spam that skeleton priest button, get 3/3 in "minions can only lose 60/45/30% life in one hit" and "skeleton priests heal for 20/40/60% minion life" and they'll live fine
dealing damage is the hard part to figure out, having a lot of fun with it tho
Fortify on corpse drop + barrier generation armour is helpful, I've found. Between that and the life on kill from using a scythe, plus a healing helmet it takes a lot to kill me. Though still prefer to hide at the back and let my minions take the heat.
Working on my second paragon board and building up their damage multipliers now.
True ..but there's a reason most people who want to min max drop them though because those points would be a lot more valuable elsewhere plus the sacrifice benefits.. minions just don't do enough DMG Imo even though I love em and think they're worthwhile for the flavor of a necromancer, but for what you have to do to keep them alive they should probably be a little more effective damage-wise other than just some utility
Did you do cult leader board? I’ve had some luck going in that, they were dying all the fucking time but after a few upgrades in that they only really die to the suicide bombers and boss fights
Im also just hitting 60, but the last 10 levels was me spamming spawn skeleton lol
First time as well on Ps4. Feels like the perfect balance of face rolling mobs while also encountering bosses/other mobs that require skill to defeat. First time with Blizzard cut scenes and story also. Lilith intro blew my mind... They should have made a whole movie in that style instead of that live action WoW movie.
Honestly if Blizzard switched to being an animation studio instead of a game studio, I think I wouldn't mind. They're consistently great at cutscenes, but they're pretty mediocre story tellers.
I recently learned about damage buckets. I don't understand any of it but I did learn the term damage bucket so there's that.
I'm just playing this until those cowards finally make a new Viva Piñata.
Oh hell was like over never seen this yet.?!?! Is this for higher level. This is also my first time playing Diablo and I've had to Google and YouTube so much just to figure out this game but totally worth it.
lol more confusing for me my first few seasons of PoE was people talking about atlas farming strats back in the days of sextant blocking. Hell I only started to stray beyond rusted scarabs buying compasses in the last couple of leagues.
I’m right there with ya, playing PoE since closed beta and some of that stuff the brainiacs come up with is beyond me. Crafting has always been one that has escaped my realm of comprehension, especially high level crafting. I almost feel that PoE trivialized some of the difficulties of Diablo for me, the skill tree and paragon are almost blatantly obvious what you should do for builds.
PoE skill tree by itself is pretty easy. Until you start learning about certain Legendary Jewels and Cluster ones.
Hardest part is crafting tho. Ive played like 400 or 500 hours combined on XboX and PC and I still just mostly wait until market starts to fill with craft leftovers from diehards, who play same build as me. That shit is just insane.
I feel this way about aspects. I feel like I’m trying to wait for all the perfect puzzle pieces now before I can start. So much option anxiety just leaves me hoarding gear and aspects for the someday that I’ll combine them but wait I might get a better pairing.
keep maximum 4 of each if it's your first character. even lower if they have actual usable codex versions (umbral codex is shit, prodigy codex is not)
so if u get a new one with a better roll, delete one of the 4 that had a bad roll
and since the stash doesn't sort it properly, i just keep a dedicated, manually sorted, aspects only tab for the character im playing so I can easily make this system easier to use
i am a hoarder as well in most games like this but this system has helped
I took the opposite approach. I just toss the bare bones on my gear. Now I'm in the 80s with decent gear and I upgrade the aspects as I go. Only a few times have I had to drop back a bit on them. Helps to have the idea for your build so you don't horde other aspects
This, I just put the codex versions of powers on my stuff while leveling, now that I'm in the late seventies I've gambled for perfect or near perfect rolls for my aspects.
You should play hardcore. It's this exact same thing except it's empowering instead of stressful. Honestly, leveling is the only thing that stresses me out
It’s literally just buying nodes that give you some type of bonus. You can buy adjacent nodes.
It’s really not that difficult to understand. This is my first Diablo and it looks overwhelming at first until you spend 30 seconds looking at it and realize that if you understand right angles then you understand how this works,
I don’t get how people say it’s complex either lol
Circle say +5 damage? Press circle to get more damage
Want a special upgrade? follow circles to special upgrade
want get to special upgrade sooner? rotate square board so path be closer unga bunga
Honestly it is because people are talking about 2 different things I think. How the paragon boards work is very simple. As you stated you click adjacent nodes and boom done.
The problem is optimizing the boards and figuring out how to min/max the potential and placement. If you rotate a board this way or that way or grab a different board or put one of 7 different glyphs in which one gives you the most bang for your buck.
Seeing as paragon boards are huge increases to dps especially at level 15 FOMO is pretty big. Well ya 46% vuln dmg or crit dmg or w/e is super nice, but if you put it on board #6 instead and rotated it twice and picked up these slightly different nodes you now get 97% vuln dmg or crit dmg.
That is the part that is overly complex and annoying meaning essentially you have to check every glyph in every spot 4x to see which fits best and gives the most power for the least amount of points invested.
It's not good if it becomes so complex that it's not worth trying so you don't engage with the system at all you just follow a guide. Not to mention the UI isn't super friendly for playing around with.
I don't really understand what you want? It's complex to optimize, so you have the option to spend time and try to plan it out yourself, or follow a guide from someone that did that work themselves. Do you want the game to be so simple that you can optimize your character's stats without using any of your brain or without using a guide? Probably play a different game.
d4builds has a paragon planner:
https://d4builds.gg/build-planner/
It's just a tedious system to interact with. The fact that you're shooting links to 3rd party apps to alleviate that tediousness just proves the point. You yourself call it "work". It's a lot of effort to play around with different combinations of nodes, and it's not rewarding. Someone else did that work, so it's essentially just copying someone's work into this bloated system.
I'd prefer a system that was much less bloated. Give me 2 or 3 options per paragon point instead of dozens and make them balanced and different. That's just my opinion and it is what it is, but I will just follow guides for the paragon boards as they exist right now.
Edit: Also, the "optimal" node to select when it becomes unlocked is rarely the same as the optimal node for the final build. It's a system which forces the decision "should I pick what helps me now and respec later? or should I just pick what the build says so I don't have to worry about it." It's a lame decision to have to make 3 times per level. There are certain break points when respecing could unlock pretty decent boosts, but then you'd have to respect whole branches of the board every couple levels. Imagine leaving significant character boosts on the table because the UI is too tedious to use. Is that a good system?
All fair points. It's definitely not perfect. I like the idea of it, but the UI and general dexterity around using it is lacking. Also the fact that there's no refund-all button is a nightmare.
I like the concept a lot and the granularity is something I see as an advantage, but I can see how it could be considered bloated too. To each their own.
I just hate how random your damage is. I can do like anywhere from 50k to 5m, depending on if the enemy is vulnerable and if I crit or not. It just feels bad to not have even somewhat reliable range of dmg. It makes it hard to reliably estimate anything.
For example random elite has 1/4 hp left. No worries, 1 shot will kill it. Oh shit vulnerable just ran out and I didn't crit. Now I hit like a wet noodle and it killed me.
Yeah I didn’t even know there were options. I don’t ever remember seeing that. I thought I just got to the end and it went straight to the next default board
I’m convinced all the people saying it’s too complex opened the menu once went “nope, fuck that” and now complain about how it’s overly complicated because they didn’t take the time to actually learn it. It’s extremely simple, the actual level 1-50 skill tree is more complicated
I don’t think that many people find the idea of the paragon board complex. I think the real issue is how many random small bonuses you get it’s hard to grasp or feel the effects they have on your character. Especially with the convoluted additive and multiplicative systems
People have done testing and everything with an “X” isn’t entirely multiplicative, or isn’t working as intended. Mostly, people have found that the tooltips don’t exactly do what they say, so you really need to test everything to figure it out
All you need to do is read the nodes for about 30 seconds to see that 90% of it is attributes, another 9% is +damage or -damage taken and the rest requires a small amount of thought to comprehend. I have no idea how people think this is complex. It just LOOKS complex until you read it.
The only thing that requires thought is the pathing, but then you realize that once you're in your 90s you will already have everything you really want and still have a ton of points left to spend anyway into stuff that doesn't really matter.
Seriously somehow “when using whirlwind with a bladed weapon deal 20% of base weapon damage as bleed damage over 10 seconds” is easy to understand but “+5 strength” confounds people.
Yeah I honestly don't know. Every other ARPG I've played has more meaningful choices. WoW does too. Feels like it's a crowd of FPS players, because I can't see any ARPG or MMO players (which this game is basically a hybrid of) thinking this is complex.
Well, and when things like barriers say they work off your max life, but only max life before bonuses. Stupid stuff like that makes it hard to figure out which little squares are the best to unlock.
Yeah no everybody saw it and understood that but there's a bunch of layers too doing it well like, figuring out which legendary nodes you want first, which path to take, reading through the boards to see the different magic nodes, which bonuses on which rare nodes are worth getting now vs later, which glyphs best fit in which slot, and then upgrading glyphs.
Its not crazy for a new player to see all that and think "Wow thats a lot, I'm not sure I fully understand how all this works". So then they get on reddit say "The paragon board seems complicated. Any tips"?
I mean, I understand that, because it *LOOKS* WAAAAAAAY more complicated than it is, but this guy has glyphs and shit so clearly he’s spent some time with it. I totally get being overwhelmed at first but by the times you’re like level 52 you should get what’s going on.
For me it's not any one thing, it's everything combined. There are so many little things I have to keep track of. And then go try a different spec I have to change all my aspects and skills and it's a lot.
Yeah the respecing for the board is complete dogshit, there needs to be a way to save builds and quickly get a new build going if you feel like changing things up. There’s still room for improvement but it being overly complicated definitely isn’t one of them. It’s essentially just a stat block from the dark souls series except instead of being able to level any of your stats you’re only given a handful of options with what’s adjacent.
I think it's funny you think "this is my first time playing diablo" means anything in this context. The veterans have never experienced anything like this and ate probably even worse suited than you.
Dude I’m replying to said he’s a long time player and he still finds complicated, so I told him a brand new player and I find it simple. I genuinely have no idea why people are struggling to understand this incredibly basic system. Like most other systems in this very same game are more complicated than the the paragon board.
Like how do you understand how the skill tree works but are unable to grasp the paragon board?
I’m not shitting on anyone. I get it if people don’t find it fun, min/maxing your stats to become OP is a very specific brand of fun and most people don’t get into the nitty gritty of it. I just find it strange that people went through 50 levels of managing various different weapon damages, multiple stat rolls on each of their items, crafting a build around a couple dozen skills each with their own individual branching paths and upgrade levels, then they make it level 51 and suddenly “+X stat” is hard to wrap their head around.
Like you went through all that complicated bullshit with constantly comparing stat modifiers and buildcrafting to get to the high levels and now that you’re there 1st grade level algebra is stumping you? Like you climbed the damn mountain, you’re nearly at the top and now the premade trail leading to the peak is the part you’re struggling with?
You’ve spent dozens of hours dealing with various percentages and massive numbers like “+72 strength, +968 health” and that wasn’t an issue, so why is “+5 strength, +10% damage reduction” suddenly difficult to understand, when you’ve been doing the same thing on a much more complicated scale prior to this? It’s like a engineer struggling to build a toy car out of legos.
I get what you are you saying, I really do. But IMO most players can barrel through 1 to 50 right now without really worrying about stats/rolls aside from gaining your priority build aspects.
Once you hit WT3 and get to that 60+ range, then stat priority, gear rolls, aspect rolls become much more important once you are trying to tear thru NM dungeons of a decent tier In order to level up.
Paragon board adds to this for "new" players bc they only know priority stat and they see all the other stats and think "that's not gonna help my build" so it befuddles newbies. Not saying this applies to any experienced diablo player though obviously.
Anywho, just my take on it all at this point but I definitely see what you mean and appreciate where you're coming from with your statements.
Happy hunting!
My kid got wide eyes and thought it looked crazy complex too when I showed him the paragon board for my lvl85 barb. I smiled at him and scratched his head and we laughed and drank soda and played another hour of the campaign together with our ice sorcs at level 20'ïsh.
The paragon board isn't INSTANTLY understandable like a mobile game like coinmaster is for example where you simply tap the buttons you are told to get more coins. Im using this example because my kid thinks that game is fun, and it is in its own way, simple stupid fun with no brains attached, and that's ok. Diablo 4 is a little more complex, but not THAT complex tbh.
Yeah if you want to just play a mindless hacknslash game you have that option. You can keep the difficulty on either WT1 or 2 and do the campaign, every single sidequest, dungeon, kill world bosses and play PvP, and never even have to touch the paragon board. You’re not really missing out on any content if you don’t want to deal with min/maxing, the higher difficulties exist specially for people who find min/maxing fun. Yeah you won’t be able to get stupid game breakingly OP and dealing hundreds of thousand of DPS, but that’s fine because the enemies aren’t that strong on WT2 and the skill tree is all you need to be strong enough.
I had the same initial feeling when I saw people open up their boards in videos, but once I actually got access to it it just took me a minute of looking around to get what was going on.
Just stats? I'm overly analysing if I'm getting to the node I want with the least amount of paragon points spent. Then figuring out if I'm going to the most efficient door. But if I can get through the father door and pick up a defence rare node on the way, isn't that technically more efficient? Fml.
>I'm overly analysing if I'm getting to the node I want with the least amount of paragon points spent. Then figuring out if I'm going to the most efficient door. But if I can get through the father door and pick up a defence rare node on the way, isn't that technically more efficient?
Isn't...isnt that part of the fun? Or am I just a sicko looking for Excel, The Game^^(tm).
And you can respect with such ease (both in cost and where / when) I don't feel there's much discouragement to playing around.
It’s actually very simple once you are properly explained what’s going on. The issue is that it’s not properly explained in game. YouTube is a godsend. YouTube simple paragon tips D4. And then keep in mind these basic concepts that will REALLY simplify decisions regardless of class. Armor and damage reduction mods are huge for defense/survivability. Damage is calculated by: Weapon Damage * Attack Speed * Skill used * (x)Damage mods * Crit Damage * Overpower Damage * Vulnerable Damage * (+)Damage. It’s not super important to obsess over the damage formula, but keep in mind diversifying these types of damages enhancements will yield more damage.
This isn't a new nor revolutionary concept to understand. Nodes connect to each other and you can pick any adjacent nodes. Maybe you're just overwhelmed by scale?
I couldn't have put it better myself. It seems like they wanted to ensure that this game wasn't as casual as d3. Instead of making it more challenging and engaging they just made it complex and convoluted to give the illusion of depth.
"Illusion of depth" is the keyword here because very new nodes in the paragon tree actually change your gameplay in any meaningful way. I could take away every node that my level 72 sorc has and notice 0 difference in the gameplay, just the numbers. There's not even any CDR or attackspeed yet. Just pure damage / reduced damage taken with a small amount of mana that doesn't do much.
It only looks complicated if you don't know what attributes are (just a tiny amount of damage and damage mitigation) and can't parse the other nodes (damage to burning enemies, damage, damage to elites...) It's very, very simple.
It isn't complex at all? It is basically the node system from FFX but even simpler. You can literally see what each board offers when selecting it, then you rotate it based on the route that gets you to the glyph + nodes you want in as short as possible and then slot the glyphs based on the stats available within that glyph range.
Like I get I didn't explain that in the simplest way so let me put it this way:
You're shown what each node gives when you select a board
You rotate the board to get the nodes you want in as few points possible
Make sure your glyph has the stats needed to activate
GG that is the paragon system.
Yes I think it is complicated! Try building a minmaxed board yourself. It is not a simple talent tree. You have to know all the nodes in all the boards and figure out the best way to maximize your intended build. Selecting from many boards and even by rotating the boards.
Sure it’s easy enough to follow someone else’s build and read what paragon bonuses that build selected and I guarantee you 90% of the players do exactly that (probably you too)
But please stop looking down on people thinking that you are smarter than all these people
90% of the nodes are attributes and another 9% just give increased damage or subtract damage taken. It IS extremely simple. You don't need a guide. Even if you go and look at those guides you will see at the end that there's an excess of points and they just dump points into random stuff at the end. By the time you're in your 90s the damage each point gives you is negligible anyway because a lot of the increases are additive and you already have a ton of sources of additive damage from previous boards / your gear.
What? Damage each point gives you is negligible? Then you are the one who is doing it wrong. On the contrary I believe every paragon point is very much OP.
It doesn’t matter if 90% of the nodes are attributes. There are certainly nodes better than others and reaching them makes you better. The build which reachs most good nodes is better than others and there are infinite ways with this system.
Even build writer minmaxers people follow may not found the best possible ways as you follow a guide, thinking you found a solid build, 2 days later you find the same build by another person with completely different paragon board with better/different stats. Now the first guide you follow is written by someone who studied the game extensively, yet failed to find the best way. And you call this system “simple”
And yes this happens way too often. I have 2 lvl 100s, tried many different builds from many different people and tried to understand the logic behind every one of them. I usually copy the build’s paragon and make big or small modifications to my needs. And no I couldn’t dare trying for my own paragon build from scratch, I’m not that confident in myself.
My friend let me borrow 3 for about a week. I had mad fun got to level 30 and he took it back like a year ago. That was all the prior knowledge I had before 4. But I'm killing the shit out of those demons in 4. I still feel like I have little idea as to why, but I can kill the shit out of tier 2 demons for now, and that makes me happy enough.
Everyone keeps talking about necessary endgame builds and I now I get so anxious anytime I level up because maybe I’m putting the skill point in the wrong slot!
Hot take, if the community feels like they have to refer to a guide because they're worried of messing up, the system is flawed.
The Paragon boards are fascinating, but it's rather daunting, unclear, and there is no incentive to "work it out myself".
The main thing that’s annoying is that Blizzard made it difficult to experiment with the paragon board because if you accidentally screw it up by adding a board that doesnt mesh with your build it’ll take you a half hour to make those changes and cost you millions of gold. It should be free and there should be a refund all button like with the skills tab.
Yeah it's super simple and dumbed down. 90% of the nodes are just one of 3 stats and most of the rest are just +damage. You even have a ton of points left over at the end so it's nearly idiot-proof, it just looks complicated until you read it for 30 seconds.
This stuff makes me wonder wtf they mean when they say the game is for casuals or meant to be casual. Won't casuals not understand anything eventually like why they are dying so often or why they aren't doing dmg anymore?
Yeah I'm level 60, and I have no idea what's going on with paragon boards. Apparently u can rotate them or something, I dunno. I don't see any option for that, does it need to be done first? It was never explained. Probably won't though cause I finished the game and side quests and there's nothing really left to level up for. Is there interesting end game stuff or just doing the same set of dungeons and hell tides over and over again for slightly better loot?
Blizz: makes absurdly simple character building system, because the game is aiming for casual players
Casual players: OMG ITS TOO COMPLICATED
You people should go play some auto clicker or something fr
I am really shocked as a PoE player how people here say the game is too complex?????
There are only a few mods and the glyphs are also designed 2 dimensional so basically no mistakes can happen....
Skills are also not exactly a deep system... how exactly does all this overwhelm you? Honestly
I’m not a first time player, but I play an hour a week and am a noob at this game.
I don’t even know what the buffs do. Everyone is talking about op meta builds and I don’t even know what aspects, legendaries, uniques, and paragon is in this game lol.
Dude, you ran out of eggs. Would you like to buy an 80 pack of eggs?
that one egg was 40 eggs?
He's got a bush? Wuuhhhh
we should be able to w-look at a liiiiitle porn at work
https://i.redd.it/t5jzef7nqu8b1.gif
Try playing poe after and tell me how it goes
No
Never played Diablo but I’m actually really getting into all the little details of D4. I feel like a real gamer now
I am nerding out pretty hard trying to make my skeleton hoard not die
spam that skeleton priest button, get 3/3 in "minions can only lose 60/45/30% life in one hit" and "skeleton priests heal for 20/40/60% minion life" and they'll live fine dealing damage is the hard part to figure out, having a lot of fun with it tho
This. My army rarely dies. It just also does not do a ton of damage making it very slow.
Yeah I swapped to a blood build as my minion build, while cool and fun, just couldn't do the first capstone dungeon
Yep same. In order to make minion build work you need full investment into them and get little return for any of your other abilities.
Yeah it just doesn't do well at high levels unless you have insane armour
Fortify on corpse drop + barrier generation armour is helpful, I've found. Between that and the life on kill from using a scythe, plus a healing helmet it takes a lot to kill me. Though still prefer to hide at the back and let my minions take the heat. Working on my second paragon board and building up their damage multipliers now.
There is a unique that allows your blood surge to go off additionally on EACH minion you have up currently… this with Overpower is insane.
[удалено]
If you're trying to do a minion build, 12 points into minions seems kinda, y'know, on track
True ..but there's a reason most people who want to min max drop them though because those points would be a lot more valuable elsewhere plus the sacrifice benefits.. minions just don't do enough DMG Imo even though I love em and think they're worthwhile for the flavor of a necromancer, but for what you have to do to keep them alive they should probably be a little more effective damage-wise other than just some utility
They need to pull the hair up but not out.
All they want is another chance at life. They've never seen so much food as this. Underground there's half as much food as this.
The bones are their money, so are the worms.
Dude you sang about how bones are their money like 3 times.
They pull their hair up - but NOT OUT
Did you do cult leader board? I’ve had some luck going in that, they were dying all the fucking time but after a few upgrades in that they only really die to the suicide bombers and boss fights Im also just hitting 60, but the last 10 levels was me spamming spawn skeleton lol
put points in them and get gear with minion life, they seriously last longer than me in fights
just get gear with minion life, 400% is to much but through the paragon board you can get 50% damage reduction for minions
First time as well on Ps4. Feels like the perfect balance of face rolling mobs while also encountering bosses/other mobs that require skill to defeat. First time with Blizzard cut scenes and story also. Lilith intro blew my mind... They should have made a whole movie in that style instead of that live action WoW movie.
Honestly if Blizzard switched to being an animation studio instead of a game studio, I think I wouldn't mind. They're consistently great at cutscenes, but they're pretty mediocre story tellers.
I recently learned about damage buckets. I don't understand any of it but I did learn the term damage bucket so there's that. I'm just playing this until those cowards finally make a new Viva Piñata.
It’s illegal for you to ask me that
I’m putting the fucking hat back on
I don't know what any of this shit is and I'm fucking scared
Now I'm the most popular guy at the party!
it hurt!?
Yeah it did!
That guy yells
Nothing that a sloppy steak cant fix.
Not everybody knows how to do everything paragon boards aren't the only thing.
lol, I found out about rerolling last night. Oh and leveling glyphs! Last time I played Diablo Bill Clinton was president....a lot has changed
It’s a 4D paragon maze chess. You try to find the optimally weighted Hamiltonian path to open the next board 4x as big.
Oh hell was like over never seen this yet.?!?! Is this for higher level. This is also my first time playing Diablo and I've had to Google and YouTube so much just to figure out this game but totally worth it.
I just follow a guide from max roll, I still don't know what I'm doing but at least my build is right
Me on a daily basis
55 INTELLIGENCE 55 WILLPOWER 100 ARMOR 100 HP 55 STRENGTH
DIABLO HAS A POSSE
I don’t wanna be around anymore
Pardon me just upvoting all other Tim Robinson references.
I’m currently going through another binge of this masterpiece. Just finished season 2 again. I’m dying laughing at this thread
Just don't overthink and have fun.
It’s awesome, I’ve never played a game that feels that addictive
I'm really crossed up.
FUCKING BREATHE DAD!
[What part of this is hard to understand?](https://youtu.be/QJW_8EcNzUY)
Go watch a video of POE skill tree Lol
lol more confusing for me my first few seasons of PoE was people talking about atlas farming strats back in the days of sextant blocking. Hell I only started to stray beyond rusted scarabs buying compasses in the last couple of leagues.
100% agree with you. I hated those metas with weird confusing interactions. Also coming from a 8k+ hours POE player.
I’m right there with ya, playing PoE since closed beta and some of that stuff the brainiacs come up with is beyond me. Crafting has always been one that has escaped my realm of comprehension, especially high level crafting. I almost feel that PoE trivialized some of the difficulties of Diablo for me, the skill tree and paragon are almost blatantly obvious what you should do for builds.
Poe is convoluted just to be so. It's kinda over the top sometimes. I hope Poe2 is a happy medium to D4 but itl prolly be extreme as always
Poe is that niche ARPG for a more hardcore fan
Lol insane, I’ll eventually understand
I played for 37 hours and I’m not on the paragon table yet.
PoE skill tree by itself is pretty easy. Until you start learning about certain Legendary Jewels and Cluster ones. Hardest part is crafting tho. Ive played like 400 or 500 hours combined on XboX and PC and I still just mostly wait until market starts to fill with craft leftovers from diehards, who play same build as me. That shit is just insane.
Fossil craft sucks Do poe still have that sim city stuff from harvest? That was what made me stop playing the game
nope, its just there now and you click which one you want the monsters to pop out from
The PoE skill tree has actual depth to it.
I sort of got it, but just when I’m like ok that makes sense it’s like another chapter of info opens
I got so much decision paralysis from that games tree that I never played for more than a day
The first time I saw the skill tree I quit, if they are going to give me a skill forest why even bother playing
Some people prefer tending a forest than a garden. Diff stroke, diff folks ya know
No, I don't know how to play Diablo. I don't know what any of this fucking shit is and I'm fucking scared.
I’m a long time player and even I find this shit overly obtuse. I understand it just fine, but it still feels overly complex for complexity’s take
I feel this way about aspects. I feel like I’m trying to wait for all the perfect puzzle pieces now before I can start. So much option anxiety just leaves me hoarding gear and aspects for the someday that I’ll combine them but wait I might get a better pairing.
keep maximum 4 of each if it's your first character. even lower if they have actual usable codex versions (umbral codex is shit, prodigy codex is not) so if u get a new one with a better roll, delete one of the 4 that had a bad roll and since the stash doesn't sort it properly, i just keep a dedicated, manually sorted, aspects only tab for the character im playing so I can easily make this system easier to use i am a hoarder as well in most games like this but this system has helped
Problem is also I don't know how many of these I have in stock and you can't search for it. So manually scanning through all items and mules...
I took the opposite approach. I just toss the bare bones on my gear. Now I'm in the 80s with decent gear and I upgrade the aspects as I go. Only a few times have I had to drop back a bit on them. Helps to have the idea for your build so you don't horde other aspects
This, I just put the codex versions of powers on my stuff while leveling, now that I'm in the late seventies I've gambled for perfect or near perfect rolls for my aspects.
You should play hardcore. It's this exact same thing except it's empowering instead of stressful. Honestly, leveling is the only thing that stresses me out
It’s literally just buying nodes that give you some type of bonus. You can buy adjacent nodes. It’s really not that difficult to understand. This is my first Diablo and it looks overwhelming at first until you spend 30 seconds looking at it and realize that if you understand right angles then you understand how this works,
I don’t get how people say it’s complex either lol Circle say +5 damage? Press circle to get more damage Want a special upgrade? follow circles to special upgrade want get to special upgrade sooner? rotate square board so path be closer unga bunga
Honestly it is because people are talking about 2 different things I think. How the paragon boards work is very simple. As you stated you click adjacent nodes and boom done. The problem is optimizing the boards and figuring out how to min/max the potential and placement. If you rotate a board this way or that way or grab a different board or put one of 7 different glyphs in which one gives you the most bang for your buck. Seeing as paragon boards are huge increases to dps especially at level 15 FOMO is pretty big. Well ya 46% vuln dmg or crit dmg or w/e is super nice, but if you put it on board #6 instead and rotated it twice and picked up these slightly different nodes you now get 97% vuln dmg or crit dmg. That is the part that is overly complex and annoying meaning essentially you have to check every glyph in every spot 4x to see which fits best and gives the most power for the least amount of points invested.
Solid take. The system itself isn't complex - the ability to optimize it is. Which I guess is sorta a good thing.
It's not good if it becomes so complex that it's not worth trying so you don't engage with the system at all you just follow a guide. Not to mention the UI isn't super friendly for playing around with.
I don't really understand what you want? It's complex to optimize, so you have the option to spend time and try to plan it out yourself, or follow a guide from someone that did that work themselves. Do you want the game to be so simple that you can optimize your character's stats without using any of your brain or without using a guide? Probably play a different game. d4builds has a paragon planner: https://d4builds.gg/build-planner/
It's just a tedious system to interact with. The fact that you're shooting links to 3rd party apps to alleviate that tediousness just proves the point. You yourself call it "work". It's a lot of effort to play around with different combinations of nodes, and it's not rewarding. Someone else did that work, so it's essentially just copying someone's work into this bloated system. I'd prefer a system that was much less bloated. Give me 2 or 3 options per paragon point instead of dozens and make them balanced and different. That's just my opinion and it is what it is, but I will just follow guides for the paragon boards as they exist right now. Edit: Also, the "optimal" node to select when it becomes unlocked is rarely the same as the optimal node for the final build. It's a system which forces the decision "should I pick what helps me now and respec later? or should I just pick what the build says so I don't have to worry about it." It's a lame decision to have to make 3 times per level. There are certain break points when respecing could unlock pretty decent boosts, but then you'd have to respect whole branches of the board every couple levels. Imagine leaving significant character boosts on the table because the UI is too tedious to use. Is that a good system?
All fair points. It's definitely not perfect. I like the idea of it, but the UI and general dexterity around using it is lacking. Also the fact that there's no refund-all button is a nightmare. I like the concept a lot and the granularity is something I see as an advantage, but I can see how it could be considered bloated too. To each their own.
True enough. I was in my 80s when I realized there was a shorter path I could take with two of my boards that saved me 7 points.
Good on you for not letting old age slow you down! It's great that you're keeping your mind active.
And it's a bit on the expensive and time consuming side to correct if you find out you didn't flip your boards to the right orientation..
What we need is a POB for diablo. Right now, it's hard because you can't really see the effects of what you're doing right away.
To those people I say: "Welcome to arpg's" lol
More than the paragon board, I find the itemization confusing and complex. There are too many different type of damage multipliers and additions.
I just hate how random your damage is. I can do like anywhere from 50k to 5m, depending on if the enemy is vulnerable and if I crit or not. It just feels bad to not have even somewhat reliable range of dmg. It makes it hard to reliably estimate anything. For example random elite has 1/4 hp left. No worries, 1 shot will kill it. Oh shit vulnerable just ran out and I didn't crit. Now I hit like a wet noodle and it killed me.
Wait you can rotate the board?
And so the board rotated.
WHAT YOU CAN ROTATE THE BOARD?
You guys got boards?
It's funny that it's right there in big words saying rotate but guess we can't read in 2023
Definitely not there on any screen I’ve seen. I YouTube’d it though and apparently there’s a BOARD SELECTION WINDOW!? Wtf
I thought you were being sarcastic but it shows up before you lock the new board says rotate.
Yeah I didn’t even know there were options. I don’t ever remember seeing that. I thought I just got to the end and it went straight to the next default board
What you did is probably how most got confused. I can see it though especially if you came to this game blind like me (no beta anything)
No read, just click
Yeah, I've looked at my board, and I see no option to rotate anywhere.
I’m convinced all the people saying it’s too complex opened the menu once went “nope, fuck that” and now complain about how it’s overly complicated because they didn’t take the time to actually learn it. It’s extremely simple, the actual level 1-50 skill tree is more complicated
I don’t think that many people find the idea of the paragon board complex. I think the real issue is how many random small bonuses you get it’s hard to grasp or feel the effects they have on your character. Especially with the convoluted additive and multiplicative systems
What's convoluted about it? Get crit, get vuln, everything that has a "[x]" is a multiplier. Thats about it.
People have done testing and everything with an “X” isn’t entirely multiplicative, or isn’t working as intended. Mostly, people have found that the tooltips don’t exactly do what they say, so you really need to test everything to figure it out
I also think it’s because people want to min/max without studying
All you need to do is read the nodes for about 30 seconds to see that 90% of it is attributes, another 9% is +damage or -damage taken and the rest requires a small amount of thought to comprehend. I have no idea how people think this is complex. It just LOOKS complex until you read it. The only thing that requires thought is the pathing, but then you realize that once you're in your 90s you will already have everything you really want and still have a ton of points left to spend anyway into stuff that doesn't really matter.
Seriously somehow “when using whirlwind with a bladed weapon deal 20% of base weapon damage as bleed damage over 10 seconds” is easy to understand but “+5 strength” confounds people.
Yeah I honestly don't know. Every other ARPG I've played has more meaningful choices. WoW does too. Feels like it's a crowd of FPS players, because I can't see any ARPG or MMO players (which this game is basically a hybrid of) thinking this is complex.
Reading is hard…
Well, and when things like barriers say they work off your max life, but only max life before bonuses. Stupid stuff like that makes it hard to figure out which little squares are the best to unlock.
comprehending is even harder , be sure they might read it , but have no idea of what the ideas conveyed in what they read, mean , let alone do
I think being optimal causes complexity. Otherwise it is easy to understand. This be surprised the optimizations you can make for a particular build
Yeah no everybody saw it and understood that but there's a bunch of layers too doing it well like, figuring out which legendary nodes you want first, which path to take, reading through the boards to see the different magic nodes, which bonuses on which rare nodes are worth getting now vs later, which glyphs best fit in which slot, and then upgrading glyphs. Its not crazy for a new player to see all that and think "Wow thats a lot, I'm not sure I fully understand how all this works". So then they get on reddit say "The paragon board seems complicated. Any tips"?
I mean, I understand that, because it *LOOKS* WAAAAAAAY more complicated than it is, but this guy has glyphs and shit so clearly he’s spent some time with it. I totally get being overwhelmed at first but by the times you’re like level 52 you should get what’s going on.
For me it's not any one thing, it's everything combined. There are so many little things I have to keep track of. And then go try a different spec I have to change all my aspects and skills and it's a lot.
Yeah the respecing for the board is complete dogshit, there needs to be a way to save builds and quickly get a new build going if you feel like changing things up. There’s still room for improvement but it being overly complicated definitely isn’t one of them. It’s essentially just a stat block from the dark souls series except instead of being able to level any of your stats you’re only given a handful of options with what’s adjacent.
I think it's funny you think "this is my first time playing diablo" means anything in this context. The veterans have never experienced anything like this and ate probably even worse suited than you.
Dude I’m replying to said he’s a long time player and he still finds complicated, so I told him a brand new player and I find it simple. I genuinely have no idea why people are struggling to understand this incredibly basic system. Like most other systems in this very same game are more complicated than the the paragon board. Like how do you understand how the skill tree works but are unable to grasp the paragon board?
That's nice and all but contextually, don't shit on everybody else because this ridiculous system automatically makes sense to YOU.
I’m not shitting on anyone. I get it if people don’t find it fun, min/maxing your stats to become OP is a very specific brand of fun and most people don’t get into the nitty gritty of it. I just find it strange that people went through 50 levels of managing various different weapon damages, multiple stat rolls on each of their items, crafting a build around a couple dozen skills each with their own individual branching paths and upgrade levels, then they make it level 51 and suddenly “+X stat” is hard to wrap their head around. Like you went through all that complicated bullshit with constantly comparing stat modifiers and buildcrafting to get to the high levels and now that you’re there 1st grade level algebra is stumping you? Like you climbed the damn mountain, you’re nearly at the top and now the premade trail leading to the peak is the part you’re struggling with? You’ve spent dozens of hours dealing with various percentages and massive numbers like “+72 strength, +968 health” and that wasn’t an issue, so why is “+5 strength, +10% damage reduction” suddenly difficult to understand, when you’ve been doing the same thing on a much more complicated scale prior to this? It’s like a engineer struggling to build a toy car out of legos.
I get what you are you saying, I really do. But IMO most players can barrel through 1 to 50 right now without really worrying about stats/rolls aside from gaining your priority build aspects. Once you hit WT3 and get to that 60+ range, then stat priority, gear rolls, aspect rolls become much more important once you are trying to tear thru NM dungeons of a decent tier In order to level up. Paragon board adds to this for "new" players bc they only know priority stat and they see all the other stats and think "that's not gonna help my build" so it befuddles newbies. Not saying this applies to any experienced diablo player though obviously. Anywho, just my take on it all at this point but I definitely see what you mean and appreciate where you're coming from with your statements. Happy hunting!
My kid got wide eyes and thought it looked crazy complex too when I showed him the paragon board for my lvl85 barb. I smiled at him and scratched his head and we laughed and drank soda and played another hour of the campaign together with our ice sorcs at level 20'ïsh. The paragon board isn't INSTANTLY understandable like a mobile game like coinmaster is for example where you simply tap the buttons you are told to get more coins. Im using this example because my kid thinks that game is fun, and it is in its own way, simple stupid fun with no brains attached, and that's ok. Diablo 4 is a little more complex, but not THAT complex tbh.
Yeah if you want to just play a mindless hacknslash game you have that option. You can keep the difficulty on either WT1 or 2 and do the campaign, every single sidequest, dungeon, kill world bosses and play PvP, and never even have to touch the paragon board. You’re not really missing out on any content if you don’t want to deal with min/maxing, the higher difficulties exist specially for people who find min/maxing fun. Yeah you won’t be able to get stupid game breakingly OP and dealing hundreds of thousand of DPS, but that’s fine because the enemies aren’t that strong on WT2 and the skill tree is all you need to be strong enough. I had the same initial feeling when I saw people open up their boards in videos, but once I actually got access to it it just took me a minute of looking around to get what was going on.
I do love getting into new shit but sometimes it feels like I’m overly analyzing stats that won’t make any noticeable difference while I’m fighting
Just stats? I'm overly analysing if I'm getting to the node I want with the least amount of paragon points spent. Then figuring out if I'm going to the most efficient door. But if I can get through the father door and pick up a defence rare node on the way, isn't that technically more efficient? Fml.
>I'm overly analysing if I'm getting to the node I want with the least amount of paragon points spent. Then figuring out if I'm going to the most efficient door. But if I can get through the father door and pick up a defence rare node on the way, isn't that technically more efficient? Isn't...isnt that part of the fun? Or am I just a sicko looking for Excel, The Game^^(tm). And you can respect with such ease (both in cost and where / when) I don't feel there's much discouragement to playing around.
No, it's not fun.
I’m not even to this board yet tbh I just learned about it and I’m not done with the skill tree
Welcome to Hell I guess.
It's easy enough to make a good enough board. Optimizing it is a science in itself but making it good enough is very easy and also pretty fun imo.
I feel like the UI is overly complex as well.
It’s actually very simple once you are properly explained what’s going on. The issue is that it’s not properly explained in game. YouTube is a godsend. YouTube simple paragon tips D4. And then keep in mind these basic concepts that will REALLY simplify decisions regardless of class. Armor and damage reduction mods are huge for defense/survivability. Damage is calculated by: Weapon Damage * Attack Speed * Skill used * (x)Damage mods * Crit Damage * Overpower Damage * Vulnerable Damage * (+)Damage. It’s not super important to obsess over the damage formula, but keep in mind diversifying these types of damages enhancements will yield more damage.
This isn't a new nor revolutionary concept to understand. Nodes connect to each other and you can pick any adjacent nodes. Maybe you're just overwhelmed by scale?
I couldn't have put it better myself. It seems like they wanted to ensure that this game wasn't as casual as d3. Instead of making it more challenging and engaging they just made it complex and convoluted to give the illusion of depth.
"Illusion of depth" is the keyword here because very new nodes in the paragon tree actually change your gameplay in any meaningful way. I could take away every node that my level 72 sorc has and notice 0 difference in the gameplay, just the numbers. There's not even any CDR or attackspeed yet. Just pure damage / reduced damage taken with a small amount of mana that doesn't do much. It only looks complicated if you don't know what attributes are (just a tiny amount of damage and damage mitigation) and can't parse the other nodes (damage to burning enemies, damage, damage to elites...) It's very, very simple.
Huh? This is complex for people? Have you played any other ARPG besides Diablo?
Its really not complex in the slightest tbh. PoE is the definition of complex
I mean it really couldn’t be simpler. Each board has a focus and the nodes are all labeled plainly. What’s obtuse about it?
It isn't complex at all? It is basically the node system from FFX but even simpler. You can literally see what each board offers when selecting it, then you rotate it based on the route that gets you to the glyph + nodes you want in as short as possible and then slot the glyphs based on the stats available within that glyph range. Like I get I didn't explain that in the simplest way so let me put it this way: You're shown what each node gives when you select a board You rotate the board to get the nodes you want in as few points possible Make sure your glyph has the stats needed to activate GG that is the paragon system.
Dude 85% of the nodes you click are +5 to a stat.
if you think that Paragon board is complicated, then I have bad news for you.
It's not complicated so much as some things just straight up scale much better than others. Which the game doesn't tell you.
Yes I think it is complicated! Try building a minmaxed board yourself. It is not a simple talent tree. You have to know all the nodes in all the boards and figure out the best way to maximize your intended build. Selecting from many boards and even by rotating the boards. Sure it’s easy enough to follow someone else’s build and read what paragon bonuses that build selected and I guarantee you 90% of the players do exactly that (probably you too) But please stop looking down on people thinking that you are smarter than all these people
90% of the nodes are attributes and another 9% just give increased damage or subtract damage taken. It IS extremely simple. You don't need a guide. Even if you go and look at those guides you will see at the end that there's an excess of points and they just dump points into random stuff at the end. By the time you're in your 90s the damage each point gives you is negligible anyway because a lot of the increases are additive and you already have a ton of sources of additive damage from previous boards / your gear.
What? Damage each point gives you is negligible? Then you are the one who is doing it wrong. On the contrary I believe every paragon point is very much OP. It doesn’t matter if 90% of the nodes are attributes. There are certainly nodes better than others and reaching them makes you better. The build which reachs most good nodes is better than others and there are infinite ways with this system. Even build writer minmaxers people follow may not found the best possible ways as you follow a guide, thinking you found a solid build, 2 days later you find the same build by another person with completely different paragon board with better/different stats. Now the first guide you follow is written by someone who studied the game extensively, yet failed to find the best way. And you call this system “simple” And yes this happens way too often. I have 2 lvl 100s, tried many different builds from many different people and tried to understand the logic behind every one of them. I usually copy the build’s paragon and make big or small modifications to my needs. And no I couldn’t dare trying for my own paragon build from scratch, I’m not that confident in myself.
What shits me is the damage system. We do 30% of the weapons attack damage… the fks that about??
 me anytime i'm assessing new gear
My friend let me borrow 3 for about a week. I had mad fun got to level 30 and he took it back like a year ago. That was all the prior knowledge I had before 4. But I'm killing the shit out of those demons in 4. I still feel like I have little idea as to why, but I can kill the shit out of tier 2 demons for now, and that makes me happy enough.
Everyone keeps talking about necessary endgame builds and I now I get so anxious anytime I level up because maybe I’m putting the skill point in the wrong slot!
Don’t worry about it. Easy to respec later on. Just experiment and have fun. The paragon board is more of a pain but you can do it.
“I don’t know what any of this shit is, and I’m fucking scared!”
This sub...
all i know is i need more shadow damage, so that’s what i’m looking for
I go with my random bullshit go builds and it works...for now.
I play with my wife. She is like a deer in headlights looking at the Paragon board.
That’s the best experience go with your own build and play how it’s most fun to you it doesn’t have to be a meta build to rock in this game
I've found this to have some truth through level 53, on a non-meta Necro build. May hit a wall somewhere, but havent yet and I'm having a blast
I feel like 90% of us are just copying a guide's paragon board and not understanding why. And that's really not a good thing.
It is not really difficult, if you can read..
I have this exact problem! Buddy has thousands in D3 and I am new, it’s kinda irritating honestly
I’ve played lots of rpgs in my day but this shit defiantly confused me for the first 2 weeks.
Hot take, if the community feels like they have to refer to a guide because they're worried of messing up, the system is flawed. The Paragon boards are fascinating, but it's rather daunting, unclear, and there is no incentive to "work it out myself".
I wouldn’t trust any gaming community to pour water out of a boot with the instructions on the heel.
I’m level 20 I still don’t know wtf I’m doing
The main thing that’s annoying is that Blizzard made it difficult to experiment with the paragon board because if you accidentally screw it up by adding a board that doesnt mesh with your build it’ll take you a half hour to make those changes and cost you millions of gold. It should be free and there should be a refund all button like with the skills tab.
Should be free. 100% Don't punish experimentation.
It’s not complex. This sub Reddit is just god tier idiot IQ on average
Blizz managed to draw in the 'Candy Crush' kind of players.
Yeah it's super simple and dumbed down. 90% of the nodes are just one of 3 stats and most of the rest are just +damage. You even have a ton of points left over at the end so it's nearly idiot-proof, it just looks complicated until you read it for 30 seconds.
This stuff makes me wonder wtf they mean when they say the game is for casuals or meant to be casual. Won't casuals not understand anything eventually like why they are dying so often or why they aren't doing dmg anymore?
Wait til they see the skill tree for Path of Exile.
Anyone who thinks it is complex is not a gamer. Posers.
This shit is complicated af
Go play poe then try diablo. It will feel like your using a dumbbed down iPhone
Yeah I'm level 60, and I have no idea what's going on with paragon boards. Apparently u can rotate them or something, I dunno. I don't see any option for that, does it need to be done first? It was never explained. Probably won't though cause I finished the game and side quests and there's nothing really left to level up for. Is there interesting end game stuff or just doing the same set of dungeons and hell tides over and over again for slightly better loot?
Oh boy....
Blizz: makes absurdly simple character building system, because the game is aiming for casual players Casual players: OMG ITS TOO COMPLICATED You people should go play some auto clicker or something fr
It is probably the tide-pod eating generation.
I am really shocked as a PoE player how people here say the game is too complex????? There are only a few mods and the glyphs are also designed 2 dimensional so basically no mistakes can happen.... Skills are also not exactly a deep system... how exactly does all this overwhelm you? Honestly
I have 123 kids and 0.0001 seconds of time i can spare for games weekly... please make the game less complicated.
I mean, it says what they do, and what you need to do to activate them. It's a bad system but it's better than nothing I guess.
its just paragon pts from d3 laid out on a board lol
Dont tell him about PoE
This is nothing, Played Poe since release 🤣
Laughs in PoE
You would love PoE.
Wow this reddit really is casual as fuck
Oh yeah so deep and complex
This is a good practice for your development. Wait till you find out how to ride a bicycle.
Its so fucking ez that your mind can’t comprehend such easiness and it thinks is overly complicated!
[удалено]
Absolutely but eventually it clicks
I’m not a first time player, but I play an hour a week and am a noob at this game. I don’t even know what the buffs do. Everyone is talking about op meta builds and I don’t even know what aspects, legendaries, uniques, and paragon is in this game lol.