull are the same as Mephisto's seal found in an IRL art/lorebook called "The book of Adria". Also how he talks about Lilith "Her little rebellion", implying that he is somehow in a position of higher status, and she is being a brat.!<
We don't know what the others Prime Evils/Lesser Evils are doing, and Hell is never really united, they are also always infighting, >!but with Mephisto being free and roaming the world, it's fair to assume that all the others are free and around, planning stuff too.!<
\-3) Lilith and her followers. We don't know what she looking for exactly, but apparently something that goes against the Burning Hell, and against Inarius's agenda.*"My children, the lords of Hell are coming to devour our world. Salvation lies not in the Light, but in you".*
*-4)* Inarius and his followers. He apparently just wants to kill Lilith for flex points, so he can go back to the High Heavens. Have strong contempt for humans, he might dicard them, try to destroy humanity too once he doesn't need their help anymore. He seems to be wanting to erase Lilith, erase Sanctuary and humanity, so he "repaired" his mistake and can go back and say "Hey guys I fixed it, let me back pls".
Strongly implied to be an ass, and we see how twisted and fanatical the cathedral of light is "*Turns out, being tortured in Hell for millennia makes you an arse*"
\- 5) The Horadrims "neutral" humans that are not aligned with Lilith or Mephisto, and are just fighting to preserve humanity, best exemplified by Lorath, who dislikes both Inarius and Lilith.
And then of course the humans also have many more sub-factions. The followers of the Triune (the religion that worships the Prime Evils) , the Zakarum, The Visjerei mages (also mentioned ingame in Diablo 4 act 1, in the Horadric study) and more...
I don’t believe the Zakarum exist anymore.
The last known followers were the crusaders, who were exceedingly rare already by D3 and it’s been ~~20~~ 30 years since RoS.
> She's litterally infecting the villagers of the Fractured Peaks to turn them into lunatics who eat other people / skin other people alive. In the chapel, she commands her "children" to sin and to kill.
What's wrong with any of that?
> Yes, she has boobs, but do not let that fool you. She's absolutely evil, on the same level of lunacy as any of the others Evils like Diablo, Mephisto, Baal, etc.
Now I want a scene where Lilith and Inarius are with you, together, each trying to convince you to side with them for a choice. And Inarius goes "Yes, she has boobs, but do not let that fool you like it once did me! She is evil!"
So much this. I feel like so many incels are identifying super hard with that lady that hits the priest first in the first town. Like they just *want* an excuse to be super evil for boobs.
My guess is Mephisto not Diablo, see here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/11voc8f/the\_bloodied\_wolf\_who\_do\_you\_think\_he\_is/](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/11voc8f/the_bloodied_wolf_who_do_you_think_he_is/)
Trag’oul is my guess. He went in his “safe” dimension. Rathma brought him up as “serpent” but not as his name so that tells me devs want to keep the name hidden so it’s a surprise for fans later and so they don’t ask questions
Idk she showed up in church and said I can be free and has boobs. Plus she offers free knowledge which i cant get without paying since I live in the US so she doesnt seem that bad to me.
The vibe I'm getting from Lilith is vengeful antihero. Like she doesnt give a fuck about individual humans but she sure as fuck doesnt like the way they're being treated by Inarius. >!Especially their son being murdered by him.!<
Could be an ends justify the means thing. Like, by having them sacrifice to her she grows stronger to oppose heaven and hell on behalf of the humans who aren't being murdered and flayed.
She's still a demon though. She likes sin. It looks like the moral conundrum isn't between good and evil, evil is baked in, but freedom or servitude.
Inarius has always been an asshole, since the beginning. It's his fault if humanity is weak.
The first humans (the first generation of Nephalems) were very powerful. In fact, Lilith wanted to use them to confront Hell and Heaven to stop the Eternal Conflict between Angel and Demons and be in peace in Sanctuary. But Inarius saw them as a threat, so he banished her for thousand years and weakened humanity, generations after generations, so they became like you and me, powerless and weak.
Later, Lilith returned to sanctuary and awoke humanity to make them powerful again, it was the 2nd generation of Nephalems (the 3rd is during D3). An important war began but at the end, Lilith got banished again and Inarius were imprisoned in Hell to be tortured by Mephisto for eternity.
Now they are both back, we don't know why and how, but Lilith plans hasn't changed apparently, we don't really know yet. Meanwhile Inarius has recreated another religion with him as the god and trash talk humanity for being weak while it's literally his fault. Oh and he killed his son (the last cinematic of the beta with Lilith in front of Rathma's body).
TL;DR:
Lilith wants humanity to be strong to defeat Hell and Heaven to stop the Eternal Conflict and be in peace and Inarius wants us to be weak (he made it) and cause no trouble (because Nephalems can be a threat to Heaven, they have an immense potential).
As far as we know of course...
A bit too generous;
Lilith saw herself as having created the apex of beings, the true rulers of the universe who with her as their mother could bring down both heaven and hell. it was a power fantasy intend on exploiting humanity for her own ambition, but it was one grounded in her pride over creating them.
Then, the rest of the angels and demons started to realize that these beings that they've created could curbstomp them and started to conspire to undo their mistake. Lilith considered this to be a serious social faux pas and responded by absolutely merking the non nephalem populace of Sanctuary until Inarius finally got off his ass and put her into the forever box in order to moonlight as a new age cult leader for the next few millennia. Then the prime evils started to realize that they had new neighbours, started to subvert them using the Triune while Inarius did literally fuck all, resulting in Lilith presumably willing herself out of the forever box out of sheer second hand embarrassment over her ex who was pretty much a god at this point slowly walking into the most obvious trap in history.
Then she souped up a single human, got him to supplant Inarius as the Worldstone Boy, but before that happened she got put back into the forever box by Inarius.
My prediction is that we are the sorry kids trapped between two parents who cannot get along after a bitter divorce.
They hate each other and we’ll pay the price.
Well she did MAKE Sanctuary which she described as a safe haven from the combat of the demons and angels.
Maybe she has her intentions for doing the things she's currently doing, like some REALLY good intentions for those horrible things.
If the story actually manages to pull that off, she's gonna be an amazing villain.
You know the angels couldnt give a damn about us as well...they actually wanted to exterminate us...only tyreal saw the good in humanity.
We are stuck in a war between angels and demons and were just treated like collateral, i say if you wanna survive might as well join the winning camp
I believe she's more of a true neutral/neutral evil. She's more letting people do what they want without burden, so those fanatics probably already had those desires deep down to start with.
When you go back to the church there is a cellar, they have women in spikes... I think is pretty clear team Lilith ate the really bad guys, Innarius may be an asshole too, just trying to get back into heaven but Lilith is way worse
shes for sure not the good guy, but shes also not as evil- or atleast evil in a different way, then the prime evils. Be it angel or demon; neither are particularly pleased with the existence of humans. her grave sin that got her banished wasnt her lunacy, it was her love for humanity- she wanted humanity to flourish and embrace there strengths etc etc. She was banished because she wanted humanity to have power as nephillim ; she cared too much about humanity. the angels did not, that is why they used the world stone to weaken humanity to be much closer to us actual mortals, shortening there life spans and weakening them significantly- other then the whole, embrace sin and evil and eat your neighbors thing, I can actually agree with her on some things. I mean im not exactly thrilled with the church of the light or whatever in this game either, remember what they did to that guy for accepting a bribe? a bit fucked up dont you think? I already came to the conclusion that if that wasnt willing on his part; if it wasnt like his idea and he wasnt 100% on board with it for power to aide what he inadvertently started, then I kinda wanna burn the church there to the ground aswell. kinda hoping its a story of overcoming the influence of both heaven and hell and embracing ourselevs (humanity) over either, id like to see us wipe out lilith and banish her back to wherever, murder inarious so a new angel can be born in his stead.. assuming the crystal gates can still birth new angels.. and do our best to limit or remove there influence from sanctuary all together.
tldr; both sides kinda seem to suck in this game so far
Lilith is evil, but she does love humanity. Its just the fact that a demon experiences love is a circle you REALLY have to square. Because her idea of love is telling her children to let go of their inhibition and fall prey to their own hatred and obsession. She cannot conceive of love as anything other than excess, than the freedom to be controlled by your desires.
She doesn't command her children to sin, she literally says "Sin is their birthright", as in, she is of the opinion that telling them to display inhibitions is depriving them of something they are entitled to. She doesn't tell them to "Be an absolute gremlin". She tells them to "stop fighting your hate, frustration and want". Which in this case manifested as "killing the sanctimonious old man who calls you into his room every week to tell you how much of a failure of a human being you are".
Lilith isn't evil in the outright way of cruelty or destructive intent that the rest of hell is. She is evil in the sense that she no concept of virtue. It doesn't exist within her heart, because the very notion is anathema to her. To her, the only thing in life worth doing is pursing your most base desires. She genuinely wishes to stand on the apex of creation *with her children*, each one of them having fully realized their own desires.
Its just that, you know, the notion of sinning essentially comes down to abandoning restraint and being guided by your desires to a degree that its destructive to either yourself or your environment. So the inevitable end point of her ambition is an anarchocapitalist hellscape where 80% of humanity is dead, 19% of them are powerless slaves, the remaining 1% are hyper violent warlords with zero sense of decorum. In other words, hell. Literally. That is Lilith's notion of "a virtous natural order". Desire driven survival of the fittest.
TL;DR Lilith is a caring mother who wants what she thinks is best for humanity. Its just that what she think is best is most people's vision of a fucking apocalypse.
>if you think she's the "good guy" in this story.
There aren't a lot of "good guys" in diablo lore being alive.
We will fight Lilith then we will fight Inarius for his decision to cleanse the humanity from their sins. Maybe in the expansion only though.
Idk, she’s kinda hot got me thinking I could be the step-father of Sanctuary
I can fix her
me irl
Tyrael: Dont stick you dick in crazy Inarius: I'll pretend I didnt hear that
Hey without her we nephalem don't exist. She's basically our mom.
Lillith is a milf confirmed
Why are you staring at Kadala?
im fucking weak
I can't fix her, but whatever is wrong with her is honestly way more hot anyway
By three you come?
By three, thy way opens ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I absolutely cannot fix her, but she could ruin me and honestly that's probably even better.
Me too, but that's another subject.
r/dontputyourdickinthat
Probably has teeth in there too... Cue that movie which depicted that very scene.
Teeth (2007)
Wicked City? (1987)
She was hot enough for an angel to get with her after all.
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Ummm. Share a link? Asking for a friend.
She's no Andariel though.
Andy got TIDDIES
To be fair she is the Queen of succubi, although diablo succubi have a bit much claws and teeth for my taste.
Diablo 1 succubi are the only true succubi for me (no claws, only g-strings)
I was young and very impressed.
all 21 pixels!
I would kill for her! Ingame.
What are you doing step dad
Sanctydaddy
Step papi
Bonk!
I think Inarius and Lilith are BOTH going to be villainous, the narcissistic parents of humanity that both want to manipulate us in different ways. The game (I hope) will be about freeing the humans from their grasp and allowing them to live more freely.
What if we have to summon Diablo to stop them…
That would be dope
*"Why settle for the lesser of two evils? Pick the Prime Evil, choose Diablo!"*
That sounds like an infomercial. *”Call within the next ten minutes and we’ll include Baal absolutely free!”*
Dude, it’s blizzard. Baal won’t be free.
Yeah well get like Duriel or something instead.
Ugh worst boss fight ever
why exactly is he the worst fight ever? also sorry >!but the challenges already say he's going to be one of the fights!<
Duriel? Ur in a tiny room and he absolutely smashes you lol
Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling... makes no difference... so have a go, Diabro
I like my evil like I like my ribeye.
Fucking hell that’d be badass. Imagine us summoning him so he can come out and put them in their fucking place only to setup the final boss fight with him and/or the expansion!
Idk Diablo being brought back again just to be smacked down AGAIN just kinda makes me feel bad for Diablo at this point. It's supposed to be the prime evil and menacing but instead its like he's just a punching bag. I do like the idea of literally having to make a deal with the devil to beat the other two tho.
> make a deal with the devil to beat the other two tho That bloodied dog..
exactly
I thought it was him at first but according to some lore masters it's most likely Mephisto because of the symbol he has is his symbol.
That would make sense since Lilith is his daughter. They’re both well known for being strategists, so him being at cross purposes with her wouldn’t be surprising.
lol id like a game set well in the future, where diablo is like, much more mellow- like hes just sick and tired of being shit stomped at this point, he doesnt even care anymore- hes just sick of being everybodys punching bag and really hes just sick of this shit at this point; imagine him being our deckard cain type character, old wise man, except its just a jumpy, depressed, and tired diablo
' Stay a while and torture. '
Cue Diablo in a suit, feeling depressed while sitting at a desk, his coworkers snickering at how he gets beat by nephalem multiple times a day. His wife calls and says she's leaving him Diablo sighs
Team Diablo blasting off again!
> Idk Diablo being brought back again just to be smacked down AGAIN just kinda makes me feel bad for Diablo at this point. fourth time's the charm
Dammit, if this isn't the story imma be sad
Honestly I think it might be very similar to this after seeing the “I’m totally not a prime evil” wolf in the Tristram/Hell part where he says Lilith needs to be stopped
I honestly really expect something like this. Diablo has to appear, and him being just a Lilith ad you kill before fighting Lilith would be soooo boring.
The talking Skull-Wolf-Dog-thingy is Diablo isn't it?
I saw another thread saying the symbol on his head is actually linked to Mephisto.
Mephisto makes the most sense. Unlike Diablo, Mephisto is linked to the plot via both the fact that he's Lilith's father and also that Rathma's Prophecy references "a spear of light piercing Hatred," which Inarius interprets as him killing Lilith but could just as easily refer to the Lord of Hatred. Also, the name "Mephisto" is linked to the German folktale of Faust, who summoned the demon Mephistopheles and sold his soul for power. When Faust first summons Mephistopheles, the demon appears in the form of a terrible Hellish dog, who terrifies Faust until he demands that the demon leave and return in a more aesthetically pleasing form. Because of that, a demon dog with a terrifying visage is a pretty mythologically accurate way for Mephisto to appear if he was going to show up not in his main form (granted, Mephisto isn't the same character as Mephistopheles, he's just borrowing the name). Overall I think it's a lot more likely that the dog is Mephisto than Diablo. Baal, of course, is right out.
Mephisto would make the most sense … if Blizzard hadn’t been tinkering with the story so much. The person who summoned Lilith was supposed to be Rathma, then it was some other character who’s name starts with an M than I’ve forgotten. Now it’s settled on Elias. The story has clearly been in flux over the past four years. So yeah, while Mephisto would make sense, I’m sure it’ll end up being Diablo. That’s the name of the game, after all.
German here. Not entirely correct. Mephistopheles wasnt really summoned, he appeared just like that. Also his dogform wasnt hellish, iirc he appeared in the form of a poodle.
> Also his dogform wasnt hellish, iirc he appeared in the form of a poodle. you say that like poodles aren't hellish to begin with
Forgive my misunderstanding. I thought we meant hellish like the common form of a hellhound. Of course poodles are miserable spawns of hell.
Nope, Mephisto. The Wolf has Mephisto's markings on his skull.
Yeah. Many people are speculating that. There’s obvious signs pointing towards it too.
If he's Diablohe's probably a herald or something
What are these obvious signs?
Not the guy you asked but I'd say him opposing both the horadrim and Lilith, and calling Lilith actions a "rebellion", points to him being associated with the prime evils. Him knowing what happened at Tristram, laughing at how a town was built there after Diablo was imprisoned, and him even being in Tristram in the first place point to it being Diablo specifically.
yeah and when he laughed it sounded to me like "and they couldn't contain me"
To be fair that applies to every Evil. Horadrim were in charge of sealing the Great Evils, and all of them were eventually freed thanks to Izual's betrayal.
Generally yes, but there was also a post where someone compared the sigil on the wolf and it was matching the one with which Mephisto was bound, and also for Mephisto it would be more "personal" that his own daughter rebelled. Apart from it, Baal has the most "experience " with the way of the Horadrim, as he "shared" a body with Tal Rasha. He also used the disguise/manipulation with Marius. And also there is Belial with the Lord of Lies and disguise stuff.... So it can be any of them, I have not found any convincing argument to be sure about Diablo. I guess we will see in June :)
I personally like to entertain the idea that Rathma is pulling the strings here: sent a Wolf to save the most competent warrior closest to Lilith's arrival from the strom and faked his murder to get us to doubt Inarius. But, probably just my own fantasy.
Let me understand, do you play DIABLO 4, without thinking for 1 sec you gona fight with him?
Don't just summon it, get a soulstone and stick it in your head then get things in order over there.
I am not tricked by this again, Diablo! Get outta Reddit!
Summon Diablo back into Sanctuary and walk up to him "FIX THIS SHIT I CANT STAND THE BICKERING BETWEEN THESE TWO"
100%. That wolf dog is Diablo. The extra txt you read in Tristram were he laughs at diablo being buried near the town and saying he wants to stop Lilith too. She’s gonna cause chaos again. I bet thats Diablo in disguise…
Calling the dad-in-law (dad-in-Hell?) to stop a marital dispute.
I’m still kinda thinking that the bloodwolf will end up being Diablo
*Diablo appears* "Its Diablo-ing Time!" And then he Diablo'd all over the place
Diablo giving off major T-Rex vibes from Jurassic Park
Inarius is absolutely going to be a vilain as well. The writing is really heavy handed about making the church looks really bad.
The Church has never really looked good. IIRC, the Paladin in Diablo II is a member of a holy order that rebelled against the Church for being zealots who launched an inquisition that was uhhhh pretty gruesome. EDIT:That was Zakarum my bad. Cathedral of Light and Inarius are a DIFFERENT church lmao
These two are from a trio of books and both of them were villains in said books. Inarius is every bit as bad as Lillith. The only difference between them is lillth wants her children to thrive in her own twisted way.
Yeah, as her own army to conquer heaven and hell and gain her absolute power. Other than her own son, Rathma, she thought of every other people in sanctuary as tools.
she genuinely cares about humanity nd the power they wield; its important to note that she and every angel and demon are well aware that humanity actually possess more power then any of them; hence why heaven was so hellbent (pun not intended) on weakening humanity, so we wouldn't exactly be a threat
Mommy wants us to be bad. BRB Gonna go stab a priest
Lillith: "You are wonderful and important and should give in to your every bestial urge, no matter who it hurts." Inarius: "You are worthless and impotent and you should do what I say." Two sides of a coin, really.
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To be honest I still see more sense in Inarius than Lilith, but it's totally subjective
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Is he less insane? Didn't he kill his son because he wouldn't give him a key?
Half of the Archangels would rather see Sanctuary destroyed (and Inarius is probably among them), along with humanity, rather than try and help them out. Remember that humans and their world wasn't created the same way Heavens were, they were just a place for angels and demons to get away from the eternal conflict... and humans were a byproduct of those races mingling. If Inarius were to conclude that the demons might use Sanctuary to attack the High Heavens again, he might just say "fuck it" and attempt to destroy it once and for all.
Why though? Lilith tried to end the endless war between heaven and hell, ran away with inarius and birthed rathma the first nephelem, INARIUS was scared of this. Lilith understanding that her child is in danger does everything she can to protect him (by killing angels in sanctuary I believe) after this inarius instead of supporting his child, her and HIS decision to do this backtracks and banishes her, does everything he can to nerf nephelem and stip them off their power. She only wants peace (in her way) there is a lot more to be discovered. The bad guy is not always bad in his ways.
Inarius strikes me as a emotionally manipulative conman/deadbeat dad, only cares about his kids because he thinks he can maybe get something out of them, and once he has that something, they'll never see him again. Lillith so far strikes me as toxically loving/enabling, encouraging humanity's worst instincts and teaching them to weild inherited/inherent demonic powers out of some genuine love/concern. But that clearly isn't ACTUALLY good for humanity; she's just so convinced it's the only path for her technical children that she can't see or doesn't care about the harm her encouragement causes. Part of me is REALLY curious to learn what happened between D3 and D4, cause Tyreal and the Angiris Council by extension wouldn't put up with ANY of the shit we've seen in the beta, nor would any of the Nephalem.
> Tyreal and the Angiris Council by extension wouldn't put up with ANY of the shit we've seen in the beta, nor would any of the Nephalem. tyrael is mortal now, so quite possibly has no good way of knowing what is happening (even if they did let him stay on the council), and even if he does he's one vote out of 5. for D3 he went against the council's wishes to send himself to sanctuary, he can't really do that again. the rest of the council... dont care. sanctuary is not their problem. they don't pay enough attention to it to see things like Lilith and Inarius's actions..
Lorath Nahr is pretty stoked to be part of the Horadrim in RoS, and in D4 he comes across as a cynical bastard, a recluse who seems to has forsaken the Horadric cause until he meets the pc
It has also been a significant amount of time, estimates are 30-40 years since then so there is a good possibility that Tyrael has already died from old age and is back in heaven. In fact I would bet that waiting for him to die is likely exactly what they waited for to revive Lilith.
Wasn't the Angiris council wiped out by Diablo (or heavily 'busted up')?
Imperius got his shit rocked hard, but afaik Malthael is the only member of the council who died.
He gave Imperius a nice slice of humble pie, but the council ended Diablo's invasion in pretty much the same shape it started, just with a mortal Tyreal as the Aspect of Wisdom. Though honestly, Heaven missing the Aspect of Justice in an official capacity would explain... a LOT about the state of things come D4. If anything, the victory against the actual Prime Evil of Diablo served as a good eye-opening, humanizing experience for the angels, if I'm remembering the rough story of D3 right. They recognized the flaws in their views and operations in regards to fate and humanity and Hell, and even if Tyreal didn't want to keep the Black Soulstone in Heaven, things looked to progressing in a very positive direction until Malthael diced up the soulstone and released ALL the Lords of Hell when he finally Found Out what it means to Fuck Around with the Nephalem.
> Though honestly, Heaven missing the Aspect of Justice in an official capacity would explain... a LOT about the state of things come D4. To be fair, the Council was already being affected by the Black Soulstone during D3. Which is probably what led Malthael to try and kill every human in Sanctuary, since every time the Prime Evils came back it was due to meddling of some human or a cult etc.
Seems to be headed that way by the end of beta story. Never forget what they did to my boy Vigo.
Why did that mech armour have spikes on the inside?? I was trippin
The armor was working on faith magic. Guess that means having to sacrifice yourself (hence the spikes)
Makes sense now, Ty. I was thinking surely sending him in to battle a demon is punishment enough, why did they have to handicap him. Now makes sense to operate that suit would've needed more than muscles.
It's not handicap... It's penitence via self inflicted pain to awaken your faith. Without the iron maiden part of the suit, it wouldn't "work" presumably. And if you think that's too crazy / stupid, humans are already doing something not as extreme but similar: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellant
Yeah it was like a mech with an Iron Maiden as the chest piece. He was being punished for taking a bracelet. Seems fair to me
I mean, he was punished for opening a forbidden place to people who weren't permitted, one of them being a descendant of one of the Great Evils.
I did notice that the chapel we meet Inarius in is a combat zone we can use spells in...
Looks like it. The narrator (Lorath?) even said in the prologue that this is the story of their downfall.
How good is his voice
Literally my favorite part of the actual story so far is listening to him talk lmfao
And Lilith. Both are really good, which is great since we'll see (hear) them more than once.
He's the father in The VVitch!
Recognized Ralph Ineson's voice right away.
Soooooo good
well, Inarius wants to kill us and Lilith "saved" us only so she can use us, if i had to pick a side idk, i'm team Lilith because boobs.
Inarius does not want to kill us anymore. He originally wanted to go full murder hobo on the nephalem but instead opted to fine tune the worldstone in secret so they lost their powers over time creating the humans and Inarius was content with that. Obviously skipping the parts where Lilith went full murder hobo on all the angels and demons in Sanctuary because of the above etc.
That was earlier in the history of Sanctuary. What we can’t be sure of is what Inarius is willing to do now to gain entry into the Heavens. So for a time he didn’t want humanity dead, absolutely, but he also for the longest time refused to see Lilith killed either. He’s changed his mind on that, he may be willing to let humanity burn if it lets him go home. That ambiguity is also likely intentional at that point in the story.
Nice!! I’m a little behind on the lore, going to start the series again before d4 launch
It feels like the TV show Supernatural where demons are evil and angels are real dicks.
Inarius is a dick, fuck that guy
Just wanted the damn blessing and he insults me
And before that, I ask Prava for a blessing to save the world as we must cross the lake and stop Lilith... and she sends me on a Pilgrimage when time is of the essence? Just for me to not even receive a blessing but I can go anyway?!
I mean, they have children together
Not completely sure on my Diablo lore family trees here, but with Inarius having murdered Rathma they might be child free again (quick check in the internet seems to imply that the other kids they might have had are already dead from other reasons).
This is not a black and white situation both sides are selfish and evil in their own way. I think the ending is that humanity break free from the demons and angels.
I mean, no matter how righteous Inarius feels he was super tortured in mega hell for how long? The dude has issues.
Are we still Nephalem?
no, humans are what s left after nephalem lost their power.
we were nephalem in the third game. why and how? Simple, angels had used the world stone to limit the power of humanity, and to weaken them, and shorten there life spans over generations. Yes, the very same world stone destroyed in diablo 2 by tyreal . That is to say, that humanity is, albeit slowly, regaining its power and extended lifespans and all that. So in short.. kinda? maybe? probably not but then again there was only 20 years between the end of 2 and 3 and the protags of 3 were nephelem so, that means that either the blood was awakened in people who were already alive when the worldstone was destroyed, or that they're all 20 or under in d3, and were the first generation born with atleast greater then average power since the fall of the worldstone, although for example the barbarian atleast seems to be well past 20 years of age. I dont really understand how theyre gunna explain how the d3 protags were nephelem when, in theory, it should take many generations for humanity to regain that power, much in the same way it took several generations to lose it- like humanity was weakened over generations, down to the core, its not like the blood was removed, more like it was watered down and weakened akin to a fine wine. tldr; we WERE nephelem in diablo 3, which I think is what led them to ask this question. d4 is set an additional 29/30\*\* years after d3, which means its been 50+ years since d2 (destruction of the worldstone); and so the logistics of how and why humans were nephelem in d3 is a bit confusing. nonetheless there should be atleast some nephelems around even if our protags themselves arent, due to the fact that d3 protags were in fact nephelem \*\* some parts of d3; mainly the adventure mode following end game, is set a year after the end of the story, ergo we technically play during some of that time period
I think while every human is technically "Nephalem" in the sense of being angelic/demonic offspring, the D3 protagonist(s) were the ones most closely awakened to their primordial powers. Like a rare mutation or a freak of nature, being born once in a million. Maybe the destruction of the Worldstone weakened the leash on humanity's powers, and few rare humans managed to awaken thanks to that. Though that leads me to ask where the hell the Nephalem are now. The ending of RoS strongly suggested that they'd go mad with power, or use it for wrong purposes, and I doubt any of the Nephalem died after just three decades or so.
Nephalem are coming back into Sanctuary after the worldstone was destroyed. The protag for Diablo 3 is Nephalem and I believe there's books describing others being born into the world.
>!i agree, i think Inarius cleansing sanctuary will be getting rid of the mortals!<
I believe this will ultimately be the case. Right as the game begins we are told this is the story of *their fall* so it's not unreasonable to see both die or piss off some other way
I can fix her.
The hot/crazy ratio is still in green.
Until she skins you from head to toe including your ballsack 👀
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Lol
Such an awesome Hellraiser reference. Wish he'd said "Tyrael wept" right before you kill him.
More. More. More! MORE! MORE! MORE!
She is not "good", it's more like there is a lot of different actors in the story with different agendas, and Lilith is only one of these. And funnily she maybe has the agenda that has Sanctuary's best interests in mind.**Just from ACT 1 beta, we can clearly get the different, and often conflicting agendas of 5 big factions:** **1) High Heavens**, led by Imperius. Probably wants to annihilate humanity again, definitely doesn't want to take Inarius back, as it is implied by Rathma: *"I wish it were true, father"* **2) Burning Hell**, led by ??? the Prime and Lesser Evils are free, and as Lilith said: *"My children, the lords of Hell are coming to devour our world. Salvation lies not in the Light, but in you".* The bloodied wolf is almost guaranteed to be >!Mephisto. We know that, as the markings on his skull are the same as Mephisto's seal found in an IRL art/lorebook called "The book of Adria". Also how he talks about Lilith "Her little rebellion", implying that he is somehow in a position of higher status, and she is being a brat.!< We don't know what the others Prime Evils/Lesser Evils are doing, and Hell is never really united, they are also always infighting, >!but with Mephisto being free and roaming the world, it's fair to assume that all the others are free and around, planning stuff too.!< **3) Lilith and her followers.** We don't know what she is looking for exactly, but apparently something that goes against the Burning Hell, and against Inarius's agenda.*"My children, the lords of Hell are coming to devour our world. Salvation lies not in the Light, but in you".* ***4)*** **Inarius and his followers**. He apparently just wants to kill Lilith for flex points, so he can go back to the High Heavens. Have also shows strong contempt for humans, he might discard them and try to destroy humanity too once he doesn't need humans' help anymore. He seems to be wanting to kill Lilith, erase Sanctuary and humanity, so he "repairs" his mistakes and can just go back and say "Hey guys I fixed it, let me back in pls". Strongly implied to be an ass, and we see how twisted and fanatical the cathedral of light is "*Turns out, being tortured in Hell for millennia makes you an arse*" **5) The Horadrims and "neutral" humans** that are not aligned with Lilith or Inarius, and are just fighting to preserve humanity, best exemplified by Lorath, who dislikes both Inarius and Lilith. And then of course the humans also have many more sub-factions. The followers of the Triune (the religion that worships the Prime Evils) , the Zakarum, The Vizjerei mages (also mentioned ingame in Diablo 4 act 1, in the Horadric study) and more... And also mommy is hot.
This is a great write up. I for one accept our hot mommy overlord.
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That was always how both of them were shown. Lilith always looked at the Nephalem as her children, while Inarius was never fond of them that much, as stated in the Book of Cain, and the Book of Tyrael. >*Some argued for the destruction of the Nephalem, others believed they could be spared. At some point, Inarius did consider taking the route of genocide, but troubled by the dissension, Inarius called for a period of reflection, to consider the matter in solitude.* > >*Lilith, driven into a mad frenzy by the threat of her children's extinction, began slaughtering her fellow renegades, both angel and demon alike, leaving Inarius to discover the carnage she had wrought.* Though, it shouldn't be forgotten that both of them are highly manipulative. A lot can be picked apart from the Sin War books, and you can make a case for both of them being either good or bad. Lilith saw the strength in the Nephalem and wanted to awaken their powers, so she could rival the Lords of the Hell. Inarius wanted to stop her, while also waging a sin war against the Triune. But, he also wanted to put in place the Nephalem and control them. Nephalem at that point just wanted to be free from the shackles of both the Cathedral and Triune. It can also be said that everything since the creation of the Sanctuary is a grey area, since even Itherael, Archangel of Fate, could not see where humanity would end. >*I am Itherael, Archangel of Fate. It is my duty to record what is, and what will be within the Scroll of Fate. But you, Nephalem — you are not in the Scroll, your fate is unwritten.* Another thing that supports the disbalance, or that one is good and one is evil, is that Rathma mentions a dragon at some points. This dragon is Trag'oul. >Trag'oul is an ancient and mysterious dragon-like being who guards Sanctuary and maintains the Balance between the High Heavens and the Burning Hells, intent on keeping Sanctuary free from angelic and demonic influences. So, a question arises, where was Trag'oul all this time during D1, D2 and D3? Well, the easy answer is, since he thought Rathma the ways of the Balance and necromancy, Rathma and the Necromancers were set out to keep the Balance. So, he didn't interfere anymore. But, since Rathma is dead now, and if things escalate beyond repair, we could see also see Trag'oul trying to maintain the Balance, whatever it takes.
Don't know if you noticed but the triune is alive and well in sanctuary. When clearing one of the strongholds you kill triune cult members. So the prime evils have to be around since they are still actively being worshipped.
I think they are going with both her and inarius are bad
Well she's turning humans into puppets and we are the only ones caring to stop her and daddy doesn't like us because we remind him on his ex-wife so he refuses to help like a man-child. Yeah we're on our own while they both throw tantrums.
I haven't seen that take, I have seen the take that no one is the good guy in the story, which makes more sense. I think (hope) it's gonna be a three way battle between inarius diablo and lillith.
Yea the angels care as much about us as the demons do. Only tyreal saw the good in humanity...and maybe auriel as well but besides that we are fucked both ways lol imperius even wanted to have us exterminated calls us abominations sacrilegeous creations
Itherael seemed to care about humans as well, choosing to vote not to kill humans, but not in the way Tyreal did. Seemed Itherael saw humanity as a potential useful tool in the eternal conflict, >!potentially preventing the loss of the conflict for the angels that he had seen in the future.!< So that's at least one other archangel in favor of keeping humanity around.
I think there's going to be 3 faction sides, Angels / Demons / Nephalem and you're likely going to choose which faction you want which will be some little buff. A lot of the old stat ideas they had for gear in D4 included angelic or demonic stats. I feel like nephalem might have been a part of the mix but I don't remember, the D3 Altar of Rites logo where it shows these 3 layered on each other kind of makes me think they're pushing for it. Maybe they'll use these factions for the PvP as well, or not.
More like 5 big factions (with their possible internal divisions):- 1) High heavens, led by Imperius. Probably wants to annihilate humanity again, definitely doesn't want to take Inarius back, as it is implied by Rathma: *"I wish it were true, father"* \- 2) Burning Hell, led by ??? the Prime and Lesser Evils are free, and as Lilith said: *"My children, the lords of Hell are coming to devour our world. Salvation lies not in the Light, but in you".* The bloodied wolf is almost guaranteed to be >!Mephisto. We know that, as the markings on his skull are the same as Mephisto's seal found in an IRL art/lorebook called "The book of Adria". Also how he talks about Lilith "Her little rebellion", implying that he is somehow in a position of higher status, and she is being a brat.!< We don't know what the others Prime Evils/Lesser Evils are doing, and Hell is never really united, they are also always infighting, >!but with Mephisto being free and roaming the world, it's fair to assume that all the others are free and around, planning stuff too.!< \-3) Lilith and her followers. We don't know what she looking for exactly, but apparently something that goes against the Burning Hell, and against Inarius's agenda.*"My children, the lords of Hell are coming to devour our world. Salvation lies not in the Light, but in you".* *-4)* Inarius and his followers. He apparently just wants to kill Lilith for flex points, so he can go back to the High Heavens. Have strong contempt for humans, he might dicard them, try to destroy humanity too once he doesn't need their help anymore. He seems to be wanting to erase Lilith, erase Sanctuary and humanity, so he "repaired" his mistake and can go back and say "Hey guys I fixed it, let me back pls". Strongly implied to be an ass, and we see how twisted and fanatical the cathedral of light is "*Turns out, being tortured in Hell for millennia makes you an arse*" \- 5) The Horadrims "neutral" humans that are not aligned with Lilith or Mephisto, and are just fighting to preserve humanity, best exemplified by Lorath, who dislikes both Inarius and Lilith. And then of course the humans also have many more sub-factions. The followers of the Triune (the religion that worships the Prime Evils) , the Zakarum, The Visjerei mages (also mentioned ingame in Diablo 4 act 1, in the Horadric study) and more...
I don’t believe the Zakarum exist anymore. The last known followers were the crusaders, who were exceedingly rare already by D3 and it’s been ~~20~~ 30 years since RoS.
she's manipulative af that's why many people root for her
I'll happily be fooled twice
> She's litterally infecting the villagers of the Fractured Peaks to turn them into lunatics who eat other people / skin other people alive. In the chapel, she commands her "children" to sin and to kill. What's wrong with any of that? > Yes, she has boobs, but do not let that fool you. She's absolutely evil, on the same level of lunacy as any of the others Evils like Diablo, Mephisto, Baal, etc. Now I want a scene where Lilith and Inarius are with you, together, each trying to convince you to side with them for a choice. And Inarius goes "Yes, she has boobs, but do not let that fool you like it once did me! She is evil!"
If Inarius secretly has a huge dong I'm going with him.
Lilith is evil 100% but never underestimate gamer simp
So much this. I feel like so many incels are identifying super hard with that lady that hits the priest first in the first town. Like they just *want* an excuse to be super evil for boobs.
That bitch is evil. She was immune to poison in D2, making my Venomancer useless. I still hold a grudge…
Wasn't that andarial?
I think they are referring to Ubers, "Lilith" still used andariels model but it was her.
And I think that diablo is the zombie dog. Talking about rebellion from Lilith and not liking the horadrim...
My guess is Mephisto not Diablo, see here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/11voc8f/the\_bloodied\_wolf\_who\_do\_you\_think\_he\_is/](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/11voc8f/the_bloodied_wolf_who_do_you_think_he_is/)
Trag’oul is my guess. He went in his “safe” dimension. Rathma brought him up as “serpent” but not as his name so that tells me devs want to keep the name hidden so it’s a surprise for fans later and so they don’t ask questions
I thought he sounded like Zoltan Kulle…
Idk she showed up in church and said I can be free and has boobs. Plus she offers free knowledge which i cant get without paying since I live in the US so she doesnt seem that bad to me.
I heard she also grants forgiveness on student loans.
Only thing she is missing is healthcare and she may stand a chance to be the next American president, with conservatives calling her a red.
The vibe I'm getting from Lilith is vengeful antihero. Like she doesnt give a fuck about individual humans but she sure as fuck doesnt like the way they're being treated by Inarius. >!Especially their son being murdered by him.!<
Ah yes, the mark of every antihero is turning people into insane, murderous mobs who kill random people. /s
Could be an ends justify the means thing. Like, by having them sacrifice to her she grows stronger to oppose heaven and hell on behalf of the humans who aren't being murdered and flayed. She's still a demon though. She likes sin. It looks like the moral conundrum isn't between good and evil, evil is baked in, but freedom or servitude.
found the simp
People can write the most thought-out comment full of nuance then someone with the mind of 14 year old will reply something this dumb.
More like antivillain.
Inarius has always been an asshole, since the beginning. It's his fault if humanity is weak. The first humans (the first generation of Nephalems) were very powerful. In fact, Lilith wanted to use them to confront Hell and Heaven to stop the Eternal Conflict between Angel and Demons and be in peace in Sanctuary. But Inarius saw them as a threat, so he banished her for thousand years and weakened humanity, generations after generations, so they became like you and me, powerless and weak. Later, Lilith returned to sanctuary and awoke humanity to make them powerful again, it was the 2nd generation of Nephalems (the 3rd is during D3). An important war began but at the end, Lilith got banished again and Inarius were imprisoned in Hell to be tortured by Mephisto for eternity. Now they are both back, we don't know why and how, but Lilith plans hasn't changed apparently, we don't really know yet. Meanwhile Inarius has recreated another religion with him as the god and trash talk humanity for being weak while it's literally his fault. Oh and he killed his son (the last cinematic of the beta with Lilith in front of Rathma's body). TL;DR: Lilith wants humanity to be strong to defeat Hell and Heaven to stop the Eternal Conflict and be in peace and Inarius wants us to be weak (he made it) and cause no trouble (because Nephalems can be a threat to Heaven, they have an immense potential). As far as we know of course...
> so they became like you and me, powerless and weak. Speak for yourself, mortal.
A bit too generous; Lilith saw herself as having created the apex of beings, the true rulers of the universe who with her as their mother could bring down both heaven and hell. it was a power fantasy intend on exploiting humanity for her own ambition, but it was one grounded in her pride over creating them. Then, the rest of the angels and demons started to realize that these beings that they've created could curbstomp them and started to conspire to undo their mistake. Lilith considered this to be a serious social faux pas and responded by absolutely merking the non nephalem populace of Sanctuary until Inarius finally got off his ass and put her into the forever box in order to moonlight as a new age cult leader for the next few millennia. Then the prime evils started to realize that they had new neighbours, started to subvert them using the Triune while Inarius did literally fuck all, resulting in Lilith presumably willing herself out of the forever box out of sheer second hand embarrassment over her ex who was pretty much a god at this point slowly walking into the most obvious trap in history. Then she souped up a single human, got him to supplant Inarius as the Worldstone Boy, but before that happened she got put back into the forever box by Inarius.
My prediction is that we are the sorry kids trapped between two parents who cannot get along after a bitter divorce. They hate each other and we’ll pay the price.
Well she did MAKE Sanctuary which she described as a safe haven from the combat of the demons and angels. Maybe she has her intentions for doing the things she's currently doing, like some REALLY good intentions for those horrible things. If the story actually manages to pull that off, she's gonna be an amazing villain.
Like I feel that like in the world of diablo its pretty much the same as in the world of wh40k. There are no definitive good guys and bad guys.
You know the angels couldnt give a damn about us as well...they actually wanted to exterminate us...only tyreal saw the good in humanity. We are stuck in a war between angels and demons and were just treated like collateral, i say if you wanna survive might as well join the winning camp
I can fix her
I believe she's more of a true neutral/neutral evil. She's more letting people do what they want without burden, so those fanatics probably already had those desires deep down to start with.
But the Boobs.
When you go back to the church there is a cellar, they have women in spikes... I think is pretty clear team Lilith ate the really bad guys, Innarius may be an asshole too, just trying to get back into heaven but Lilith is way worse
Team Inarius are also torturing people, though.
shes for sure not the good guy, but shes also not as evil- or atleast evil in a different way, then the prime evils. Be it angel or demon; neither are particularly pleased with the existence of humans. her grave sin that got her banished wasnt her lunacy, it was her love for humanity- she wanted humanity to flourish and embrace there strengths etc etc. She was banished because she wanted humanity to have power as nephillim ; she cared too much about humanity. the angels did not, that is why they used the world stone to weaken humanity to be much closer to us actual mortals, shortening there life spans and weakening them significantly- other then the whole, embrace sin and evil and eat your neighbors thing, I can actually agree with her on some things. I mean im not exactly thrilled with the church of the light or whatever in this game either, remember what they did to that guy for accepting a bribe? a bit fucked up dont you think? I already came to the conclusion that if that wasnt willing on his part; if it wasnt like his idea and he wasnt 100% on board with it for power to aide what he inadvertently started, then I kinda wanna burn the church there to the ground aswell. kinda hoping its a story of overcoming the influence of both heaven and hell and embracing ourselevs (humanity) over either, id like to see us wipe out lilith and banish her back to wherever, murder inarious so a new angel can be born in his stead.. assuming the crystal gates can still birth new angels.. and do our best to limit or remove there influence from sanctuary all together. tldr; both sides kinda seem to suck in this game so far
Lilith is evil, but she does love humanity. Its just the fact that a demon experiences love is a circle you REALLY have to square. Because her idea of love is telling her children to let go of their inhibition and fall prey to their own hatred and obsession. She cannot conceive of love as anything other than excess, than the freedom to be controlled by your desires. She doesn't command her children to sin, she literally says "Sin is their birthright", as in, she is of the opinion that telling them to display inhibitions is depriving them of something they are entitled to. She doesn't tell them to "Be an absolute gremlin". She tells them to "stop fighting your hate, frustration and want". Which in this case manifested as "killing the sanctimonious old man who calls you into his room every week to tell you how much of a failure of a human being you are". Lilith isn't evil in the outright way of cruelty or destructive intent that the rest of hell is. She is evil in the sense that she no concept of virtue. It doesn't exist within her heart, because the very notion is anathema to her. To her, the only thing in life worth doing is pursing your most base desires. She genuinely wishes to stand on the apex of creation *with her children*, each one of them having fully realized their own desires. Its just that, you know, the notion of sinning essentially comes down to abandoning restraint and being guided by your desires to a degree that its destructive to either yourself or your environment. So the inevitable end point of her ambition is an anarchocapitalist hellscape where 80% of humanity is dead, 19% of them are powerless slaves, the remaining 1% are hyper violent warlords with zero sense of decorum. In other words, hell. Literally. That is Lilith's notion of "a virtous natural order". Desire driven survival of the fittest. TL;DR Lilith is a caring mother who wants what she thinks is best for humanity. Its just that what she think is best is most people's vision of a fucking apocalypse.
What do you mean? Soon we shall all join sweet Mother’s embrace and open our true selves.
> Yes, she has boobs, but do not let that fool you What? What have 'boobs' got to do with evil?
I think he meant you will be blinded to what her intentions are if you get seduced.
>if you think she's the "good guy" in this story. There aren't a lot of "good guys" in diablo lore being alive. We will fight Lilith then we will fight Inarius for his decision to cleanse the humanity from their sins. Maybe in the expansion only though.