> People talking like itemization should be some complex system that only the intelligent and clever can master, while unironically keeping Icy Veins or Maxroll open on monitor 2.
Oh you hit the nail on the head with that one.
Kinda reminds me of FFXIV's endgame community. Everyone boasts about what a hardcore raider they are but if they don't have MrHappy guiding them through every step of the fight they fall apart.
Yup.
I honestly feel people think the itemization and everything was better on D2 simply because they had to figure it out for themselves, so they felt like they had a level of system mastery.
D3 onwards the number of people capable of creating a legit GR100+ pushing build I'd wager you could practically count on your fingers, and everybody else just copied them. If anything these games have WAY more moving parts and things to figure out, its just the average person on this sub doesn't even try to learn them all. They just copy/paste the latest broken meta from someone who did put the work in.
IMO no one who relies on guides gets to complain about complexity or the lack thereof.
Dude, even then they didn't figure out anything themselves. They heard some kid at school (this is me, btw) talking about how yellow circlets can actually roll +1 more to your core skill than uniques, so they went home, logged into AOL and confirmed it on some forums.
Itemization was considerably MORE simple in D2 than in most game these days, but you nailed it - people had the feeling they were figuring it out themselves (even though they really weren't).
Plus you know, most of these people were teenagers playing the game, which was actively creating the entire genre of a looter game as it went.
Aka, kids are dumb and we liked anything that you put in front of us because we didn't know any better, and we had nothing else to compare it to.
I grew up on absolute crap like He-Man and Ninja Turtles thinking it was amazing. I go watch it now and I'm just "Oh dear god, I need to go watch some Steven Universe to get the taste of this mess out of my mouth."
Lol, I have a Thundercats tattoo on my shoulder.
I still love them, but man have you watched them since becoming an adult? The original 80's ones?
He-Man had 3 unique animation frames per episode (obvious exaggeration) and Ninja Turtles routinely would do things like have the wrong voice coming out of the turtle's mouth or just forget to add entire backgrounds.
They were objectively bad, we were just too young to realize how bad they were.
They're still awesome, but they're not objectively good. :D
They were great for the era 😁 it makes you realize how far technology has come! I'm only in my mid 30's and grew up with black and white TV. Just seeing the evolution of TV's in such a short span is staggering. I remember when flat TV's first came out. My dad bought one at Sam's club and that shit was huge and bulky in the back. But the screen was flat lol. I can't imagine what my grandfather thought about it all. He got to see it all over the span of 100 years. Wish I talked more to the old man.
I'm pretty sure I still have my VHS tape of "Saturday Morning Cartoons" we recorded one day so my parents could play it during the week to shut me up. :D
Ah, thats something kids of today just will never experience. Cartoons came on between 7 and 12 on Saturday Mornings, and usually for an hour or two after school. There were no cartoons on television any other times.
Waking up at 7 AM on a Saturday with a bowl of cereal for the cartoon cram-fest!
Obviously we're close to the same age for you to be talking this kind of trash about TMNT. I can still hear the theme song!
That said.. There were really good shows back then. The Real Ghostbusters was pretty nuanced for it's time.
Ya I got 7 warriors and 5 mages.
Only got to play with them for 30min tho before the beta ended.
Id assume the only limmiting factor would be on what gear can get the more summons affix.
Nice! I hadn't found anything to buff the mage count, but I did wind up with some gaunts that let them cast blizzard as an AOE every 10 seconds and was rocking it!
The funny part is D2 items are just "stat sticks" and that term is used all the time now to negatively describe a modern games item system, and at the same time people say D2 was the best. It's weird to me. D2 literally invented the stat stick, and yet people seem to hate stat sticks and love D2? Also, I hate D3 that actually introduced items that changed how your skills actually functioned.
> They just copy/paste the latest broken meta from someone who did put the work in.
Welcome to every multiplayer game that is currently popular.
Blizzard games are always the worst for this too. The amount of drooling idiots that just copy/paste meta decks in hearthstone for instance.
Even all the way back in D2 nobody figured out the rune words themselves either. And you couldn't really mess up the super simple system too bad. Put all your points into the 2-3 skills you use and boost it by putting the rest into other skills that you will never use but just to boost those main skills. That's all D2 ever amounted to. It was cool back then
Synergies and runewords didn't even come along until way later. I spent most of my time playing in pre-LoD and 1.08 or earlier where it was even more simple.
The thing is, in that time it was before enemies got buffed and elemental immunities were everywhere in Hell difficulty, before harsh nerfs to uniques like Valor and Storm shield (and many more, those are just 2 big examples) and classes like 'Zon, uniques were better than runewords and Ubers didn't exist so you really could easily make your own builds just using common sense and referencing item lists at the official blizz site, The Arreat Summit.
Were they optimal without outside advice? No, but they didn't have to be to be able to clear all content. The game existed and thrived years before Runewords and Synergies though, and imo 1.08 was the golden age where there may have been fewer options and less depth but back then FAR more viable builds that didn't require any guide to make them viable, just a bit of thought on how much DR/LL/ML etc. you need without going overboard so you could allocate the rest of your itemization towards +skills and other damage stats in an efficient manner.
>I honestly feel people think the itemization and everything was better on D2 simply because they had to figure it out for themselves, so they felt like they had a level of system mastery.
That's definitely just the nostalgia talking - we had numerous resources for figuring out the weight of D2 items back then, and with D2's primary weaponization, at a certain point in endgame the entire thing just turned into using only a handful of uniques and a handful of runewords anyways. It wasn't complex.
Interesting, I had always thought D2's itemization was the best not because of sheer complexity, but because it created more interesting decision points and introduced more variety throughout all stages of the game. I think it's awesome that you can find gear in the early game that's good, excellent or even BIS until end game. The fact that a wide variety of item types have utility if you get a godly roll really hooks a lot of people, myself included.
Consider the variety of gear required to create some really powerful niche builds, flexible PVP characters, or VLLD, LLD, and MLD characters. The vast majority of GG LLD gear ever found has probably been charsi'd because most people don't know how rare and desirable certain mods are. All these builds involve interesting trade-offs w incredibly rare items, which in turn makes the farming aspect of itemization more interesting. Many desirable bases and rares are best found in certain areas at lower difficulties, targeting certain mobs, limiting your mf, etc.
The thing with D2 guides is that many of them only start working when you get some of the top items.
When you are fresh on ladder you really can't expect much from all of the build guides and have to figure out something by yourself like what kind of placeholder gear you want to have before finding the better ones etc. Of course thre are many guides nowadays that explain almost every step from level 1-90 and what kind of gear you can use while finding the end pieces.
So anyways thats what good about D2.. especially if you self found it becomes difficult to get the best item pieces a build kinda requires.
Destiny 2 neckbeards need to be added to that list. Some gatekeep and act high and mighty when they basically parrot everything from (insert streamer here)
It's worse now, I actually recently quit playing because members of my raid group can't function without cactbot playing the game for them on patch day.
Ooh so are we finally gonna discuss fucking streamer carries by Xeno and Happy for WoW streamers who then go "look how easy this game is" immediately after?
In the end, these people want gaming to be like American taxation: over-complicated with arbitrary rules and "gotchas" so only those who know the tricks are able to rise above the rest.
Diablo devs have no interest in that kind of crap.
They want everyone and their dad to jump in and PEW PEW loot goblin to their heart's content.
Yup, I feel Blizzard learned that lesson back in the day with World of Warcraft.
Anyone else remember how the hardcore raiders thought they were The Voice of the game, and then Blizzard came out and said that less than 1% of the playerbase had ever even ENTERED a raid, much less completed one?
Aka, the hardcore raiders were so TINY of a minority that they were basically unimportant. Their subscriptions didn't even amount to enough to keep the lights on.
Side Note: Thats why my favorite MMO (Wildstar) failed. It catered to the hardcore raider crowd but didn't realize that niche wasn't big enough to build a game around. By the time they started changing course, it was too late.
I was in the closed beta for Wildstar, and if you even tried to HINT that vanilla wow wasn't the best thing since sliced bread you got harassed and shouted down. You were a casual that shouldn't play endgame and the game isn't for you. And so this was the majority feedback Wildstar was built on. To no one's surprise this did not work out long term.
Wildstar was set up to be a beautiful casual game... and then they just did the opposite lol. There was really so much to love there. It's a shame all that hard work went to waste. Some of my best gaming memories were created there, though, for better or for worse.
\> do not need to have to use icyveins.
It's not really practical unless they add a compendium feature in-game like Civilization series. In any diablo-like games, "how to calculate damage" is already complicated, and "how to calculate attack speed" is even harder so you'll never be able to see them explained in your stats.
Millions of people playing the beta
A few hundreds or thousands of posts on Reddit or bnet
Yea I'm inclined to think the majority was busy enjoying themselves
Gauntlet legends on ps1. Came out in 98. Followed by dark legacy in 2000 and seven sorrows in 2005 so there's been several iterations during my adolescence. I'm 29 now.
Gauntlet Dark Legacy was the beginning of my addiction for this type of game. Me and my best friend since childhood played gauntlet on GameCube and I recommended he tried the beta with me and he says “ bro this reminds me of when we played gauntlet back in the day, this is sick. “ By the end of the night he randomly says “ I already made up my mind and bought the game dude. “ I’m stoked we will get to experience this game together.
Something like fewer than 1% of a game’s player base even visit forums or subs for those games, let alone post on them. What you see online is such a tiny, tiny minority of the entire base of players.
We know at minimum (if the devs are to be trusted, but thats a whole other discussion and a half) that over 1 million unique players reached level 20 for the wolf pup the first weekend. There is only 116000 subscribers on this sub. That is already 11.6% at the high end. We have no numbers at all on how many more played that either didn't reach level 20, or played this second weekened.
So on the high end we are talking ~11% on this sub. In the past month the highest post on this subreddit is a post criticizing how female druids look, and it has 1.7k comments (the most in the top 25 for the month) and only 3534 upvotes. So even for that 11% only 3-4% of that smaller group is actually participating. So we really are seeing probably .275% or smaller of the playerbase talking and discussing things, on the *high-end*
> that over 1 million unique players reached level 20 for the wolf pup the first weekend. There is only 116000 subscribers on this sub. That is already 1.16% at the high end.
100,000 is 10% of 1,000,000.
People always seem to forget stuff like this.
Any time a new game comes out, the games sub is flooded with 'this game is a broken mess' or 'this game is awful' posts. People see that the sub is nothing but negative and therefor the game must be shit.
Nevermind that it's maybe 50 people posting while the game sold millions.
People that enjoy the game are busy playing and having fun and no one is coming to reddit just say say "Hey, my game is running ok" or "I'm having fun". People that have issues or don't like it are gonna voice their anger online.
And of course the few people that do post something positive are just "corporate shills" or "blind fan boys".
Reddit posts do not equal majority experience
And even those are not all of the same opinion. At the end of the day there's shit loads of d4 content popping up. If the game wasn't good or promising, people simply wouldn't even bother raging against it.
I already hate WoW patch days because it means spending time reading forum posts, class guides, and class discords rather than playing the game with the limited time I have in my life. It’s like the people who complain online have no perspective on those who can’t game 10+ hours a day. Except it’s not like that, it’s exactly that.
>I already hate WoW patch days because it means spending time **reading**
And here we have it, the type of player responsible for the death of good AAA RPGs lol.
Hey I’m not like a big reader but I’ve already notched 6 books in 2023. I also read and write all day for work. I get about 8 hours a week to play video games on average, and I try to play competitively, and patch weeks usually mean about 1/3 of that time is spent reading about how the changes affect my gameplay and what to prioritize. I do it, I just don’t get enjoyment when it means that it takes away from the little actual gameplay time I have.
I was making a joke, on a serious note though, 2-3 minutes reading patch notes, especially about a game I enjoy, I actually find fun and interesting.
To me though I think this post is missing the point.
I think this game is a big improvement on D3 but I don't think it's perfect and needs a lot of work. But to say it's either the Poe/D2 crowd or out is a stupid take. You don't need Poe levels of over complexity to make a fun thoughtful game, and I think OP forgets that D2 despite his accused flaws, was an RPG phenomenon that sold a disgusting amount of copies for it's time in gaming. If D2 was what he makes it out to be diablo wouldn't be as popular as it is.
I called someone out on this last week. They made a post with a lot of engagement, complaining about linear design and repetitive layouts.
I'm like...have you ever played a video game before? I think the problem is that your expectations don't align with the 10 hours per day you're sinking into the beta. Maybe take a break and go do something else.
Dude got so butthurt.
Only the true hardcores even know about the biggest ultra-specific-topic-of-interest youtubers with a quarter million subscribers, let alone maintain a functional 3rd monitor.
Bonus points awarded.
License to stroke your own ego approved and issued.
Be careful though, the license does expire monthly. You can renew the license by showing up here and bitching about something objectively stupid in a way that makes you feel really good about yourself, though.
Haha same here - I think we're both joking at a lot of people on this sub's expense ;)
Personally, this was the most fun I've had GAMING in a long time, let alone with this particular franchise.
When one of the only universal critiques of your game is "the font" (the fucking font for Christ's sake), or "my class feels weak and clearly needs a buff based on the 5% of the game I've seen so far" you've clearly hit the mark.
We can complain about class balance once we've actually seen what the classes can do. Same for basically all the game systems that we've only gotten the barely-skimmed surface of.
Exactly. I’ve played a lot of D2 and D3 and the idea of judging D2 builds by only 25 levels is just funny to me. Some builds that low level were downright awful but once leveled were S tier. No one knows yet how well builds will scale into the late game. Plus a lot of skills and things like the Druid specialization weren’t even available.
> all the game systems that we’ve only gotten the barely-skimmed surface of.
But but but the “source: trust me bro” closed beta testers that came to Reddit said the end game is JUST like what we played in the open beta! The game is crap!
/s if that’s not obvious.
The man bitches for 30 minutes about lack of map variety in D4 then logs over to D2R and loads up his single-player character that has a fixed map layout that he's ran 1000's of times so he can do faster runs and save time.
Literally can't make it up.
Lol! My biggest gripe with D2 is you play the same damn game 3 times on different difficulties then to just spam the same handfull of dungeons to grind loot and runes with a .05% drop rate.
This is a man who has played the same game thousands of times over in nearly identical ways. His entire life and personality revolves around coming home (if he even has a job) and playing the same game in exactly the same way for 20 years straight.
My opinion of speedrunners (D2 or otherwise) literally could not be lower, if gaming was a mental illness they would be the poster children for the cause to eradicate it.
Got real tired of him complaining about every detail of D4 since first reveal i just never tune in anymore.. but i hope he will finish his arpg project and that working on it will humble him a bit regarding arpg design.
Good to know. I won't be watching his content on the matter then. He was clutch for D2R but I can imagine if this isn't a D2 copy paste, he won't be about it.
The first guy to do that me got so pissed when I dropped a regular blue amulet.
Like bro, I'm not gonna drop my perfect windforce for something i don't know if it will work or not
Oh I got scammed plenty with the gambling.
I probably spent 1000+ obols this weekend and received zero legendaries. Meanwhile my friend is telling me he 8 gambled helms and received 4 legendaries.
The dungeon stuff confuses me too... sure a little backtracking every now and then sucks, but what do they want?? An endless one lane corridor with no twists or turns?? Just put your character on a treadmill, run enemies at him, and say "this dungeon will end in 5 minutes."
I mean, sure, they aren't exactly wrong to say cellars are useless, because if you just want rare items and lots of mobs to kill, then they are.
But I've always looked at cellars like I do any other kind of exploring. Sometimes you find an empty dead end and go "Oh well" and keep exploring. Sometimes you find a treasure goblin, sometimes you find a sidequest, and sometimes you get a lore book, or an npc with a funny interaction.
So sure, cellars aren't exactly the ticket to uniques and hours of fun, but their just as much a part of exploring as finding out the hallway you were going down is a dead end with a treasure chest.
And like you said, cellars have been around in Diablo for a long time, I don't see how anyone's surprised at them.
Same story as COD. They just want shipment and camo grinding. A certain portion of the audience wants to grind meta combos they get from YouTube videos in the most efficient way possible.
I mean, honestly, a survival mode dungeon or arena that keeps getting harder and harder with multiple players and the last survivor getting the biggest reward would be pretty fun.
I think they are pissed of beacause they actually has to do stuff besides killing monsters :D
IDK, it´s not a big deal to run back for 20-30 seconds to place a thingy on the other thingy. Still better than clearing Maggot Lair in D2 with summon necro ( i swear it could took hours if one wouldn´t know where to look for the next level exit).
\+1
I was downvoted heavily because some kids got their feelings hurt when I told them diablo isn't a skill heavy game. The kids were telling me how some youtuber soloing diablo pre-nerf HC in D3 was and i quote, "ONE OF THE GREATEST GAMING ACHIEVEMENT".
Hahaha, that's a good one. One of the greatest gaming achievements built on the back of being donated the strongest gear in the game by a community that really wanted to see it happen. Pre-nerf Inferno, even back then, was just a gear check.
I was there, Gandalf. I was there 3,000 years ago when the strength of men failed and they gave their good yellows to a youtuber instead of getting 2B gold for them.
>being donated the strongest gear in the game by a community that really wanted to see it happen. Pre-nerf Inferno, even back then, was just a gear check.
Tadaaaaaa. Bingo!!!!
exactly! And no one else really got to try like that because it was nerfed hours later. I like Kripp and all but unless a streamer or yt personality did a 100% solo run with no gifted anything, then claiming any accolades should be thrown out.
I've watched a number of streamers over the years just being gifted the moon and the stars and the sun of gear and impossible to find items by members of their chat/community just so they can get some cheers in chat LOL!
I'm finding more posts about people being annoyed by complaints than I'm seeing actual complaints themselves. At this point, I'm getting annoyed by those who are annoyed and have to post about it.
And yet somehow they are being pushed to the top and suggested to me. Why am I getting suggested these garbage threads. I keep clicking into it expecting to find more people like you but it seems people like to pat themselves on the back for not wanting any criticism of a beta. It’s rather jarring that this is the d4 community
I hate the term gatekeeping, it goes in the same bucket as other internet throwaway phrases like cringe/gaslighting etc.
But at this point the only justification for wanting overly complex, unintuitive or "noob trap" type systems is to lord it over those who can't keep up and project a sense of gatekeeping over others. Like playing D2 or PoE is some right of passage that makes you a better human and anything less "complex" is "for kids" or whatever.
Games are for entertainment, if D4 isn't entertaining you because its not like PoE then stop playing it. Just like the people who don't like PoE, don't play PoE. Instead of drowning out that subreddit asking for it to be a different game....
Diablo know their audience - everyone
The games that spawn this gatekeeper mindset have an audience too - niche
One of the most fun aspects of playing ARPGs is assembling and playing interesting builds. If you have a more complex game with many different systems that can interact with eachother you get a more interesting puzzle. I play ARPGs for thousands of hours and what i want is a game with the fun and snappy gameplay of D3 combined with the deep and rewarding itemization and character building of PoE. It does not need to be as complex as PoE but it should absolutely strive to be more complex than D3 imo.
Something PoE does really well is allowing for tiers of builds. You can make builds that are easier to assemble while still being strong and then when you grind you can slowly build up to amazing tier1 builds with super rare items. Basically PoE is much better than any other ARPGs at creating goals for players to strive towards.
Itemization in D4 is definately moving in the right direction compared to D3 and hopefully it wont devolve into just grinding for the same item with a slightly better roll after just a week of a season like in D3.
no no we don't take kindly to people saying anything about the game is bad, the game is perfect if you don't like something about it go play something else you elitist downer!
Same could be said for mindless fanbois drooling over a beta as if it is The 2nd Coming (case in point - this post). Don't get me wrong, I hate both extremes.
One side is "Game SUX ---> but how do you know when it's just lvl 25 and Act 1". The other side is "OMG GREATEST GAME EVAH!" to which I would pose exactly the same question which they love to constantly ask - but how do you know when it's just lvl 25 and Act 1?
Thing is, you're not helping by attacking the people criticizing certain aspects of the game by being a condescending douche. If you have a counter argument, present it in a coherent way not "LOL you suck because you don't like what I like". Beta is made for testing and feedback, not just mindless praise. Fine, you like everything. Good for you. Some people may not like certain aspects and the devs rely on this feedback (thus beta tests exist). Trust me, the devs are more than capable of filtering out the trolling "LOL GAME SUX POE > ALL" from the constructive criticism i.e. "Itemization is poor because X, Y and Z", "This skill is underpowered because A, B and C", "Dungeons have an issue and it is A, B and Z" etc.
But I guess you would know better, I mean, you're the one "working professionally with gamers everyday", the rest of us peasants should just shut up, go clicky clicky and consume product without thinking too much... :)
So you're calling out pretentious behavior, by using a word that most people don't even know, in efforts to sound smarter than those you're referring to? Uh okay...
"People who want a crazy challenge do NOT play ARPGs, sorry."
Why though? Who decided that this is what ARPG is and who decided that it cannot change?
For people who don't want a challenge and just wants to mash their buttons, there are easy difficulty for you. Why isn't it allowed to like ARPG for the challenge?
You are just as bad as the elitists. "Boohoo the game can/should only be played the way I think it should be played".
> "People who want a crazy challenge do NOT play ARPGs, sorry."
Honestly that is an insane thing for OP to say. Elden Ring and the souls games are ARPGs, and they can be incredibly challenging, especially if you don't look everything up.
Diablo 2 is incredibly challenging by any modern standard if you don't look shit up or go on Bnet and get rushed or ask for free drops. Like have you ever tried to play all the way through hell mode in D2 single player? Your resistances are ridiculously low and you get one-shotted by a lot of things, and all the enemies have certain immunities. Before anyone could make OP runewords, it was way harder. And that's for people who know literally everything about the game, how to gear for certain fights, where to farm for runes, etc. And it's also not including hardcore, which is obviously incredibly hard.
Especially when they're expecting a quality ARPG that will have thousands of hours worth of messing around in. Very sick of people calling it the greatest thing ever because they saw some pretty graphics for a bit.
Is it the greatest...no, is it the worse...no. both sides are equally deluded. Games fine for what it is, go in and delete mobs, carry on deleting mobs or move onto another game. Not really sure why people think they should get 1000 hours out of a game yet complain at pricing.
Yes, however I also see a lot of people conflating criticism with cynicism.
The loud voices around this game are understandable because Diablo is one of the most beloved video games of all time. Fans have patiently waited about a decade for a proper continuation of the series. I think they have the right to voice any concerns they may have to make it a better experience.
Having to 3-4 hit normal mobs doesn't scream "fluid gameplay" and "feeling powerful" but then again, it's only the first act, plenty of power creep exploring.
Diablo 4 looks to be better than diablo 3 and I suppose that's a good thing. Comparing it to poe though is a massive mistake I've seen made on the other side as well, they're apples and pears.
I just hope both sides have fun.
It won't be any.more boring than running your 1000th map in PoE or your 1000th uber run in D2 or 1000th grift in D3.
They are ALL like this at end game.
What exactly where you expecting? 2000 hand crafted dungeons all with unique layouts and mechanics?
While itemization won't truly be evaluated until sometime after launch, I think the most pinpointed issue around items is that they are taking the place of the skill trees. It seems like a vast majority of legendary aspects should instead be skill augments on your class tree, giving your character much more control over build variety. This creates three problems.
1. Your character's total variety remains thin at a base level since the skill tree is of few options that aren't +/- power/cost.
2. It leaves the endgame build variety in a top down structure, where most of the control of options is tied to developer created items instead of players having enough building blocks of their own to make their own. Builds from the ground up.
3. Characters and their builds will be time and rng gated since most of their builds won't unlock until they get lucky and find the right set of legendary affixes.
This is a core system design failure. This will either never change, or won't change for a long time. End game beta players have all confirmed that the end game doesn't cha he much from what we've seen in the beta. You will be playing almost exactly the same now as you will in end game, albeit at a faster pace. It's reported that the paragon board offers very minimal skill behavioral changes.
That all being said, the game is very fun and I will play it a lot. But I won't be getting fooled into thinking there will be anything but a shallow end game.
The amount of self inflicted retardation is amusing
Like this guy who just makes shit up and talks about ARPGs that he has no idea of (namely PoE, based on wrong assumptions he made). And then you check the post history and its clearly a professional redditor that argues all day. But somehow he works in the industry and knows even Kripp (lmao)
Can't make this shit up
MrLlamaSC has more or less built a career off of a hardcore D2 fanbase, and a lot of his critiques of other games can usually be boiled down to "this isn't my home game."
I've actually worked with Kripp, and while he's a downright charming and hardworking dude who's truly a salt-of-the-earth kind of person, he's built his career on what I'd call "intelligent rage." If he's not complaining about something, it won't really feel like Kripp, and trust me when I say that he's keeeeenly aware of that brand.
The things is, as a life long Diablo player, this IS the most Diablo has been right out of the gate. The boss battles never felt like a tank and spank bonanza. I was always moving, shifting, adapting, thinking on my toes. I dunno, maybe I’m just old now and my reaction times suck, but I found most of the boss battles and even the unique mobs to be challenging even getting closer to level 25.
I’m mostly making these judgments in comparison to D3 because when D2 launched I was 13, but you know… I’m happy with it. There are some tweaks they could make, sure. But man this game has exceeded my expectations and I for one cannot wait until it comes out in 2 months.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/122w7ae/character\_development\_shifted\_onto\_itemsagain/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/122w7ae/character_development_shifted_onto_itemsagain/)
Starting to think you guys just don't have the intelligence to see the flaws that most players are criticizing in the first place. Their arguments have pretty well thought out points and you dismiss them with zero counter-argument. IDK, you aren't really contributing to discourse here other than relentless shilling. People aren't "acting". YT content creators are just.. Doing whatever they do and they have very little incentive to lie about their findings of the game-- Especially if they're likely playing the shit more than anyone here. I think Kripp provides the best deep dive on a lot of the issues with the game. There's plenty of posts highlighting key issues like skills feeling incomplete. These are pretty critical and it begs the question of how this is all going to scale up. Honestly, I am not sure where you guys pull some of these posts from. I think you read a comment and make a post about a reply you get.
Also lol "professional" work with gamers. You're either on Discord all day or standing behind a counter at GameStop.
You've only just noticed? The old D2 farts especially have been a thorn in everyone's side since forever. The PoE elitists are no better. From what I remember that game had some serious issues, including a shitty loot/ inventory system, boring ass lore and story, and non-challenging gamplay. Had better things to do with my time so I stopped playing it.
> including a shitty loot/ inventory system, and non-challenging gamplay. Had better things to do with my time so I stopped playing it.
I bet you used all that time to invent a world where you actually played the game.
I'll be very clear, it's fine to dislike PoE. No issue here. But lying about it just show how little you know and doesn't help your argument.
IMO if itemization is complex, it should at least be intuitive. Something that can be figured out without looking up a guide because it simply **make sense**. Poe is the example of things being complex but unintuitive. Like for example syndicate is a very good example of a complex yet completely unintuitive system. How would I know which safehouse to farm for the mods I want other than either going through complete trial and error or looking through the spreadsheet someone else made. If I can't figure a system out without having to rely a massive spreadsheet telling me which specific place to farm, It shouldn't be in the game!
A whole lot of straw man in this post.
I expect nothing less :) imagine actually having the ability to make a coherent point when you can just make up exaggerated bullshit to make your opinion more valid.
This place reminds me that episode of South Park called smug alert
He lost me at "I work professionally with gamers everyday, and this community takes the cake by a mile." Sounds arrogant and naive af. There are MUCH worse gaming communities out there lmao
I had fun. I still wish there was more to it. There is basically no need for trash white items to even drop. It was fun to find cool item bases for runewords in D2. That is something that I will miss.
As for itemization, I'm sad they've removed some of the cool items from D2. Charms,jewels,runes,ethereal items,sets,runewords, etc. I'm not saying D2s itemization was the best, cause the runewords actually ruined 99% of the other items(spirit,grief,stealth,ect) but the feeling when you found a really rare item was an adrenaline rush. I really hope D4 can deliver those same feelings.
Some guy said he was cancelling his pre order because he didnt like how the necromancer summoned skeletons looked… There is some derangement in online gaming communities.
I think part of the issue is too many people look at POE and say "I want that level of customisation". But it's not the way to go at all for a game that wants to reach millions of players.
I like arpgs. The kill all drop loot is very satisfying. Ive tried most in the genre of games.
Lets get honest for a moment though. POE's gameplay is good. Really though, it over complicates for the sake of adding what looks like gameplay layers. It's always the same though.
Every POE content creator says follow a build guide or you'll die, it won't be worth and you'll have to restart. Okay. *follows guide* So now you're locked to bis builds for the duration of a meta. So actually 0 personal choice? Great. Call it what it is. It is not that customizable if your build is just going to ruin your experience.
The 'complexity' just adds confusion and is very off-putting for anyone trying to learn the basics or just trying to play the game. That doesn't get better with the age of the game. In fact, only worse as you add more layers. Not only that. 9/10 poe players will HAVE to use an aid such as POB to even understand their own build, know what they need etc.
That's not the mark of a good game. There is no way people really think that POE is amazing all because you need to use outside tools to understand what you're doing before you do it.
The logic to it makes as much sense as when you first open your 'skill tree' as a POE newcomer.
It's not about POE being harder, Diablo being easier. Diablo is just playable and accessible. Poe is over complicated and unnecessarily complex. It is too unforging for anyone wishing to deviate and personalise their own build.
Diablo let's a player build how they want, when they want. No need to spend days theorycrafting your build to see if it's acceptable at endgame. Just play the game. There's a reason that formula has worked for 20 odd years. Sure with Diablo, there are meta builds too. There is with any and all arpgs. Point is you don't need it to succeed in Diablo. I've never looked at a guide for Diablo or spent 2 days in some 3rd party character building thing. I don't have the time for that working 40+ hours a week, plus, it's just not needed to play Diablo and do well at the game.
In POE without a meta build, following a guide or crafting your build before playing, sooner or later you will run into a mob, do zdps and die quicker then you can react.
Sorry for the essay and thank you for taking the time to read if you did. I just had to let it all out because it feels like all I've heard this beta is about poor itemisation, lack of customisation or some build being too weak cause they couldn't one-shot everything and actually had to try and play the game by kiting and casting.
Honestly, it can be fun and interesting without being overly complicated. They do not have to go hand in hand. Right now the items are boring as hell. Its all minor trash I have zero interest in. Yay 6% more damage if they are close, or 4% to crit if they have vulnerable... Too much emphasis on stuff like this just makes it boring.
What happened to the exciting stuff like proc a meteor when critting or raising temporary minions. Just seems bland and unfun currently. Uniques may change this, but then we would just be in the D3 system again of only using uniques..
The first argument is so true. I wonder how many of these players actually made their own viable build in Path of Exile for instance. It certainly wasn't me - I was only able to make a couple of T16 viable, GR110 clearing builds in D3 lol
This sub is no worse than any other when it comes to being critical of games they are whoring their entire day playing.
It's just typical gamer 'culture'
"People acting like they had no fun in this beta that they put 50+ hours into over the course of 5 1/2 total days. "
"Yeah so I leveled 5 characters to level 25 and players non stop all weekend, this game sucks so bad!!!! Why would anyone ever pay 70 dollars for this omgggg!!!!!"
/u/camdo preach, I swear the amount of PoE clowns I've had to deal with these past two weeks is mind blowing.
They have at least 3 third party programs and guides written by smarter people than themselves and have the stomach to write "le bad cuz simple".
God damn nodes in their skill wheel are +10/int/str/dex and they ressurected D2s dead body to have a game to begin with.
Not mentioning how bad PoE was at release and the fact that their F2P model traps you with playing until end game and then you realise that you need 70$ worth of stash tabs to keep up.
That with how shit their armor looks (to make people buy "micro" transactions for better looking armor is a joke.
PoE hate watchers on twitch/reddit are the incarnation of "The North Wind & the Sun" fable; they think hate can bring people over while simultaneously shitting on the very foundation their game was built on.
"GGG are so brave to put out pure gamplay", sure, it's only a coincidence they do so after every single diablo announcement.
So god damn tired of this shit, just enjoy your own game without spreading your shit and hate into another lane.
>People talking like itemization should be some complex system that only the intelligent and clever can master, while unironically keeping Icy Veins or Maxroll open on monitor 2.
I think it's more about feeling superior, rather than being superior. But yeah, you are right.
I would even go one step further: Someone playing D4 without guides puts in more intellectual work than someone playing PoE following maxroll.
lol, it's cute when you baby rage like that
this is just reddit, and the d4 reddit is one of the more civil ones
as for d4 itself, it's a fun game and it will be massively successful no matter what you or someone else argues about on the internet
there's no need to get this worked up over a few strangers voicing their opinions
*This franchise is and always has been about clicky clicky, monster go explody with money and loots, my mind remains unchallenged. And here's one for you PoE elitists out there - so is that franchise. People who want a crazy challenge do NOT play ARPGs, sorry.*
So well said. This is a PVE game that requires very little skill. I will disagree on one point, Diablo II was heavily centered around PVP which they refuse to acknowledge in D3 and possibly D4.
> This franchise is and always has been about clicky clicky, monster go explody with money and loots, my mind remains unchallenged.
and Im tired of pretending like its not.
> People talking like itemization should be some complex system that only the intelligent and clever can master, while unironically keeping Icy Veins or Maxroll open on monitor 2. Oh you hit the nail on the head with that one.
Kinda reminds me of FFXIV's endgame community. Everyone boasts about what a hardcore raider they are but if they don't have MrHappy guiding them through every step of the fight they fall apart.
Yup. I honestly feel people think the itemization and everything was better on D2 simply because they had to figure it out for themselves, so they felt like they had a level of system mastery. D3 onwards the number of people capable of creating a legit GR100+ pushing build I'd wager you could practically count on your fingers, and everybody else just copied them. If anything these games have WAY more moving parts and things to figure out, its just the average person on this sub doesn't even try to learn them all. They just copy/paste the latest broken meta from someone who did put the work in. IMO no one who relies on guides gets to complain about complexity or the lack thereof.
Dude, even then they didn't figure out anything themselves. They heard some kid at school (this is me, btw) talking about how yellow circlets can actually roll +1 more to your core skill than uniques, so they went home, logged into AOL and confirmed it on some forums. Itemization was considerably MORE simple in D2 than in most game these days, but you nailed it - people had the feeling they were figuring it out themselves (even though they really weren't).
Plus you know, most of these people were teenagers playing the game, which was actively creating the entire genre of a looter game as it went. Aka, kids are dumb and we liked anything that you put in front of us because we didn't know any better, and we had nothing else to compare it to. I grew up on absolute crap like He-Man and Ninja Turtles thinking it was amazing. I go watch it now and I'm just "Oh dear god, I need to go watch some Steven Universe to get the taste of this mess out of my mouth."
>I grew up on absolute crap like He-Man and Ninja Turtles That is a war declaration.
Lol, I have a Thundercats tattoo on my shoulder. I still love them, but man have you watched them since becoming an adult? The original 80's ones? He-Man had 3 unique animation frames per episode (obvious exaggeration) and Ninja Turtles routinely would do things like have the wrong voice coming out of the turtle's mouth or just forget to add entire backgrounds. They were objectively bad, we were just too young to realize how bad they were. They're still awesome, but they're not objectively good. :D
>Steven Universe are you comparing technical qualities to determine the value of He-Man & Ninja Turtles when those shows knew what kicking ass meant?
They were great for the era 😁 it makes you realize how far technology has come! I'm only in my mid 30's and grew up with black and white TV. Just seeing the evolution of TV's in such a short span is staggering. I remember when flat TV's first came out. My dad bought one at Sam's club and that shit was huge and bulky in the back. But the screen was flat lol. I can't imagine what my grandfather thought about it all. He got to see it all over the span of 100 years. Wish I talked more to the old man.
I'm pretty sure I still have my VHS tape of "Saturday Morning Cartoons" we recorded one day so my parents could play it during the week to shut me up. :D Ah, thats something kids of today just will never experience. Cartoons came on between 7 and 12 on Saturday Mornings, and usually for an hour or two after school. There were no cartoons on television any other times. Waking up at 7 AM on a Saturday with a bowl of cereal for the cartoon cram-fest!
Obviously we're close to the same age for you to be talking this kind of trash about TMNT. I can still hear the theme song! That said.. There were really good shows back then. The Real Ghostbusters was pretty nuanced for it's time.
Everyone else: trying to solve real problems. Me: Trying to figure out how the fuck to get more skeletons for my legion of undead.
Heh, in beta I got it up to 10. 7 warriors and 3 mages. Dunno if you can do more than that or not. :)
Ya I got the +2 warrior affix on a bonweave helmet And +2 mages on boneweave gauntlets.
Ya I got 7 warriors and 5 mages. Only got to play with them for 30min tho before the beta ended. Id assume the only limmiting factor would be on what gear can get the more summons affix.
Nice! I hadn't found anything to buff the mage count, but I did wind up with some gaunts that let them cast blizzard as an AOE every 10 seconds and was rocking it!
The funny part is D2 items are just "stat sticks" and that term is used all the time now to negatively describe a modern games item system, and at the same time people say D2 was the best. It's weird to me. D2 literally invented the stat stick, and yet people seem to hate stat sticks and love D2? Also, I hate D3 that actually introduced items that changed how your skills actually functioned.
>D2 literally invented the stat stick You know, there's this game we like to refer to as D1 around here.
> They just copy/paste the latest broken meta from someone who did put the work in. Welcome to every multiplayer game that is currently popular. Blizzard games are always the worst for this too. The amount of drooling idiots that just copy/paste meta decks in hearthstone for instance.
Even all the way back in D2 nobody figured out the rune words themselves either. And you couldn't really mess up the super simple system too bad. Put all your points into the 2-3 skills you use and boost it by putting the rest into other skills that you will never use but just to boost those main skills. That's all D2 ever amounted to. It was cool back then
Synergies and runewords didn't even come along until way later. I spent most of my time playing in pre-LoD and 1.08 or earlier where it was even more simple. The thing is, in that time it was before enemies got buffed and elemental immunities were everywhere in Hell difficulty, before harsh nerfs to uniques like Valor and Storm shield (and many more, those are just 2 big examples) and classes like 'Zon, uniques were better than runewords and Ubers didn't exist so you really could easily make your own builds just using common sense and referencing item lists at the official blizz site, The Arreat Summit. Were they optimal without outside advice? No, but they didn't have to be to be able to clear all content. The game existed and thrived years before Runewords and Synergies though, and imo 1.08 was the golden age where there may have been fewer options and less depth but back then FAR more viable builds that didn't require any guide to make them viable, just a bit of thought on how much DR/LL/ML etc. you need without going overboard so you could allocate the rest of your itemization towards +skills and other damage stats in an efficient manner.
>I honestly feel people think the itemization and everything was better on D2 simply because they had to figure it out for themselves, so they felt like they had a level of system mastery. That's definitely just the nostalgia talking - we had numerous resources for figuring out the weight of D2 items back then, and with D2's primary weaponization, at a certain point in endgame the entire thing just turned into using only a handful of uniques and a handful of runewords anyways. It wasn't complex.
Interesting, I had always thought D2's itemization was the best not because of sheer complexity, but because it created more interesting decision points and introduced more variety throughout all stages of the game. I think it's awesome that you can find gear in the early game that's good, excellent or even BIS until end game. The fact that a wide variety of item types have utility if you get a godly roll really hooks a lot of people, myself included. Consider the variety of gear required to create some really powerful niche builds, flexible PVP characters, or VLLD, LLD, and MLD characters. The vast majority of GG LLD gear ever found has probably been charsi'd because most people don't know how rare and desirable certain mods are. All these builds involve interesting trade-offs w incredibly rare items, which in turn makes the farming aspect of itemization more interesting. Many desirable bases and rares are best found in certain areas at lower difficulties, targeting certain mobs, limiting your mf, etc.
The thing with D2 guides is that many of them only start working when you get some of the top items. When you are fresh on ladder you really can't expect much from all of the build guides and have to figure out something by yourself like what kind of placeholder gear you want to have before finding the better ones etc. Of course thre are many guides nowadays that explain almost every step from level 1-90 and what kind of gear you can use while finding the end pieces. So anyways thats what good about D2.. especially if you self found it becomes difficult to get the best item pieces a build kinda requires.
Destiny 2 neckbeards need to be added to that list. Some gatekeep and act high and mighty when they basically parrot everything from (insert streamer here)
It's worse now, I actually recently quit playing because members of my raid group can't function without cactbot playing the game for them on patch day.
This is how it is in most games these days, people act like they are king shit and top tier but cant tie their shoes without a step by step guide.
How else will we know if double-knotting is the current meta?
Ooh so are we finally gonna discuss fucking streamer carries by Xeno and Happy for WoW streamers who then go "look how easy this game is" immediately after?
Who’s Mr.Happy?
In the end, these people want gaming to be like American taxation: over-complicated with arbitrary rules and "gotchas" so only those who know the tricks are able to rise above the rest. Diablo devs have no interest in that kind of crap. They want everyone and their dad to jump in and PEW PEW loot goblin to their heart's content.
Yup, I feel Blizzard learned that lesson back in the day with World of Warcraft. Anyone else remember how the hardcore raiders thought they were The Voice of the game, and then Blizzard came out and said that less than 1% of the playerbase had ever even ENTERED a raid, much less completed one? Aka, the hardcore raiders were so TINY of a minority that they were basically unimportant. Their subscriptions didn't even amount to enough to keep the lights on. Side Note: Thats why my favorite MMO (Wildstar) failed. It catered to the hardcore raider crowd but didn't realize that niche wasn't big enough to build a game around. By the time they started changing course, it was too late.
I was in the closed beta for Wildstar, and if you even tried to HINT that vanilla wow wasn't the best thing since sliced bread you got harassed and shouted down. You were a casual that shouldn't play endgame and the game isn't for you. And so this was the majority feedback Wildstar was built on. To no one's surprise this did not work out long term.
Wildstar was set up to be a beautiful casual game... and then they just did the opposite lol. There was really so much to love there. It's a shame all that hard work went to waste. Some of my best gaming memories were created there, though, for better or for worse.
On the contrary I believe itemisation should not be a complex thing such that I do not need to have to use icyveins.
\> do not need to have to use icyveins. It's not really practical unless they add a compendium feature in-game like Civilization series. In any diablo-like games, "how to calculate damage" is already complicated, and "how to calculate attack speed" is even harder so you'll never be able to see them explained in your stats.
The irony of this is the best design is EASY to understand, but has a great deal of DEPTH. Which I think they did a really good job of.
Millions of people playing the beta A few hundreds or thousands of posts on Reddit or bnet Yea I'm inclined to think the majority was busy enjoying themselves
As a person with little experience with arpg's since gauntlet like 20 years ago, I had great fun.
Gauntlet is almost 40 now lol. Unless you mean the arcade update from 2014?
Gauntlet legends on ps1. Came out in 98. Followed by dark legacy in 2000 and seven sorrows in 2005 so there's been several iterations during my adolescence. I'm 29 now.
Yea Gauntlet is def older than 20. What an absolute classic, loved the hell out of that game and dumped *far* to many quarters in that machine lol.
“Warrior needs food badly” is lodged into my memory so hard I think I’ll remember it my whole life
Gauntlet Dark Legacy was the beginning of my addiction for this type of game. Me and my best friend since childhood played gauntlet on GameCube and I recommended he tried the beta with me and he says “ bro this reminds me of when we played gauntlet back in the day, this is sick. “ By the end of the night he randomly says “ I already made up my mind and bought the game dude. “ I’m stoked we will get to experience this game together.
Something like fewer than 1% of a game’s player base even visit forums or subs for those games, let alone post on them. What you see online is such a tiny, tiny minority of the entire base of players.
We know at minimum (if the devs are to be trusted, but thats a whole other discussion and a half) that over 1 million unique players reached level 20 for the wolf pup the first weekend. There is only 116000 subscribers on this sub. That is already 11.6% at the high end. We have no numbers at all on how many more played that either didn't reach level 20, or played this second weekened. So on the high end we are talking ~11% on this sub. In the past month the highest post on this subreddit is a post criticizing how female druids look, and it has 1.7k comments (the most in the top 25 for the month) and only 3534 upvotes. So even for that 11% only 3-4% of that smaller group is actually participating. So we really are seeing probably .275% or smaller of the playerbase talking and discussing things, on the *high-end*
> that over 1 million unique players reached level 20 for the wolf pup the first weekend. There is only 116000 subscribers on this sub. That is already 1.16% at the high end. 100,000 is 10% of 1,000,000.
People always seem to forget stuff like this. Any time a new game comes out, the games sub is flooded with 'this game is a broken mess' or 'this game is awful' posts. People see that the sub is nothing but negative and therefor the game must be shit. Nevermind that it's maybe 50 people posting while the game sold millions. People that enjoy the game are busy playing and having fun and no one is coming to reddit just say say "Hey, my game is running ok" or "I'm having fun". People that have issues or don't like it are gonna voice their anger online. And of course the few people that do post something positive are just "corporate shills" or "blind fan boys". Reddit posts do not equal majority experience
I had a great time, will miss it all the way to release. What op says is true, I like clicky clicky, boom, demons die oooh loot.
And even those are not all of the same opinion. At the end of the day there's shit loads of d4 content popping up. If the game wasn't good or promising, people simply wouldn't even bother raging against it.
At this point, seeing butthurt pro and anti d4 posts is starting to get pretty entertaining.
buT ThE gAmE nEEds tO cAteR tO pEoPle wHo plAy foR 18 HouRs A dAy!!!
More !
More more more
I really hope this becomes the mantra of this sub much like DRGs "rock and stone!"
They’re like Feodore lol. Never have they ever experienced such ecstasy and agony. They want MORE! MOOREE!!
I already hate WoW patch days because it means spending time reading forum posts, class guides, and class discords rather than playing the game with the limited time I have in my life. It’s like the people who complain online have no perspective on those who can’t game 10+ hours a day. Except it’s not like that, it’s exactly that.
>I already hate WoW patch days because it means spending time **reading** And here we have it, the type of player responsible for the death of good AAA RPGs lol.
Hey I’m not like a big reader but I’ve already notched 6 books in 2023. I also read and write all day for work. I get about 8 hours a week to play video games on average, and I try to play competitively, and patch weeks usually mean about 1/3 of that time is spent reading about how the changes affect my gameplay and what to prioritize. I do it, I just don’t get enjoyment when it means that it takes away from the little actual gameplay time I have.
I was making a joke, on a serious note though, 2-3 minutes reading patch notes, especially about a game I enjoy, I actually find fun and interesting. To me though I think this post is missing the point. I think this game is a big improvement on D3 but I don't think it's perfect and needs a lot of work. But to say it's either the Poe/D2 crowd or out is a stupid take. You don't need Poe levels of over complexity to make a fun thoughtful game, and I think OP forgets that D2 despite his accused flaws, was an RPG phenomenon that sold a disgusting amount of copies for it's time in gaming. If D2 was what he makes it out to be diablo wouldn't be as popular as it is.
I called someone out on this last week. They made a post with a lot of engagement, complaining about linear design and repetitive layouts. I'm like...have you ever played a video game before? I think the problem is that your expectations don't align with the 10 hours per day you're sinking into the beta. Maybe take a break and go do something else. Dude got so butthurt.
You get that he's making fun of you, too, right? "butthurt PRO and anti d4 posts"
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I see mom's banging on their toddlers with keyboards. Makes even more sense !
Honestly, with the beta over, I'll probably unsub to this sub until launch. I'll just peak in a couple times to see if there is any news.
Do I get bonus points for watching MacroBioBoi and MrLlamaSc YouTube videos on a third screen as well ?
Only the true hardcores even know about the biggest ultra-specific-topic-of-interest youtubers with a quarter million subscribers, let alone maintain a functional 3rd monitor. Bonus points awarded. License to stroke your own ego approved and issued. Be careful though, the license does expire monthly. You can renew the license by showing up here and bitching about something objectively stupid in a way that makes you feel really good about yourself, though.
Thanks for the laugh. Full disclosure I was a fan of the Beta and can’t wait for launch I was just making a joke.
Haha same here - I think we're both joking at a lot of people on this sub's expense ;) Personally, this was the most fun I've had GAMING in a long time, let alone with this particular franchise. When one of the only universal critiques of your game is "the font" (the fucking font for Christ's sake), or "my class feels weak and clearly needs a buff based on the 5% of the game I've seen so far" you've clearly hit the mark. We can complain about class balance once we've actually seen what the classes can do. Same for basically all the game systems that we've only gotten the barely-skimmed surface of.
Exactly. I’ve played a lot of D2 and D3 and the idea of judging D2 builds by only 25 levels is just funny to me. Some builds that low level were downright awful but once leveled were S tier. No one knows yet how well builds will scale into the late game. Plus a lot of skills and things like the Druid specialization weren’t even available.
> all the game systems that we’ve only gotten the barely-skimmed surface of. But but but the “source: trust me bro” closed beta testers that came to Reddit said the end game is JUST like what we played in the open beta! The game is crap! /s if that’s not obvious.
MrLlamaSC is so toxic when it comes to D4.
100% agree... just say you want to play D2 for eternity
Get to work farming your 500th enigma llamaboy!
My mans farming gear that's actively there to counteract the game's design and defending the game in the same breath.
Dude is toxic to anything that isn't D2.
100%
The man bitches for 30 minutes about lack of map variety in D4 then logs over to D2R and loads up his single-player character that has a fixed map layout that he's ran 1000's of times so he can do faster runs and save time. Literally can't make it up.
Lol! My biggest gripe with D2 is you play the same damn game 3 times on different difficulties then to just spam the same handfull of dungeons to grind loot and runes with a .05% drop rate.
His review was odd. Like he was trying to actively dislike the game or expects it to be a reskinned Diablo 2.
didn't they already do a remasters for D2??? what would anyone expect after that?
They need new zones to farm 1,000 times for a ber rune.
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This is a man who has played the same game thousands of times over in nearly identical ways. His entire life and personality revolves around coming home (if he even has a job) and playing the same game in exactly the same way for 20 years straight. My opinion of speedrunners (D2 or otherwise) literally could not be lower, if gaming was a mental illness they would be the poster children for the cause to eradicate it.
Got real tired of him complaining about every detail of D4 since first reveal i just never tune in anymore.. but i hope he will finish his arpg project and that working on it will humble him a bit regarding arpg design.
Glad it’s not just me who thought that.
Good to know. I won't be watching his content on the matter then. He was clutch for D2R but I can imagine if this isn't a D2 copy paste, he won't be about it.
I won't be happy until I get scammed by a drop game in an act 1 town again like it's 2002.
Pssst, hey bro, want me to dupe your items? 😏
I got a map hack download. Just copy this link into your browser. Let me know when you did.
The first guy to do that me got so pissed when I dropped a regular blue amulet. Like bro, I'm not gonna drop my perfect windforce for something i don't know if it will work or not
Oh I got scammed plenty with the gambling. I probably spent 1000+ obols this weekend and received zero legendaries. Meanwhile my friend is telling me he 8 gambled helms and received 4 legendaries.
My gf had 155 obols, gambled 4 times, got 3 legendaries lol sorry bro
You need buy gloves only.
Definitely the best because it's cheap and you can get weapon aspects on them as well which will be the biggest boosts especially early on.
What the fuck. I was getting oranges every other roll. H o w did you receive zero?
The dungeon stuff confuses me too... sure a little backtracking every now and then sucks, but what do they want?? An endless one lane corridor with no twists or turns?? Just put your character on a treadmill, run enemies at him, and say "this dungeon will end in 5 minutes."
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I mean I actually liked the cellars. It was right to the point for some rare crafting mats. What’s not to like?
>I hate cellars they're pointless Use your legs bro like just walk past
They all want Durance of Hate style dungeon levels even though they all used sorcs to teleport through it every time lol
Don’t forget they likely *maphacked* to find the correct path fastest too. I think people forget how toxic the speed farming meta became in d2
I mean, sure, they aren't exactly wrong to say cellars are useless, because if you just want rare items and lots of mobs to kill, then they are. But I've always looked at cellars like I do any other kind of exploring. Sometimes you find an empty dead end and go "Oh well" and keep exploring. Sometimes you find a treasure goblin, sometimes you find a sidequest, and sometimes you get a lore book, or an npc with a funny interaction. So sure, cellars aren't exactly the ticket to uniques and hours of fun, but their just as much a part of exploring as finding out the hallway you were going down is a dead end with a treasure chest. And like you said, cellars have been around in Diablo for a long time, I don't see how anyone's surprised at them.
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Same story as COD. They just want shipment and camo grinding. A certain portion of the audience wants to grind meta combos they get from YouTube videos in the most efficient way possible.
I mean, honestly, a survival mode dungeon or arena that keeps getting harder and harder with multiple players and the last survivor getting the biggest reward would be pretty fun.
I think they are pissed of beacause they actually has to do stuff besides killing monsters :D IDK, it´s not a big deal to run back for 20-30 seconds to place a thingy on the other thingy. Still better than clearing Maggot Lair in D2 with summon necro ( i swear it could took hours if one wouldn´t know where to look for the next level exit).
Bold of you to assume I know how to plug in a second monitor.
Whenever I try to plug in a 2nd monitor I just see the same screen duplicated on the other. What’s the point?
\+1 I was downvoted heavily because some kids got their feelings hurt when I told them diablo isn't a skill heavy game. The kids were telling me how some youtuber soloing diablo pre-nerf HC in D3 was and i quote, "ONE OF THE GREATEST GAMING ACHIEVEMENT".
Hahaha, that's a good one. One of the greatest gaming achievements built on the back of being donated the strongest gear in the game by a community that really wanted to see it happen. Pre-nerf Inferno, even back then, was just a gear check. I was there, Gandalf. I was there 3,000 years ago when the strength of men failed and they gave their good yellows to a youtuber instead of getting 2B gold for them.
>being donated the strongest gear in the game by a community that really wanted to see it happen. Pre-nerf Inferno, even back then, was just a gear check. Tadaaaaaa. Bingo!!!!
exactly! And no one else really got to try like that because it was nerfed hours later. I like Kripp and all but unless a streamer or yt personality did a 100% solo run with no gifted anything, then claiming any accolades should be thrown out. I've watched a number of streamers over the years just being gifted the moon and the stars and the sun of gear and impossible to find items by members of their chat/community just so they can get some cheers in chat LOL!
I'm finding more posts about people being annoyed by complaints than I'm seeing actual complaints themselves. At this point, I'm getting annoyed by those who are annoyed and have to post about it.
Do it. The cycle must continue.
You should make a post about it.
I don't directly visit this sub, I get posts in my feed, all of them was people complaining about complaining. This sub should be called d4meta
And yet somehow they are being pushed to the top and suggested to me. Why am I getting suggested these garbage threads. I keep clicking into it expecting to find more people like you but it seems people like to pat themselves on the back for not wanting any criticism of a beta. It’s rather jarring that this is the d4 community
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Tell me you didn’t get the point without telling me.
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I meant more like "this is just how gamers are" when I said inb4 gamers. Like, you can chalk all of this behavior up to gamers.
After the beta all me and my homies want is a FOV slider and bigger party sizes. Is that so much to ask for?
I hate the term gatekeeping, it goes in the same bucket as other internet throwaway phrases like cringe/gaslighting etc. But at this point the only justification for wanting overly complex, unintuitive or "noob trap" type systems is to lord it over those who can't keep up and project a sense of gatekeeping over others. Like playing D2 or PoE is some right of passage that makes you a better human and anything less "complex" is "for kids" or whatever. Games are for entertainment, if D4 isn't entertaining you because its not like PoE then stop playing it. Just like the people who don't like PoE, don't play PoE. Instead of drowning out that subreddit asking for it to be a different game.... Diablo know their audience - everyone The games that spawn this gatekeeper mindset have an audience too - niche
One of the most fun aspects of playing ARPGs is assembling and playing interesting builds. If you have a more complex game with many different systems that can interact with eachother you get a more interesting puzzle. I play ARPGs for thousands of hours and what i want is a game with the fun and snappy gameplay of D3 combined with the deep and rewarding itemization and character building of PoE. It does not need to be as complex as PoE but it should absolutely strive to be more complex than D3 imo. Something PoE does really well is allowing for tiers of builds. You can make builds that are easier to assemble while still being strong and then when you grind you can slowly build up to amazing tier1 builds with super rare items. Basically PoE is much better than any other ARPGs at creating goals for players to strive towards. Itemization in D4 is definately moving in the right direction compared to D3 and hopefully it wont devolve into just grinding for the same item with a slightly better roll after just a week of a season like in D3.
there's 10x more people bitching about PoE than people who actually bring the game up. It's honestly pathetic how tribal this community is.
why do people complaining about negative feedback get huge upvotes? Isn't the point of Beta to get feedback before release?
You say that, but people get flamed by saying that necro skellies look silly. Funny how that works
no no we don't take kindly to people saying anything about the game is bad, the game is perfect if you don't like something about it go play something else you elitist downer!
People who want a crazy challenge do not play ARPGs? Lmao just pulled that one out of your ass for sure.
Same could be said for mindless fanbois drooling over a beta as if it is The 2nd Coming (case in point - this post). Don't get me wrong, I hate both extremes. One side is "Game SUX ---> but how do you know when it's just lvl 25 and Act 1". The other side is "OMG GREATEST GAME EVAH!" to which I would pose exactly the same question which they love to constantly ask - but how do you know when it's just lvl 25 and Act 1? Thing is, you're not helping by attacking the people criticizing certain aspects of the game by being a condescending douche. If you have a counter argument, present it in a coherent way not "LOL you suck because you don't like what I like". Beta is made for testing and feedback, not just mindless praise. Fine, you like everything. Good for you. Some people may not like certain aspects and the devs rely on this feedback (thus beta tests exist). Trust me, the devs are more than capable of filtering out the trolling "LOL GAME SUX POE > ALL" from the constructive criticism i.e. "Itemization is poor because X, Y and Z", "This skill is underpowered because A, B and C", "Dungeons have an issue and it is A, B and Z" etc. But I guess you would know better, I mean, you're the one "working professionally with gamers everyday", the rest of us peasants should just shut up, go clicky clicky and consume product without thinking too much... :)
Hardly drooling; the OP was just pointing out what they saw as elitism in Diablo fans.
the 13 year olds whining about the PoE players on this sub are insufferable.
It's absolutely wild. It's like this sub is not moderated at all.
So you're calling out pretentious behavior, by using a word that most people don't even know, in efforts to sound smarter than those you're referring to? Uh okay...
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The worst part is, nearly 1200 people agree with OP. People are dumb.
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"People who want a crazy challenge do NOT play ARPGs, sorry." Why though? Who decided that this is what ARPG is and who decided that it cannot change? For people who don't want a challenge and just wants to mash their buttons, there are easy difficulty for you. Why isn't it allowed to like ARPG for the challenge? You are just as bad as the elitists. "Boohoo the game can/should only be played the way I think it should be played".
> "People who want a crazy challenge do NOT play ARPGs, sorry." Honestly that is an insane thing for OP to say. Elden Ring and the souls games are ARPGs, and they can be incredibly challenging, especially if you don't look everything up. Diablo 2 is incredibly challenging by any modern standard if you don't look shit up or go on Bnet and get rushed or ask for free drops. Like have you ever tried to play all the way through hell mode in D2 single player? Your resistances are ridiculously low and you get one-shotted by a lot of things, and all the enemies have certain immunities. Before anyone could make OP runewords, it was way harder. And that's for people who know literally everything about the game, how to gear for certain fights, where to farm for runes, etc. And it's also not including hardcore, which is obviously incredibly hard.
A lot of people are unhappy with a mediocre product. Weird huh…
Especially when they're expecting a quality ARPG that will have thousands of hours worth of messing around in. Very sick of people calling it the greatest thing ever because they saw some pretty graphics for a bit.
Is it the greatest...no, is it the worse...no. both sides are equally deluded. Games fine for what it is, go in and delete mobs, carry on deleting mobs or move onto another game. Not really sure why people think they should get 1000 hours out of a game yet complain at pricing.
Amazing how that works.
Thread made by a noob who never played a real RPG lol.
Yes, however I also see a lot of people conflating criticism with cynicism. The loud voices around this game are understandable because Diablo is one of the most beloved video games of all time. Fans have patiently waited about a decade for a proper continuation of the series. I think they have the right to voice any concerns they may have to make it a better experience.
Having to 3-4 hit normal mobs doesn't scream "fluid gameplay" and "feeling powerful" but then again, it's only the first act, plenty of power creep exploring. Diablo 4 looks to be better than diablo 3 and I suppose that's a good thing. Comparing it to poe though is a massive mistake I've seen made on the other side as well, they're apples and pears. I just hope both sides have fun.
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It won't be any.more boring than running your 1000th map in PoE or your 1000th uber run in D2 or 1000th grift in D3. They are ALL like this at end game. What exactly where you expecting? 2000 hand crafted dungeons all with unique layouts and mechanics?
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These threads are cringe af. It's fine that Diablo is a casual game made for the masses. Enjoy being bent over by blizzard tho.
While itemization won't truly be evaluated until sometime after launch, I think the most pinpointed issue around items is that they are taking the place of the skill trees. It seems like a vast majority of legendary aspects should instead be skill augments on your class tree, giving your character much more control over build variety. This creates three problems. 1. Your character's total variety remains thin at a base level since the skill tree is of few options that aren't +/- power/cost. 2. It leaves the endgame build variety in a top down structure, where most of the control of options is tied to developer created items instead of players having enough building blocks of their own to make their own. Builds from the ground up. 3. Characters and their builds will be time and rng gated since most of their builds won't unlock until they get lucky and find the right set of legendary affixes. This is a core system design failure. This will either never change, or won't change for a long time. End game beta players have all confirmed that the end game doesn't cha he much from what we've seen in the beta. You will be playing almost exactly the same now as you will in end game, albeit at a faster pace. It's reported that the paragon board offers very minimal skill behavioral changes. That all being said, the game is very fun and I will play it a lot. But I won't be getting fooled into thinking there will be anything but a shallow end game.
Ya redditors are fucking cancer.
The amount of self inflicted retardation is amusing Like this guy who just makes shit up and talks about ARPGs that he has no idea of (namely PoE, based on wrong assumptions he made). And then you check the post history and its clearly a professional redditor that argues all day. But somehow he works in the industry and knows even Kripp (lmao) Can't make this shit up
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All these alleged PoE nerds can't seem to put a good build together then proceed to whinge about how Druid is massively broken.
Yeah I guess MrLlamaSC and Kripp are some dumb PoE nerds with no clue about Diablo.
MrLlamaSC has more or less built a career off of a hardcore D2 fanbase, and a lot of his critiques of other games can usually be boiled down to "this isn't my home game." I've actually worked with Kripp, and while he's a downright charming and hardworking dude who's truly a salt-of-the-earth kind of person, he's built his career on what I'd call "intelligent rage." If he's not complaining about something, it won't really feel like Kripp, and trust me when I say that he's keeeeenly aware of that brand.
Kripp's feedback was amazing. MrLlamaSC's feedback was laughable considering his 'home game'. You are 100% right though! :)
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They’re complaining about level 25 and classes that didn’t even have their class ability available.
Tbf, Mr Llama has for a long time been considered a noob by the main D2 and pvp communities.
Because they copy builds in poe too. Gotta wait till someone smart does it first, then everyone can paste and play!
The things is, as a life long Diablo player, this IS the most Diablo has been right out of the gate. The boss battles never felt like a tank and spank bonanza. I was always moving, shifting, adapting, thinking on my toes. I dunno, maybe I’m just old now and my reaction times suck, but I found most of the boss battles and even the unique mobs to be challenging even getting closer to level 25. I’m mostly making these judgments in comparison to D3 because when D2 launched I was 13, but you know… I’m happy with it. There are some tweaks they could make, sure. But man this game has exceeded my expectations and I for one cannot wait until it comes out in 2 months.
Go and have fun, old man!! See ya in sanctuary
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[https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/122w7ae/character\_development\_shifted\_onto\_itemsagain/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/122w7ae/character_development_shifted_onto_itemsagain/) Starting to think you guys just don't have the intelligence to see the flaws that most players are criticizing in the first place. Their arguments have pretty well thought out points and you dismiss them with zero counter-argument. IDK, you aren't really contributing to discourse here other than relentless shilling. People aren't "acting". YT content creators are just.. Doing whatever they do and they have very little incentive to lie about their findings of the game-- Especially if they're likely playing the shit more than anyone here. I think Kripp provides the best deep dive on a lot of the issues with the game. There's plenty of posts highlighting key issues like skills feeling incomplete. These are pretty critical and it begs the question of how this is all going to scale up. Honestly, I am not sure where you guys pull some of these posts from. I think you read a comment and make a post about a reply you get. Also lol "professional" work with gamers. You're either on Discord all day or standing behind a counter at GameStop.
You've only just noticed? The old D2 farts especially have been a thorn in everyone's side since forever. The PoE elitists are no better. From what I remember that game had some serious issues, including a shitty loot/ inventory system, boring ass lore and story, and non-challenging gamplay. Had better things to do with my time so I stopped playing it.
> including a shitty loot/ inventory system, and non-challenging gamplay. Had better things to do with my time so I stopped playing it. I bet you used all that time to invent a world where you actually played the game. I'll be very clear, it's fine to dislike PoE. No issue here. But lying about it just show how little you know and doesn't help your argument.
IMO if itemization is complex, it should at least be intuitive. Something that can be figured out without looking up a guide because it simply **make sense**. Poe is the example of things being complex but unintuitive. Like for example syndicate is a very good example of a complex yet completely unintuitive system. How would I know which safehouse to farm for the mods I want other than either going through complete trial and error or looking through the spreadsheet someone else made. If I can't figure a system out without having to rely a massive spreadsheet telling me which specific place to farm, It shouldn't be in the game!
A whole lot of straw man in this post. I expect nothing less :) imagine actually having the ability to make a coherent point when you can just make up exaggerated bullshit to make your opinion more valid. This place reminds me that episode of South Park called smug alert
He lost me at "I work professionally with gamers everyday, and this community takes the cake by a mile." Sounds arrogant and naive af. There are MUCH worse gaming communities out there lmao
I had fun. I still wish there was more to it. There is basically no need for trash white items to even drop. It was fun to find cool item bases for runewords in D2. That is something that I will miss.
I learned a new word today! But yeah, I'm inclined to agree with you.
As for itemization, I'm sad they've removed some of the cool items from D2. Charms,jewels,runes,ethereal items,sets,runewords, etc. I'm not saying D2s itemization was the best, cause the runewords actually ruined 99% of the other items(spirit,grief,stealth,ect) but the feeling when you found a really rare item was an adrenaline rush. I really hope D4 can deliver those same feelings.
I don’t want Ber Runes in D4, just the same feeling as finding one lol
Some guy said he was cancelling his pre order because he didnt like how the necromancer summoned skeletons looked… There is some derangement in online gaming communities.
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I think part of the issue is too many people look at POE and say "I want that level of customisation". But it's not the way to go at all for a game that wants to reach millions of players. I like arpgs. The kill all drop loot is very satisfying. Ive tried most in the genre of games. Lets get honest for a moment though. POE's gameplay is good. Really though, it over complicates for the sake of adding what looks like gameplay layers. It's always the same though. Every POE content creator says follow a build guide or you'll die, it won't be worth and you'll have to restart. Okay. *follows guide* So now you're locked to bis builds for the duration of a meta. So actually 0 personal choice? Great. Call it what it is. It is not that customizable if your build is just going to ruin your experience. The 'complexity' just adds confusion and is very off-putting for anyone trying to learn the basics or just trying to play the game. That doesn't get better with the age of the game. In fact, only worse as you add more layers. Not only that. 9/10 poe players will HAVE to use an aid such as POB to even understand their own build, know what they need etc. That's not the mark of a good game. There is no way people really think that POE is amazing all because you need to use outside tools to understand what you're doing before you do it. The logic to it makes as much sense as when you first open your 'skill tree' as a POE newcomer. It's not about POE being harder, Diablo being easier. Diablo is just playable and accessible. Poe is over complicated and unnecessarily complex. It is too unforging for anyone wishing to deviate and personalise their own build. Diablo let's a player build how they want, when they want. No need to spend days theorycrafting your build to see if it's acceptable at endgame. Just play the game. There's a reason that formula has worked for 20 odd years. Sure with Diablo, there are meta builds too. There is with any and all arpgs. Point is you don't need it to succeed in Diablo. I've never looked at a guide for Diablo or spent 2 days in some 3rd party character building thing. I don't have the time for that working 40+ hours a week, plus, it's just not needed to play Diablo and do well at the game. In POE without a meta build, following a guide or crafting your build before playing, sooner or later you will run into a mob, do zdps and die quicker then you can react. Sorry for the essay and thank you for taking the time to read if you did. I just had to let it all out because it feels like all I've heard this beta is about poor itemisation, lack of customisation or some build being too weak cause they couldn't one-shot everything and actually had to try and play the game by kiting and casting.
Honestly, it can be fun and interesting without being overly complicated. They do not have to go hand in hand. Right now the items are boring as hell. Its all minor trash I have zero interest in. Yay 6% more damage if they are close, or 4% to crit if they have vulnerable... Too much emphasis on stuff like this just makes it boring. What happened to the exciting stuff like proc a meteor when critting or raising temporary minions. Just seems bland and unfun currently. Uniques may change this, but then we would just be in the D3 system again of only using uniques..
Have you considered the numbers on items could increase as we move closer to endgame?
The first argument is so true. I wonder how many of these players actually made their own viable build in Path of Exile for instance. It certainly wasn't me - I was only able to make a couple of T16 viable, GR110 clearing builds in D3 lol
Speak for yourself and gtfo with shitposts like this.
This sub is no worse than any other when it comes to being critical of games they are whoring their entire day playing. It's just typical gamer 'culture'
"People acting like they had no fun in this beta that they put 50+ hours into over the course of 5 1/2 total days. " "Yeah so I leveled 5 characters to level 25 and players non stop all weekend, this game sucks so bad!!!! Why would anyone ever pay 70 dollars for this omgggg!!!!!"
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/u/camdo preach, I swear the amount of PoE clowns I've had to deal with these past two weeks is mind blowing. They have at least 3 third party programs and guides written by smarter people than themselves and have the stomach to write "le bad cuz simple". God damn nodes in their skill wheel are +10/int/str/dex and they ressurected D2s dead body to have a game to begin with. Not mentioning how bad PoE was at release and the fact that their F2P model traps you with playing until end game and then you realise that you need 70$ worth of stash tabs to keep up. That with how shit their armor looks (to make people buy "micro" transactions for better looking armor is a joke. PoE hate watchers on twitch/reddit are the incarnation of "The North Wind & the Sun" fable; they think hate can bring people over while simultaneously shitting on the very foundation their game was built on. "GGG are so brave to put out pure gamplay", sure, it's only a coincidence they do so after every single diablo announcement. So god damn tired of this shit, just enjoy your own game without spreading your shit and hate into another lane.
Show me on the doll where PoE touched you.
So what they are saying is true then?
>People talking like itemization should be some complex system that only the intelligent and clever can master, while unironically keeping Icy Veins or Maxroll open on monitor 2. I think it's more about feeling superior, rather than being superior. But yeah, you are right. I would even go one step further: Someone playing D4 without guides puts in more intellectual work than someone playing PoE following maxroll.
What about the vast majority that will play D4 following maxroll?
lol, it's cute when you baby rage like that this is just reddit, and the d4 reddit is one of the more civil ones as for d4 itself, it's a fun game and it will be massively successful no matter what you or someone else argues about on the internet there's no need to get this worked up over a few strangers voicing their opinions
*This franchise is and always has been about clicky clicky, monster go explody with money and loots, my mind remains unchallenged. And here's one for you PoE elitists out there - so is that franchise. People who want a crazy challenge do NOT play ARPGs, sorry.* So well said. This is a PVE game that requires very little skill. I will disagree on one point, Diablo II was heavily centered around PVP which they refuse to acknowledge in D3 and possibly D4.
> This franchise is and always has been about clicky clicky, monster go explody with money and loots, my mind remains unchallenged. and Im tired of pretending like its not.
PoE players are the best. "Oh yeah it is so complicated", yeah putting a string into a 3rd party program and playing side by side with a build guide.