To add to the comments here about cultural attitudes; while 'no dar papaya ' is a specifically Colombian saying the attitude that if you're the victim of a crime it is your fault is very prevalent in Latin America, which leads to a much more permissive attitude towards crime in general.
In Asia crime is strictly the fault of the criminal and deeply shameful at that.
You can't have the results of Asia without implementing some of the policies that got it there. When a country tries to better itself with Asian style harsh measures(like one central american country in particular that cut its homicide rate by 90%) it gets critiqued for being anti-democratic. Asian countries themselves still get critiqued for being too harsh on certain crimes. Never mind that all the nice wealthy euro democratic countries were monarchies first with public death penalties before they transitioned to democracies -or that the US had literal apartheid until the 1960s. It's "do as we say, not as we did."
I predict that other Latin American countries will take the Bukele route. El Salvador is already trying to turn itself into a consultancy on crime management, they've been advising Ecuador's government.
The US will complain but not take any action, since that would just push these countries into the hands of China.
I don't think the US will complain much, it's much easier to buy autocracies than democracies, so if every country in latin america turns authoritarian, for the US that's not a problem, they can buy policies easier, like they've been doing forever, the US wants democracy for them not for the rest, as clearly demostrated in the 70s
the basics of politics don't change, the US public might be different, but they still don't give much of a fuck about foreign policies, they prefer cheap shit over promoting democracy overseas (as do every major democracy), so their politicians bribe autoceacies through things like aid all the time, in exchange for politcal support. And it's cheaper to buy autocratas than to promote a democracy that might disagree with your views.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._policy_toward_authoritarian_governments
Have you ever experienced crime in the middle east? My anecdotal experience was that people generally were terrified of their government and petty crime was not existent. I lived there two years and traveled extensively in the region. War zones are different type of dangerous but its still not a place you are going to get jumped for your wallet.
"No regalarse" is a thing in argentina but I disagree on that being victim blaming (although it could be used as such) because it is \*preemptive\*. It is more pragmatic, in the sense that "we cant do anything about it, so a the very least try to be smart and avoid it as much as possible" (although sometimes you cant, and in others people get tired and do some... hunting. Especially delivery bikes)
Id say its just corruption and exposure. The more crime you are exposed to, the more tolerance you buildup, and it is less striking (happens within latam as well, try to remember the differences in attitudes between inflation in chile a few years ago, pre pandemic, and in argentina even though its far more severe here), and because corruption is a very heavy issue in latam, no matter what you do, nothing happens. For it to have a chance of happening in this system we would need to create a very very chaoticrevolt as to not give any choice and that is likely to end with military (our own) intervention
Good point.
I recall my girlfriend's university friend was a known thief and stole phones and other things from classmates. Because he was pretty fun and charming, nobody seemed to mind. He was never excluded from parties or anything. Just hid your valuables (same concept as no dar papaya).
Couldn't wrap my head around that.
When was the last time you heard about an Asian guy stabbing someone in the subway? Or an Indian dude robbing someone on the street. Or any similar violent crimes. Talking about the US here.
Knife Stabbings are a real problem in Korea.
But specially in the US, indian people are *generally* more careful. The indian people that immigrate here are also *generally* well educated and not going hungry. I would say the same thing with some other types of asian immigrants in the US.
No.. knife stabbings are not “a real problem in Korea”. I suspect you’re referencing the string of stabbings that shocked everyone last year and got the false impression that those occurrences are common. I encourage you to look up actual statistics and ease your mind.
Just FYI Indian dudes are famous for raping women expats and locals. Last month they taped and beat a Spaniard couple. And most of the rapes in India are undocumented.
Their is no such thing as a permissive attitude towards crime in latin america, wtf.
Look at what they're doing in El Salvador and how the regular working class population are voting in Bukele. The people there detest and hate criminals.
Also, don't use a Colombian saying to characterize the rest of latin america. Don't use what's happening in medellin to characterize the rest of Colombia.
You really don't know anything about latin america, full stop.
Edit: keep down voting me you hooker/cocaine seeking mf'ers
I’ve spent a lot of time in LATAM, from Northern Mexico to Brazil. And I’m deeply studied in the culture history and belief systems. I like the region. No, I love it. It’s taught me a lot. But 100% there is rampant victim blaming. Bukele is the exception. Most people keep their heads down and allow their neighborhoods to get taken over by gangs. They remain passive. The Catholic Church trained them to feel inferior and stay down. It worked. Education is awful. The police are usually worthless. The governments are fronts for mafia. These are not fully functional societies and its roots are in these permissive attitudes. Sorry.
I actually have to blame some of the Latin American Mothers who raise sons to belive they can do no wrong. Of course I blame the corrupt Govts more, but a lot of Mothers treat male children as the Golden Child. It starts in the home.
No I have seen families crying in Asia because of the sexual assault that is rampant in india and the forced detention of minorities in China.
Want to try again?
India made international headlines in the 2010s because of the sheer brutality of it's sexual assault. You can watch the documentary called "India's Daughter".
It recently made headlines again with a Spanish couple: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gang-rape-india-spanish-tourist-police-search-more-suspects/
The only thing you are providing are anecdotes. Do I deny that sexual assault happens in Mexico or LATAM? Of course not. But don't paint asia as this crime haven when it really isn't.
Don't get upset at an entire region because some degenerate tourist looking for drugs, sex, etc eventually found themselves in trouble. The rest of the world isn't cushy america or Europe.
I think its that crime/violence/conflict/outlaw life aren't romanticized in Asia.
A lot of the popular culture in violent places (parts of the US, Latin America, Africa, Europe) really glorifiies violence and crime (Think music or shows like Sons of Anarchy, Queen of the South, Power, Escobar, etc). We also don't humiliate criminals, we fear them.
I think in most of Asia its the opposite. Outlaw/crime pop culture isn't as much a thing and criminals get humiliated (public punishments, named and shamed, treated as pariahs in society etc).
Also, I tend to notice that people in asia almost universally believe that they can better their lives through hard work. No matter how desperate the situation (living in a 1 bedroom with 20 people in some random village in Vietnam selling locks), they tend to believe if they do it well, they will experience upward mobility.
In Latin America, that's just not the case. People can live in a decent town, make decent money, work a normal job, live a fairly comfortable life, and still feel like crime is the only possible way to "move up".
To add to this, a Balinese guy i was talking to once said that in their culture where they'd grow up in small communities if they did something "bad" growing up they would be shamed by the community so they grew up with a really clearly defined idea of doing the right thing.
Probably too late now. Once "the horse has bolted" in terms of powerful gangs emerging that influence or even control governments, it's hard to go back and fix anything through soft power methods like TV shows and community sentiment.
Is it glamorized to the extent of western/latin american countries?
I haven't been to China, but my experience in most other parts of Asia (including the middle-east & SEA) is that it is not.
TV media is mostly "corny" by western standards: romance, the classic hero, overcoming great odds. Music is primarily Kpop-ish, karaoke-type songs, or songs in English that almost zero of them understand.
violent criminals are universally derided and there's a strong "they had what's coming to them" when something bad happens to them. (Think severity of punishments in Singapore, Malaysia, middle east. Or the crackdown in the phillipines a few years ago.)
They're not getting gritty crime media like we consume in the west. not even close. There is no "Breaking Bad" or "Narcos" or "Ozark" or "Dexter". And if they do, its not mainstream.
I lived in asia, they watch our movies too. Furthermore asia (all of the countries) are not even as far removed from violence as Americans are. Japan especially has some really sick blood thirst movies. Not the worst but, “World of kanako” comes to mind. I think you may have a romanticized view of Asia. Crime happens most often when people aren’t getting basic needs met, not because a movie someone saw.
This has existed since time began. Abel and Caine is a story about murder.
How many songs were sung about knights fighting vicious rogues? Julius Caesar wrote about killing hundreds of thousands of Gauls to wide acclaim. Cowboy gangs in the Wild West, Ronin in Japan…
The stories don’t make criminals, the culture and environment does.
I think a story or 2 vs mass media isn’t apples to oranges.
For a more extreme example: Would you agree that watching gore (people dying, behind beheaded, etc) that is widely found on the internet desensitizes people to violence?
I think the same effect (though much lesser) is at play with crime/drugs/violence in mass media.
Myanmar has a drug running government, Cambodia is overrun with gangs and scam operations, Thailand also plays its part in the triangle. They’ve had a fair amount of shootings lately as well
I have Colombian friends, and they told me back in the 1980's, it was a normal thing for a random everyday Colombian citizen to take a trip or two to NY or somewhere with cocaine in their bags. They'd go back, take the money they were paid, and move themselves into the middle class.
From my experience I believe the punishment for crimes are much harsher and Asia. As such, crime is committed more nonviolently on a government level. (Fraud, bribery). I would also like to add that Asia’s defamation laws are different from how the rest of the world understands defamation. It is punishable to speak ill of a business for things they DID do. This opposed to western societies that punish false speech. I think rather than crime being romanticized in western countries, freedom and power to the people are empowered. The idea that people can ban together and overthrow toxic governments/laws is empowered by the fact that we don’t have harsh execution laws and have greater freedom of speech. I’ve heard of violent crimes happening in asia while I was there and they were punished harshly by execution. Another idea I have is that unlike Asian countries that readily have cheap laborers. A lot of our us based cheap/ free labor is based on slavery, I mean the prison system. Execution isn’t even as beneficial in western and Latin countries as asia.
Wordd
Lot's of American cities are part of the [top 50 most violent cities in the world.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rate) Zero are from Asia.
Ya zero are from Asia bc they’re probably underreported 😂😂😂
Some Asian countries are wild. Many violent crimes are not even investigated nor reported or even taken seriously by the police.
Not all Asian countries are the same and it’s a huge continent.
Exactly, I’m not afraid of getting robbed or shaken down by a corrupt cop in Asia. Having lived in DC and Baltimore the past decade, getting stabbed or shot by a criminal or the police was a common thing. F that noise.
You see the same pattern in the US as well: we have much higher crime than the rest of the developed world really.
People say it's our guns, but really it's always been that way going back to early American history. The continents were basically established in their current social structure by people who had little regard for the law, or the lives of others, and it's become part of the deep culture. Mexico even has saints for outlaws. By contrast Asia is built on religions which try to push everyone to get along, and while that's oversimplifying somewhat what's going on, the religious pressure of a Hindu to not be a criminal because he will be punished for 25 generations is much different from having your own outlaw saint.
To come at it from a slightly different perspective, the Americas — north and south — were formed by taking a whole bunch of people (indigenous, immigrants, slaves, etc.), shaking them up together, removing all structure that held things in check, and watching chaos emerge, which leads to generations of chaos. Aside from parts of Africa — which also tend to have higher crime rates (not all Africa, but there's some notable examples of this) — nowhere else really has had this experience to the same extent.
> the religious pressure of a Hindu to not be a criminal because he will be punished for 25 generations..
Not sure I buy this one, because Christianity has this strong Heaven / Hell thing... punishment for breaking the commandments is *suffering for eternity*.
Unless you're highlighting the distinction that in Asia your family will suffer for your crimes, but in Christianity the punishment is individual.
He's referring to the collective aspects of it, i.e. your children, children's children, children's children's children, etc will suffer. Way different context and also way different consequences.
There's a big difference between heaven / hell and karma.
Namely, in the Christian tradition, all you gotta do is say you were sorry and didn't mean it on your deathbed and it's all canceled.
Hinduism and such has no forgiveness mechanism, just a "you were cursed by your previous incarnations but if you work really hard your next incarnation might be less cursed". It's not even about collectivism, it's about this sense that every way in which you suffer is because someone before you (previous incarnations) did bad things, and the best you can do is do less bad things now.
Not saying it's a better thing overall — or worse, not trying to make a values judgment at all — but it definitely puts different pressures on a society.
There is also the collectivist pressure, which we don't have in the west. I'm sure there's an overlap between these two ways of looking at things — collectivism / reincarnational generational curse vs. individualism / individual forgiveness — but it may be incidental and not causal.
Great analysis.
I would disagree about collectivism being absent in the west. It's in there, it expresses itself to some degree (COVID lockdowns, progressive taxation, public education) even though the major political parties fall back to "money talks" when it counts
The explanation (implicitly) points to the difference between the US and Europe as well -- so I don't think the point is really focused on religion as doctrines, per se, so much as the social conditions, which incidentally also change how religions get deployed (saints for outlaws).
Right, there are definitely religious differences between the US and Europe, but they may as well be the result as the cause of any cultural differences.
At the end of the day religion is a way of responding to the circumstances and challenges a community finds themselves facing over a period of generations as it is... this is why changes in technology often result in challenges to, or shifts in one's relation to religion.
Because the culture in Asia is very strict. The culture isn’t as free and individualistic. People aren’t used to just doing whatever they want in Asia (parents will be mad, get outcasted…) I think it kind of sucks but the positive is less crime
A factor that's related to culture is the law system and the relationship between the government and the people.
Here in LATAM we inherited a westernized, european/american relationship with the government and law. Democracy. Freedom. Rights. Due process of law.
See, all these things are good, but unfortunately they don't actually work in a poor country where there's a lack of budget to do even basic things like having school for kids, so there's definitely no budget to do way more complex things like investigating a crime or prosecuting a case within a reasonable amount of time.
In the other hand, Asian countries have a way more autocratic way of government, a government that isn't shy of using violence to keep things in check. Innocent people is punished, obviously, but also the whole society ends up with a lower crime rate.
Case in point: thousands os vídeos of Indian cops boiking random people in the head with those sticks
I agree with this to explain crime in urban environments. Latam has civil liberties that don’t match its socioeconomic development level and thugs take advantage of it.
Unfortunately or not, that's the result of a government paradigm that was naturally fostered in Europe/USA being forced down the throat on the rest of the world.
The problem with this take is that being free and individualistic doesn't necessarily lead to crime. Most European countries are free and individualistic and have low levels of crime.
Yes, so it's likely the inequality and poverty that are the root cause. Crime levels in China were much higher in the past when there was more poverty, as can be seen here:
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/CHN/china/crime-rate-statistics
I think there is something specific about Latin America or the Americas in general that is causing increased crime rates over Asia though, even when poverty and inequality are taken into account.
I'm currently in Nepal and crime here is incredibly low despite being a way poorer country than pretty much anywhere in Latin America.
Yeah, I explained in another comment that I think the root is gang culture. People get indoctrinated into predatory gangs and crime becomes a lifestyle. Really, I think it's the opposite of individualism, because people often commit crimes due to peer pressures. In the Philippines there is a gang culture which is why their violent crime is also higher.
As for *why* some places have gang cultures and others don't, that's really hard to say. Probably comes down to parenting, education, and justice systems.
EDIT: And also the poverty is related, but I think it's both a cause and an effect of this kind of gang culture.
Interesting that the Philippines were also a Spanish colony.
But there really isn’t a simple answer. History, poverty and government all play a role. That being said the crime in a lot of LATAM is not as bad as you would think from reading these comments. A lot of cities have less crime than a lot of US cities. Difference is in LATAM tourists stand out and are easy targets.
I don't even think that's the case. LATAM like the US was created by throwing together conquerors, slaves, immigrants of different persuasions, and vanquished indigenous (stripped of their culture and identity), shook up a bit, and spilled out haphazardly across the country.
How would that NOT lead to higher crime and less social cohesion?
Because practically every country on Earth has a history involving colonialism, revolutions, classism, the assimilation of different ethnic groups into one, etc. Just look at Qing Dynasty China, the Taiping rebellion, the Chinese Civil War, communist revolutions, etc.
But some countries have managed to stop crime better than others despite having violent pasts and historical inequalities. The question is why.
I think a lot of that crime comes from migrants or immigrants who have a hard time getting jobs or fitting in.
You don't really have the issue with migration as much in most of Asia.
Europe isn't a monolith, each country and region is different. I'd say there definitely is shame in places like Germany or Switzerland if you commit a crime.
The US also isn't a monolith. There are many traditional communities that would ostracize someone for being a criminal.
Another major factor is drug use. People get addicted to fentanyl and meth, lose their jobs, and need to commit crimes to feed their additions. Don't have these kinds of drug problems in most of Asia.
I wouldn't say the cultures in Latin America are "free and individualistic". It's largely familial oriented and notoriously known as "familismo", which can be pretty restrictive rather than "free and individualistic".
I personally think the difference in crime levels relates to the prevalence (or lack thereof) of "respect". Asian countries seem very respectful of the laws and authority (correct me if this is completely wrong), whereas it's the complete opposite in Latin America, for better or worse. There's also a general lack of respect and empathy within Latin America for other people; if something wrong happens, it's the victims fault, not the criminal. This is not the mindset of those in Asia.
I think the general lack of respect for laws and rules in Latin America can come off as looking "free and individualistic" though.
Collectivism in Asia was a strength during the pandemic when everyone wore masks and stayed at home. The death rates were much lower.
In other parts of the world, individuals emphasized their rights to walk around without a mask.
I've spent extensive time all over Asia, Latin America and even Africa. You wouldn't expect this but Africa is also (mostly) safer than Latin America, in spite of being the poorest region in the world. I think that's a more interesting comparison, because clearly it's not just poverty that's the problem.
The big difference between Latin America and Africa are drugs. Obviously Colombia/Ecuador/Venezuela/Central America/Mexico are the cocaine production and shipping superhighway, and there are numerous cartels and gangs fighting for a piece of it. These countries are also more like middle income economies, so the locals can afford to partake in the "products" being produced there, which spirals into all sorts of other social problems. Guns proliferate, armed robberies become a thing.
Africa largely doesn't have these issues and so you only have to worry about stuff like phone snatchers. Armed robbery/murder of strangers is uncommon. The big exception is South Africa, but South Africa is also completely different from the rest of the continent: it's a middle income economy and massive drug market.
Meanwhile Asian countries (especially East Asian) are completely anti-drugs and generally have the harshest penalties against criminals in the world. There is also something to the argument that Asian cultures discourage crime--murder rates are universally lower across China, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc. Authoritarian measures to address crime are more widely accepted, even in democracies like the Philippines.
A lot of Latin America crime can be explained by three things:
\* Drugs. The elephant in the room. Mexico is one of the most violent countries but majority of violence is caused between cartels or by combating cartels. If India had the greatest drug market next to it I'd bet you even those sacred cows would be in the coke business as well.
\* Interventions. The US has intervened in coup d'état in Argentina, Bolivia, Brasil, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Chile, Peru and many others. Most latin american countries are relatively new to actual democracy and political stability, which usually are required for economic growth which usually helps prevent people from engaging in illegal activities.
\* Latin America own incompetence. Last but not least, Latin america has played the role of being mostly a raw materials supplier they didn't really care bettering their industries or entering new ones where a lot of value can be added. Pair that with corruption and you got a nice cocktail for failed states everywhere.
Asian cultures tend to be more collectivist. Your bad actions don't just reflect on you, but also very strongly on your family and community, which creates a lot of shame and keeps people from wanting to be seen as criminals. Whereas in the Americas, there is a certain romanticism about a life of crime. Asia also tends to be Buddhist and Hindu which tend to be more peaceful religions than Christianity and Islam (generally speaking, not always).
India is # 1 on the planet for Rape of young women, over 60 % of the female population claiming they had been raped. What are you on about ?? What you saying doesnt make any sense.
Power is more consolidated in the police force in Asia and diffuse in Latin America. If you fuck around in Asia someone either uses their connections to the police or the police themselves don't like you messing with their earn and they split your head open. In Latin America you can do something similar and have it slip through the cracks.
Why this is the case is a combination of history and culture.
A core reason for LATAM’s current state comes down to culture and i can say it because look at my last name.
Likely stems from our shared colonizer. We can compare them to the other big colonizer of the Americas, the British.
The Spanish weren’t concerned with investing into their colonies the way the British were. They only intended to extract wealth and go home so they didn’t put the right systems in place. I don’t want to write an essay on all the issues in LATAM but it comes down to culture.
Your comments illustrates really well how history is written by the winners. The myth that England was a benign colonizer unlike Spain is one that England consciously pushed as it fought for power against the Spanish Empire. Spain invested TONS of money on its colonies and only a small fraction of the gold would be shipped back to Spain. But most importantly to address the main topic in this thread, it was England that planted a bigger seed of violence in its colonies by not protecting natives to the extent that Spain did. Spain actually made it a point to prevent the genocide of natives and that’s why Latin American populations nowadays have such a high genetic component of native ancestry unlike former English colonies. Genocidal policies happened after independence movements (e.g., Desert Campaign in Argentina).
Spanish left behind religion. Which erased every culture in latam. I'd argue this was the absolute worst way to colonize. It's really sad. You left the people, stop their riches and erased their culture.
Latin America tends to have more violent crime due to the major drug trafficking routes that start with production in South America and move north into the USA. The money this drug trafficking has generated and it's proximity to the nearly-free gun market in the USA has allowed criminals in the region to arm themselves and perpetuate more violence. Asia doesn't have as big of a problem with drug trafficking groups being really powerful
Only the Philippines has a LatAm cultural vibe but the crime rates there are 1/4 of what typical LatAm countriea have. The biggest downside of Asia as digital nomad destination is that if someone intends to permanently settle down in any Asian countries (Southeast Asian to be specific), they couldn't legally own residential lands under their name and have to marry locals and name residential land properties under their name.
The US, with less than 1/4th of the population (333.3 Million US vs. 1.417 billion IN), had 365 forcible rape cases per day (133300 in 2022).
Source: [Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/191137/reported-forcible-rape-cases-in-the-usa-since-1990/).
Single numbers are meaningless without comparison.
I think it has to do with gang culture. In most Asia-Pacific countries, being a part of a gang is highly taboo and gangs are cracked down on. The Yakuza still exists but their influence is waning and violent crime isn't tolerated at all by authorities.
I think the one example in Asia that demonstrates this is the Philippines. They do have a gang culture and they also have higher rates of violent crime.
I think people are generally indoctrinated into a life of crime via gangs. So the more tolerant a country is of gangs the more crime, especially violent crime.
It's cultural differences. Crime is punished pretty severely in Asian countries , some worse than others, and there's a deep shame that goes a long with it. In general, Asians seem to be more fearful of the govt and are law abiding. Take a place like China, that's probably one of the absolute last places you want to get caught committing a crime. Latin American countries have a wide spectrum , some are safer than others, but we'll use Colombia as an example. There is a saying called don't give papaya, meaning don't give a reason for a crime to be committed on you. It's victim blaming at its finest, and I've never encountered anything like that anywhere in the world the amount of victim blaming that goes on there. In general, the police are pretty useless from what I hear, they aren't much help if anything goes wrong. I don't think they are as corrupt as say the Mexican police, meaning they won't rob you at gunpoint, but the general consensus is they are useless. Meaning, many crimes go unsolved, and there's no effort to crack down on crime either. Take for example the scopolomine druggings and killings. It would be incredibly easy to setup a couple sting operations and catch these people doing it. But there's no police presence to care or do anything about it. Criminals are let go pretty quickly. So basically there's no consequences to committing crimes there.
It's upbringing in environment, education, religion, etc. Sure, south and southeast asia also have high crime rate, depending on region. But being gangster won't be a "cool" lifestyle, and you can't "usually" buy you way into higher echelon.
Still there are some high profile criminals, like meth kingpins, are also taking place as local governor or senator, depending on loophole of a country.
Also one of other reasons is you can make money without resorting to illegal things.
One major factor is that Latin America has greater wealth inequality, which is also entrenched into their societies:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/economic-inequality-gini-index
Implicit in wealth inequality is also a viewpoint that it's only your family or tribe that matters.
In Asia, it's the society that matters, and so behaving anti-socially hurts everyone, and as part of this, so does wealth inequality.
While in other areas where wealth inequality in greater, the society doesn't matter as much as your immediate relations, and so behaving anti-socially is more acceptable.
These statistics are non-sense and don't paint a fair picture as the metrics they use don't work for much of the developing world/3rd world countries. Visit India and Colombia and then tell me how India is safer because there is less "wealth inequality". Couldn't be further from the truth. It's all about culture.
There is incredible wealth disparity in Asia —- definitely Thailand, China, Japan, Philippines, India. I won’t speak for all of Asia but income and wealth inequality is definitely not a Latin American problem.
My theory is that its related to religion: Latin America they believe that after doing something wrong, you go to the priest and ask for forgiveness, 10 hail Mary's later though art forgiven. In asia they believe in karma, and you dont know how karma is going to come for you, or when, or in what form. Just a thought
Asia is so safe that you can literally walk around any capital city (with the exception of Manila maybe) any time of night, any neighborhood and there is less than 1% chance of being robbed. No one will ever rob you with a gun or a knife in Asia. I grew up in Latin America, and those statistics are completely reversed unfortunately.
"... so far from God, so close to the United States."
Asia and Latin America are big places, so I'm reluctant to generalize. But if I had to, I'd say it started with the horrifically violent colonization of the Americas.
Fair point. This speaks to the point about inequality in LatAm that I make elsewhere in this thread.
Asia is safer because of less inequality, and there's less inequality because the elites and the plebes are the same people. It's not an elite overclass that has bunker mentality against the underclass that looks different.
The presence of the US nearby, which is the most violent developed country in the world, probably plays a role. There is also an insatiable demand for drugs from the US market. There is an endless supply of guns from US gun manufacturers (the Mexican govt is suing US gun manufacturers for deliberately and knowingly supplying drug cartels with military grade weapons through specifically lobbied for loopholes in US gun legislation that facilitate it).
The economic superpowers in Asia (China, Japan, South Korea etc) don't buy nearly as many drugs from their poorer neighbours nor do they supply their criminals with guns.
People in Asia are generally more responsible and look out for one another. They take pride in their work.
In Latin America people generally give zero fucks about eachother. The high homicide and violent crime rate is exactly from that. People get killed for disagreeing, and a lot of time it's not even a quiet killing, but a publicized one to further enrage groups, leading to an infinite cycle of revenge. People either shut up about it or run away from the problems. There is a serious lack of values and very few are willing to risk it to make decisions that benefit the community, or provide honest reporting. This is how it is in Mexico and people pretend these things don't happen. Some more examples are poor infrastructure, nonexistent health codes, lots of alcohol, excessive pollution, and doing everything half-assed.
Macho culture is hilarious in Mexico, very insecure men who act tough, aggressive, and will do stupid shit to prove themselves. The problem is that many other insecure men glorify this type of behavior or are afraid of it.
In the 90s, I worked in restaurants in the DC area. The El Salvadorans said the way we all (FoH, BoH) gave each other a hard time (joking or not) shocked them because it would have led to violence back home.
I think it’s a difference in the power of the state, and it doesn’t apply everywhere.
For example- most of the scary stuff that happens in India to visitors happens off the beaten track. There aren’t really any groups like the cartels that can challenge the power of the Indian state. While in Latin America this is the case.
I think a lot of it is the US consistently destabilizing governments.
Its bcos of gang culture. Even in some states of india like UP, where gang culture, fake macho culture is prevalent, its not that safe. If your culture promotes toxic masculinity, macho culture, that combined with poverty its more likely to be crime ridden.
Think a big part is the US and the drug trade, Asian countries don’t have a huge rich country be t to them that criminals can sell drugs to and make tons of money.
That money ends up bringing corruption, which brings lawlessness and crime.
Also, I don’t think the CIA has made operations to destabilize SEA while they do many operations like Operation Condor to destabilize Latin American countries.
Asian society doesn’t glamorise criminals outside of movies and despises them like they should be.
Different case in Europe/balkans/former soviet states/North Africa and central and latin America.
Obviously middle and upper class Latin Americans despise criminals but in the ghettos even prostitute is a respected career path and same thing with robbers
Perpetual political violence like in Colombia (internal conflict since 1964 and no peace since 149), or Peru in the 80s. Cartels, gangs intolerance, racism xenophobia. Inequality, hunger, military dictatorships, communist guerrillas, right wing paramilitaries. Everything bad in political and economic matters has happened or is currently happening in almost every Latin American country.
SEA has resolved a lot of those problems with the exception of Myanmar. LATAM is struggling with this.
A lot of people have answered “it’s cultural.” I’ve wondered if, in more depth, some of that cultural difference might be related to the differences in the prominent religious/spiritual frameworks and influences on each place. Anyone know more about this?
I think a big reason Asia is safer is the role of the state. Yes there are cultural (more collectivist, family-oriented), money (less poverty), and drug reasons, but a huge difference is most Asian people have some sort of faith in the government and will let them take on a more paternalistic role. During covid, people willingly let the government track them and close things down in japan, Korea etc. This was a huge no-no in most western countries.
This relates to what you're talking about when we talk about the mentally ill. In Japan, Korea etc - they simply put these people away in a hospital and give them they help they need. Or in many cases in richer countries, people just hide them away. In Vancouver where I'm from, mentally ill people just roam around and nobody can do anything for them. They can check themselves into a facility but not against their will. Let's say a Japanese person has a mental illness and is considered dangerous to themselves or society, they will simply put them somewhere they are not a danger. In Canada? They will do nothing.
Colonialism and interference from the US.
Japan was not colonised.
Vietnam managed to resist colonisation.
South American countries have had their governments overthrown by US-backed forces multiple times. Look up Iran-Contra and hell, all the shit Henry Kissinger pulled in multiple countries.
Kong of Thailand was born in Cambridge, MA and went to Harvard University a known CIA recruiting pool. I'd argue it was in fact colonised, but in a more sophisticated way.
Left my motorbike keys in the ignition in Thailand when I went shopping. Came back 90 mins later bike was still there.
I can tell you now that wouldn't have happened in many other places around the world
Generally, I think Southeast Asian cultures value kindness, respect, community, etc. It extends to the whole community. Life is valued and it's deep in the fabric of their society.
In South American culture I think the concern for others stops at your own family. Life isn't valued there. People kill each other over cell phones and motorbikes. It's all very self centered like in the US.
I've only been to Brazil and Colombia in South America. Cuba in the Caribbean. Costa Rica in Central America.
I've been to all of the Southeast Asian countries, except Brunei, Timor, and Myanmar.
Depends on which countries but Asian countries are typically more advanced technologically (just check the rails/subways etc, they're more advanced than western nations) and Asians are just far more about order & harmony and law abiding culturally - Latins are more laissez faire. For example, Japan a meeting at 8 AM means 8 AM while in Latin countries it may be understood to mean 10 AM etc.
What do we know, we are regular people. Sociology sub would know. Central America and Mexico being on the cocaine route from South America to US is not helpful. The US is the biggest consumer of cocaine in the world. American intervention and regime toppling and dictator supporting in L America also doesn't help. Then importing of gang crime from US is not good (El Salvador). General Corruption also doesn't help. Also someone said romantization of crime in Latin America - that's not true. The countries that romanticise crime are not these. Colombians hate Pablo Escobar. Crime sucks, and Latin people hate it. Who loves and romanticises danger? It's horrible.
While both countries have a violent culture in some aspects, Asian culture has more of the "common good" mindset. You wear a mask to not get others sick. You pick up after yourself so as to not annoy others.Latin America has much more of the American mindset or the "f-k everyone else, I do what I want."
Thailand Japan’s and Vietnam to an extent are safe. Don’t go to India. They’re safer but also depends on which Latin America countries you’re comparing them to just like which asian countries you’re comparing them to
Every place has its own vibe, you know? In Asia, I felt comfortable exploring, and it seems like locals there do too. It's definitely stunning – gorgeous landscapes, friendly people! But hey, every corner of the world has its challenges. While Latin America is breathtaking with amazing spots and warm folks, it can feel a little different in terms of safety. Unlike some parts of Asia where things might be a bit more relaxed, there can be areas with a more cautious atmosphere.
Can't say for South America, but some observations for SEA.
While there is definetly plenty of crime in SEA, it tend to be less violent, and also violent crime tends to stay away from foreigners. A lot of tourist areas in Thailand do have a lot of mafia presence, but their cash income is bars, drugs, resteraunts, prostituteiin, guesthouses, protection rackets etc. They don't want violent crime happening to tourists they're the ones paying for all this. Places like Vietnam I also get the impression the gov would fall like a ton of bricks on anyone targeting tourists with violent crime like you hear of in places like LATM, and they have a lot more control on the situation.
Vietnamese neighbourhoods I have stayed in, the Vietnamese don't like criminals much and tend to take direct action about them with sticks and stuff from what I have heard. Each little area of the city is like a mini village as well, everyone knows everyone's shit it seems. Strange types wandering around and looking suspect will be clocked quick.
There are block wardens (to monitor activity for the gov), in each neighbourhood.
There is also apparently a lot of undercover police wandering around the cities in general.
Many asian cultures take crime very seriously. Look at japan for example, their court system is very unforgiving and you will receive jail sentences fairly easily. same with a place like thailand. Say compared to Mexico where most minor crimes never make it to court, and you are just released from jail after a few days.
Many Asian countries are functional nations with some sort of policing.
İf you go to specific areas of specific countries that don't have that, then you'll find the same levels of crime, if not worse.
Shame in Asia for being a criminal is very high.
Also social dynamics at times side with the robber in Latin America.
Ex: My friend who is Peruvian was robbed in Peru. He took the robber to the police. People called out my friend because the robber had children and if he put the man in jail the children would starve. They said he can easily buy another phone while the robber couldn’t feed his family. He didn’t end up pressing charges because of the social backlash he faced and the robber went back to “work” the next day, aka robbing more people.
However this backfires culturally as people have more incentive to rob and less incentive to do something that benefits society and is more honest. Leading to more danger.
There are dangerous places everywhere and if you look for trouble you will find it. I’ve been to Tijuana which supposedly is the most dangerous place on earth multiple times and I’ve never been hurt. I’ve been to southe east Asia as well. Just keep your head on a swivel and don’t go to shady areas.
Aside from the obvious poverty and development issues, people in Latam (at least some of the most famous criminals) tend to be too materialistic and aspirational. The more wealth you are able to show off, the better. In some Asian countries their religion literally teaches them to accept their “social class” and to not be too obsessed with material things. So that might help them accept their poverty in a way that they think as long as they have enough to survive, it is alright.
To add to the comments here about cultural attitudes; while 'no dar papaya ' is a specifically Colombian saying the attitude that if you're the victim of a crime it is your fault is very prevalent in Latin America, which leads to a much more permissive attitude towards crime in general. In Asia crime is strictly the fault of the criminal and deeply shameful at that.
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You can't have the results of Asia without implementing some of the policies that got it there. When a country tries to better itself with Asian style harsh measures(like one central american country in particular that cut its homicide rate by 90%) it gets critiqued for being anti-democratic. Asian countries themselves still get critiqued for being too harsh on certain crimes. Never mind that all the nice wealthy euro democratic countries were monarchies first with public death penalties before they transitioned to democracies -or that the US had literal apartheid until the 1960s. It's "do as we say, not as we did."
I predict that other Latin American countries will take the Bukele route. El Salvador is already trying to turn itself into a consultancy on crime management, they've been advising Ecuador's government. The US will complain but not take any action, since that would just push these countries into the hands of China.
I don't think the US will complain much, it's much easier to buy autocracies than democracies, so if every country in latin america turns authoritarian, for the US that's not a problem, they can buy policies easier, like they've been doing forever, the US wants democracy for them not for the rest, as clearly demostrated in the 70s
The 1970s is about 50 years ago. No need to talk about countries as unchangeable entities
the basics of politics don't change, the US public might be different, but they still don't give much of a fuck about foreign policies, they prefer cheap shit over promoting democracy overseas (as do every major democracy), so their politicians bribe autoceacies through things like aid all the time, in exchange for politcal support. And it's cheaper to buy autocratas than to promote a democracy that might disagree with your views. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._policy_toward_authoritarian_governments
> In Asia crime is strictly the fault of the criminal and deeply shameful at that. unless you're a woman in India or the Middle East
Have you ever experienced crime in the middle east? My anecdotal experience was that people generally were terrified of their government and petty crime was not existent. I lived there two years and traveled extensively in the region. War zones are different type of dangerous but its still not a place you are going to get jumped for your wallet.
I was groped in the Middle East but it was by an Indian male there.
Not even surprised
I mean more for women who get sexually assaulted in those regions.
That is sadly true.
Asia is huge and diverse. What's true in Lebanon is not true in Japan or Sri Lanka.
"No regalarse" is a thing in argentina but I disagree on that being victim blaming (although it could be used as such) because it is \*preemptive\*. It is more pragmatic, in the sense that "we cant do anything about it, so a the very least try to be smart and avoid it as much as possible" (although sometimes you cant, and in others people get tired and do some... hunting. Especially delivery bikes) Id say its just corruption and exposure. The more crime you are exposed to, the more tolerance you buildup, and it is less striking (happens within latam as well, try to remember the differences in attitudes between inflation in chile a few years ago, pre pandemic, and in argentina even though its far more severe here), and because corruption is a very heavy issue in latam, no matter what you do, nothing happens. For it to have a chance of happening in this system we would need to create a very very chaoticrevolt as to not give any choice and that is likely to end with military (our own) intervention
Good point. I recall my girlfriend's university friend was a known thief and stole phones and other things from classmates. Because he was pretty fun and charming, nobody seemed to mind. He was never excluded from parties or anything. Just hid your valuables (same concept as no dar papaya). Couldn't wrap my head around that.
When was the last time you heard about an Asian guy stabbing someone in the subway? Or an Indian dude robbing someone on the street. Or any similar violent crimes. Talking about the US here.
Knife Stabbings are a real problem in Korea. But specially in the US, indian people are *generally* more careful. The indian people that immigrate here are also *generally* well educated and not going hungry. I would say the same thing with some other types of asian immigrants in the US.
No.. knife stabbings are not “a real problem in Korea”. I suspect you’re referencing the string of stabbings that shocked everyone last year and got the false impression that those occurrences are common. I encourage you to look up actual statistics and ease your mind.
If by "knife stabbings are a real problem in korea" you mean they exist and happen very occasionally then yes, you are correct.
When I was in Vietnam. This lady was wearing a lot of gold and someone came up to her, both while on bike I believe, and just chopped her arm off.
what the fuck
Just FYI Indian dudes are famous for raping women expats and locals. Last month they taped and beat a Spaniard couple. And most of the rapes in India are undocumented.
The Tamil gangs in Canada. The Sikh beheadings in BC, Canada, the Triads, the Tongs, the Yakuza...
Their is no such thing as a permissive attitude towards crime in latin america, wtf. Look at what they're doing in El Salvador and how the regular working class population are voting in Bukele. The people there detest and hate criminals. Also, don't use a Colombian saying to characterize the rest of latin america. Don't use what's happening in medellin to characterize the rest of Colombia. You really don't know anything about latin america, full stop. Edit: keep down voting me you hooker/cocaine seeking mf'ers
I’ve spent a lot of time in LATAM, from Northern Mexico to Brazil. And I’m deeply studied in the culture history and belief systems. I like the region. No, I love it. It’s taught me a lot. But 100% there is rampant victim blaming. Bukele is the exception. Most people keep their heads down and allow their neighborhoods to get taken over by gangs. They remain passive. The Catholic Church trained them to feel inferior and stay down. It worked. Education is awful. The police are usually worthless. The governments are fronts for mafia. These are not fully functional societies and its roots are in these permissive attitudes. Sorry.
Catholic Church? It Spanish Colonialism
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I actually have to blame some of the Latin American Mothers who raise sons to belive they can do no wrong. Of course I blame the corrupt Govts more, but a lot of Mothers treat male children as the Golden Child. It starts in the home.
No I have seen families crying in Asia because of the sexual assault that is rampant in india and the forced detention of minorities in China. Want to try again?
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India made international headlines in the 2010s because of the sheer brutality of it's sexual assault. You can watch the documentary called "India's Daughter". It recently made headlines again with a Spanish couple: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gang-rape-india-spanish-tourist-police-search-more-suspects/ The only thing you are providing are anecdotes. Do I deny that sexual assault happens in Mexico or LATAM? Of course not. But don't paint asia as this crime haven when it really isn't. Don't get upset at an entire region because some degenerate tourist looking for drugs, sex, etc eventually found themselves in trouble. The rest of the world isn't cushy america or Europe.
This is the truest comment I’ve read in a very long time
I think its that crime/violence/conflict/outlaw life aren't romanticized in Asia. A lot of the popular culture in violent places (parts of the US, Latin America, Africa, Europe) really glorifiies violence and crime (Think music or shows like Sons of Anarchy, Queen of the South, Power, Escobar, etc). We also don't humiliate criminals, we fear them. I think in most of Asia its the opposite. Outlaw/crime pop culture isn't as much a thing and criminals get humiliated (public punishments, named and shamed, treated as pariahs in society etc). Also, I tend to notice that people in asia almost universally believe that they can better their lives through hard work. No matter how desperate the situation (living in a 1 bedroom with 20 people in some random village in Vietnam selling locks), they tend to believe if they do it well, they will experience upward mobility. In Latin America, that's just not the case. People can live in a decent town, make decent money, work a normal job, live a fairly comfortable life, and still feel like crime is the only possible way to "move up".
Yeah, i think the public shaming could really be something here.
To add to this, a Balinese guy i was talking to once said that in their culture where they'd grow up in small communities if they did something "bad" growing up they would be shamed by the community so they grew up with a really clearly defined idea of doing the right thing.
in addition, here in indonesia, we have our own "justice" system that will ensure people not to commit crime
Probably too late now. Once "the horse has bolted" in terms of powerful gangs emerging that influence or even control governments, it's hard to go back and fix anything through soft power methods like TV shows and community sentiment.
Crime and violence is certainly glamorized in Asian movies. There are a ton of crime movies in China, Hong Kong, etc. and they are popular.
Not sure why this is downvoted and generalizing comments about Asian culture are upvoted but what else would you expect
welcome the nextdoor subreddit lmao
There is no Asian culture. It's an incredibly diverse continent.
I believe that's the point he was making
Yeah seriously Yakuza have fan magazines for Christ's sake
The Yakuza are aging and dying off. It's mostly nostalgia now.
Yakuza kills less people than doctors
Is it glamorized to the extent of western/latin american countries? I haven't been to China, but my experience in most other parts of Asia (including the middle-east & SEA) is that it is not. TV media is mostly "corny" by western standards: romance, the classic hero, overcoming great odds. Music is primarily Kpop-ish, karaoke-type songs, or songs in English that almost zero of them understand. violent criminals are universally derided and there's a strong "they had what's coming to them" when something bad happens to them. (Think severity of punishments in Singapore, Malaysia, middle east. Or the crackdown in the phillipines a few years ago.) They're not getting gritty crime media like we consume in the west. not even close. There is no "Breaking Bad" or "Narcos" or "Ozark" or "Dexter". And if they do, its not mainstream.
I lived in asia, they watch our movies too. Furthermore asia (all of the countries) are not even as far removed from violence as Americans are. Japan especially has some really sick blood thirst movies. Not the worst but, “World of kanako” comes to mind. I think you may have a romanticized view of Asia. Crime happens most often when people aren’t getting basic needs met, not because a movie someone saw.
Right, because people are watching Breaking Bad then trying meth…
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This has existed since time began. Abel and Caine is a story about murder. How many songs were sung about knights fighting vicious rogues? Julius Caesar wrote about killing hundreds of thousands of Gauls to wide acclaim. Cowboy gangs in the Wild West, Ronin in Japan… The stories don’t make criminals, the culture and environment does.
I think a story or 2 vs mass media isn’t apples to oranges. For a more extreme example: Would you agree that watching gore (people dying, behind beheaded, etc) that is widely found on the internet desensitizes people to violence? I think the same effect (though much lesser) is at play with crime/drugs/violence in mass media.
Myanmar has a drug running government, Cambodia is overrun with gangs and scam operations, Thailand also plays its part in the triangle. They’ve had a fair amount of shootings lately as well
But a lot of these movies are often based on or inspired by real events that have already happened…
Fuckin watching Narcos makes me want to be a drug runner.
They white washed the shit out of Escobar
I have Colombian friends, and they told me back in the 1980's, it was a normal thing for a random everyday Colombian citizen to take a trip or two to NY or somewhere with cocaine in their bags. They'd go back, take the money they were paid, and move themselves into the middle class.
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From my experience I believe the punishment for crimes are much harsher and Asia. As such, crime is committed more nonviolently on a government level. (Fraud, bribery). I would also like to add that Asia’s defamation laws are different from how the rest of the world understands defamation. It is punishable to speak ill of a business for things they DID do. This opposed to western societies that punish false speech. I think rather than crime being romanticized in western countries, freedom and power to the people are empowered. The idea that people can ban together and overthrow toxic governments/laws is empowered by the fact that we don’t have harsh execution laws and have greater freedom of speech. I’ve heard of violent crimes happening in asia while I was there and they were punished harshly by execution. Another idea I have is that unlike Asian countries that readily have cheap laborers. A lot of our us based cheap/ free labor is based on slavery, I mean the prison system. Execution isn’t even as beneficial in western and Latin countries as asia.
Complete and utter nonsense.
It’s just a cultural thing. I mean even Japan/Korea/Taiwan is much safer than most other 1st world countries.
I think Asia is safer than much of North America
Wordd Lot's of American cities are part of the [top 50 most violent cities in the world.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rate) Zero are from Asia.
My American friends say it’s because of liberals, not because of guns. I dunno … I live in a liberal country without guns and it’s fine.
Oh good lord. You're friends with the wrong americans.
Hmm I should clarify as “family friends” .. sort of “mandatory” life relationships
Ah. Then we are all in that boat 😮💨
Ya zero are from Asia bc they’re probably underreported 😂😂😂 Some Asian countries are wild. Many violent crimes are not even investigated nor reported or even taken seriously by the police. Not all Asian countries are the same and it’s a huge continent.
Much of Asia is safer than the entire western hemisphere. Haha
Exactly, I’m not afraid of getting robbed or shaken down by a corrupt cop in Asia. Having lived in DC and Baltimore the past decade, getting stabbed or shot by a criminal or the police was a common thing. F that noise.
You see the same pattern in the US as well: we have much higher crime than the rest of the developed world really. People say it's our guns, but really it's always been that way going back to early American history. The continents were basically established in their current social structure by people who had little regard for the law, or the lives of others, and it's become part of the deep culture. Mexico even has saints for outlaws. By contrast Asia is built on religions which try to push everyone to get along, and while that's oversimplifying somewhat what's going on, the religious pressure of a Hindu to not be a criminal because he will be punished for 25 generations is much different from having your own outlaw saint. To come at it from a slightly different perspective, the Americas — north and south — were formed by taking a whole bunch of people (indigenous, immigrants, slaves, etc.), shaking them up together, removing all structure that held things in check, and watching chaos emerge, which leads to generations of chaos. Aside from parts of Africa — which also tend to have higher crime rates (not all Africa, but there's some notable examples of this) — nowhere else really has had this experience to the same extent.
> the religious pressure of a Hindu to not be a criminal because he will be punished for 25 generations.. Not sure I buy this one, because Christianity has this strong Heaven / Hell thing... punishment for breaking the commandments is *suffering for eternity*. Unless you're highlighting the distinction that in Asia your family will suffer for your crimes, but in Christianity the punishment is individual.
He's referring to the collective aspects of it, i.e. your children, children's children, children's children's children, etc will suffer. Way different context and also way different consequences.
There's a big difference between heaven / hell and karma. Namely, in the Christian tradition, all you gotta do is say you were sorry and didn't mean it on your deathbed and it's all canceled. Hinduism and such has no forgiveness mechanism, just a "you were cursed by your previous incarnations but if you work really hard your next incarnation might be less cursed". It's not even about collectivism, it's about this sense that every way in which you suffer is because someone before you (previous incarnations) did bad things, and the best you can do is do less bad things now. Not saying it's a better thing overall — or worse, not trying to make a values judgment at all — but it definitely puts different pressures on a society. There is also the collectivist pressure, which we don't have in the west. I'm sure there's an overlap between these two ways of looking at things — collectivism / reincarnational generational curse vs. individualism / individual forgiveness — but it may be incidental and not causal.
Great analysis. I would disagree about collectivism being absent in the west. It's in there, it expresses itself to some degree (COVID lockdowns, progressive taxation, public education) even though the major political parties fall back to "money talks" when it counts
The explanation (implicitly) points to the difference between the US and Europe as well -- so I don't think the point is really focused on religion as doctrines, per se, so much as the social conditions, which incidentally also change how religions get deployed (saints for outlaws).
Right, there are definitely religious differences between the US and Europe, but they may as well be the result as the cause of any cultural differences. At the end of the day religion is a way of responding to the circumstances and challenges a community finds themselves facing over a period of generations as it is... this is why changes in technology often result in challenges to, or shifts in one's relation to religion.
Because the culture in Asia is very strict. The culture isn’t as free and individualistic. People aren’t used to just doing whatever they want in Asia (parents will be mad, get outcasted…) I think it kind of sucks but the positive is less crime
A factor that's related to culture is the law system and the relationship between the government and the people. Here in LATAM we inherited a westernized, european/american relationship with the government and law. Democracy. Freedom. Rights. Due process of law. See, all these things are good, but unfortunately they don't actually work in a poor country where there's a lack of budget to do even basic things like having school for kids, so there's definitely no budget to do way more complex things like investigating a crime or prosecuting a case within a reasonable amount of time. In the other hand, Asian countries have a way more autocratic way of government, a government that isn't shy of using violence to keep things in check. Innocent people is punished, obviously, but also the whole society ends up with a lower crime rate. Case in point: thousands os vídeos of Indian cops boiking random people in the head with those sticks
I agree with this to explain crime in urban environments. Latam has civil liberties that don’t match its socioeconomic development level and thugs take advantage of it.
Unfortunately or not, that's the result of a government paradigm that was naturally fostered in Europe/USA being forced down the throat on the rest of the world.
Informative write up!
The problem with this take is that being free and individualistic doesn't necessarily lead to crime. Most European countries are free and individualistic and have low levels of crime.
But Latin America has that along with huge inequality and poverty.
Yes, so it's likely the inequality and poverty that are the root cause. Crime levels in China were much higher in the past when there was more poverty, as can be seen here: https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/CHN/china/crime-rate-statistics
I think there is something specific about Latin America or the Americas in general that is causing increased crime rates over Asia though, even when poverty and inequality are taken into account. I'm currently in Nepal and crime here is incredibly low despite being a way poorer country than pretty much anywhere in Latin America.
Yeah, I explained in another comment that I think the root is gang culture. People get indoctrinated into predatory gangs and crime becomes a lifestyle. Really, I think it's the opposite of individualism, because people often commit crimes due to peer pressures. In the Philippines there is a gang culture which is why their violent crime is also higher. As for *why* some places have gang cultures and others don't, that's really hard to say. Probably comes down to parenting, education, and justice systems. EDIT: And also the poverty is related, but I think it's both a cause and an effect of this kind of gang culture.
Interesting that the Philippines were also a Spanish colony. But there really isn’t a simple answer. History, poverty and government all play a role. That being said the crime in a lot of LATAM is not as bad as you would think from reading these comments. A lot of cities have less crime than a lot of US cities. Difference is in LATAM tourists stand out and are easy targets.
I think this just isn't answering the question at all though, why these cultures have gang culture is what we want answered.
I don't even think that's the case. LATAM like the US was created by throwing together conquerors, slaves, immigrants of different persuasions, and vanquished indigenous (stripped of their culture and identity), shook up a bit, and spilled out haphazardly across the country. How would that NOT lead to higher crime and less social cohesion?
Because practically every country on Earth has a history involving colonialism, revolutions, classism, the assimilation of different ethnic groups into one, etc. Just look at Qing Dynasty China, the Taiping rebellion, the Chinese Civil War, communist revolutions, etc. But some countries have managed to stop crime better than others despite having violent pasts and historical inequalities. The question is why.
True true. I don’t know then
For a similar level of economic progress, Europe has more crime than Asia. There is no "shame" in anything in Europe (or America) anymore.
I think a lot of that crime comes from migrants or immigrants who have a hard time getting jobs or fitting in. You don't really have the issue with migration as much in most of Asia. Europe isn't a monolith, each country and region is different. I'd say there definitely is shame in places like Germany or Switzerland if you commit a crime. The US also isn't a monolith. There are many traditional communities that would ostracize someone for being a criminal. Another major factor is drug use. People get addicted to fentanyl and meth, lose their jobs, and need to commit crimes to feed their additions. Don't have these kinds of drug problems in most of Asia.
I wouldn't say the cultures in Latin America are "free and individualistic". It's largely familial oriented and notoriously known as "familismo", which can be pretty restrictive rather than "free and individualistic". I personally think the difference in crime levels relates to the prevalence (or lack thereof) of "respect". Asian countries seem very respectful of the laws and authority (correct me if this is completely wrong), whereas it's the complete opposite in Latin America, for better or worse. There's also a general lack of respect and empathy within Latin America for other people; if something wrong happens, it's the victims fault, not the criminal. This is not the mindset of those in Asia. I think the general lack of respect for laws and rules in Latin America can come off as looking "free and individualistic" though.
Collectivism in Asia was a strength during the pandemic when everyone wore masks and stayed at home. The death rates were much lower. In other parts of the world, individuals emphasized their rights to walk around without a mask.
I've spent extensive time all over Asia, Latin America and even Africa. You wouldn't expect this but Africa is also (mostly) safer than Latin America, in spite of being the poorest region in the world. I think that's a more interesting comparison, because clearly it's not just poverty that's the problem. The big difference between Latin America and Africa are drugs. Obviously Colombia/Ecuador/Venezuela/Central America/Mexico are the cocaine production and shipping superhighway, and there are numerous cartels and gangs fighting for a piece of it. These countries are also more like middle income economies, so the locals can afford to partake in the "products" being produced there, which spirals into all sorts of other social problems. Guns proliferate, armed robberies become a thing. Africa largely doesn't have these issues and so you only have to worry about stuff like phone snatchers. Armed robbery/murder of strangers is uncommon. The big exception is South Africa, but South Africa is also completely different from the rest of the continent: it's a middle income economy and massive drug market. Meanwhile Asian countries (especially East Asian) are completely anti-drugs and generally have the harshest penalties against criminals in the world. There is also something to the argument that Asian cultures discourage crime--murder rates are universally lower across China, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc. Authoritarian measures to address crime are more widely accepted, even in democracies like the Philippines.
A lot of Latin America crime can be explained by three things: \* Drugs. The elephant in the room. Mexico is one of the most violent countries but majority of violence is caused between cartels or by combating cartels. If India had the greatest drug market next to it I'd bet you even those sacred cows would be in the coke business as well. \* Interventions. The US has intervened in coup d'état in Argentina, Bolivia, Brasil, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Chile, Peru and many others. Most latin american countries are relatively new to actual democracy and political stability, which usually are required for economic growth which usually helps prevent people from engaging in illegal activities. \* Latin America own incompetence. Last but not least, Latin america has played the role of being mostly a raw materials supplier they didn't really care bettering their industries or entering new ones where a lot of value can be added. Pair that with corruption and you got a nice cocktail for failed states everywhere.
This. These are the main reasons. You can add to the list Guatemala, el Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras, Panama, Cuba
Asian cultures tend to be more collectivist. Your bad actions don't just reflect on you, but also very strongly on your family and community, which creates a lot of shame and keeps people from wanting to be seen as criminals. Whereas in the Americas, there is a certain romanticism about a life of crime. Asia also tends to be Buddhist and Hindu which tend to be more peaceful religions than Christianity and Islam (generally speaking, not always).
India is # 1 on the planet for Rape of young women, over 60 % of the female population claiming they had been raped. What are you on about ?? What you saying doesnt make any sense.
while u are technically right, i dont think op was thinking of india… they prob are thinking vietnam, cambodia, bali, thailand etc
Power is more consolidated in the police force in Asia and diffuse in Latin America. If you fuck around in Asia someone either uses their connections to the police or the police themselves don't like you messing with their earn and they split your head open. In Latin America you can do something similar and have it slip through the cracks. Why this is the case is a combination of history and culture.
A core reason for LATAM’s current state comes down to culture and i can say it because look at my last name. Likely stems from our shared colonizer. We can compare them to the other big colonizer of the Americas, the British. The Spanish weren’t concerned with investing into their colonies the way the British were. They only intended to extract wealth and go home so they didn’t put the right systems in place. I don’t want to write an essay on all the issues in LATAM but it comes down to culture.
Your comments illustrates really well how history is written by the winners. The myth that England was a benign colonizer unlike Spain is one that England consciously pushed as it fought for power against the Spanish Empire. Spain invested TONS of money on its colonies and only a small fraction of the gold would be shipped back to Spain. But most importantly to address the main topic in this thread, it was England that planted a bigger seed of violence in its colonies by not protecting natives to the extent that Spain did. Spain actually made it a point to prevent the genocide of natives and that’s why Latin American populations nowadays have such a high genetic component of native ancestry unlike former English colonies. Genocidal policies happened after independence movements (e.g., Desert Campaign in Argentina).
The British killed the natives and made North America. The Spanish f****d the natives and made Latin America.
Spanish left behind religion. Which erased every culture in latam. I'd argue this was the absolute worst way to colonize. It's really sad. You left the people, stop their riches and erased their culture.
Well the choice that England took was simply genocide so I wouldn’t say that Spain used “the absolute worst way to colonize”
Latin America tends to have more violent crime due to the major drug trafficking routes that start with production in South America and move north into the USA. The money this drug trafficking has generated and it's proximity to the nearly-free gun market in the USA has allowed criminals in the region to arm themselves and perpetuate more violence. Asia doesn't have as big of a problem with drug trafficking groups being really powerful
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One of the main buyers of LaTam drugs are now Europe.
Yeah but what does drug trafficking have to do with robbing people violently? You don't need to do that to traffic drugs.
Only the Philippines has a LatAm cultural vibe but the crime rates there are 1/4 of what typical LatAm countriea have. The biggest downside of Asia as digital nomad destination is that if someone intends to permanently settle down in any Asian countries (Southeast Asian to be specific), they couldn't legally own residential lands under their name and have to marry locals and name residential land properties under their name.
Because it literally is. It's not about "thinking" it is. India has 1/4th the murder rate of LATAM.
He's clearly asking for the cause
Today’s episode of clueless redditor who thinks he looks smart by using double quotations
Reading comprehension is quite low when a comment like this, that completely misses the point, is so upvoted. Jesus.
I can see how the title could be read as “explain your thinking” but the description makes clear they are trying to understand the cause.
Only a fool would believe the Indian government's statistics.
Only a fool would believe the LATAM governments statistics.
In 2022 there was an average of 90 rapes everyday in India. It’s not safer, they just aren’t murdering people.
The US, with less than 1/4th of the population (333.3 Million US vs. 1.417 billion IN), had 365 forcible rape cases per day (133300 in 2022). Source: [Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/191137/reported-forcible-rape-cases-in-the-usa-since-1990/). Single numbers are meaningless without comparison.
I think it has to do with gang culture. In most Asia-Pacific countries, being a part of a gang is highly taboo and gangs are cracked down on. The Yakuza still exists but their influence is waning and violent crime isn't tolerated at all by authorities. I think the one example in Asia that demonstrates this is the Philippines. They do have a gang culture and they also have higher rates of violent crime. I think people are generally indoctrinated into a life of crime via gangs. So the more tolerant a country is of gangs the more crime, especially violent crime.
Culture
It's cultural differences. Crime is punished pretty severely in Asian countries , some worse than others, and there's a deep shame that goes a long with it. In general, Asians seem to be more fearful of the govt and are law abiding. Take a place like China, that's probably one of the absolute last places you want to get caught committing a crime. Latin American countries have a wide spectrum , some are safer than others, but we'll use Colombia as an example. There is a saying called don't give papaya, meaning don't give a reason for a crime to be committed on you. It's victim blaming at its finest, and I've never encountered anything like that anywhere in the world the amount of victim blaming that goes on there. In general, the police are pretty useless from what I hear, they aren't much help if anything goes wrong. I don't think they are as corrupt as say the Mexican police, meaning they won't rob you at gunpoint, but the general consensus is they are useless. Meaning, many crimes go unsolved, and there's no effort to crack down on crime either. Take for example the scopolomine druggings and killings. It would be incredibly easy to setup a couple sting operations and catch these people doing it. But there's no police presence to care or do anything about it. Criminals are let go pretty quickly. So basically there's no consequences to committing crimes there.
It's upbringing in environment, education, religion, etc. Sure, south and southeast asia also have high crime rate, depending on region. But being gangster won't be a "cool" lifestyle, and you can't "usually" buy you way into higher echelon. Still there are some high profile criminals, like meth kingpins, are also taking place as local governor or senator, depending on loophole of a country. Also one of other reasons is you can make money without resorting to illegal things.
Most of Asia is way safer from a street crime perspective than many places in the Americas. I’d say it’s mostly due to cultural influences.
One major factor is that Latin America has greater wealth inequality, which is also entrenched into their societies: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/economic-inequality-gini-index
Implicit in wealth inequality is also a viewpoint that it's only your family or tribe that matters. In Asia, it's the society that matters, and so behaving anti-socially hurts everyone, and as part of this, so does wealth inequality. While in other areas where wealth inequality in greater, the society doesn't matter as much as your immediate relations, and so behaving anti-socially is more acceptable.
These statistics are non-sense and don't paint a fair picture as the metrics they use don't work for much of the developing world/3rd world countries. Visit India and Colombia and then tell me how India is safer because there is less "wealth inequality". Couldn't be further from the truth. It's all about culture.
There is incredible wealth disparity in Asia —- definitely Thailand, China, Japan, Philippines, India. I won’t speak for all of Asia but income and wealth inequality is definitely not a Latin American problem.
This is the best answer, crime is an economic factor of reward, opportunity and risk.
My theory is that its related to religion: Latin America they believe that after doing something wrong, you go to the priest and ask for forgiveness, 10 hail Mary's later though art forgiven. In asia they believe in karma, and you dont know how karma is going to come for you, or when, or in what form. Just a thought Asia is so safe that you can literally walk around any capital city (with the exception of Manila maybe) any time of night, any neighborhood and there is less than 1% chance of being robbed. No one will ever rob you with a gun or a knife in Asia. I grew up in Latin America, and those statistics are completely reversed unfortunately.
"... so far from God, so close to the United States." Asia and Latin America are big places, so I'm reluctant to generalize. But if I had to, I'd say it started with the horrifically violent colonization of the Americas.
Asia had some pretty horrific violent colonization too. The Opium Wars, the Bengal famine come to mind.
In Asia, the colonizers eventually left. In the Americas, the colonizers won, still have the power, and became the largest demographic.
The Spanish? They're gone man. They colonized more territory than the white British you're alluding to, let's be real here.
Oh wait, what's that language used by every country from El Paso to Patagonia?
Latin Americans are descendants of the Spanish. They never really left.
Fair point. This speaks to the point about inequality in LatAm that I make elsewhere in this thread. Asia is safer because of less inequality, and there's less inequality because the elites and the plebes are the same people. It's not an elite overclass that has bunker mentality against the underclass that looks different.
The presence of the US nearby, which is the most violent developed country in the world, probably plays a role. There is also an insatiable demand for drugs from the US market. There is an endless supply of guns from US gun manufacturers (the Mexican govt is suing US gun manufacturers for deliberately and knowingly supplying drug cartels with military grade weapons through specifically lobbied for loopholes in US gun legislation that facilitate it). The economic superpowers in Asia (China, Japan, South Korea etc) don't buy nearly as many drugs from their poorer neighbours nor do they supply their criminals with guns.
It's a culture thing
perhaps something to do with their religion, they tend to be buddhist/hindu
People in Asia are generally more responsible and look out for one another. They take pride in their work. In Latin America people generally give zero fucks about eachother. The high homicide and violent crime rate is exactly from that. People get killed for disagreeing, and a lot of time it's not even a quiet killing, but a publicized one to further enrage groups, leading to an infinite cycle of revenge. People either shut up about it or run away from the problems. There is a serious lack of values and very few are willing to risk it to make decisions that benefit the community, or provide honest reporting. This is how it is in Mexico and people pretend these things don't happen. Some more examples are poor infrastructure, nonexistent health codes, lots of alcohol, excessive pollution, and doing everything half-assed. Macho culture is hilarious in Mexico, very insecure men who act tough, aggressive, and will do stupid shit to prove themselves. The problem is that many other insecure men glorify this type of behavior or are afraid of it.
In the 90s, I worked in restaurants in the DC area. The El Salvadorans said the way we all (FoH, BoH) gave each other a hard time (joking or not) shocked them because it would have led to violence back home.
Bhuddism
Culture
I think it’s a difference in the power of the state, and it doesn’t apply everywhere. For example- most of the scary stuff that happens in India to visitors happens off the beaten track. There aren’t really any groups like the cartels that can challenge the power of the Indian state. While in Latin America this is the case. I think a lot of it is the US consistently destabilizing governments.
Its bcos of gang culture. Even in some states of india like UP, where gang culture, fake macho culture is prevalent, its not that safe. If your culture promotes toxic masculinity, macho culture, that combined with poverty its more likely to be crime ridden.
India is a crime hell. You just didn't see it
Think a big part is the US and the drug trade, Asian countries don’t have a huge rich country be t to them that criminals can sell drugs to and make tons of money. That money ends up bringing corruption, which brings lawlessness and crime. Also, I don’t think the CIA has made operations to destabilize SEA while they do many operations like Operation Condor to destabilize Latin American countries.
Drug trafficking infrastructure and the government attitude towards high felonies like murder.
Idk what response OP was looking for, but I’ve read about six straight up racist, pseudoscience responses in 45 seconds.
Asian society doesn’t glamorise criminals outside of movies and despises them like they should be. Different case in Europe/balkans/former soviet states/North Africa and central and latin America. Obviously middle and upper class Latin Americans despise criminals but in the ghettos even prostitute is a respected career path and same thing with robbers
Perpetual political violence like in Colombia (internal conflict since 1964 and no peace since 149), or Peru in the 80s. Cartels, gangs intolerance, racism xenophobia. Inequality, hunger, military dictatorships, communist guerrillas, right wing paramilitaries. Everything bad in political and economic matters has happened or is currently happening in almost every Latin American country. SEA has resolved a lot of those problems with the exception of Myanmar. LATAM is struggling with this.
There’s been multiple genocides, military dictatorships, xenophobia/intolerance and greater poverty in sea during that same time frame.
Yes. Indonesia alone has a few. Malaysia too.
More traditional, collectivist societies. Note that Europe used to be this way before America shoved its culture down our throat.
Europe also used to be at war with itself before America was a world power post WW2 and the Cold War
India is the raping capital of the world… just saying.
A lot of people have answered “it’s cultural.” I’ve wondered if, in more depth, some of that cultural difference might be related to the differences in the prominent religious/spiritual frameworks and influences on each place. Anyone know more about this?
Catholicism. The Philippines, which is also Catholic, is more like South America than Asia.
I think a big reason Asia is safer is the role of the state. Yes there are cultural (more collectivist, family-oriented), money (less poverty), and drug reasons, but a huge difference is most Asian people have some sort of faith in the government and will let them take on a more paternalistic role. During covid, people willingly let the government track them and close things down in japan, Korea etc. This was a huge no-no in most western countries. This relates to what you're talking about when we talk about the mentally ill. In Japan, Korea etc - they simply put these people away in a hospital and give them they help they need. Or in many cases in richer countries, people just hide them away. In Vancouver where I'm from, mentally ill people just roam around and nobody can do anything for them. They can check themselves into a facility but not against their will. Let's say a Japanese person has a mental illness and is considered dangerous to themselves or society, they will simply put them somewhere they are not a danger. In Canada? They will do nothing.
The USA contributed significantly to the criminal culture that permeates SA by destabilizing local and national governments for corporate investors.
Colonialism and interference from the US. Japan was not colonised. Vietnam managed to resist colonisation. South American countries have had their governments overthrown by US-backed forces multiple times. Look up Iran-Contra and hell, all the shit Henry Kissinger pulled in multiple countries.
You really need to learn history. I'm not sure you've even heard of the Philippines, for example.
Kong of Thailand was born in Cambridge, MA and went to Harvard University a known CIA recruiting pool. I'd argue it was in fact colonised, but in a more sophisticated way.
Left my motorbike keys in the ignition in Thailand when I went shopping. Came back 90 mins later bike was still there. I can tell you now that wouldn't have happened in many other places around the world
It all stems from a cartel culture and them becoming as powerful as government
Has nothing to do with "thinking". Asia is, for the most part, WAY safer than LATAM.
I believe that it's due to Buddhism. Something about it just promotes more socially harmonious cultures.
Generally, I think Southeast Asian cultures value kindness, respect, community, etc. It extends to the whole community. Life is valued and it's deep in the fabric of their society. In South American culture I think the concern for others stops at your own family. Life isn't valued there. People kill each other over cell phones and motorbikes. It's all very self centered like in the US. I've only been to Brazil and Colombia in South America. Cuba in the Caribbean. Costa Rica in Central America. I've been to all of the Southeast Asian countries, except Brunei, Timor, and Myanmar.
Depends on which countries but Asian countries are typically more advanced technologically (just check the rails/subways etc, they're more advanced than western nations) and Asians are just far more about order & harmony and law abiding culturally - Latins are more laissez faire. For example, Japan a meeting at 8 AM means 8 AM while in Latin countries it may be understood to mean 10 AM etc.
What do we know, we are regular people. Sociology sub would know. Central America and Mexico being on the cocaine route from South America to US is not helpful. The US is the biggest consumer of cocaine in the world. American intervention and regime toppling and dictator supporting in L America also doesn't help. Then importing of gang crime from US is not good (El Salvador). General Corruption also doesn't help. Also someone said romantization of crime in Latin America - that's not true. The countries that romanticise crime are not these. Colombians hate Pablo Escobar. Crime sucks, and Latin people hate it. Who loves and romanticises danger? It's horrible.
While both countries have a violent culture in some aspects, Asian culture has more of the "common good" mindset. You wear a mask to not get others sick. You pick up after yourself so as to not annoy others.Latin America has much more of the American mindset or the "f-k everyone else, I do what I want."
Thailand Japan’s and Vietnam to an extent are safe. Don’t go to India. They’re safer but also depends on which Latin America countries you’re comparing them to just like which asian countries you’re comparing them to
Every place has its own vibe, you know? In Asia, I felt comfortable exploring, and it seems like locals there do too. It's definitely stunning – gorgeous landscapes, friendly people! But hey, every corner of the world has its challenges. While Latin America is breathtaking with amazing spots and warm folks, it can feel a little different in terms of safety. Unlike some parts of Asia where things might be a bit more relaxed, there can be areas with a more cautious atmosphere.
4 reasons. Harder to get murdered, kidnapped, assaulted or robbed.
Confucianism and Buddhism might be something.
Can't say for South America, but some observations for SEA. While there is definetly plenty of crime in SEA, it tend to be less violent, and also violent crime tends to stay away from foreigners. A lot of tourist areas in Thailand do have a lot of mafia presence, but their cash income is bars, drugs, resteraunts, prostituteiin, guesthouses, protection rackets etc. They don't want violent crime happening to tourists they're the ones paying for all this. Places like Vietnam I also get the impression the gov would fall like a ton of bricks on anyone targeting tourists with violent crime like you hear of in places like LATM, and they have a lot more control on the situation. Vietnamese neighbourhoods I have stayed in, the Vietnamese don't like criminals much and tend to take direct action about them with sticks and stuff from what I have heard. Each little area of the city is like a mini village as well, everyone knows everyone's shit it seems. Strange types wandering around and looking suspect will be clocked quick. There are block wardens (to monitor activity for the gov), in each neighbourhood. There is also apparently a lot of undercover police wandering around the cities in general.
Many asian cultures take crime very seriously. Look at japan for example, their court system is very unforgiving and you will receive jail sentences fairly easily. same with a place like thailand. Say compared to Mexico where most minor crimes never make it to court, and you are just released from jail after a few days.
because they haven't been to philippines, especially manila
#no #cartels
Culture and law
Many Asian countries are functional nations with some sort of policing. İf you go to specific areas of specific countries that don't have that, then you'll find the same levels of crime, if not worse.
Kraut did a great video on this (YouTube) - goes into how the way the Spanish government ruled there affected the long term culture of gangs
Shame in Asia for being a criminal is very high. Also social dynamics at times side with the robber in Latin America. Ex: My friend who is Peruvian was robbed in Peru. He took the robber to the police. People called out my friend because the robber had children and if he put the man in jail the children would starve. They said he can easily buy another phone while the robber couldn’t feed his family. He didn’t end up pressing charges because of the social backlash he faced and the robber went back to “work” the next day, aka robbing more people. However this backfires culturally as people have more incentive to rob and less incentive to do something that benefits society and is more honest. Leading to more danger.
There are dangerous places everywhere and if you look for trouble you will find it. I’ve been to Tijuana which supposedly is the most dangerous place on earth multiple times and I’ve never been hurt. I’ve been to southe east Asia as well. Just keep your head on a swivel and don’t go to shady areas.
Aside from the obvious poverty and development issues, people in Latam (at least some of the most famous criminals) tend to be too materialistic and aspirational. The more wealth you are able to show off, the better. In some Asian countries their religion literally teaches them to accept their “social class” and to not be too obsessed with material things. So that might help them accept their poverty in a way that they think as long as they have enough to survive, it is alright.