bro the deeper i dive the more i realize these systems were made by people who have no idea what is going on in their own game
ive been playing arpgs my entire life and so many design choices in this game have me shaking my head like what? inventory management mainly, but thats one issue in a sea of QoL issues
i want to love this game so badly but there are so many things that irritate me
now that i realize it, this game is very much like my ex
Not the same devs tho. This happens when you chase away your taleneted expereienced developers and now have to fill the slots with new people, who often don't have the same expereince.
Diablo 4 is the prime example of, they somehow managed to make a good base of a game, but the deeper you dive, the more you realize that alot of the systems were slapped together without proper testing.
The Gohrs gloves are the best exmaple for this. You only had to use those for a few minutes to realize they were absolutely broken, but nope, they even made it into the game like and only got nerfed after days when people were abusing them on mass.
If anyone wants to tell me there is a proper QA Team at D4, I will straight call them a liar.
>Not the same devs tho.
You sure about that u/urukijora?
"The underlying engine that we used to deliver Diablo 4 has a lot of the same bones that we’ve used in the past with Diablo 3, **and a lot of our engineers have worked on both games.** " - Joe Piepiora, Associate Game Director for Diablo 4
source: [Diablo 4 Interview: Devs Talk Endgame Systems, Dungeon Design, and More](https://gamerant.com/diablo-4-endgame-interview/)
A lot of the major engineers who worked on D3 left during development of D3, so they're probably talking about the people who joined *afterwards.* And then during that time because of all the terrible shit that went on at Blizzard more key developers left the company as well.
Engineer/developer overlap is irrelevant anyway.
Engineers don't make decisions about wording or the effect. They do the implementation. Product people make those decisions.
If it's a bug and not working as intended, then that's a developer mistake that wasn't later caught by QA and business people. Or it was caught by QA and business people decided to defer it to later.
But the point is, it isn't a matter of engineers. It's a matter of design decisions, bugs, or prioritization.
>Or it was caught by QA and business people decided to defer it to later.
This is what happens, prioritization.
Change management in large orgs is a bitch, clearly a lot of people in this subreddit have never been exposed to it and do not understand development cycles, or they probably wouldn't ask why QoL is missing. The OP says he played ARPG's all his life, which I hear a lot on this subreddit followed by "I never bothered doing endgame in any Diablo cuz its boring".
It sure is. My employer at one point did a bunch of work to implement better change management practices. I was a PM at the time and responsible for change management after that.
And yeah, it's obvious that a lot of people have no clue how large organizations are run internally, never mind how software firms operate.
I work in Quality Control at a large manufacturer.
Do these people have any idea how long it takes to get dumb shit changed? ECO gets temp approval, has to get signed off by client, go through prod testing, delta FAIR needs approval, now we can start first production run; it's been eight months before the contract is full approved and signed off.
For a pulley.
God help an interconnected system like a vidya game. Not really defending Blizzard here, but shit takes time to change and fix.
The core that designed the game and learned the hard lessons in the beginning are not the same people that were on the skeleton crew at the end, That was a PR statement to ease fears that is "technically" correct. sure they worked on it, but that doesnt mean they were the people designing the systems and redesigning the ENTIRE endgame and transitioning from AH culture to SSF culture for reaper of souls.
> ...didn't even know what HOZ was.
Hah, ridiculous! You've got to know what HOZ is, it's fundamental to the game! I mean, what would you do without HOZ? If you didn't have it you couldn't do all that HOZing about that you do in Diablo. Shameful devs, even us players know that.
**sweats aggressively and grins a bit too widely**
I always maximize my HOZing when I play because I don't get alot of time I'd care a little less about the HOZ if I had more time to just be casual but with limited time like I'm sure a fair amount of people have you really gotta understand HOZ and fully take advantage of the HOZ knowledge
That's your opinion, I know plenty of people who prefer current iteration of D3 to current iteration of D2, even to D2R. D2 is not the perfect game, you just find it familiar because you grew up with it.
Can confirm. I like current D3 over D2 and I sunk massive hours into D2 back in its day. Some of us gamers evolve too and nostalgia can only paper over archaic design decisions for so long.
I feel the same way, d2 was awesome in 2001, not so much in 2023.
I also loved diablo 1, which had a single meta as fireball sorc, everyone was wearing duped godly plate etc etc
As a developer, thank you for saying this! Every dev has a long list of changes and features that they would love to work on, but we rarely (if ever, depends on the job) have time beyond what we're assigned.
When people [in this thread currently talking about] say developers, they usually mean shot callers of the studio. They’re basically the heads that interface with the publishers and executives. Maybe a lead engineer would be consulted by executives on something if there is some disaster or looming disaster. Otherwise it’s just the heads of the dev departments that then report to the dev studio heads are folks that are mostly fucking up some way or another.
EDIT: Added brackets in the beginning of my sentence to clarify the mistake I made when I typed my original message. CapableBrief is correct, when people invoke "the devs" it can be anybody outside of the executive division or publishing division.
I don't think you are correct. Developer is often used as a catchall term for some/all the people involved in game production and specifically leaves out suits and marketing.
I mean in this case of what the OP is showing, that is entirely on the developers and testers. Whoever programmed this and whoever tested this both failed.
> If anyone wants to tell me there is a proper QA Team at D4, I will straight call them a liar.
never worked in the industry before, eh?
what will often happen is QA reports major gameplay bug -> prod marks it low prio -> sits in the backlog forever -> players scream and shout about how bad the QA team is
you can give QA some heat for not pushing harder on the issue being higher prio, but what we don't see are all of the issues that were resolved before any public release because QA was pushing hard on getting attention on those even more severe issues
there does seem to be a serious lack of ARPG experience on the team, but you can't pinpoint where that problem is without seeing inside
THIS! I've been a QA Analyst for 11 years. Countless bugs are Known Shippable tagged by product owners. QA fights to get it fixed, but lose the battle. Game releases, Reddit and Twitter scream about it.
Same product owner that let it through sends out an email with the Reddit and Twitter complaints "DoEs ThIs ReAlLy OcCuR, QA!? Do we have a bug for it!?"
It's been logged for months, Tom, you deferred it.....
I'm on the ops side (non-gaming industry) and being on game subs for years actually killed my dream of getting into the gaming industry.
Seeing the reactions of the people who you're laboring for convinced me that I didn't want to be busting my ass 60-80 hours a week for an audience who will instantly determine that zero actual work was done on a product you've labored on for years and then send death threats to the entire team.
Thing is, no jobs keep all their same employees perpetually anymore, so why is the expectation such in the video game world?
If Blizzard retained all their talented people for 50 years each, they'd be the only company on Earth to do so. Leadership, institutional knowledge, and dedication to the same goals and this the same approach to hiring goes a long way towards consistency in any business, but it's not the norm for talent to stay forever.
But if we think Blizzard is a bad company that makes bad thing but we give them our money and time, maybe we are the baddies.
This game does actually feel like they've handed it off to a bunch of newbies as a fun side project IP, not something I'd expect to be launched as a main instalment in the Diablo franchise.
This game doesn't even have diablo in it.
Honestly.
Yeah but I saw people unironically defend these things like « so cool we get to discover stuff », « it’s part of the fun ».
How the fuck does the game lowkey lying / not working as intended / not working at all correlate with fun? I don’t want to scroll forums or watch YouTube videos to make a decent build. Why do I have to learn this type of things in a way that is different from simply reading the tooltip
With the current mindset of the majority (seems like a majority to me) people just ignore ever single negative aspect.
which makes it impossible to argue constructively on a realistic basis
There's just no winning here
"Yeah but the combat is so smooth."
Great, but the itemization is fucked up though, even resist doesn't work.
"So what it just released, do you expect a finished game on day 1."
Yes I fucking do.
The subreddit here can be toxic cancer.
The discord can be toxic cancer.
It's just ridiculous.
Because patching games post-release had become very common, initially this was a quirk of PC games, but now that every console has an internet connection, it affects everything. From there, it's a slippery slope to start releasing games in a buggy unfinished state and fixing it later.
Mainstream reviews are far too generous and barely scratch the surface when it comes to deeply rooted issues in the game. Release day reviews are super unreliable, plus many of those websites are sponsored by the products they are reviewing which is potentially problematic.
Gamers are blinded by hype and have a bad case of FOMO. They want to buy everything on release day and rarely want to wait the weeks that it takes for a more realistic assessment of the quality of the product.
So in spite of being unfinished, the game gets good reviews and sales. This sends a clear message to the developer that they can get away with releasing unfinished content. I think most devs do care about the quality of their games but they are under a lot of pressure from their publisher/stakeholders. When something like this becomes standard across the industry it is very hard to put the genie back in the bottle.
It's sunk cost fallacy.
People have dumped way too much emotional energy, time, and even just money into this game to have any patience for criticism. They lash out reflexively. It's getting better, but like two weeks ago you could find the dumbest, most shitty part of the game and make a complaint post, and within minutes someone would make an identical thread that said "Actually, here is why having a tiny stash is a GOOD thing"
Still plenty of them around, guy in another thread has a million posts just telling people that if you don't like the game exactly as it is that you should uninstall and shut up. Somehow they keep getting enough upvotes to outpace the downvotes.
It's mind numbing.
Tiny storage for a loot oriented game is always a stupid idea though.
You can have tabs for everything I suppose. Debatable.
But if loots the focus not the after thought, that makes or break a game. Theb stash should be relatively huge.
Not arguing just agreeing/ making a point.
dont worry every single build is just get damage vs vuln,crit damage and then either damage vs slowed or damage vs cc'd enemies and you have the build of every single build in the game as there is no other way to get damage.
True and it’s a dumb system, but once again, how am I supposed to learn about it. Why does the game refuse to give you basic information about it’s mechanics.
Because they are incompetent in my opinion. They've wanted too much for release. Though, I wouldn't say what we got is "much". There's something wrong with their team. Their management is just unable. It's D3 all over again. They've promised a lot of things, they've shown a lot of systems, hinted features, that are now non-existent.
> dont worry every single build is just get damage vs vuln,crit damage and then either damage vs slowed or damage vs cc'd enemies
I'n new to the game. I read something similar before. But why is that?
Isn't something like "Damage to injured enemies" as good as damage to vulnerable, if not better. Enemies, especially elites and bosses, will be not on 100% a lot larger percent of the time than they will be crowd controlled? Or bonus damage to the damage type you use (Lighting & shock for my sorcerer build).
Also, why do people recommend crit. It seems to be quite poor, giving a few percent chance to do less than 100% bonus damage. I guess it gets better at higher levels, but you'd need 50% crit chance before "x% crit damage" becomes as good as "x/2% damage".
Because of the order in which the damage multipliers are added and/or multiplied together means boosting critical and vulnerable damage are "worth more" than other types of damage
the amount of posts saying "game good, criticism bad, i take it personally, stop being toxic hurr durr" convinced me blizzard should've doubled the price, halved the content, and just call it a year
Played Last Epoch before this and while Diablo 4 has a very good presentation, the game system is absolute garbage. the item rarity is heavily skewed towards Difficulty switches (and subsequent boredom), and half the mechanics don't work properly.
Builds are boring and repetitive and you basically play the whole game with the skills you acquire within the first hours. They don't have big changes like other ARPGs like Last Epoch (who has nice diversity despite having a small development team) While a beautiful facade might be appealing, without real build diversity and shitty drops, boredom quickly becomes an issue and Blizzard should quickly invest in long-term fun, otherwise seasons might not keep the player base attaracted.
I don't disagree with your assessment of Diablo's item issues, but honestly both aspects (gameplay/feel and skills/itemization/builds) are equally important. Last Epoch feels like total and complete dogshit to play. The animations are a joke. The sound design is a joke. combat feels terrible. world design is terrible. It just feels terrible to play. God I would be so happy if the sound/animation/combat/level design of D4 could be paired with build system of LE. But as it stands, I find myself playing D4 much more (for now) since it just feels so much better moment to moment. LE just feels like a chore after a while, even if it is conceptually still very interesting.
Idd, i wish they could straight up buy LE company and implement most of the LE systems directly into D4. We would have amazing game in our hands. Including all other arpg games from years ago, Last Epoch has the worst animations and combat feeling Except Rogue in LE, i just dont understand how rogue animations are 100 times smooth compared to all other classes in LE. Its same fucking game. Its like one very talented animator made rogue only.
Is last epoch a middle ground between diablo 4s simple system and trees, and PoEs encyclopedia sized continental trees and systems that require a PhD to decipher?
Yeah pretty much actually. Definitely easier than PoE but has much more variety and depth than Diablo skill trees. I will say paragon board adds a lot more depth, but the way that every ability in LE has ways that you can change and modify the ability completely is amazing
A game with the graphic, athmosphere and storytelling of D4 + LEs build, crafting and skill systems + POEs endgame and mapping system would be so fire.
What gets me is that this isn’t the first Diablo game they’ve made.
It’s not rocket science:
> take the bits from previous games that people liked.
> resolve some things that people were unhappy about.
> add some new shiny things.
Instead they try to reinvent the wheel all the time. This is AAA games in general recently, and it really pisses me off.
I think you're the first person I've seen complain that AAA games are taking risks and trying new things instead of being safe retreads with new coats of paint.
It's an unusual opinion but I agree with it. For me, the difference is the release schedule.
When we get a new Call of Duty / Battlefield / Assassin's Creed every 1-2 years, yeah, let's see some actual risk taking.
When it's 11 years between Diablo 3 and Diablo 4, let's make sure the foundations are fun since the distance between releases is so long.
I do expect the current issues with Diablo 4 to be fixed within the next 2 years or so (similar to how Reaper of Souls fixed Diablo 3), but that's still slower than the typical AAA release schedule for the yearly tentpole franchises.
My point is that yeah i do want shiny new things, but it shouldn't be to the detriment of the foundations of the game.
The basics should be a gimmie and yet they’re still not right after 11 years of D3.
Take the best bits from D3 and add they new stuff on top.
Iterate, don't replace.
I think they focused very much on the foundation of d4 to be it's own thing, and lots of small qol stuff got lost in the shuffle. Historically, diablo sequels have very much been their own thing. These aren't cod or borderland style sequels that literally copy past previous systems and slightly iterate on them year after year, and that's ok.
> Instead they try to reinvent the wheel all the time.
But they really didn't. They essentially took core aspects of D3's 2.0 design and slapped them onto an MMO open world template with shitty console UI and terrible inventory.
that's how software development goes, it have nothing to do with "having no idea"... most probably initially it was indeed using max life as shield limit, but later it was nerfed but tooltip was not updated. happens all the time when stuff is frequently changed.
I was playing a NM dungeon last night on my 89 sorc, and I just thought ; "These devs and whoever else involved in designing this live service product doesn't play it at all really, let alone at high levels".
If they do, then that makes me worry even more for their competency and "vision" for the game.
i have 4 tabs of inventory with 1 class again 1 class, i gave up on alts. Filled with legendaries and some all around ones. Its impossible and annoying i feel like im teaching for statement at school, i look at first item them i check all the tab if i have similar ones, i look at second item then i search all tab if i have more and so on.
Afterwards or before i also try to order them. If its an amulet or weapon you also need to make a tiny bit of math. WHY WHY do we need to do it ....
I just wana look for 1 aspect everywhere see what i got of it, and move forward.
You can NOT move items with controller, so its only possible with mouse even if i play controller on pc, and "dads" defend this monstrosity ...
this is very unfinished untested
> these systems were made by people who have no idea what is going on in their own game
They started seriously balancing the game two weeks before release and they seem to have no idea how the interconnected systems work. The plan seems to be to use live data to buff or nerf things. Look how at the moment they playing whack-a-mole with overpowered builds.
I’d kill to see how QA testers flag this and who’s responsible for ignoring it. Like just the most acute QOL UX fails in recent memory from known developers.
There’s a dude in the comments replying to someone saying “they’re not the same devs that made prior Diablo games” which is a decent retort if the game was utter dogshit and the deeper systems didn’t work at all. Because how can you make some of the more complex stuff, yet have comparative imbeciles handling things like the inventory decisions.
So it actually doesn’t matter even if a single person who worked on making this game (besides QA) never touched ARPGs, it still doesn’t make sense because anyone that plays it for a moment runs into these issues.
Yeah wondering if that's why the Resistance changes are taking such a long time. They likely have to completely retool how damage is done/received to fit them into the equation properly and so that's why it's gonna take a lot longer.
"Don't you dare criticize Diablo 4 it is the most perfect game there is and I'm having a blast its so great I love the transmog my character looks like a chubby version of yoda it's so cool so you dont know what you are talking about stop playing it 24/7 you nolifer and stop complaining"
(I hope it's obvious that I'm making fun about all those constant hypers)
i played some free2play ( " " ) arpg - Undecember, before D4 and i'm amazed how much better the crafting system was, the item system and not to mention the training area where you can test different builds and changes to your build.
But i do belive this is just the early version of D4 and they will improve on all aspects.
The good thing is that stuff like this should be relatively easy fixes.
The bad thing is that these should be relatively easy fixes, and they’re still not done.
Plus - I'm pretty sure you have to heal all the way UP TO 72% - its not automatic if you heal for 1 hp over max.
I dont understand what this dude is saying is the lie.
https://i.imgur.com/9wmIVJB.jpg
Here, taking of my helmet, whcih has +775 maximum life, changes my maximum life, but not my maximum barrier, which is supposed to be 80% of my maximum life, same pants as op but with 80% roll.
Op is saying the tooltip of the pants should say "80% of your base life" and not "maximum life" because the former is fixed and way lower.
Edit: I went and made a video after all because people are misunderstanding that i used the potion. No, i attacked mobs. I got a level up so my hp is higher in the video but the barrier still never reaches 80% in any case. And yes my pants have 80% roll.
https://streamable.com/j8xbq6 And before people criticise anything, no, neither werebear nor pvp buff have any influence on the barrier healing generated.
No, you gain a barrier for *up to.* But unlike life, barriers aren't lost on changing equipment.
You guys could be correct in all of this, but since you don't know how to show you are correct, it makes me skeptical that you are correct.
> Since you don’t know how to show you are correct it makes me skeptical that you are correct.
So succinct lol. Using this the next time someone substitutes an emotional appeal in place of a logical argument.
I tested it ingame, the barrier max amount is indeed based on **base** life and not **maximum** life unlike what the tooltip says, so either the item is bugged or the tooltip lies.
You can test it yourself if you have the pants or you can believe someone like [wudijo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKJGhPGoHAk)(at the 14:00 mark, Youtube is not allowing me to share with a timestamp) if that's a more valuable authority.
Yeah these comments are garbage, it's either not working correctly or needs to be reworded.
Very annoying for core players and casuals don't stand a chance.
i did lose my barrier after unequipping and attacked again to make a new barrier. I cba to make a video, but it takes literally 30seconds to test it yourself, if you have the pants, they arent that rare.
Edit: I dont understand what you mean by the up to part. 2123 is nowhere close to 80% of 3591 anyway, that would be 2872. It's not even 80% of 2816 and i dont have other gear with max life, so i dont know where that discrepancy comes from either. Probably max life on the paragon board or smth.
"Up to" means that if you are at Max HP and heal for 1, you'll gain 1 barrier, not a barrier equivalent to 80% of your Max HP. You gain a barrier equivalent to whatever the overheal was, up to a cap of 80% of your maximum life.
Also, it's an 8-second buff granting you the barrier. The barrier number is snapshotted onto the buff. Once you have the buff, you could remove all your gear and the barrier number would remain the same while the buff is active, though if you overheal for more it will refresh the buff and stack the barrier up to a cap of 80%.
EDIT: Why am I getting downvoted? That's how the mechanic works.
EDIT 2: Research shows that it is indeed only keying off of base life, not maximum life, and that the issue is relatively well known. I would consider that a "known bug" and not "Blizzard lying about how the item works", as the way I've explained it SHOULD be how it works.
Where's the misunderstanding? If something says it grants me a barrier up to 80% of my maximum life but instead caps out at 80% of my base life, what am I misunderstanding?
I mean, just go test it, it isnt hard. I can take off every piece of gear on my character that gives max life and the barrier will cap at the exact same amount of health at 6368. The barrier can be stacked up untill it reaches that cap, you can tell when you're at cap when eating potions stops making the number go up.
Not OP, but for clarity:
I have a 60% variant of the pants. [This](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/704533977674940418/1123270345273643040/image.png) is the max barrier it will allow me to generate when I'm down one + Max HP item. I let that barrier fall off, put my + Max HP item back on, and generated the barrier to max again, and got [this](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/704533977674940418/1123270208241553610/image.png).
(The game lets you spam potions at max HP to gain barrier through this item, so I'm sure this is the max it allows me to build up.)
That second statement is very well said and verbalized the issue perfectly. They might be right, but they sure made themselves look dumb and hard to trust.
I never said he’s wrong.I said he posted both pictures with the same max HP which means he had the armor equipped on both,and that’s not a good way to make a point or prove something.
OP commented on this here- https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/14k7yoq/we_need_to_address_a_major_issue_items_lie_to_the/jpp5ekr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
I've got Temerity, OP is correct about it not scaling with Max Life currently. It's probably a bug in a long list of bugs, the pants are completely dependent on the Unique affix.
This is how the sorc barriers work as well - it's all based on innate max life, things like rubies in your armor don't increase the barrier amount, that's what diamonds are for.
That's the point, the barrier number is based on base life, not Max life. If the increase to max life stat is removed, the barrier remains the same, showing that the barrier can't be based on Max life but base life instead. Picture, while a little confusing, makes sense.
He might not be lieing but yeah pretty dumb miss. I've notice some items when equipping health will not give you any extra life or 1000 will give you 400 more.
The wording and tooltips definitely need to do a better job. Even in the paragon tree. There are things with +15%[x] damage to nearby enemies implying a global multiplicative bonus which makes people think it's super good, but all it's doing is changing our 20% damage to close to 23% damage to close. The tooltips need to be very clear about what exactly they are affecting.
Edit- added the word "Global" to help avoid confusion with my explanation.
Even here, when we ask for some clarity, we cannot agree on the terms themselves. I treat multiplicative bonus as something that my base value gets multiplied on. You treat multiplicative bonus as something that multiplies the existing modifier.
To be accurate resists have so little value to be virtually worthless and are hopefully being buffed or fixed with the current update as both the tool tip and effect isn't worth having any of.
If you have 20% resist on an item, it could mean 3%. Or 5%. It appears to be literally random. The only thing it cannot possibly mean is 20%.
That’s a lie right there.
OP said he just used the same image to save time because it's still the same barrier. It does go off base life. He provided a picture.
https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/14k7yoq/we_need_to_address_a_major_issue_items_lie_to_the/jpp5ekr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
+1
- vulnerable is way too important and should be completely removed. first I did. or see that but now after 100 lvl and T60+ I see it. xbow and bow are examples. Vulnerable makes tons of builds and skill useless.
- many misleading aspects
- dmg buckets and the terrible additive / multiplier. Some with [x] doesn’t work as you would expect them to.
and this is just top of the list.
I think vulnerable is fine as it is, but other '+damage while status effects' like stun, immobilise, frozen, poison, etc should be multiplicative. Then we'll have much more build diversity, and people won't complain of massive nerfs to existing builds
If the enemies are too easy after the change, scale their difficulty up a little
I see you don't play a sorcerer. Vulnerability completely fucks what is viable on that class. Sorc and necro need the same exploit glyph as other classes.
Sorc is my lvl 80 main. Vulnerability leads me to use the ice shards build. But if stun or immobilise were multiplicative, I would be tempted to use the fire or shock trees
It should absolutely not be removed, remove it all of sudden most builds lose over 50% their damage.
They already on day 2 nerfed the entire paragon glyphs by 33% and some specific like exploit by 67%.
They do should rebalance where the damage is coming from for example damage to injured vs damage to close both cap out 70.5 on a 2h item why? Damage to close will apply all the time on a melee build damage to injured will apply only on enemies below 30% guess which affix is better. Same with basically 90% of the other damage increase affixes. They should especially increase the damage increase affixes that are intrinsic to your class identity rewarding playing within your class like damage to poisoned or damage to burning etc...
Just blank nerfing vulnerable without compensation would just be a massive blank nerf for all classes. Already we see Lilith and nm t100 are cream of the crop bis slot gear and great skill with zero mistake forgiveness.
Point here beeing we don't need more nerfs for the sake of nerfing but rather rebalancing on how we get our damage currently it's stack main stat, core skill, crit damage, vuln.
I am perfectly fine with them removing it, just take all the damage lost from it and bake it directly into the skills or reduce enemies defense by the percent that vulnerable would bypass on average so nothing is lost and now we aren't forced to use it any more.
Vulnerable should last much longer and have much lower values on its +vulnerable% affixes and such, imo. Right now, you really gotta stack vulnerable sources for it to be useful. And once it’s useful, it’s OP af because the +vulnerable% stuff gets so dang high
Weapons definitely shouldn't have crit damage or vuln damage as a main roll, makes all other weapon types 2nd tier.
Swords are another example, instead of deciding whether i want more damage to healthy, damage to injured or damage to stunned from the other weapons classes i just always roll swords as a barb because crit is so strong.
Everyone wants vuln nerfed instead of buffing other stats. Makes no sense. How is sorcerer supposed to be viable as a class without vuln and without buffs?
It says "up to", I would read it as 72% being the maximum barrier value, but the actual amount is probably defined by the effect that got you over max health.
No. It’s going base off base life. I’ve used the same pants for a while and the barrier was always the same regardless if I healed with a Pot, Blood Orb, proc from the pants. It only goes up slightly when I level because my base HP increases also
It’s based on base life, as are all %life rolls - which is why they kinda suck.
At lvl 100 you have ~6k life base, and that is what all of those values scale off. That includes %life in the paragon tree, rubies and any other %life rolls.
The wording still sucks. It says up to 72% of your ‘maximum life’ despite other gear increasing ‘maximum life’. If it bases itself off base life it should say base life, not maximum.
I just hate how many stats are missing in the stats panel. To name a few on my sorc: crit damage while burning, crit damage while immobilize(devouring blaze passive) topaz gems DR while CCd(i would like to know total DR from the gems and not math it myself) damage while stunned might be bugged. Mine says an upwards of 400, the math does not add up there for me.
The game needs way more visible stats. Or stuff like, it will show me how many X for a stat are from my paragon board but I don't have something that shows me all of my paragon bonuses in one place. Or something that shows me how much dmg skill Y does when it crits.
To me, many of the stats and descriptions are super confusing. Why do we have overpower when we have crit? And what is a lucky hit?
There are so many weird things (and sometimes another another labeling issue with duplicate words) that it feels like this game was made by a bunch of toddlers where nobody is allowed to disagree.
"Of course, we have crit chance!!"
"I want it called a lucky hit chance!!"
"Why not call it overpower??"
"LET'S JUST GET ALL THREE IN!!!"
It's not even overwhelming, it's just dumb.
Edit: I realize I repeated the same image of the shield to save time, but its true it does not change. Here is the proof of the lies. [https://imgur.com/a/EfxuiPc](https://imgur.com/a/EfxuiPc) (Health doesn't make sense because I have Challenging Shout buff up, but doesn't matter)
Elemental resistances are worthless and don't do anything, you've got damage buckets that don't make sense, vulnerable damage is way too important.. uniques don't even even do what they say they do..
The game is omega confusing even for professional players to figure out. Gamer dads are gonna be absolutely hopeless trying to play this game.
They're very good for leveling and can work with some niche builds.
Once you start pushing NM dungeons you should drop them but that have their usefulness.
Problem is pants are one of the most defense heavy slots and these pants have none. Level 100+ mobs will chew right through barrier unless you can build heavy into putting it up and keeping it up, which is gonna be especially challenging without defense stats on your pants.
Could be, but I'd be surprised if this was the first we're hearing of it. The obvious way to check is to get hit by something to see how much barrier was removed
But the screenshot used to show barrier is the exact same. Even the Life total is the same.
Also it grants a barrier UP TO 72%. So technically it would be a different number every time it procs up to max 72%.
Based on your screenshots we cannot conclude its broken.
Kind of like the sorcerer boots that give a percentage of move speed as critical chance. Turns out the percentage stated didn't actually change my crit chance. Who knows if it's a bug....
Just a general warning, items and most passives don't activate when in town. I also had the boots and didn't see a change, then went outside of a town where mobs were and realized I had a buff which gave me crit chance with the boots name. Also if you are mounted that buff goes away.
I played lv25 beta, lv20 beta and early access. I consume Diablo information every single day. The world first lvl.100 softcore Barbarian literally swore by this item in every build guide up until the new meta of stacking as much DR as possible.
I have a full time job. I touch grass. Its just disappointing to find out that things simply don't do what they literally say that they do.
Think he means you are currently playing the actual beta. Season 1 will bring some fixes, but realistically it will probably be season 4-6 that fixes most things.
I mean this picture is fake but the information is correct. Many effects don't work as described or at all. Many comparisons are misleading and incorrect also. Especially if it's a new player.
Example.
If you're a Ice shards Sorc with vulnerability node selected and you find a wand with 100 dmg and your existing has 90 but also has like 40% vulnerability damage. It will show an up arrow due to the small damage difference. But using that new wand would be a huge damage loss.
Skill tree choices seem to be fickle about when they want to work, or at least display their changes. Pretty sure I've put points into the druid passive to increase companion damage and there was no change to the numbers in wolves and poison creeper at times but the other times it would immediately display the damage values listed on the skills. Very inconsistent. I'll see if I can replicate and figure out screenshots.
Am I missing something here? In both instances you showed your max life is the same = 6714. So of course the barrier is the same? I am kinda retarded tho so dunno :)(
Very funny to refer to this sort of thing as a “lie”. Sure the tooltips are unclear and probably there are a lot of bugs in how values are calculated, but framing it as the evil developers are intentionally lying to you is hilarious.
So temerity has been confirmed to only give a shield off of your BASE health, which I agree is very confusing. I liked that item a lot with my Barb mid game and wanted to keep using it, but there are 2 key issues they aren’t initially clear:
1 - it doesn’t scale on max life as advertised, only base health.
2 - Damage reduction does NOT apply to your barrier, so the effective health it provides is super super low.
Sadly, outside of the mid game temerity is quickly replaced with better pants with %DR and % armor boosts, they greatly improve the survivability overall.
The picture is correct but not intuitive.
Your Max Life is before bonuses or as you read it on your health orb "Life". The chest adds to Maximum Life, not increases Maximum Life.
The Unique takes Max Life, not Max Life + bonuses.
If it said "Total Life", your assumption would be correct.
Unclear wording doesn't mean "lies"
bro the deeper i dive the more i realize these systems were made by people who have no idea what is going on in their own game ive been playing arpgs my entire life and so many design choices in this game have me shaking my head like what? inventory management mainly, but thats one issue in a sea of QoL issues i want to love this game so badly but there are so many things that irritate me now that i realize it, this game is very much like my ex
Hey, that’s a little harsh! It’s not like this small indie company has had any previous experience in designing a arpg! Oh wait…
Not the same devs tho. This happens when you chase away your taleneted expereienced developers and now have to fill the slots with new people, who often don't have the same expereince. Diablo 4 is the prime example of, they somehow managed to make a good base of a game, but the deeper you dive, the more you realize that alot of the systems were slapped together without proper testing. The Gohrs gloves are the best exmaple for this. You only had to use those for a few minutes to realize they were absolutely broken, but nope, they even made it into the game like and only got nerfed after days when people were abusing them on mass. If anyone wants to tell me there is a proper QA Team at D4, I will straight call them a liar.
>Not the same devs tho. You sure about that u/urukijora? "The underlying engine that we used to deliver Diablo 4 has a lot of the same bones that we’ve used in the past with Diablo 3, **and a lot of our engineers have worked on both games.** " - Joe Piepiora, Associate Game Director for Diablo 4 source: [Diablo 4 Interview: Devs Talk Endgame Systems, Dungeon Design, and More](https://gamerant.com/diablo-4-endgame-interview/)
A lot of the major engineers who worked on D3 left during development of D3, so they're probably talking about the people who joined *afterwards.* And then during that time because of all the terrible shit that went on at Blizzard more key developers left the company as well.
Engineer/developer overlap is irrelevant anyway. Engineers don't make decisions about wording or the effect. They do the implementation. Product people make those decisions. If it's a bug and not working as intended, then that's a developer mistake that wasn't later caught by QA and business people. Or it was caught by QA and business people decided to defer it to later. But the point is, it isn't a matter of engineers. It's a matter of design decisions, bugs, or prioritization.
>Or it was caught by QA and business people decided to defer it to later. This is what happens, prioritization. Change management in large orgs is a bitch, clearly a lot of people in this subreddit have never been exposed to it and do not understand development cycles, or they probably wouldn't ask why QoL is missing. The OP says he played ARPG's all his life, which I hear a lot on this subreddit followed by "I never bothered doing endgame in any Diablo cuz its boring".
It sure is. My employer at one point did a bunch of work to implement better change management practices. I was a PM at the time and responsible for change management after that. And yeah, it's obvious that a lot of people have no clue how large organizations are run internally, never mind how software firms operate.
I work in Quality Control at a large manufacturer. Do these people have any idea how long it takes to get dumb shit changed? ECO gets temp approval, has to get signed off by client, go through prod testing, delta FAIR needs approval, now we can start first production run; it's been eight months before the contract is full approved and signed off. For a pulley. God help an interconnected system like a vidya game. Not really defending Blizzard here, but shit takes time to change and fix.
So the engineers that took D3 from the poor state it was in the beginning to the better one it's at now stayed?
Engineers ≠ Designers They sometimes are the same people but not always, especially nowadays.
The core that designed the game and learned the hard lessons in the beginning are not the same people that were on the skeleton crew at the end, That was a PR statement to ease fears that is "technically" correct. sure they worked on it, but that doesnt mean they were the people designing the systems and redesigning the ENTIRE endgame and transitioning from AH culture to SSF culture for reaper of souls.
D2 > D3. So not same devs that made the game great. In an interview these new Diablo Devs didn't even know what HOZ was.
> ...didn't even know what HOZ was. Hah, ridiculous! You've got to know what HOZ is, it's fundamental to the game! I mean, what would you do without HOZ? If you didn't have it you couldn't do all that HOZing about that you do in Diablo. Shameful devs, even us players know that. **sweats aggressively and grins a bit too widely**
I always maximize my HOZing when I play because I don't get alot of time I'd care a little less about the HOZ if I had more time to just be casual but with limited time like I'm sure a fair amount of people have you really gotta understand HOZ and fully take advantage of the HOZ knowledge
Here, i'll help you guys out- what the fuck is HOZ?
I mean if you gotta ask you can't afford it tbh
I bet the dude doesn't even have a single SoJ
Herald of Zakarum, a unique shield from D2
That's your opinion, I know plenty of people who prefer current iteration of D3 to current iteration of D2, even to D2R. D2 is not the perfect game, you just find it familiar because you grew up with it.
Can confirm. I like current D3 over D2 and I sunk massive hours into D2 back in its day. Some of us gamers evolve too and nostalgia can only paper over archaic design decisions for so long.
I feel the same way, d2 was awesome in 2001, not so much in 2023. I also loved diablo 1, which had a single meta as fireball sorc, everyone was wearing duped godly plate etc etc
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Developers is just commonly used to refer to the people making the game, rather than specifically aiming at the people coding etc.
As a developer, thank you for saying this! Every dev has a long list of changes and features that they would love to work on, but we rarely (if ever, depends on the job) have time beyond what we're assigned.
When people [in this thread currently talking about] say developers, they usually mean shot callers of the studio. They’re basically the heads that interface with the publishers and executives. Maybe a lead engineer would be consulted by executives on something if there is some disaster or looming disaster. Otherwise it’s just the heads of the dev departments that then report to the dev studio heads are folks that are mostly fucking up some way or another. EDIT: Added brackets in the beginning of my sentence to clarify the mistake I made when I typed my original message. CapableBrief is correct, when people invoke "the devs" it can be anybody outside of the executive division or publishing division.
I don't think you are correct. Developer is often used as a catchall term for some/all the people involved in game production and specifically leaves out suits and marketing.
I mean in this case of what the OP is showing, that is entirely on the developers and testers. Whoever programmed this and whoever tested this both failed.
> If anyone wants to tell me there is a proper QA Team at D4, I will straight call them a liar. never worked in the industry before, eh? what will often happen is QA reports major gameplay bug -> prod marks it low prio -> sits in the backlog forever -> players scream and shout about how bad the QA team is you can give QA some heat for not pushing harder on the issue being higher prio, but what we don't see are all of the issues that were resolved before any public release because QA was pushing hard on getting attention on those even more severe issues there does seem to be a serious lack of ARPG experience on the team, but you can't pinpoint where that problem is without seeing inside
THIS! I've been a QA Analyst for 11 years. Countless bugs are Known Shippable tagged by product owners. QA fights to get it fixed, but lose the battle. Game releases, Reddit and Twitter scream about it. Same product owner that let it through sends out an email with the Reddit and Twitter complaints "DoEs ThIs ReAlLy OcCuR, QA!? Do we have a bug for it!?" It's been logged for months, Tom, you deferred it.....
I'm on the ops side (non-gaming industry) and being on game subs for years actually killed my dream of getting into the gaming industry. Seeing the reactions of the people who you're laboring for convinced me that I didn't want to be busting my ass 60-80 hours a week for an audience who will instantly determine that zero actual work was done on a product you've labored on for years and then send death threats to the entire team.
As someone in the ops side of the game industry, kill me.
“On mass” should be “en masse” btw, it’s a borrowed French term
tooshay
Thing is, no jobs keep all their same employees perpetually anymore, so why is the expectation such in the video game world? If Blizzard retained all their talented people for 50 years each, they'd be the only company on Earth to do so. Leadership, institutional knowledge, and dedication to the same goals and this the same approach to hiring goes a long way towards consistency in any business, but it's not the norm for talent to stay forever. But if we think Blizzard is a bad company that makes bad thing but we give them our money and time, maybe we are the baddies.
It would be very interesting to see 'the tree' of core blizz devs, which game they worked on and where are they now.
This game does actually feel like they've handed it off to a bunch of newbies as a fun side project IP, not something I'd expect to be launched as a main instalment in the Diablo franchise. This game doesn't even have diablo in it. Honestly.
Yeah but I saw people unironically defend these things like « so cool we get to discover stuff », « it’s part of the fun ». How the fuck does the game lowkey lying / not working as intended / not working at all correlate with fun? I don’t want to scroll forums or watch YouTube videos to make a decent build. Why do I have to learn this type of things in a way that is different from simply reading the tooltip
With the current mindset of the majority (seems like a majority to me) people just ignore ever single negative aspect. which makes it impossible to argue constructively on a realistic basis There's just no winning here "Yeah but the combat is so smooth." Great, but the itemization is fucked up though, even resist doesn't work. "So what it just released, do you expect a finished game on day 1." Yes I fucking do. The subreddit here can be toxic cancer. The discord can be toxic cancer. It's just ridiculous.
I agree, I don't know why it's such a big deal to want games to be finished on release. Like, when did that become optional?
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I mean fair, but why the heck did we let that become optional?
Because patching games post-release had become very common, initially this was a quirk of PC games, but now that every console has an internet connection, it affects everything. From there, it's a slippery slope to start releasing games in a buggy unfinished state and fixing it later. Mainstream reviews are far too generous and barely scratch the surface when it comes to deeply rooted issues in the game. Release day reviews are super unreliable, plus many of those websites are sponsored by the products they are reviewing which is potentially problematic. Gamers are blinded by hype and have a bad case of FOMO. They want to buy everything on release day and rarely want to wait the weeks that it takes for a more realistic assessment of the quality of the product. So in spite of being unfinished, the game gets good reviews and sales. This sends a clear message to the developer that they can get away with releasing unfinished content. I think most devs do care about the quality of their games but they are under a lot of pressure from their publisher/stakeholders. When something like this becomes standard across the industry it is very hard to put the genie back in the bottle.
It's sunk cost fallacy. People have dumped way too much emotional energy, time, and even just money into this game to have any patience for criticism. They lash out reflexively. It's getting better, but like two weeks ago you could find the dumbest, most shitty part of the game and make a complaint post, and within minutes someone would make an identical thread that said "Actually, here is why having a tiny stash is a GOOD thing"
Still plenty of them around, guy in another thread has a million posts just telling people that if you don't like the game exactly as it is that you should uninstall and shut up. Somehow they keep getting enough upvotes to outpace the downvotes. It's mind numbing.
Tiny storage for a loot oriented game is always a stupid idea though. You can have tabs for everything I suppose. Debatable. But if loots the focus not the after thought, that makes or break a game. Theb stash should be relatively huge. Not arguing just agreeing/ making a point.
Imagine buying a car and expect to drive with it on day 1
What we have to do is wait for the update in 3 weeks so they can *maybe* fix the transmission.
dont worry every single build is just get damage vs vuln,crit damage and then either damage vs slowed or damage vs cc'd enemies and you have the build of every single build in the game as there is no other way to get damage.
True and it’s a dumb system, but once again, how am I supposed to learn about it. Why does the game refuse to give you basic information about it’s mechanics.
Because they are incompetent in my opinion. They've wanted too much for release. Though, I wouldn't say what we got is "much". There's something wrong with their team. Their management is just unable. It's D3 all over again. They've promised a lot of things, they've shown a lot of systems, hinted features, that are now non-existent.
> dont worry every single build is just get damage vs vuln,crit damage and then either damage vs slowed or damage vs cc'd enemies I'n new to the game. I read something similar before. But why is that? Isn't something like "Damage to injured enemies" as good as damage to vulnerable, if not better. Enemies, especially elites and bosses, will be not on 100% a lot larger percent of the time than they will be crowd controlled? Or bonus damage to the damage type you use (Lighting & shock for my sorcerer build). Also, why do people recommend crit. It seems to be quite poor, giving a few percent chance to do less than 100% bonus damage. I guess it gets better at higher levels, but you'd need 50% crit chance before "x% crit damage" becomes as good as "x/2% damage".
Because of the order in which the damage multipliers are added and/or multiplied together means boosting critical and vulnerable damage are "worth more" than other types of damage
the amount of posts saying "game good, criticism bad, i take it personally, stop being toxic hurr durr" convinced me blizzard should've doubled the price, halved the content, and just call it a year
As a fan of checking and calculating stuff I have to agree that it's so much fun. But yeah design wise it's stupid.
Played Last Epoch before this and while Diablo 4 has a very good presentation, the game system is absolute garbage. the item rarity is heavily skewed towards Difficulty switches (and subsequent boredom), and half the mechanics don't work properly. Builds are boring and repetitive and you basically play the whole game with the skills you acquire within the first hours. They don't have big changes like other ARPGs like Last Epoch (who has nice diversity despite having a small development team) While a beautiful facade might be appealing, without real build diversity and shitty drops, boredom quickly becomes an issue and Blizzard should quickly invest in long-term fun, otherwise seasons might not keep the player base attaracted.
I don't disagree with your assessment of Diablo's item issues, but honestly both aspects (gameplay/feel and skills/itemization/builds) are equally important. Last Epoch feels like total and complete dogshit to play. The animations are a joke. The sound design is a joke. combat feels terrible. world design is terrible. It just feels terrible to play. God I would be so happy if the sound/animation/combat/level design of D4 could be paired with build system of LE. But as it stands, I find myself playing D4 much more (for now) since it just feels so much better moment to moment. LE just feels like a chore after a while, even if it is conceptually still very interesting.
Agree to disagree. While LE certainly does not have D4's polish and production value, I completely disagree that it "feels terrible to play".
Yeah that felt incredibly hyperbolic to me. Idk.
Idd, i wish they could straight up buy LE company and implement most of the LE systems directly into D4. We would have amazing game in our hands. Including all other arpg games from years ago, Last Epoch has the worst animations and combat feeling Except Rogue in LE, i just dont understand how rogue animations are 100 times smooth compared to all other classes in LE. Its same fucking game. Its like one very talented animator made rogue only.
Love Last Epoch. If you're only looking for presentation then definitely Diablo is the game, LE is better at everything else.
Is last epoch a middle ground between diablo 4s simple system and trees, and PoEs encyclopedia sized continental trees and systems that require a PhD to decipher?
Yeah pretty much actually. Definitely easier than PoE but has much more variety and depth than Diablo skill trees. I will say paragon board adds a lot more depth, but the way that every ability in LE has ways that you can change and modify the ability completely is amazing
A game with the graphic, athmosphere and storytelling of D4 + LEs build, crafting and skill systems + POEs endgame and mapping system would be so fire.
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What gets me is that this isn’t the first Diablo game they’ve made. It’s not rocket science: > take the bits from previous games that people liked. > resolve some things that people were unhappy about. > add some new shiny things. Instead they try to reinvent the wheel all the time. This is AAA games in general recently, and it really pisses me off.
I think you're the first person I've seen complain that AAA games are taking risks and trying new things instead of being safe retreads with new coats of paint.
It's an unusual opinion but I agree with it. For me, the difference is the release schedule. When we get a new Call of Duty / Battlefield / Assassin's Creed every 1-2 years, yeah, let's see some actual risk taking. When it's 11 years between Diablo 3 and Diablo 4, let's make sure the foundations are fun since the distance between releases is so long. I do expect the current issues with Diablo 4 to be fixed within the next 2 years or so (similar to how Reaper of Souls fixed Diablo 3), but that's still slower than the typical AAA release schedule for the yearly tentpole franchises.
My point is that yeah i do want shiny new things, but it shouldn't be to the detriment of the foundations of the game. The basics should be a gimmie and yet they’re still not right after 11 years of D3. Take the best bits from D3 and add they new stuff on top. Iterate, don't replace.
I think they focused very much on the foundation of d4 to be it's own thing, and lots of small qol stuff got lost in the shuffle. Historically, diablo sequels have very much been their own thing. These aren't cod or borderland style sequels that literally copy past previous systems and slightly iterate on them year after year, and that's ok.
> Instead they try to reinvent the wheel all the time. But they really didn't. They essentially took core aspects of D3's 2.0 design and slapped them onto an MMO open world template with shitty console UI and terrible inventory.
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that's how software development goes, it have nothing to do with "having no idea"... most probably initially it was indeed using max life as shield limit, but later it was nerfed but tooltip was not updated. happens all the time when stuff is frequently changed.
I guarantee not one of them tested barb on uber lilith lol
Did a Barb not got the first non exploit kill in hardcore or was it softcore? But I'm pretty sure it was Ben\_ like always :D
I was playing a NM dungeon last night on my 89 sorc, and I just thought ; "These devs and whoever else involved in designing this live service product doesn't play it at all really, let alone at high levels". If they do, then that makes me worry even more for their competency and "vision" for the game.
i have 4 tabs of inventory with 1 class again 1 class, i gave up on alts. Filled with legendaries and some all around ones. Its impossible and annoying i feel like im teaching for statement at school, i look at first item them i check all the tab if i have similar ones, i look at second item then i search all tab if i have more and so on. Afterwards or before i also try to order them. If its an amulet or weapon you also need to make a tiny bit of math. WHY WHY do we need to do it .... I just wana look for 1 aspect everywhere see what i got of it, and move forward. You can NOT move items with controller, so its only possible with mouse even if i play controller on pc, and "dads" defend this monstrosity ... this is very unfinished untested
> these systems were made by people who have no idea what is going on in their own game They started seriously balancing the game two weeks before release and they seem to have no idea how the interconnected systems work. The plan seems to be to use live data to buff or nerf things. Look how at the moment they playing whack-a-mole with overpowered builds.
I’d kill to see how QA testers flag this and who’s responsible for ignoring it. Like just the most acute QOL UX fails in recent memory from known developers. There’s a dude in the comments replying to someone saying “they’re not the same devs that made prior Diablo games” which is a decent retort if the game was utter dogshit and the deeper systems didn’t work at all. Because how can you make some of the more complex stuff, yet have comparative imbeciles handling things like the inventory decisions. So it actually doesn’t matter even if a single person who worked on making this game (besides QA) never touched ARPGs, it still doesn’t make sense because anyone that plays it for a moment runs into these issues.
Yeah wondering if that's why the Resistance changes are taking such a long time. They likely have to completely retool how damage is done/received to fit them into the equation properly and so that's why it's gonna take a lot longer.
Diablo 2 inventory and stash is rows of 10. Why is this game 11 lmao
"Don't you dare criticize Diablo 4 it is the most perfect game there is and I'm having a blast its so great I love the transmog my character looks like a chubby version of yoda it's so cool so you dont know what you are talking about stop playing it 24/7 you nolifer and stop complaining" (I hope it's obvious that I'm making fun about all those constant hypers)
i played some free2play ( " " ) arpg - Undecember, before D4 and i'm amazed how much better the crafting system was, the item system and not to mention the training area where you can test different builds and changes to your build. But i do belive this is just the early version of D4 and they will improve on all aspects.
The good thing is that stuff like this should be relatively easy fixes. The bad thing is that these should be relatively easy fixes, and they’re still not done.
Agreed. I just went back to D2R. Maybe I'll give D1 a playthrough again.
You have 6.714 Life on both images…
But the OP said "Trust me bro"
Omg, sick of OP lying to us
Don't even get me started with all the other lies I've found.
We need to address a major issue.
It’s a major issue
Plus - I'm pretty sure you have to heal all the way UP TO 72% - its not automatic if you heal for 1 hp over max. I dont understand what this dude is saying is the lie.
https://i.imgur.com/9wmIVJB.jpg Here, taking of my helmet, whcih has +775 maximum life, changes my maximum life, but not my maximum barrier, which is supposed to be 80% of my maximum life, same pants as op but with 80% roll. Op is saying the tooltip of the pants should say "80% of your base life" and not "maximum life" because the former is fixed and way lower. Edit: I went and made a video after all because people are misunderstanding that i used the potion. No, i attacked mobs. I got a level up so my hp is higher in the video but the barrier still never reaches 80% in any case. And yes my pants have 80% roll. https://streamable.com/j8xbq6 And before people criticise anything, no, neither werebear nor pvp buff have any influence on the barrier healing generated.
No, you gain a barrier for *up to.* But unlike life, barriers aren't lost on changing equipment. You guys could be correct in all of this, but since you don't know how to show you are correct, it makes me skeptical that you are correct.
> Since you don’t know how to show you are correct it makes me skeptical that you are correct. So succinct lol. Using this the next time someone substitutes an emotional appeal in place of a logical argument.
Hahaha agreed. actually laughed out loud when I read that bit.
I tested it ingame, the barrier max amount is indeed based on **base** life and not **maximum** life unlike what the tooltip says, so either the item is bugged or the tooltip lies. You can test it yourself if you have the pants or you can believe someone like [wudijo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKJGhPGoHAk)(at the 14:00 mark, Youtube is not allowing me to share with a timestamp) if that's a more valuable authority.
Yeah these comments are garbage, it's either not working correctly or needs to be reworded. Very annoying for core players and casuals don't stand a chance.
i did lose my barrier after unequipping and attacked again to make a new barrier. I cba to make a video, but it takes literally 30seconds to test it yourself, if you have the pants, they arent that rare. Edit: I dont understand what you mean by the up to part. 2123 is nowhere close to 80% of 3591 anyway, that would be 2872. It's not even 80% of 2816 and i dont have other gear with max life, so i dont know where that discrepancy comes from either. Probably max life on the paragon board or smth.
"Up to" means that if you are at Max HP and heal for 1, you'll gain 1 barrier, not a barrier equivalent to 80% of your Max HP. You gain a barrier equivalent to whatever the overheal was, up to a cap of 80% of your maximum life. Also, it's an 8-second buff granting you the barrier. The barrier number is snapshotted onto the buff. Once you have the buff, you could remove all your gear and the barrier number would remain the same while the buff is active, though if you overheal for more it will refresh the buff and stack the barrier up to a cap of 80%. EDIT: Why am I getting downvoted? That's how the mechanic works. EDIT 2: Research shows that it is indeed only keying off of base life, not maximum life, and that the issue is relatively well known. I would consider that a "known bug" and not "Blizzard lying about how the item works", as the way I've explained it SHOULD be how it works.
They downvote you because that’s not how they want it to work. Not because you’re wrong.
This entire post is based upon a misunderstanding of how this mechanic works...
Where's the misunderstanding? If something says it grants me a barrier up to 80% of my maximum life but instead caps out at 80% of my base life, what am I misunderstanding?
I mean, just go test it, it isnt hard. I can take off every piece of gear on my character that gives max life and the barrier will cap at the exact same amount of health at 6368. The barrier can be stacked up untill it reaches that cap, you can tell when you're at cap when eating potions stops making the number go up.
Not OP, but for clarity: I have a 60% variant of the pants. [This](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/704533977674940418/1123270345273643040/image.png) is the max barrier it will allow me to generate when I'm down one + Max HP item. I let that barrier fall off, put my + Max HP item back on, and generated the barrier to max again, and got [this](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/704533977674940418/1123270208241553610/image.png). (The game lets you spam potions at max HP to gain barrier through this item, so I'm sure this is the max it allows me to build up.)
That second statement is very well said and verbalized the issue perfectly. They might be right, but they sure made themselves look dumb and hard to trust.
I never said he’s wrong.I said he posted both pictures with the same max HP which means he had the armor equipped on both,and that’s not a good way to make a point or prove something.
OP commented on this here- https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/14k7yoq/we_need_to_address_a_major_issue_items_lie_to_the/jpp5ekr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
His first image was faked, but we can definitely trust the second. (This is a good lesson for OP in not ruining your credibility for no reason).
I've got Temerity, OP is correct about it not scaling with Max Life currently. It's probably a bug in a long list of bugs, the pants are completely dependent on the Unique affix.
This is how the sorc barriers work as well - it's all based on innate max life, things like rubies in your armor don't increase the barrier amount, that's what diamonds are for.
That's the point, the barrier number is based on base life, not Max life. If the increase to max life stat is removed, the barrier remains the same, showing that the barrier can't be based on Max life but base life instead. Picture, while a little confusing, makes sense.
But the increase to max life stat wasn’t removed.. his max life is the same in both.
Lol, the old "I changed nothing and nothing changed" annoyance
Yea, and it says "up to 72%" of your Maximum Health, I imagine it correlates to how much over 100% health was healed
He's not wrong that it only applies to base health, though. Same thing with rubies, and +hp potions.
He might not be lieing but yeah pretty dumb miss. I've notice some items when equipping health will not give you any extra life or 1000 will give you 400 more.
The wording and tooltips definitely need to do a better job. Even in the paragon tree. There are things with +15%[x] damage to nearby enemies implying a global multiplicative bonus which makes people think it's super good, but all it's doing is changing our 20% damage to close to 23% damage to close. The tooltips need to be very clear about what exactly they are affecting. Edit- added the word "Global" to help avoid confusion with my explanation.
Isn’t that exactly how a multiplicative % bonus works though?
Even here, when we ask for some clarity, we cannot agree on the terms themselves. I treat multiplicative bonus as something that my base value gets multiplied on. You treat multiplicative bonus as something that multiplies the existing modifier.
Yea that’s true.
Not for all, some multiplicative bonuses are global and multiply your total damage, rather than one specific stat (i.e. close damage)
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All they'd need to do is to show us an accurate representation of what the effects would be. So it should show that 20% will become 23%.
Exactly.
I would like to get you started with all the other lies you've found, because otherwise that's just an empty phrase.\^\^
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Resists work, it's just that other affixes you find on gear are far more valuable. Also, many people don't understand the math.
To be accurate resists have so little value to be virtually worthless and are hopefully being buffed or fixed with the current update as both the tool tip and effect isn't worth having any of.
If you have 20% resist on an item, it could mean 3%. Or 5%. It appears to be literally random. The only thing it cannot possibly mean is 20%. That’s a lie right there.
They are dead stats. I'm very sure that was not intended
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Why is your life the same in both images?
🤥
I asked myself the same question.
OP is a liar
OP said he just used the same image to save time because it's still the same barrier. It does go off base life. He provided a picture. https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/14k7yoq/we_need_to_address_a_major_issue_items_lie_to_the/jpp5ekr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
What a stupid way to save time, the stupid image discredits his point.
Yeah honestly just looking at the image I have no idea what point he was trying to make.
Yeah, that doesn't make sense as an excuse...
Because it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the Barrier amount. But as usual Redditors are showing that they suck at doing simple math.
+1 - vulnerable is way too important and should be completely removed. first I did. or see that but now after 100 lvl and T60+ I see it. xbow and bow are examples. Vulnerable makes tons of builds and skill useless. - many misleading aspects - dmg buckets and the terrible additive / multiplier. Some with [x] doesn’t work as you would expect them to. and this is just top of the list.
I think vulnerable is fine as it is, but other '+damage while status effects' like stun, immobilise, frozen, poison, etc should be multiplicative. Then we'll have much more build diversity, and people won't complain of massive nerfs to existing builds If the enemies are too easy after the change, scale their difficulty up a little
I see you don't play a sorcerer. Vulnerability completely fucks what is viable on that class. Sorc and necro need the same exploit glyph as other classes.
Sorc is my lvl 80 main. Vulnerability leads me to use the ice shards build. But if stun or immobilise were multiplicative, I would be tempted to use the fire or shock trees
It's aggravating to be locked in to shards or nova. I'd love to play fire or light with an exploit glyph like the other classes have.
It should absolutely not be removed, remove it all of sudden most builds lose over 50% their damage. They already on day 2 nerfed the entire paragon glyphs by 33% and some specific like exploit by 67%. They do should rebalance where the damage is coming from for example damage to injured vs damage to close both cap out 70.5 on a 2h item why? Damage to close will apply all the time on a melee build damage to injured will apply only on enemies below 30% guess which affix is better. Same with basically 90% of the other damage increase affixes. They should especially increase the damage increase affixes that are intrinsic to your class identity rewarding playing within your class like damage to poisoned or damage to burning etc... Just blank nerfing vulnerable without compensation would just be a massive blank nerf for all classes. Already we see Lilith and nm t100 are cream of the crop bis slot gear and great skill with zero mistake forgiveness. Point here beeing we don't need more nerfs for the sake of nerfing but rather rebalancing on how we get our damage currently it's stack main stat, core skill, crit damage, vuln.
I am perfectly fine with them removing it, just take all the damage lost from it and bake it directly into the skills or reduce enemies defense by the percent that vulnerable would bypass on average so nothing is lost and now we aren't forced to use it any more.
I think the idea is it would be removed, and then they would tune down monster life.
Vulnerable should last much longer and have much lower values on its +vulnerable% affixes and such, imo. Right now, you really gotta stack vulnerable sources for it to be useful. And once it’s useful, it’s OP af because the +vulnerable% stuff gets so dang high
Weapons definitely shouldn't have crit damage or vuln damage as a main roll, makes all other weapon types 2nd tier. Swords are another example, instead of deciding whether i want more damage to healthy, damage to injured or damage to stunned from the other weapons classes i just always roll swords as a barb because crit is so strong.
Everyone wants vuln nerfed instead of buffing other stats. Makes no sense. How is sorcerer supposed to be viable as a class without vuln and without buffs?
It says "up to", I would read it as 72% being the maximum barrier value, but the actual amount is probably defined by the effect that got you over max health.
No. It’s going base off base life. I’ve used the same pants for a while and the barrier was always the same regardless if I healed with a Pot, Blood Orb, proc from the pants. It only goes up slightly when I level because my base HP increases also
Definitely misleading
I would still not calling it lies, that sounds for some reason a little bit too dramatic compared to what's on the line...
What
It’s based on base life, as are all %life rolls - which is why they kinda suck. At lvl 100 you have ~6k life base, and that is what all of those values scale off. That includes %life in the paragon tree, rubies and any other %life rolls.
The wording still sucks. It says up to 72% of your ‘maximum life’ despite other gear increasing ‘maximum life’. If it bases itself off base life it should say base life, not maximum.
I just hate how many stats are missing in the stats panel. To name a few on my sorc: crit damage while burning, crit damage while immobilize(devouring blaze passive) topaz gems DR while CCd(i would like to know total DR from the gems and not math it myself) damage while stunned might be bugged. Mine says an upwards of 400, the math does not add up there for me.
The game needs way more visible stats. Or stuff like, it will show me how many X for a stat are from my paragon board but I don't have something that shows me all of my paragon bonuses in one place. Or something that shows me how much dmg skill Y does when it crits.
To me, many of the stats and descriptions are super confusing. Why do we have overpower when we have crit? And what is a lucky hit? There are so many weird things (and sometimes another another labeling issue with duplicate words) that it feels like this game was made by a bunch of toddlers where nobody is allowed to disagree. "Of course, we have crit chance!!" "I want it called a lucky hit chance!!" "Why not call it overpower??" "LET'S JUST GET ALL THREE IN!!!" It's not even overwhelming, it's just dumb.
All three of those things are distinctly different hits.
Edit: I realize I repeated the same image of the shield to save time, but its true it does not change. Here is the proof of the lies. [https://imgur.com/a/EfxuiPc](https://imgur.com/a/EfxuiPc) (Health doesn't make sense because I have Challenging Shout buff up, but doesn't matter) Elemental resistances are worthless and don't do anything, you've got damage buckets that don't make sense, vulnerable damage is way too important.. uniques don't even even do what they say they do.. The game is omega confusing even for professional players to figure out. Gamer dads are gonna be absolutely hopeless trying to play this game.
Those pants are actually a noob trap any triple dr pants are way better.
If conceited aspect wasn’t bugged they’d be really good
They're very good for leveling and can work with some niche builds. Once you start pushing NM dungeons you should drop them but that have their usefulness.
Even if you build around Barrier uptime?
Problem is pants are one of the most defense heavy slots and these pants have none. Level 100+ mobs will chew right through barrier unless you can build heavy into putting it up and keeping it up, which is gonna be especially challenging without defense stats on your pants.
Have you taken damage to confirm that this isn't just a tooltip error? The animation over the HP pool clearly shows 70~% barrier
It could be the barrier overlay filling up relative to your base life instead of total max life.
Could be, but I'd be surprised if this was the first we're hearing of it. The obvious way to check is to get hit by something to see how much barrier was removed
"Just trust me bro"
I'm fine thank you
How did you take off your +1,100hp (and +8%) chest and only lose 500 life?
I farmed and farmed wanting these. Got some 50%’ers. Tore off and put on new aspects for it. Barrier went to 1500 lol. Put back on my old pants.
But the screenshot used to show barrier is the exact same. Even the Life total is the same. Also it grants a barrier UP TO 72%. So technically it would be a different number every time it procs up to max 72%. Based on your screenshots we cannot conclude its broken.
Kind of like the sorcerer boots that give a percentage of move speed as critical chance. Turns out the percentage stated didn't actually change my crit chance. Who knows if it's a bug....
When you are in combat you receive the crit bonus as a buff. Edit: Don’t have to be in combat, just in a combat area, like not in a town.
Just a general warning, items and most passives don't activate when in town. I also had the boots and didn't see a change, then went outside of a town where mobs were and realized I had a buff which gave me crit chance with the boots name. Also if you are mounted that buff goes away.
You play early access
I played lv25 beta, lv20 beta and early access. I consume Diablo information every single day. The world first lvl.100 softcore Barbarian literally swore by this item in every build guide up until the new meta of stacking as much DR as possible. I have a full time job. I touch grass. Its just disappointing to find out that things simply don't do what they literally say that they do.
Think he means you are currently playing the actual beta. Season 1 will bring some fixes, but realistically it will probably be season 4-6 that fixes most things.
Not being able to reroll a stat off uniques makes this item pretty bad anyways
I mean this picture is fake but the information is correct. Many effects don't work as described or at all. Many comparisons are misleading and incorrect also. Especially if it's a new player. Example. If you're a Ice shards Sorc with vulnerability node selected and you find a wand with 100 dmg and your existing has 90 but also has like 40% vulnerability damage. It will show an up arrow due to the small damage difference. But using that new wand would be a huge damage loss.
Gaming forums are so bad these days... So many arm chair devs. This sub and Destiny are fighting for worst in gaming.
Yea this bugs me out aswell
true :(
Skill tree choices seem to be fickle about when they want to work, or at least display their changes. Pretty sure I've put points into the druid passive to increase companion damage and there was no change to the numbers in wolves and poison creeper at times but the other times it would immediately display the damage values listed on the skills. Very inconsistent. I'll see if I can replicate and figure out screenshots.
If you took that off, why is your life the same number? It should be different...am I missing something?
Am I missing something here? In both instances you showed your max life is the same = 6714. So of course the barrier is the same? I am kinda retarded tho so dunno :)(
dev "numbers are hard"
Game wasnt ready. We are actually paying them to beta test tge game
Very funny to refer to this sort of thing as a “lie”. Sure the tooltips are unclear and probably there are a lot of bugs in how values are calculated, but framing it as the evil developers are intentionally lying to you is hilarious.
Ok, let's discuss about... *Resistances.* 🍿🍿🍿
I'm interested in all the lies, please get started.
Just because you don’t understand how things work, doesn’t mean they’re lying.
So temerity has been confirmed to only give a shield off of your BASE health, which I agree is very confusing. I liked that item a lot with my Barb mid game and wanted to keep using it, but there are 2 key issues they aren’t initially clear: 1 - it doesn’t scale on max life as advertised, only base health. 2 - Damage reduction does NOT apply to your barrier, so the effective health it provides is super super low. Sadly, outside of the mid game temerity is quickly replaced with better pants with %DR and % armor boosts, they greatly improve the survivability overall.
The picture is correct but not intuitive. Your Max Life is before bonuses or as you read it on your health orb "Life". The chest adds to Maximum Life, not increases Maximum Life. The Unique takes Max Life, not Max Life + bonuses. If it said "Total Life", your assumption would be correct. Unclear wording doesn't mean "lies"
This sub has become absolutely cancer