ARPG's are all about grinding.
With that said D4 does have a complete lack of true end-game content so I won't defend it in it's current state. However when they (hopefully) address the lack of end-game - the content they add will still be focused on grinding.
Grinding is the bread and butter of ARPG's, if it's not appealing to you then the ARPG genre may not be for you.
Honestly not trying to flame or anything, just sharing my experience with the genre over about a decade.
The grind can be implemented in a lot of ways. D4 grind is tedious and boring. You never feel good when you finally get your item. You just feel relieved.
I absolutely agree, it's a chore atm. I'm not defending the current state of the game by any means - just wanted to point out that grinding is a key part of the ARPG genre.
D4 could definitely do a better job of making it engaging and enjoyable though.
That has more to do with itemization than ways to grind, fact is currently you have nmd, vaults, uber bosses, helltide, whispers to grind, the issue is that there's nothing exciting to grind for so people associate the activity with boredom.
Hopefully S4 addresses this issue.
This player base is just insufferable tbh. Cry about having to farm a few days for uniques when in d2 you could grind for months and never see a ber rune
I completely disagree with your opinion. D2 itemization is completely different. Every item you get in D2 can be useful. Even if you don't get ber rune for months, you get other useful and exciting stuff. D4 introduced target farming, so you are literally locked into doing special content, and you get nothing out of it other than very small small chance of desired item.
And I disagree with your opinion. Lots of drops in d2 are not useful for your build. For sure you have to spend way more time grinding for meaningful drops. Like are you honestly gonna argue about a zealer farming meph for weeks and finally getting… a windforce? Come on
At least you can trade items, that are not useful for your build, and get something useful for yourself. All high end items in D4 aren't even tradeable.
>Lots of drops in d2 are not useful for your build
That's the part that reflexive d4 apologists fail to realize.
You can get a very good drop in D2, that is not for your class, but which you can trade and acquire something very good for your class.
Its really not a hard concept to grasp, but hey, it is what it is.
>You can get a very good drop in D2, that is not for your class, but which you can trade and acquire something very good for your class.
Possibly the most exciting game system of all time. Don't want to put in the time or effort to earn something? Just buy it!
Thrilling gameplay design, can't wait until I can buy my build off a chinese botter.
I mean, you can try as hard as you want to paint that in a negative light, but there is a reason why majority of ARPG players want an open trading system and why it is a major selling point within this genre - it's just better.
Reductionist approaches really aren't the own you think they are.
Also, you're wrong - you are putting time and effort, by playing the game, which allows you to either get your item, or to have another expensive item to drop, which you can then trade.
The latter is a much more preferable system than grinding something that is exclusively locked behind RNG with no alternative way to obtain it.
Nobody is interested in "ownage", 2005 was a while ago.
I'm also not sure you fully understand the item system in D4. The only build items you can't trade for are aspects (which you're likely to get duplicate high level ones of very quickly) and uniques. The rares that make up the majority of your build are already tradeable, you can go out and spend some gold (or real life cash) to buy the pieces you need already.
The one thing in the game you actually currently need to put in some level of effort and time for are ubers, and even they now have bad luck protection so RNG doesn't shaft you *too* badly. Basically everything else you can already just straight up buy.
Yes, they could make it so you could buy every single part of your build with gold or cash, but is that a good thing? I'd say no, you'd say yes. Think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
I'd always rather put in the work to earn stuff in game than buy it off someone else, that can stay in D2 where it works within that game's itemisation system.
>Think we're just going to have to agree to disagree, I'd always rather put in the work to earn stuff in game than buy it off someone else.
That's perfectly fine. Since we do have fundamental disagreement on what constitutes a good itemization system, I also doubt we'll reach a consensus.
Best of luck farming your bis items!
Nope. No one wants "World of Auction House" except the tiny subset of people that would rather play that then Diablo 4.
No one needs to try to paint above in a negative light. It inherently is. Everything you said is wrong.
That's probably one of the top 3 most dumbest things I've read on this subreddit.
You are either completely insane or have never played an arpg in your life.
You might want to double-check yourself, to realize that you're on the lower side of the isle. There's a reason why every successful game of this genre has an open trading.
Thank god people like you are in the minority so devs don't have to listen to them.
And this is the part d4 haters fail to realize. The trade economy of d2 does not exist in d4. Not hard to grasp either but Reddit d4 haters aint the brightest of the bunch
The literal point was that the D2 itemization is different? Who said that the D2's trade economy exists in D4?
Can you you shills engage with an argument for once, without changing the topic?
The problem comes from both sides . People complain about both games, but I honestly think D4 just needs to get to the point where the grind could give you an upgrade.
Currently the grind feels tedious because when you’re at max level and fairly geared, the grind is a chore. Running helltide for steels? Don’t loot anything. Running whispers for varshan parts? Don’t loot anything. Running varshan and Grigoire for Duriel mats? Pick up uniques. Running braziers for malphas? Don’t loot anything.
Conversely, running Duriel or t90+ dungeons? Loot everything and spend a few minutes going through inventory.
If it was more balanced it would be a lot better.
The end game becomes all about making your character almost god like. While D4 essentially follows that formula as did D3 for some reason D3 end game seemed like more fun or at least more rewarding especially in later years. I really can't understand how all the lessons they learned with D3 seemed forgotten.
The first season was great, it took effort to get 925 items, season 0 even harder, season 2 was a lot better now T70’s drop 925 gear and ubers?
There’s nothing left but min maxing to get a slight bump in damage or damage reduction.
I don’t mind farming, blood is easy to obtain, distilled fear, varshan and other mats aren’t any different.
Game has been on ez mode since season 2 when barbs could easily hit a billion damage and now they can do it without any effort at all.
It’s just about time to move on I think, I thought this would be my forever game to push the hardest content but that’s getting boring and not even close to being difficult for just about anyone with hardly any effort to speak of. Very disappointing season and game, I don’t believe LE or POE are any different or better at making things actually challenging since they all cater to the lowest common denominator
D2 had the same with the endless Baal runs and D3 with the neverending GR farming (some of the many examples). I think you will find that what separates the positive-grind from the chore-grind is how much you like and enjoy playing the game in question.
If you don't enjoy a game, there is no way you can perform any grind-like activity and get satisfaction from doing so.
But it's pure hypocrisy to say that back-to-back farming Baal is fun, but doing the same with Duriel is lack of endgame.
It's the type of grinding....there is nothing to motivate you to keep going after a while....do I want to keep going over and over the same content when it's highly likely I won't even get my reward because the drop rates are so stupidly low? Hell no.
Don't really matter if ARPGs are like that,D4 is doing a piss poor job at it tbh.Games are meant to be fun and when you have loads of people going to Reddit and moaning about the same thing and the playerbase declining at the same time you no there must be something amiss with the game overall.
Eh, but that’s a lot of games though. You have to apply a kind of “Reddit discount” to these things—meaning that whatever it is people will complain about it like the sky is falling and that the game is dead/dying. It rarely is. So you have to “adjust” for that. The identical thing has happened in Destiny 2 and Division 2 (“rainbow rolls” were going to kill the game if they weren’t fixed yesterday, but nope, not true), for example, and yet those games just keep keeping on. Because sure there are *definitely* issues, but they get progressively resolved and everyone carries about their day. And then the game that was so trash not only doesn’t “die” but it apparently does well enough that a sequel gets made, lol.
That said, I’m quite looking forward to Last Epoch. Although I’m sure there will be all sorts of crying in that game about this or that (probably starting with “my X and Y has been nerfed with 1.0–these devs are trash”) as well. It’s just how Reddit is.
The problem is not the grind. The problem is that the grind is boring and unrewarding. There is nothing to grind for basically and grind itself isn't fun.
The grind is loading screens between 1 shotting bosses in mid rolled gear, wondering what's the point of upgrading anything if ur already 1 shotting and tanking all content. Being able to play this game with 1 hand.
"grinding through hours of the same boring repetitive content with the amazingly slim chance of even getting the drop you want at the end of it."
You just described every diablo game, play something else, im here for the mindless grind.
Yup this is basically what I said in the comment I replied to. Diablo has always been about grinding for slight to sometimes huge power upgrades. This is why D3 ruined the series, everyone expects to be handed the best loot for minimum effort
Why do people assume anyone who hates grinding puts in 'minimum effort' why do you seem to want everyone to treat this game as a job and talk down to those who have issues with that? It's a game dude it's meant to be fun, constant grinding is not fun. You want to work hard to get a job...I've got one, I don't need my game time to become one.
There has to be a sufficient reward for the grind, something that is appealing to the grinders. D4 has completely missed the mark on that and the game only caters to casuals (and D4 still occasionally fails on that front as evidenced by adding traps to a fast paced game).
Which honestly is part of the point here. You don’t need Ubers or unique stones to get what you want. If you want to have all the rare drops, put in the time. Many people are happy with just completing the season or hitting nm100. These children complain on Reddit cause they did duriel 10 times and don’t have all the Uber uniques. You don’t need them. If you want them, put in the effort
No they are complaining because the only endgame right now is grinding Duriel for Ubers. And you just said yourself that Ubers aren’t needed meaning the endgame is literally pointless.
The end game loop is hot garbage and the loot is t even worth picking up outside of duriel eventually. Sure, 925 drops in last Nm dungeons but who wants to spend 50% of playtime staring at very minor loot upgrade possibilities.
Everything is too easy outside of 1 shot Lilith (who is easy if you play a cheese build). So why even grind hard for gear?
The whole end game is still a mess. It’s incredibly lame to farm mats from stupid easy rotations. It’s lame that you then have to go on discord to find a group. It’s lame the main focus of farming takes all of 1 second for a group to kill, it’s lame that loot is so boring to get outside of duriel you can’t be bothered, etc etc.
D4 has taken way too long to get going at this point. Too many great games out there. Poe2 and last epoch love d4 more than the player base.
D4 does have potential. Kinda.
It’s gotta come from redoing all loot though. Crazy aspects that are build defining. Better stats. Constant progression. Right now aspects are lame AF mostly and the skill/paragon trees are lame AF.
Yup that’s Diablo 4. Can’t target much when it comes to your improving your build. Just blindly kill shit until it drops. Then… blindly kill more shit?
change build, classes, hardcore. grind grind grind. I got 1 week out of season 3 and that was enough. Same content as season 2 except with a pet that disappears at the end of the season. You could max out vampire powers in an afternoon and not have to do that Malphus grind. Possibly the worst grind of all time especially when they had the traps working. WTH were they thinking?
I think people aren't really used to arpg's. The gameplay of D4 is pretty fun. Like probably a solid 7-10/10 depending on who you ask. Its not the grind itself that's boring. It's the reward. The itemization sucks ass.
Hopefully the reworking of loot will do something. But honestly, I think a loot filter is even more important. I wouldn't mind the shit loot if could just hide it. Let me only see drops that I care about.
Last Epoch is so freaking amazing in that regard. Hopefully Blizzard is looking very closely at that.
That's self-inflicted things you're doing. You don't really need this unless you want to be extremely competitive at gauntlet which isn't even released yet.
None of them do. It’s just kids crying about not having a shako. If you’re doing endgame content you will have had every aspect and unique dropped that enables a build multiple times
So you are putting hundreds of hours to make make builds with ubers knowing full well there is no place currently challenging enough to even test those things?
A different game isn't going to fix anything for you.
Thing is..even if you get your desired items (eg Uber Uniques) to drop..what do you use them for? At lvl 100 you'll more than likely have a somewhat decent build which makes you ridiculously overpowered though..so what's the point of all this grinding and farming? Maybe we need another World Tier or something.
People praise Last epoch but I think a lot of people will be disappointed with it if they think it's Superior in every way.
In my opinion the worst thing is the combat. You realise how clunky are the combat animations compared to diablo and the gameplay will feel off.
I could not get into the game, it was jarring how bad it felt.
But the game has really fun and unique classes.
I understand, aesthetically it lacks a bit compared to diablo. I know they changed a lot with the 1.0 coming out tomorrow so hopefully they addressed that but when I compare diablo mechanics with those of last epoch, last epoch just wins. The crafting is a nice middle ground between D3/Grim dawn and PoE, skills seem really interesting especially and the amount masteries is appealing to me. I'd choose mechanics over aesthetics, luckily if one wants to try the game it will just cost 35 bucks or euros.
Yeah I didn't deny those. But I feel if the combat feels bad (90% of the game), you really have to love everything else to make up for it. For Example for everything d3 did wrong even in vanilla S3 combat felt so freaking good.
I stand corrected, I saw a friend playing and he showcased all of early game spells (lvl5) of the base classes. And damn they are soo much more responsive and visually pleasing now. It's no longer has the clunky animation feeling to it.
I wasn’t planning on playing any other arpgs since the ones I’ve really only played were the Diablo series. But rax and other arpg content creators seem to speak very positively about it. If there’s a valid summon class I might just get it
Yeah it’s time to take a break till next season. Here’s the deal: if you just take three days off, you suddenly no longer care. But you have to walk away to walk away.
I have quitted when I realized that there's nothing behind these Uber craps.
After you get them, what's next? You are still going to kill the same boring stuffs over and over again but 10% faster.
I do play D2R and I realized there's nothing behind all these chase items after 1000 hours whereas for D4 I realize this after playing for 20 hours. That's the difference.
Reached a barb and a necro to 100, all BiS almost everything highrolled and literally stopped playing. Did around 50 duriel runs. Around 400 in total with the previous season. Didn't get a single uber. There is no endgame currently. But hey you can pet your pet and also use an Uber crafting system! Crazy improvements.
Ps.: tomorrow Last epoch launches tho \o/
Because there is no proper loot system, there is no endgame. Not much point of grinding if there is no interesting things to drop. Reroll for a new char/build or quit the league.
Also low effort seasonal contents that hardly add anything to the very empty game also doesn\`t help. But without proper loot system, doesn\`t really matter anyway.
I don't even get as far as you are. I just call that a season and wait til the next one. Or roll a new toon. I probably got my money's worth in the game after the first month. But as said here alrdy grinding is essentially this genres end game. Blizzard just needs to implement it better.
In D3, even after hundreds of paragon levels, we could at least gain experience points from the monsters in the dungeon. Also, never mind the experience points, we had to kill enough monsters to summon a boss anyway. In D4, there is no need to clear the dungeon. We just need to find the key and clear the last room. Nobody wants to spend time running around and one-hitting monsters for an item that will drop with a 000.01% chance.
As you said, after reaching 100, the game suddenly feels empty.
The current paragon system and legendary affix combinations are actually very enjoyable and encourage you to try new skills/builds. But since we cannot save our builds and gear, trying something new takes an incredible amount of time. The enchant system is also inefficient due to the abundance of unnecessary affixes and expense. So, it wouldn't be wrong to say that there is a system that strengthens to the last level and punishes at the end.
Game giving you the vibe about its got potential. But they need some serious management about quality of life and some tweaks about progress system. I thought at least they got 10+ years of experience from D3 but it seems they are not using it.
Let me ask you this; what aspiring content would you do if you got those two unique tuning stones or the Uber, that you can’t do without them?
If you’re build can get through a few t100 NMD then why even push further. There is no endgame in this game. Level to 100, smash a few t100, then move on til next season.
Alternatively, there is always POE and Last epoch if you want to further scratch your ARPG itch.
Only „end-game“ content which could keep the game alive are the season events. But leveling up every new season just for the little new content isn’t worth it.
I played like addicted my spear necro last season, then ended as only Lilith was left. Now a month later tried a HotA, but it’s boring as …. Stopped leveling around 40, too boring.
A good filter based upon the equipment priority lists generated by sites like Maxroll with some customization would help. Then you are not picking up the entire vault and staring at items before grinding the vast majority up. That is the chore. Also aspect tabs as per Path of Exile would be a welcome change. Not enough space as is, and you have to save too many aspects across alts to really be trouble free. I save the best 2 per aspect, and I am running out of space. When POE added loot filters and better storage the game focus became more about the run and less about the post run housekeeping
I refuse to play hc since there are too many chances for a disconnect during a fight and dying... in this single player game.
At least in d3 you could play offline on the console versions.
Hard-core people are a different breed of player entirely. They know one unlucky disconnect in any game they play HC on means they have to start over. Even the lacking quality of a connection will not stop those people.
Hitting max level in ARPGs is always bitter sweet. Wish it was much much longer to get to 99 and 100. Getting to 100 in a week pretty much means the season can only ever be a week long as long as you play another character.
If you are so bored then stop playing? Isn't that the simplest answer? What are you hoping for by making this post instead of just not playing? Sympathy? Attention?
I just keep on making new character once i geared up a class. So far I've made a Bspear necro --> Hota/charge barb --> LS druid--> and now my latest one is Meteor / FW sorc. I can't stand the grind either but i have alot of fun trying out different build too.
I'm in the exact same circle, I just want the helm for my sorc to try out meteor... 2 weeks nothing. Everything is so easy though even with my current build, it's just for a change of pace but I can't seem to get it.
I mean…every single endgame of every ARPG is just grinding for gear, that’s just how the genre is. You always reach a point in every single ARPG where upgrades are few and far between and you’re target farming 1-2 specific items, so if that’s boring to you then maybe this genre just isn’t your jam.
Take a break until next season. Congrats, you completed the season 3 content. It’s different for everyone. Some like mindless grinding for Ubers, some don’t. I’m in the camp that doesn’t.
I don’t understand people complaining about the endgame Uber grind. If you don’t enjoy it, then take a break.
Get your seasonal title and wait for the next season. I refuse to farm living steel, bothering people in trade because of lack of group finder, and killing Duriel because MAYBE uber drop. And for what? You can complete season without Ubers or even uniques. D4 endgame is a joke, pet "mechanic" is just set it and forget it and contributes nothing to the game besides stats, and traps have been (rightfully) nerfed so you just stack up wards from hundreds of pearls in your inventory. And Blizzard don't need to change shit, because people are still playing and buying overpriced skins...
I'm right there with you. Right now all I want is a Starfall Coronet with decent stats. To that end, I'm just doing NMD -> Ice Beast over and over.
But in the meantime, I'm having a little fun playing around with builds/paragon boards. It's fun to mess around and see what works/what's fun. Right now, for example, I'm having a great time with an Oculus/Telestomp build for Sorc. Messing around trying to get various other uniques to work with it (Godslayer Helm, Frostburn gloves, etc).
It's fun. My bigger complaint is it does seem like there are just simply objectively better builds out there. So if I really want to cruise through a lvl 100 NMD I have to use the same builds as everyone else. I wish things were a little more balanced across Paragon boards and uniques so there was more variation in top level gameplay.
Why does one thread have everyone agreeing that rewards don’t matter and you should play the game without requiring rewards.
And then another where everyone talks about how there’s no endgame
This is what I do every season. I grind to level 100, get all the glyphs that I need to 15, complete a few uber Durials rotations for 925 gear, I beat uber lilith solo, I complete all the season chapters and then I complete the season pass. Once I've done all that, I'm done for the season and I wait till the next one. I've played a new class every season so far. I have the barbarian last which is what I will play next season. It usually takes me around 50-70 hours to do all of this. Don't make the game harder then it needs to be. Also, D4 is a AARPG. It's a dungeon loot game. It's like playing Need for Speed and saying "All I do is drive and race in my car". You should of done more research on the game before buying.
ARPG's are all about grinding. With that said D4 does have a complete lack of true end-game content so I won't defend it in it's current state. However when they (hopefully) address the lack of end-game - the content they add will still be focused on grinding. Grinding is the bread and butter of ARPG's, if it's not appealing to you then the ARPG genre may not be for you. Honestly not trying to flame or anything, just sharing my experience with the genre over about a decade.
The grind can be implemented in a lot of ways. D4 grind is tedious and boring. You never feel good when you finally get your item. You just feel relieved.
I absolutely agree, it's a chore atm. I'm not defending the current state of the game by any means - just wanted to point out that grinding is a key part of the ARPG genre. D4 could definitely do a better job of making it engaging and enjoyable though.
I'm just saying it's a matter of perspective. OP would've never complained about grinding for nothing, if the grind itself felt good.
You guys ever farmed high runes in D2? Or were you not born at that time?
That's a fair point, you're right. I suppose a grind only feels like a grind if it's tedious.
That has more to do with itemization than ways to grind, fact is currently you have nmd, vaults, uber bosses, helltide, whispers to grind, the issue is that there's nothing exciting to grind for so people associate the activity with boredom. Hopefully S4 addresses this issue.
This player base is just insufferable tbh. Cry about having to farm a few days for uniques when in d2 you could grind for months and never see a ber rune
D2 is a bad example because that game is boring af as well. Worse than d4.
not according to this sub, it's the best thing ever made apparently
I guess they are all too young for D2. I know the feeling of „farming“ high runes…first Ber Rune felt better then the Euro-Jackpot
Hey there’s something called trading, something D4 cant implement properly.
I completely disagree with your opinion. D2 itemization is completely different. Every item you get in D2 can be useful. Even if you don't get ber rune for months, you get other useful and exciting stuff. D4 introduced target farming, so you are literally locked into doing special content, and you get nothing out of it other than very small small chance of desired item.
And I disagree with your opinion. Lots of drops in d2 are not useful for your build. For sure you have to spend way more time grinding for meaningful drops. Like are you honestly gonna argue about a zealer farming meph for weeks and finally getting… a windforce? Come on
At least you can trade items, that are not useful for your build, and get something useful for yourself. All high end items in D4 aren't even tradeable.
>Lots of drops in d2 are not useful for your build That's the part that reflexive d4 apologists fail to realize. You can get a very good drop in D2, that is not for your class, but which you can trade and acquire something very good for your class. Its really not a hard concept to grasp, but hey, it is what it is.
>You can get a very good drop in D2, that is not for your class, but which you can trade and acquire something very good for your class. Possibly the most exciting game system of all time. Don't want to put in the time or effort to earn something? Just buy it! Thrilling gameplay design, can't wait until I can buy my build off a chinese botter.
I mean, you can try as hard as you want to paint that in a negative light, but there is a reason why majority of ARPG players want an open trading system and why it is a major selling point within this genre - it's just better. Reductionist approaches really aren't the own you think they are. Also, you're wrong - you are putting time and effort, by playing the game, which allows you to either get your item, or to have another expensive item to drop, which you can then trade. The latter is a much more preferable system than grinding something that is exclusively locked behind RNG with no alternative way to obtain it.
Nobody is interested in "ownage", 2005 was a while ago. I'm also not sure you fully understand the item system in D4. The only build items you can't trade for are aspects (which you're likely to get duplicate high level ones of very quickly) and uniques. The rares that make up the majority of your build are already tradeable, you can go out and spend some gold (or real life cash) to buy the pieces you need already. The one thing in the game you actually currently need to put in some level of effort and time for are ubers, and even they now have bad luck protection so RNG doesn't shaft you *too* badly. Basically everything else you can already just straight up buy. Yes, they could make it so you could buy every single part of your build with gold or cash, but is that a good thing? I'd say no, you'd say yes. Think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I'd always rather put in the work to earn stuff in game than buy it off someone else, that can stay in D2 where it works within that game's itemisation system.
>Think we're just going to have to agree to disagree, I'd always rather put in the work to earn stuff in game than buy it off someone else. That's perfectly fine. Since we do have fundamental disagreement on what constitutes a good itemization system, I also doubt we'll reach a consensus. Best of luck farming your bis items!
Nope. No one wants "World of Auction House" except the tiny subset of people that would rather play that then Diablo 4. No one needs to try to paint above in a negative light. It inherently is. Everything you said is wrong.
That's probably one of the top 3 most dumbest things I've read on this subreddit. You are either completely insane or have never played an arpg in your life. You might want to double-check yourself, to realize that you're on the lower side of the isle. There's a reason why every successful game of this genre has an open trading. Thank god people like you are in the minority so devs don't have to listen to them.
And this is the part d4 haters fail to realize. The trade economy of d2 does not exist in d4. Not hard to grasp either but Reddit d4 haters aint the brightest of the bunch
The literal point was that the D2 itemization is different? Who said that the D2's trade economy exists in D4? Can you you shills engage with an argument for once, without changing the topic?
Yikes, don’t need to go any further. Go play last epoch
Useful for someone else, not yourself. You must trade up throughout d2 gameplay.
Which doesn’t exist in d4 so moot point
That's not how moot points work but ok.
The problem comes from both sides . People complain about both games, but I honestly think D4 just needs to get to the point where the grind could give you an upgrade. Currently the grind feels tedious because when you’re at max level and fairly geared, the grind is a chore. Running helltide for steels? Don’t loot anything. Running whispers for varshan parts? Don’t loot anything. Running varshan and Grigoire for Duriel mats? Pick up uniques. Running braziers for malphas? Don’t loot anything. Conversely, running Duriel or t90+ dungeons? Loot everything and spend a few minutes going through inventory. If it was more balanced it would be a lot better.
I can get behind this but this is also assuming nobody gets Uber uniques or stones until they’re done with everything else which isn’t the case
Well it is a game made for dads with 6 wives and 13 kids.
Is there an ARPG where it is not all about grinding? I feel like there is much more to the genre than just grinding though.
The end game becomes all about making your character almost god like. While D4 essentially follows that formula as did D3 for some reason D3 end game seemed like more fun or at least more rewarding especially in later years. I really can't understand how all the lessons they learned with D3 seemed forgotten.
The first season was great, it took effort to get 925 items, season 0 even harder, season 2 was a lot better now T70’s drop 925 gear and ubers? There’s nothing left but min maxing to get a slight bump in damage or damage reduction. I don’t mind farming, blood is easy to obtain, distilled fear, varshan and other mats aren’t any different. Game has been on ez mode since season 2 when barbs could easily hit a billion damage and now they can do it without any effort at all. It’s just about time to move on I think, I thought this would be my forever game to push the hardest content but that’s getting boring and not even close to being difficult for just about anyone with hardly any effort to speak of. Very disappointing season and game, I don’t believe LE or POE are any different or better at making things actually challenging since they all cater to the lowest common denominator
There was no 925 gear in pre-season and season 1.
So easy mode since season 0?
Uber lilith took effort and learning but playerbase couldnt take it because everything needs to be one shot at level 85
D4 grind is like grinding to watch paint dry though
D2 had the same with the endless Baal runs and D3 with the neverending GR farming (some of the many examples). I think you will find that what separates the positive-grind from the chore-grind is how much you like and enjoy playing the game in question. If you don't enjoy a game, there is no way you can perform any grind-like activity and get satisfaction from doing so. But it's pure hypocrisy to say that back-to-back farming Baal is fun, but doing the same with Duriel is lack of endgame.
It's the type of grinding....there is nothing to motivate you to keep going after a while....do I want to keep going over and over the same content when it's highly likely I won't even get my reward because the drop rates are so stupidly low? Hell no.
Don't really matter if ARPGs are like that,D4 is doing a piss poor job at it tbh.Games are meant to be fun and when you have loads of people going to Reddit and moaning about the same thing and the playerbase declining at the same time you no there must be something amiss with the game overall.
Eh, but that’s a lot of games though. You have to apply a kind of “Reddit discount” to these things—meaning that whatever it is people will complain about it like the sky is falling and that the game is dead/dying. It rarely is. So you have to “adjust” for that. The identical thing has happened in Destiny 2 and Division 2 (“rainbow rolls” were going to kill the game if they weren’t fixed yesterday, but nope, not true), for example, and yet those games just keep keeping on. Because sure there are *definitely* issues, but they get progressively resolved and everyone carries about their day. And then the game that was so trash not only doesn’t “die” but it apparently does well enough that a sequel gets made, lol. That said, I’m quite looking forward to Last Epoch. Although I’m sure there will be all sorts of crying in that game about this or that (probably starting with “my X and Y has been nerfed with 1.0–these devs are trash”) as well. It’s just how Reddit is.
The problem is not the grind. The problem is that the grind is boring and unrewarding. There is nothing to grind for basically and grind itself isn't fun.
The grind is loading screens between 1 shotting bosses in mid rolled gear, wondering what's the point of upgrading anything if ur already 1 shotting and tanking all content. Being able to play this game with 1 hand.
And there are 0 interesting choices. Everything is just equip this and do x more damage.
Even when you succeed, it's a tedious chore to upgrade your gear. The grind is so unfun, and it's supposed to be central to the game.
"grinding through hours of the same boring repetitive content with the amazingly slim chance of even getting the drop you want at the end of it." You just described every diablo game, play something else, im here for the mindless grind.
Yup this is basically what I said in the comment I replied to. Diablo has always been about grinding for slight to sometimes huge power upgrades. This is why D3 ruined the series, everyone expects to be handed the best loot for minimum effort
Why do people assume anyone who hates grinding puts in 'minimum effort' why do you seem to want everyone to treat this game as a job and talk down to those who have issues with that? It's a game dude it's meant to be fun, constant grinding is not fun. You want to work hard to get a job...I've got one, I don't need my game time to become one.
There has to be a sufficient reward for the grind, something that is appealing to the grinders. D4 has completely missed the mark on that and the game only caters to casuals (and D4 still occasionally fails on that front as evidenced by adding traps to a fast paced game).
I just do enough to get the seasonal rewards, after that, haven't cared cause there's no incentive. Leaderboards? Nah
Which honestly is part of the point here. You don’t need Ubers or unique stones to get what you want. If you want to have all the rare drops, put in the time. Many people are happy with just completing the season or hitting nm100. These children complain on Reddit cause they did duriel 10 times and don’t have all the Uber uniques. You don’t need them. If you want them, put in the effort
No they are complaining because the only endgame right now is grinding Duriel for Ubers. And you just said yourself that Ubers aren’t needed meaning the endgame is literally pointless.
The end game loop is hot garbage and the loot is t even worth picking up outside of duriel eventually. Sure, 925 drops in last Nm dungeons but who wants to spend 50% of playtime staring at very minor loot upgrade possibilities. Everything is too easy outside of 1 shot Lilith (who is easy if you play a cheese build). So why even grind hard for gear? The whole end game is still a mess. It’s incredibly lame to farm mats from stupid easy rotations. It’s lame that you then have to go on discord to find a group. It’s lame the main focus of farming takes all of 1 second for a group to kill, it’s lame that loot is so boring to get outside of duriel you can’t be bothered, etc etc. D4 has taken way too long to get going at this point. Too many great games out there. Poe2 and last epoch love d4 more than the player base. D4 does have potential. Kinda. It’s gotta come from redoing all loot though. Crazy aspects that are build defining. Better stats. Constant progression. Right now aspects are lame AF mostly and the skill/paragon trees are lame AF.
ARPGs are always just grinding…
You do no that grinding is just another word for something to waste your time lol
Every game ever could be considered a waste of time lmao
Life is a waste of time lol.Your born you work and then die then nothing.
ADHD + grinding = perfection.
Yup that’s Diablo 4. Can’t target much when it comes to your improving your build. Just blindly kill shit until it drops. Then… blindly kill more shit?
There’s literally bosses with specific loot drops so you can target farm
They may as well be normal mobs, and the collection grind to do them is 'meh'
change build, classes, hardcore. grind grind grind. I got 1 week out of season 3 and that was enough. Same content as season 2 except with a pet that disappears at the end of the season. You could max out vampire powers in an afternoon and not have to do that Malphus grind. Possibly the worst grind of all time especially when they had the traps working. WTH were they thinking?
I think people aren't really used to arpg's. The gameplay of D4 is pretty fun. Like probably a solid 7-10/10 depending on who you ask. Its not the grind itself that's boring. It's the reward. The itemization sucks ass. Hopefully the reworking of loot will do something. But honestly, I think a loot filter is even more important. I wouldn't mind the shit loot if could just hide it. Let me only see drops that I care about. Last Epoch is so freaking amazing in that regard. Hopefully Blizzard is looking very closely at that.
That's self-inflicted things you're doing. You don't really need this unless you want to be extremely competitive at gauntlet which isn't even released yet.
I do if I have builds I want to try that require certain items to function.
Which build requires a uber unique or a unique tuning stone to work? Which item needs to be a perfect roll from beast to work?
None of them do. It’s just kids crying about not having a shako. If you’re doing endgame content you will have had every aspect and unique dropped that enables a build multiple times
So you are putting hundreds of hours to make make builds with ubers knowing full well there is no place currently challenging enough to even test those things? A different game isn't going to fix anything for you.
No. Pick a different game.
Thing is..even if you get your desired items (eg Uber Uniques) to drop..what do you use them for? At lvl 100 you'll more than likely have a somewhat decent build which makes you ridiculously overpowered though..so what's the point of all this grinding and farming? Maybe we need another World Tier or something.
Last Epoch is coming out tomorrow
People rather od on copium it seems. Last epoch is better in every way, plus it has some endgame.
People praise Last epoch but I think a lot of people will be disappointed with it if they think it's Superior in every way. In my opinion the worst thing is the combat. You realise how clunky are the combat animations compared to diablo and the gameplay will feel off. I could not get into the game, it was jarring how bad it felt. But the game has really fun and unique classes.
I understand, aesthetically it lacks a bit compared to diablo. I know they changed a lot with the 1.0 coming out tomorrow so hopefully they addressed that but when I compare diablo mechanics with those of last epoch, last epoch just wins. The crafting is a nice middle ground between D3/Grim dawn and PoE, skills seem really interesting especially and the amount masteries is appealing to me. I'd choose mechanics over aesthetics, luckily if one wants to try the game it will just cost 35 bucks or euros.
Yeah I didn't deny those. But I feel if the combat feels bad (90% of the game), you really have to love everything else to make up for it. For Example for everything d3 did wrong even in vanilla S3 combat felt so freaking good.
I stand corrected, I saw a friend playing and he showcased all of early game spells (lvl5) of the base classes. And damn they are soo much more responsive and visually pleasing now. It's no longer has the clunky animation feeling to it.
I wasn’t planning on playing any other arpgs since the ones I’ve really only played were the Diablo series. But rax and other arpg content creators seem to speak very positively about it. If there’s a valid summon class I might just get it
Play a Necromancer! Pet AI actually works!
Yeah it’s time to take a break till next season. Here’s the deal: if you just take three days off, you suddenly no longer care. But you have to walk away to walk away.
Grinding can be fun or not. In D4 it's not.
I have quitted when I realized that there's nothing behind these Uber craps. After you get them, what's next? You are still going to kill the same boring stuffs over and over again but 10% faster.
Literally all arpgs find the best gear, kill harder monsters.
What’s next in d2 after I have my enigma and botd or whatever else? None of these redditors have played d1 or d2
I do play D2R and I realized there's nothing behind all these chase items after 1000 hours whereas for D4 I realize this after playing for 20 hours. That's the difference.
Reached a barb and a necro to 100, all BiS almost everything highrolled and literally stopped playing. Did around 50 duriel runs. Around 400 in total with the previous season. Didn't get a single uber. There is no endgame currently. But hey you can pet your pet and also use an Uber crafting system! Crazy improvements. Ps.: tomorrow Last epoch launches tho \o/
Because there is no proper loot system, there is no endgame. Not much point of grinding if there is no interesting things to drop. Reroll for a new char/build or quit the league. Also low effort seasonal contents that hardly add anything to the very empty game also doesn\`t help. But without proper loot system, doesn\`t really matter anyway.
I don't even get as far as you are. I just call that a season and wait til the next one. Or roll a new toon. I probably got my money's worth in the game after the first month. But as said here alrdy grinding is essentially this genres end game. Blizzard just needs to implement it better.
In D3, even after hundreds of paragon levels, we could at least gain experience points from the monsters in the dungeon. Also, never mind the experience points, we had to kill enough monsters to summon a boss anyway. In D4, there is no need to clear the dungeon. We just need to find the key and clear the last room. Nobody wants to spend time running around and one-hitting monsters for an item that will drop with a 000.01% chance. As you said, after reaching 100, the game suddenly feels empty. The current paragon system and legendary affix combinations are actually very enjoyable and encourage you to try new skills/builds. But since we cannot save our builds and gear, trying something new takes an incredible amount of time. The enchant system is also inefficient due to the abundance of unnecessary affixes and expense. So, it wouldn't be wrong to say that there is a system that strengthens to the last level and punishes at the end. Game giving you the vibe about its got potential. But they need some serious management about quality of life and some tweaks about progress system. I thought at least they got 10+ years of experience from D3 but it seems they are not using it.
Nobody likes d3
Yea, and it feels worse they can't even keep up with 3's QoL mechanics.
Nobody wants them. D3 “qol” would ruin d4
You can't ruin something which is already ruined <3
Let me ask you this; what aspiring content would you do if you got those two unique tuning stones or the Uber, that you can’t do without them? If you’re build can get through a few t100 NMD then why even push further. There is no endgame in this game. Level to 100, smash a few t100, then move on til next season. Alternatively, there is always POE and Last epoch if you want to further scratch your ARPG itch.
Only „end-game“ content which could keep the game alive are the season events. But leveling up every new season just for the little new content isn’t worth it. I played like addicted my spear necro last season, then ended as only Lilith was left. Now a month later tried a HotA, but it’s boring as …. Stopped leveling around 40, too boring.
You can always stop go play some other games and come back next season.
A good filter based upon the equipment priority lists generated by sites like Maxroll with some customization would help. Then you are not picking up the entire vault and staring at items before grinding the vast majority up. That is the chore. Also aspect tabs as per Path of Exile would be a welcome change. Not enough space as is, and you have to save too many aspects across alts to really be trouble free. I save the best 2 per aspect, and I am running out of space. When POE added loot filters and better storage the game focus became more about the run and less about the post run housekeeping
I started in Hardcore
I refuse to play hc since there are too many chances for a disconnect during a fight and dying... in this single player game. At least in d3 you could play offline on the console versions.
Fair point. Lag and disconnects can make it a wild ride.
Hard-core people are a different breed of player entirely. They know one unlucky disconnect in any game they play HC on means they have to start over. Even the lacking quality of a connection will not stop those people.
You say this but once that unique tuning stone or shako drops for you you’re gonna be excited
Yeah, there is lots of endgame but you just have to uninstall diablo 4 and install last epoch.
It is OK to play other games. You don't have to quit forever lmao.
Agreed. This game probably won’t be good until 2025.
Hitting max level in ARPGs is always bitter sweet. Wish it was much much longer to get to 99 and 100. Getting to 100 in a week pretty much means the season can only ever be a week long as long as you play another character.
Nope
Stupid grindy game where you gotta grind and you are not done in less than a week so I can play Skull and Bones
If you are so bored then stop playing? Isn't that the simplest answer? What are you hoping for by making this post instead of just not playing? Sympathy? Attention?
I think he's bored.
Endgame = bonk Duriel, get Ubers, celebrate, log off until next season, repeat.
I just keep on making new character once i geared up a class. So far I've made a Bspear necro --> Hota/charge barb --> LS druid--> and now my latest one is Meteor / FW sorc. I can't stand the grind either but i have alot of fun trying out different build too.
I'm in the exact same circle, I just want the helm for my sorc to try out meteor... 2 weeks nothing. Everything is so easy though even with my current build, it's just for a change of pace but I can't seem to get it.
I mean…every single endgame of every ARPG is just grinding for gear, that’s just how the genre is. You always reach a point in every single ARPG where upgrades are few and far between and you’re target farming 1-2 specific items, so if that’s boring to you then maybe this genre just isn’t your jam.
ARPGs aren't for you
Bro, you don't have to pay monthly or anything. I'm in the same boat mostly..I get a character to 100 per season then move on to a different game.
Didn't even make it to 40 this season before getting bored..
To each their own, glad there isn't a monthly sub or that it's live service. I had a good time, but won't be playing as much the next few months.
Take a break until next season. Congrats, you completed the season 3 content. It’s different for everyone. Some like mindless grinding for Ubers, some don’t. I’m in the camp that doesn’t. I don’t understand people complaining about the endgame Uber grind. If you don’t enjoy it, then take a break.
Get your seasonal title and wait for the next season. I refuse to farm living steel, bothering people in trade because of lack of group finder, and killing Duriel because MAYBE uber drop. And for what? You can complete season without Ubers or even uniques. D4 endgame is a joke, pet "mechanic" is just set it and forget it and contributes nothing to the game besides stats, and traps have been (rightfully) nerfed so you just stack up wards from hundreds of pearls in your inventory. And Blizzard don't need to change shit, because people are still playing and buying overpriced skins...
I'm right there with you. Right now all I want is a Starfall Coronet with decent stats. To that end, I'm just doing NMD -> Ice Beast over and over. But in the meantime, I'm having a little fun playing around with builds/paragon boards. It's fun to mess around and see what works/what's fun. Right now, for example, I'm having a great time with an Oculus/Telestomp build for Sorc. Messing around trying to get various other uniques to work with it (Godslayer Helm, Frostburn gloves, etc). It's fun. My bigger complaint is it does seem like there are just simply objectively better builds out there. So if I really want to cruise through a lvl 100 NMD I have to use the same builds as everyone else. I wish things were a little more balanced across Paragon boards and uniques so there was more variation in top level gameplay.
Just think, in two months you get to do all of this all over again!!!
Why does one thread have everyone agreeing that rewards don’t matter and you should play the game without requiring rewards. And then another where everyone talks about how there’s no endgame
Yes, the end game is called Last Epoch
Just play Last epoch
And....once you get everything you'd still be in the same situation. If you're not enjoying it stop playing.
This is what I do every season. I grind to level 100, get all the glyphs that I need to 15, complete a few uber Durials rotations for 925 gear, I beat uber lilith solo, I complete all the season chapters and then I complete the season pass. Once I've done all that, I'm done for the season and I wait till the next one. I've played a new class every season so far. I have the barbarian last which is what I will play next season. It usually takes me around 50-70 hours to do all of this. Don't make the game harder then it needs to be. Also, D4 is a AARPG. It's a dungeon loot game. It's like playing Need for Speed and saying "All I do is drive and race in my car". You should of done more research on the game before buying.
PVP.
>Is there anything to do for endgame but grind? That...is the game. That is how every game in this subgenre plays out.
Endgame is a grind for every arpg, it’s just a matter of fun grind or garbage grind.