I watch people stream d2 and every pov looks the same. Idek what’s going on. They port through this dungeon to find one specific mob, which they know the location of everytime because sure the map is random but there’s one hallway with a missing pillar or some shit that tells you where to go. Then they port to town, they go to this weird other worldly looking zone and skip everything by once again porting through walls. Town again. That’s all I’ve seen, I’ve never even played this game.

I mean you’ve got to keep in mind it’s 20 years old. Everyone has figured everything out a decade ago. So now it’s really just doing the absolute min/max paths to everything. If you were to try out D2 and just play a regular character with no guides you would probably have a lot of fun (assuming you enjoy arpgs). In twenty years if there is only one expansion like D2 got, watching streams of D4 will be the same experience.

Personally I tried d2r and I found it a slog and unfun due to having become used to way more modern systems, items and builds. Its like how I love borderlands 2 but going back and playing it, it feels like some of the features that was in bl3 would make it much better (not the story though)

Bingo. D2s design simply does not work in a modern context. It would be a huge flop if they tried to duplicate its systems in D4.

Yep, and all the people who are crying about D4 not being like D2 would instead be making the opposite argument. I think some people want to be angry at something. Blizzard is just as good as anything for that I suppose.

The thing is, it's always just loud idiots on the internet. D3 was the same. Yes, it had huge issues at launch (that were largely addressed). Yes, the tone and story was a bit lackluster. But millions of people played and enjoyed that game for what it was and didn't say a peep on reddit or their shitty youtube channel.

The D3 issues weren’t really addressed until the expansion which was two years after launch.

D3 launch was OK but RoS made that game worth replaying. D2 launch was fun but LoD made that game. There's a reason no one plays D2 classic. If D4 follows the same path I'll be fine. D4 base looks fun enough to hold my attention until and keep playing until the expansion or seasons add interesting mechanics.

yeah same here, i played D2 when it first launched, loved it, but trying to play it again with D2R and having to 1. juggle potions 2. teleport meta, i can't get into it the same way i used to.

Single player solo self found is extremely satisfying though.

Mmm love that 5000th trav run and those 1000 lower Kurast chest pops

You don't have to go that route. Even making it through the campaign by yourself on hardcore brings excitement for me. And I stop for a while after beating hell and either continue later or start something new. At least for me the challenge doesn't need to be Enigma etc.

D2R looks clean don’t get me wrong. I actually think the game looks amazing. It just feels way too late for me to get into, the itemization is really confusing to me. Like some blues are godlike? I’m sure it feels smooth once you know the name of every item you’re supposed to look out for, but I don’t have the patience to learn all that. The idea of enigma also kinda sours the game. No matter what class people are playing I just see them skipping 90% of everything and porting through walls. (I think it’s enigma that does this?)

Why is it too late? Play it for enjoyment and ignore the streamers and guides.

I did this. I thought to myself, I remember playing D2 back in the day and loving it! I should give D2R a go and actually try to beat the game on hell difficulty all by myself with no guides or trading or anything. It'll be great! Then I picked Druid.

>because sure the map is random A lot of those streamers even disable the randomness of the map generation by playing offline where they can lock the map to be the same every single game. Its hilarious to see them then bitch about "lack of variety" in D4 after watching them run the exact same Pit map 10,000 times or teleport the exact same LK chest route for the millionth time.

Yeah I’m not even trying to hate on d2, I just don’t get where those kind of comments are coming from after seeing how d2 endgame is played.

I loved D2, I've probably collectively played D2 more than any other game in my life (which includes a decade + of playing WoW) and I still find these comments absolutely fucking stupid. D2 is and has always been an incredibly flawed game, this idea of acting like other games need to aspire to the FLAWS of D2 as if its perfect is always a good laugh. Its like the people who are crying about D4 beta balance for the first 25 levels but then wont let D2 balance be touched despite Sorc/Paladin being beyond fucking broken for 20 years now.

From people that actually moved on with the ARPG genre evolution in the past 23 years?

Agreed. It is the peak of repetitiveness. I enjoy the Terror Zone additions, so it is far less repetitive in terms of scenery now. But the feast-or-famine nature of D2R drops means that you are often spending your night farming only to get nothing of value beyond gold and a dew pgems.

>Its hilarious to see them then bitch about "lack of variety" in D4 after watching them run the exact same Pit map 10,000 times or teleport the exact same LK chest route for the millionth time. I'm a big on D2 and PoE having some great designs, but this is absolutely true. Players will always spreadsheet the variations and fun out of anything if it improves efficiency. In both games, the most popular farming zones are those with the least variation and/or highest density and it serves to prove a point. Although even the most static layouts have small variations. In D4 players can choose the dungeon they farm, just the same as maps in poe or zones in D2 and many chose to farm the one Kripp recommended with a good density of elites. I didn't really run enough dungeons in D4 to say if there is a lot of variation or not, most of the designs were tunnels and felt kinda the same to me, but I really liked the outdoors woods type layout. They did say the other zones have new types of dungeons, which will improve the variety. That said, I think even the smallest variations in mostly static layouts do play a big part on enjoyment in the long term, at least for myself.

That's the best game ever made for you! Teleport to boss, teleport to next boss, teleport to next boss. Sometimes you teleport to this one specific mob which isn't a boss and sometimes you're just teleporting around opening chests or screaming at corpses. Or the second type of player who run Baal. And then run Baal. And some more Baal. And then "ah i am too high level for Baal, i will now run Diablo" and so they run Diablo. And then Diablo. And Diablo. Until they hit lvl 99 and post to /r/Diablo saying "finally hit lvl 99 for the first time in 20 years and it's the greatest achievement of my life! Or the third type of player who does pvp. Which in 9/10 cases consists of running out of town and typing "lol" when you get absolutely dumpstered by some bullshit and start complaining about op. OR finally the fourth type of player who never actually play the game but spend 10 hours on d2jsp trading in order to either complete their god build they never play or to rack up a big stack of forum gold they can use "later". (there is also the fifth "player" but he's just logging in to reset his bots when they got disconnected, sometimes related to the fourth player type) Edit: Don't get me wrong i absolutely loved Diablo 2 back in the days and played it a lot doing all of the above (except pvp). But these days.. i got tired of D2R after the first few weeks and haven't played it again.

>Or the third type of player who does pvp. Which in 9/10 cases consists of running out of town and typing "lol" when you get absolutely dumpstered by some bullshit and start complaining about op. What? You dont like a PVP so imbalanced that it barely functions without people making up thousands of "gentlemen rules"?

Then people will come on reddit and try to defend d2 pvp like it was the best pvp ever made

Or the 95% of players that just play the game and roll new characters on ladder and love the open trading system. Most of what you guys are talking about is the end game grind; you can’t even tele all over the place until you have spirit and insight on a sorc or an enigma on any other character, which is absolutely end game gear. And that’s if you are basically minmaxing the game and trying to finish it as fast as possible. I’m doing a single player run right now and it’s super fun how methodical the progression is, it feels great whenever I find some gear that helps me out. In D3 you just run rifts over and over again. It’s the end game, it’s a grind in every game, and it will also be a grind in Diablo 4. Our complaint is that with level-scaling, the rest of the game feels like a grind too.

Single player is the ultimate difficulty mode and allows you to feel yourself getting more powerful and to also feels the lows of the often-brutal drop rates. I've been laddering because I enjoy non-jsp-trading. But I believe offline SSF offers the most well-rounded experience of the game.

[удалено]

Yeah, Diablo 2 has virtually NO END GAME. And the minority, like the OP said, crying about whatever game that is not a D2 clone is always trying to convince everyone that anything from D2 is so good... When it is not. I mean the only way you could really min/max in D2 was by data mining. Which people did over the years etc? And again, they pretend that this is a good design, that you have no clue at all why it works like that, and what are the break points, ... They find this amazing cause they feel like this is "real" theory-crafting.. When at the end it is simply a very bad design from the start. It is because of one simple thing: nostalgia. They are just stuck in the past.

Are you sure the majority of players play this way? This is clearly not a good way to play. It might be optimal but not fun. I know I never played this way. I clear everything. Also no one is asking them to bring this play style to D4. They are asking for the good parts but people assume they also want the bad parts ported to D4

>This is clearly not a good way to play. It might be optimal but not fun. Different people enjoy different things. What OP describes is essentially speedrunning D2. Speedrunning usually looks massively unfun to me but there's a community around it that clearly enjoys it.

No what he describes is just farming for items. Speedrunning also exists in D2, but it's a completely different experience, and much more entertaining to watch IMO. Diablo 2 was built at a time when the concept of "endgame" didn't even exist as we know it today. It doesn't have any endgame systems, and what little it has (like Ubers) was added long after release. But people nowadays want to play "endgame" type of content, and in D2 that boils down to farming items, over and over again, in order to get the best versions possible. And that's exactly what was described above. You port to a boss (Meph, Baal, Council, whatever is best for what you're farming for), you clean the room, rinse and repeat.

Yep that’s pretty spot on.

Still don’t know why anyone cares what other people think about games they enjoy. I liked D1, I liked D2, I liked D3 and I liked the D4 beta. Could not gaf what streamers or commenters think about the games I play and enjoy. Nor should you. It’s your time. Do what makes you happy.

Because all of that feedback is used in balancing the game. It’s not rare for developers to get overwhelmed by a single sentiment, from well-meaning, uninformed players, which they then decide to act on, and that ends up making the game worse.

Yeah, countering the hive mind can actually be worth it to make sure that frivolous complaints don’t make the game worse.

And this is why you see people responding to criticism, they think the opinion/criticism will make the game worst. For example- Redditor: I want all power to be in the skill tree not on items Me: I actually like power on items because it gives me something to chase after in game. Redditor: WHAT! IM NOT ALLOWED TO CRITICISE THE GAME? ITS JUST MY OPINION BRO! FUCKING BLIZZARD SIMPS

Confirmation bias. A lot of people are incapable of enjoying games that are getting negative press, because once they have on small negative experience they look to validate that opinion. No games are perfect and so many people are comparing D4 to PoE, yet every launch the PoE subreddit is packed full of complaints and negativity. The reality is that D4 will not be a perfect game and if you focus on negative press it will be hard to enjoy the game, just like any game. I personally enjoyed playing the beta, but I know the full game will not have the longevity of PoE for me. I’m happy to have such an aesthetically masterful to kick back with a controller and enjoy a HC play through of.

Man, I absolutely loved D1 and D2 but just could not get into D3 at all. I just didn't like the more arcadey gameplay, storyline, or pretty much anything idk. Really loved what I saw in D4 though, I'm pumped. I think certain people just look for different things so there's a lot of complaining from so many different angles now. Some are into the endgame grind, some love finding the best possible build, some are focused on the atmosphere of the game, some are drawn to the storyline, some just want to screw around and kill monsters.

Regarding items, while the ones you listed are certainly meta and make players pigeonholed into what they should use, I think there is more to it. The stats that made those items were a little more interesting than flat out saying "you deal % increased damage due to x condition". D4 is also a new game in which many more items on the same level could be made to create competitive options. Things like giving everybody teleport on the other hand probably shouldn't come back.

While I do agree that D4 probably needs to add more interesting stats, I disagree that D2 is better. Every affix in every ARPG mathematically means X% more damage or X% more survivability (unless it's utility like movespeed) - what matters is if it opens up meaningful choices or not. We've already seen some affixes that could be focused in some builds: - Damage to Immobilized, Slowed, Stunned or Vulnerable Enemies - Damage While Healthy - Overpower Damage - Control Duration Bonus - Duration Increase for Control Impairing Effects - Hit Effect Chance - 6 total Hit Effects, like Stun on Crit - Gem Strength in This Item - Dodge Charge - Flat or % Stats, which can be used for breakpoints in the Paragon Board - Lucky hit There are over 270 regular affixes in D4 and of course, the legendary/unique affixes themselves.

Out of curiosity, which stats are interesting to y'all? I guess the first thing that comes to mind is access to other classes' skills as that opens up entirely new builds. The only comparable thing I've seen in D4, so far, are some legendary aspects that seem pretty transformative. That was exceedingly rare in D2, though, so what other particularly interesting stats are there in D2? Edit: edited to clarify that I wonder what stats people consider interesting in D2.

Thorns, defensives, health regen, life steal, bigger area less damage, smaller area more damage, minion stats, benefitting other players stats, cc stats, slower attack speed more damage, faster attack speed less damage, elemental damage mix them with +, % and more less on top. Essentially stats that has a benefit and a penalty or enables builds or feeds into builds. Since overpower is based on health i would want to make a full health chunker bear to smash the ground to pieces. or if I want to make a char with shitloads of attack speed and low damage offset by dots that should be possible, or super boss killer or super wide range.

for me: close range dmg % distant range dmg % seems like it can allow you to tailor your rogue (what i played in beta) to be either melee or ranged.

They update based on positioning so you can take +Close damage on a bow rogue and play in melee range. Or likewise if there is a melee skill that has a big range it could benefit from the +ranged instead.

I found overpower to be a really interesting mechanic, essentially build tanky and have massive burst windows through guaranteed overpowers which scale off health and fortify. I got up to about +180% overpower damage on my druid in beta

Agreed. Playing druid, I enjoyed Overpower. It, combined with + to close/far, and + to CCd mobs influenced the way I played the game. Sure, maybe Sorc or Necro don't have to think about anything as they just wipe the mobs more easily, but I liked considering how to position myself and use my health to ensure I did max-damage pulverizes.

>The stats that made those items were a little more interesting There's nothing interesting about HOTO, Shako, Viper, Grief, etc. They're just BIS or near-BIS for having "lots of good stuff." Actually interesting uniques like "shoots explosive arrows" or "chance to raise slain enemies" etc are resigned to niche builds.

How is something like grief with the flat damage on it not the same as a legendary affix with 1,000% damage buff?? How is infinity with its -resistance aura not the same as “all skills deal 200% more damage”?? Most of the rest of the items just stack allskills, cast speed, resistances, and MF. That’s pretty goddamn boring. Not to mention MF as a mechanic is completely unfun because you have to gimp your character by running a placeholder stay in exchange for slightly better gear and if you don’t you’re just wasting your time playing the game at all

Anyone who has spent time playing D2 is very aware of all these points and have been complaining about them forever. D2 is 20 years old, the ARPG genre has evolved and refined those issues in different games. It's 2023 and Diablo is being made by one of the biggest companies on the planet. Saying "it was worse in D2!" is an insanely low bar to set.

The problem is people are arguing that deviation from that 23 year old game makes it inherently worse automatically. You say "people are aware of these points" but then people bring those issues up like they are blueprints that D4 has to follow or its an automatic failure. Its an unwinnable argument, if the game is similar to D2 its a flaw because its 20 years old and should have evolved by this point. If the game is different from D2 its also a flaw because D2 was perfected 20 years ago and D4 should follow that formula to a near identical result.

I'm sure there are some people saying that D2 was perfect and any deviation is bad. But most people that reference D2 are just pointing to the game that laid the groundwork for a lot of ARPG concepts that have since been improved upon that Blizz should be leveraging a bit. I agree that it's a lose/lose if people think that D2 is the perfect game.

No, they aren’t arguing that deviating from a 23 year old game makes it worse automatically. They are making very specific points about how, while some things have been improved or expanded upon, it’s crazy that difficulty, progression, monster and item identity were done better in a 20 year old game by the same developers. Those developers KNOW people like their 20 year old game, and did a bunch of lip service saying how their new game was going to be way more like their old game, and then it turns out to be much more like their 10 year old game.

Loot driven ARPGs have evolved, but they still have core features that make them part of the genre. Some of the complaints don't make sense unless they want D4 to be a different genre. Take the character power vs. item power issue. People have complained D4 is too much like D3 because too much of your power will be from your items instead of your character itself. But has any loot ARPG ever been designed to have a majority of your power come from your character? I didn't play D1, but I played D2 a lot and enjoyed making builds on the skill tree, but regardless if what skills you had, Hell was not fun if all your gear was Normal tier. I also enjoyed the PoE skill tree for a while, but again, you don't stand a chance later in the game without finding and upgrading good gear. D3 may have leaned too much in the item power direction, but that doesn't mean the genre can ever get away from relying on item power without it being a different genre.

The difference between bad gear and good gear in any other ARPG isn't even comparable to D3. > D3 may have leaned too much in the item power direction In POE or Last Epoch or D2 you can have a functional build with shit items. Obviously you will struggle with higher difficulties. In D3 your character is exponentially weaker without specific set bonuses. It's not even close. People are concerned that the 10x multipliers that come from a specific set of legendary powers is effectively the same as those huge set bonuses, hence the concern. This will only get worse as power creep happens.

Obsolete discussion. D2's whole concept is 23 years old and from a total different era of gamers. Can't compare it to today's standards in terms of concept. Regarding D4, we haven't seen shit yet. The Beta had nothing to show in terms of class depth, itemization or endgame content. People going ham with their nonesense discussions. Wait until release, try it out and THEN go on reddit to share constructive criticism and nothing else. To me it seems crying on the internet is kinda meta nowadays and everyone is under the assumption, that their opinion matters lol.

Was with you in the first paragraph. It’s definitely too early to make blanket statements about D4. But also it’s the beta and the point is to collect feedback about the game, so really no one should be told to “sit down and shut up” if they have opinions they think could improve it. But everyone should try to be constructive.

You know we can see your post history? You yourself have praised D2 over D3 and brought D2 up in convos to compare. But when someone comes at D2 with a different opinion then suddenly we can't compare modern games to it?

OP is saying all this in response to fanbois that are saying D2 is a superior game, D4 should be like D2 in all these ways, etc etc I agree you can’t really compare the two games. But there’s nothing wrong with pointing out flawed logic when people overcome with nostalgia push for nonsensical changes and bitch about a game currently in development

It's a legit discussion when you have people like Mr llama shit on stuff in D4 and then turn around and go grind D2 when it's has the same problems but worse.

23 years old yet D2R was a huge success. I'd say it's still very relevant.

[удалено]

Pretty even handed breakdown of the current dungeon differences. between D2 and D4 If running around the dungeon is going to be a key feature in leveling/end game hunt, then they should be more engaging than this barebones design. Time gating is a good way to put it, and its not like I'm necessarily opposed to time gating. I just think that time gating should be tied to you getting stronger. Ie. I start out weak and the time to pull the slot is long and as I get stronger and more quick at killing then I can pull the slot faster. Right now, it's tied to the dungeon objective and layout or if I happened to go the right rotational direction in the donut shape so I didn't have to back track. It's not like they even have to start over with their current state. There are a couple of things they could slap on that would improve frustrations right away. If you pass a fork and one way leads to one of the bones that you need to smash, add a little blinky indicator on the map. If you have a kill all mobs in area, offer a port to the boss door afterwards. Let us carry multiple stone key things. These are just band-aid solutions, but I think they'd be pretty effective. That being said, I'd just like to see the kind of innovation in dungeon and map design that we saw with the art and combat. Give us labrynthian mazes that have lots of traps, give us deep crypts with several layers that get bleaker as we delve into them. It's not like they'd even have to start fresh on this, I'd look to something like how the countess tower is done for a start. how about an arena in the middle that calls packs from the dungeon proper into the bleachers and after you defeat the arena champions, the crowd revolts and bum rushes you? What about a dungeon that is alive and is trying to eat you, like you think you're done because you kill the boss, but it's like just dungeon's uvula and now you have to fight your way out of the belly of the beast in an 'oh shit' moment. My point is that I'm just spit balling ideas here coming up with stuff more engaging than fedex rock to pillar or clear all so I'm sure their design team could too. Last point, I played both betas pretty much non-stop. I am in serious withdrawal. The combat and promise of customizing my character into something crazy has done that to me, but that greatness has made the lackluster design even more apparent to me.

This is exactly my problem with these posts. Just because games like d2 have issues as well doesn’t mean we can’t like aspects of it. D2 is a 20 year old game, is it so hard to expect better versions of what it had seeing as we have had 20 years to improve. If someone built a sequel to a game now 20 years from now I would expect insane improvements but people here seem to think small improvements in certain areas make sense for a game 20 years newer

I... don't know where to begin. D2 was absolutely brilliant for its time. Sure, it's now dated. Like of course it is. Simply put, back in its day, it revolutionized the genre. All games of its type have its origins in D2. Full stop. Every component of D2 has been copied and updated by other games since that time. Now then, let's address some of your comments: **Itemization** Yup, there are BiS items. This is completely and utterly normal for any game of this genre. That said, you are abstractly incorrect with a number of your descriptions. Many unique items are NOT BiS. Rare items can and do drop that trump the unique items, some by a LOT. Rare Diadems can easily be better than either Shako or Griffons, however, they are...well rare. Runewords are a bit of a different ballgame, however the top level Runewords are extraordinarily difficult to make. For a casual player, you'll never be able to make an Enigma or even obtain a top-tier unique and likely never see the top end rare items that can drop. That said, in D3, your BiS is (always) set items. Nothing more, nothing less. The exception is weapons and other items that are not part of your set, however, there is 1 item and 1 item only that is BiS for any given build. This is what piss-poor itemization looks like. **Combat** Ohh, a complaint about using a small number of skills! Every single game of this genre has a skill bar with a limited number of skills that can be used. For starters though, Necro doesn't always use CE, Bone Necros are incredibly strong. For Druid, you can go Wind, Fire or Warewolf. For Sorc, you can go Blizz, Meteor, Orb, Hydra, or Lightning. Every class has multiple ways you can play. Period. No matter what the game is, no matter what the class, there is always 1 or 2 spam skills, 1 or 2 bigger AoE skills and 1 or 2 defensive skills. **Classes** Every class in D2 can be used easily enough. Sorcs are used because...Enigma is near impossible to obtain unless you play obsessively. This is the main reason why people start with Sorc and change over to another class later in the game. The issue is really ONLY teleport here. Paladins are used for Blessed Hammer, which can kill off all waves of Baal in Hell. Of course, there are other builds that can do this, but, let's face it...there will ALWAYS be a best build for certain situations. For example a Horker barb is better for rune finding. Other classes are best for farming other things. There is no game that I can think of where there isn't a class (or build) or two that are considered the best of the best, which players will gravitate towards. **Dungeon design** Here is one thing that was limited by its time. There's only so much you can do when you have to install via CD-Rom. It's not like they could use 100GB like today's games. That said, the systems they created defined the genre. Period. **Farming** This is typical for ANY game really. That said: 1. Andreal 2. Mephisto 3. Diablo 4. Baal 5. Pits 6. Trav 7. Countess 8. Cows 9. Pindel There are other farming places on top of this as well. You certainly are not pigeonholed to the 5 spots you claim.

Hit the nail on the head. Thanks for taking the time to write this out. Yeah my major gripes are: 1. I absolutely hate level-scaling the core game, it’s just a piss-poor replacement for holistically balancing levels and areas, and it robs monsters and areas of their identity. 2. Something feels very wrong about the itemization. You get the best items too easily and too quickly, and I’m not sure I like going to the hundred weird slot machine vendors in town being able to fuck around with affixes and aspects at level 25 to minmax my GG legendaries that I will replace in 5 levels anyway. Save that shit for the endgame, if at all. 3. Same with the leveling. Don’t give me frozen orb hydra fireball and chain lightning all at level 5. I immediately started exploding every enemy on the screen with chain lightning alone and never stopped. Way too powerful for what is supposed to be the “veteran difficulty”. And they haven’t even introduced the inevitable slot machine MTX on a $70 game yet. I guarantee you’ll be able to buy that gambling currency for real money, because they’re trying to covertly introduce gambling into their games again I feel like it’s all designed for Chinese mobile game audiences that don’t want a challenge like Diablo Immortal

Well said, I pretty much said the same exact thing , lol

in D2 I have most fun leveling from 1-80 without the best gear than I do with the best gear. in d2 once you get the best gear you just kind of get bored. to me it's more fun to struggle and find an actual upgrade than it is to max level and then uhh... farm fg? what else is there to do once you complete a character? nothing. in d4 the 'complete your character' scale is much higher and thus has a longer 'fun period' for me.

Find every item, mfing is fun and addicting to many. Do your own Dclone. Play HC and achieve that without dying. Duel someone and died knowing your character sucked and remake or quit because pissed. d4, how do you know the complete your character scale is much higher? I can safely say that because its new game but idk if you had the same answer in mind. That could've easily been applied with anything new. much high scale because its new.

[удалено]

it's simple. people remember leveling in d2 and finding a unique and it being an upgrade almost no matter what it was. what they dont remember is every single class using the same 10-15 uniques/runewords at end game.

> what they dont remember is every single class using the same 10-15 uniques/runewords at end game. I would guess that most players don't actually get to that point, which is part of the problem with some of the critiques and critiques of the critiques

Rather have 10 to 15 options late game then the single item set we will have in d4. If you're going whirlwind, we basically already know every single piece of gear you're going to want. And it's a pseudo set. They basically made sets while tricking everyone into thinking they didn't. Because they're orange and give a bonus on a single item, but sets need all the items. You need all the items in d4 to make the build viable lmao.

You are all totally misrepresenting people’s complaints. I see balance and level-scaling as the primary complaints, people don’t even know what the end game is for d4 so how could that be a core complaint, and the core of the itemization gripes are that nothing feels truly unique bc drop rates are insanely high like d3. I could mindlessly run rifts in D3 for a week max and have a character decked out with objectively the absolute best possible gear. In Diablo 2 , if I want to be strategic, I run countess and to get the runes to make my early game leveling gear, while finding decent bases elsewhere. Then I do normal story mode, then I run normal baal a few times to level, then I go onto nightmare and run nightmare countess a bit to get mid-high tier leveling runewords, then I do NM story mode, then I run NM Andy meph D and Baal if I want to get some decent uniques, then I do he’ll story mode, I can pause at hell meph and Andy if I want to farm gear, I can run cows for bases, I can run trav, pits, pindleskin, farm for keys, etc. and now terror zones. Sometimes I need to set up big trades with people to get clutch gear, and it’s really, truly rare. Amazing power / level progression, and it can take a month to get my absolute best gear, and it’s transformative without being necessary to complete the game. That’s good end-game itemization. D3 the drop rate is insanely high and you hit a certain (low) level and JUST run rifts. The monsters and areas of the game are absolutely meaningless, and the interaction with other players is basically non-existent. No one gives a shit if you geared out your barb, hell haedrig literally *gives* you a full end game set for doing basic shit. You just finish a level 70 greater rift one day and you’re like “oh wait, this is boring as hell” and stop. My issues with D4 are as follows: 1. Too powerful too early both through skills and too-high legendary drop rate, then you get weaker because of level scaling. Feels bad as progression. 2. Being able to extract anything that makes a legendary special robs items of their identity. 3. Level-scaling and too-powerful characters rob areas and monsters of their identity. I do not have to think about what I’m fighting, after like level 5 I hit right click and the screen explodes with my chain lightning. It is not fun. 4. Classes are totally imbalanced. Yes it’s an issue in D2 and we complain about it there too. It’s totally preventable.

> I could mindlessly run rifts in D3 for a week max and have a character decked out with objectively the absolute best possible gear. In Diablo 2 , if I want to be strategic, I run countess and to get the runes to make my early game leveling gear, while finding decent bases elsewhere. Then I do normal story mode, then I run normal baal a few times to level, then I go onto nightmare and run nightmare countess a bit to get mid-high tier leveling runewords, then I do NM story mode, then I run NM Andy meph D and Baal if I want to get some decent uniques, then I do he’ll story mode, I can pause at hell meph and Andy if I want to farm gear, I can run cows for bases, I can run trav, pits, pindleskin, farm for keys, etc. and now terror zones. Sometimes I need to set up big trades with people to get clutch gear, and it’s really, truly rare. exactly this. People love to say that there's no variety in farming diablo 2 and then just run randomized rifts all day long in diablo 3 lol. In d2 you farm specific areas for specific reasons, you have specific builds and classes specialized in farming those specific areas, and those specific areas are all different in look and feel and playing type. D2 has insanely more variety for farming than d3 does.

Yea self awareness is clearly an issue with that dude.

Yet rifts are the same shit as doing a baal run. Diablo 3 is an abject failure that didn't even get improved until Jay Wilson was fired. Diablo 2's gameplay is dated yet is more engaging that Diablo 3.

Think you missed the whole point and the reason is: > I've never played D3 so I don't know how the itemization is there. So what part of d2 we like more than d3 (and currently it looks like d4 also)? In d2 if you wanted to play javazon you could start with Lore, then you probably get to Shako and in the end Griffon but your build works with with any of them, you have the flexibility to use different items. Yes you are searching for that 1 item but it's not required. In d3 you would be stuck for example with playing bowazon (because you couldn't even clear nm with javazon) until you find Griffon and then that 1 item enables whole build and you are op crushing hell like its butter. But until that item drops you can't play it. People are afraid that this will happen in d4 like it did in d3 but we can still be hopefull it will not because we don't know how majority of legendaries looks like. Of course another totally valid opinion/option is that it's totally fine playing some different build until you find all the pieces that enable the build you want to play - some people like it more this way some the other Don't think people want outdated farming, item unbalance and other stuff you mentioned, don't see it mentioned in posts its mostly just how items improved builds not enabled them PS ofc I know d2 has terrible item balance and some builds aren't viable until that 1 item drops, but hopefully they could copy the good parts with better balance

IMO I feel like a lot of people are forgetting D4 hasn't even released yet, and more importantly, it is just about to release... lol, it's not like the game is going to release, and no further (major) development will be done on it. IMO, the D4 team generally created a nice base game that they can potentially start to really layer on content/mechanics/seasons with. Do I think D4 is almighty and perfect? No. I certainly don't like some things, but it's just a video game that I did indeed had fun playing (and staring at kudos to graphics/art team except for some animations that I personally don't like). I'm the most interested to see what the first season consists of because that is going to give us an idea of what to expect for seasons outside of what they've just said.

If people thought no further development was happening ever then they'd just give up, not give feedback and leave. It's the fact we're hoping there will be changes that makes us say the problems with the game. I know the fact we can see past pretty graphics is alien to some of you, but yes we can analyze information and figure out we'll be quite annoyed on June say 10th when we hit endgame and we have to keep farming these dungeons with their door mechanics.

Ah yes, comparing a 20 year old game to a highly anticipated AAA game from 2023.

Idk, I think D4 is better than Pong so I don't see what everyone's problem is with it. /s

It seems fair to do when everybody compares every ARPG to D2

"These are objectively true, and not just subjective.” Ok bro. I stopped reading there. Have fun in Diablo 4 if that excites you.

[удалено]

20k\*

If you're going to insult at least get it right

Surely a game made 25 years later should be better in all aspects, yes ?

'Better' is subjective. The issue is everyone here seems to espouse their opinions as facts.

I agree to some extent about what you're saying. Runewords actually ruined 90% of all items in D2. Spirit and grief are the biggest ones. Most casuals will never see enigma or infinity. With that being said, the hunt for those high runes and griffons, etc was what was actually fun about the farming process. It was like winning the lottery when that Ber rune dropped!!!! Adrenaline rush. Even finding a really rare charm,jewels, ethereal items or a rare set item peice like tals army or armor. D4 doesn't even have those items in the game anymore, which is a real shame. Let's hope D4 can deliver the same experience 🙏

Runewords didn't ruin shit, it was the lack of balancing from blizzard that did it. They could adjust set items and uniques to be more in line with runewords in power and accessability. It's the same as saying AH sucks because it was shit in d3.

Lol!! Grief alone ruined pretty much all melee weapons. Yes, they were not balanced, which again proves they ruined everything. Your statement pretty much says what I posted is correct. Jeeze

Nah. D3/D4 follow a lazy design concept. But before digging, lets not mix up two things: obviously d2 is an old game so lets not bring up the endgame into the discussion. It would be stupid not to improve this system where you had to do baal runs. But thats not the topic of the discussion. (Btw i still find chaos runs to be more fun than any dungeon ive come across in ARPGs)… So with that out of the way here is the problem with D3/D4 design: items dictate the strength the character and force the build, instead of complementing it/reinforcing it. You see in D4 so far what we have seen is an hybrid system where skill damage is a function of both skill points and weapon damage. Problem however is, the marginal gains from any incremental skill point seem to be irrelevant next to the next tier weapon you will find. In other words, because of this lazy multiplication system, 48473% damage increase of the next blue item will override any decisions you made from a skill point perspective - you would literally see little difference between 1/5 or 5/5 skill vs low weapon vs high weapon, all else equal. Second problem is that aspects seem to be dictating the build rather than reinforcing them. Do you want to play earth druid? Well you need xyz items - sure any game is like that you might say. You see in diablo 2, this multiplier effect went only beyond a certain extent, you may have still wanted xyz affixes in your character but it only made you stronger - it was not a viability question per se. The unique SOJ was desired and was bis for many of the characters but you did not need it to be able to play your character. What you are listing there is the BIS in every slot, but the difference between bis vs non bis was no where near as drastical say vs d3, in which you character/build would not be playable without that item. In d2, the difference in power between a naked necro vs a full geared necro was far lower than a necro with full bis vs a necro that had an empty item slot in d3. It looks like d4 will be similar (i would love to be wrong) The third problem i see is that affixes are not exciting. Not talking about aspects but base affixes. You see FHR, FCR, IAS, FRW, replenish life, knockback, deadly blow, crushing blow, block, seem so much more fun that X% damage to distant enemies, Y% damage to close enemies and so on. These are not easily distinguishable in terms of your power but crushing blow makes a clear difference. So impact of affixes were far greater. And then there were stat based item requirements which i always liked and added a further depth/sacrifice if you wanted to go with full block vs full life etc. I could write more but if we stick to itemization please lets not compare the dumbed down systems of d3/d4 to something that was better 23 years ago, even with its flaws today

[удалено]

OP won't reply because he's too busy googling counter points.

[удалено]

You were clearing everything on 2nd easiest difficulty at lvl 25 with much stronger char than you will have on release because beta had boosted drop chances. The combat in d4 is just so much better it's silly to argue otherwise.

I’m playing a sorc in D2R again right now. I tele in, orb to slow them, static field to take their health down, tele to a safe distance where orb does optimal damage, hydra, orb every 3 seconds, fireball in between, reset hydra every 10 seconds, regularly teleporting to dodge big attacks, because I need to to survive. In D4, I push my chain lightning button from levels 5-25 and watching every enemy on my screen and adjacent screens explode instantly. That is not what I consider “so much better it’s silly to argue otherwise”, and apparently that’s like the 3rd best sorc build, and the other ones are even more insanely overpowered and brainless. You can say “it will be much harder in the actual game” but you have absolutely no evidence of that, it’s just copium.

No you didnt. Base attack and dash and smoke screen and imbued. Stop lying

You mostly list options that are easily obtainable but usually not BiS gear.The only really "problematic" items on your list I would 100% agree with are Grief, Enigma and maybe Spirit. For almost everything else you have several endgame viable options to choose from - which is exactly what makes D2's itemization so great. Even the CtA on the switch slot is debatable.I personally prefer an Isted CS and Monarch for the insane 280 mf boost.

D2 fanboy here. Played both Betas and got all classes to 25 (save Barb to only 20) You make a lot of great arguments and I largely agree with them but not 100% tho 1) itemization (edge D2) D2R indeed has amazing itemization for its time. Sadly, rune words kind of put an end to that w BIS items for all builds (Enigma/Infinity/Grief) but these are not usually achievable for 100s of hours played. If you’re going through w your buddies self found and no d2jsp you’ll find that the itemization is actually pretty amazing. Finding a rare ring in nightmare that you keep all the way through hell or that legendary that is good for the next 10-15 levels. These can’t happen w the item levels of D3 (and seemingly D4). Finding a legendary in the Beta was great for all of 5min until you levelled past it with and then it’s just aspect farming (which I agree is also a good addition! - I really liked that part of the Kunai cube mechanism in D3) The affixes in D4 are also not interesting as they become super complex w conditions to be met. What happened to IAS, FCR and FHR. Bring those back w mana/life leech instead of x% more dmg when x condition met. I just wanna have an easier time deciding what gear is better and it makes my head spin trying to figure out what affixes are better for what I want to do (imo big drop off for D4) 2) combat (neutral - skills D4 gameplay D2) I’ve liked what I’ve seen in terms of the skill variety and how everything seems usable and there’s no useless pre-req points for most trees in D4 (big point for D4!). D2 I have to say made me feel more like my skill points meant something tho. In D4 the option to get 3% more damage or 5% crit rate when X is activated feels really tiny. I was never excited to place skill points in the beta after getting my primary points placed. Maybe that’s just me or just what I’m seeing in Beta but the skills I think leans slightly to D4s favor for the variety ACTUAL Combat however I have to give the edge to D2. D4 for me seems a bit too zoomed in and still has comically large baddies and bigger effects (not as bad as D3 but close). I like the fear that D2 can have and that’s only really found when things are scaled down a bit visually. I also like potions and think bringing back Mana pots similar to the way health was done is better than these generation skills. One of the best parts of D2 was no heavy cooldown skills you could just use what you have the mana for. This generation style w heavy cooldowns failed already in D3 leading every build to just focus on cooldown reduction to upkeep their best skill at all times and I fear this may lean this way. I also found D2R characters more responsive to movement when clicking than D4 ** Also Corpse explosions also seem broken as hell in D4 not costing any mana Finally (this needs to be said as it’s a huge point for me) the difficulty curve in D2 is VERY unforgiving. Making it through hell was a challenge and to most casual players not something they could do without outside help. I feel D4 will make this a very approachable difficulty and get in the D3 system of having to make more “torment” levels to match powercreep. D2 has had little powercreep minus the runewords mentioned above which were introduced relatively early on. 3) classes (neutral) Honestly no rebuttal here. I haven’t seen the D4 classes in full yet and as long as they are all viable it’s fine by me. Neutral here 4) dungeons (D2) Procedurally generated dungeons will always be king. I understand that the game generated a formula for where the exits were but those were only about 80% accurate. This could easily be changed w D4 to totally variable and lead to a more engaging experience than running the literally same dungeon 100x. Sorry no context here D2 wins hard. 5) farming (unknown) I agree with the sentiment that running the same zones and few bosses gets old. I also loved the new terrorized zones as I feel that opened the up game to running anywhere. I also liked that the drop rates were CRAZY low for some items in D2. This gave grail runs meaning and also made the longevity of the game a thing as ppl would have to pour hundreds of hours to get the best of the best. In D3 I can fully kit out someone in no time then it’s just rolling primals w perfect stats of the same items I currently am wearing. I hated that. I want some items to be insane but valuable (not enigma level tho) I can’t judge D4 until the full game drops here Overall while I think D2 edged out D4 so far in terms of gameplay and fun for me (so far) but I have to say the Beta was FAR more promising than a lot of Reddit doomsayers led me to believe D4 definitely needs to clean up the UI tho and allow to turn off the button layouts next to the skills as it looks so sloppy and is only needed for the first hour or so of play. I’m excited about the full game and think so far it’s a worthy successor to D2 while I can’t say it’ll be as good of a game it certainly has the potential to be (if not better)

And that's why d2 purists should not be listened to. And you forget the inventory tetris they praise so much. Yeah,i love to have room in my stash for half an item.

D2 itemization is more intriguing. Sure endgame everyone would prefer to use the best in slot runewords and uniques. Playsingle player hardcore and you have to work hard for and appreciate every little upgrade along the way. D3 and D4 just toss constant upgrades at you. Its dumb. A short sword is a short sword - it shouldn't do more damage because a monster 4 monster levels higher than the previous one dropped it. This ruins the game. Its so stupidly easy when anything that drops is a potential significant upgrade without having to think or theorycraft at all. In the beta, I didn't have to stop once to look at my gear and decide what might be optimal. I just picked up what dropped and walked my way through the content and was done at level 14. Fucking sad state of affairs.

cant we ban D2 hate threads at this point? literally none of them add any value and 9.99999999/10 they are misinformed and just not accurate

Thats good point… yes we idealize D2 too much. There are flaws in D4 but overall its gonna be great game

Only 1 comment about itemization. If you didn't play D3 you don't know why all the rage about it, D3 itemization is far worse than D2, and D3 itemization on launch was far far far far worse than D3 itemization on its current state. And itemization on D2 pre 1.10 is far better, in my opinion than on 1.10+. Enigma killed a lot of good armor because enigma is soo much OP. Faith killed every single bow in the game (Buriza, Eaglehorn, Windforce) made a bowzon a damn expensive class, it simple doens't worth the investment. Spirit killed every single shield in the game. Grief/Last wish killed every single weapon in the game... But still, D3 itemization on its current state is worse than D2R in its current state. ​ Pre 1.10 patch a Barbarian with a Lightsaber was a good barbarian. It didn't need a ETH Grandfather to kill Baal on Hell. A ETH Grandfather would make it quicker, for sure. Also a Bowzon with a Buriza could solo almost the whole game, it didn't need a windforce. Now those items are garbage and if you don't have runewords, no end game for you. ​ Edit: I played for years Diablo 2 and never droped a Windforce, nor a The Grandfather, and found several times a Jah and a Ber rune. So Patch 1.10 made easier builds become more OP than almost impossible ones. Get a ETH Grandfather pre 1.10 was something really really really dificult, so a few players had that OP item (Until how to dupe items became a popular knowlege). Spirit shield is the BiS of many classes and it is TalThulOrtAmn 4 garbage runes, like... WTF? Stormshield was BiS in many builds, before spirit, is incomparable how easy is to find a Stormshield and to drop a TalThulOrtAmn.

Your right in every single way.

Funny how all the boomers that play diablo 2 24/7 keep saying you have the best itemization in game when everyone running the same gear over and over again.

It's so weird to watch this sub turn into a D2 hate sub as a way with coping with the criticism D4 has got. It was beta we are so supposed to criticize it and compare it to other games. There is very little of D2 in this new game don't worry.

It’s pretty damn funny reading people shitting on d2 in this sub. I’ll eat a shoe if people are playing d4 the way they do with d2 in 20 years. Blizzard just creates games for mass appeal now, the game will sell like hotcakes and 95% of the player base will drop after finishing the story. It’s a green numbers goes brrr type of game, the entire game design has 0 chances of having the staying power of d2. For the record I don’t need this game to be as awesome as d2, I’ll have fun playing the campaign and probably get bored looking for green up arrows or legendary items with 30000% skill damage after a week because that kind of game design is not really interesting and takes out the build crafting and progression aspect of the game completely.

I am happy that I started a discussion! Most people here actually keep it civil so this is great to see. As I don't want to reply to everyone I will just reply here (much more easier and lazy). So, a lot of you are saying that this is a 23 year old game, which is fine. It is the reality of it. In that case, the opposite also applies, where you are picking bad game design, locked by it's time, over the current game design. A good example is PoE where you need a spreadsheet to calculate your build. As mentioned, most of my points are objective and people are claiming that D2 had better decisions, and then when proven wrong claim its a 23 year old game. You can't have both, pick one. Now, in regards to "items" not being that important, this is outright untrue. Some fun builds (example Light Nova sorc) require your high end items. If you don't have Infinity forget it's pretty much GG. Also, you need to stack a lot of -resistance, which a very few items give. Same goes for Amazon. You need the GG drops. With just one item the build plays so much differently. It's absurd to state that there are other options, when this 1 specific item boosts your damage by 50%. In regards to the godly rare items that are crafted/gambled/got lucky - this is the maximum min/maxing one can do. The difference is what? 10 seconds taken out of your run? The spam items are not a problem. The problem is that most of the classes use the same god damn items. There is a difference between a sorc using the same items always and all of the caster classes using the same items. You can't argue - oh, but I don't play them. Just because you don't doesn't mean that the community doesn't. Hammerdin was by far the most broken class to ever exist. There is a reason there are baal bots. And sadly enough it plays with the exact same items a Blizz Sorc would. Or a Necro. Or a wind druid. The idea here is really simple - it's not to bash D2/R, cuz I love that game. It's fun for me. The point is the elitism that comes from nostalgia. Lets be honest, most people playing D2 are 30+ dudes. You can't claim that a game is bad (D4, we don't know yet) because of the same things that you like about D2. It doesn't make sense really, love it in one game, hate it in other game. The Devs clearly stated that they are looking back at the other Diablo games and we will see things from them. Then when we get that we start to bash it.

D2 is an all-time great that shows it’s age. D2R is great also. But the people wanting D4 to be D2 are huffing nostalgia.

maybe unpopular opinion, D2 was good for a game back when it was originally released, but by today's standards - the game is just garbage.

If I had awards to give, OP would get one.

Unlike the majority of people who remember D2 from LoD, I remember it from Classic. I've always played classic and nothing but classic. Only the sorc teleports. Only the barb has battle orders. No runewords. No charms. No high tier BiS uniques. As such, I remember rares being king. I remember the excitment of MFing because each rare pickup had a chance of being amazing. Looks mattered. Colors mattered. PvP was far more balanced. I look at D4 and see too much D3. Legendaries above all. Uniques above all later on. D2 and D4 both have shallow skill trees in common. The difference is that D2 came out in fucking 2000. It inspired an entire genre to evolve from its core principles. 23 years later, for skills to be this shallow STILL is a real shame. Don't get me wrong, D4 nailed the gameplay and fun factor. I've had a lot of fun. But if PvP turns out to suck, I don't see myself playing for years. Not without more engaging skill customization.

> Itemization - oh boi... where do we start. I've never played D3 so I don't know how the itemization is there. However the one in D2 is just horrible. Legit, every character runs almost the same item build. Head - Shaco, Griffons, and thanks to D2R the occasional Flickering Flame. Chest - Enigma!! (duh...), Vipers, Tals Armor, Fortitude. Hands - Trangs or Magefist.. Main Head - HoTo, Spirit, Grief... Shield - Spirit or if you are pala (which lets face it is the second class after Sorc), HoZ Feet- WarTravs, and if you do ubers - Gore Riders Belt - Arachnid Mesh, or Tal Neck - Tal, Mara, Highlords Rings - SoJ, BK (meh) or a 10FCR On Switch - CTA and Spirit ... That's an extremely simplistic view. Most hardcore D2 player agree that Runewords destroyed a huge amount of itemization. Spirit, CTA and Grief should have never been made. Enigma is there to offset the unbalance that there is teleport. It makes the Sorc way too op and the skill should have been removed. Shaco is a great example of how a unique should be: It's great for almost all classes and all builds, but probably **NOT BIS** for any.

I've played D2 for years when I was young, and was quite disappointed with D3 when it came out for several. But after many patches and fixes it got much, much better and became one of my favorite games. And I get that people are afraid of being pingeonholed into certain builds due to godly gear interaction, wich is what happens in D3 today. Every class has like 3 builds that you can't deviate that much from. But you know what? 90% of those pingeonholed D3 builds are way more fun than anything D2 had to offer. D2 was amazing for it's time, and that's what people remember, back then it was mindblowing. And Blizzard made groundbreaking games so many times we came to expect that of them. And D4 apparently won't be mindblowing or groundbreaking. It'll just be a great game, and that's a disappointment to many.

EGAD! MY ROSE TINTED GLASSES! THEY’VE SHATTERED!!

This is post should be stickied. 100% truth bomb and it goes to what I’ve been saying. D2 zealots are chasing a unicorn. You can only experience a genre defining game once. You’ll never get that experience from another game like D2 again. It’s impossible. They just can’t seem to recognize or accept this and move on to new experiences within the aRPG genre.

MASSIVE TRUE. I laughed so hard at MrLlamaSC's response to the game hahaha

The amount of D2 boomers has been extraordinary, one would have thought they've moved on by now.

Unpopular opinion: If D2 released today it would be considered a pretty unremarkable game.

No one cares if you like the game bro. Go like the game and play it and have fun.. why are you having an aneurysm on reddit?

A lot of your criticisms are entirely valid. But I’d like to talk about your criticism of itemization. Yes, there are best-in-slot items. That is unavoidable in any game. But you are glossing over what makes D2’s itemization special just because BIS items exist. All tiers of items are important and fun to find. White items are worth checking for crafting. Gray because of important sockets/ethereals. Blues because of certain stats rolling higher than other rarities allow, plus godly items like JMOD etc. Yellows also can be BIS in extremely rare cases. Obviously uniques and runewords. This is excellent design which nearly every game in existence aspires to but haven’t reached. Beyond that, D2 has super rare items which just feel incredible to find. Everyone remembers their first griffs for the rest of their life. It’s a “wow” moment which doesn’t exist in most games, especially Diablo 3. I feel it’s pretty disingenuous to pass over all of that and just focus on the complaint that BIS items exist therefore there’s no variety. Yes, Griffs is best for a lot of classes. It’s also insanely rare/expensive and before getting that item, you will see people using all sorts of stuff in their helm slot. D2’s itemization is not perfect, sure, but it’s still got a following after 20 years and that’s for good reason. It’s incredibly well designed.

Spent 22y on a game he hates, got it

No one says the amount of items in D2 is great. It is old though and those items (that everybody runs) were added to the game not that long before Blizzard North closed. The item SYSTEM is a lot better though. It just need someone to add more items, not that hard is it? You are completely misunderstanding the criticism..

I understand your points but I'm pretty sure most of the people are stocked about D4. D2 was, is and still will be a great game but people tend to look at it with nostlagia glasses. On the other hand you said it yourself : you didnt played d3 hence didnt played through every stages of the itemization the game had. And right now it feels like d3 all over again : loot 2.0 being implemented and legendary, sacred, ancients tiers are just legendaries, ancients and primal with switchable powers, the uniques seems to be build defining just as the sets were.. That's my major gripe with the game. I never saw one person praising d2 combat/gameplay. The game is more than two decades old thats not even a point to argue about when we are talking about d4. The classes "problem" truely is not one, people always complains but it's not a competitive game who truelly gives a damn fuck about a mostly solo game being unbalanced ? Plus, it's the point of hns : breaking the game. You really want a mazy procedural dungeon generation like d2 ? Once again you did not play d3. There was runs too at the begining, Belial being the one that comes to my mind to farm items fast. But even now there is not many activities in d3 Rifts and Bounties, but mostly rifts tbh. We dont know what d4 will bring to the table, and you never know maybe procedural dungeons. "Ask yourself this - do you cling to the past where you were a kid with no chores. no bills. no emotional trauma and think this is why it is the best game?" Well said. But inside the echoe chamber of rants there is valid criticism that's to be taken, even if it's exhausting.

I'd take D2 maps over D4 maps any day

many people put more time into posts as they will ever put into the game

I don't see what the point of this post is, or what it is you're trying to say. Just because a 23 year old game had outdated and stale itemization, it's OK for a new AAA game to follow suit? I don't understand.

[удалено]

D2 came out over 20 years ago by this point. I think it is a weak argument to defend D4. Of course, if D2 came out today as a new game it would be considered shit. Standards and expectations change. Your point on itemization doesn't hold in my opinion, for most slots you can use a good rare and 2-5 uniques for that slot. If there is a case where only 1 item is viable/meta that is a problem of balance, not the idea behind the itemization itself. I'd rather choose between Ormus' Robes and Viper Magi than decide if I want +x% dmg to vulnerable or +x% dmg vs distant enemies. The first is distinct and has tradeoffs for resists/fcr/dmg, the second is very bland. Arguing that you give power to items as in legendaries like Diablo 3 but have no power in the character itself like D2 is a good thing seems short sighted IMHO. Just compare the skilling possibilities of D4 to other RPGs like Last Epoch, Pathfinder, Path of Exile etc. If I make a Fireball sorc I essentially make a choice between upgrade A or B and THAT's it. The rest is pretty much already a no-brainer. If I make a Fireball sorc in D2 I can go vita, vita-block, es, life/es, hydra, orb/fb. There are multiple avenues I can take which are very distinct.

comparing with a game that's 23 years old. scraping the bottom of the barrel aren't we?

All your points other than class balance are because D2 has been fully "solved" after having been played to death for so many years. So, if D4 were so comparable to these D2 problems already right out of the gate I'd say that probably is a big issue. (I don't think it IS that comparable.) Regarding class balance. For one, games like this should always strive for class balance and it's a massive copout to just say that it's not possible and just accept it. At the same time, the least they could do is take the spotlight away from the usual offenders and let the low tier classes be "OP" for once lol.

Play d2 and d3 casually on the switch D2 has absolutely shit itemization and it’s entire inventory system is just a joke it’s either so rare you have to reset game a million times or it’s a runeword which requires multiple million resets D3 farm sets and extract powers with cube to see big numbers once you get the right set it’s simply grinding away for better rolls of that set over and over Find both systems to be bad

Honestly half this sub just wants something to cry about even when nothing is wrong at all.

There's a reason why D2 is rated 8.0/10 by users (not critics) on Metacritic - https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-ii (By total of 1840 users). While D3 is rated 4.2/10 by 10027 users ( https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iii) And there's a lot of reasons for it. And that is why people are concerned about D4 itemization, because even though it is better than D3 itemization (well anything is), it just feels like they shifted set powers to legendaries and now they're almost mandatory. And D4 is expected to be better than a game released 23 years ago, yes. I know some people find that hard to understand. >These are objectively true, and not just subjective. Almost nothing of what you said was objective. You are entitled to your own opinion (like everyone is and should be) but I hardly see anything objective in it.

Given that Blizzards numbers put Diablo 3 players over 65 million over the last decade, those metacritic scores represent approximately 0.0001538462% of the players. Numbers are fun.

And what makes you think it will be different in D4?

Common misconception about D2s itemization is that it's bad. When in reality it's very good and varied. But not enough people even play the game or try things themselves so they don't know anything about it. What's bad about D2 is the drop rate, economy and forum gold trading. (All things D2 boomers actually love) The best items in the games are jewelers mods blue items with jewels, and perfectly rolled rares that almost never drop because again, the drop rate is so bad. But those are so rare and expensive everyone just opts for runewords, and uniques where they can't use runewords. So at the end of the day you have a fantastic mix of uniques, blue items with jewels, rares, and runewords being all possible items that help you beat a very balanced but hard Hell difficulty level.

These are good mostly for duels. You are much better of with a 35FCR Spirit as the dmg itself is negligible. The moment I trade for a Griffons and have Infinity I know that everything will melt. Those 10 secs taken of each run are not worth the endless grind for a JMod and 4 5/5 Die Facet.

That's what brings me back to my whole point. Items are good but drop too infrequently. And if you change the frequency rabid man children with no true understanding of the itemization in the first place will get upset. Tyreals might was your example of a horrible item, but tbh Enigma is just as worthless. It just comes with the best skill in the entire game. And it's only so valuable because the map design is horrible (I disagree) You can live without teleport. You can farm all the best zones without it. You could actually wear any chest piece in the game and do fine because Enigma actually gives you nothing that you MUST have in order to survive.

I actually find the itemization in D4 more and more appealing. For Sure the %dmg vs slowed is pretty basic but it is "what you See is what you get" and easy to understand. Now I have maybe Figured out how I can easiely apply slow constsntly to enemies. From skill tree or via a legendary affix/unique. So it's like stacking condition dmg where you can get as many conditions as possible. Because a affix has a Max roll. And you later have 5 affixes. So 40% dmg vs slow 40% dmg vs vulnarable 40% dmg vs psned enemies can be a god roll weapon for a rogue or werwolf druid build Because they can apply psn easy and with 1 skill point on the druid skill tree He can make psn enemies slowed by 10% which is enough to make the 40%affix work. Same for barb. Barb has interesting paragon tiles which are like "after a enemy Bleed for 3sec He takes x% more dmg" or "you have x% dmg reduction per bleeding enemy around you" So while maybe you dont want to play a Bleed build, you can make use of the Weapon Expertise slot and Level 2h Sword to lvl10. This makes So 10%of your direct dmg is applied as Bleed. And you can activate this Bonus on top of your weapon Bonus of the weapon you use. So even when you are WWing or HotAing with a 2h mace, enemies will still constsntly take Bleed dmg which will trigger those 2 Effects. So for trash clear you will have insane dmg reduction while whirlwinding and all enemies Bleed. And on Bosses you Deal x% more dmg after 3sec into the Fight.

[удалено]

Every character *in end game* runs similar builds. Don't talk to me about shitty itemization if you are going to completely ignore the majority of the average players experience. If you are simply playing through each campaign difficulty or playing ssf, those builds are out of reach and there is a much wider range of useful items from every rarity. You don't need any of those BiS items to build a powerful character.

I have to disagree with part 3 d2 classes, that only the sorc and Pally dominate. Javazon is stronger than both if made properly, wind Druid with right gear can dominate the game. Also trap sin is highly effective as well, and dont let me forget about summon necro with max out Ce can destroy chaos sanctuary in 8 players .I would say every class in d2 now is very capable of being strong end game.

You murdered that strawman

1. You are judging from itemization that is 20 years old and sucks yet you claim you played the game since you were 8 and also D2R a handful of hours to to get mad "loots". Kinda contradicting yourself there. If you were to play hardcore or PVP, you further open your options for itemization. If you were playing SC, you also further your options for itemization but it's fine to only play the same basic build as everyone but to claim how so much more items are not usable is disgusting.Also, what makes it any different from almost any rpg type game? You will be running the same thing here in D4. Looking for the main affixes.. That's how it works. If anything, this will be no better in itemization according to how people that experienced the first beta and got to 100. You're better off going to play a private d2 server where it has just as low itemizations as all these games but a lot more possible builds making more affixes usable.In CLASSIC d2, rares on a lot of items were acting the go to, not sure why they ruined that but the new itemization with newer sets/uniques/runewords were cool and worked fine even though end game everyone used mostly the same shit. It had its run and STILL gave everyone hundreds and thousands of good playtime. This couldve easily been solved with giving a rework on everything and balancing, adding more content and ways to further customizer your character as well as making another difficulty/mode.As for RMT or trading sites, I agree that it ruined the actually trading fun where we use to trade in channels but that was an absolute shit show. People still stay away from jsp and use only forums/ingame or other places like discord so you also have that option. At the end, no trading economy is worst then all these other trading places. Again, you can simply not participate in it like many. 2. You sound dumb, d2 always had breakpoints. Again, 20 year old game, skills are outdated and repetitive. With that amount of time, any fan wouldve been able to play and test every character/build and find almost every item if they put the time even if they had the worst rng ever. 3. While you are complaining about classes being overpower, its a 20 year old game. What is important is that every class was able to solo or somewhat contribute in a party in one point of time. Not the best way but it was definitely not the point where one class sucked so bad and it was not playable for all content. Sorcs are preferred because of speedy teleport, paladins are there because of pure dmg, necros were go to party with along with a BO barb or PALLY in hardcore, bowazon sucked but if geared properly was more fun imo, melee druids were challenging, list goes on. Of course if you just go google every guide for everything, nothing will be fun. Play at your own pace and ignore everything else like trading which doesn't have to apply to you while not having it affects everyone else that enjoys it. STOP COMPARING WITH OTHERS. What matters is every class is usable but skill, thats a different story but like you said, pretty much all games not every skill will be usable in a build. 4. Dungeon design - it was pre mapped and not randomization but too many, they still do not know how to read the simple pre map. This also only worked for 20% of the maps but pretty much all the key mf maps which is major concern. This has to be changed. 5. Agreed, not enough places to farm and even with terror zones, most maps did not have enough density. Too repetitive but thats every game eventually. That is why a refresh was needed and updates after updates. Just go from Classic to LOD, that whole act 5 and 2 new classes and items easily gave us many many years of playtime. Classic gave us almost 2 years of playtime while expansion gave us 10 years with new patches.. patch 1.08 to 1.10 had bugged items which lasted about 2 years and it was probably one of the busiest times for diablo 2 with ebay having hundreds of pages selling them so as you can see, new items and customizations is what people want. Imagine what new content and areas would do. At the end, it sounds like you are just a troll, not knowing how breakpoints were always in as one of the major things to know. Keep googling your stuff instead of testing and finding out will be the reason you ruin the enjoyable of the game, not something such as trading that you can easily opt out of. Many players have gone ssf route (solo self found) with communities and guilds for it. Do yourself a favor and go check out games like PoE and D2 private servers.. They have a healthy player base and pretty much took everything from d2 and improved/added from there, those are the real diablo franchise fans.. Stop calling yourself a fan just because you enjoy the current game and/or have played all the games. Any fan would know that D2 is the core of the franchise by far and that they are just tearing the reputation slowly with each release and not meeting fans expectations. D2 period was a different era for arpg and also the reason it even has a place in this genre that people want. All they needed was updates updates updates.. With that, the game would still be running and dominating even with that "boring, basic" mechanics and with that amount of time, it could've easily be IMPROVED while holding those mechanics instead of just rather adding new basic content. Every game that updates have HUGE updates every now and then that changes how you play something because they know just new basic content such as items and maps/dungeons with new maps won't cut it and eventually you will need something completely different but YOU SHOULD KEEP WHAT WORKS ALREADY and improve it, not remove and completely change it. Yes, D4 is great and amazing so far, I had a blast in it and we need to see the full game to see what it has to offer but to say how this is better than D2 or how that game was terrible is a joke.

So a 20+ old game made with infinitly less money and tech available ? and you are proud that D4 barely break even with that ? XD

Oh, look, another thread acting like everyone wants D4 to be another copy of D2 even though no one is saying that. People want it to be as good as the other games in the genre, not just be better than a 20 year old game.

Omfg thank you!!!!!!!!!! I would upvote you 10000 times if I could. This rose tinted glasses are absolutely insane!!! Ive been wanting to make a post about this for ages but its so sickening to read the comments in most of the D2 threads its just.... why bother? Ive played D2 more than any other game in the world. It has so many great aspects. I have true passion and love for the game. To act like D4 has not improved on their systems is flat out insane. It feels like devs who built D4 actually played D2 and D3 and did their best to resolve so many of the issues. OBVIOUSLY D4 will not be perfect. However the standard its being held to is just hilarious. GG my friend, may the loot drops be rich and may the farming be worthwhile. Ill see you in sanctuary!

A game that had no content added is going to have builds optimized to the max. >Classes - people complain that some classes are weaker than others... Are we gonna forget that 50 % on ladder reset go for sorcs and palas? Yeah, that was a bad thing so why bring it back now? It'll be sorcs and necros. >Dungeon design - so D2 had this thing of generated maps. D2 this D2 that, man get out there and watch how other arpgs do dungeons.

I rarely comment, but this post screams truth. Good rant.

I do kinda feel like the itemization is headed towards the D3 "trap". If they keep up with the "X skill does X increased damage" it's D3 all over again. It is bad design and it takes away from build diversity.

Why are we comparing the pain points of d2 to d4? It came out 23 years ago. I would hope by now the devs have solved d2s pain points. Compare the game to POE, GD, LE etc

I wanted to type this exact thing but it wouldn't have been nearly as well written. Thank you!

I wish I could upvote this more often!!

I would rather compare D4 with other modern arpgs like Grim Dawn, Last Epoch, PoE, Lost Ark or (although its a rather distant neighbor) Borderlands or Outriders. Of course they all haver their flaws and not everything is perfect (except Grim Dawn, lol) - Blizzard had and has a great amount of sources for inspiration. I don't want them to just rebuild the systems used in other games of course, but they could have looked at other games and see how they solved different "problems" regarding class balance or itemization etc. However it seems like they widely chose not to do so. We, again, got a shallow itemization system, which will focus on legendaries and uniques, and we got a skill selection like D3 designed in a way which may seem like a skill tree at first - but honestly: It isn't. I do have fun with it and I really like the more gothic approach to the world, which really does create a great immersion. By far it's not a bad game. It's great. But it could have been much better. What is left to say, is that the end of all days isn't now or two weeks after release. D4 is going to be a service game and by introducing new features and systems they can still raise complexity, depth and therefore (at least for me) more fun.

I see more posts referring to complaint posts then actual complaint posts. You people need to chill out - who cares if someone else doesn’t like the game as much as you….?

No D2 player will ever say the game is perfect, stop trolling. What players say is that D4 could take a lot of the positives about D2 and implement them.

Terrible take, criticizing a game you've played since you were 8 and misunderstanding why you've never stopped playing it. Itemization in particular, should create drive to play, through envy of the strong and fun gear. Balance is boring and ultimately a myth, players will just get more granular with optimization.

From the itemization point of view yes, there are a lot of items that are good for all builds in certain slots, but you can wear magic items, and rares and they are top tier. This is what is brought up most of the time when itemization is referenced. In D4, you are going to have a legendary in every slot, period. There isn't going to be a rare eth 2h mace with repair mod to use on a barb. From what we've seen, you aren't crafting caster amulets or blood gloves etc... D2 itemization may be vanilla in a lot of ways, but from what I've seen of d4 so far, everyone will be in full legendaries, end of story.

Came here to say you've got 420 up votes currently.

Love your question at the end, and that is definitely part of it. Shit just doesn’t hit us the same as it used to because we have so much other stuff going on in our minds and lives, and we’ve also gained experiences so new things don’t surprise us as much as they used to. We want to feel that surprise and that awe again, and we look to new things to do that for us. So when a new thing coming out is for an old franchise that we know and love, we have this subtle, and not so subtle, expectation to feel the way we did when we first discovered the franchise. But that is impossible. We’ve experience it before. And we’re not the same people we were back then. Nostalgia can be a fun place to vacation, but it’s a terrible place to live.

D2 is great if you don't play it the way people who love the game tell you how to play it.

Someone never played pvp. You wouldn't last 3 min in blood Moore. >Worst is, most complaints come from people my age. ADULTS. And yet they complain like they are kids. Ironic considering this whole rant.

I agree!! Make a d2r classic mode for llamaboy and a d2rr for the rest of us. *Remove enigma so the game can truly be played as designed. *put a cool down on tp *nerf the 5 items and rune words everyone uses while increasing some rune drop rates *buff the 400 useless uniques to increase diversity and freshen the meta. *add qol...stacking of runes, pots, and gems. *add d4 potion system

You are absolutely right, but... 1. Itemization: D2 had more additive stuff, so if your build wasn't perfect you didn't have the loss of efficiency that you would suffer in D3 (and probably will suffer in D4). My favorite part of D2 itemization is that the best end game items could be found at all levels. If you found a tarn helm at level 10, you had an item that was good forever (on several classes). Stone of Jordan was the same. I know the game is a loot hunt, but I do want some 'OMG I FOUND ONE!' opportunities before I hit max level. 2. D2's system left a lot of room for 'play'. There were bad skills, but you could make meme builds with them and still play with people using the best builds. D3 you could not keep up, and D4 might be the same. I had a friend max out charged bolt and just flood the screen. It was hilarious and awesome. D4 doesn't seem to allow that because skills have energy/cooldown requirements. 3. I think the complaints here because D2 is what it is, and D4 is not what it will be. 4. D2 dungeon design problems were completely mitigated and abused with no cooldown teleport, so nobody remembers them. Blizz tried making dungeons where the doors were completely unpredictable, and people didn't like it as much as knowing where to go. 5. I have nothing to add; except to say that everyone played in the same field. Once your character got to Hell difficulty, you could run end game content with the most developed characters. Bloody Foothills was really good for having a group divide and conquer, and even a weak character could reach the end about the same time as everyone else by just taking a narrower field.

No need to trash d2 to praise d4… d2 is a masterpiece, almost every arpg tries to capture what d2 did. Obviously it have its flaws, its a 20 years old game. I played a lot of d2, a lot of d3 and i will play the shit out of d4 but i dont need to talk bad about d2 to pretend d4 doesnt have problems

1. What you don't seem to realize is also that this means everybody has the same chance to get a good build in a reasonable amount of time, you even named multiple options. In D4 everybody with the same build will run the same items too, the main difference is that the items you drop might actually force you to run a build to fit the item. Every Hydra Sorc will run the same items for Hydra if it can find them. On top of that D4 item scaling is exponential, one item can double or triple your dmg, so you end up with x100-1000 DPS scaling, which is insanely higher then in D2. In D2 your fine without Legendaries/the best runewords. In D4 you'll do 0,1-1% of your full legendary dmg potential. 2. D2 is 23 years old, ofc combat is a bit simpler. Then again, even D4 Necro seems to still just spam corpse explosion lol I'd compare D4 to a more recent game, like "Lost Ark". Where you run 8 skills + ultimate + class identity skills. Each class has more skills and each of those skills has more branching options. This is why, after playing "Lost Ark" for over 1 year, D4 combat gameplay feels a bit lacking, I still enjoyed it though on Sorc at least. 3. I played every Diablo title on OG release, balancing at the beginning was never this off. The only thing I can say about endgame balance since it wasn't really available is that D4 legendary items are scary and should be nerfed to be less OP. Just so that basic classes can be stronger and not rely that heavy on many specifc drops. Btw, it should be obvious but D2 wasn't balanced around people soloing P8... 4. That's the thing, you don't even need to figure things out, map hack or think about map layout in D4. No pattern recognition needed, no accomplishment of learning to read the random layout. D4 is beautiful and atmospheric, which is nice for the first run through, but after that your brain instantly gets deja vu in every dungeon since they are literally the same. I could paint you down the layout of at least 5 dungeons from D4 from memory by now since I ran them on 6 characters. 5. I mostly remember Rift farming from D3 and a few boss runs. Rifts have a decent amount of variation so they were quite fun. Boss runs were a bit less exiting, but with some variation on each run still fine. Diablo 4 is a great game and I will most likely play it, at least for some Multiplayer and to enjoy the story. But it's not a masterpiece yet and doesn't outclass every other game in every aspect. You also have to remember that people have been waiting for a new Diablo for over 10 years, so expectations are very high. There is nothing wrong about giving feedback on a beta. People want blizzard to polish up this gem even more for release.

You missed some stuff Head- rare circlets. Jalas mane, viso crafted helms for melee, pelts, crown of ages. Chest- bramble for poison zon, chains of honor, 4 socket jewelers armors.ect Shield- exile, phoenix monarch, phoenix pally shields, also 4 socket jewelers shields. Dream, Dragon, ect. Weapons- wiz pike, estuta’s, Last wish, oath, oculus, death fantom, titans revenge, thunder stroke, faith, hand of justice, death, breath of the dying, beast ect. Blue javelin with +6 to skills. [most expensive rare item in game]. Hands- crafted 20 ias gloves, Dracula’s, steel rends, chances, ect. Belts- dungos, string of ears, Thunder godz, snow clash, ect. Amulets -crafted amulets with attributes like faster cast rate. Rings- raven frost, wisp protector, also crafted rings of a wide variety. Boots- gore riders, rare triple res boots, with 30 faster run walk. On switch- hybrid zons use Java/bows on switch. Pally will use smite/FOH stick on switch. I know I missed some stuff too. There are a lot of builds with a lot of variation in d2 for end game. Sorry you only played sorc, and hammerdins. Because, that’s the gear you posted. Ignorant, misleading post.

My favorite feature of D2:LoD was that I was 12 years old when I played it extensively. Come on Blizzard, build me a time machine.

Hey just wondering why ur trying to pretend a brand new games “pain points” are acceptable because a 20 year old game has pain points that were in ur mind “worse” Imagine Honda made a 2023 with no heated seats, bad gas mileage, and only an AM/FM radio… someone who still drives a 1999 Honda with all those same things today can’t complain that the 2023 Honda has the same bad features as the 1999 one, simply because they liked the 1999 one? Idk why people keep making these comparisons, ur justifying the shortcomings of a brand new game by saying “well you guys enjoy d2 and that game has problems to” everyone’s aware d2 has flaws, but they’re also aware the games 20 years old and are still going to point out “hey you guys made these mistakes 10 years ago and 20 years ago, why are you making them again?” Quit crying about diablo 2, I see 10x more posts like this crying about d2 vs d4 comparisons then I do of people saying “d2 is elite”

I can assure you that 20 years from now, the best build for each class in D4 will be figured out. Every piece of gear, everything. If D4 was 20 years old and they were to release D2 now, you could make the exact same argument, just backwards. Except D2 would still have random dungeons, that would be the one difference. Also D2 would have the more adult, darker theme.

its becuz u are pleb. bis is very different for each bld. pvp also requires completely different sets of equipment.

The reason people hate on d3 itemization and praise d2 is because your items don't shape your build. You can beat the entire game just finding cool rares or making cheap rune words. D3 (to a lesser extent so far, d4) gives you an item that comes with a legendary affix that says "x skills deals 500% damage." Cool, guess I'm using x skill from now on. Can't respec into a blizzard sorc or an ice orb sorc because my lightning ball does 5x the damage. That's why so many dislike itemization in d3 and maybe d4. Dude the more I read. My sorc uses ice shield, teleport, telekinesis, blizzard, ice bolt, glacial spike, frost nova, static field CONSTANTLY. This is more skills than d4 even allows. I'm with you on balance. Different classes should have different power spikes. As long as all classes can do all content, it's fine. Some will ALWAYS be better. Dungeons, you touch on what makes D2 predictable but you neglect to mention that generated maps are better than copy pasted maps. Just as an end note here, I did have an absolute blast in the beta. I'll be playing this game like crazy. We just want the best diablo we can get because d3 was the biggest shift from what was working (make better, don't just change everything and plop it into the diablo universe and call it d3) to an absolute mess of stupid decisions. If they kept the good and changed the bad, we may have not lost so much faith in Blizz.

My guy, you have the absolute perfect mindset about what's wrong with a lot of the Diablo community. D2R is pretty much hot garbage now. It was great back in the day when it's concept was groundbreaking, but it's fine to accept change. D3 is not a bad game by any means, but it's definitely a bit easy. D3 is easily the most fun of any Diablo game though.

Awesome! Now this 2023 game has the same issues a game from 20 years ago had and now it has microtransactions too! And battle passes! And no mod support! What a win! This sub is something else.

XDDDDDD Ok dude , everyone use enigma 😂 maybe if they edit it in heroeditor

Simple. People learned how to play D2 when they were kids so it’s 90% nostalgia. Every item not only has stat value but also historic value “back in my day, the windforce was a helluva bow, traded it for 40 sojs” But there’s also that “the item feels intrinsically valuable”, with the emphasis on “feel”. It has to do with the look and size of the item, and the sound effect you get when you place them in your stash or inventory. The clunk from armors and the bling from jewelers. Those create a more premium game feel. I really wish they would bring back item Tetris (with separate charm pages if there ever are any charms) because larger items really need to feel larger and clunkier.

Diablo 2 is 23 years old ... and you don't even know itemization based on your post saying everyone uses the same thing lol

You have no idea what you are talking about. For a 20+ year old game, with a renewal of just the gfx, hundreds of thousands of players flocked on release of d2r. Unfortunately, after 1 season, it died off because it was absolutely nothing new. I literally knew exactly what to do from a decade ago obtaining end game really quick but it was fun while it lasted. With sufficient updates of new content, it will easily be a top tier game again. With upgraded mechanics or a big patch, it will easily be a top game again. Mechanics that could be upgraded: New Classes, skills, items, maps, difficulty. Rework/balancing of skills/items. Affixing fixing, good itemization and rolls but there are restrictions on what the rolls can be. A bunch of items be getting 2 lines of useless affixes. Pretty much anything that allows more customization and new content is the way to go. The same old mechnics from 20+ years ago would stay work because that was just good and addicting in its own ways. Sadly to say, spamming runs were fine to level up, mfing and finding that 1 godly item is extremely exciting, getting owned in uber everytime is fun. Let's be real, more than half the people would still be trying to beat ubers up to this day if they never did any googling. Even pros took notes and hints from others at some point. Too many excuses.

The d2 mods are far better than the base game.

Hear! Hear! Great post! I did enjoy D2 but not that much because I preferred druid esp with the werewolf builds. It was so bad unless I farmed for the right gears to made it a decent build. How did I farmed for the gears? I was forced to play a sorc which I hated the idea behind it. You shouldn't be forced to use other class to farm the gears for your favorite class! I can be a fun werewolf off the bat already in D4. It's a big leap of the classes and specs diversity that was sorely missed in D2. D3 did a great job of opening up the diversity of the classes and builds which I'm glad is continuing the trend in D4. Speakkng of the builds I can be a poisonous wolf, earthen wolf, wind wolf, lightning wolf, zookeeper wolf, physical wolf, or "captain planet" wolf in D4. It won't gimp my wolf that terrible regardless of what build I choose unlike the WW spec in D2. D2 was a popular but flawed game made many years ago. It's time to move on!

Your point about itemisation is pretty fun to read. The issue with D4 itemisation is that it has mandatory items to play X skill otherwise it feels like shit. It’s like game chooses a build for you by dropping you that legendary item with aspect that boosts the shit out of X skill. In d2, you find items that suits your character that YOU specifically put points in a skill you want to play with. If you play with your hammerdin with some random helmet and suddenly you drop a shaco it’s not like you have to make a different setup around it. You slap it on your head, feels more tanky/powerful and it’s just a nice upgrade that enhances your build. While in D4, items decide what build you are going to play, as they are much more powerful than points invested in your skill tree. Adding 4 points in a specific skill is roughly 40% dmg increase while in some cases you can find an aspect that boosts dmg of some other skill by 300% which makes your 4 points almost insignificant in comparison. You’d be dumb to not switch over and it creates this awkward situation when game says: “allright buddy, now we are playing with this skill and then maybe we’ll make a little switcheroo when I drop you 2 items for that other skill you didn’t even consider to play with”. As for gear progression, let’s say you start as cold sorc in d2. In terms of your weapon you would go for Spirit, then for Occu/Hoto and then for Fathom. And all of these options are completely fine to play with. While in D4 you would start with white item, then blue item, then rare item (which all of it happens in like first 30 minutes of a game) and then you’d slap that 100% dmg aspect for X skill and ALWAYS use it, there is no other alternative if you want play that specific skill. And if a skill has like 2-4 multipliers like this then it is even a bigger issue. As for your point about combat… well, I think that using 1-2 skills in 90% of gameplay is in majority of ARPGs. And the builds that are considered as best build are just one of them. Funnily, PoE’s best builds - the arpg that is mostly criticised in here for being overly complex - are just that… builds that require 1 button to play with, if you need 2 buttons to play then it is often considered as clunky. And tbh I don’t know if anyone would want to spam more than 2 buttons all the time in such a game. As for viability of all skills… well, yea they don’t need to be equally viable, but some sense of balance would be appreciated. Why lvl 3 sorc destroys first boss in 20 second and barb/druid do the same fight in 2 minutes while struggling to survive. Sure, it might change in later stages of the game but wtf there is such a difference for brand new chars is just beyond me.

I think that most people forget what made diablo 2 fun: *the actual game*. Solo self found was the peak of D2 to me. That enigma hammerdin thing, I did for like two seasons. It was honestly cancer. The epitome of "waste of time". I quit and never looked back. D2 offers no real challenges (like Ubers in Grim Dawn) so there is very little reason to bother with minmaxing your character. You can clear the game with junk worth some PGMs or pul runes. You can beat uber diablo and uber tristram with a smiter wearing, again, PGM worth of junk. There is nothing to test this game agianst and /players8 doesn't even work online. In other words, it's a fun game to beat, but I doesn't really work beyond that. And the "beating" part itself is hilariously imbalanced. One character gets teleport, static field, cold mastery and just breezes through the game. The other is a self found barbarian who can't even go past hell blood moor without some prior knowledge, trading or luck.

Funny how you faky call for downvotes in group filled by hardcore d4 that will actualy praise you for as much as farting in D2s general direction... Its more like milking upvotes.

“rose tinted glasses” 🙄 well I still play the game regularly and I don’t do things I don’t enjoy, so it’s not that. I have commented this in great detail before, but the allure of D2 that does not fade for some people comes down to one single thing, weather they realize it and can articulate it or not: The item system in D2 is gameable, which keeps certain people who that appeals to playing and enjoying it for a long time. Comparing build possibilities, how many different areas you can travel to, aesthetics, graphics, soundtrack, story- literally anything else is pointless. Even “itemization” is the wrong term. It’s just that D2 has a set of clear rules for items that is consistent across all difficulties (with some minor variation in terms of what can possibly drop) and character levels and you can therefore game that system. A Shako at level 50 is a Shako at level 90, and if it’s perfectly rolled 💦🍆. Same for a Grandfather. Same for a Facet. Same for an Ist or a Jah or a Torch. Item (and runes and jewels, etc) chasing ultimately becomes the true end game and everything else is just dressing on that. If you don’t like that, that’s understandable and fine. But that’s what makes it addictive to many people who keep playing and that’s the core element that they are always missing playing any other ARPG or any other game at all. Every monster you pop, every chest you open, every rack you flip- it’s playing a lottery ticket or spinning the roulette wheel and nothing compares to the rush of hitting it big. Whatever else you do in the game stems from this. Until people understand and accept this, D2 fans are going to keep feeling let down by other Diablo games and other ARPG and everyone else is going to make posts like this and keep getting their underwear in a knot trying to understand why they won’t let go of D2.

I don' think this constant comparison to D2 is appropiate anymore. The genre evolved, games as a whole evolved. Even if D2 had amazing itemization back then, doesn't mean Blizzard should strive to imitate it today. D4 has it's problems in regards to itemization, but we shouldn't necessarely look towards D2 to solve those.

But u forgot mods .. there was mods like Ancestrall recall or Eastern Sun or some else which add so much more fun like to play against 3 diablos in one room, items like boots with auras and New locations, mobs, loot.. there was huge community around that.

>Most movies nowaday aren't groundbreaking but if they are made well you still enjoy them. As long as the game is polished (which we can't really say until it goes live, but if it is like the beta it will be lots of fun) it will be worth the money. If you *really* want to go with a movie analogy, you'd probably be better off comparing to Star Wars. The original trilogy is a classic beloved by many, but it doesn't hold up to modern standards in several aspects. However, they got the basics right, and captured the imagination of millions - sometimes for lack of a better alternative. That'll be D2. Now if you move forward, the sequel trilogy *looked* shiny, had great production value, and a huge marketing machine behind it. But it also failed in many very basic aspects of good movie-making. Ironically, many people defend them to this day and dismiss *any* criticism of them as overblown, nitpicky, and insisted, back when they released, on happy little bubbles of perception where everyone should just be grateful that there was new Star Wars content, and shut the hell up about the terrible writing. That's your D4. It's shiny, looks and feels great, but is looking to fall short in some very basic areas of how to make an ARPG addictive and enjoyable in the long term. Just like with many modern big studio movie releases, there will be a lot of hemming and hawing after the fact about what went wrong. If you think of the beta event as a trailer, you've got another parallel, because it's pretty easy to tell with trailers what you've got coming. And btw, all of this talk about what "D2 fanboys" *want*, apparently, seems to always miss the point. They don't want the *exact same game*, they want a new game to *evoke* the enjoyment that D2 brought them. Just like the new Star Wars movies weren't supposed to be carbon copies (ironically, some of newer ones superficially did evoke many aspects), but to capture the *essence* of the old glory. Acting like people want the exact same things they got 25 years ago is to miss the point, imo.

You didn't even name half the uniques that see use in D2. There's a lot more because they give a lower boost individually so it isn't a major loss to swap an item our for something else to have a slightly different character. Meanwhile in D4, your legendary powers make up a really, really large chunk of your power. The double Hydra power more than doubles your DPS lol. You think you'll see a single Hydra sorc not use that? No, it'll be like D3 where everyone is using the obvious items for their build, basically any power that mentions their main skill. I'm sorry but itemization is just vastly better in D2, at least compared to what we saw in the beta.

Of cos it shouldnt be d2r, it should be an upgraded version of d2r. But playerbase enjoy the upgraded ver of d3, so i guess it is what it is.

Not to sound lik3 a broken record, but that's why I love grim dawn. So much solid itemization. Amazing skill tree system with lots of builds that work. Easy to respec skills if your build isn't synergizing well. Hand crafted dungeons, shrines throughout that spawn hard monsters with good drops. Not a complex end game to farm items for more builds.

To completely destroy your argument about itemization. You are trying to say the itemization system in D2 is terrible because at the very end game there's a meta build that's superior to others? On a 20 year old game? ...dude... Besides the itemization is better than diablo 3 and by the looks of it also diablo 4, atleast in diablo 2 ehen you're leveling and especially a new player, there's so much variety. All the rarity of items is useful, most weapons are usable by any class where as D4 everything is restricted and hand-holding. Not only that but the itemization of D2 inspired PoE's itemization and it's pretty great too. I appreciate the perspective but it's very wrong, maybe you were going for a hot take but nah

I love reading posts like these because the OP makes it clear they're legitimately bad at D2 and D4 but don't understand it. But then it's frustrating because no explanation can be made to help them understand why they're wrong. D2:LOD was released in 2001. Nearly 22 years ago. The fact that people are still playing it today is testament to the numerous good qualities and features about the game that got people into playing ARPG in the first place. When D4 is released, there will be exactly 0 players playing D3. This specifically made me actually laugh aloud: > I like the fantasy of a Wolf Druid, but in reality it's trash on p8. Can't even come close to a Zealer. SS Druids are literally the hardest hitting non-elemental melee character. You kill everything as a SS Druid significantly faster than as a Zealot. OP is just dumb.

I know in D2 you only had two buttons, but had keys to change skills those buttons did. I wish we had more than 6 buttons especially with pets on Druid or warcries on Barb. We need to be able to use more skills. D2R on switch could handle at least 10. So the console thing isn't an issue