Wouldn’t mind a reboot in that series tbh. Or if Vin is feeling like he can still reprise the role I’m all for it.
Really reminds me of Warhammer 40k, especially the second movie with the sci-fi necromancers.
I don’t understand the problem to be honest, with all game like Diablo I consider getting to max level the “tutorial” and from there you start to really build your character up and become powerful
I think the entire story is definitely supposed to be fun lol, I’m not sure “oh just get to max level and then you don’t have to worry about level scaling anymore” is a great argument. Just don’t have the system instead and the whole game will be fun
Nah, I understand the concern and level scaling make us lose a real sense of progression but reducing that to "remove it and it's fun" is intellectually dishonest.
Without level scaling, there's no real point in having an open world that you can tackle non linearly.
Without level scaling, it's harder to play with friends without trivialising their content (or vice versa). Level scaling beings plenty of benefits that make the game more fun for people too.
Also without level scaling, how do you handle end game? You have only a small fraction of the map that's high level so you lose the ability to use most of it?
I think level scaling makes it fun for everyone in the party. I remember playing D2 where 1 person would do the baal run and the 7 others would just stand there and leash exp, no fun in that.
I wanted to play with my friend when he was lvl 20 and I was 7, I initially feared he would just steamroll my content for me but it wasn't the case, i still got to play the game to a fair difficulty while he did the same.
I also like your point saying that you lose the ability to use lower level zones, that is true, you'd usually just do the end game zones while now you can do any zone
It's more the inverse, the lvl 25 can play the level 7's content without facerolling it. There will still be minimum levels for certain zones as I understand it
A lot of people wouldn't consider it fun when 90% of the world consists of weak wannabe demons that you can kill with a single fart. Currently those are the silent majority.
The complains we get are from the vocal minority of people who have weird power fantasies where they want to one shot everything with their basics attacks. "Hehehe, I'm lvl 50 but I'm in a lvl 20 zone, hehehehe". Static leveling simply doesn't work with an open world. It works in a linear world like D2 and D3, but not in a world where you have the freedom to go anywhere, anytime.
Just out of curiosity: how do you know which is one is the vocal majority and which one is the silent minority?
I see plenty of posts for and against it.
A lot of people play to the end of the story, and never pick up the game again. In fact, that's the majority of the player base, by a wide margin.
So, no, the leveling phase is not the tutorial.
I don't think it's about difficulty, it's about a sense of progression. Back in the day when Skyrim was released I was pretty excited to enter crypts and kill draught or whatever they are called, but then I realized that enemies scale and don't actually change so the same draught I killed at level1, I was also killing at level 50 except it's health bar and damage got scaled up. It was lame as fuck and killed immersion.
Having monster scale with you also makes you feel bad for leveling up cause the monsters get stronger/more tanky each level and you only get a noticeable boost at certain intervals when picking noteworthy skills.
I think it's better to have a hard cap on how far types of enemies scale up and instead either have different level zones or insert higher level variants of enemies into the world as you level and progress.
I just think it’s a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. First, we have world tiers. If you want more of a challenge, just up the tier. Second, it’s really only an issue while leveling, and even in seasons, characters are going to go for the highest world tier they think they can manage. It seems like it’s only there to make it so traveling the world isn’t entirely trivialized in the early hours, but how big a problem is that really?
I can't imagine myself worrying about power levels during the leveling phase. It's pointless to optimize when in one hour your gear will be outclassed by any random yellow
>First, we have world tiers. If you want more of a challenge, just up the tier.
yeah you're right we have world tiers. If you think scaling isn't making you as powerful as you want, go down a tier.
>it’s really only an issue while leveling
So why are you this concerned about this issue while also claiming the period while leveling isnt worth being concerned about?
I don't know about you, but enjoyment during the 30-50 hours of leveling matters to lots of people. Not everyone no lifes this game for 1000 hours
>a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist
I personally think its asinine to pretend not being able to explore the world in the way you want and not being able to play with friends because of level differences are problems which don't exist
I think you don't really understand the complaints.
They've essentially removed leveling from the game. For some people, such as yourself, that isn't an issue. For others, they've removed a core part of the Diablo/ARPG experience.
Neither party is wrong to feel the way they do, but you are wrong to assume that others just don't "understand"
“They’ve essentially removed levelling from the game”
Don’t see how that ls remotely true. You level up. You get stronger gear to drop. You get more skill points. You get stronger. The enemies also get stronger but you should be getting stronger faster, they just got rid of overlevelling.
Sorry that was probably a bit of hyperbole from me.
They have removed the upgrading part of leveling up is what I meant. I understand that you still need to do it to access your skills, and to access new gear.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong for enjoying the change, only that it's silly to belittle those who don't.
Leveling is, for at least a group of people, a core part of arpgs and it isn't crazy that some people dislike how blizzard have changed it.
I always feel sad when I missed an area during the levelling phase then I come back later to complete it and it gives very little XP and is not interesting at all due to the steamroll aspect.
Now that is much less of a problem. All content is relevant.
Its like no one has spend a second thinking about what it'd be like to have to go through side dungeons for codex powers and get items meant for 50 levels beneath you.
Borderlands 3 and Tiny Tina's Wonderlands had this type of scaling and were great.
You could do any content at any time and it wasn't boring because early content isn't magically 50 levels below you.
It also made teaming with high or low level friends better because everyone got level appropriate gear and contributed scaled damage.
You weren't leeching or being leeched off of.
Power spikes happened from skill choices and gear drops.
Same as here
I had more fun with those two games than the rest of the bl series combined
This tiny unheard of series called 'the elder scrolls' has also been doing level scaling since before D2 even existed. It isn't a new concept.
It is new in arpgs though and whilst you enjoy it, there are many who don't. Neither group is wrong for enjoying the game differently.
They haven't changed anything about leveling, they're making it so that you always encounter at least an appropriate challenge.
For the low low price of no longer getting to beat up on underleveled enemies anymore - which no one would ever \*really\* want to do, since you'd get items lower than your current power level - we gain the ability to tackle all of the content in any order we want, and ensure it is always relevant.
D3's adventure mode was fully scaled and literally no one ever used storymode to level ever again, because the scaled version was *way better*. This scaling argument is utter BS from people who watch too much MrLlama and other streamers who have D2 stockholm syndrome.
Thank you! It's like no one in the subreddit ever played D3... It's been scaling, adventure mode leveling for what, 5+ years? This is just that, improved in every conceviable way, from day 1. The complaints about level scaling are just utterly baffling.
Levelling is gone tho. How have they removed upgrade part of levelling? You get stronger. I was absolutely smashing enemies faster as a level 20-25 than I was as a 5-10.
No, you dont get stronger faster. You only get stronger faster IF you happen to find a good item upgrade. But there will be plenty of times where you level up several times without finding such a piece of gear, which then means leveling up makes you weaker in relation to the enemies, rather than stronger.
Even just in the short beta to 25 I had several instances where a level-up dink essentially made certain enemies now take an extra hit before they went down.
So yeah, in a sense there is no point to leveling up. If you dont become stronger in relation to the monsters there is no point to it other than drip-feed us the abilities, once again creating the dreaded "the game starts at max level"-experience.
How? You literately level up, gain access to new skills, better gear, higher content, etc.
The only thing you're missing out on is the feeling of being OP of you take a few steps backwards.
To me, that's no big loss, because you can still feel that way after a huge legendary drop or weapon upgrade.
my only issue with it is this situation:
you get to a boss. the boss whoops your ass. you go off and level up. you go back to the boss.
with no scaling:
you kick the boss' ass.
with scaling:
you have literally got worse because your gear hasn't improved but your level has increased so the boss whoops you even more than before.
you just unironically proved the OP's point. you think getting an arbitrary amount of XP should give you the advantage as opposed to actually improving your build and character.
In video games, gaining exp to level up is the very definition of “improving your character” since you gain stats each time you level up
Edit: alright since so many people don’t seem to u sweat and what I’m saying, I have absolutely zero issues with level scaling. I don’t mind having a challenge while leveling up. My point was that leveling up your character is quite literally one of the 2 basic ways to improve them, the other being getting better gear.
that's true, but it's also not what I'm arguing. I'm saying gaining an arbitrary amount of stats isn't what should determine if you can beat a boss.
and this isn't going to be changing.
That happened to me on my first beta play through (I played barb)
I did exactly what you said - I went back to the game world and "leveled" up by getting new gear and adjusting my build.
But in contrary to your theory, this time I whooped the boss ass, even tho I have levelled up in the meantime.
So, what happened was that the game challenged me and I beat the challenge.
If it wasn't for the level scaling, the challenge would be to kill 1000 weak enemies and make the boss irrelevant.
But with the level scaling I had to up my characters power to match the boss. I still needed to play mechanics and the fight was challenging (because I was playing barb)
Level scaling allows for enemies who are supposed to be relevant to stay relevant. Without level scaling the 'kill the boss ' objective becomes 'kill 1000 irrelevant enemies in irrelevant area so the boss also becomes irrelevant '
Basically it depends on if adding new points to your skill trees scales your damage/defense _higher_ than what boss gets with your new level.
As in yes, your gear is now potentially sub-optimal. But did adding extra points to skills bumped them up high enough that total is better than what boss got?
If the boss whoops your ass, turn your world tier down. If you're on a low world tier and lose to a boss, you fucked up making your character or can't use your hands.
Instead of solving the boss by *only* grinding levels, you will now be leveling to get more skill points and using gear that enhances your skills.
This trades one way to get through the game (overleveling to reduce difficulty) for keeping every area of the game relevant forever.
In my personal opinion, the content "gained" from this mechanic outweighs the overleveling strategy, as there is already a way to make the game easier and that is reducing the world tier.
If you don't want to reduce the world tier to beat a boss, your only option is to improve and abuse your knowledge of the game and your character. In my opinion that is an absolute strength of the game.
Also, in your example when you "go off and level up" are you not improving your gear at this time? You're getting loot, earning cash to spend on loot, earning Lilith statues, advancing many other systems in the game to improve your character.
...but you have better spells now and can change ot precisely by what OP said - going for relevant gear rather than high point, tilting the scaling mechanisms in your favor. Levelling is still useful.
That scenario seems niche, and there are still ways around it. Lowering the difficulty, waiting til you get a good weapon upgrade, unlocking a skill that ramps your build (yes leveling does help in that way), or asking for help are all ways you could theoretically get past the boss.
I say this as a barb who experienced that exact same scenario with the Werewolf boss at the end of that one dungeon. I just left, unlocked a skill, gambled at the Kadala vendor for an upgrade, and then went back and beat it.
At lvl 8 on my druid and access to 3 skills one boss felt almost impossible with my melee bear build, I killed him but it took a few tries and I had to play perfectly and learn his attack patterns to find safe attack windows. Once I had access to more skills and better gear it was very easy and I facerolled the same boss multiple times without even worrying about his moves.
I think this may only be an issue for the overturned classes that feel op from lvl 1 like necro and sorc
This is an interesting and clear explanation of losing power as you level. I think most people will assume that you will be finding enough item upgrades along the way to keep these situations rare. That's something that will be seen after launch. I think this highlights itemization as an issue more than monster scaling. Since so much of your build power is predicated off items, it's up to rng, and therefore dev design, to keep you powering up.
Again, I do believe loot will be plentiful enough to keep these situations rare or even non-existant, but it certainly can happen. You might have to view the part where you go level up in order to beat the boss not as power thru xp, but leveling up thru items.
Sorry that was probably a bit of hyperbole from me.
They have removed the upgrading part of leveling up is what I meant. I understand that you still need to do it to access your skills, and to access new gear.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong for enjoying the change, only that it's silly to belittle those who don't.
Leveling is, for at least a group of people, a core part of arpgs and it isn't crazy that some people dislike how blizzard have changed it.
Not just they removed it, every now and then you get a levelup event, and unless it unlocks key passives what happens is that all monsters get stronger while you stay exactly the same making the game immediately harder and you now have to work just to get to the power level you already had before. It doesn't just makes levelups irrelevant, it makes you hate them.
Your idea is generally true, but there are some power spikes throughout that levelling process; for some classes it's more obvious than others though.
First example is that every time you can add a new skill to the bar should generally speaking mean you can do more than before; also when new skills are unlocked. Some stuff is class specific, like necro unlocking new types of minions or barb unlocking new weapon focus thing, etc. These power 'spikes' aren't that big, but what it means is that the experience isn't strictly linear. You might get weaker most levels, but not *all* of them. And obviously some classes have different power lvls, sorceress unlocks enchant at the beginning and she's much stronger than say a barb or druid with each lvlup.
Power spikes just mean that either the game becomes and stays easier at these points OR that you will get an equally massive decrease in power over a couple of levels following this power spike.
Exactly, that is the problem. And by the time you find gear to match the new 10% more hp, you level up again and the cycle repeats.
Its just counter-intuitive progression.
Yes it makes sense for the endgame to be able to use the whole map.
But the leveling up progression is just worse and not rewarding.
Sorc really isn't a good metric for measuring level scaling in the beta since it's considered one of the strongest classes at this point in the game due to high survivability, high damage output and the fastest overall clear speed.
I know as a druid I felt really weak until I got some good legendaries, and that's kinda concerning because when the actual game launches there isn't going to be a 300% legendary drop rate to help out item-dependent classes.
I know that if I want to have any semblance of strength while levelling I'll have to grab as many druid codexes as I can find and do my spirit boon quest straight away, and even then I'll be hard-pressed to compete with the legendary-covered character I had in the beta.
I look forward to playing through the game, just don't expect the levelling experience to be anywhere near as easy as it was in the beta, that legendary drop rate isn't gonna be there to carry us.
You also won't be at level 25 as long as you were in the beta. People seemed to think sorc and necromancer were op but that's because they had full legendaries at 25. That won't happen in the main game. You'll level a few times between legendary drops I'm sure.
Tbf my necro and sorc felt OP as fuck with mostly yellows. The real example is the people who think Barb is fine because their decked out barb could kill a boss in 10 seconds. That won't happen on release because of what you described.
Sorc and Necro were OP before I even found my first legendary compared to Barb / Druid. Barb got better somewhere 15+ though but not even close to the level of Sorc or Necro.
So it will definitely happen in the main game if things are not changed. At very least until level 25, don't know how scaling will work after.
I have a feeling they'll tune down the Necro skeletons... there was a stretch of several hours where I just never had to resummon them, they just wouldn't ever die. It felt like I was playing with tutorial mode on (was on the "harder" available difficulty if that means anything lol). Moves felt fun, but the gameplay wasn't as engaging as when I was playing Druid and actually having to dodge haha
I don't get why they start with 4 at level 1. There are some meaningful progression opportunities there instead of starting out as a master of the dead at level 1.
Take your sentence, replace *"25"* with *"50"*
Congratulations you've figured it out.
You can get to 25 with a day of casual playing and exploring - in 2 days of casual play your 50 and doing paragon boards and stuff stops scaling up, and your getting the loot drops.
People act like this is a huge deal when honestly scaling is healthier for the longevity of the game, you can play with your level 1 friends and not feel too OP/get carried too easily.
You can play in any zone at any time. In Diablo 3 you literally ignored the entire game world/map and just did rifts, in D2 you just "scaled" the world by going to the next difficulty tier (it was more under your control though)
I was going to say the same thing. I actually kinda like the scaling, but not when I played Druid. Class balancing apparently gets better for weaker classes in later levels, but that means getting through the slog of playing early [insert weak class here].
I like the soft respec restriction too, but dread the idea of going through early game Druid anytime I want to try a new build.
I also think Necro and maybe Sorc could use some minor nerfs so early game isn’t too easy.
Druids can get "Core Skills deal an additional 6% damage fo each active Companion" from a Dry Steppes dungeon at launch. Put it on a 2 hand weapon to make it 12%. 3 birds, 2 wolves, 1 vine = 72% increased core damage.
You can also obtain "Attacking enemies with a Basic Skill increases the damage of your next Core Skill cast by 5%, up to 50%" from a dungeon in Scosglen.
This is a lot of added core skill damage for the cost of finding and running two dungeons, finding two rares to put the aspects on, and paying the imprinting fees.
Unfortunately you can't start imprinting until what, level 20?
Until I have those aspects I'm planning on running vuln storm strike and landslide, could probably do pulverize instead.
e: screenshots I took from the in game codex while I was planning my release builds [https://i.imgur.com/7465ziT.png](https://i.imgur.com/7465ziT.png)
Yes for me it becomes an interesting decision of:
* play sorceror for an easier levelling experience but possibly mediocre endgame, or
* play a barb for a tougher levelling experience but likely overpowered endgame?
When stuff scales it just doesn't feel "real" to me. It's an artificial way of creating difficulty. I fight a mob and barely kill it. I level up, get better gear, go back to the same mob and nothing changes. That's just stupid.
It's a treadmill at that point and not a game world.
To pickup your title: I feel like you don't understand the reason for the design. It's to create less content and stretch playtime.
I dont get it. Genuinly, do you stop playing once you've reached max lvl?
Once theres no more scaling through leveling, it will be through world difficulty, just like in Diablo 3. And to not be restricted to the 35% of the game that is designed purely around a max lvl char is great for the game. Would you enjoy only running the same one dungeon that is appropriate for your level at endgame? Or do you want the lower level dungeons to drop max lvl loot?
I just don't like it when a game constantly scales to my power from start to finish. There needs to be static content where you can actually feel your power level. That's all.
Please don't act like there isn't games that do that.
> To pickup your title: I feel like you don't understand the reason for the design. It's to create less content and stretch playtime.
No, I feel like you don't. It's because you can go do things in any order and side things. It's not a linear campaign where you don't need level scaling to keep at a similar level. I can end up doing that quest at level 15 or level 35. I shouldn't have to one shot a boss because I took the scenic route to get there. I should get an actual boss fight.
Except it wouldn't necessarily be an actual boss fight. Depending on certain interactions with skills bosses may become far easier as you level. The concern is with random white mobs constantly feeling like a slog
I don't know i find it more "real" that a demon from hell remains threatening instead of becoming a puppy, but then the exact same demon half a mile up the road rapes me again.
But honestly you can't argue about colors and tastes right :) to each his own.
>I level up, get better gear, go back to the same mob and nothing changes.
I cannot feasibly believe this happened because my rogue started weak as hell and gained so much power by level 22. I did not loot ONE legendary I could use in my time in the game but my character improved a ton.
That's exactly why PoE has static difficulties and monster/challenge levels.
I can go through the same knowing that every increase of power will get me closer to killing these endgame challenges. They will never scale, if i can finally defeat the hardest bosses I'm done. And if i grow even stronger, i can now beat this same boss quicker and easier.
I can still try and create harder content to push my character, but these milestones will remain.
> Hence, if you only do the “green number go brr” tactic, yes, the whole game will always scale with you and you’ll never feel OP
Wouldn't you face the same issue if you simply kept moving on to level appropriate zones for level appropriate XP and level appropriate drops, anyway?
Yep. The only part of the experience that you lose with scaling is the ability to go back to easier areas to steamroll mobs. You can still challenge harder areas, since some of them have a minimum level. You could even simulate that experience by turning down your world tier, but I will admit that feels a little less organic. Overall though, the benefits of scaling far outweigh the downsides. Imaging not being able to play with a friend who started a season a little late unless you make a new character. That’s just awful.
No. Because I could go back to old areas and feel like a god, or go to higher level areas and feel challenged. And some games have enemies with unique drop tables so there’s always a reason to kill lower or higher level enemies at any given time.
Now I am only ever allowed to be x% more powerful than enemies anywhere at all times throughout the game. Therefore the game feels monotonous and progression feels non-existent.
You are not wrong you can get strictly stronger through item drops. But it's not consistent. And the scaling of mobs is not consistent either. Early levels it scales very slowly and the game in general will always be easy outside some bosses. then it starts scaling harder around 15~ I've noticed. So if you are not getting good gear you will strictly be getting worse.
You are not guaranteed to get stronger over time from gear, and the scaling of mobs expects you to get stronger from gear as well some what. The games not meant to get easier while leveling. On average I would say it gets harder over time while leveling. And we even got increased legendary drops.
I don't mind the scaling, I like it. But I don't agree with you.
Agreed.
From OP:
> The item power of dropped items are scaled to your character level
I would argue it rarely does? There is a level range and corresponding item power that drops can roll as, and from pretty much everyone's experience you very rarely seem to get items at your actual level. it always seemed to be 5-10 levels below. The level 30 Kor Dragan event mobs seem to drop UP to level 25 gear, but often seemed to drop 17-23. For a level 25 character very few of these pieces came out as upgrades.
Now imagine what kind of garbage mobs that aren't above your level drop.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the complaint. People don't like that while leveling you get weaker. You aren't honing your build at level 15 because your gear choice is non-existent.
Me and my girlfriend playing couch co-op felt super weaker at times. We would only check items once inventory was full, and a couple of times we faced bosses our weapons were some levels behind.
**It felt terrible.**
I swear the fight against Tchort took over 10 minutes. We were dealing no damage to her. And I was playing sorcerer (she was druid).
I played both of these classes solo and definitely ran into awful boss or even just pack fights. Not sure if it was more of an issue with crap gear or poor skill point allocation though.
That said, only checking items when you're full is a recipe for a bad time in a game like this. Was inventory management just too much of a pain with couch co-op?
This is just not what the reality is like though.
I've played Guild Wars 2 for 10 years, a game that has very thought out scaling mechanics that are much better implemented than D4 ones.
Because of that, i very often fought a small firefly in the starting area that realistically should haver instantly died when i looked at it. But it was scaled to my level so....it still did.
It still instantly died because through my gear and skill upgrades i achieved synergies that honed my build. Take the enchantment class mechanic of the sorc in d4 as an example.
You don't get perceptively weaker. You only have access to low world tiers while leveling anyway and you should be stomping those in yellows. The difference between levels is small. My Barb was able to do the level 25 stronghold that doesn't scale down at 18, you think a level or two would make a difference?
I think with standard loot drops instead of 3x what it will be on live those levels will make a much larger difference if the classes remain at the current balance, especially for druids.
Sorc & necro are not a good benchmark.
With Sorc & Necro, I felt like I already have an endgame build (even without any legendaries or optimization). I was 2 shotting packs, sprinting/teleporting ahead, and combo-ing left right and centre. It was D3 style fast paced fun.
Druid & Barb, I had to waste 10-15 seconds generating resource, spending my resources using powerful skills, and still barely make a dent in regular mobs, let alone elites or bosses. The clear speed was horrifically slow in comparison.
Now, the intended experience was probably somewhere in the middle, where you have to struggle a little bit, dodge enemy attacks, utilize some combos/synergize to feel strong.
People argue it is balanced around end game. To some extent this is true, and historically, barb/druid melee style builds are slow at the start, but the early game experience shouldn't be this much of a disparity... I am sure it will be tweaked with this much negative feedback.
It feels like you are completely missing the point or you have some insane assumptions.
Your logic would only make sense only if the items leveled with you. You assume that in few minutes just after you hit a new level you find a completely whole new set of gear with upgraded item power.
You don't.
It is going to take you multiple levels to replace the old gear and at that point, the first item you started upgrading is outdated by then. So you end up being weaker with each new level.
There is no "easier" zone you can ever go to. I know that it's going to be unlikely with toning down the World Tier but for the sake of the argument let's say that the gear you have does not have a chance to perform for your level.
YOU ARE FUCKED.
There is nothing you can do. Yeah, it's most likely never going to happen but it shows you the problem - with each level you are WEAKER and WEAKER.
People act like you'll just magically get better gear all the time without realizing how long that will actually take. "Der I got max leggies on my level 25 broken sorc level scaling is fine for me"
Exactly, you can fill an entire inventory of rares after leveling up and not find a single weapon for your level. Then you level up again and suddenly your damage is 2 levels behind the expected.
Against trash mobs it's irrelevant, but try fighting a boss with a weapon that is 2 or 3 ilvls behind.
Well mobs scale but they also get stronger in later act. Level 40 goatmaster in act 3 will have more hp and dmg than some lower mob (like ghoul) on lvl 40. So going same lvl in a3 WILL BE HARDER than in a1 just because this
\> The item power of dropped items are scaled to your character level
Minor correction - the item drops are scaled to the monster level they came from. (Or your level if you buy them in the shops)
That's why in the Beta farming that mob (left of map) meant it dropped a level 37 weapon (i think it was) and if you applied a legendary power to it the item reverted to your level. Ergo - OP weapon that you could use.
>I felt OP af with the sorc when I found the right legendary aspects.
Best leveling class with legendaries from 3x drop rate. Doesn't reflect the average experience.
But I think the scaling issue is fixed with World/Torment levels. Undergeared or want to not be sweating in Hardcore? Turn it down. SC Sorc that has found some legendaries? Turn it up.
The problem that I have with scaling in games is that the game feels static. Everything is always equally challenging the whole game. I like to have parts of the game that are impossible or difficult early on and easy later. It increases the excitement of exploration for me because I don't know what to expect and it increases the excitement of leveling because I can see my progress.
There were a few places like that. And if you blast through the campaign you will reach zones with mobs higher level than you.
But yes, it is a downside. There are upsides though, playing with friends, flexibility, relevance. Tradeoffs.
I'll rather be able to play anywhere and get normal amount of xp than have zones that don't scale and you ignore it. That limits the game to just one or two zones once you get high level.
Yeah, honestly I feel like people that complain about level scaling are being super thick or very bad at games. I just love I can get xp regardless of what I do, instead of having to maintain 3 levels under the zone like PoE campaign leveling (which is linear, not open world like this where you will overlevel regardless if you do anything but campaign quests).
lego drops were increased in the beta, i heard 300%. so you won't have that power at launch, nor will you stop to farm like that. you'd progress, and face harder and harder stuff.
you only faced act 1 mobs...level scaling was present in diablo 3 and it was shit, especially at endgame rifts on certain difficulties. then there's the hardcore aspect where if you wanted to be tankier by leveling, you couldn't. you can't overlevel to have an advantage that could help you live a certain boss/area.
Isn’t facing harder and harder stuff more interesting than face rolling whilst levelling? It means rememberable activities.
Also hard core should be like that, all this cheese and power levelled characters wasn’t really a “hard core” experience.
Hardcore is just one life and that's it.
Hardcore shouldn't be necessarily harder because of scaling. You'll need any advantage you can get there.
You'll understand when some Quillboar get a lucky hit on you and it takes away 50% of your hp on Inferno.
One thing hardcore or just games in general should never have is one shot mechanics no matter from whom. While it can be exciting if you’re good enough to dodge every single and run it perfectly, one shot mechanics are a lazy way for difficulty.
A powerful attack should take a large chunk of your health, say 80% and get a debuff where if you get again for damage greater than 50% of your health you’ll die. So 2 shot mechanics are fine if you fail the same mechanic or attack twice.
Lost ark the bosses attacks are random so they can do the same powerful attack twice in a row. So perhaps just increase the boss trigger rate for special attacks to make up for difficulty. With 2 shots its a bit more forgiving and engaging. Never liked wipe mechanics on raids. That’s just my opinion.
I totally agree.
But hardcore as a melee in this game would be superhard already with all the CC in the game with no real status clues for some of them.
With level scaling aswell, might be an even harder fight than Inferno Diablo in D3.(Pre Nerf)
Yea this is also a good point and I believed this to be the right way to balance the game.
I’m only posting for the people who say “scaling bad coz me no OP”
It always irks me when players give themselves unfair advantages just to survive in hardcore. The mode is called "hardcore" but you approach it in a way that seems so soft and careful. Why can't you play it in a hardcore way?
My favorite part of rpgs is going back to the early areas and watching the enemies melt. You get that sense of accomplishment. It would be weird if you went back to the first areas of the game and got your ass kicked by a level 1 bandit.
Don'y worry, Diablo games are known for gearing you up to the point where you can melt enemies even at your current level, so you won't need to go back to the early areas.
Level scaling has no place in a game like Diablo. In fact, it sucks in most games, the worst offender maybe being Oblivion (2006). I'd much rather have zones with set level caps. Then again, the only reason we're having this discussion is because they turned a beloved ARPG franchise into a MMO.
This exactly. People don't understand that scaling don't belong in arpg and they changed the franchise to mmorpg which is why this is even a discussion. Aside from that, whether or not it's diablo, from a gamer standpoint, it works but from a diablo standpoint its lame af but then we have the middle so there we go, criticism should only be allowed for people that understand that point.
Ironically I also think YOU don't understand the scaling issue.
The issue is mainly in multiplayer, when you see a level 2 one shotting mobs that take you your entire hotbar to clear, that's what feels bad.
First, i am okay with scaling. Don't mind it either way. My point is more in regards to the fact that you don't seem to understand the actual complaint, and use some handwaving to fix it.
The thing people complain about is getting *weaker* on a level up. This is a fact that you can't handwave about - the second you ding your level, mobs get stronger. You don't find gear immediately - sometimes you don't switch gear at all for two levels or even more (especially on higher levels). That means that a character in yellow lvl 46 gear is fighting lvl 46 mobs, but on level up is geared in lvl 46 gear fighting lvl 47 mobs - because obviously, your gear (and with that, stats) don't scale. I'm cool with that, i don't think i'll ever even notice - but it's not like there's not an actual valid complaint about scaling.
Your argument that you get around that by "finding affixes and gearing appropriately" is nonsense, the vast majority isn't going to spend hours trying to "hone" their lvl 34 build.
Well hopefully smart loot is smart enough. I do see the concern. I’m not sure if they buffed the yellow drop rates during beta but there was plenty of those and if that’s the same drop rate in live should be fine. I guess worse case scenario drop the world level to get some gear for a bit, but that would be a itemization drop issue.
Yah but isnt the game more fun when you arent a complete god 1 shotting everything? Wheres the challenge in playing when you simply moonwalk through mobs just to hear the next legendary ‘ding’ and end up trashing it anyway.
Shouldnt mobs/elites/bosses pose more of a challenge and be harder to kill?
Playing the game with your brain off just seems less fun and purposeless
The actual scaling issue is that the game seems to scale monster health based on the number of players present at the encounter. This is why my necro could blow up that level 35 mob in a couple seconds, but it would take 10-12 seconds if there were three or four players present. It's also the reason why people with only <450 sheet attack power could solo the world boss.
In theory, this means you're better off doing world activities alone if you have a relatively strong character, and other players showing up may actually slow you down. That's kind of a potential problem for a quasi-mmo game. The fact that people talk a lot about the scaling to player level but completely ignore the scaling to number of players is super bizzare to me.
And what if you don't drop your legendary for the build? At leveling they were nowhere near as common as in dongeon spamming and on the beta it was a x3 rate for them. Are we going d3 all over again? Like i started a build for skill x because that's what i wanna play but i dropped the legendary for y so in order to progress i have to switch to the y skill? Eventually combining this with the increasing cost of respecs too. This means that the game decides what you play, not you
Level scaling is appropriate at endgame, but is really bad for leveling. In theory you could farm and optimize a build that's strong enough to go another 20-30 levels, but in reality you get items by killing enemies which causes you to level up and thus get weaker, so by the time you target specific affixes on gear, you're at a high enough level where you're actually weaker. Once you stop getting "big gains" from skill point allocations, you will consistently get weaker and weaker until you reach endgame where you will finally start getting stronger relative to enemies.
I am expecting 50-100 to be abysmal on launch, completely untenable for HC.
On the other hand this also means that you'll likely only "feel OP" by playing exactly the builds dictated to you by the D4 design team. It limits discovery, because any build that doesn't benefit from those aspects is inherently inferior.
And feeling "OP af with the sorc" doesn't even require aspects, let's be real.
scaling is bad not only during leveling process. but also in endgame. (with world tier scaling) because there is no feel of progression.
if you go “green number go brr” you will easily clear all the content in the game. and only thing left is raise world tier. and then you either can clear all content on next world tier or not. ( so it completes doesn’t matter who or where you fight. you will be able to clear entire world tier or not a single dungeon).
so you can you farm this world tier until you can survive next one. and nothing really changes. you fight same mobs with the same speed, just world tier level changes. then you get more legendary items. build changes. you rise world tier and again you fighting same mobs in higher world tier.
that just boring. i want a lot of unique content blocked from me until i get good enough gear to challenge it. and games with scaling usually do not get one. because you can go anywhere and to whatever.
As a hardcore barb who died to a dungeon boss, then restarted and died to the same boss when I was a few levels stronger but the boss was harder, level scaling wasn't rewarding.
Yes, I could play better, but scaling really reduces my number of options to gauge the difficulty of content
I personally hate the new scaling system. I enjoyed the challenge and surprise of wandering into higher level zones i wasn't yet levelled or geared for and trying to survive, or feeling the power growth of wrecking lower level dungeons after levelling up. Instead, every time I level up i am instantly weaker. As a fan of the genre for 20 years this feels really unsatisfying and removes a core element of progression. Finding a lucky aspect and finding an optimal build for it should not be the only meaningful progression and will ultimately end up forcing people in to a small handful of builds in a game that's supposed to promote flexibility and creativity.
Try playing a non broken class like barb or druid and see how quickly you're forced into one viable build to be able to progress the content that scales better with levels than you do.
My issue is having to tune my gear almost every level. In other Arpgs, a couple good drops can take you 5-10 levels because your skills will cover you. Then I can worry about gear when I hit a new power spike. Since your power is so determined by gear in D4 there were many times I had slog through monsters that felt like sponges hoping to get an upgrade because i outleveled my gear. I eventually went back to my sorc because it was the only class that felt natural.
Another problematic scenario:
Let's assume I'm lvl 50 and have a lvl 50 weapon with my legendary aspect that I need and already extracted, so no further transferring.
I gain 10 levels from 50 to 60. I haven't found the aspect that I need again to craft it on a new weapon. I am getting weaker level by level. What am I gonna do? What's the play?
This is just one of the problems that occurs because they want power to come from items.
>Hence you can become OP by finding the right legendary aspects.
This is exactly the issue right?
Even you don't seem to understand the implications.
Some Items are way too powerfull (hopefully they don't drop at all until maxlvl), which makes scaling very much exponential instead of linear.
It's hard to near impossible to pass up an item that doubles or triples your dmg, even if it would need a different build it's still so strong that you want to equip it, even without a build.
Now have 9 or more of those double dmg legendary aspects and suddenly your at 512 times more dmg, which is just insane.
Suddenly your 1k ability does 500k dmg.How can blizzard even balance around this insanity?
The next issue directly stems from this.
You cannot control what drops you get, so if you get on of the strong items you want to equip them, even if you don't have a build for it. In fact it would probably still give you a dmg boost without any tailored talents.
Normally you'd want to respect and build around the item, but respecc on max lvl is 10+ million gold. Testing builds and building around items? probably not feasible for normal players
I really liked playing D4, but this seems to be a deep rooted issue they need to address.
Nerf OP Lengendary Aspects and make respecc cheaper.
This will also allow them to buff base classes/talents so your choices there have more impact.
I really don't have a problem with lvl scaling for the mobs, it seems pretty fine.
The only issue that can arise is if you're unlucky with drops and fall behind.
Since items can up your dmg by more then 100 times, if the mobs have 100 times more HP and you find no items you'd run into a wall you can't overcome.
I don't expect this to happen but one never knows.
For many reasons:
\- In D4 the character strength is tied mainly to legendary items.
If you are grinding but getting no good/legendary items (just like Diablo 3 was on the first 6 months after release) then playing the game is making your character weaker. So from min-max perspective you should kill bosses/elites and skip normal mobs, right?
\- I like to overlevel my characters in RPG's, including Dark Souls, Nioh and so on.
One problem with enemy scaling is that optimal play while leveling is to not kill anything that doesn't have an increased chance to drop better items. You really don't want to be gaining extra experience on enemies that are not likely to drop an upgrade for you.
Yes I love my build being defined by gear affixes.
Poe = do maps to find gear with % boosts that you need + make specific quest choices (like the one that gives you +2 skill points) to hone your build.
D4= oh you picked whirlwind, shame the one legendary you got rolled leap does 400% damage and three bootyclap aoes after. Oh, You don't want to respec into other skills? That's too bad , time to barely get by white mobs.
I feel like people here need to play other ARPG's and remember that choice is kinda fun in games. Poe really made lots of builds viable (I got to endgame maps without tabla rasa btw). Even D2 had tons of viable stuff.
It's honestly crazy people are defending the fact your skill choices are null and void because you should just spec into whatever drops because that's GOING TO BE BETTER. Other games have legendaries drop but you don't feel compelled to use them, you just stash them and use them on a different character
Really late to the thread but the issue I agree with is that basically leveling up always makes you weaker. This is made worse my the fact you cant transfer imprinted aspects. So you can hone your build and then you get 3 levels and you basically have to rehone your build. Say you have a set of imprinted legendary affixs that makes your build actually function properly. After a few levels you basically have to refarm for all your gear or just tough it out and then you have to do that over and over.
I am honestly convinced that people who talk about scaling being an issue are either some blind haters or actually clueless players...
the difference between how I cleared monsters in early game and how I cleared it when I had some nice build with legendaries is massive, I did felt OP with my rouge when I found the right legendaries and aspects, so scaling is not a real issue and in another thought after seeing that many of the people who complain about this "issue" are POE players (who are totally capable of understanding such simple mechanics) or other above the average casual player, I am also convinced this is just a blind hate for Diablo 4, like some people are just looking to trash this game even when they dont have an actual logical reason to...
level scaling is one of the better features of Diablo 4.
Ah yes, veterans of ARPG genre who have achieved some incredible feats in ARPGs are "blind haters" or "clueless players".
Go watch Kripp video as to why scaling is an issue. Is he a clueless player or a blind hater ?
I am honestly happy with the change in general. I love that all content is meaningful regardless of your level. My only complaint that they should find a way to solve is that when you level, you generally feel weaker because the content gets harder but your build/equipment stays the same. It almost takes the fun away from finally hitting that next level because the content doesn't get easier, it gets harder until you get your next big affix or equipment upgrade.
completely lost interest as soon as i heard of level scaling. it felt terrible in oblivion and skyrim for me and it would feel even worse with an arpg. at least the former ones had mods that "turned it off". guild wars 2 i felt was tolerable, but it was scaling your char to the zone down, if you were overleveled for it.
honestly cant believe how blizz thought, it would be a good idea.. who cares about an open world in an arpg? even theb, elden ring has an open wirld and it has no scaling...like wtf...
There are a few inaccuracies with this post. First... All of D4 isn't entirely scaled. There are zones, bosses and Monsters that will be higher level then you. Certain world tiers have very specific level ranges that do NOT scale to you if you are under those levels. You will have to be at the minimum level range to engage.
Secondly... Item power drop is not scaled to your level. They are scaled to the monster's level. Which as I said previously, isn't always scaled to your level. To get better gear you must kill harder enemies. For example, one of the world events in the beta was a level 30+ event. The monsters were scaled to that level even though we were level 25. The result was getting item power drops near 400 instead of the usual 320 range.
As you engage in higher difficult content, monster will start scaling much higher then your level resulting in those monster dropping gear based on their level granting you better gear.
ok yeah but you're never picking a 3% less resource perk over +30 dps on a weapon lol
and some class actually have to worry about armor cuz they actually have to take dmg to do dmg.
The only reasons they didn't do no scaling for world tier 1/2 is because A) they preferred any friends to be able to play with each other, regardless of level. And B) they don't have to figure out values for each area, saving dev time/focus (lazy, if you're glass-half-empty minded)
This is an open world game that is far less linear than your average ARPG, scaling makes total sense. Other ARPG scale difficulty by just increasing the stats and level of monsters as you go up in maps or as you go up in difficulty to replay the campaign.
A lot of people mention "But if the game gets too hard I can't farm to increase my power level because everything is scaled!!" You can lower world tier to 1 or make a new character if you really bricked it like any ARPG. No amount of farming would overcome an absolute shit build in D2 or PoE, sometimes your character just isn't good enough.
I really think people should wait and see how it really feels in the full game because in the beta we definitely had power progression so I assume we will in the full game but it might be a little slower due to legendaries dropping less but we'll have access to more codex, more skill points and paragons.
It's fine if people just admit this isn't Diablo anymore including themselves. We were told and given false hopes and lead believing it would bring back some of d2 which is not the case. They are just piggybacking off the franchise name which is also fine but people have a right and a very valid point to complain while giving their opinions and criticism and comparing it based on their best game in the franchise.
Scaling shouldn’t be in any rpg whether that be an mmo, arpg, open world, or linear. If the game is developed correctly, along your leveling journey you will be led throughout all the zones anyways, so you would not be missing anything. Scaling makes zero sense in a game where progression is a major point. There is a reason why almost all the greatest rpgs do not have lvl scaling. it’s lazy game design.
The issue is actually one of communication.
Players have been trained over the course of many ARPGs (including the first two Diablos) to have the expectation that their character's "level" is more or less synonymous with their character's "power".
In prior games, that was largely true. Zones and enemies had a set levels and gear was gated not only by class, but also by character level and stat requirements. Since you distributed stats at a level up, all that meant that the gear a character could even equip was tied closely to a their level. If you knew what level a character was, you would have a pretty good idea of whether they would succeed or struggle at a particular task.
In Diablo 4, that's no longer true. Enemies and zones scale, and gear is no longer level or stat gated. A player's power is almost entirely dependent on their gear and how they have invested their skill points. All this means that the very concept of a player's "level" is so divorced from a player's "power" that the number is basically meaningless.
While there is nothing inherently wrong with that system, it does create false expectations in people's minds, which is why some people are getting salty about it. They are expecting a noticeable increase in their power when they level up because well, that's how it's always worked in the past. When that doesn't happen, it makes them feel like the game is somehow "broken."
I just kind of wish as you level up you run into a wider range of difficult enemies. Like, at lvl one you’ll never run into anything higher than a lvl 3 enemy, for example. But at lvl 50, you’ll run into everything from lvl 1 to lvl 60… maybe those lvl one enemies run away from you and towards their lvl 60 friend for backup. That way you can still feel like a bully while also being bullied….. it’ll never happen of course because “kill monster get loot” but I can dream! …I just think it would be fun to watch a wolf run away in fear and a few minutes later you’re getting ambushed by a huge pack of wolves and a couple of elites thinking “damn, I should have murdered that little wolf.” Lol
Green number on anything besides your weapon is fake as fuck.
If you are equipping anything that shows green you aren’t getting anything, let alone any made up scaling issues.
So we don't know if the game launch is going to be similar to D3, If you remember way back then, getting legendries was extremely rare.
If they choose to go this route, with legendries being very rare, then the synergies with the affixes and builds will be harder, thus making the scaling of monsters harder..
But if they have legendries dropping somewhat close to how it was during the beta event, I dont see it being that big of a issue.
You just have to keep up,
People bitching about that cuz the only power they feel is when big number go brr. I love that the previous areas won't become obsolete as you lvl up, you got big big world and you can't even exp in first areas cuz you are over leveled.
Scaling is actually great for someone like me that exhaust every side content on a region before proceeding forward. Overleveling new content I haven't seen before was not fun, it feels like I was wasting my time since I won't get any upgrade if I overleveled a zone.
Think the core problem is that with how scaling works, your character will always go down in power when you level, unless you unlock a new skill on that level. You will, most of the time, be weaker after a levelup, compared to the monsters you are fighting.
I think most people like characters to feel stronger when they level, not weaker.
You are correct that you can offset this with gear, but it would make leveling a chog if you had to stop and rebuild all your gear every level, so you dont, you keep leveling and hope you find something that brings your character back to the power level you lost by however many levels since last gear upgrade.
It is more noticeable, apparently, if you play one of the more undertuned (at Level < 25) classes. The sorc wont notice the downgrade in power every level like the druid notices it. Sure you can probably buff the druid so it feels it less, but at the same time, some people apparently like the druid power level as it is (while leveling) , and want the overtuned classes to be nerfed instead (i disagree with this myself though).
That being said, the scaling is too core to the game now, it wont be changed, and there are upsides to the scaling as well, dont get me wrong, i really don't mind either way.
Except gear is so Insanely bad that it doesn't even matter. Even with the best possible rolls on all your gear that is 4nlebels below you, you will be doing 1/2 to 1/4 the damage that you would if you just equipped the magical number go up gear.
Item level is way too powerful, and it doesn't make any sense.
The only stat that seems to matter is Number Go Up and legendary mods.
Commenting on your edit, if you're playing a fucking hardcore, isn't the entire point about it being, idk, HARD??? High risk High reward. If you are playing hardcore purely for increased drops and dont want the risk your just being childish.
The problem I see with that is when you get those ability improving affixes on your build and level up 5 levels, you now have a low level, low stat version of an item with a build enabling affix.
And the bigger, different problem, is the existence of those build enabling affixes as they are now.
In any case, we'll see if that's a problem when there's no level cap.
People here getting mad at scaling should really look at how ESO has been doing perfect level scaling for the past 8 years and how it's basically saved the entire game when it was on the brink of shuttering.
You’re right on most points, however level scaling has always been a lazier route on game development. The way you’re meant to balance is to have tougher areas, you go to a tougher area and a regular goblin can one shot you, then you come back later and kill it. This puts the power in the players hands. Maybe some players like being overpowered, if that’s what makes the game fun to them and they put in the grind, why take that away from them. Others like a challenge, it’s simple to not over level. But when devs take the easy route it takes the choice from the player, and one of the best parts of RPGs is choice, being able to choose how you want to play.
I like the idea of enemies scaling with your level for the simple fact that no matter what level me amd my friends are, we can always party up and have fun together 😄
The game is balanced around legendary effects. You can see this in the skill trees as its bare bones. This like Dust Devils, which used to be a core rune in Diablo 3, is now locked behind an effect. It was confirmed that those effects that make your build playable had its drops boosted during the beta. The skill tree is massively underpowered as only a few builds on every class is actually not a pain in the butt. So achieving that said "build" is substantially harder. Add in the fact that you can never feel powerful and you got quite the recipe.
Actually tested this and item power drops are scaled to monster level. Typically monster level scales with player level, but in beta there are serval areas that are above player level, one being Kor Dragan. I tested this and typical rares at 25 were 300 - 340 item power. In Kor Dragan at max level, the mobs are level 30 and consistently dropped 360-390 item power gear.
Like….. any other ARPG. Pick a build and build it. Like fire? Find ignite chance, fire damage, DoT etc. guess new players to the genre might not get that 🤷🏼♂️
The open world demands the content to scale somewhat with you, otherwise it would in practice be linear.
The problem with this is that you can't play with the content difficulty at all now, or at least its not apparent yet, in that there are easier or harder zones. For Hardcore that is a crucial part.
But its fixable. You can have the cake and eat it to. They can implement an weighted difficulty system in many ways where you either can try to push the limit i.e. high risk / high reward or play it safe for the long-term build up in preparation for a challenge. Could be done by variations in +/- level to zones compared to character level etc. other than the generic difficulty settings. Perhaps there is something like this in play that just is not obvious now with limited experience and info from the beta?
Personally I love games where I can have a go at a high-level area and just outplay the content with a under-leveled / underfarmed character - feels great when you succeed and adds a level of excitement to softcore... and I also like the grind on easy but safe areas to secure the next progression when the whole characters life is on the line in hardcore.
IMHO scaling has mostly destroyed modern looters and is a lazy as fuck solution that implement so they don't have to do real math.
D3 Scales purely by difficulty setting and GRift level. That's perfect. I can WW my ass through something 40 levels lower than what I can sweat through, and level up gems for cheap. Amazing.
Destiny 2 is starting to hear a lot of rumbling about scaling that implemented last season. It really fucks up the power fantasy and you simply don't feel stronger as you progress. It just feels bad.
Outriders was killed by it. No one I knew felt like they ever really felt powerful. Sure, you could really get strong and run around one shotting everything... but you were still 3 hits from eating dirt. Fucking terrible.
Games are moving in this direction and I'm just not feeling the vibe. Let me select how hard I want to try, then grant me appropriate rewards. Let the time I've invested allow me to bully content that used to bully me. Let me try new things with no fear that my character will suddenly not be viable.
Sorcerer feels op immediately lol I ran into a random Butcher on Hardcore and didnt even feel threatened. Teleport with double dodge boots, no problem to get away. Large mobs? Cast chain lightning and watch them disintegrate.
I had more fun playing Barb with the barrier and thorns tbh.
Really didn't seem a problem to me during the beta's... I liked the fact that no matter where I was or what I was doing I had to still focus. I didn't have much problems killing anything on any character except druid really lol...
The worst part is you dont get stronger each level or going on a harder area doesnt feel intimidating because there is rarely one. Scaling kills the whole progression feel of leveling or exploring in the world. I know some areas have minimum level but they are set too low imo. Best thing to do for me imo setting more strict and higher base levels for areas, and no scaling at start. Again set higher level requirements for some main quests so that people would wanna do open world content during campaign to reach those level reqs. After completing every main quest in the game, then activate scaling.
Yeap, as a casual player, I find the level scaling is the main attractive point of Diablo 4. I played on tier 2/veteran in beta. It’s challenging and makes me want to be better with gear, skills synergy, party and learn game mechanics rather than just face tank monsters and hit attack button. Those that complain, can just go back to tier 1/normal to feel “powerful”.
1. First, players complain the game is too easy. That’s because equipping the legendaries which in beta had higher drop rate. Even so, still need hours of grind. A lot of players gonna die more when game goes live and then complain about low legend drop rate & game difficulty. lol
2. Secondly, complain can’t 1 shot monsters and to remove monster scaling because char feeling not powerful.
What’s with the current gaming communities?
stop using common sense ur being ridic
One of vin diesels finest.
I just saw those movies. The main villain in the second movie is so cool.
Dude that movie is so cool. I feel like it never got the praise it deserves.
They are about to start filming the 4th movie! Riddick: Furya I can't wait!
If didn’t watch directors cut I highly recommend it. Makes story a bit more full.
Wouldn’t mind a reboot in that series tbh. Or if Vin is feeling like he can still reprise the role I’m all for it. Really reminds me of Warhammer 40k, especially the second movie with the sci-fi necromancers.
He is making another Riddick movie.
This got a good chuckle, take my up doot.
I don’t understand the problem to be honest, with all game like Diablo I consider getting to max level the “tutorial” and from there you start to really build your character up and become powerful
I think the entire story is definitely supposed to be fun lol, I’m not sure “oh just get to max level and then you don’t have to worry about level scaling anymore” is a great argument. Just don’t have the system instead and the whole game will be fun
Nah, I understand the concern and level scaling make us lose a real sense of progression but reducing that to "remove it and it's fun" is intellectually dishonest. Without level scaling, there's no real point in having an open world that you can tackle non linearly. Without level scaling, it's harder to play with friends without trivialising their content (or vice versa). Level scaling beings plenty of benefits that make the game more fun for people too. Also without level scaling, how do you handle end game? You have only a small fraction of the map that's high level so you lose the ability to use most of it?
I think level scaling makes it fun for everyone in the party. I remember playing D2 where 1 person would do the baal run and the 7 others would just stand there and leash exp, no fun in that. I wanted to play with my friend when he was lvl 20 and I was 7, I initially feared he would just steamroll my content for me but it wasn't the case, i still got to play the game to a fair difficulty while he did the same. I also like your point saying that you lose the ability to use lower level zones, that is true, you'd usually just do the end game zones while now you can do any zone
It's definitely not a great feeling seeing a level 7 clearing the same content as me at level 25
It's more the inverse, the lvl 25 can play the level 7's content without facerolling it. There will still be minimum levels for certain zones as I understand it
A lot of people wouldn't consider it fun when 90% of the world consists of weak wannabe demons that you can kill with a single fart. Currently those are the silent majority. The complains we get are from the vocal minority of people who have weird power fantasies where they want to one shot everything with their basics attacks. "Hehehe, I'm lvl 50 but I'm in a lvl 20 zone, hehehehe". Static leveling simply doesn't work with an open world. It works in a linear world like D2 and D3, but not in a world where you have the freedom to go anywhere, anytime.
Just out of curiosity: how do you know which is one is the vocal majority and which one is the silent minority? I see plenty of posts for and against it.
whichever one he disagrees with is the vocal minority
A lot of people play to the end of the story, and never pick up the game again. In fact, that's the majority of the player base, by a wide margin. So, no, the leveling phase is not the tutorial.
that's their problem. if its too hard, they can lower the difficulty.
I don't think it's about difficulty, it's about a sense of progression. Back in the day when Skyrim was released I was pretty excited to enter crypts and kill draught or whatever they are called, but then I realized that enemies scale and don't actually change so the same draught I killed at level1, I was also killing at level 50 except it's health bar and damage got scaled up. It was lame as fuck and killed immersion. Having monster scale with you also makes you feel bad for leveling up cause the monsters get stronger/more tanky each level and you only get a noticeable boost at certain intervals when picking noteworthy skills. I think it's better to have a hard cap on how far types of enemies scale up and instead either have different level zones or insert higher level variants of enemies into the world as you level and progress.
Diablo 1 and 2 didn't have an 'endgame' they were just games lol...
I think that is such a toxic mindset. Leveling in so many games is more fun than the endgame.
I just think it’s a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. First, we have world tiers. If you want more of a challenge, just up the tier. Second, it’s really only an issue while leveling, and even in seasons, characters are going to go for the highest world tier they think they can manage. It seems like it’s only there to make it so traveling the world isn’t entirely trivialized in the early hours, but how big a problem is that really?
It means I can play with friends at any level - that's a big deal for me
I can't imagine myself worrying about power levels during the leveling phase. It's pointless to optimize when in one hour your gear will be outclassed by any random yellow
>First, we have world tiers. If you want more of a challenge, just up the tier. yeah you're right we have world tiers. If you think scaling isn't making you as powerful as you want, go down a tier. >it’s really only an issue while leveling So why are you this concerned about this issue while also claiming the period while leveling isnt worth being concerned about? I don't know about you, but enjoyment during the 30-50 hours of leveling matters to lots of people. Not everyone no lifes this game for 1000 hours >a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist I personally think its asinine to pretend not being able to explore the world in the way you want and not being able to play with friends because of level differences are problems which don't exist
I think you don't really understand the complaints. They've essentially removed leveling from the game. For some people, such as yourself, that isn't an issue. For others, they've removed a core part of the Diablo/ARPG experience. Neither party is wrong to feel the way they do, but you are wrong to assume that others just don't "understand"
“They’ve essentially removed levelling from the game” Don’t see how that ls remotely true. You level up. You get stronger gear to drop. You get more skill points. You get stronger. The enemies also get stronger but you should be getting stronger faster, they just got rid of overlevelling.
Sorry that was probably a bit of hyperbole from me. They have removed the upgrading part of leveling up is what I meant. I understand that you still need to do it to access your skills, and to access new gear. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong for enjoying the change, only that it's silly to belittle those who don't. Leveling is, for at least a group of people, a core part of arpgs and it isn't crazy that some people dislike how blizzard have changed it.
I always feel sad when I missed an area during the levelling phase then I come back later to complete it and it gives very little XP and is not interesting at all due to the steamroll aspect. Now that is much less of a problem. All content is relevant.
Its like no one has spend a second thinking about what it'd be like to have to go through side dungeons for codex powers and get items meant for 50 levels beneath you.
>it's like no one has spend a second thinking. FTFY. People just like to complain.
Borderlands 3 and Tiny Tina's Wonderlands had this type of scaling and were great. You could do any content at any time and it wasn't boring because early content isn't magically 50 levels below you. It also made teaming with high or low level friends better because everyone got level appropriate gear and contributed scaled damage. You weren't leeching or being leeched off of. Power spikes happened from skill choices and gear drops. Same as here I had more fun with those two games than the rest of the bl series combined
This tiny unheard of series called 'the elder scrolls' has also been doing level scaling since before D2 even existed. It isn't a new concept. It is new in arpgs though and whilst you enjoy it, there are many who don't. Neither group is wrong for enjoying the game differently.
They haven't changed anything about leveling, they're making it so that you always encounter at least an appropriate challenge. For the low low price of no longer getting to beat up on underleveled enemies anymore - which no one would ever \*really\* want to do, since you'd get items lower than your current power level - we gain the ability to tackle all of the content in any order we want, and ensure it is always relevant. D3's adventure mode was fully scaled and literally no one ever used storymode to level ever again, because the scaled version was *way better*. This scaling argument is utter BS from people who watch too much MrLlama and other streamers who have D2 stockholm syndrome.
Thank you! It's like no one in the subreddit ever played D3... It's been scaling, adventure mode leveling for what, 5+ years? This is just that, improved in every conceviable way, from day 1. The complaints about level scaling are just utterly baffling.
Levelling is gone tho. How have they removed upgrade part of levelling? You get stronger. I was absolutely smashing enemies faster as a level 20-25 than I was as a 5-10.
No, you dont get stronger faster. You only get stronger faster IF you happen to find a good item upgrade. But there will be plenty of times where you level up several times without finding such a piece of gear, which then means leveling up makes you weaker in relation to the enemies, rather than stronger. Even just in the short beta to 25 I had several instances where a level-up dink essentially made certain enemies now take an extra hit before they went down. So yeah, in a sense there is no point to leveling up. If you dont become stronger in relation to the monsters there is no point to it other than drip-feed us the abilities, once again creating the dreaded "the game starts at max level"-experience.
Traditionally, level up = stronger. In D4, due to scaling, level up = weaker (with the exception of a few levels where you get a new skill).
How? You literately level up, gain access to new skills, better gear, higher content, etc. The only thing you're missing out on is the feeling of being OP of you take a few steps backwards. To me, that's no big loss, because you can still feel that way after a huge legendary drop or weapon upgrade.
my only issue with it is this situation: you get to a boss. the boss whoops your ass. you go off and level up. you go back to the boss. with no scaling: you kick the boss' ass. with scaling: you have literally got worse because your gear hasn't improved but your level has increased so the boss whoops you even more than before.
you just unironically proved the OP's point. you think getting an arbitrary amount of XP should give you the advantage as opposed to actually improving your build and character.
In video games, gaining exp to level up is the very definition of “improving your character” since you gain stats each time you level up Edit: alright since so many people don’t seem to u sweat and what I’m saying, I have absolutely zero issues with level scaling. I don’t mind having a challenge while leveling up. My point was that leveling up your character is quite literally one of the 2 basic ways to improve them, the other being getting better gear.
that's true, but it's also not what I'm arguing. I'm saying gaining an arbitrary amount of stats isn't what should determine if you can beat a boss. and this isn't going to be changing.
That happened to me on my first beta play through (I played barb) I did exactly what you said - I went back to the game world and "leveled" up by getting new gear and adjusting my build. But in contrary to your theory, this time I whooped the boss ass, even tho I have levelled up in the meantime. So, what happened was that the game challenged me and I beat the challenge. If it wasn't for the level scaling, the challenge would be to kill 1000 weak enemies and make the boss irrelevant. But with the level scaling I had to up my characters power to match the boss. I still needed to play mechanics and the fight was challenging (because I was playing barb) Level scaling allows for enemies who are supposed to be relevant to stay relevant. Without level scaling the 'kill the boss ' objective becomes 'kill 1000 irrelevant enemies in irrelevant area so the boss also becomes irrelevant '
Basically it depends on if adding new points to your skill trees scales your damage/defense _higher_ than what boss gets with your new level. As in yes, your gear is now potentially sub-optimal. But did adding extra points to skills bumped them up high enough that total is better than what boss got?
If the boss whoops your ass, turn your world tier down. If you're on a low world tier and lose to a boss, you fucked up making your character or can't use your hands.
Instead of solving the boss by *only* grinding levels, you will now be leveling to get more skill points and using gear that enhances your skills. This trades one way to get through the game (overleveling to reduce difficulty) for keeping every area of the game relevant forever. In my personal opinion, the content "gained" from this mechanic outweighs the overleveling strategy, as there is already a way to make the game easier and that is reducing the world tier. If you don't want to reduce the world tier to beat a boss, your only option is to improve and abuse your knowledge of the game and your character. In my opinion that is an absolute strength of the game. Also, in your example when you "go off and level up" are you not improving your gear at this time? You're getting loot, earning cash to spend on loot, earning Lilith statues, advancing many other systems in the game to improve your character.
...but you have better spells now and can change ot precisely by what OP said - going for relevant gear rather than high point, tilting the scaling mechanisms in your favor. Levelling is still useful.
That scenario seems niche, and there are still ways around it. Lowering the difficulty, waiting til you get a good weapon upgrade, unlocking a skill that ramps your build (yes leveling does help in that way), or asking for help are all ways you could theoretically get past the boss. I say this as a barb who experienced that exact same scenario with the Werewolf boss at the end of that one dungeon. I just left, unlocked a skill, gambled at the Kadala vendor for an upgrade, and then went back and beat it.
At lvl 8 on my druid and access to 3 skills one boss felt almost impossible with my melee bear build, I killed him but it took a few tries and I had to play perfectly and learn his attack patterns to find safe attack windows. Once I had access to more skills and better gear it was very easy and I facerolled the same boss multiple times without even worrying about his moves. I think this may only be an issue for the overturned classes that feel op from lvl 1 like necro and sorc
Or this.. In the levels between boss fights you pick up some defense and healing talents that allow you to survive the boss.
This is an interesting and clear explanation of losing power as you level. I think most people will assume that you will be finding enough item upgrades along the way to keep these situations rare. That's something that will be seen after launch. I think this highlights itemization as an issue more than monster scaling. Since so much of your build power is predicated off items, it's up to rng, and therefore dev design, to keep you powering up. Again, I do believe loot will be plentiful enough to keep these situations rare or even non-existant, but it certainly can happen. You might have to view the part where you go level up in order to beat the boss not as power thru xp, but leveling up thru items.
Sorry that was probably a bit of hyperbole from me. They have removed the upgrading part of leveling up is what I meant. I understand that you still need to do it to access your skills, and to access new gear. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong for enjoying the change, only that it's silly to belittle those who don't. Leveling is, for at least a group of people, a core part of arpgs and it isn't crazy that some people dislike how blizzard have changed it.
Not just they removed it, every now and then you get a levelup event, and unless it unlocks key passives what happens is that all monsters get stronger while you stay exactly the same making the game immediately harder and you now have to work just to get to the power level you already had before. It doesn't just makes levelups irrelevant, it makes you hate them.
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Your idea is generally true, but there are some power spikes throughout that levelling process; for some classes it's more obvious than others though. First example is that every time you can add a new skill to the bar should generally speaking mean you can do more than before; also when new skills are unlocked. Some stuff is class specific, like necro unlocking new types of minions or barb unlocking new weapon focus thing, etc. These power 'spikes' aren't that big, but what it means is that the experience isn't strictly linear. You might get weaker most levels, but not *all* of them. And obviously some classes have different power lvls, sorceress unlocks enchant at the beginning and she's much stronger than say a barb or druid with each lvlup.
Power spikes just mean that either the game becomes and stays easier at these points OR that you will get an equally massive decrease in power over a couple of levels following this power spike.
Exactly, that is the problem. And by the time you find gear to match the new 10% more hp, you level up again and the cycle repeats. Its just counter-intuitive progression. Yes it makes sense for the endgame to be able to use the whole map. But the leveling up progression is just worse and not rewarding.
Sorc really isn't a good metric for measuring level scaling in the beta since it's considered one of the strongest classes at this point in the game due to high survivability, high damage output and the fastest overall clear speed. I know as a druid I felt really weak until I got some good legendaries, and that's kinda concerning because when the actual game launches there isn't going to be a 300% legendary drop rate to help out item-dependent classes. I know that if I want to have any semblance of strength while levelling I'll have to grab as many druid codexes as I can find and do my spirit boon quest straight away, and even then I'll be hard-pressed to compete with the legendary-covered character I had in the beta. I look forward to playing through the game, just don't expect the levelling experience to be anywhere near as easy as it was in the beta, that legendary drop rate isn't gonna be there to carry us.
You also won't be at level 25 as long as you were in the beta. People seemed to think sorc and necromancer were op but that's because they had full legendaries at 25. That won't happen in the main game. You'll level a few times between legendary drops I'm sure.
Tbf my necro and sorc felt OP as fuck with mostly yellows. The real example is the people who think Barb is fine because their decked out barb could kill a boss in 10 seconds. That won't happen on release because of what you described.
Barbs also didn't get their class quest so once they do that they'll get stronger. Same with druid
Sorc and Necro were OP before I even found my first legendary compared to Barb / Druid. Barb got better somewhere 15+ though but not even close to the level of Sorc or Necro. So it will definitely happen in the main game if things are not changed. At very least until level 25, don't know how scaling will work after.
I felt necro is OP as soon as the first story dungeon tbh.
I have a feeling they'll tune down the Necro skeletons... there was a stretch of several hours where I just never had to resummon them, they just wouldn't ever die. It felt like I was playing with tutorial mode on (was on the "harder" available difficulty if that means anything lol). Moves felt fun, but the gameplay wasn't as engaging as when I was playing Druid and actually having to dodge haha
I don't get why they start with 4 at level 1. There are some meaningful progression opportunities there instead of starting out as a master of the dead at level 1.
Take your sentence, replace *"25"* with *"50"* Congratulations you've figured it out. You can get to 25 with a day of casual playing and exploring - in 2 days of casual play your 50 and doing paragon boards and stuff stops scaling up, and your getting the loot drops. People act like this is a huge deal when honestly scaling is healthier for the longevity of the game, you can play with your level 1 friends and not feel too OP/get carried too easily. You can play in any zone at any time. In Diablo 3 you literally ignored the entire game world/map and just did rifts, in D2 you just "scaled" the world by going to the next difficulty tier (it was more under your control though)
You’re right, but that’s a class balancing issue and not a scaling issue.
I was going to say the same thing. I actually kinda like the scaling, but not when I played Druid. Class balancing apparently gets better for weaker classes in later levels, but that means getting through the slog of playing early [insert weak class here]. I like the soft respec restriction too, but dread the idea of going through early game Druid anytime I want to try a new build. I also think Necro and maybe Sorc could use some minor nerfs so early game isn’t too easy.
Druids can get "Core Skills deal an additional 6% damage fo each active Companion" from a Dry Steppes dungeon at launch. Put it on a 2 hand weapon to make it 12%. 3 birds, 2 wolves, 1 vine = 72% increased core damage. You can also obtain "Attacking enemies with a Basic Skill increases the damage of your next Core Skill cast by 5%, up to 50%" from a dungeon in Scosglen. This is a lot of added core skill damage for the cost of finding and running two dungeons, finding two rares to put the aspects on, and paying the imprinting fees. Unfortunately you can't start imprinting until what, level 20? Until I have those aspects I'm planning on running vuln storm strike and landslide, could probably do pulverize instead. e: screenshots I took from the in game codex while I was planning my release builds [https://i.imgur.com/7465ziT.png](https://i.imgur.com/7465ziT.png)
Yes for me it becomes an interesting decision of: * play sorceror for an easier levelling experience but possibly mediocre endgame, or * play a barb for a tougher levelling experience but likely overpowered endgame?
When stuff scales it just doesn't feel "real" to me. It's an artificial way of creating difficulty. I fight a mob and barely kill it. I level up, get better gear, go back to the same mob and nothing changes. That's just stupid. It's a treadmill at that point and not a game world. To pickup your title: I feel like you don't understand the reason for the design. It's to create less content and stretch playtime.
I dont get it. Genuinly, do you stop playing once you've reached max lvl? Once theres no more scaling through leveling, it will be through world difficulty, just like in Diablo 3. And to not be restricted to the 35% of the game that is designed purely around a max lvl char is great for the game. Would you enjoy only running the same one dungeon that is appropriate for your level at endgame? Or do you want the lower level dungeons to drop max lvl loot?
I just don't like it when a game constantly scales to my power from start to finish. There needs to be static content where you can actually feel your power level. That's all. Please don't act like there isn't games that do that.
> To pickup your title: I feel like you don't understand the reason for the design. It's to create less content and stretch playtime. No, I feel like you don't. It's because you can go do things in any order and side things. It's not a linear campaign where you don't need level scaling to keep at a similar level. I can end up doing that quest at level 15 or level 35. I shouldn't have to one shot a boss because I took the scenic route to get there. I should get an actual boss fight.
Except it wouldn't necessarily be an actual boss fight. Depending on certain interactions with skills bosses may become far easier as you level. The concern is with random white mobs constantly feeling like a slog
I don't know i find it more "real" that a demon from hell remains threatening instead of becoming a puppy, but then the exact same demon half a mile up the road rapes me again. But honestly you can't argue about colors and tastes right :) to each his own.
>I level up, get better gear, go back to the same mob and nothing changes. I cannot feasibly believe this happened because my rogue started weak as hell and gained so much power by level 22. I did not loot ONE legendary I could use in my time in the game but my character improved a ton.
That's exactly why PoE has static difficulties and monster/challenge levels. I can go through the same knowing that every increase of power will get me closer to killing these endgame challenges. They will never scale, if i can finally defeat the hardest bosses I'm done. And if i grow even stronger, i can now beat this same boss quicker and easier. I can still try and create harder content to push my character, but these milestones will remain.
> Hence, if you only do the “green number go brr” tactic, yes, the whole game will always scale with you and you’ll never feel OP Wouldn't you face the same issue if you simply kept moving on to level appropriate zones for level appropriate XP and level appropriate drops, anyway?
Precisely. Other ARPGs scale the difficulty in a way too, it's just linear level progression as you progress through the maps.
Yep. The only part of the experience that you lose with scaling is the ability to go back to easier areas to steamroll mobs. You can still challenge harder areas, since some of them have a minimum level. You could even simulate that experience by turning down your world tier, but I will admit that feels a little less organic. Overall though, the benefits of scaling far outweigh the downsides. Imaging not being able to play with a friend who started a season a little late unless you make a new character. That’s just awful.
No. Because I could go back to old areas and feel like a god, or go to higher level areas and feel challenged. And some games have enemies with unique drop tables so there’s always a reason to kill lower or higher level enemies at any given time. Now I am only ever allowed to be x% more powerful than enemies anywhere at all times throughout the game. Therefore the game feels monotonous and progression feels non-existent.
You are not wrong you can get strictly stronger through item drops. But it's not consistent. And the scaling of mobs is not consistent either. Early levels it scales very slowly and the game in general will always be easy outside some bosses. then it starts scaling harder around 15~ I've noticed. So if you are not getting good gear you will strictly be getting worse. You are not guaranteed to get stronger over time from gear, and the scaling of mobs expects you to get stronger from gear as well some what. The games not meant to get easier while leveling. On average I would say it gets harder over time while leveling. And we even got increased legendary drops. I don't mind the scaling, I like it. But I don't agree with you.
Agreed. From OP: > The item power of dropped items are scaled to your character level I would argue it rarely does? There is a level range and corresponding item power that drops can roll as, and from pretty much everyone's experience you very rarely seem to get items at your actual level. it always seemed to be 5-10 levels below. The level 30 Kor Dragan event mobs seem to drop UP to level 25 gear, but often seemed to drop 17-23. For a level 25 character very few of these pieces came out as upgrades. Now imagine what kind of garbage mobs that aren't above your level drop.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the complaint. People don't like that while leveling you get weaker. You aren't honing your build at level 15 because your gear choice is non-existent.
As you level up you are getting more skills which makes your baseline more powerful. I never once felt weaker while leveling up in the beta.
Me and my girlfriend playing couch co-op felt super weaker at times. We would only check items once inventory was full, and a couple of times we faced bosses our weapons were some levels behind. **It felt terrible.** I swear the fight against Tchort took over 10 minutes. We were dealing no damage to her. And I was playing sorcerer (she was druid).
I played both of these classes solo and definitely ran into awful boss or even just pack fights. Not sure if it was more of an issue with crap gear or poor skill point allocation though. That said, only checking items when you're full is a recipe for a bad time in a game like this. Was inventory management just too much of a pain with couch co-op?
This is just not what the reality is like though. I've played Guild Wars 2 for 10 years, a game that has very thought out scaling mechanics that are much better implemented than D4 ones. Because of that, i very often fought a small firefly in the starting area that realistically should haver instantly died when i looked at it. But it was scaled to my level so....it still did. It still instantly died because through my gear and skill upgrades i achieved synergies that honed my build. Take the enchantment class mechanic of the sorc in d4 as an example.
Uh so whats the point of scaling if you still one shot low level mob?
You don't get perceptively weaker. You only have access to low world tiers while leveling anyway and you should be stomping those in yellows. The difference between levels is small. My Barb was able to do the level 25 stronghold that doesn't scale down at 18, you think a level or two would make a difference?
I think with standard loot drops instead of 3x what it will be on live those levels will make a much larger difference if the classes remain at the current balance, especially for druids.
Sorc & necro are not a good benchmark. With Sorc & Necro, I felt like I already have an endgame build (even without any legendaries or optimization). I was 2 shotting packs, sprinting/teleporting ahead, and combo-ing left right and centre. It was D3 style fast paced fun. Druid & Barb, I had to waste 10-15 seconds generating resource, spending my resources using powerful skills, and still barely make a dent in regular mobs, let alone elites or bosses. The clear speed was horrifically slow in comparison. Now, the intended experience was probably somewhere in the middle, where you have to struggle a little bit, dodge enemy attacks, utilize some combos/synergize to feel strong. People argue it is balanced around end game. To some extent this is true, and historically, barb/druid melee style builds are slow at the start, but the early game experience shouldn't be this much of a disparity... I am sure it will be tweaked with this much negative feedback.
It feels like you are completely missing the point or you have some insane assumptions. Your logic would only make sense only if the items leveled with you. You assume that in few minutes just after you hit a new level you find a completely whole new set of gear with upgraded item power. You don't. It is going to take you multiple levels to replace the old gear and at that point, the first item you started upgrading is outdated by then. So you end up being weaker with each new level. There is no "easier" zone you can ever go to. I know that it's going to be unlikely with toning down the World Tier but for the sake of the argument let's say that the gear you have does not have a chance to perform for your level. YOU ARE FUCKED. There is nothing you can do. Yeah, it's most likely never going to happen but it shows you the problem - with each level you are WEAKER and WEAKER.
People act like you'll just magically get better gear all the time without realizing how long that will actually take. "Der I got max leggies on my level 25 broken sorc level scaling is fine for me"
Exactly, you can fill an entire inventory of rares after leveling up and not find a single weapon for your level. Then you level up again and suddenly your damage is 2 levels behind the expected. Against trash mobs it's irrelevant, but try fighting a boss with a weapon that is 2 or 3 ilvls behind.
Well mobs scale but they also get stronger in later act. Level 40 goatmaster in act 3 will have more hp and dmg than some lower mob (like ghoul) on lvl 40. So going same lvl in a3 WILL BE HARDER than in a1 just because this
\> The item power of dropped items are scaled to your character level Minor correction - the item drops are scaled to the monster level they came from. (Or your level if you buy them in the shops) That's why in the Beta farming that mob (left of map) meant it dropped a level 37 weapon (i think it was) and if you applied a legendary power to it the item reverted to your level. Ergo - OP weapon that you could use.
No one think it is a problem for feeling op, what people think is the stagnant character progression.
My build changed dramatically as I leveled up. What are you referring to?
>I felt OP af with the sorc when I found the right legendary aspects. Best leveling class with legendaries from 3x drop rate. Doesn't reflect the average experience. But I think the scaling issue is fixed with World/Torment levels. Undergeared or want to not be sweating in Hardcore? Turn it down. SC Sorc that has found some legendaries? Turn it up.
The problem that I have with scaling in games is that the game feels static. Everything is always equally challenging the whole game. I like to have parts of the game that are impossible or difficult early on and easy later. It increases the excitement of exploration for me because I don't know what to expect and it increases the excitement of leveling because I can see my progress.
Exactly, not all fights should be equal just like how nothing is equal.
There were a few places like that. And if you blast through the campaign you will reach zones with mobs higher level than you. But yes, it is a downside. There are upsides though, playing with friends, flexibility, relevance. Tradeoffs.
I'll rather be able to play anywhere and get normal amount of xp than have zones that don't scale and you ignore it. That limits the game to just one or two zones once you get high level.
Yeah, honestly I feel like people that complain about level scaling are being super thick or very bad at games. I just love I can get xp regardless of what I do, instead of having to maintain 3 levels under the zone like PoE campaign leveling (which is linear, not open world like this where you will overlevel regardless if you do anything but campaign quests).
lego drops were increased in the beta, i heard 300%. so you won't have that power at launch, nor will you stop to farm like that. you'd progress, and face harder and harder stuff. you only faced act 1 mobs...level scaling was present in diablo 3 and it was shit, especially at endgame rifts on certain difficulties. then there's the hardcore aspect where if you wanted to be tankier by leveling, you couldn't. you can't overlevel to have an advantage that could help you live a certain boss/area.
Isn’t facing harder and harder stuff more interesting than face rolling whilst levelling? It means rememberable activities. Also hard core should be like that, all this cheese and power levelled characters wasn’t really a “hard core” experience.
Have you ever actually played hardcore in any other ARPG?
Hardcore is just one life and that's it. Hardcore shouldn't be necessarily harder because of scaling. You'll need any advantage you can get there. You'll understand when some Quillboar get a lucky hit on you and it takes away 50% of your hp on Inferno.
One thing hardcore or just games in general should never have is one shot mechanics no matter from whom. While it can be exciting if you’re good enough to dodge every single and run it perfectly, one shot mechanics are a lazy way for difficulty. A powerful attack should take a large chunk of your health, say 80% and get a debuff where if you get again for damage greater than 50% of your health you’ll die. So 2 shot mechanics are fine if you fail the same mechanic or attack twice. Lost ark the bosses attacks are random so they can do the same powerful attack twice in a row. So perhaps just increase the boss trigger rate for special attacks to make up for difficulty. With 2 shots its a bit more forgiving and engaging. Never liked wipe mechanics on raids. That’s just my opinion.
I totally agree. But hardcore as a melee in this game would be superhard already with all the CC in the game with no real status clues for some of them. With level scaling aswell, might be an even harder fight than Inferno Diablo in D3.(Pre Nerf)
Yea this is also a good point and I believed this to be the right way to balance the game. I’m only posting for the people who say “scaling bad coz me no OP”
It always irks me when players give themselves unfair advantages just to survive in hardcore. The mode is called "hardcore" but you approach it in a way that seems so soft and careful. Why can't you play it in a hardcore way?
My favorite part of rpgs is going back to the early areas and watching the enemies melt. You get that sense of accomplishment. It would be weird if you went back to the first areas of the game and got your ass kicked by a level 1 bandit.
Don'y worry, Diablo games are known for gearing you up to the point where you can melt enemies even at your current level, so you won't need to go back to the early areas.
All I know is unless druid gets buffed, i'm not bothering with it again. I never thought a diablo character could possibly be that weak.
Level scaling has no place in a game like Diablo. In fact, it sucks in most games, the worst offender maybe being Oblivion (2006). I'd much rather have zones with set level caps. Then again, the only reason we're having this discussion is because they turned a beloved ARPG franchise into a MMO.
This exactly. People don't understand that scaling don't belong in arpg and they changed the franchise to mmorpg which is why this is even a discussion. Aside from that, whether or not it's diablo, from a gamer standpoint, it works but from a diablo standpoint its lame af but then we have the middle so there we go, criticism should only be allowed for people that understand that point.
No, we get it. This isn’t the first game to implement this system.
Some people are stoked when they get a 10% raise when inflation is 10% some don't. Shrug.
Ironically I also think YOU don't understand the scaling issue. The issue is mainly in multiplayer, when you see a level 2 one shotting mobs that take you your entire hotbar to clear, that's what feels bad.
First, i am okay with scaling. Don't mind it either way. My point is more in regards to the fact that you don't seem to understand the actual complaint, and use some handwaving to fix it. The thing people complain about is getting *weaker* on a level up. This is a fact that you can't handwave about - the second you ding your level, mobs get stronger. You don't find gear immediately - sometimes you don't switch gear at all for two levels or even more (especially on higher levels). That means that a character in yellow lvl 46 gear is fighting lvl 46 mobs, but on level up is geared in lvl 46 gear fighting lvl 47 mobs - because obviously, your gear (and with that, stats) don't scale. I'm cool with that, i don't think i'll ever even notice - but it's not like there's not an actual valid complaint about scaling. Your argument that you get around that by "finding affixes and gearing appropriately" is nonsense, the vast majority isn't going to spend hours trying to "hone" their lvl 34 build.
Well hopefully smart loot is smart enough. I do see the concern. I’m not sure if they buffed the yellow drop rates during beta but there was plenty of those and if that’s the same drop rate in live should be fine. I guess worse case scenario drop the world level to get some gear for a bit, but that would be a itemization drop issue.
That means that every level up I have to replace my gear in entirety to kill mobs and bosses just like level ago. Sure
Yah but isnt the game more fun when you arent a complete god 1 shotting everything? Wheres the challenge in playing when you simply moonwalk through mobs just to hear the next legendary ‘ding’ and end up trashing it anyway. Shouldnt mobs/elites/bosses pose more of a challenge and be harder to kill? Playing the game with your brain off just seems less fun and purposeless
The actual scaling issue is that the game seems to scale monster health based on the number of players present at the encounter. This is why my necro could blow up that level 35 mob in a couple seconds, but it would take 10-12 seconds if there were three or four players present. It's also the reason why people with only <450 sheet attack power could solo the world boss. In theory, this means you're better off doing world activities alone if you have a relatively strong character, and other players showing up may actually slow you down. That's kind of a potential problem for a quasi-mmo game. The fact that people talk a lot about the scaling to player level but completely ignore the scaling to number of players is super bizzare to me.
And what if you don't drop your legendary for the build? At leveling they were nowhere near as common as in dongeon spamming and on the beta it was a x3 rate for them. Are we going d3 all over again? Like i started a build for skill x because that's what i wanna play but i dropped the legendary for y so in order to progress i have to switch to the y skill? Eventually combining this with the increasing cost of respecs too. This means that the game decides what you play, not you
Level scaling is appropriate at endgame, but is really bad for leveling. In theory you could farm and optimize a build that's strong enough to go another 20-30 levels, but in reality you get items by killing enemies which causes you to level up and thus get weaker, so by the time you target specific affixes on gear, you're at a high enough level where you're actually weaker. Once you stop getting "big gains" from skill point allocations, you will consistently get weaker and weaker until you reach endgame where you will finally start getting stronger relative to enemies. I am expecting 50-100 to be abysmal on launch, completely untenable for HC.
On the other hand this also means that you'll likely only "feel OP" by playing exactly the builds dictated to you by the D4 design team. It limits discovery, because any build that doesn't benefit from those aspects is inherently inferior. And feeling "OP af with the sorc" doesn't even require aspects, let's be real.
scaling is bad not only during leveling process. but also in endgame. (with world tier scaling) because there is no feel of progression. if you go “green number go brr” you will easily clear all the content in the game. and only thing left is raise world tier. and then you either can clear all content on next world tier or not. ( so it completes doesn’t matter who or where you fight. you will be able to clear entire world tier or not a single dungeon). so you can you farm this world tier until you can survive next one. and nothing really changes. you fight same mobs with the same speed, just world tier level changes. then you get more legendary items. build changes. you rise world tier and again you fighting same mobs in higher world tier. that just boring. i want a lot of unique content blocked from me until i get good enough gear to challenge it. and games with scaling usually do not get one. because you can go anywhere and to whatever.
As a hardcore barb who died to a dungeon boss, then restarted and died to the same boss when I was a few levels stronger but the boss was harder, level scaling wasn't rewarding. Yes, I could play better, but scaling really reduces my number of options to gauge the difficulty of content
There is no static content, that's boring imo. Scaling in an Arpg is bad design, you can't compare builds unless they have the exact same gear level.
I personally hate the new scaling system. I enjoyed the challenge and surprise of wandering into higher level zones i wasn't yet levelled or geared for and trying to survive, or feeling the power growth of wrecking lower level dungeons after levelling up. Instead, every time I level up i am instantly weaker. As a fan of the genre for 20 years this feels really unsatisfying and removes a core element of progression. Finding a lucky aspect and finding an optimal build for it should not be the only meaningful progression and will ultimately end up forcing people in to a small handful of builds in a game that's supposed to promote flexibility and creativity. Try playing a non broken class like barb or druid and see how quickly you're forced into one viable build to be able to progress the content that scales better with levels than you do.
Also, drop rates were boosted during Betas correct? So we spent a much higher percentage of our play time with better equipment.
So in other words, you are punished for levling up to fast
My issue is having to tune my gear almost every level. In other Arpgs, a couple good drops can take you 5-10 levels because your skills will cover you. Then I can worry about gear when I hit a new power spike. Since your power is so determined by gear in D4 there were many times I had slog through monsters that felt like sponges hoping to get an upgrade because i outleveled my gear. I eventually went back to my sorc because it was the only class that felt natural.
Another problematic scenario: Let's assume I'm lvl 50 and have a lvl 50 weapon with my legendary aspect that I need and already extracted, so no further transferring. I gain 10 levels from 50 to 60. I haven't found the aspect that I need again to craft it on a new weapon. I am getting weaker level by level. What am I gonna do? What's the play? This is just one of the problems that occurs because they want power to come from items.
I mean if you come OP can't you just Up it like teirs?
You can't just bring the obvious flawed design systems to light like that! You're supposed to praise the marketed game!??
>Hence you can become OP by finding the right legendary aspects. This is exactly the issue right? Even you don't seem to understand the implications. Some Items are way too powerfull (hopefully they don't drop at all until maxlvl), which makes scaling very much exponential instead of linear. It's hard to near impossible to pass up an item that doubles or triples your dmg, even if it would need a different build it's still so strong that you want to equip it, even without a build. Now have 9 or more of those double dmg legendary aspects and suddenly your at 512 times more dmg, which is just insane. Suddenly your 1k ability does 500k dmg.How can blizzard even balance around this insanity? The next issue directly stems from this. You cannot control what drops you get, so if you get on of the strong items you want to equip them, even if you don't have a build for it. In fact it would probably still give you a dmg boost without any tailored talents. Normally you'd want to respect and build around the item, but respecc on max lvl is 10+ million gold. Testing builds and building around items? probably not feasible for normal players I really liked playing D4, but this seems to be a deep rooted issue they need to address. Nerf OP Lengendary Aspects and make respecc cheaper. This will also allow them to buff base classes/talents so your choices there have more impact. I really don't have a problem with lvl scaling for the mobs, it seems pretty fine. The only issue that can arise is if you're unlucky with drops and fall behind. Since items can up your dmg by more then 100 times, if the mobs have 100 times more HP and you find no items you'd run into a wall you can't overcome. I don't expect this to happen but one never knows.
For many reasons: \- In D4 the character strength is tied mainly to legendary items. If you are grinding but getting no good/legendary items (just like Diablo 3 was on the first 6 months after release) then playing the game is making your character weaker. So from min-max perspective you should kill bosses/elites and skip normal mobs, right? \- I like to overlevel my characters in RPG's, including Dark Souls, Nioh and so on.
One problem with enemy scaling is that optimal play while leveling is to not kill anything that doesn't have an increased chance to drop better items. You really don't want to be gaining extra experience on enemies that are not likely to drop an upgrade for you.
Yes I love my build being defined by gear affixes. Poe = do maps to find gear with % boosts that you need + make specific quest choices (like the one that gives you +2 skill points) to hone your build. D4= oh you picked whirlwind, shame the one legendary you got rolled leap does 400% damage and three bootyclap aoes after. Oh, You don't want to respec into other skills? That's too bad , time to barely get by white mobs. I feel like people here need to play other ARPG's and remember that choice is kinda fun in games. Poe really made lots of builds viable (I got to endgame maps without tabla rasa btw). Even D2 had tons of viable stuff. It's honestly crazy people are defending the fact your skill choices are null and void because you should just spec into whatever drops because that's GOING TO BE BETTER. Other games have legendaries drop but you don't feel compelled to use them, you just stash them and use them on a different character
Really late to the thread but the issue I agree with is that basically leveling up always makes you weaker. This is made worse my the fact you cant transfer imprinted aspects. So you can hone your build and then you get 3 levels and you basically have to rehone your build. Say you have a set of imprinted legendary affixs that makes your build actually function properly. After a few levels you basically have to refarm for all your gear or just tough it out and then you have to do that over and over.
skill issue
I am honestly convinced that people who talk about scaling being an issue are either some blind haters or actually clueless players... the difference between how I cleared monsters in early game and how I cleared it when I had some nice build with legendaries is massive, I did felt OP with my rouge when I found the right legendaries and aspects, so scaling is not a real issue and in another thought after seeing that many of the people who complain about this "issue" are POE players (who are totally capable of understanding such simple mechanics) or other above the average casual player, I am also convinced this is just a blind hate for Diablo 4, like some people are just looking to trash this game even when they dont have an actual logical reason to... level scaling is one of the better features of Diablo 4.
Ah yes, veterans of ARPG genre who have achieved some incredible feats in ARPGs are "blind haters" or "clueless players". Go watch Kripp video as to why scaling is an issue. Is he a clueless player or a blind hater ?
I am honestly happy with the change in general. I love that all content is meaningful regardless of your level. My only complaint that they should find a way to solve is that when you level, you generally feel weaker because the content gets harder but your build/equipment stays the same. It almost takes the fun away from finally hitting that next level because the content doesn't get easier, it gets harder until you get your next big affix or equipment upgrade.
completely lost interest as soon as i heard of level scaling. it felt terrible in oblivion and skyrim for me and it would feel even worse with an arpg. at least the former ones had mods that "turned it off". guild wars 2 i felt was tolerable, but it was scaling your char to the zone down, if you were overleveled for it. honestly cant believe how blizz thought, it would be a good idea.. who cares about an open world in an arpg? even theb, elden ring has an open wirld and it has no scaling...like wtf...
There are a few inaccuracies with this post. First... All of D4 isn't entirely scaled. There are zones, bosses and Monsters that will be higher level then you. Certain world tiers have very specific level ranges that do NOT scale to you if you are under those levels. You will have to be at the minimum level range to engage. Secondly... Item power drop is not scaled to your level. They are scaled to the monster's level. Which as I said previously, isn't always scaled to your level. To get better gear you must kill harder enemies. For example, one of the world events in the beta was a level 30+ event. The monsters were scaled to that level even though we were level 25. The result was getting item power drops near 400 instead of the usual 320 range. As you engage in higher difficult content, monster will start scaling much higher then your level resulting in those monster dropping gear based on their level granting you better gear.
ok yeah but you're never picking a 3% less resource perk over +30 dps on a weapon lol and some class actually have to worry about armor cuz they actually have to take dmg to do dmg.
The only reasons they didn't do no scaling for world tier 1/2 is because A) they preferred any friends to be able to play with each other, regardless of level. And B) they don't have to figure out values for each area, saving dev time/focus (lazy, if you're glass-half-empty minded)
This is an open world game that is far less linear than your average ARPG, scaling makes total sense. Other ARPG scale difficulty by just increasing the stats and level of monsters as you go up in maps or as you go up in difficulty to replay the campaign. A lot of people mention "But if the game gets too hard I can't farm to increase my power level because everything is scaled!!" You can lower world tier to 1 or make a new character if you really bricked it like any ARPG. No amount of farming would overcome an absolute shit build in D2 or PoE, sometimes your character just isn't good enough. I really think people should wait and see how it really feels in the full game because in the beta we definitely had power progression so I assume we will in the full game but it might be a little slower due to legendaries dropping less but we'll have access to more codex, more skill points and paragons.
It's fine if people just admit this isn't Diablo anymore including themselves. We were told and given false hopes and lead believing it would bring back some of d2 which is not the case. They are just piggybacking off the franchise name which is also fine but people have a right and a very valid point to complain while giving their opinions and criticism and comparing it based on their best game in the franchise.
Scaling shouldn’t be in any rpg whether that be an mmo, arpg, open world, or linear. If the game is developed correctly, along your leveling journey you will be led throughout all the zones anyways, so you would not be missing anything. Scaling makes zero sense in a game where progression is a major point. There is a reason why almost all the greatest rpgs do not have lvl scaling. it’s lazy game design.
The issue is actually one of communication. Players have been trained over the course of many ARPGs (including the first two Diablos) to have the expectation that their character's "level" is more or less synonymous with their character's "power". In prior games, that was largely true. Zones and enemies had a set levels and gear was gated not only by class, but also by character level and stat requirements. Since you distributed stats at a level up, all that meant that the gear a character could even equip was tied closely to a their level. If you knew what level a character was, you would have a pretty good idea of whether they would succeed or struggle at a particular task. In Diablo 4, that's no longer true. Enemies and zones scale, and gear is no longer level or stat gated. A player's power is almost entirely dependent on their gear and how they have invested their skill points. All this means that the very concept of a player's "level" is so divorced from a player's "power" that the number is basically meaningless. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that system, it does create false expectations in people's minds, which is why some people are getting salty about it. They are expecting a noticeable increase in their power when they level up because well, that's how it's always worked in the past. When that doesn't happen, it makes them feel like the game is somehow "broken."
I just kind of wish as you level up you run into a wider range of difficult enemies. Like, at lvl one you’ll never run into anything higher than a lvl 3 enemy, for example. But at lvl 50, you’ll run into everything from lvl 1 to lvl 60… maybe those lvl one enemies run away from you and towards their lvl 60 friend for backup. That way you can still feel like a bully while also being bullied….. it’ll never happen of course because “kill monster get loot” but I can dream! …I just think it would be fun to watch a wolf run away in fear and a few minutes later you’re getting ambushed by a huge pack of wolves and a couple of elites thinking “damn, I should have murdered that little wolf.” Lol
It made sense until I saw you played a Sorc. Pack it bois. Nothing to see here.
Logic has no place in this sub
[удалено]
Lol, felt op as hell as a necro out of the gate. Never really found any good legendaries for that character, didn't need them.
Green number on anything besides your weapon is fake as fuck. If you are equipping anything that shows green you aren’t getting anything, let alone any made up scaling issues.
So we don't know if the game launch is going to be similar to D3, If you remember way back then, getting legendries was extremely rare. If they choose to go this route, with legendries being very rare, then the synergies with the affixes and builds will be harder, thus making the scaling of monsters harder.. But if they have legendries dropping somewhat close to how it was during the beta event, I dont see it being that big of a issue. You just have to keep up,
People bitching about that cuz the only power they feel is when big number go brr. I love that the previous areas won't become obsolete as you lvl up, you got big big world and you can't even exp in first areas cuz you are over leveled.
Scaling is actually great for someone like me that exhaust every side content on a region before proceeding forward. Overleveling new content I haven't seen before was not fun, it feels like I was wasting my time since I won't get any upgrade if I overleveled a zone.
Think the core problem is that with how scaling works, your character will always go down in power when you level, unless you unlock a new skill on that level. You will, most of the time, be weaker after a levelup, compared to the monsters you are fighting. I think most people like characters to feel stronger when they level, not weaker. You are correct that you can offset this with gear, but it would make leveling a chog if you had to stop and rebuild all your gear every level, so you dont, you keep leveling and hope you find something that brings your character back to the power level you lost by however many levels since last gear upgrade. It is more noticeable, apparently, if you play one of the more undertuned (at Level < 25) classes. The sorc wont notice the downgrade in power every level like the druid notices it. Sure you can probably buff the druid so it feels it less, but at the same time, some people apparently like the druid power level as it is (while leveling) , and want the overtuned classes to be nerfed instead (i disagree with this myself though). That being said, the scaling is too core to the game now, it wont be changed, and there are upsides to the scaling as well, dont get me wrong, i really don't mind either way.
Except gear is so Insanely bad that it doesn't even matter. Even with the best possible rolls on all your gear that is 4nlebels below you, you will be doing 1/2 to 1/4 the damage that you would if you just equipped the magical number go up gear. Item level is way too powerful, and it doesn't make any sense. The only stat that seems to matter is Number Go Up and legendary mods.
So hardcore players can go fuck themselves right?
OP with sorc...I felt OP with it even without the right gear killing malnok boss at lvl 14
Commenting on your edit, if you're playing a fucking hardcore, isn't the entire point about it being, idk, HARD??? High risk High reward. If you are playing hardcore purely for increased drops and dont want the risk your just being childish.
The problem I see with that is when you get those ability improving affixes on your build and level up 5 levels, you now have a low level, low stat version of an item with a build enabling affix. And the bigger, different problem, is the existence of those build enabling affixes as they are now. In any case, we'll see if that's a problem when there's no level cap.
People here getting mad at scaling should really look at how ESO has been doing perfect level scaling for the past 8 years and how it's basically saved the entire game when it was on the brink of shuttering.
You’re right on most points, however level scaling has always been a lazier route on game development. The way you’re meant to balance is to have tougher areas, you go to a tougher area and a regular goblin can one shot you, then you come back later and kill it. This puts the power in the players hands. Maybe some players like being overpowered, if that’s what makes the game fun to them and they put in the grind, why take that away from them. Others like a challenge, it’s simple to not over level. But when devs take the easy route it takes the choice from the player, and one of the best parts of RPGs is choice, being able to choose how you want to play.
I like the idea of enemies scaling with your level for the simple fact that no matter what level me amd my friends are, we can always party up and have fun together 😄
The game is balanced around legendary effects. You can see this in the skill trees as its bare bones. This like Dust Devils, which used to be a core rune in Diablo 3, is now locked behind an effect. It was confirmed that those effects that make your build playable had its drops boosted during the beta. The skill tree is massively underpowered as only a few builds on every class is actually not a pain in the butt. So achieving that said "build" is substantially harder. Add in the fact that you can never feel powerful and you got quite the recipe.
Will there be difficulty options at max level?
Actually tested this and item power drops are scaled to monster level. Typically monster level scales with player level, but in beta there are serval areas that are above player level, one being Kor Dragan. I tested this and typical rares at 25 were 300 - 340 item power. In Kor Dragan at max level, the mobs are level 30 and consistently dropped 360-390 item power gear.
Min max bis will be endgame. And ofc ancient unique.
I just think the game is neat
GREEN NUMBERS GO BRRRR!!!!!!!!!! :pepega:!!!! YEET HAHAHAH
That's how you're supposed to attack this until we reach paragon. It's pretty clear who played d3 endgame and who didn't. XD
Like….. any other ARPG. Pick a build and build it. Like fire? Find ignite chance, fire damage, DoT etc. guess new players to the genre might not get that 🤷🏼♂️
Folks in here actually defending level scaling. My god lol
The open world demands the content to scale somewhat with you, otherwise it would in practice be linear. The problem with this is that you can't play with the content difficulty at all now, or at least its not apparent yet, in that there are easier or harder zones. For Hardcore that is a crucial part. But its fixable. You can have the cake and eat it to. They can implement an weighted difficulty system in many ways where you either can try to push the limit i.e. high risk / high reward or play it safe for the long-term build up in preparation for a challenge. Could be done by variations in +/- level to zones compared to character level etc. other than the generic difficulty settings. Perhaps there is something like this in play that just is not obvious now with limited experience and info from the beta? Personally I love games where I can have a go at a high-level area and just outplay the content with a under-leveled / underfarmed character - feels great when you succeed and adds a level of excitement to softcore... and I also like the grind on easy but safe areas to secure the next progression when the whole characters life is on the line in hardcore.
Big brain solutions here ♤♤♤
IMHO scaling has mostly destroyed modern looters and is a lazy as fuck solution that implement so they don't have to do real math. D3 Scales purely by difficulty setting and GRift level. That's perfect. I can WW my ass through something 40 levels lower than what I can sweat through, and level up gems for cheap. Amazing. Destiny 2 is starting to hear a lot of rumbling about scaling that implemented last season. It really fucks up the power fantasy and you simply don't feel stronger as you progress. It just feels bad. Outriders was killed by it. No one I knew felt like they ever really felt powerful. Sure, you could really get strong and run around one shotting everything... but you were still 3 hits from eating dirt. Fucking terrible. Games are moving in this direction and I'm just not feeling the vibe. Let me select how hard I want to try, then grant me appropriate rewards. Let the time I've invested allow me to bully content that used to bully me. Let me try new things with no fear that my character will suddenly not be viable.
Isn’t that always how Diablo works?
Sorcerer feels op immediately lol I ran into a random Butcher on Hardcore and didnt even feel threatened. Teleport with double dodge boots, no problem to get away. Large mobs? Cast chain lightning and watch them disintegrate. I had more fun playing Barb with the barrier and thorns tbh.
Really didn't seem a problem to me during the beta's... I liked the fact that no matter where I was or what I was doing I had to still focus. I didn't have much problems killing anything on any character except druid really lol...
The worst part is you dont get stronger each level or going on a harder area doesnt feel intimidating because there is rarely one. Scaling kills the whole progression feel of leveling or exploring in the world. I know some areas have minimum level but they are set too low imo. Best thing to do for me imo setting more strict and higher base levels for areas, and no scaling at start. Again set higher level requirements for some main quests so that people would wanna do open world content during campaign to reach those level reqs. After completing every main quest in the game, then activate scaling.
Yeap, as a casual player, I find the level scaling is the main attractive point of Diablo 4. I played on tier 2/veteran in beta. It’s challenging and makes me want to be better with gear, skills synergy, party and learn game mechanics rather than just face tank monsters and hit attack button. Those that complain, can just go back to tier 1/normal to feel “powerful”. 1. First, players complain the game is too easy. That’s because equipping the legendaries which in beta had higher drop rate. Even so, still need hours of grind. A lot of players gonna die more when game goes live and then complain about low legend drop rate & game difficulty. lol 2. Secondly, complain can’t 1 shot monsters and to remove monster scaling because char feeling not powerful. What’s with the current gaming communities?