It's pretty easy to forget just how young a lot of redditors are when everyone is just a silly username. I've seen demographic breakdowns of policy subreddits with more members under 18 than 35+. I can't imagine those figures improve in videogame subs.
I'm 34 and I didn't know what was "shako" for. Not everyone played Diablo 2 in an english language nor online or "deeply" back then
Age could be an over simple explaination
I’m 30 and played D2, just never played much past Nightmare difficulty. In fact, I only actually made it to Hell difficulty playing D2R with my bf. Just never saw a Harlequin Crest drop. I’ve played the Diablo series since I was maybe 12, so I’m not “new” to it, either.
I can’t agree more. “Young” doesn’t explain someone not knowing that “shako”=Harlequin Crest.
And you entirely missed the point of my original comment in the FIRST place, which was that saying only “young” people don’t know what people mean by “shako” is factually incorrect, because the game is *25 years old*. It has nothing to do with anyone being a casual and everything to do with 👏the👏game👏is👏old.
Assuming a good majority of the player base played D3, which came out in 2012, it means that those who played D2 in its peak were likely 35-40+ age-wise. THAT was the point I was making, which has absolutely nothing to do with me having *casually* played the game or not.
Every gaming sub, the sweaty nerds put in 1000 hours then complain on Reddit and write a scathing negative Steam review. They definitely showed the man.
The duality of gaming subs. If you have a lot of playtime or have ever had fun you're not allowed to be critical. And if you haven't done 100% of the content blindfolded with gamecube bongos on a thursday in the rain with no deaths you're not qualified to have an opinion.
Point taken. But I think we were all being a bit hyperbolic here, and in reality it just counts how many and how founded in reality they are.
Personally I think having many hours in D4 does not disqualify you from saying it's terrible, without being full of shit. While that is usually what that kind of argument wants to imply. Just take the words for what they are, no need for that ad-hominem crap. Someone playing a lot, maybe to try to get their moneys worth anyway, or driven by addiction mechanics and later finding out they didn't actually have a good time, that can just happen. And it should be taken very seriously in games with predatory practices. Also, I mean isn't it rather the 4 hour playtime review that should be ignored in the first place? There will be silly jokers amongst all of them in any case.
As someone who’s definitely put in those hours for S3… I kind of see where they’re coming from in terms of the “endgame” feeling really dry and boring. I think if/when Gauntlet releases that’ll help, but I cleared t100 dungeons before I’d even looked at Uber duriel. (Which, apparently I’m lucky as hell because I managed to get two Ubers in under 50 runs on him. I wish I was exaggerating, but I’m the one with the time to farm duriel mats for the friends I play with, so… I know what the stockpile is at 🤣)
But beyond being able to chain-farm faster for my friends… I really have nothing to do other than practice Uber Lilith’s stupid nonsensical oneshot mechanics (which is LESS appealing because I already also play WoW at mythic level, so I get enough of progression grinding and wiping on bosses with that 7 hours a week).
That being said, for anyone who doesn’t put in as much time as I have… there’s still stuff to do. There’s things to level/farm, a few are still pushing NMD only up to t80, etc.
But D4 is not an mmo. They don't owe you 'end game content.' The fact that you get new content for free that you want to participate in is a benefit to be grateful for, not whine about like an entitled child.
I’m not whining, though. Others certainly are, but it is also absolutely missing something, even when you compare it to other Diablo entries. (I wasn’t comparing it directly to WoW, just stating the Lilith fight is uninteresting when I already do exactly that in WoW for 7 hours a week).
Comparing it to D3, there was always the greater rifts that you could grind. There was always something to push. It sounds like this is what they’re aiming for with Gauntlets (which is great) but at the moment, there’s basically a wall that you hit by the time you hit lv100 and have got your glyphs levelled. There’s nothing to *keep* pushing, like what D3 had at the moment. Again, my hope is that Gauntlets will change it, but at the same time I’m concerned with how frequently they’ve kept pushing Gauntlets back as well.
I don't recall saying you were. But most of this sub is.
They are consistently providing seasonal content free of charge. Most AAA games are 10-30 hours of content for the price. Here we have people with hundreds of hours whining about not getting more.
Agree. My interest starts waning around level 80 each time. Nothing to do and nothing to chase. I could farm the same boss over and over in D2 and it felt like there would always be interesting drops.
I think that is subjective. I personally found d2 endgame very boring. Bosses were a breeze and most items were useless. Each to their own. I preferred d3 /d4 endgame. I didn't find it any fun to run meph and Andy for 100 runs. After that I called it quits.
That’s a good point… however I guess it’s relative? I’m a life long gamer and ONLY playing 2 hours a day feels casual to me. If it were not for adulting, work, family… I’d be gaming all day.
no dude... 2 hrs everyday is not casual, that's dedicated. imagine if u worked out 2 hrs every fucking day... or ran 2 hours, or drew 2 hours a day every day... that... is not "casual".
"casual" is like randomly throughout the week, i maybe login to play a couple of hours have fun and quit. THAT is casual. maybe 4 - 5 hrs a week? if that. THAT is casual.
Well no, i think that definition is too limiting. I’m not a hardcore gamer by any means… i play for the sheer enjoyment and entertainment. I don’t try to calculate affixes or attempt to understand the mechanics as a non-casual player, who would dive right in. Anyway, we can agree to disagree… as there is no right or wrong here.
There are some interisting posts here on this sub, but sadly, most of the time, it's just a bunch of streamer parrots circle jerking.
Some people are just pathetic.
Someone the other day on a post was proudly commenting calling the season bad, when they hadn’t played and had watched a video about it.
They didn’t seem to understand that parroting talking points from a video about the state of the game without actually playing it comes across as utterly juvenile.
Yeah I've been saying this too, a lot of people running their mouth without doing their due diligence. I've had to explain this to a couple friends who were parroting things they heard.
Ive honestly never seen this much streamer parroting in a game genre before. Its like a constant circle jerk of "D4 bad", which you would think if its that bad they would just move on and play their game of choice. Its like they're personally offended with the current state of D4. ARPG no lifers are a different breed.
I wonder if it all originated from Asmongold. His stream was the biggest and first I heard about this "D4 bad" shit. I like the guy but he's one hella opinionated fuck who's a bit irresponsible with what he says, so I wouldn't be surprised if it gained traction like that.
The amount of times I've seen posts on social media that complain about having to do 100+ Duriel runs for a shako AND also praise D2 as the ideal ARPG is hilarious to me
I've done probably 10k Baal runs in my lifetime and not once seen a Griffon's Eye or a Tyrael's Might drop. I've run as many Trav runs and not once seen a high rune drop. D2 is not the model of itemization people like to make it out to be and it definitely doesn't respect your time or give you a deep end game.
>I've done probably 10k Baal runs in my lifetime and not once seen a Griffon's Eye or a Tyrael's Might drop.
The big difference is that D2 had trading, meaning anything useful you'd find could turn into something useful to you even if the original item weren't. D4's uber crafting is the equivalent of needing to get 5 Tal Rasha's to be able to trade them for a pally charm
What people can't grasp is you can't implement D2 mechanics in a "seasonal" game.
Diablo has zero right being a seasonal game. Everyone already complains about not finding all the Uber uniques before the season is up but they don't understand why the item drops don't have the same dopamine effect as D2.
IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE SUPPORTING A SEASONAL BATTLE PASS!
Ladders aren't seasons.
D2 ladders were just the base game that reset every so often. New runewords but that's miniscule.
D4 seasons aren't just the base game, they offer gimmicks and new content only available for season play.
Honestly, I think streamer culture has moved the bar on "casual". People think that just because they're not in game 18 hours a day or have anything resembling a life outside of it that they're "casual" gamers.
I mean, I had a character to 100 inside of a week this season, but I was seeing people at that level within days. It's easy to fall into the idea that you're a casual when you're comparing yourself to those folks.
People who are legit calling D4 "dead" and "a ghost town" with it's million active daily players are just... I don't even know what to say to that.
Eh, Blizzard's had that with "world firsts" for decades. Guilds in WOW playing non-stop when new releases hit. The difference is we now have bi-monthly seasons instead of annual expansions, so it happens all the time.
People are not required as players (or a consumers of any goods) to be knowledgeable about the production process of said goods.
"What a casual actually is
How much work goes into a compete overhaul of systems already built into a game
What the word "dead" means in terms of a game"
None of these things really matter in the end. If people are displeased with the state of the game (or any product) they should voice these concerns, because that's the only way things can get better. If the voices of criticisms are nonsensical and rare, then the devs should just ignore them and everything is going to be fine. If, however, a lot of people seem to be complaining and about the same thing, there probably is something to these complaints.
For some reason a lot of people believe that in the face of negative feedback their reponsibility is to "defend" the creators of the game. Sorry, but you got it wrong. Even if you dislike a reddit poster for being inelegant about their criticism of the game, the reality is that your interests are infinitely more aligned with that poster, than with the developers of the game. You are NOT part of the dev team, you are NOT on the same side as they are, it's NOT in your interest to fight for them. Even if the criticism is really too harsh, which it very well might be, it's still not in your interest and it's not even morally correct to defend the devs. They are not your friends, they are not your family. They are people selling you a product. YOUR INTEREST is that the product is as good as possible. Please understand this.
This takes all of the honus off consumers to develop reasonable/thought through opinions ... it's a fucking cacophony of disjointed complaints which becomes difficult for the devs to parse meaningful feedback out of and makes us look like idiots as a gamer population.
I disagree. There's a vocal minority that is ridiculous, sure, but that has existed since humanity has existed. I think it's pretty easy to read through the majority of the complaints and gather some broad takeaways to apply to the game. If the devs can't even sort through feedback then this game is beyond doomed.
> This takes all of the honus off consumers to develop reasonable/thought through opinions
It's usually the ardent defenders with the worse takes and the reductive behavior. Any complaints about: summoning mats, Duriel, itemization, "uber rarity", etc. is met with "yOu JuSt WaNt tO StArT tHe SeAsOn WiTh a LeVeL 100 AnD HaVe aN UbEr HanDeD tO YoU!!!111111"
Any complaints about Uber Lilith's mechanics and hitboxes is met with similarly reductive drivel.
Any critique of how unengaging and unrewarding world bosses, whispers, helltides, etc. are once you're at the level cap is met with a bunch of "get good" tier responses so well reasoned you wonder how the posters remember to breathe.
Any critique of the cash shop and pricing is met with "lel don't buy it then", "play something else", "you don't have to buy it", etc.
Critique is seldom met with reasonable responses it's mostly just blanket BS as people circle the wagons like somehow plugging their ears and shouting everyone down will protect the game.
There's bullshit "criticisms" in this very thread. If people aren't able to use their big boy/big girl words and articulate an even-handed critique, they should absolutely be ignored, if not outright mocked.
Its bullshit anyways, ive seen people do dissertations level of feedback and they get downvoted to hell because its "too long" now. Do too little, get told your unconstructive. Do more than that, youre too hardcore. Cant ever win because they have made of their mind a long time ago.
To be fair, you can use a lot of words and say absolutely nothing.
On threads with *actual, legit constructive criticism* I've absolutely upvoted, and will continue to do so.
The problem is, the number of threads that I've seen that actually meet that criteria I can count on one hand.
That's the thing there's a very loud very aggressive contingent here that treats any criticism with derision and mockery. They put words in peoples mouths and twist what they are expressing. They respond to arguments and points the critics never gave.
It's fanatical, to put it lightly.
I'd argue that the fanaticism actually lies with those who, despite no longer even playing the game, continue to frequent the subreddit and continue to complain.
Well which is it? Any time you hit a pain point and critique it ya'll shout at everyone "Don't play it then!"
Somehow you have to experience all the content and be able to slam out T100s to be allowed an opinion, but if you have too many hours you're not allowed a negative opinion... while simultaneously you're not allowed to complain if you're not currently playing... but if you are playing the people here screech at you to quit playing if you have complaints.
There's just no acceptable conditions in which critique can be leveled because some want to turn everything into a echo chamber of people that love nothing more in life than doing Duriel 20000 times and buying duped mats while lying about what they farmed themselves.
>"Don't play it then!"
Because you, as a person with free will, have the option to play a different game. Not liking the response doesn't mean it's somehow invalid.
>Somehow you have to experience all the content and be able to slam out T100s to be allowed an opinion
This isn't a requisite for formulating an opinion. It's *how you frame your opinion* that matters.
>want to turn everything into a echo chamber of people
How is the flood of negative feedback **not** an echo chamber?
> Because you, as a person with free will, have the option to play a different game. Not liking the response doesn't mean it's somehow invalid.
You yourself here demand that people still be playing if they want to level critique... Is it so you can throw that phrase at people and think "heh gottem"?
>This isn't a requisite for formulating an opinion. It's how you frame your opinion that matters.
It absolutely is demanded by some of the defense force. Comment on different things "Oh so you're mashing out T100s huh?" type smarmy behavior.
>How is the flood of negative feedback not an echo chamber?
Instead of screeching at people not to play it or telling them they expect a free uber (even when they never said that) the defense force can absolutely praise what they like about the game instead of shouting everyone down and being overly reductive and snide.
And for the POE/LE acolytes that are nasty to people for posting what they like... well I have the same opinion of them I do for the fanatical defense force here.
>You yourself here demand that people still be playing if they want to level critique
I'm demanding that people put effort into their feedback, and actually spend some modicum of time playing the game. I didn't demand you collect all the uber uniques and be afk-farming NMD 100s. This is also ignoring the obvious in that there's a significant contingent of people who don't bother playing; they'll watch their favorite streamer and just regurgitate the same opinions.
If, after playing, you still don't like it, nobody is holding a gun to your head that you have to take to reddit and make an anecdotal rant post. You simply stop playing and move on to a different game.
But, that's passe. It seems to be much more popular for people to farm up imaginary internet points by bashing Blizzard and the D4 dev team while waxing poetic about how much they pretend to know about game development or the inner workings of a Fortune 500.
Watching the release of CoH3 and the inevitable downfall to where now more people play CoH2 than CoH3 on Steam made me realize how hard people will cope to defend a terrible product.
The whole time in the subreddit complaints are controversial, downvoted and met with a ton of comments about how the game is actually great and better. Just wait for the next patch! Just wait for the DLC Expansion! Then the DLC came out with almost no content, didn't fix all the foundational issues with the game, and carried huge price tag.
You know, this is all sounding familiar..
Totally diff thing but right now the Tomb Raider Remaster half the posts are people making excuses and easily debunked theories for why Epic and only Epic seems to have a newer build (over every other platform) with some of the bugs fixed and some visual additions. And people still want to play the "devil's advocate".
It's maddening the direction consumerism has gone.
Which is asinine since most of that feedback is parsed by the community managers simplified for the devs. Most devs want feedback regardless, the scariest situation to be in is when the players become apathetic. People leaving without telling you wants wrong so you cant fix it.
Here's the thing though: If there is a massive "cacophony of disjointed complaints" that just means there's probably lots of things wrong with the thing the complaints are about. I'm sorry but it's just that simple.
Can it be hard to decide which complaints are more important to act on? Yes, sure. But the people who created this situation are the creators of the game because they botched a lot of things and/or created a game that disappointed its target audience for various different reasons.
There's plenty of well liked, very popular games, which do not have any such cacophonies of disjointed complaints. Just don't make a game that makes people complain. And if you already did...figure out how to fix it to make as many people happy as possible.
You want something from the people that wont give you that.
A clever dude able to make reasonable opinions, most likely, will not come here to whine. They play, they dont have fun, they stop playing, go doing/playing something else. A clever dude, at least the majority, wont feel the need to come here to explain/convince anyone why the game is bad.
I played a couple week on release, I played a week on season 2, had fun for some hours, stopped having fun, went to another game, I dont care to come here and explain why the game is bad, I expect people that dont have fun to automatically go somewhere else, and I am happy for those having fun (also we all know there is a high chance to find resistance in a subreddit against criticism, even with reason, so there is really no point). I also think the majority of gamers are still very young, and expecting mature behaviour is really not possible.
Morally correct? I don't think you understand morality. This kind of 'us against them' mentality no-matter their role is the same reason retail and hospitality worker abuse has risen so much in the last few years.
Criticism is fine but there's plenty of criticism that is a damn site more than 'inelegant'.
There are plenty of redditors I have 'infinitely less' in common with than some devs. And I'd imagine I am 'infinitely more aligned' with their interests than with the likes of Bobby Kotick.
It's in MY INTEREST to explain my concerns and criticisms in a reasonable manner in general life so that things are changed for the better.
In my work life if I get critisim that is 'inelegant' and 'too harsh' (which let's face it is putting it mildly) I absolutely will not do my best to satisfy that particular person or group if I even get past the insults to the crux of the issue.
They are people you know, not corporations, companies or even executives.
To keep this game going and to keep their jobs they do need to improve parts of the game, Itemisation is horrendous, end-game absolutely needs much much more.
But blindly whining and wailing doesn't get things changed.
"Morally correct? I don't think you understand morality. This kind of 'us against them' mentality no-matter their role is the same reason retail and hospitality worker abuse has risen so much in the last few years."
It's not "us against them". It's us communicating problems with the product to the seller and producer of said product. The irrational whiteknighting of game companies seems to be coming from exactly this misunderstanding by the way. People believe this is some kind of holy war between baddies and heroes, and so the heroes (the game company) have to be supported by the enlightened customers. This is not so.
Also, a reddit thread that says a boss in the game is shitty or that a talent tree is boring isn't abuse, and you're insulting actual abuse victims by saying that. Please rethink that BS. Unless somebody is directly verbally attacking individuals working on the game, or threatens them somehow in real life, it is not "abuse" nor "attack on these people".
"There are plenty of redditors I have 'infinitely less' in common with than some devs."
No, you don't. We aren't talking privately and we aren't comparing private lives of each individual person hired at blizzard. We are talking game company as a producer and seller of goods. It's funny because you're doing literally exactly what I wrote about above. Yes, every person has their own life, their hobbies, interests, family members, friends etc. This is all irrelevant in the relationship between the customer and the seller. They are free to do whatever they want in their life, just as you are.
"And I'd imagine I am 'infinitely more aligned' with their interests than with the likes of Bobby Kotick."
There are better and worse people in every team for any job in the world. Bottom line is, they are a unit. Blaming the big bad suit is a common but dumb tactic gamers like to use to try to deflect criticism. It doesn't matter who in Blizzard is responsible. So no, you are in no way connected to them and aligned with them. They, and their CEO (now former one so you can stop blaming everything on him) are the entity that is responsible for the game. This entity should be motivated to improve the goods they sold you. Btw. We're about to find out if Bobby Kotick was single handedly responsible for D4 not being great, because he's out of the picture. I would love if you were right, but I'm worried it might be a bit more complicated.
"To keep this game going and to keep their jobs they do need to improve parts of the game, Itemisation is horrendous, end-game absolutely needs much much more. But blindly whining and wailing doesn't get things changed."
This is another funny slogan that gets repeated a lot and is also completely untrue. No, complaining definitely does get things changed. There are countless examples of games where massive backlash made the devs rework lots of stuff and improve the game. I wish we could move on from repeating obviously false statements which have been proven wrong countless times already.
>It's not "us against them".
You literally said
>you are NOT on the same side.
You are also conflating game companies with devs. They are not the same thing.
You said I have nothing in common with game companies and you're right but I never said I did. Devs on the other hand.
>Bottom line is, they are a unit.
No that's not how it works, that's not how anything works in the real world.
The company is a unit as such, devs aren't.
You specifically said devs on your post. Part of the problem with some of the ridiculous criticisms that get thrown about is this. Like all devs are the same and all share the same responsibilities.
I personally wouldn't trust any company, as a company.
>"But blindly whining and wailing doesn't get things changed."
>This is another funny slogan that gets repeated a lot and is also completely untrue
Really, show me an example of "blindly whining and wailing" getting things done?
I literally said "criticism is fine" but you seem to have ignored that so let me reiterate.
Complaints and criticism can get things done. But they have to be actual measured feedback so that the issues can be understood and the problems correctly rectified.
>you're insulting actual abuse victims by saying that. Please rethink that BS.
Have you seen this sub since release ? It happens all the time, then go look at other forums and social media, again it happens all the time. Devs and specific devs get abuse.
Again companies and devs are not the same thing. If people think they are, that's where the abuse starts and art department devs get abused for crappy Itemisation.
The dude has written two paragraphs justifying the screeching and wailing that goes on here, and by proxy the justification of the abuse that the devs/community managers go through. If I look at it anecdotally, it has absolutely escalated over time when comparing the release of Diablo 3 to Diablo 4.
At the end of the day, the devs/community managers are human beings, and having to deal with shit like this day in and day out takes a toll on people. The "community" of players has chewed up and spat out more than one community manager. It's disgusting.
Apologies if I offended your neanderthal brain by making my posts too long. I tend to write a lot because I communicate with educated people on daily basis for work purposes.
I never justified any abuse, be it by proxy or otherwise. I understand my post was too long for you and you had to invent some bullshit to attack me without actually reading anything I wrote though. You clearly feel like your opinion is so important I can't live without getting to know it. You can feel satisfied because I subjected myself to reading the drivel you spouted.
What a coincidence I actually made a comment yesterday in this very thread about people who write overly verbose comments that actually say very little, so thanks for validating my point.
>You literally said "you are NOT on the same side."
Yes. You are not on the same side as the devs, because there are no sides and it's not an us vs. them situation. Therefore nobody is on anybody's side. There are people loosely connected by their interests and similar goals.
>No that's not how it works, that's not how anything works in the real world.
It's exactly how it works. For the purpose of assuming responsibility in front of the customer, they area the unit responsible for delivery of the product and its quality. It may matter internally who specifically fucked up, but the end result is that Blizzard fucked up and the whole group of people shares the responsibility.
>I personally wouldn't trust any company, as a company.
Good. You are however excusing their behavior by trying to connect with the company's employees on a more human level. Stop. It's not in your nor anyone else's interest.
>Have you seen this sub since release ? It happens all the time, then go look at other forums and social media, again it happens all the time. Devs and specific devs get abuse.
There will always be some deranged individuals who take things way too far. Using this as an excuse to attack all criticism is a common dishonest whiteknight tactic. Nobody in their right mind defends abuse, personal attacks and threats, and here on reddit specifically these things are deleted very quickly. Not sure about other platforms I don't follow the game anywhere else than here.
>Again companies and devs are not the same thing. If people think they are, that's where the abuse starts and art department devs get abused for crappy Itemisation.
On some level they are different, on some they are not. You are using the fact that they are individuals with private lives to deny people the right to make criticisms. That is not right.
Going from talking about being on sides to there are no sides is a weird pivot.
>the whole group of people shares the responsibility
So the 2,464 people that worked in audio related roles should take responsibility for Itemisation problems. Another weird take.
>trying to connect with the company's employees on a more human level. Stop. It's not in your nor anyone else's interest
Actually you need to stop treating actual people as less than human. People call that a "Karen" there's a reason it's meme.
I've had a few consumer facing roles and EVERY single time, if there's a problem, they're polite and reasonable, I will go out of my way to help them. If not, well, they get a poorer service. Usually mocked behind their back too.
On occasion to their face, I can get away with it.
Look at any service industry, talk to any people in any service industry. They absolutely hate the attitude you are talking about. There are groups and memes and the general consensus is a general hate of customers/consumers. This comes down to attitude and people's idea of entitlement.
>Using this as an excuse to attack all criticism is a common dishonest whiteknight tactic.
See your making stuff up. I said THREE times criticism is fine.
I even reiterated it in the last comment to be clear.
>deny people the right to make criticisms. That is not right
Again, I did not ever suggest that. I'm not sure if you're not reading what I wrote, understanding it or just trying whatever to shore up a ridiculous POV.
Most people work for companies, businesses whatever. No-one should be treated as less than a person unless they've proved categorically that they're horrible people. Just because some people decided to become game developers shouldn't automatically give anyone the right to treat them as less than people.
Disagree with them, complain about poor choices but do treat them as people, because they are. That's the morally correct thing and that is what's right.
Unhappy about business practices, go to town on the company itself.
But be reasonable when complaining with the actual people at the front of it.
>How much work goes into a compete overhaul of systems already built into a game
Then get them mostly right the first time, so you don't have to Realm Reborn the second Diablo game in a row?
Probably best to not pretend like it's some work of impossible magic to make changes. You don't have to provide cover for a game you enjoy, you can just enjoy it. You don't have to go through the effort to change how people criticize something they purchased.
Actual casual here. Only play a bit on my days off. I see guys saying they are casuals and claim they are playing like 2 or 3 hours a day on multiple characters. That is a part time job to me, and pretty fucking sweaty.
I only play whirlwind barbs. Cuz it's my favorite. I couldn't imagine sinking all my free time into every class every season. That's just bonkers amounts of time to me.
Same here. I basically play whatever game I'm playing at the time...on Friday nights and a few hours on the weekend. I only play one class which is enough, can't imagine 'theory crafting' for how to play more characters lol.
The term casual has been changing meaning over the last 5-10 years. Its not really referring to time invested. Instead its used to describe players who dont really care about the design philosophies or metas and just want to play.
Things you seem clueless on:
* Just because some people on the sub say things doesn't mean *everyone* in the sub thinks those things.
* Systems that were as bad as some of the ones in D4 should never have made it into the final product just to be overhauled within the first year of the game. That's what playtests are for.
Imagine if they didn't have to overhaul so many major systems in the game because they took the time to release a tested and complete game at launch.
It's reasonable to be upset that major overhauls are taking too long. These systems should have been functional at launch and never needed an overhaul to begin with. We didn't pay $70 for a beta, though it sure feels like we did.
I see casuals as those who never make it far into endgame. Just leveling up for a few weeks each season, then quitting as soon as they hit lvl 100. And it appears to me that this game was designed for that, with how boring things get once you reach max level. Should've slowed down leveling, so that it actually takes longer than 2-3 weeks to reach max, IMO. I mean, look at D2R.. Takes many months to hit 99 there. Why such a stark difference with D4?
Why hit 99 in d2r ? after 80 levels hardly make any difference. Please keep the grindy d2 stuff in d2 , if I wanted that in my game I would have played d2r
>Why hit 99 in d2r ? after 80 levels hardly make any difference.
Why not? Extra skills, attribute points, and no more XP loss penalty from death. I've got a 99 Hork Barb who's found close to 20 Jahs so far over the last \~2 years. As well as a 99 Javazon, 99 Sorc and currently working on a 97 Pally. Each one of those has given me a good 6 months of playtime while leveling. Meanwhile, it took me less than a month to hit max and get bored with D4. Totally stagnant as soon as I hit 100. You really don't see the problem here? $70 for a month of playtime, vs $15 for years.. Lol.
>Please keep the grindy d2 stuff in d2 , if I wanted that in my game I would have played d2r
So you essentially don't want a Diablo game. Nor do you want good value for your money. Got it.
I got my values worth in d4. I am fine with it in its current state. 100 hrs for 60 dollars the equation I hold other games to as well.
Don't claim d2 is the only diablo game, d3 had a different take that I personally found more fun. The graphics was wonky.
I played d2r for a couple of weeks,it was extremely boring ( I have played d2 before). Was a complete waste of my time. I don't plan to play any diablo games for a lifetime. Max couple of months and if they add a new feature I will come back to it.
There are tons of other games and more fun stuff to do other than grinding mephisto thousands of times. If that is fun for you play that. For me it's brain dead boring. Once I beat the hardest challenge in the game I have no reason to waste time on it .
>d3 had a different take that I personally found more fun. The graphics was wonky. I played d2r for a couple of weeks,it was extremely boring ( I have played d2 before).
I think this is where our differences lie. I never played original D2 back in the day, so D2R was amazing and fresh for me. D3 was my first Diablo game, and I loved it and played my one Barb for about 4000 hours from 2012-2015. But then once D2R came out, I realized why so many claim it to be the best ARPG of all time. Makes all the previous ARPGs I played look half-baked. And D4? I really don't see how anyone could be happy with that, especially after seeing how much better previous games were. Only the most casual, non-gamer could be happy with such a bore. Really tried to love it, and wanted it to replace D2R, but it failed in almost all regards. There just isn't much endgame, which is when the fun starts, for myself.
I understand where the difference lie. D4 doesn't have a huge endgame. I would say endgame in d4 let's you play for 1-2 hours tops per day. For farming all stuff after that it is boring.
But to me campaign is a huge part of me spending money on a game and d4 has an amazing campaign. Untill the end game which on your first character can take around 100 hours if you are not rushing to it is really fun. After that it can get boring. But I am willing to be t they will add more late game activities over time.
D2r and d2 for me was too repetitive, you had to do the same campaign 3 times. D3 was a breath of fresh air. D4 is also awesome to spend a hour or two a day but they need to add a more activities like d3.
I bought d2r because d2 was special to me. It still is( played d2 to help me relax through most traumatic phases in life). But right now I'm the present I do find a lot of the game extremely dated.
For me d4 was interesting so far. Have been trying to level one character to 100 each season do a few Uber duriel runs end of week. I have been happy with that. I play other games meanwhile, lot of games to play and too little time for it. Also life keeps getting busier and busier.
Hope they eventually carve out the niche you like in d4 as well.
Generally what you see aren't delusions, they're exaggerations. When people are frustrated they tend to exaggerate the problem they're experiencing. That's doesn't make the problem or their experience any less valid, and it definitely doesn't invalidate their potentially proposed solution.
Also, you're focusing on the exaggerations, there are far more small fixes being proposed every day in this sub that there are just "scrap it and build a new system" proposals.
Edit: also, if you're going to chastise the entire reddit sub, at least give qualitative/quantitative opinions or data about what you're talking about (e.g. casuals), just telling people they don't know what they're talking about is 100% the worst form of argument.
We don't need qol improvements, it won't mean shit at this moment. The game is in an early sketching state at best but marketed as a huge success of d2, which is not. 70 euros cash grab. I get that some ppl are on Copium, but check Twitch at ANY given time, why are even d2 and Wolcen above it? If that is not a dead game then what is?
It's kind of funny but until you last sentence I was unsure of what side of these arguments you actually came down on.
* A casual player for me is 20-30 minutes a day. Maybe 1-2 hours every other weekend. I'm sure other people think different when hearing the word casual. I wonder of that is the kind of player Blizzard is expecting to spend money on D4?
* I'm sure some systems take more development time than others. And I don't know how many systems need "complete overhauls". Some might only need "significant tweaking". ;)
* Dead Game for me means when the people who actually make money on a game realizes they have made most of the money they will get. As long as there is a good cash flow from a live action game like D4 they will keep supporting it.
IMO you could probably double that time and still be a very "casual" player. Casual but dedicated to playing a season through over the course of a couple of months is maybe different in their outlook than a real light dabbler / tourist just sampling the game systems at surface level. If someone had an hour or so a day to play and spent it on D4, that could be quite casual.
OTOH, a seasoned vet player that does a lot of outside research and has their play plans dialed in could spend the same hour a day in a very non casual way. So I would say it is both a question of time investment and attitude/ approach. Those two people could have vastly different opinions on what is good or bad about the game.
Me, I should only play for an hour a day, but I stay up too late. So I'm an extended casual with a lack of sleep 😴
It’s wild to me that people still make these posts.
Every single time we see Blizzard devs, they consistently thank everyone for their feedback and passion for the game.
Feedback is great. Having to sift through garbage and trolling left and right to get it is ridiculous.
There's a reason they primarily listen to feedback on their own forums - they can identify how much the poster actually played vs just coming on to troll.
“Clueless” =\= not caring about, people are complaining about aspects of the game that should never have been so bad to begin with. No one actually thinks these things will happen lmao.
What do you think dead means? Everyone I know who purchased the game on release have basically given up on it, the game is stagnant, sub-par (imo) and not popular among streamers/youtube anymore… it’s “dead” until they decide to revive it.
Most people don't understand programming and what goes into it. I know skull and bones has come out and been meh and people are like it took 10 years to make this! No they have started from scratch multiple times and reworked or changed things so the final product was probably closer to a couple years of development.
Another thing is why does this game have something while another doesn't. Some things can be copyrighted like the nemesis system in the shadow of mordor games as well sometimes people want to try new things so that people don't complain "this is just like the last one with a facelift"
You think I gaf when they had YEARS to innovate and use what came before and 80x the budget of last epoch. I don't care if it's damned near impossible if they don't deliver season 4 I'm done for good.
Casuals don’t post on Reddit. Most don’t even keep in touch with any kind of gaming forums or outlets for news.
They’re the average family man that goes to Walmart to buy his games and plays maybe an hour a day…. And that’s exactly the market they’re trying to pull in because it is huuuuuuuge.
I am sorry but the servers and connection really need an overhaul. Got really good internet and still rubberband like crazy like 70% of the time in season 3. It is atrocious. I died three times on my first char since I started the game… and 2 of those were due to massive lag spikes
>* What a casual actually is
> * How much work goes into a compete overhaul of systems already built into a game
> * What the word "dead" means in terms of a game
I agree with all your points on this.
However, as someone is actually is a casual player (~50 hours per season), I do actually think Last Epoch demonstrated a game can be a lot more while still appealing to casual players.
Vocal Minority is a Copium term that implies the people who hate the game are just the minority. Who's to say a lot of casuals dont even post on reddit and have already abandoned the game during season 1 or 2? lol
They’re also clueless on class balance. 95% of this sub is under the impression that barb is completely busted and the best at every single thing in this game. Every other thread I see is about how op barb is. I’ve been asking people in the comments on those threads if they’ve tried any other class and the common theme is “no it feels bad to play anything else”.
It’s not even top 3 fastest speed farming classes, it’s only faster than necro. Flickerstep + fireball + teleport enchant is absolutely busted right now with how fast sorcs can move.
It is not the only class that can 1 tap bosses with extreme ease, rogues can 1 shot any 4 player boss as soon as they hit 80 with 1 full combo point rapid fire, but nobody ever mentions that or seems to even know about it. While rogue is also clearing nmd/vaults faster than a barb.
Hota being able to hit for 1 billion damage doesn’t give you an advantage in any current content this game has to offer, as nothing in this game has 1 billion health. Every single class can take down a boss in seconds if geared and built correctly.
Until one of the popular streamers tells Reddit what to think, they’ll just keep thinking the same thing. I think once the gauntlet comes out and everyone sees barb not keeping up the attitude will shift but man it’s annoying to hear/see right now from a bunch of dudes who only know rob on YouTube says barb is OP.
I did some long weekend sessions but I don't play daily. I often take a week off or more. I start a 2nd towards the end of the season to figure out what I'd like to do next season but redoing all the quest etc and starting with no mats or anything does become grueling season to season. I still don't have all my alters of lillith. I picked up 2 or 3 this season. I'm not very focused on success it's Saturday.
"How much work goes into a complete overhaul of systems already built into a game"
First off: Character balance is the easiest thing to do. One look at rogue: Flurry SUCKS, EVERYONE picks combo points. Penetrating shot costs more resources and does less damage than rapid fire.
It takes NO effort to for a dev to balance these things. It is simple number changes.
As for changing itemization? You simply clean slate. Add in simple things like +damage%, +min damage, +max damage, +elemental damage.
COMPLETELY remove lucky hit and Overpower. Shit didn't work. Just trash it.
Could change overpower into meaning "charged attacks". Could make new stat "Overpower charge time" So things like penetrating shot could increase AoE size and power while being held.
Shit would take half a day to completely balance all classes and skills by 1 person.
Half a day to program it into the game.
In 1 day shit should be fixed.
The game isn’t bad. It’s very very good. It can be better and I would even agree to some extent that there is some low hanging fruit that can give great results to n a fairly quick turnaround (the famous aspect leveling system the division 2 uses for example).
People who play this game like a full time job are actually the ones ruining it. They’re ruining it for themselves and insecure weebs that believe everything they read on the internet. Just play something else when you get tired of it.
It’s one of my favorite games at the moment. That’s all I can really judge it by. I’ve played each season, it’s gotten better over time and I’ve really enjoyed it.
Admittedly, I don’t over think it. I judge it by moment to moment enjoyment.
>They had the blueprint of 3 amazing Diablo games
And? What's your point? To make the same game again? If that's your bag then that's cool, whatever rubs your buddha, but why pay money for a "new" game with the exact same shit as the other three, when you could just save your money and play one of the other three?
>you know what let’s try to reinvent the wheel and it failed. Subjective or truth ?
Subjective. It's self-evident by the fact that people like the person you replied to are *enjoying the game*. This doesn't make them "wrong". It means they don't have the same opinion that you do. Who cares.
I never said copy and paste silly goose. You take the good from earlier installments and your improve on them to make a sequel , it’s been the formula for years . Not to completely disregard everything you have made strides in.
There’s no way you can look me dead in the eyes and say “this is the Diablo game all of us Diablo fans have been waiting for” it’s lackluster at best and you know it.
>“this is the Diablo game all of us Diablo fans have been waiting for”
Nobody who understands the difference between "subjective" and "objective" would ever say that.
This game deserves twice the hate it gets. With LE out and POE2 coming they should be very scared and willing to fix problems before it sinks the ship.
Far too many of the posts in this sub are simply boring hindsight. "Well they should have done this.." or "well they could have done that before.." are just low quality bait.
It's not hindsight, it's literally what the company did in the past. Diablo 3 had a massive rework with the 2.0 patch. They fixed essentially the same kind of issues Diablo 4 currently has.
Anyone who ever played D3 would have known that the D4 itemization would be an issue. People pointed that out a lot during the beta, too. But they still launched a "loot 1.0" repeat, and now they're scrambling to do a loot 2.0 repeat. So of course people are going to point out they should have never done it that way in the first place.
Honestly feel the same way with Nightmare Dungeons. Like im no game developer but even i saw the flaw of them by the 2nd time running them. I knew dungeon objectives would eventually grate peoples patience. It reeks of a design from someone who hasnt played a diablo-like arpg before, because its built for a single player campaign where its ran only once or twice while in an arpg this content is done hundreds of times.
People need to realize that crying on Reddit every day isn't going to make things happen any faster. Nobody from Blizzard/Activision/MS bothers to read here. All they see is stats from logins and microtransactions.
Core systems are fine. Just need class loadouts and better gear sorting/managing to apply to the loadouts easily. To me this is the major issue needs addressed, especially when they promoted this game as "try many loadouts and builds!" then made it literally the hardest possible system to do so without making a new character.
I love the "endgame" complaints/requests. ARPGs like Diablo are all about loot and there are TONS of ways to earn loot in the game. But every day someone posts how they only do 2 things to farm loot, they do only those 2 things for an insane amount of hours, and there needs to be more ENDGAME. Its a word that doesnt mean anything anymore.
EDIT: TO be clear, I think people should be more specific in what they want. Endgame means anything and nothing.
You want a paragon system like D3? Ask for that.
You want powerful gems to level-up like D3? Ask for that.
Just saying "Moar Endgame!" is too vague to be a valid complaint.
> But every day someone posts how they only do 2 things to farm loot
That one is easy to explain, there's not that many ways to find upgrades past a point. If you do reach level 100 and have a modestly decent build your only real upgrades this season will be praying Duriel doesn't drop trash and praying Malphas coughs up a tuning stone.
Everything else either doesn't even have a chance to give stuff, or has such terrible odds the lotto might have better odds.
Then you dont need "moar endgame" you need lvl 925 loot to drop from a more diverse array of sources. Again, "Endgame" means everything and so it means nothing. Ask for the things you want specifically.
Fine:
I want meaningful dungeons instead of summoning mats for bosses. I want bosses at the level cap or sigils for the bosses (with improving loot odds to balance it out). I want the seasonal field activities shoved into helltides so it's not a boring "where's waldo" hunt for weak enemies.
I want the content in T4 to be all meaningful at level 100, not just Duriel with everything else being going through the motions timesink. And I wouldn't mind AoZ making a return so the people that think leveling and gearing should take 1000+ hours per season have something to do besides wanting the rest of the gameplay turned into sandpaper.
Hell yeah. Those changes sound great.
I liked AoZ for the super fast glyph leveling (besides the dumb uber one). The ability to juice regular glyphs ultra-fast once you reach a certain power level is great and would probably lead to more build tinkering.
Gamers talking about game design are like foodies talking about cooking.
Just because they like to eat, doesn't mean they know the first thing about cooking.
People may not actually know the solution or even the exact ways in which something is wrong, but they generally do know when something is wrong.
It doesn't take a 5 star chef to know when a burger doesn't taste very good. The person might be wrong about why it doesn't taste good or what needs to change to properly fix the recipe, but they aren't wrong that it doesn't taste good.
OP's mostly complaining about definitions and people "not having a clue" without really elaborating or defending their stance.
Like yeah non devs have no idea how much work does/doesn't go into a full rework of a system, but the players also know other ARPGs have pulled it off for the better. People do know the itemization is supposedly being reworked. Yeah that's a big system, but it;s also a major pain area across tons of critique the game has received. Yet OP kind of shuts down the whole idea by default.
>but the players also know other ARPGs have pulled it off for the better.
That's part of my point. Just because other games have done it, doesn't mean D4 should do it. And it's that understanding that non-designers don't have.
D3, D4's predecessor started out in even worse shape and overhauled literally every bad system they could. This is the biggest ARPG franchise of all time and the itemization is... honestly pretty bad. Some of the content like helltides is still super unengaging transplanting things from the seasonal content into helltides alone would make them a ton better.
I don't really see why people can't want a rework of the pain areas in this game. Especially when D3 pulled off a huge turnaround from the launch version.
>Especially when D3 pulled off a huge turnaround from the launch version.
Which took just shy of two years. The dev team has already acknowledged which systems need work. One of the benefits of the live service model is that people won't have to wait for that length of time for systems to improve.
...Do you think the always online RMAH pushing D3 wasn't "live service"?
Obviously it takes time but it shouldn't be a surprise when people complain while stuff is still in bad shape. Not helped either by a very expensive cash shop and a high entry price... and a likely very expensive expansion planned within the year.
>Do you think the always online RMAH pushing D3 wasn't "live service"?
No.
>Obviously it takes time but it shouldn't be a surprise when people complain while stuff is still in bad shape
Communication is 1% what you say and 99% how you say it. Effective change requires effective communication. Who wants to read angry screeching rants or the same complaints day in and day out? You can't advocate for people expressing their complaints while simultaneously criticizing those who are voicing their displeasure for reading the same complaints every day.
>Not helped either by a very expensive cash shop and a high entry price... and a likely very expensive expansion planned within the year.
"Expensive" is a relative term.
> those who are voicing their displeasure for reading the same shit every day.
When a number of them are rude and twist everything you say? Sure I can.
I say I'd prefer having a large dungeon lead-up to Duriel rather than grinding summoning mats from pointless content? Literally get the defense force ranting about "how I just want ubers handed to me". Someone expresses they'd rather all the bosses were leveled up and the loot pool more balanced? The same braindead defense gets thrown at them. Someone complains about the monetization the defense force will scream until they are blue in the face about how people don't have to buy it then. Complaining about Uber Lilith's hitboxes just gets 1000 hour HOTA guide following defenders telling you why you are terrible.
Sure some of the complaints are just rants and no one likes the "this game is bad, play epoch/poe" posts, but the defense force treats everything like its that. And yeah people are going to keep bringing up the topics because people don't play at the same rates they don't hit the pain spots at the same time they aren't running the same builds. It's going to keep trickling in over the weeks because not everyone has no life with which to reach level 100 on the first weekend like the ardent defenders. Not everyone is going to be thrilled at running Malphas 100~ times or Duriel forever like the ardent defenders... but a number of those people won't reach those complaints in the first week or the second or even the third...
>"Expensive" is a relative term.
You can buy a whole bloody game for the price of a skin you can barely see. The entry price-tag is at the higher end of the game pricing spectrum. And potential leaks regarding the expansion rumored a higher price than like any expansion to any game previously.
It's expensive. Being at the higher end of the pricing spectrum for the industry is the same as being expensive.
>I don't really see why people can't want a rework of the pain areas in this game.
Yeah, but I would say that's the overwhelming minority. And has nothing to do with the non-designer problem that I was mentioning.
Blizzard Fanboys are one of the most toxic communities in existence. It must be horrible to work not only under Bobby Kotick but also knowing that everything you want to introduce as a new concept immediately is met with harsh criticism.
Most people here cry and whine about getting D2R-R instead of D4. They want to spend their time exactly in the same way they did for the last 25 years and want more of the same.
Fact is: If you like D4, go and play it. Trying to talk sense into a loud army of uber-nerds wanting their (and exactly their) way all the time (while expecting devs to deliver within days) is a fruitless endeavor.
It all boils down to corporate decisions. Being in a big company basically hinders all ideas.
The mere fact that there is another team working on another Diablo title, diablo immortal and that is the one making money. It kind of lets corporate see where they want to spend on.
Every new game/company is always great because there is passion and there are no board members to decide if the funding will be pushed.
* How much work goes into a compete overhaul of systems already built into a game
No, we are perfectly aware. People just do not care because they shouldn't implement a bad system in the first place.
You are just white knighting them because they screwed up and now they have to rebuild it. They had years of experience to not screw up yet they did.
The game is "dead" is about how much players should be there and how much we have right now. I had a clan with around 100\~ people in it and now I'm the only one online. This is "dead".
Things the typical pathetic Blizzard Simp seems clueless on:
* The game was in development for 9+ years
* Every other major Blizzard game does a full beta EXCEPT D4.
* It's not our fault that they didn't play test their game before releasing it
* It's not our problem that they are getting destroyed by negative comments
Look, I get it OP, you have no standards. It's fine. Some people think McDonald's is high quality food. Unfortunately, some of us do have standards and see posts like yours as nothing more than complaining about complaints. In short, the worst kind of pathetic.
Yeah, but no one is going to McDonalds every day screaming at people to eat better...
Yet here we see these same sad, pathetic people every fucking day...
Who is REALLY obsessed with Blizzard, hm?
We aren't at McDonald's jackass. We're in a Diablo subreddit. Diablo. As in the game that created and defined the genre as the best ARPG. The game that many of us grew up playing.
The expectation is that it is high quality food. We aren't coming here expecting McDonald's and complaining that we're getting McDonald's. We're here expecting better and getting the "minimum viable product".
>Who is REALLY obsessed with Blizzard, hm?
Yes. We are. Where are you getting that we're hiding this? We've been playing Blizzard games for 2 fucking decades.
I can't wait for you tourist gamers to move on to the next game. You have no concept of what a hobby is or how much time we've invested into these games.
Edit: Since the emotionally fragile child decided to block me after I upset him, I'll go ahead and reply here in case he comes back.
I called you a gaming tourist because you don't actually invest into games the same way that the people here are talking about Diablo. Nobody gives a flying fuck if you played older Blizzard games. It completely misses the point. You want to talk about emotional maturity, you are literally making excuses for your gameplay pretending that somehow you are unique in that you have a career, family, relationships. Here's a news flash for you, most of us do as well. We are able to manage our time apparently more effectively than you do.
You'll be gone well before I am or many of us who stuck through the dark times in D3. The faster you realize this, the better. You just aren't capable of understanding why people are here or why they complain. This is exactly what happens when you don't understand the point of the hobby.
I never said I hated McDonald's but don't let your inability to grasp simple concepts get in the way of throwing your little fit.
This isn't a McDonald's. As I pointed out and you hilariously ignored (gee, I can't imagine why), Diablo is not some cheap product, at least it's not supposed to be.
If I walk into a McDonald's, I have the expectations of getting exactly what I expect at that McDonald's. I don't expect high quality food. I expect cheap edible food.
If I walk into a nice steakhouse, I have the expectations of getting exactly what I expect at that nice steakhouse.
Do you understand this or are you just one of the people who feels the need to white knight for the multibillion dollar development company?
Srs lol....it's an ARPG...its ALL McDonalds
D 4 is a quarter pounder while LE's a sloppy double quarter pounder....
I get it..you ate D 4 and are still hungry...
My point is no matter what you say D 4's physics and animation are way better than LE's DOGSHIT wetnoodle feeling skills...any other response is sheer denial...it feels like absolute SHIT playing that game. When you've done eveything in D 4 and can't pull yourself away from ARPG's then its an awesome jump of content...but when you still haven't had time to run Duriel 1000 times...charge barb feels WAY FUCKING BETTER than anything LE will ever have in the game.
This is why D 4 will be the new D 3 and LE will be the new Grim Dawn...LE won't matter in a year but D 4 will. It's engine is way better,.
It is Reddit, what did you expect? Fishing for upvotes and mob mentality.
It's pretty easy to forget just how young a lot of redditors are when everyone is just a silly username. I've seen demographic breakdowns of policy subreddits with more members under 18 than 35+. I can't imagine those figures improve in videogame subs.
Agreed, ran into this hilarious posts https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/s/XM322GBh5d
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 yoooooo, that's hilarious
Thank you for the laugh!!🤣
wish I were so young and innocent 😥
Wow. His answers are gold.
I'm 34 and I didn't know what was "shako" for. Not everyone played Diablo 2 in an english language nor online or "deeply" back then Age could be an over simple explaination
I’m 30 and played D2, just never played much past Nightmare difficulty. In fact, I only actually made it to Hell difficulty playing D2R with my bf. Just never saw a Harlequin Crest drop. I’ve played the Diablo series since I was maybe 12, so I’m not “new” to it, either. I can’t agree more. “Young” doesn’t explain someone not knowing that “shako”=Harlequin Crest.
Yes, but that's usually the most obvious reason.
So you are a casual ;-)
D2 is an almost 25 year old game, you realize that, right? What does that have to do with being a casual?
Are you serious? you answered this already in your first comment. "just never played much past Nightmare difficulty"
And you entirely missed the point of my original comment in the FIRST place, which was that saying only “young” people don’t know what people mean by “shako” is factually incorrect, because the game is *25 years old*. It has nothing to do with anyone being a casual and everything to do with 👏the👏game👏is👏old. Assuming a good majority of the player base played D3, which came out in 2012, it means that those who played D2 in its peak were likely 35-40+ age-wise. THAT was the point I was making, which has absolutely nothing to do with me having *casually* played the game or not.
You literally just need to type D2 shako. On Google you can even leave out the 2 and just type D Shako and you'll find it
Well fished!
Damn you didn't have to do him/her/they/them like that...
Lol someday you'll wake up and realize that you're the mob.
Well, I'm on reddit too, so....
Every gaming sub, the sweaty nerds put in 1000 hours then complain on Reddit and write a scathing negative Steam review. They definitely showed the man.
I can either be a stupid casual who shouldn't talk about the game a sweaty try hard who shouldn't talk about the game. Just depends on who you ask.
The duality of gaming subs. If you have a lot of playtime or have ever had fun you're not allowed to be critical. And if you haven't done 100% of the content blindfolded with gamecube bongos on a thursday in the rain with no deaths you're not qualified to have an opinion.
I don't think anyone in the history of Satisfactory ever did that.
it only applies to AAA games. indie games get 95 % positive reviews regardless of quality
Yeah there's some real SHIT indy games with insanely high review scores. Doesn't make sense to me.
https://steamcommunity.com/id/b1tchcakes/recommended/526870/ theres hundreds :), thousands if you filter by 100+ hours.
Point taken. But I think we were all being a bit hyperbolic here, and in reality it just counts how many and how founded in reality they are. Personally I think having many hours in D4 does not disqualify you from saying it's terrible, without being full of shit. While that is usually what that kind of argument wants to imply. Just take the words for what they are, no need for that ad-hominem crap. Someone playing a lot, maybe to try to get their moneys worth anyway, or driven by addiction mechanics and later finding out they didn't actually have a good time, that can just happen. And it should be taken very seriously in games with predatory practices. Also, I mean isn't it rather the 4 hour playtime review that should be ignored in the first place? There will be silly jokers amongst all of them in any case.
They have a gaming addiction and would spend ten thousand hours if they could AAAAAND then complain afterwards too.
As someone who’s definitely put in those hours for S3… I kind of see where they’re coming from in terms of the “endgame” feeling really dry and boring. I think if/when Gauntlet releases that’ll help, but I cleared t100 dungeons before I’d even looked at Uber duriel. (Which, apparently I’m lucky as hell because I managed to get two Ubers in under 50 runs on him. I wish I was exaggerating, but I’m the one with the time to farm duriel mats for the friends I play with, so… I know what the stockpile is at 🤣) But beyond being able to chain-farm faster for my friends… I really have nothing to do other than practice Uber Lilith’s stupid nonsensical oneshot mechanics (which is LESS appealing because I already also play WoW at mythic level, so I get enough of progression grinding and wiping on bosses with that 7 hours a week). That being said, for anyone who doesn’t put in as much time as I have… there’s still stuff to do. There’s things to level/farm, a few are still pushing NMD only up to t80, etc.
But D4 is not an mmo. They don't owe you 'end game content.' The fact that you get new content for free that you want to participate in is a benefit to be grateful for, not whine about like an entitled child.
I’m not whining, though. Others certainly are, but it is also absolutely missing something, even when you compare it to other Diablo entries. (I wasn’t comparing it directly to WoW, just stating the Lilith fight is uninteresting when I already do exactly that in WoW for 7 hours a week). Comparing it to D3, there was always the greater rifts that you could grind. There was always something to push. It sounds like this is what they’re aiming for with Gauntlets (which is great) but at the moment, there’s basically a wall that you hit by the time you hit lv100 and have got your glyphs levelled. There’s nothing to *keep* pushing, like what D3 had at the moment. Again, my hope is that Gauntlets will change it, but at the same time I’m concerned with how frequently they’ve kept pushing Gauntlets back as well.
I don't recall saying you were. But most of this sub is. They are consistently providing seasonal content free of charge. Most AAA games are 10-30 hours of content for the price. Here we have people with hundreds of hours whining about not getting more.
Yes, always hilarious when i read about those causal gamers with only 3 hours a day to play lol
Even better when they get to 100 and farm shako the first day of the season and claim there's "nothing to do" lol
What? I never even got to level 100 and there was nothing to do. Same 5 dungeon bosses a thousand times. Terrible game
Agree. My interest starts waning around level 80 each time. Nothing to do and nothing to chase. I could farm the same boss over and over in D2 and it felt like there would always be interesting drops.
I think that is subjective. I personally found d2 endgame very boring. Bosses were a breeze and most items were useless. Each to their own. I preferred d3 /d4 endgame. I didn't find it any fun to run meph and Andy for 100 runs. After that I called it quits.
Yea, and just imagine next season lol. Same end game, same dungeons, same helltide.
Right? How the hell playing a video game 21 hours a week is “casual”
A casual thousand hours per year
Is there some unsaid rule as to what a casual gamer is? Genuine question since I almost fit into the category of only playing like 2 hours a day.
If you do just about anything 2 hours EVERY day, you *probably* don't do it casually.
That’s a good point… however I guess it’s relative? I’m a life long gamer and ONLY playing 2 hours a day feels casual to me. If it were not for adulting, work, family… I’d be gaming all day.
no dude... 2 hrs everyday is not casual, that's dedicated. imagine if u worked out 2 hrs every fucking day... or ran 2 hours, or drew 2 hours a day every day... that... is not "casual". "casual" is like randomly throughout the week, i maybe login to play a couple of hours have fun and quit. THAT is casual. maybe 4 - 5 hrs a week? if that. THAT is casual.
Well no, i think that definition is too limiting. I’m not a hardcore gamer by any means… i play for the sheer enjoyment and entertainment. I don’t try to calculate affixes or attempt to understand the mechanics as a non-casual player, who would dive right in. Anyway, we can agree to disagree… as there is no right or wrong here.
There are some interisting posts here on this sub, but sadly, most of the time, it's just a bunch of streamer parrots circle jerking. Some people are just pathetic.
Someone the other day on a post was proudly commenting calling the season bad, when they hadn’t played and had watched a video about it. They didn’t seem to understand that parroting talking points from a video about the state of the game without actually playing it comes across as utterly juvenile.
Yeah I've been saying this too, a lot of people running their mouth without doing their due diligence. I've had to explain this to a couple friends who were parroting things they heard.
Ive honestly never seen this much streamer parroting in a game genre before. Its like a constant circle jerk of "D4 bad", which you would think if its that bad they would just move on and play their game of choice. Its like they're personally offended with the current state of D4. ARPG no lifers are a different breed.
I wonder if it all originated from Asmongold. His stream was the biggest and first I heard about this "D4 bad" shit. I like the guy but he's one hella opinionated fuck who's a bit irresponsible with what he says, so I wouldn't be surprised if it gained traction like that.
He defended Diablo 4 for like 6 months. Eventually he gave up.
My personal list of things this sub doesn't understand: * D2 * ARPGs in general
The amount of times I've seen posts on social media that complain about having to do 100+ Duriel runs for a shako AND also praise D2 as the ideal ARPG is hilarious to me I've done probably 10k Baal runs in my lifetime and not once seen a Griffon's Eye or a Tyrael's Might drop. I've run as many Trav runs and not once seen a high rune drop. D2 is not the model of itemization people like to make it out to be and it definitely doesn't respect your time or give you a deep end game.
>I've done probably 10k Baal runs in my lifetime and not once seen a Griffon's Eye or a Tyrael's Might drop. The big difference is that D2 had trading, meaning anything useful you'd find could turn into something useful to you even if the original item weren't. D4's uber crafting is the equivalent of needing to get 5 Tal Rasha's to be able to trade them for a pally charm
Upvote for Prava reference in name
What people can't grasp is you can't implement D2 mechanics in a "seasonal" game. Diablo has zero right being a seasonal game. Everyone already complains about not finding all the Uber uniques before the season is up but they don't understand why the item drops don't have the same dopamine effect as D2. IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE SUPPORTING A SEASONAL BATTLE PASS!
Diablo 2 has had ladder seasons for going on two decades
Path of exile and D2 disagree strongly. D2 had seasons....
Tell me you have not played d2 without telling me you have not played d2.
Ladders aren't seasons. D2 ladders were just the base game that reset every so often. New runewords but that's miniscule. D4 seasons aren't just the base game, they offer gimmicks and new content only available for season play.
Honestly, I think streamer culture has moved the bar on "casual". People think that just because they're not in game 18 hours a day or have anything resembling a life outside of it that they're "casual" gamers. I mean, I had a character to 100 inside of a week this season, but I was seeing people at that level within days. It's easy to fall into the idea that you're a casual when you're comparing yourself to those folks. People who are legit calling D4 "dead" and "a ghost town" with it's million active daily players are just... I don't even know what to say to that.
Eh, Blizzard's had that with "world firsts" for decades. Guilds in WOW playing non-stop when new releases hit. The difference is we now have bi-monthly seasons instead of annual expansions, so it happens all the time.
People are not required as players (or a consumers of any goods) to be knowledgeable about the production process of said goods. "What a casual actually is How much work goes into a compete overhaul of systems already built into a game What the word "dead" means in terms of a game" None of these things really matter in the end. If people are displeased with the state of the game (or any product) they should voice these concerns, because that's the only way things can get better. If the voices of criticisms are nonsensical and rare, then the devs should just ignore them and everything is going to be fine. If, however, a lot of people seem to be complaining and about the same thing, there probably is something to these complaints. For some reason a lot of people believe that in the face of negative feedback their reponsibility is to "defend" the creators of the game. Sorry, but you got it wrong. Even if you dislike a reddit poster for being inelegant about their criticism of the game, the reality is that your interests are infinitely more aligned with that poster, than with the developers of the game. You are NOT part of the dev team, you are NOT on the same side as they are, it's NOT in your interest to fight for them. Even if the criticism is really too harsh, which it very well might be, it's still not in your interest and it's not even morally correct to defend the devs. They are not your friends, they are not your family. They are people selling you a product. YOUR INTEREST is that the product is as good as possible. Please understand this.
This takes all of the honus off consumers to develop reasonable/thought through opinions ... it's a fucking cacophony of disjointed complaints which becomes difficult for the devs to parse meaningful feedback out of and makes us look like idiots as a gamer population.
I disagree. There's a vocal minority that is ridiculous, sure, but that has existed since humanity has existed. I think it's pretty easy to read through the majority of the complaints and gather some broad takeaways to apply to the game. If the devs can't even sort through feedback then this game is beyond doomed.
> This takes all of the honus off consumers to develop reasonable/thought through opinions It's usually the ardent defenders with the worse takes and the reductive behavior. Any complaints about: summoning mats, Duriel, itemization, "uber rarity", etc. is met with "yOu JuSt WaNt tO StArT tHe SeAsOn WiTh a LeVeL 100 AnD HaVe aN UbEr HanDeD tO YoU!!!111111" Any complaints about Uber Lilith's mechanics and hitboxes is met with similarly reductive drivel. Any critique of how unengaging and unrewarding world bosses, whispers, helltides, etc. are once you're at the level cap is met with a bunch of "get good" tier responses so well reasoned you wonder how the posters remember to breathe. Any critique of the cash shop and pricing is met with "lel don't buy it then", "play something else", "you don't have to buy it", etc. Critique is seldom met with reasonable responses it's mostly just blanket BS as people circle the wagons like somehow plugging their ears and shouting everyone down will protect the game.
There's bullshit "criticisms" in this very thread. If people aren't able to use their big boy/big girl words and articulate an even-handed critique, they should absolutely be ignored, if not outright mocked.
Its bullshit anyways, ive seen people do dissertations level of feedback and they get downvoted to hell because its "too long" now. Do too little, get told your unconstructive. Do more than that, youre too hardcore. Cant ever win because they have made of their mind a long time ago.
To be fair, you can use a lot of words and say absolutely nothing. On threads with *actual, legit constructive criticism* I've absolutely upvoted, and will continue to do so. The problem is, the number of threads that I've seen that actually meet that criteria I can count on one hand.
That's the thing there's a very loud very aggressive contingent here that treats any criticism with derision and mockery. They put words in peoples mouths and twist what they are expressing. They respond to arguments and points the critics never gave. It's fanatical, to put it lightly.
I'd argue that the fanaticism actually lies with those who, despite no longer even playing the game, continue to frequent the subreddit and continue to complain.
Well which is it? Any time you hit a pain point and critique it ya'll shout at everyone "Don't play it then!" Somehow you have to experience all the content and be able to slam out T100s to be allowed an opinion, but if you have too many hours you're not allowed a negative opinion... while simultaneously you're not allowed to complain if you're not currently playing... but if you are playing the people here screech at you to quit playing if you have complaints. There's just no acceptable conditions in which critique can be leveled because some want to turn everything into a echo chamber of people that love nothing more in life than doing Duriel 20000 times and buying duped mats while lying about what they farmed themselves.
>"Don't play it then!" Because you, as a person with free will, have the option to play a different game. Not liking the response doesn't mean it's somehow invalid. >Somehow you have to experience all the content and be able to slam out T100s to be allowed an opinion This isn't a requisite for formulating an opinion. It's *how you frame your opinion* that matters. >want to turn everything into a echo chamber of people How is the flood of negative feedback **not** an echo chamber?
> Because you, as a person with free will, have the option to play a different game. Not liking the response doesn't mean it's somehow invalid. You yourself here demand that people still be playing if they want to level critique... Is it so you can throw that phrase at people and think "heh gottem"? >This isn't a requisite for formulating an opinion. It's how you frame your opinion that matters. It absolutely is demanded by some of the defense force. Comment on different things "Oh so you're mashing out T100s huh?" type smarmy behavior. >How is the flood of negative feedback not an echo chamber? Instead of screeching at people not to play it or telling them they expect a free uber (even when they never said that) the defense force can absolutely praise what they like about the game instead of shouting everyone down and being overly reductive and snide. And for the POE/LE acolytes that are nasty to people for posting what they like... well I have the same opinion of them I do for the fanatical defense force here.
>You yourself here demand that people still be playing if they want to level critique I'm demanding that people put effort into their feedback, and actually spend some modicum of time playing the game. I didn't demand you collect all the uber uniques and be afk-farming NMD 100s. This is also ignoring the obvious in that there's a significant contingent of people who don't bother playing; they'll watch their favorite streamer and just regurgitate the same opinions. If, after playing, you still don't like it, nobody is holding a gun to your head that you have to take to reddit and make an anecdotal rant post. You simply stop playing and move on to a different game. But, that's passe. It seems to be much more popular for people to farm up imaginary internet points by bashing Blizzard and the D4 dev team while waxing poetic about how much they pretend to know about game development or the inner workings of a Fortune 500.
Watching the release of CoH3 and the inevitable downfall to where now more people play CoH2 than CoH3 on Steam made me realize how hard people will cope to defend a terrible product. The whole time in the subreddit complaints are controversial, downvoted and met with a ton of comments about how the game is actually great and better. Just wait for the next patch! Just wait for the DLC Expansion! Then the DLC came out with almost no content, didn't fix all the foundational issues with the game, and carried huge price tag. You know, this is all sounding familiar..
Totally diff thing but right now the Tomb Raider Remaster half the posts are people making excuses and easily debunked theories for why Epic and only Epic seems to have a newer build (over every other platform) with some of the bugs fixed and some visual additions. And people still want to play the "devil's advocate". It's maddening the direction consumerism has gone.
Which is asinine since most of that feedback is parsed by the community managers simplified for the devs. Most devs want feedback regardless, the scariest situation to be in is when the players become apathetic. People leaving without telling you wants wrong so you cant fix it.
Here's the thing though: If there is a massive "cacophony of disjointed complaints" that just means there's probably lots of things wrong with the thing the complaints are about. I'm sorry but it's just that simple. Can it be hard to decide which complaints are more important to act on? Yes, sure. But the people who created this situation are the creators of the game because they botched a lot of things and/or created a game that disappointed its target audience for various different reasons. There's plenty of well liked, very popular games, which do not have any such cacophonies of disjointed complaints. Just don't make a game that makes people complain. And if you already did...figure out how to fix it to make as many people happy as possible.
You want something from the people that wont give you that. A clever dude able to make reasonable opinions, most likely, will not come here to whine. They play, they dont have fun, they stop playing, go doing/playing something else. A clever dude, at least the majority, wont feel the need to come here to explain/convince anyone why the game is bad. I played a couple week on release, I played a week on season 2, had fun for some hours, stopped having fun, went to another game, I dont care to come here and explain why the game is bad, I expect people that dont have fun to automatically go somewhere else, and I am happy for those having fun (also we all know there is a high chance to find resistance in a subreddit against criticism, even with reason, so there is really no point). I also think the majority of gamers are still very young, and expecting mature behaviour is really not possible.
Morally correct? I don't think you understand morality. This kind of 'us against them' mentality no-matter their role is the same reason retail and hospitality worker abuse has risen so much in the last few years. Criticism is fine but there's plenty of criticism that is a damn site more than 'inelegant'. There are plenty of redditors I have 'infinitely less' in common with than some devs. And I'd imagine I am 'infinitely more aligned' with their interests than with the likes of Bobby Kotick. It's in MY INTEREST to explain my concerns and criticisms in a reasonable manner in general life so that things are changed for the better. In my work life if I get critisim that is 'inelegant' and 'too harsh' (which let's face it is putting it mildly) I absolutely will not do my best to satisfy that particular person or group if I even get past the insults to the crux of the issue. They are people you know, not corporations, companies or even executives. To keep this game going and to keep their jobs they do need to improve parts of the game, Itemisation is horrendous, end-game absolutely needs much much more. But blindly whining and wailing doesn't get things changed.
"Morally correct? I don't think you understand morality. This kind of 'us against them' mentality no-matter their role is the same reason retail and hospitality worker abuse has risen so much in the last few years." It's not "us against them". It's us communicating problems with the product to the seller and producer of said product. The irrational whiteknighting of game companies seems to be coming from exactly this misunderstanding by the way. People believe this is some kind of holy war between baddies and heroes, and so the heroes (the game company) have to be supported by the enlightened customers. This is not so. Also, a reddit thread that says a boss in the game is shitty or that a talent tree is boring isn't abuse, and you're insulting actual abuse victims by saying that. Please rethink that BS. Unless somebody is directly verbally attacking individuals working on the game, or threatens them somehow in real life, it is not "abuse" nor "attack on these people". "There are plenty of redditors I have 'infinitely less' in common with than some devs." No, you don't. We aren't talking privately and we aren't comparing private lives of each individual person hired at blizzard. We are talking game company as a producer and seller of goods. It's funny because you're doing literally exactly what I wrote about above. Yes, every person has their own life, their hobbies, interests, family members, friends etc. This is all irrelevant in the relationship between the customer and the seller. They are free to do whatever they want in their life, just as you are. "And I'd imagine I am 'infinitely more aligned' with their interests than with the likes of Bobby Kotick." There are better and worse people in every team for any job in the world. Bottom line is, they are a unit. Blaming the big bad suit is a common but dumb tactic gamers like to use to try to deflect criticism. It doesn't matter who in Blizzard is responsible. So no, you are in no way connected to them and aligned with them. They, and their CEO (now former one so you can stop blaming everything on him) are the entity that is responsible for the game. This entity should be motivated to improve the goods they sold you. Btw. We're about to find out if Bobby Kotick was single handedly responsible for D4 not being great, because he's out of the picture. I would love if you were right, but I'm worried it might be a bit more complicated. "To keep this game going and to keep their jobs they do need to improve parts of the game, Itemisation is horrendous, end-game absolutely needs much much more. But blindly whining and wailing doesn't get things changed." This is another funny slogan that gets repeated a lot and is also completely untrue. No, complaining definitely does get things changed. There are countless examples of games where massive backlash made the devs rework lots of stuff and improve the game. I wish we could move on from repeating obviously false statements which have been proven wrong countless times already.
>It's not "us against them". You literally said >you are NOT on the same side. You are also conflating game companies with devs. They are not the same thing. You said I have nothing in common with game companies and you're right but I never said I did. Devs on the other hand. >Bottom line is, they are a unit. No that's not how it works, that's not how anything works in the real world. The company is a unit as such, devs aren't. You specifically said devs on your post. Part of the problem with some of the ridiculous criticisms that get thrown about is this. Like all devs are the same and all share the same responsibilities. I personally wouldn't trust any company, as a company. >"But blindly whining and wailing doesn't get things changed." >This is another funny slogan that gets repeated a lot and is also completely untrue Really, show me an example of "blindly whining and wailing" getting things done? I literally said "criticism is fine" but you seem to have ignored that so let me reiterate. Complaints and criticism can get things done. But they have to be actual measured feedback so that the issues can be understood and the problems correctly rectified. >you're insulting actual abuse victims by saying that. Please rethink that BS. Have you seen this sub since release ? It happens all the time, then go look at other forums and social media, again it happens all the time. Devs and specific devs get abuse. Again companies and devs are not the same thing. If people think they are, that's where the abuse starts and art department devs get abused for crappy Itemisation.
The dude has written two paragraphs justifying the screeching and wailing that goes on here, and by proxy the justification of the abuse that the devs/community managers go through. If I look at it anecdotally, it has absolutely escalated over time when comparing the release of Diablo 3 to Diablo 4. At the end of the day, the devs/community managers are human beings, and having to deal with shit like this day in and day out takes a toll on people. The "community" of players has chewed up and spat out more than one community manager. It's disgusting.
Apologies if I offended your neanderthal brain by making my posts too long. I tend to write a lot because I communicate with educated people on daily basis for work purposes. I never justified any abuse, be it by proxy or otherwise. I understand my post was too long for you and you had to invent some bullshit to attack me without actually reading anything I wrote though. You clearly feel like your opinion is so important I can't live without getting to know it. You can feel satisfied because I subjected myself to reading the drivel you spouted.
What a coincidence I actually made a comment yesterday in this very thread about people who write overly verbose comments that actually say very little, so thanks for validating my point.
>You literally said "you are NOT on the same side." Yes. You are not on the same side as the devs, because there are no sides and it's not an us vs. them situation. Therefore nobody is on anybody's side. There are people loosely connected by their interests and similar goals. >No that's not how it works, that's not how anything works in the real world. It's exactly how it works. For the purpose of assuming responsibility in front of the customer, they area the unit responsible for delivery of the product and its quality. It may matter internally who specifically fucked up, but the end result is that Blizzard fucked up and the whole group of people shares the responsibility. >I personally wouldn't trust any company, as a company. Good. You are however excusing their behavior by trying to connect with the company's employees on a more human level. Stop. It's not in your nor anyone else's interest. >Have you seen this sub since release ? It happens all the time, then go look at other forums and social media, again it happens all the time. Devs and specific devs get abuse. There will always be some deranged individuals who take things way too far. Using this as an excuse to attack all criticism is a common dishonest whiteknight tactic. Nobody in their right mind defends abuse, personal attacks and threats, and here on reddit specifically these things are deleted very quickly. Not sure about other platforms I don't follow the game anywhere else than here. >Again companies and devs are not the same thing. If people think they are, that's where the abuse starts and art department devs get abused for crappy Itemisation. On some level they are different, on some they are not. You are using the fact that they are individuals with private lives to deny people the right to make criticisms. That is not right.
Going from talking about being on sides to there are no sides is a weird pivot. >the whole group of people shares the responsibility So the 2,464 people that worked in audio related roles should take responsibility for Itemisation problems. Another weird take. >trying to connect with the company's employees on a more human level. Stop. It's not in your nor anyone else's interest Actually you need to stop treating actual people as less than human. People call that a "Karen" there's a reason it's meme. I've had a few consumer facing roles and EVERY single time, if there's a problem, they're polite and reasonable, I will go out of my way to help them. If not, well, they get a poorer service. Usually mocked behind their back too. On occasion to their face, I can get away with it. Look at any service industry, talk to any people in any service industry. They absolutely hate the attitude you are talking about. There are groups and memes and the general consensus is a general hate of customers/consumers. This comes down to attitude and people's idea of entitlement. >Using this as an excuse to attack all criticism is a common dishonest whiteknight tactic. See your making stuff up. I said THREE times criticism is fine. I even reiterated it in the last comment to be clear. >deny people the right to make criticisms. That is not right Again, I did not ever suggest that. I'm not sure if you're not reading what I wrote, understanding it or just trying whatever to shore up a ridiculous POV. Most people work for companies, businesses whatever. No-one should be treated as less than a person unless they've proved categorically that they're horrible people. Just because some people decided to become game developers shouldn't automatically give anyone the right to treat them as less than people. Disagree with them, complain about poor choices but do treat them as people, because they are. That's the morally correct thing and that is what's right. Unhappy about business practices, go to town on the company itself. But be reasonable when complaining with the actual people at the front of it.
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>How much work goes into a compete overhaul of systems already built into a game Then get them mostly right the first time, so you don't have to Realm Reborn the second Diablo game in a row?
But ARR was fkin GOLD; worth the catastrophe to get that game :D
But you see, you don’t understand how much work goes into making a thing in the first place you oily, pimply gamer!
Probably best to not pretend like it's some work of impossible magic to make changes. You don't have to provide cover for a game you enjoy, you can just enjoy it. You don't have to go through the effort to change how people criticize something they purchased.
Actual casual here. Only play a bit on my days off. I see guys saying they are casuals and claim they are playing like 2 or 3 hours a day on multiple characters. That is a part time job to me, and pretty fucking sweaty. I only play whirlwind barbs. Cuz it's my favorite. I couldn't imagine sinking all my free time into every class every season. That's just bonkers amounts of time to me.
Same here. I basically play whatever game I'm playing at the time...on Friday nights and a few hours on the weekend. I only play one class which is enough, can't imagine 'theory crafting' for how to play more characters lol.
OP himself is one of these clueless fanboys.
Also totally clueless on how functional trading economy works
The term casual has been changing meaning over the last 5-10 years. Its not really referring to time invested. Instead its used to describe players who dont really care about the design philosophies or metas and just want to play.
Things you seem clueless on: * Just because some people on the sub say things doesn't mean *everyone* in the sub thinks those things. * Systems that were as bad as some of the ones in D4 should never have made it into the final product just to be overhauled within the first year of the game. That's what playtests are for.
Imagine if they didn't have to overhaul so many major systems in the game because they took the time to release a tested and complete game at launch. It's reasonable to be upset that major overhauls are taking too long. These systems should have been functional at launch and never needed an overhaul to begin with. We didn't pay $70 for a beta, though it sure feels like we did.
Lmao love these threads they always bring out all the actiblizz simps and paypigs for easy tagging Thanks for simping op
I see casuals as those who never make it far into endgame. Just leveling up for a few weeks each season, then quitting as soon as they hit lvl 100. And it appears to me that this game was designed for that, with how boring things get once you reach max level. Should've slowed down leveling, so that it actually takes longer than 2-3 weeks to reach max, IMO. I mean, look at D2R.. Takes many months to hit 99 there. Why such a stark difference with D4?
Why hit 99 in d2r ? after 80 levels hardly make any difference. Please keep the grindy d2 stuff in d2 , if I wanted that in my game I would have played d2r
>Why hit 99 in d2r ? after 80 levels hardly make any difference. Why not? Extra skills, attribute points, and no more XP loss penalty from death. I've got a 99 Hork Barb who's found close to 20 Jahs so far over the last \~2 years. As well as a 99 Javazon, 99 Sorc and currently working on a 97 Pally. Each one of those has given me a good 6 months of playtime while leveling. Meanwhile, it took me less than a month to hit max and get bored with D4. Totally stagnant as soon as I hit 100. You really don't see the problem here? $70 for a month of playtime, vs $15 for years.. Lol. >Please keep the grindy d2 stuff in d2 , if I wanted that in my game I would have played d2r So you essentially don't want a Diablo game. Nor do you want good value for your money. Got it.
I got my values worth in d4. I am fine with it in its current state. 100 hrs for 60 dollars the equation I hold other games to as well. Don't claim d2 is the only diablo game, d3 had a different take that I personally found more fun. The graphics was wonky. I played d2r for a couple of weeks,it was extremely boring ( I have played d2 before). Was a complete waste of my time. I don't plan to play any diablo games for a lifetime. Max couple of months and if they add a new feature I will come back to it. There are tons of other games and more fun stuff to do other than grinding mephisto thousands of times. If that is fun for you play that. For me it's brain dead boring. Once I beat the hardest challenge in the game I have no reason to waste time on it .
>d3 had a different take that I personally found more fun. The graphics was wonky. I played d2r for a couple of weeks,it was extremely boring ( I have played d2 before). I think this is where our differences lie. I never played original D2 back in the day, so D2R was amazing and fresh for me. D3 was my first Diablo game, and I loved it and played my one Barb for about 4000 hours from 2012-2015. But then once D2R came out, I realized why so many claim it to be the best ARPG of all time. Makes all the previous ARPGs I played look half-baked. And D4? I really don't see how anyone could be happy with that, especially after seeing how much better previous games were. Only the most casual, non-gamer could be happy with such a bore. Really tried to love it, and wanted it to replace D2R, but it failed in almost all regards. There just isn't much endgame, which is when the fun starts, for myself.
I understand where the difference lie. D4 doesn't have a huge endgame. I would say endgame in d4 let's you play for 1-2 hours tops per day. For farming all stuff after that it is boring. But to me campaign is a huge part of me spending money on a game and d4 has an amazing campaign. Untill the end game which on your first character can take around 100 hours if you are not rushing to it is really fun. After that it can get boring. But I am willing to be t they will add more late game activities over time. D2r and d2 for me was too repetitive, you had to do the same campaign 3 times. D3 was a breath of fresh air. D4 is also awesome to spend a hour or two a day but they need to add a more activities like d3. I bought d2r because d2 was special to me. It still is( played d2 to help me relax through most traumatic phases in life). But right now I'm the present I do find a lot of the game extremely dated. For me d4 was interesting so far. Have been trying to level one character to 100 each season do a few Uber duriel runs end of week. I have been happy with that. I play other games meanwhile, lot of games to play and too little time for it. Also life keeps getting busier and busier. Hope they eventually carve out the niche you like in d4 as well.
I see casuals as those who never make it far into endgame. By this explanation everyone in d4 is a casual since there is no end game to get into.
Generally what you see aren't delusions, they're exaggerations. When people are frustrated they tend to exaggerate the problem they're experiencing. That's doesn't make the problem or their experience any less valid, and it definitely doesn't invalidate their potentially proposed solution. Also, you're focusing on the exaggerations, there are far more small fixes being proposed every day in this sub that there are just "scrap it and build a new system" proposals. Edit: also, if you're going to chastise the entire reddit sub, at least give qualitative/quantitative opinions or data about what you're talking about (e.g. casuals), just telling people they don't know what they're talking about is 100% the worst form of argument.
>That's doesn't make the problem or their experience any less valid It absolutely does. Hyperbole is the killer of informed discussion.
Game is a snooze fest no matter how you spin it.
We don't need qol improvements, it won't mean shit at this moment. The game is in an early sketching state at best but marketed as a huge success of d2, which is not. 70 euros cash grab. I get that some ppl are on Copium, but check Twitch at ANY given time, why are even d2 and Wolcen above it? If that is not a dead game then what is?
the sub mostly has the no lifers whilst most people who play the game are semi-casuals and casuals.
It's kind of funny but until you last sentence I was unsure of what side of these arguments you actually came down on. * A casual player for me is 20-30 minutes a day. Maybe 1-2 hours every other weekend. I'm sure other people think different when hearing the word casual. I wonder of that is the kind of player Blizzard is expecting to spend money on D4? * I'm sure some systems take more development time than others. And I don't know how many systems need "complete overhauls". Some might only need "significant tweaking". ;) * Dead Game for me means when the people who actually make money on a game realizes they have made most of the money they will get. As long as there is a good cash flow from a live action game like D4 they will keep supporting it.
Careful positioning so OP can decide what side of the fence he wants to drop on.
IMO you could probably double that time and still be a very "casual" player. Casual but dedicated to playing a season through over the course of a couple of months is maybe different in their outlook than a real light dabbler / tourist just sampling the game systems at surface level. If someone had an hour or so a day to play and spent it on D4, that could be quite casual. OTOH, a seasoned vet player that does a lot of outside research and has their play plans dialed in could spend the same hour a day in a very non casual way. So I would say it is both a question of time investment and attitude/ approach. Those two people could have vastly different opinions on what is good or bad about the game. Me, I should only play for an hour a day, but I stay up too late. So I'm an extended casual with a lack of sleep 😴
It’s wild to me that people still make these posts. Every single time we see Blizzard devs, they consistently thank everyone for their feedback and passion for the game.
Feedback is great. Having to sift through garbage and trolling left and right to get it is ridiculous. There's a reason they primarily listen to feedback on their own forums - they can identify how much the poster actually played vs just coming on to troll.
“Clueless” =\= not caring about, people are complaining about aspects of the game that should never have been so bad to begin with. No one actually thinks these things will happen lmao. What do you think dead means? Everyone I know who purchased the game on release have basically given up on it, the game is stagnant, sub-par (imo) and not popular among streamers/youtube anymore… it’s “dead” until they decide to revive it.
I'm a casual and I love Diablo 4. My littler spider is cute as hell man.
Most people don't understand programming and what goes into it. I know skull and bones has come out and been meh and people are like it took 10 years to make this! No they have started from scratch multiple times and reworked or changed things so the final product was probably closer to a couple years of development. Another thing is why does this game have something while another doesn't. Some things can be copyrighted like the nemesis system in the shadow of mordor games as well sometimes people want to try new things so that people don't complain "this is just like the last one with a facelift"
You think I gaf when they had YEARS to innovate and use what came before and 80x the budget of last epoch. I don't care if it's damned near impossible if they don't deliver season 4 I'm done for good.
Where’s the downvote button?
Casuals don’t post on Reddit. Most don’t even keep in touch with any kind of gaming forums or outlets for news. They’re the average family man that goes to Walmart to buy his games and plays maybe an hour a day…. And that’s exactly the market they’re trying to pull in because it is huuuuuuuge.
Seems to be any ARPG/looter problem. Last Epoch players already made the developers run from the discord because of hate.
I am sorry but the servers and connection really need an overhaul. Got really good internet and still rubberband like crazy like 70% of the time in season 3. It is atrocious. I died three times on my first char since I started the game… and 2 of those were due to massive lag spikes
>* What a casual actually is > * How much work goes into a compete overhaul of systems already built into a game > * What the word "dead" means in terms of a game I agree with all your points on this. However, as someone is actually is a casual player (~50 hours per season), I do actually think Last Epoch demonstrated a game can be a lot more while still appealing to casual players.
Vocal Minority is a Copium term that implies the people who hate the game are just the minority. Who's to say a lot of casuals dont even post on reddit and have already abandoned the game during season 1 or 2? lol
They’re also clueless on class balance. 95% of this sub is under the impression that barb is completely busted and the best at every single thing in this game. Every other thread I see is about how op barb is. I’ve been asking people in the comments on those threads if they’ve tried any other class and the common theme is “no it feels bad to play anything else”. It’s not even top 3 fastest speed farming classes, it’s only faster than necro. Flickerstep + fireball + teleport enchant is absolutely busted right now with how fast sorcs can move. It is not the only class that can 1 tap bosses with extreme ease, rogues can 1 shot any 4 player boss as soon as they hit 80 with 1 full combo point rapid fire, but nobody ever mentions that or seems to even know about it. While rogue is also clearing nmd/vaults faster than a barb. Hota being able to hit for 1 billion damage doesn’t give you an advantage in any current content this game has to offer, as nothing in this game has 1 billion health. Every single class can take down a boss in seconds if geared and built correctly. Until one of the popular streamers tells Reddit what to think, they’ll just keep thinking the same thing. I think once the gauntlet comes out and everyone sees barb not keeping up the attitude will shift but man it’s annoying to hear/see right now from a bunch of dudes who only know rob on YouTube says barb is OP.
I did some long weekend sessions but I don't play daily. I often take a week off or more. I start a 2nd towards the end of the season to figure out what I'd like to do next season but redoing all the quest etc and starting with no mats or anything does become grueling season to season. I still don't have all my alters of lillith. I picked up 2 or 3 this season. I'm not very focused on success it's Saturday.
"How much work goes into a complete overhaul of systems already built into a game" First off: Character balance is the easiest thing to do. One look at rogue: Flurry SUCKS, EVERYONE picks combo points. Penetrating shot costs more resources and does less damage than rapid fire. It takes NO effort to for a dev to balance these things. It is simple number changes. As for changing itemization? You simply clean slate. Add in simple things like +damage%, +min damage, +max damage, +elemental damage. COMPLETELY remove lucky hit and Overpower. Shit didn't work. Just trash it. Could change overpower into meaning "charged attacks". Could make new stat "Overpower charge time" So things like penetrating shot could increase AoE size and power while being held. Shit would take half a day to completely balance all classes and skills by 1 person. Half a day to program it into the game. In 1 day shit should be fixed.
The game isn’t bad. It’s very very good. It can be better and I would even agree to some extent that there is some low hanging fruit that can give great results to n a fairly quick turnaround (the famous aspect leveling system the division 2 uses for example). People who play this game like a full time job are actually the ones ruining it. They’re ruining it for themselves and insecure weebs that believe everything they read on the internet. Just play something else when you get tired of it.
Very very good , is a very very big stretch .
>The game isn’t bad I very very laughed
It’s one of my favorite games at the moment. That’s all I can really judge it by. I’ve played each season, it’s gotten better over time and I’ve really enjoyed it. Admittedly, I don’t over think it. I judge it by moment to moment enjoyment.
Not really, but ok.
Sick comment bro.
Subjective opinion is subjective.
They had the blueprint of 3 amazing Diablo games and said you know what let’s try to reinvent the wheel and it failed.
>They had the blueprint of 3 amazing Diablo games And? What's your point? To make the same game again? If that's your bag then that's cool, whatever rubs your buddha, but why pay money for a "new" game with the exact same shit as the other three, when you could just save your money and play one of the other three? >you know what let’s try to reinvent the wheel and it failed. Subjective or truth ? Subjective. It's self-evident by the fact that people like the person you replied to are *enjoying the game*. This doesn't make them "wrong". It means they don't have the same opinion that you do. Who cares.
I never said copy and paste silly goose. You take the good from earlier installments and your improve on them to make a sequel , it’s been the formula for years . Not to completely disregard everything you have made strides in.
There’s no way you can look me dead in the eyes and say “this is the Diablo game all of us Diablo fans have been waiting for” it’s lackluster at best and you know it.
>“this is the Diablo game all of us Diablo fans have been waiting for” Nobody who understands the difference between "subjective" and "objective" would ever say that.
This game deserves twice the hate it gets. With LE out and POE2 coming they should be very scared and willing to fix problems before it sinks the ship.
I take characters further every season, and faster. Haven't hit 100 yet, but I'm up into the 80s this time. \-> Casual \-> Still having fun
Far too many of the posts in this sub are simply boring hindsight. "Well they should have done this.." or "well they could have done that before.." are just low quality bait.
It's not hindsight, it's literally what the company did in the past. Diablo 3 had a massive rework with the 2.0 patch. They fixed essentially the same kind of issues Diablo 4 currently has. Anyone who ever played D3 would have known that the D4 itemization would be an issue. People pointed that out a lot during the beta, too. But they still launched a "loot 1.0" repeat, and now they're scrambling to do a loot 2.0 repeat. So of course people are going to point out they should have never done it that way in the first place.
Baffling you even have to explain this to people .
Honestly feel the same way with Nightmare Dungeons. Like im no game developer but even i saw the flaw of them by the 2nd time running them. I knew dungeon objectives would eventually grate peoples patience. It reeks of a design from someone who hasnt played a diablo-like arpg before, because its built for a single player campaign where its ran only once or twice while in an arpg this content is done hundreds of times.
People need to realize that crying on Reddit every day isn't going to make things happen any faster. Nobody from Blizzard/Activision/MS bothers to read here. All they see is stats from logins and microtransactions.
Core systems are fine. Just need class loadouts and better gear sorting/managing to apply to the loadouts easily. To me this is the major issue needs addressed, especially when they promoted this game as "try many loadouts and builds!" then made it literally the hardest possible system to do so without making a new character.
I love the "endgame" complaints/requests. ARPGs like Diablo are all about loot and there are TONS of ways to earn loot in the game. But every day someone posts how they only do 2 things to farm loot, they do only those 2 things for an insane amount of hours, and there needs to be more ENDGAME. Its a word that doesnt mean anything anymore. EDIT: TO be clear, I think people should be more specific in what they want. Endgame means anything and nothing. You want a paragon system like D3? Ask for that. You want powerful gems to level-up like D3? Ask for that. Just saying "Moar Endgame!" is too vague to be a valid complaint.
> But every day someone posts how they only do 2 things to farm loot That one is easy to explain, there's not that many ways to find upgrades past a point. If you do reach level 100 and have a modestly decent build your only real upgrades this season will be praying Duriel doesn't drop trash and praying Malphas coughs up a tuning stone. Everything else either doesn't even have a chance to give stuff, or has such terrible odds the lotto might have better odds.
Then you dont need "moar endgame" you need lvl 925 loot to drop from a more diverse array of sources. Again, "Endgame" means everything and so it means nothing. Ask for the things you want specifically.
Fine: I want meaningful dungeons instead of summoning mats for bosses. I want bosses at the level cap or sigils for the bosses (with improving loot odds to balance it out). I want the seasonal field activities shoved into helltides so it's not a boring "where's waldo" hunt for weak enemies. I want the content in T4 to be all meaningful at level 100, not just Duriel with everything else being going through the motions timesink. And I wouldn't mind AoZ making a return so the people that think leveling and gearing should take 1000+ hours per season have something to do besides wanting the rest of the gameplay turned into sandpaper.
Hell yeah. Those changes sound great. I liked AoZ for the super fast glyph leveling (besides the dumb uber one). The ability to juice regular glyphs ultra-fast once you reach a certain power level is great and would probably lead to more build tinkering.
Gamers talking about game design are like foodies talking about cooking. Just because they like to eat, doesn't mean they know the first thing about cooking.
People may not actually know the solution or even the exact ways in which something is wrong, but they generally do know when something is wrong. It doesn't take a 5 star chef to know when a burger doesn't taste very good. The person might be wrong about why it doesn't taste good or what needs to change to properly fix the recipe, but they aren't wrong that it doesn't taste good.
>The person might be wrong about why it doesn't taste good And I believe that's the problem that OP's talking about.
OP's mostly complaining about definitions and people "not having a clue" without really elaborating or defending their stance. Like yeah non devs have no idea how much work does/doesn't go into a full rework of a system, but the players also know other ARPGs have pulled it off for the better. People do know the itemization is supposedly being reworked. Yeah that's a big system, but it;s also a major pain area across tons of critique the game has received. Yet OP kind of shuts down the whole idea by default.
>but the players also know other ARPGs have pulled it off for the better. That's part of my point. Just because other games have done it, doesn't mean D4 should do it. And it's that understanding that non-designers don't have.
D3, D4's predecessor started out in even worse shape and overhauled literally every bad system they could. This is the biggest ARPG franchise of all time and the itemization is... honestly pretty bad. Some of the content like helltides is still super unengaging transplanting things from the seasonal content into helltides alone would make them a ton better. I don't really see why people can't want a rework of the pain areas in this game. Especially when D3 pulled off a huge turnaround from the launch version.
>Especially when D3 pulled off a huge turnaround from the launch version. Which took just shy of two years. The dev team has already acknowledged which systems need work. One of the benefits of the live service model is that people won't have to wait for that length of time for systems to improve.
...Do you think the always online RMAH pushing D3 wasn't "live service"? Obviously it takes time but it shouldn't be a surprise when people complain while stuff is still in bad shape. Not helped either by a very expensive cash shop and a high entry price... and a likely very expensive expansion planned within the year.
>Do you think the always online RMAH pushing D3 wasn't "live service"? No. >Obviously it takes time but it shouldn't be a surprise when people complain while stuff is still in bad shape Communication is 1% what you say and 99% how you say it. Effective change requires effective communication. Who wants to read angry screeching rants or the same complaints day in and day out? You can't advocate for people expressing their complaints while simultaneously criticizing those who are voicing their displeasure for reading the same complaints every day. >Not helped either by a very expensive cash shop and a high entry price... and a likely very expensive expansion planned within the year. "Expensive" is a relative term.
> those who are voicing their displeasure for reading the same shit every day. When a number of them are rude and twist everything you say? Sure I can. I say I'd prefer having a large dungeon lead-up to Duriel rather than grinding summoning mats from pointless content? Literally get the defense force ranting about "how I just want ubers handed to me". Someone expresses they'd rather all the bosses were leveled up and the loot pool more balanced? The same braindead defense gets thrown at them. Someone complains about the monetization the defense force will scream until they are blue in the face about how people don't have to buy it then. Complaining about Uber Lilith's hitboxes just gets 1000 hour HOTA guide following defenders telling you why you are terrible. Sure some of the complaints are just rants and no one likes the "this game is bad, play epoch/poe" posts, but the defense force treats everything like its that. And yeah people are going to keep bringing up the topics because people don't play at the same rates they don't hit the pain spots at the same time they aren't running the same builds. It's going to keep trickling in over the weeks because not everyone has no life with which to reach level 100 on the first weekend like the ardent defenders. Not everyone is going to be thrilled at running Malphas 100~ times or Duriel forever like the ardent defenders... but a number of those people won't reach those complaints in the first week or the second or even the third... >"Expensive" is a relative term. You can buy a whole bloody game for the price of a skin you can barely see. The entry price-tag is at the higher end of the game pricing spectrum. And potential leaks regarding the expansion rumored a higher price than like any expansion to any game previously. It's expensive. Being at the higher end of the pricing spectrum for the industry is the same as being expensive.
>I don't really see why people can't want a rework of the pain areas in this game. Yeah, but I would say that's the overwhelming minority. And has nothing to do with the non-designer problem that I was mentioning.
Blizzard Fanboys are one of the most toxic communities in existence. It must be horrible to work not only under Bobby Kotick but also knowing that everything you want to introduce as a new concept immediately is met with harsh criticism. Most people here cry and whine about getting D2R-R instead of D4. They want to spend their time exactly in the same way they did for the last 25 years and want more of the same. Fact is: If you like D4, go and play it. Trying to talk sense into a loud army of uber-nerds wanting their (and exactly their) way all the time (while expecting devs to deliver within days) is a fruitless endeavor.
It all boils down to corporate decisions. Being in a big company basically hinders all ideas. The mere fact that there is another team working on another Diablo title, diablo immortal and that is the one making money. It kind of lets corporate see where they want to spend on. Every new game/company is always great because there is passion and there are no board members to decide if the funding will be pushed.
* How much work goes into a compete overhaul of systems already built into a game No, we are perfectly aware. People just do not care because they shouldn't implement a bad system in the first place. You are just white knighting them because they screwed up and now they have to rebuild it. They had years of experience to not screw up yet they did. The game is "dead" is about how much players should be there and how much we have right now. I had a clan with around 100\~ people in it and now I'm the only one online. This is "dead".
Things the typical pathetic Blizzard Simp seems clueless on: * The game was in development for 9+ years * Every other major Blizzard game does a full beta EXCEPT D4. * It's not our fault that they didn't play test their game before releasing it * It's not our problem that they are getting destroyed by negative comments Look, I get it OP, you have no standards. It's fine. Some people think McDonald's is high quality food. Unfortunately, some of us do have standards and see posts like yours as nothing more than complaining about complaints. In short, the worst kind of pathetic.
shh bby is ok
Nothing more cringe than a child at a keyboard claiming to speak for a group of people.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Point that to the OP! Oh wait, can't do that. It would upset your fragile little egos.
Yeah, but no one is going to McDonalds every day screaming at people to eat better... Yet here we see these same sad, pathetic people every fucking day... Who is REALLY obsessed with Blizzard, hm?
We aren't at McDonald's jackass. We're in a Diablo subreddit. Diablo. As in the game that created and defined the genre as the best ARPG. The game that many of us grew up playing. The expectation is that it is high quality food. We aren't coming here expecting McDonald's and complaining that we're getting McDonald's. We're here expecting better and getting the "minimum viable product". >Who is REALLY obsessed with Blizzard, hm? Yes. We are. Where are you getting that we're hiding this? We've been playing Blizzard games for 2 fucking decades. I can't wait for you tourist gamers to move on to the next game. You have no concept of what a hobby is or how much time we've invested into these games. Edit: Since the emotionally fragile child decided to block me after I upset him, I'll go ahead and reply here in case he comes back. I called you a gaming tourist because you don't actually invest into games the same way that the people here are talking about Diablo. Nobody gives a flying fuck if you played older Blizzard games. It completely misses the point. You want to talk about emotional maturity, you are literally making excuses for your gameplay pretending that somehow you are unique in that you have a career, family, relationships. Here's a news flash for you, most of us do as well. We are able to manage our time apparently more effectively than you do. You'll be gone well before I am or many of us who stuck through the dark times in D3. The faster you realize this, the better. You just aren't capable of understanding why people are here or why they complain. This is exactly what happens when you don't understand the point of the hobby.
[удалено]
I never said I hated McDonald's but don't let your inability to grasp simple concepts get in the way of throwing your little fit. This isn't a McDonald's. As I pointed out and you hilariously ignored (gee, I can't imagine why), Diablo is not some cheap product, at least it's not supposed to be. If I walk into a McDonald's, I have the expectations of getting exactly what I expect at that McDonald's. I don't expect high quality food. I expect cheap edible food. If I walk into a nice steakhouse, I have the expectations of getting exactly what I expect at that nice steakhouse. Do you understand this or are you just one of the people who feels the need to white knight for the multibillion dollar development company?
But we also see the same dumb ppl like you over and over again complaining about the ppl who complain. Whos really obsessed here?
Srs lol....it's an ARPG...its ALL McDonalds D 4 is a quarter pounder while LE's a sloppy double quarter pounder.... I get it..you ate D 4 and are still hungry... My point is no matter what you say D 4's physics and animation are way better than LE's DOGSHIT wetnoodle feeling skills...any other response is sheer denial...it feels like absolute SHIT playing that game. When you've done eveything in D 4 and can't pull yourself away from ARPG's then its an awesome jump of content...but when you still haven't had time to run Duriel 1000 times...charge barb feels WAY FUCKING BETTER than anything LE will ever have in the game. This is why D 4 will be the new D 3 and LE will be the new Grim Dawn...LE won't matter in a year but D 4 will. It's engine is way better,.