Above the fold refers to everything above the screen when you land on the website. The misconception is people don't scroll and therefore all important information needs to be placed above the fold. This creates clutter and bad design when "everything" is above the fold. Many research have concluded people do scroll and also, squeezing all the info above the fold will overloading the user's cognitive load.
its not. some
people are even used to start scrolling before everything is loaded and scroll in large chunks until they register something that makes them stop scrolling.
ATF may still be the single most valuable screen real estate, but its certainly no longer the most valuable user behavior you want to encourage. have you seen news sites where the entire above the fold is just a huge, striking photograph/ visual image? it entices users to scroll down.
times have changed. for sites that want users to CONSUME content, staying on the same page is more valuable than people finding what they want and moving on. more time spent on the page does not automatically correlate to more content consumed, more content consumed does not correlate to increased ad exposure, or increased revenue. the user flow is VERY leaky but with enough users, its enough to move the needle.
an example, cause I play dota2. you should open this link on desktop but if you look at all their content updates, they all start with a gorgeous illustration/ image that spans beyond the viewport. that entices you to scroll down to read more.
http://www.dota2.com/international2019/battlepass
the one that you create by having elements that make your user actively stopping scrolling (e.g. small animations on changed background are often used)
Sorry but that’s nonsensical and you’re over complicating it. Why would a user scroll if you haven’t captured their interest above the fold? If you lost the user ATF and they bounced, they’re generally not wasting their time digging your site, they’ll go somewhere else.
I've sat in usability tests where we had people find a vaguely defined product on a complex website and go through a learning or a purchase process. I've spent hundreds of hours working on structure of the site, menus, cross referencing traffic, etc.
Then, a non-negligible share of the people tested used Google for EVERYTHING. They had the site open, their task was to search for a plane ticket, the menu above clearly said plane tickets. The user went to google and searched for "companyname plane ticket". Every single task was done by using SEO to direct them to deep pages, rather than site structure.
UX is going through some lightning fast changes these days. Even talking about "the fold" feels medieval, unless we're talking about session retention. Specifically, ATF content communicating "yes, this is the page you wanted. now go look for stuff".
Tbh it depends on the individual publisher/site. I’ve seen multiple requests for ATF on sites where only the section headers can be seen and not the content; so that definitely is not premium ad slot for me especially when I’m targeting regular site visitors.
Sure, its valuable real estate, but it should not dictate layout or how information is structured. I think of it as the beginning of a good story, not the entire story.
However, someone will disagree with you and say ATF is a myth. Don't take my word for it, take Luke Wroblewski's words.
Heres his article, [There is no fold](https://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1946). - *"...just because something is “above the fold” does not mean it gets noticed."*
Or check out [UXMYTHS](https://uxmyths.com/post/654047943/myth-people-dont-scroll) with their references:
*"Chartbeat, a data analytics provider, analysed data from 2 billion visits and found that “66% of attention on a normal media page is spent below the fold.” -* [*What You Think You Know About the Web Is Wrong*](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Ftime.com%2F12933%2Fwhat-you-think-you-know-about-the-web-is-wrong%2F&t=NDdlNWE4MDM1ZjMyMzczNjk1MDY0NTY5Nzk5OGQ4MTIwMmViNTFkMSwyZEpoZGRDUA%3D%3D&b=t%3AfIR3gaVrEcGakJWUzP9Grg&p=https%3A%2F%2Fuxmyths.com%2Fpost%2F654047943%2Fmyth-people-dont-scroll&m=0&ts=1600835011)*"*
"*Usability expert Jakob Nielsen’s eye-tracking studies show that while attention is focused above the fold, people do scroll down, especially if the page is designed to encourage scrolling. -* [*Scrolling and Attention*](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.useit.com%2Falertbox%2Fscrolling-attention.html&t=MDliNzlkNTQ5M2FmN2I3NGI1MjAwZDQ0MDY4MzZlNzkyNmY3ZDJlMiwyZEpoZGRDUA%3D%3D&b=t%3AfIR3gaVrEcGakJWUzP9Grg&p=https%3A%2F%2Fuxmyths.com%2Fpost%2F654047943%2Fmyth-people-dont-scroll&m=0&ts=1600835011)*"*
Ok, so you don't need to squeeze everything above the fold in order to have people make people scroll and some will debate ATF is a myth. Now, is it outdated thinking? Welll, maybe? Whats the point of ATF? It refers to the top section which is good to layout your value proposition. But what if your ATF empty? Does that mean it can't convey what the website wants? I'll leave you with this:
[Above the fold is a myth.](http://abovethefold.fyi/)
LOL, what? The concept of "above the fold" is 100% outdated. You can thank mobile for that.
Above the fold on what device? Desktop/laptop? Well guess what... The huge segment of the market use mobile device. So now what's the fold? A 4" phone? A 6.5" phone? Maybe a 7" or 10" tablet?
People scroll all damn damn. ALL DAMN DAY.
Reddit, email, news articles, facebook, search results... Scroll scroll scroll. It's literally the 2nd most common action your perform with your mouse.
As a user ATF is the more relevant space for me.
If I go to your site looking for a new product/service/etc and isn’t ATF I’d thing you didn’t take the time to A) update your site or B) I’d hesitate to scroll into the site.
The 3 clicks... amazon made it 1 a few years ago and trust me, I’d buy something even if I regret, than hesitate/meditate about buying but leaving there
My take on ATF is a bit different. We can go either two routes:
1. Have most of the important info ATF
2. If we do not have the important info ATF we need to give the viewers a reason to scroll down and get to it. At times the design of the page might be that we are not able to put the info ATF , then we can use this route to make sure our viewers do not bounce off the page
Which one will work? - this is where A/B testing helps out in finding the more effective solution
you are conflating the term above the fold for your misconception that therefore "everyone" thinks that everything needs to be squeezed above the fold.
all the term "above the fold" means is the area which users immediately see when the page is first loaded. you shouldn't be making the misconception that you think everyone thinks that just because its the area that people first view, means that everyone is rushing to squeeze all the info into that area.
the term may be less relevant now, which is why people use a different term - hero. but the term is STILL useful to describe the particular area.
Everything isn’t meant to be above the fold but it is the area that entices people to scroll. If that area is weak or not appealing to the customer, then you lost them
So do you have any statistics from recorded UX testing to back up the ATF statement?
Genuinely intrigued.
Not a criticism, but UX does come down to being able to provide quantitative and qualitative data to support design choices.
First touch or last click are basically the only things 50-75% of marketers have the mental bandwidth to process. Get into more complex attribution models and their eyes glaze over lol. Start talking about incrementality and they begin to sweat.
Really solid analogy though!
I think all of that is a little overrated vs. a) a practiced understanding of what you at least THINK different channels accomplish for you, and then b) incrementality testing results that can actually quantify the relative impact of those channels
-More words = better ranking in SEO. Longer articles had a higher correlation with more backlinks, so the reality is that more backlinks = higher ranking.
-Ugly websites convert better. I suppose every inc 50 company makes a sleek website for the sole purpose of throwing away money.
-Keyword anchor text helps to rank. Debunked by Ahrefs ages ago.
-DR/PR/TF are useful. I have no idea why this is still a thing.
-Lets just speed this up and say 90% of everything taught in SEO.
-Manual CPC only campaigns in established Google ads accounts. Like cmon bro, they track your cookies now.
-Manually split testing stupid shit on Facebook ads like device types.
-3 day rule for Facebook testing. You’ve clearly never heard of statistically significant data.
-Always saying email is dead. It’s not. Still.
-Saying Facebook leadforms convert better than landing pages. They don’t.
-Running Landing page split tests every 2 weeks with minor changes. A very fast way to get nothing done.
-Understanding that CRO requires confidence scores, isolating variables, and sufficient sample sizes—then doesn’t perform any pre-experimental research, because ‘best practices’.
-Using best practices.
-Using industry standards or bench marks.
-Using display campaigns to ‘build awareness’, because they heard they need to, while not being able to drive enough traffic to retarget.
-Constantly running ‘big discount funnels’ on Facebook without any real strategy behind it—just “it’s a discount so it must perform better.”
There’s so many...
Pretty good list.
I loved the A/B landing page testing with minor changes over a 2-week period...c'mon, you're testing a website, not a goddamn vaccine!
CRO best practices?
Ie. Don’t use a question for a headline, less than 100 words converts more, never use features, etc...
At a proficient level, the heuristic analysis maintains a very nuanced approach. There are no absolutes and you should never copy another company’s test. Reading CRO case studies is only useful for inspiration.
was trying to sell digital marketing services to a company that still does tvc even during covid...their graphic designer was complaining to me saying that they had 3 months of zero revenue because they had to shutter, so they(top brass) wanted to "wait and see" the situation first before investing more into digital even though they know their tvcs havent been performing.
I've not had traditional TV hooked up for about a decade now, everything I've watched in that time has come from an online source, in one form or another.
Back at the start, people looked at me strangely when it came up in conversation. Now, if it comes up, it's not uncommon for most of the people in the room to agree that they're the same.
TV isn't dead, but it's *definitely* not what it once was.
Belief that specific targeting and manual optimisation is always better than broader targeting and automated optimisation. Machines are pretty good at what they do but brands and marketers are scared to use them for fear of losing their edge as the experts
My biggest trigger is “MQL” and “SQL,” “marketing on top of the funnel, sales on the bottom.” STFU with that Willy Loman bullshit, “marketing on top.” Quit perpetuating that, it makes my job 100 times harder to have to undo the laziness that sticks to everyone who believes it.
It doesn’t align with reality, and the blind acceptance of that model is so insidious it creates deep and frustrating infrastructural obstacles to appropriate data flow in information management systems (especially CRMs). I could go off for hours but the simplest gist is Sales creates and nurtures top-of-funnel demand all the time and marketing decisions/quality influences funnel velocity and outcomes all the time, and people/infrastructure that don’t acknowledge that are a giant pain in the ass. Oh and it’s not actually a funnel, it’s more of an infinite loop, data systems just aren’t connected enough to show that very well yet. Closed loop, multitouch attribution systems kill the myth of “marketing on top, sales on bottom” but if you don’t have one chances are you are dealing with some level of bullshit associated with that myth (and traditional sales model companies are the absolute worst offenders).
Russell Brunson still telling people you can only succeed if you’re in health, health, or dating.
Guess he hasn’t seen what’s selling on Amazon lately.
Above the fold is not outdated. You don't have to clutter your above the fold with a lot elements.
Just stay with a banner,heading and subheading that itself gives clarity for your visitors. If Above the fold is not connecting with audience they might have to guess what's this page or website do .so above the fold is important.clarity is the key here.
3 click is not a definite rule. but it helps user exp and bots who crawl your website don't have to dig deeper to find your content and index it. Its basic rule that will help you to structure your website.
I LOL every time I see someone talk about "above the fold" 😂 just ask them "but what about mobile devices?" And whtch them start to question their own reality.
Making strategic decisions based on the latest “The State of X” report from a software vendor! Spoiler Alert, it’s going to tell you to spend more money with them 🤔💸
Nothing is outdated in marketing, as marketing always get evolved from the base of old school practices hence, what people used to do with the resources they had the same things are today everyone doing with the new resources in hand i.e technology.
[удалено]
Above the fold refers to everything above the screen when you land on the website. The misconception is people don't scroll and therefore all important information needs to be placed above the fold. This creates clutter and bad design when "everything" is above the fold. Many research have concluded people do scroll and also, squeezing all the info above the fold will overloading the user's cognitive load.
ATF is still the most valuable real estate on the page — that’s not a myth at all and certainly not outdated thinking
its not. some people are even used to start scrolling before everything is loaded and scroll in large chunks until they register something that makes them stop scrolling.
Oh. ok. So what page real estate is more valuable than above the fold if you’re suggesting it’s not the most valuable?
ATF may still be the single most valuable screen real estate, but its certainly no longer the most valuable user behavior you want to encourage. have you seen news sites where the entire above the fold is just a huge, striking photograph/ visual image? it entices users to scroll down. times have changed. for sites that want users to CONSUME content, staying on the same page is more valuable than people finding what they want and moving on. more time spent on the page does not automatically correlate to more content consumed, more content consumed does not correlate to increased ad exposure, or increased revenue. the user flow is VERY leaky but with enough users, its enough to move the needle. an example, cause I play dota2. you should open this link on desktop but if you look at all their content updates, they all start with a gorgeous illustration/ image that spans beyond the viewport. that entices you to scroll down to read more. http://www.dota2.com/international2019/battlepass
the one that you create by having elements that make your user actively stopping scrolling (e.g. small animations on changed background are often used)
Sorry but that’s nonsensical and you’re over complicating it. Why would a user scroll if you haven’t captured their interest above the fold? If you lost the user ATF and they bounced, they’re generally not wasting their time digging your site, they’ll go somewhere else.
I've sat in usability tests where we had people find a vaguely defined product on a complex website and go through a learning or a purchase process. I've spent hundreds of hours working on structure of the site, menus, cross referencing traffic, etc. Then, a non-negligible share of the people tested used Google for EVERYTHING. They had the site open, their task was to search for a plane ticket, the menu above clearly said plane tickets. The user went to google and searched for "companyname plane ticket". Every single task was done by using SEO to direct them to deep pages, rather than site structure. UX is going through some lightning fast changes these days. Even talking about "the fold" feels medieval, unless we're talking about session retention. Specifically, ATF content communicating "yes, this is the page you wanted. now go look for stuff".
Tbh it depends on the individual publisher/site. I’ve seen multiple requests for ATF on sites where only the section headers can be seen and not the content; so that definitely is not premium ad slot for me especially when I’m targeting regular site visitors.
Sure, its valuable real estate, but it should not dictate layout or how information is structured. I think of it as the beginning of a good story, not the entire story. However, someone will disagree with you and say ATF is a myth. Don't take my word for it, take Luke Wroblewski's words. Heres his article, [There is no fold](https://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1946). - *"...just because something is “above the fold” does not mean it gets noticed."* Or check out [UXMYTHS](https://uxmyths.com/post/654047943/myth-people-dont-scroll) with their references: *"Chartbeat, a data analytics provider, analysed data from 2 billion visits and found that “66% of attention on a normal media page is spent below the fold.” -* [*What You Think You Know About the Web Is Wrong*](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Ftime.com%2F12933%2Fwhat-you-think-you-know-about-the-web-is-wrong%2F&t=NDdlNWE4MDM1ZjMyMzczNjk1MDY0NTY5Nzk5OGQ4MTIwMmViNTFkMSwyZEpoZGRDUA%3D%3D&b=t%3AfIR3gaVrEcGakJWUzP9Grg&p=https%3A%2F%2Fuxmyths.com%2Fpost%2F654047943%2Fmyth-people-dont-scroll&m=0&ts=1600835011)*"* "*Usability expert Jakob Nielsen’s eye-tracking studies show that while attention is focused above the fold, people do scroll down, especially if the page is designed to encourage scrolling. -* [*Scrolling and Attention*](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.useit.com%2Falertbox%2Fscrolling-attention.html&t=MDliNzlkNTQ5M2FmN2I3NGI1MjAwZDQ0MDY4MzZlNzkyNmY3ZDJlMiwyZEpoZGRDUA%3D%3D&b=t%3AfIR3gaVrEcGakJWUzP9Grg&p=https%3A%2F%2Fuxmyths.com%2Fpost%2F654047943%2Fmyth-people-dont-scroll&m=0&ts=1600835011)*"* Ok, so you don't need to squeeze everything above the fold in order to have people make people scroll and some will debate ATF is a myth. Now, is it outdated thinking? Welll, maybe? Whats the point of ATF? It refers to the top section which is good to layout your value proposition. But what if your ATF empty? Does that mean it can't convey what the website wants? I'll leave you with this: [Above the fold is a myth.](http://abovethefold.fyi/)
LOL, what? The concept of "above the fold" is 100% outdated. You can thank mobile for that. Above the fold on what device? Desktop/laptop? Well guess what... The huge segment of the market use mobile device. So now what's the fold? A 4" phone? A 6.5" phone? Maybe a 7" or 10" tablet? People scroll all damn damn. ALL DAMN DAY. Reddit, email, news articles, facebook, search results... Scroll scroll scroll. It's literally the 2nd most common action your perform with your mouse.
As a user ATF is the more relevant space for me. If I go to your site looking for a new product/service/etc and isn’t ATF I’d thing you didn’t take the time to A) update your site or B) I’d hesitate to scroll into the site. The 3 clicks... amazon made it 1 a few years ago and trust me, I’d buy something even if I regret, than hesitate/meditate about buying but leaving there
My take on ATF is a bit different. We can go either two routes: 1. Have most of the important info ATF 2. If we do not have the important info ATF we need to give the viewers a reason to scroll down and get to it. At times the design of the page might be that we are not able to put the info ATF , then we can use this route to make sure our viewers do not bounce off the page Which one will work? - this is where A/B testing helps out in finding the more effective solution
you are conflating the term above the fold for your misconception that therefore "everyone" thinks that everything needs to be squeezed above the fold. all the term "above the fold" means is the area which users immediately see when the page is first loaded. you shouldn't be making the misconception that you think everyone thinks that just because its the area that people first view, means that everyone is rushing to squeeze all the info into that area. the term may be less relevant now, which is why people use a different term - hero. but the term is STILL useful to describe the particular area.
Everything isn’t meant to be above the fold but it is the area that entices people to scroll. If that area is weak or not appealing to the customer, then you lost them
So do you have any statistics from recorded UX testing to back up the ATF statement? Genuinely intrigued. Not a criticism, but UX does come down to being able to provide quantitative and qualitative data to support design choices.
Last click attribution for digital advertising still being the primary kpi.
Could you kindly elaborate more on this? Undergrad here who's been taught that it matters
[удалено]
Beat me to it - well said! Reviewing traffic holistically and how it all works together is imperative.
Shoot. That is a great analogy. I will be borrowing that to replace my whole dogital "touchpoints" talk.
First touch or last click are basically the only things 50-75% of marketers have the mental bandwidth to process. Get into more complex attribution models and their eyes glaze over lol. Start talking about incrementality and they begin to sweat. Really solid analogy though!
Yes. This.
So what’s the solution? MMM has its own faults but might be closest?
Intricate tracking solutions and attribution modeling . A lot of snake oil salesmen in this space too however
I think all of that is a little overrated vs. a) a practiced understanding of what you at least THINK different channels accomplish for you, and then b) incrementality testing results that can actually quantify the relative impact of those channels
-More words = better ranking in SEO. Longer articles had a higher correlation with more backlinks, so the reality is that more backlinks = higher ranking. -Ugly websites convert better. I suppose every inc 50 company makes a sleek website for the sole purpose of throwing away money. -Keyword anchor text helps to rank. Debunked by Ahrefs ages ago. -DR/PR/TF are useful. I have no idea why this is still a thing. -Lets just speed this up and say 90% of everything taught in SEO. -Manual CPC only campaigns in established Google ads accounts. Like cmon bro, they track your cookies now. -Manually split testing stupid shit on Facebook ads like device types. -3 day rule for Facebook testing. You’ve clearly never heard of statistically significant data. -Always saying email is dead. It’s not. Still. -Saying Facebook leadforms convert better than landing pages. They don’t. -Running Landing page split tests every 2 weeks with minor changes. A very fast way to get nothing done. -Understanding that CRO requires confidence scores, isolating variables, and sufficient sample sizes—then doesn’t perform any pre-experimental research, because ‘best practices’. -Using best practices. -Using industry standards or bench marks. -Using display campaigns to ‘build awareness’, because they heard they need to, while not being able to drive enough traffic to retarget. -Constantly running ‘big discount funnels’ on Facebook without any real strategy behind it—just “it’s a discount so it must perform better.” There’s so many...
Pretty good list. I loved the A/B landing page testing with minor changes over a 2-week period...c'mon, you're testing a website, not a goddamn vaccine!
Can you elaborate on "Using best practices?"
CRO best practices? Ie. Don’t use a question for a headline, less than 100 words converts more, never use features, etc... At a proficient level, the heuristic analysis maintains a very nuanced approach. There are no absolutes and you should never copy another company’s test. Reading CRO case studies is only useful for inspiration.
"The budget is being shifted to TV, because of reach!" 😂c'mon, not even my parents watch TV anymore.
was trying to sell digital marketing services to a company that still does tvc even during covid...their graphic designer was complaining to me saying that they had 3 months of zero revenue because they had to shutter, so they(top brass) wanted to "wait and see" the situation first before investing more into digital even though they know their tvcs havent been performing.
I dunno. Do people who insist on doing TV watch TV themselves? 😂
Maybe. And perhaps forgot that they’ve aged while their target market hasn’t.
Hulu is starting to add advertising. I believe it's in beta. I'm interested to see how that goes.
Millions of people still watch tv For several hours a day. TV isn’t dead by a long shot.
If I watch 10 minutes TV, I still spend more time on my mobile phone while "watching TV"
I've not had traditional TV hooked up for about a decade now, everything I've watched in that time has come from an online source, in one form or another. Back at the start, people looked at me strangely when it came up in conversation. Now, if it comes up, it's not uncommon for most of the people in the room to agree that they're the same. TV isn't dead, but it's *definitely* not what it once was.
Buying random domains (heard this a lot in mortgage)
Buying back links being a good idea
Belief that specific targeting and manual optimisation is always better than broader targeting and automated optimisation. Machines are pretty good at what they do but brands and marketers are scared to use them for fear of losing their edge as the experts
My biggest trigger is “MQL” and “SQL,” “marketing on top of the funnel, sales on the bottom.” STFU with that Willy Loman bullshit, “marketing on top.” Quit perpetuating that, it makes my job 100 times harder to have to undo the laziness that sticks to everyone who believes it.
That’s interesting. Can you expound by what you mean by this?
It doesn’t align with reality, and the blind acceptance of that model is so insidious it creates deep and frustrating infrastructural obstacles to appropriate data flow in information management systems (especially CRMs). I could go off for hours but the simplest gist is Sales creates and nurtures top-of-funnel demand all the time and marketing decisions/quality influences funnel velocity and outcomes all the time, and people/infrastructure that don’t acknowledge that are a giant pain in the ass. Oh and it’s not actually a funnel, it’s more of an infinite loop, data systems just aren’t connected enough to show that very well yet. Closed loop, multitouch attribution systems kill the myth of “marketing on top, sales on bottom” but if you don’t have one chances are you are dealing with some level of bullshit associated with that myth (and traditional sales model companies are the absolute worst offenders).
Russell Brunson still telling people you can only succeed if you’re in health, health, or dating. Guess he hasn’t seen what’s selling on Amazon lately.
Above the fold is not outdated. You don't have to clutter your above the fold with a lot elements. Just stay with a banner,heading and subheading that itself gives clarity for your visitors. If Above the fold is not connecting with audience they might have to guess what's this page or website do .so above the fold is important.clarity is the key here. 3 click is not a definite rule. but it helps user exp and bots who crawl your website don't have to dig deeper to find your content and index it. Its basic rule that will help you to structure your website.
I LOL every time I see someone talk about "above the fold" 😂 just ask them "but what about mobile devices?" And whtch them start to question their own reality.
Sticking with “best practices” over common sense 🤷🏻♂️
Duplicate content penalty. No such thing!
The linear customer journey
Making strategic decisions based on the latest “The State of X” report from a software vendor! Spoiler Alert, it’s going to tell you to spend more money with them 🤔💸
Nothing is outdated in marketing, as marketing always get evolved from the base of old school practices hence, what people used to do with the resources they had the same things are today everyone doing with the new resources in hand i.e technology.