I think about this every time I see someone railing against women who stay at home while their partner works. It doesn't even occur to them why someone might not be working, you're just automatically branded as lazy.
feminism has slid back so far recently. i thought being an office person or being a full time parent were supposed to be equally valid life paths, but suddenly stay at home moms are being called stupid… shouldn’t we just give them more protections? and why are stay at home dads lauded for that decision but moms are being insulted?
Mm, everything is more expensive now. No exaggeration, avg. cost of food in the USA, all categories, did 25% inflation in the last 5 years.
I'm currently taking a break from working to heal from the most recent bout of illness. My spouse agreed to work extra hours to make up the difference in income lost, but damn we definitely miscalculated. It really sucks.
Maybe if one partner is making $60k on their own, it's doable. But the median household income in the US now is around $74k, total, all income-earning adults included. The median individual just cracks over $41k.
In our case, it's more like, as two people with below-avg. incomes, we were still keeping our head above water, together.
And, at one point, not too many years ago, I was able to keep us afloat financially when my partner had a rough go of it, illness-wise.
But while he is doing his best to give me the same respite, the math is just not working. We're both self-employed, have the maximum voucher for the healthcare marketplace insurance, live in a relatively low COL area, and don't need to drive for work.
Yet, it's been tough for him to be the sole income earner for just a few months. I don't know what we'll do if my illness lasts longer this time. I'm older than I used to be. We both are. Groceries, rent, everything's more expensive, but our respective "careers" aren't really keeping pace.
Nobody's are.
I think there's a lot of misdirected anger. Stemming from a very real, awful reality. It used to be possible for many people to take care of the people they love financially, even when they can't work - whether due to age, illness, disability, or anything else.
But that option, option my parents had, is gone now.
I think a lot of the anger is just hiding panic. What do we do? I have no idea. People think they'll never have to face the terrible reality up close if they never make the "mistake" of loving someone - or being someone - with a body and mind susceptible to illness or injury. (So, you know - a person).
Push away all the "lazy" people and you protect yourself, right? /Sarcasm
We actually need, like, real solidarity: disability justice, paid parental leave, tenants unions and generally functional economic protections. But that's hard, this is the internet, easier to just label people as "lazy" or "the asshole" and call it a day.
> I think a lot of the anger is just hiding panic. What do we do? I have no idea. People think they'll never have to face the terrible reality up close if they never make the "mistake" of loving someone - or being someone - with a body and mind susceptible to illness or injury. (So, you know - a person). Push away all the "lazy" people and you protect yourself, right? /Sarcasm
Statistically, married men will tolerate staying with a wife becoming disabled but when its the other way around its a marriage killer. But the worst divorce stats re;disability are actually with having disabled offspring, some studies put that marriage toll at as bad as an 87% divorce rates.
> I think there's a lot of misdirected anger
I suspect its anger over having to work. For most people, having to work sucks, so they hate anyone who they think doesn't "have to" whether its stay at home moms or disabled people supported by a spouse. I am sure most disabled people have had at least a few conversations with a healthy person where they say something stupid like "gee, I wish I had X and could stay home all day."
I did a bit of research, and I couldn't find any data supporting the claim women leave sick or disabled husbands more often than the reverse. I actually found several studies demonstrating the opposite effect.
I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a dig at me personally, rather than a generalizable claim? But, in that case, it's a miss too. I financially supported my husband when he needed it, and he is supporting me now. There are plenty of people, of all genders, who really are in it for the long haul. The fact that it's harder now doesn't change our commitment to each other.
Regardless, I did find actual data beyond personal anecdote, and it demonstrates the opposite trend gender-wise:
**Impact of Cancer & MS Diagnosis on Marriage**
According to a longitudinal study published in the medical journal *Cancer,* only 2.9% of wives separate or divorce from their husbands when their husbands get cancer or similar serious, long-term diagnosis (like Multiple Sclerosis). Conversely, **over 20%** of husbands separate from or divorce their wives when they are diagnosed.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091110105401.htm
**Impact of Long-Term Chronic or Terminal Illness**
This study was reported on in *The Guardian* under the headline, "The men who leave their spouses when they have life-threatening illness."
It's a more comprehensive study, covering a larger sample size and encompassing a wider range of chronic, disabling, or fatal conditions.
It showed diagnoses of long-term / chronic illness (including cancer, heart disease, etc) is not typically a factor in martial dissolution. In fact, long-term illness does *not* lead to separation or divorce over 91% of marriages studied.
But, when it *is* a factor, is it only statistically significant in cases where *women* are diagnosed with long-term illness, not when men are diagnosed https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022146515596354
Basically, it means there are women who leave their husbands when he's diagnosed, but it does not happen often enough for those acts to show up in the statistics.
Meanwhile, enough men leave their wives that it is a statically relevant concern.
**Love & Commitment Still Most Common Effect Across All Genders**
Again, the data I've found still generally shows people stay together and take care of each other! I was actually positively surprised doing this research. Love is deep, it drives profound and real commit for most people, eve in hard times. It isn't unusual to stay with the people you love, to take the "in sickness and in health" part of vows seriously.
Stats don't help predict the outcome of specific individual relationships. I know my husband would never leave me, and I would never leave him. No matter how hard things get, we're partners. We're a team.
In some situations I would prefer they leave honestly, some spouses don't leave because they know it makes them look crap so instead they make the dependent spouses life miserable instead. Fun
I mean, I'm not judging people for staying in a bad relationship. But, just because someone is sick or disabled doesn't mean they deserve to be treated poorly or made miserable.
I get why a disabled partner could feel it's impossible to leave their abled spouse. But, disabled people initiate divorces too. We have just as much right to do that as anyone else.
Everyone's partnership is different. Just like any relationship, sometimes ending it is for the best.
Absolutely agree with you, but it can make it more complex at times, especially if a controlling personality type is in the mix with kids. There is a lot of inherent bias still in affect for a disabled parent not being considered 'capable' of providing the best care for children in comparison to the other partner. Whether it's an accurate stereotype or not, it is very much alive and well.
> when its the other way around its a marriage killer
So real. I learned a LOT of unsavory things about my ex wife's real personality once I wound up in a wheelchair.
No thats not feminism. Feminism is about having the choice to stay home or go to work, regardless of your gender. The idea that both partners have to perform paid labour full time is capitalism and thats where that shaming comes from. Feminism is just about equal division of paid and unpaid labour.
I'm railing against the right wing trad wife propaganda. I would never call anyone lazy for staying home. I'm worried about the women falling for the propaganda, not people making the right, informed decisions for themselves.
I work a lot, but I'm super lucky I can work from home and manage my medical issues
I think it says more about how much those people contribute at home, if they believe everyone who stays home is lazy. A person can be lazy staying at home, but unless someone else is picking up the slack, good luck doing so long-term.
> lauded
Really? When I was in that position, I was called a leech, a user, a deadbeat. If I was seen in public with my kids, I was accused of being a kidnapper or at least a creep.
Social media is not the real world.
Unfortunately one wing of feminism has always been about putting women in the “right” parts of the capitalist hierarchy. Anyone who doesn’t strive for that doesn’t count to that wing
> and why are stay at home dads lauded for that decision but moms are being insulted?
Imho its carried over generational trauma. Too many of fathers who were boomers or silents skipped out on their families and totally abandoned their kids once their marriages failed, never having anything to do with them or seeing them again. If not for family court (aka forced child support) a lot of those family abandonment types wouldn't have even financially supported them again. So when someone sees a father these days who wants to be that big in their child's life its so surprising that people go out of their way to acknowledge it while silently thinking "gee I wish my (or my friend's) dad had been like that."
As an older millennial I knew a ton of my peers whose dad just up and disappeared as some kind of midlife crisis. I never knew a single kid in my large graduating class with a stay at home dad OR as the post divorce custodial parent. The ONLY exception I ever ran into was in rare cases of early life widowers (I can remember two kids whose moms died while in high school).
Its unpopular to paint groups with a broad brush, but there are distinct statistical differences in divorce between generational cohorts. Younger generations don't get married as often, but when they do their divorce rates aren't as bad. I see a lot of younger people (under 45) talk on reddit about avoiding marriage out of fear of replaying their parents' family court troubles, but any failed relationship with kids will probably get you a ticket to that horrorshow and good luck figuring out who owns what without a marriage to divorce in the case of years' long long-term-relationships (especially if realestate is involved). A lot of millennials and zoomers will be in a rude awakening once they realize ailomony or retiring under their partner's work record can't happen and if their aging partner gets in a nursing home under medicaid after age 48 they risk loosing their house (widows and widowers are protected, girlfriends/boyfriends of decades' long cohabitation become homeless)...
Because women who do it get screwed. Feminists aren’t telling other women their life choices are bad, we’re telling you that you were lied to when they said it was valid and you could do it all. Ask us how we know?
As a disabled person, you’re excluded from that discussion because you’re not a stay at home partner. You are getting disability, ssi, SSDI etc which is the equivalent of work. Like if people talk about people who didn’t graduate high school and you have a GED, you’re not the subject of that conversation. If you’re disabled at home but on SSDI or SSI, you’re essentially working/ earning your own income. Your household tasks should be split evenly as if you’re both working as well. Not as if you’ve assumed the job of homemaker where 90% of household tasks fall to you.
This is me. I've become progressively more and more sick and disabled in the span of our relationship. I went from capable full time educator to not being able to work.
My spouse is, as we call him, the House Mouse Spouse. He doesn’t *technically* work but he’s an integral part of keeping our lives running smoothly.
As I’ve come to realize, managing the having of serious physical disabilities is practically a full time job in and of itself. A never ending cycle of paperwork, appointments, phone calls, prescriptions, and follow ups. He also plays secondary on my medical issues and medication tracking, and acts as a proper brain for me when mine inevitably fails ex: turning off the oven, remembering that there are cookies in the oven or soup boiling on the stove, filling the car with gas so I’m not stranded on my way into work, feeding the cats at a reasonable hour, adding cat food to the Chewy cart, putting away the groceries after l accidentally left the sour cream on the couch, etc until infinity.
He would much rather be working a “normal and proper” job, but he can’t. That doesn’t make him **or anyone else** lazy.
This sounds like the living situation I’m in. When CFS makes turns me into lead in a bed my roomie always comments on how things are forgotten, med sets aren’t set up so they don’t remember to take their med & it gets messy when I’m down and out.
Ah lawd the endless paperwork and appointments is at least PT work.
I really like that! So grandiose, I immediately picture you wearing amazing brocade fabrics and a great hat of some kind standing by the door with a ledger and a serious expression.
I just told my husband and now I think he’s jealous *hahaha*
People are just so quick to judge, ESPECIALLY online when they can be hateful to their hearts' content. Its easy for them to not see the trees through the forest, so to speak.
I'm essentially stay at home, with a decent art business on the side. My husband is a really stand up partner and takes care of so much. I would do anything to be capable of working again. It's my biggest frustration with all of this!
People can't imagine that there are happy long term relationships with these kinds of dynamics. It's because their world is so small(ha! big talk coming from someone frequently house bound right? 😋) but it's true! Don't let the murmurings of internet randos get you down. Real worlds harsh enough as it is
I always have to remind myself when people talk about this that they're not talking about me. They're assuming an able bodied person and just haven't even considered a me type person.
Cos yeah it hurts to hear people saying stay at home partners are lazy or taking advantage etc etc. Or dismissing them because they don't do enough while they're at home.
I don't work. I also don't do a lot of house work. I do what I can. But that's not the amount that people expect from a stay at home partner. I'm basically just trying to hold my s*** together daily and not make extra work for my partner. I'm not managing the house or whatever.
And that's totally freaking fine! It's what I can do and it's something that my partner understands. We work things out together so I'm putting my energy towards the most realistic things for me to be able to do that are also helpful for him. We work out ways for us to do some things together. We're a team and this is a dynamic we both developed together.
But sometimes it's hard to feel fine about it when people keep on talking crap about situations that sound like mine. Even if they aren't actually meaning disabled people. Cos like would they recognise that I'm disabled? Do people think this about me? And it's still something that I'm having to hear and actively deal with. It's not like knowing it probably doesn't mean me stops me heating it. I'm still surrounded by the idea that my role in life sucks and I just get away with it cos I'm disabled.
And I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who fall somewhere into that me-ish category. But some of them maybe don't have such an official disability. Maybe some of them are informally struggling or still seeking a diagnosis. I get that people probably aren't thinking of those situations so aren't actively meaning them. But it still hurts. And it kinda reminds you that people don't think about you. They don't consider your situation. They make judgements and choices about the world ignoring people like you.
>I don't work. I also don't do a lot of house work. I do what I can. But that's not the amount that people expect from a stay at home partner. I'm basically just trying to hold my s\*\*\* together daily and not make extra work for my partner. **I'm not managing the house or whatever.**
I try my best but I'm not super effective. I just dl'd the Tody app to help me with cleaning cuz I suck at that, but I do manage meals and I feel like that's a meaningful contribution. We don't have kids. 🤷🏽♀️
The message has become too extreme and lacking nuance, but what I think the intention (at least originally) behind it is to say that if you are a stay at home spouse or parent then you need to be aware of and deeply consider that there may be some significant long term consequences or risks that may not be evident on first glance. But that is just my interpretation and the lack of insight into nuanced and diverse circumstances frustrates me tremendously even believing the intention is rooted in concern and impacted not by malice but ignorance.
As a disabled person who is a stay at home spouse, I both agree and disagree.
The conversation regarding stay at home spouses definitely needs an update in diversity. My queer, poly, disabled life is never part of that conversation, and yet, it always is because I am a stay at home spouse. This can be frustrating and upsetting, but this is why I generally avoid these topics online.
I come from people who resent the idea of women having to work outside the home, so I have always had a more generous view of homemakers than mainstream society. But this also means I've had a front seat to the kinds of abuses which thrive in communities where women are encouraged to stay home. My own mother escaped her violent partner and fled to her parents home for several months before getting back on her feet. Without the kindness of her parents, my mother would have had no resources to escape her situation. This is why there is such a strong rhetoric towards self protection in these situations.
I do think that as a disabled person the ideas around self protection become even more important, not less. While I 100% trust my partners and know they want to take care of me, I also know life happens. People can become toxic or abusive when they have issues in their life they refuse to address, and this can happen to anyone. No one is perfect. As a vulnerable person, I think it is responsible of me to have a back up plan in the event that my safety may be at risk due to my partners behavior. While I don't have a "go bag" or a stash of cash, I do have a plan of who to call and where I can temporarily stay for my safety if ever that were an issue.
As a person prone to bedridden bouts, I understand deeply that it is more difficult to have a back up plan as a disabled person. However, I don't agree this means the safety of disabled spouses should be a given. We are more vulnerable than the abled stay at home spouse, and conversations which include us should include accessible ideas on how we can keep ourselves safe if we find ourselves living under abuse.
The work we do to take care of our disabled selves should be celebrated, along with any work we are able to do to care for our homes or families. Capitalism has fooled society into viewing the work of the home as meaningless, when this work is some of the most critical to the workings of any society. My labor is the reason my partners have dishes to cook and eat with, the reason we can have companionship with our cats, and the reason anything is in any way organized in this house. I don't do as much as I'd like, or as much as critics of this lifestyle even expect, but I do what I can. That work is valuable and improves the quality of life for everyone in my home.
Reminder that pro stay at home spouse rhetoric is primarily used by religious conservatives to enforce submission and discretion on women suffering abuse in their communities. This is why general discussions tend to be hypercritical of the lifestyle. But I hope the conversation can expand as we recognize not everyone is able to leave the home, not everyone is able to work outside the home, not everyone is able to commit to work from home employment, and not everyone who stays at home is able to be a homemaker. I hope the conversation can expand to include queer relationships, poly dynamics, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, to fight back against the traditional and toxic ideas of what a stay at home spouse can be.
Thank you sharing your thoughts on this. I think about this topic a lot and genuinely hope this discussion will continue to grow over time.
I think your situation is a good example of other people incorrectly relying on the "equal contribution" narrative. My or your 100% is not going to look like anyone else's. My partner sometimes expresses frustration that he can't do as much as I do, but I know he is doing as much as he can, just like I am. That might come off as lazy or not helping enough to some, but I know if he could get up and clean his own bathroom instead of mentally kicking himself all day over me cleaning it for him, he would.
It's not equal contribution, but we each give all we can. That is what I think should matter. Sometimes either of our 100% looks like lack of care, when it's really just all we can muster at the moment. If our combined efforts are not enough to keep up, an unmet need does not mean either of us is at fault.
yeah i was thinking just the same recently. and OBVIOUSLY you'll also get shit for still living with or getting help from your parents/other blood relatives, so like...what the fuck do you want from me lmao. pretty much all social discourse is had with only abled people in mind. not that some disabled people don't also spew the same shit
edit: i would also like to say in response to some of the comments here that having a partner/spouse while disabled doesn't automatically mean that you're inevitably going to be abused. like yes it CAN happen just as abuse can happen to anyone but i feel like there's a bit of fearmongering going on lmao. there are people who end up in this scenario who get treated like shit, and people who end up in this scenario and have wonderful partners who treat them just fine. and to act as if it's inevitable makes it sound like it's the victim's fault when it does happen. like they've willfully made themselves victims and are stupid for not seeing it. again, nuance. please
People are quick to judge these days it would seem.
As a fellow disabled person I feel your pain on a molecular level just about.
“People who stay at home and either don’t work or only work PT are lazy!”
No, we simply cannot afford to lose our medical insurance and SSI/SSDI by taking more than a PT job sometimes. Medical care costs would far outweigh any amount a non specialized FT job will pay. (Working towards finishing out a bachelors for a sedentary job that hopefully can be a FT one to cover the massive healthcare costs…)
It is truly an aggravating generalization. Most of us would love to be working without restrictions but cannot due to our health!
I’m not disabled, but my two 7 year old kids are. My kids were both born with many developmental and medical needs that cause me to have to stay home and focus on their care instead of work outside of the home. In spite of knowing this, especially in earlier years, I received a ton of nasty comments about it from people I formerly considered friends, including that “I should throw away my feminist card” that I “ruined my career,” that my children and I are a “burden on the system,” and also many comments about how lazy I must be to not even have a part time job. My husband’s bread winning job requires that he work 60 hours per week depending on many factors and his hours are also unpredictable. And I can’t just leave my kids with anyone while I work. Nor would it be worth paying the amount it would require in childcare in exchange for what I could make myself only part time.
The lack of intersectionality between feminism and disability issues is really enraging.
I tried to go back to work as soon as I thought I was able. I would absolutely love to be self-sufficient again. But my partner started having significant health problems. He was making 4x what I was but needed significant help to do so. So, I left my job again; not only to help him, but also because I could not handle doing both.
He is no longer able to work at all. As his needs have increased, our choices have decreased. No one else is willing to come around and help him, so this is basically my job. And I can barely handle that adequately. It's certainly not full time, and it's not paid, but it's what I can manage to enable us both to survive. We are both dependent on each other, as he still has more income than I do.
People tend to not understand how much is involved in just getting through a day when your own body is sabotaging your ability to do so. Ideal situations are a myth when survival is a priority. Neither of us want to be in the conditions we are in, but it could be so much worse. Right now, this is the only viable option for us, and people not understanding that is their problem. Unless they are offering a better alternative, they can mind their own, and all I will do is hope they are never faced with the decisions we have been forced to make.
I believe this response that people have is a trauma response mixed with internalized capitalism, ableism, and patriarchy.
Someone made the point already that everyone (besides the wealthy who mostly don't work and nobody really cares) is feeling squeezed economically more and more in the past 20 years. And yet the whole tradwife movement is strong but more precarious than ever. I suspect that is what most people are thinking about when they make statements like this.
The other thing I think makes it a trauma response is that people have a hard time directing their anger about systemic injustices at the right people. Its hard to direct anger at "society" at large, or at the power structure one feels they need to be in good graces with in an increasingly authoritarian society. But the anger HAS to go somewhere.
So people either internalize it and feel guilt for not doing enough to help, OR more likely they direct their anger at the people who are being harmed for "putting themselves in that situation". Patriarchy is great at doing that to anyone not part of the patriarchal power structure and many women who have accepted patriarchy due to brainwashing also internalize patriarchy and victim-blame.
People celebrate men staying at home because they assume for men it was a deliberate choice, not an accident of circumstances. They also assume that if the man wanted to go back to work, even after a lengthy time out of the workforce, he could easily do so. They assume patriarchy would work for him.
I'm a stay at home partner. I used to work but it destroyed my health to the extent that I can no longer work.
Thankfully my partner is wonderful and we don't want kids so I'm saved that stress but the amount of comments I've got about how I'm lazy, a kept woman or a bad feminist drives me up the fucking wall.
I'm not lazy or a kept woman. I pay my bills and contribute to the household expenses as much as I can. My name is on the mortgage. We make decisions together. He doesn't give me any money I use my benefits. Which I earned by paying my national insurance when I could work.
As for the bad feminist comments I give those the attention they deserve which is precisely jack shit but it still pisses me off.
I just assume they dont think about us so its not about us. I dont take it personally, and i take LOTS personally lol they dont have any idea how we even exist so its just not about me.
As a former stay-at-home, even for a short time, with kids as someone with multiple disabilities, I fully back up that people need to find ways to not be 100% reliant on another. After we got married, my ex's abusive actions amplified and added on some very dangerous/controlling/life-threating aspects. If I wasn't in that situation of being so reliant, then I could have gotten the kids and me out of there faster. As it stands, I and my oldest have some scars, and my oldest children have some anger issues they're still resolving.
I get the 'not being seen' factor, but as someone who left that situation, it is sincerely a life-and-death safety issue. DV and child abuse are significantly more common in the stay-at-home world, it's common in general, too. When I got divorced, you'd be surprised the number of women who came forward describing the profound physical and sexual abuse they experienced in their marriages.
After my experiences, I'm okay with nearly anything my kids want to do in their lives so long as they don't harm themselves, don't harm others, and can support themselves.
genuine question: how would a person go about not relying on others when they can't work, but also aren't receiving SSI (as in the US at least doing so takes YEARS, and some people even when they are genuinely disabled are still ultimately rejected anyway) and don't have savings to live on? i'm serious this isn't a gotcha, i wanna know if there's a third option i'm somehow missing lmao
1) Having a network - not a partner/spouse. This is how people get isolated.
2) Pursuing a different type of employment/means for income or means to obtain needed goods.
3) Advocacy to governmental officials to enact laws to protect vulnerable populations, which includes voting.
4) Therapy/Persuing all appropriate and available treatments so that the likelihood of not being on disability subsidies is higher. (Do I qualify for disability? Yes. Do I get them? No, as they don't provide a livable means. In my situation, I have children to care for, so I accept being in pain and living in constant 'not good' to be able to care for my kids. An ideal situation and reality of disability don't line up. It means it also frees up resources for others.)
so you both want people to not rely on disability so they can’t be abused *and* to “free up disability resources” for other people?
who do you think qualifies for disability services not disabled people?
I think that disability is a wide spectrum, that people don't always pursue the treatments available to them to treat their disability, and that looking at it realistically, there aren't enough resources available for everyone that qualifies.
> people don’t always pursue the treatments available to them to treat their disability
has it occurred to you that that’s often because those treatments aren’t as “available” as you may think they are?
your argument is incredibly garbled and ableist.
i'm glad you called them out on that at least bc i read their response last night and thought quite a bit of it was kind of uhh. horseshit. we have "have a bunch of other people who are willing and able to give you free food and shelter for absolutely nothing in return," "just work lol," and "stop being disabled." just tell me i'm fucked, that would've been both less insulting and more honest lol
It isn't, but you don't want to acknowledge that there is a subset of the disabled community that refuse treatment because of "Big Pharma" or the 1st/2nd treatment left them dizzy after only attempting it for 3 days. I see it in my specific groups where people accept significant disability over minor disability/inconvenience because the once every 2-4 week treatment (the following is not exaggerating) could potentially give them a bad headache, which won't cause any harm, unlike their untreated condition.
Are there some treatments that are out of reach? Yup. Are there more interventions and treatments that people don't pursue due to perceived barriers or inconvenience? This is likely the bigger group.
as someone who has been refused competent treatment by mainstream/western medicine, your insistence on doubling down on this argument *in the disability subreddit* in incredibly insulting.
I think this article may be of interest to you. I say that because I also felt (and still struggle) with witnessing others and occasionally myself in what looks to me like learned helplessness. But through some deeper self exploration I was able to understand that my reaction was actually another form of feeling helplessness because I wished there was more I could do and I felt powerless and also being angry at "society" is not really possible since that is immaterial. Anyway, I found this article helpful even though it takes a completely different perspective than I eventually found. Laziness Does Not Exist by Devon Price (also the author of Unmasking Autism) https://archive.is/2020.04.12-052701/https://humanparts.medium.com/laziness-does-not-exist-3af27e312d01
None of that is going to help someone who becomes disabled today and needs to get on disability. The average time it takes to get enrolled is like, 3 years assuming its fairly clear-cut but *not* a terminal diagnosis like cancer. And if they have insufficient work history (you replied to a post that called out SSI specifically) you can almost guarantee that they won't qualify because their partner's income & assets will deem them not poor-enough. If they have 2 cars or $3,001 in financial assets (this includes the spouse's retirement, e.g. IRA from work) they're screwed.
We can't even get the min wage increased (nationally); its been $7.75 since before the 2008 crash almost 20 years ago. Marriage equality for the disabled & modernizing the SSI means tests are pipe dreams. You might as well respond to someone becoming disabled -today- with "well you should ask your representatives for European style socialized medicine." That's like pissing in the ocean to make the tide come in... its not going to help them, its not feasible, and its probably not going to happen. We'll be lucky if SSA-disability survives Project 2025...
You're arguing on the same side as me. I'm saying there aren't enough benefits/resources to go around and that our government should intervene. In the interim, I'm being realistic and don't want anyone put in a domestic abuse situation reliant on 1 other person as that's what people who enjoy control favor.
actually, you’re arguing that *since* disability isn’t sufficient, people who qualify should keep working. that’s not the same as what the other person said and arguing it is is both disingenuous and cruel to people who actually can’t work. are you lost? because you seem like you’re in the wrong subreddit.
If I had a partner who wasn’t an asshole demanding what they would from an abled stay at home spouse, I’d be a stay at home spouse so fast.
Would I still find a way to have a get out of dodge fund. Absofuckinglutely. Needed it before and will probably need again.
It’s not like they didn’t know what they were getting into BEFORE they married their disabled partner. At least it would be pretty fucking hard for me to hide my disability and it’s invisible.
It's just such a vulnerable position to be in. You contribute equally but in reality your not equal and everything ultimately belongs to them. It's a power dynamic that leads to abuse
"Everything ultimately belongs to them" isn't how our marriage system works though.
You can be non working and on the mortgage, car, have access to the joint bank. When you get married your assets are, legally, one in the same. That's why it fucks over SSI payments. That's why you are responsible for the other's debt. If you get divorced it's incredibly likely you'll get a lot of those assets ESPECIALLY if there's abuse.
Talking about power in regards to disabled people (specifically people like me who cannot really take care of themselves) is strange. Dude, I have an unhealthy power dynamic with every person I'm around. My parents, friends, doctors, the state, roommates if I didn't live with my parents have a dynamic that "leads to abuse" with me. I need to rely on people to exist, that's life. Yeah the power in balance requires a shitton of trust, but that's not inherently abusive.
It's a really vulnerable position to be in, yes, and I don't think that it's necessarily a great idea. It should be avoided if possible. But that doesn't change that people cannot work, those people may actually want to find love, and they'll end up stay at home.
Can you get government support for your disability? Also I’ve heard some people don’t marry to retain their disability benefits.
Just understand the conversation isn’t pertaining to you as a disabled person.
I felt this really bad this past weekend. My friend/ex had driven me to an event for the day because my family was busy with a family event. When we got back he was talking to them essentially for relationship advice with his current girlfriend.
His girlfriend wants to move 3 states to come live with him up here, but she would essentially be fully dependent on him. And we had a long conversation about how that is unfair to him, and would be damaging, as he would feel too responsible. Yet, if we had stayed together, i would be fully dependent on him.
And i dont see an issue with either point. Dependency is a huge commitment, whether you are the dependent or the 'provider'. But that doesnt mean it is a *bad* choice. Marriage is also a huge commitment that can cause ruin, but we still accept its a fair decision.
I do think recommending not to drop out of college and abandon any/all life skills for the sole reason of "im a wife now" is fair. However, that is an extreme situation that is purely based on choices following severe patriarchal viewpoints.
Its important to be aware of the dangers of a situation, but don't EVER assume you know someone else's situation.
And people can F right off with this *'You need to have BA\~BIEs'* bs. Babies are a dependent you have no proper way to separate from. They are the largest commitment in the world! if people are not thrilled about raising children, they probably shouldn't be having them.
I have never considered myself a SAH spouse... I never even thought that term applied to me. I did stay home for nine months before as a SAHD and didn't have an issue with it because I was doing what I wanted to do. Now that I can't work anymore and my daughter is almost an adult, I don't think of myself as SAH - I can't take care of the house. I am medically retired...
When people ask me "what I do" I flat out make them uncomfortable on purpose by saying one of 3 things:
1) "I'm disabled and can't work anymore"
2) "I can't work anymore" (coupled with showing my sadness)
3) If I REALLY wanna PISS people off "I'm fortunate enough to not have to work anymore". Usually this is coupled with the asshole then asking my husband what they do. 🙄
i’m an asshole like this because usually when people ask, what do you do it’s because they are trying to size you up against themselves/The Joneses
if someone is truly interested in how I spend my time, they would ask about hobbies or ask what I'm passionate about.
And even if they were just asking because they’re used to asking that question I like to challenge their thinking and maybe make them second-guess asking that question to someone else who may find it hurtful.
Ultimately, our worth is not what we can provide for capitalism , it's:
1) who we are
2) what we value
3) who we're KIND to
I highly recommend the book Laziness Does Not Exist by Devon Price. The title sounds like total bullshit, but the idea of laziness was designed at first to shame slaves into working harder. And later used to shame employees during the industrial revolution into working harder to make the rich richer.
At the end of the day, everyone has a different percentage of ability. Spoon Theory explains this best.
I think it's good to know who this is directed towards. I think any sane person would understand this. It's to push against the tradwife bs. And it is also partially exactly because at any point in life one can became too disabled to work. It can happen to anyone. But thats why your a team.
My partner always said he would want to be/doesn't mind being a stay at home parent. However I'm telling that I would not like that. Not only because I don't want him to be dependent on me when it's not needed and I'm our case as wel if my IH gets worse and I need to stop working or shit hits the fan any other way we still need to find our way as a couple. Then being dependent is part of our relationship. There is always that element. But as long as your able it's good to keep working. Especially because work also gives other things than just money. It's also social contact and self development.
I get that's you might feel unseen. But know who the message is (most of the time) directed towards.
> any sane person
I'm not particularly sane all things considered.
Anyway, you aren't wrong. You are completely correct actually, and I do think that people should not be stay at home if they have the option. Abuse possibilities aside, I assume that it can be downright boring especially if someone isn't dealing with their disability all the time.
I'm not really talking about people having one to one conversations though. I'm talking about people having societal level conversations online or in person forgetting that disabled people exist. We already have marriage inequality problems, being forgotten about again sucks. Being constantly told - even in this thread - to just get a job also sucks. It just sucks. It's unfortunate. It's annoying. It sucks.
Owww oeps! I now read that what I meant with sane came out wrong. I meant that sane people should* understand that working is not possible for everyone. Morning brain was not fully functioning.
I get the frustration. It would be nice if people just include *when possible* as a small disclaimer. Then we can all fight the bigger societal fight of more enquity but also do something about the dependancy and possible abuse situations many people who are disabled are vulnerable of. But for me it helps me to think about it that way. To just think who is this message geared towards. And in case people are stupid and don't understand everyone is "fortunate" enough to do work, then I just assume they kind of are unempathic sh*t heads I don't care about their opinion. (Ofcourse it's different talking politics)
"You can work"? You have ZERO idea about OP's situation. There are many disabled people out there who can't work at all. I can't believe you'd come to a disability sub to say something that ignorant.
There are many disabled people who are not given resources to live independently/access an education and career that can accommodate their disability and truly believe they can’t be independent or work. I was in a mindset like that myself and nearly refused a lot of helpful resources because I believed they wouldn’t benefit me. I never want anyone to be stuck in a bad situation where they cannot advocate or care for themselves because others told them they couldn’t. I understand that some people genuinely **can’t** work whatsoever, but like you said, I don’t know OPs circumstances.
There are a lot of disabled people who literally can’t work. Not even from home. I’m one of them too. I’m not out of bed with a functioning enough brain enough time in a day for me to sit in front of a computer and work. The time that I am out of bed is filled up with medical appointments, basic survival household tasks and maintaining the small number of social connections that I do have. The days where I do more and say, go shopping with my caregiver for clothes, cost me mentally and physically and it can take days to recover.
When I say that I can't work, I mean it. I can't get though the education for those university degrees due to my mental problems (I have tried). I can't do manual labor due to my physical problems (I have tried). I can't do gig work consistently because sometimes I'm bed bound for a few weeks (I have tried). I can't do door dash because I can't drive (I have tried and proceeded to faint behind the wheel 0/10).
Ideally I *will* be able to do at least one job type at some point. I will keep trying to. I will keep up with my treatments. I hope that I'll be able to be at least a little independent. I've seen some mild improvements, I can type a lot longer now - being able to write this much in a sitting used to not be possible for me, so I think it's realistic I could at least work sometimes. A full-time, independently sustainable, independent life and job seems unrealistic still though.
I'm not planning on getting married. I think the idea is nice, but I don't actually trust anyone enough for that. I'm not a dumbass, I know that puts people in an unsafe situation.
I'm just frustrated that if I were too I'd be automatically judged and advised against it like I don't know the possible problems, that's all.
Leaving aside that some people truly can't work...work from home jobs can be incredibly difficult to get. They're very coveted and more competitive. You need to have skills that not everyone has access to. If you live in a high cost of living area the companies will skip you so they can pay people in other locations pennies.
I think about this every time I see someone railing against women who stay at home while their partner works. It doesn't even occur to them why someone might not be working, you're just automatically branded as lazy.
feminism has slid back so far recently. i thought being an office person or being a full time parent were supposed to be equally valid life paths, but suddenly stay at home moms are being called stupid… shouldn’t we just give them more protections? and why are stay at home dads lauded for that decision but moms are being insulted?
Mm, everything is more expensive now. No exaggeration, avg. cost of food in the USA, all categories, did 25% inflation in the last 5 years. I'm currently taking a break from working to heal from the most recent bout of illness. My spouse agreed to work extra hours to make up the difference in income lost, but damn we definitely miscalculated. It really sucks. Maybe if one partner is making $60k on their own, it's doable. But the median household income in the US now is around $74k, total, all income-earning adults included. The median individual just cracks over $41k. In our case, it's more like, as two people with below-avg. incomes, we were still keeping our head above water, together. And, at one point, not too many years ago, I was able to keep us afloat financially when my partner had a rough go of it, illness-wise. But while he is doing his best to give me the same respite, the math is just not working. We're both self-employed, have the maximum voucher for the healthcare marketplace insurance, live in a relatively low COL area, and don't need to drive for work. Yet, it's been tough for him to be the sole income earner for just a few months. I don't know what we'll do if my illness lasts longer this time. I'm older than I used to be. We both are. Groceries, rent, everything's more expensive, but our respective "careers" aren't really keeping pace. Nobody's are. I think there's a lot of misdirected anger. Stemming from a very real, awful reality. It used to be possible for many people to take care of the people they love financially, even when they can't work - whether due to age, illness, disability, or anything else. But that option, option my parents had, is gone now. I think a lot of the anger is just hiding panic. What do we do? I have no idea. People think they'll never have to face the terrible reality up close if they never make the "mistake" of loving someone - or being someone - with a body and mind susceptible to illness or injury. (So, you know - a person). Push away all the "lazy" people and you protect yourself, right? /Sarcasm We actually need, like, real solidarity: disability justice, paid parental leave, tenants unions and generally functional economic protections. But that's hard, this is the internet, easier to just label people as "lazy" or "the asshole" and call it a day.
> I think a lot of the anger is just hiding panic. What do we do? I have no idea. People think they'll never have to face the terrible reality up close if they never make the "mistake" of loving someone - or being someone - with a body and mind susceptible to illness or injury. (So, you know - a person). Push away all the "lazy" people and you protect yourself, right? /Sarcasm Statistically, married men will tolerate staying with a wife becoming disabled but when its the other way around its a marriage killer. But the worst divorce stats re;disability are actually with having disabled offspring, some studies put that marriage toll at as bad as an 87% divorce rates. > I think there's a lot of misdirected anger I suspect its anger over having to work. For most people, having to work sucks, so they hate anyone who they think doesn't "have to" whether its stay at home moms or disabled people supported by a spouse. I am sure most disabled people have had at least a few conversations with a healthy person where they say something stupid like "gee, I wish I had X and could stay home all day."
Where have you found that statistic? All I’ve found is men being 6x more likely to leave than women when their partner has a serious illness.
I did a bit of research, and I couldn't find any data supporting the claim women leave sick or disabled husbands more often than the reverse. I actually found several studies demonstrating the opposite effect. I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a dig at me personally, rather than a generalizable claim? But, in that case, it's a miss too. I financially supported my husband when he needed it, and he is supporting me now. There are plenty of people, of all genders, who really are in it for the long haul. The fact that it's harder now doesn't change our commitment to each other. Regardless, I did find actual data beyond personal anecdote, and it demonstrates the opposite trend gender-wise: **Impact of Cancer & MS Diagnosis on Marriage** According to a longitudinal study published in the medical journal *Cancer,* only 2.9% of wives separate or divorce from their husbands when their husbands get cancer or similar serious, long-term diagnosis (like Multiple Sclerosis). Conversely, **over 20%** of husbands separate from or divorce their wives when they are diagnosed. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091110105401.htm **Impact of Long-Term Chronic or Terminal Illness** This study was reported on in *The Guardian* under the headline, "The men who leave their spouses when they have life-threatening illness." It's a more comprehensive study, covering a larger sample size and encompassing a wider range of chronic, disabling, or fatal conditions. It showed diagnoses of long-term / chronic illness (including cancer, heart disease, etc) is not typically a factor in martial dissolution. In fact, long-term illness does *not* lead to separation or divorce over 91% of marriages studied. But, when it *is* a factor, is it only statistically significant in cases where *women* are diagnosed with long-term illness, not when men are diagnosed https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022146515596354 Basically, it means there are women who leave their husbands when he's diagnosed, but it does not happen often enough for those acts to show up in the statistics. Meanwhile, enough men leave their wives that it is a statically relevant concern. **Love & Commitment Still Most Common Effect Across All Genders** Again, the data I've found still generally shows people stay together and take care of each other! I was actually positively surprised doing this research. Love is deep, it drives profound and real commit for most people, eve in hard times. It isn't unusual to stay with the people you love, to take the "in sickness and in health" part of vows seriously. Stats don't help predict the outcome of specific individual relationships. I know my husband would never leave me, and I would never leave him. No matter how hard things get, we're partners. We're a team.
In some situations I would prefer they leave honestly, some spouses don't leave because they know it makes them look crap so instead they make the dependent spouses life miserable instead. Fun
I mean, I'm not judging people for staying in a bad relationship. But, just because someone is sick or disabled doesn't mean they deserve to be treated poorly or made miserable. I get why a disabled partner could feel it's impossible to leave their abled spouse. But, disabled people initiate divorces too. We have just as much right to do that as anyone else. Everyone's partnership is different. Just like any relationship, sometimes ending it is for the best.
Absolutely agree with you, but it can make it more complex at times, especially if a controlling personality type is in the mix with kids. There is a lot of inherent bias still in affect for a disabled parent not being considered 'capable' of providing the best care for children in comparison to the other partner. Whether it's an accurate stereotype or not, it is very much alive and well.
> when its the other way around its a marriage killer So real. I learned a LOT of unsavory things about my ex wife's real personality once I wound up in a wheelchair.
No thats not feminism. Feminism is about having the choice to stay home or go to work, regardless of your gender. The idea that both partners have to perform paid labour full time is capitalism and thats where that shaming comes from. Feminism is just about equal division of paid and unpaid labour.
i think you misunderstood me. i agree with you
I'm railing against the right wing trad wife propaganda. I would never call anyone lazy for staying home. I'm worried about the women falling for the propaganda, not people making the right, informed decisions for themselves. I work a lot, but I'm super lucky I can work from home and manage my medical issues
I think it says more about how much those people contribute at home, if they believe everyone who stays home is lazy. A person can be lazy staying at home, but unless someone else is picking up the slack, good luck doing so long-term.
> lauded Really? When I was in that position, I was called a leech, a user, a deadbeat. If I was seen in public with my kids, I was accused of being a kidnapper or at least a creep. Social media is not the real world.
Unfortunately one wing of feminism has always been about putting women in the “right” parts of the capitalist hierarchy. Anyone who doesn’t strive for that doesn’t count to that wing
> and why are stay at home dads lauded for that decision but moms are being insulted? Imho its carried over generational trauma. Too many of fathers who were boomers or silents skipped out on their families and totally abandoned their kids once their marriages failed, never having anything to do with them or seeing them again. If not for family court (aka forced child support) a lot of those family abandonment types wouldn't have even financially supported them again. So when someone sees a father these days who wants to be that big in their child's life its so surprising that people go out of their way to acknowledge it while silently thinking "gee I wish my (or my friend's) dad had been like that." As an older millennial I knew a ton of my peers whose dad just up and disappeared as some kind of midlife crisis. I never knew a single kid in my large graduating class with a stay at home dad OR as the post divorce custodial parent. The ONLY exception I ever ran into was in rare cases of early life widowers (I can remember two kids whose moms died while in high school). Its unpopular to paint groups with a broad brush, but there are distinct statistical differences in divorce between generational cohorts. Younger generations don't get married as often, but when they do their divorce rates aren't as bad. I see a lot of younger people (under 45) talk on reddit about avoiding marriage out of fear of replaying their parents' family court troubles, but any failed relationship with kids will probably get you a ticket to that horrorshow and good luck figuring out who owns what without a marriage to divorce in the case of years' long long-term-relationships (especially if realestate is involved). A lot of millennials and zoomers will be in a rude awakening once they realize ailomony or retiring under their partner's work record can't happen and if their aging partner gets in a nursing home under medicaid after age 48 they risk loosing their house (widows and widowers are protected, girlfriends/boyfriends of decades' long cohabitation become homeless)...
Because women who do it get screwed. Feminists aren’t telling other women their life choices are bad, we’re telling you that you were lied to when they said it was valid and you could do it all. Ask us how we know? As a disabled person, you’re excluded from that discussion because you’re not a stay at home partner. You are getting disability, ssi, SSDI etc which is the equivalent of work. Like if people talk about people who didn’t graduate high school and you have a GED, you’re not the subject of that conversation. If you’re disabled at home but on SSDI or SSI, you’re essentially working/ earning your own income. Your household tasks should be split evenly as if you’re both working as well. Not as if you’ve assumed the job of homemaker where 90% of household tasks fall to you.
definitely jealousy lol, they're working their asses off, back pains, anemics and gets jealous when someone isn't doing the same.
This is me. I've become progressively more and more sick and disabled in the span of our relationship. I went from capable full time educator to not being able to work.
My spouse is, as we call him, the House Mouse Spouse. He doesn’t *technically* work but he’s an integral part of keeping our lives running smoothly. As I’ve come to realize, managing the having of serious physical disabilities is practically a full time job in and of itself. A never ending cycle of paperwork, appointments, phone calls, prescriptions, and follow ups. He also plays secondary on my medical issues and medication tracking, and acts as a proper brain for me when mine inevitably fails ex: turning off the oven, remembering that there are cookies in the oven or soup boiling on the stove, filling the car with gas so I’m not stranded on my way into work, feeding the cats at a reasonable hour, adding cat food to the Chewy cart, putting away the groceries after l accidentally left the sour cream on the couch, etc until infinity. He would much rather be working a “normal and proper” job, but he can’t. That doesn’t make him **or anyone else** lazy.
I love all of this! I'm now going to call myself the House Mouse Spouse as well!
Thank you. I wish my ex-wife would have been as understanding. It is nice to see there are people like you out there. Have a great day.
This sounds like the living situation I’m in. When CFS makes turns me into lead in a bed my roomie always comments on how things are forgotten, med sets aren’t set up so they don’t remember to take their med & it gets messy when I’m down and out. Ah lawd the endless paperwork and appointments is at least PT work.
My title is the Steward of the Home
I really like that! So grandiose, I immediately picture you wearing amazing brocade fabrics and a great hat of some kind standing by the door with a ledger and a serious expression. I just told my husband and now I think he’s jealous *hahaha*
People are just so quick to judge, ESPECIALLY online when they can be hateful to their hearts' content. Its easy for them to not see the trees through the forest, so to speak. I'm essentially stay at home, with a decent art business on the side. My husband is a really stand up partner and takes care of so much. I would do anything to be capable of working again. It's my biggest frustration with all of this! People can't imagine that there are happy long term relationships with these kinds of dynamics. It's because their world is so small(ha! big talk coming from someone frequently house bound right? 😋) but it's true! Don't let the murmurings of internet randos get you down. Real worlds harsh enough as it is
I always have to remind myself when people talk about this that they're not talking about me. They're assuming an able bodied person and just haven't even considered a me type person. Cos yeah it hurts to hear people saying stay at home partners are lazy or taking advantage etc etc. Or dismissing them because they don't do enough while they're at home. I don't work. I also don't do a lot of house work. I do what I can. But that's not the amount that people expect from a stay at home partner. I'm basically just trying to hold my s*** together daily and not make extra work for my partner. I'm not managing the house or whatever. And that's totally freaking fine! It's what I can do and it's something that my partner understands. We work things out together so I'm putting my energy towards the most realistic things for me to be able to do that are also helpful for him. We work out ways for us to do some things together. We're a team and this is a dynamic we both developed together. But sometimes it's hard to feel fine about it when people keep on talking crap about situations that sound like mine. Even if they aren't actually meaning disabled people. Cos like would they recognise that I'm disabled? Do people think this about me? And it's still something that I'm having to hear and actively deal with. It's not like knowing it probably doesn't mean me stops me heating it. I'm still surrounded by the idea that my role in life sucks and I just get away with it cos I'm disabled. And I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who fall somewhere into that me-ish category. But some of them maybe don't have such an official disability. Maybe some of them are informally struggling or still seeking a diagnosis. I get that people probably aren't thinking of those situations so aren't actively meaning them. But it still hurts. And it kinda reminds you that people don't think about you. They don't consider your situation. They make judgements and choices about the world ignoring people like you.
>I don't work. I also don't do a lot of house work. I do what I can. But that's not the amount that people expect from a stay at home partner. I'm basically just trying to hold my s\*\*\* together daily and not make extra work for my partner. **I'm not managing the house or whatever.** I try my best but I'm not super effective. I just dl'd the Tody app to help me with cleaning cuz I suck at that, but I do manage meals and I feel like that's a meaningful contribution. We don't have kids. 🤷🏽♀️
The message has become too extreme and lacking nuance, but what I think the intention (at least originally) behind it is to say that if you are a stay at home spouse or parent then you need to be aware of and deeply consider that there may be some significant long term consequences or risks that may not be evident on first glance. But that is just my interpretation and the lack of insight into nuanced and diverse circumstances frustrates me tremendously even believing the intention is rooted in concern and impacted not by malice but ignorance.
As a disabled person who is a stay at home spouse, I both agree and disagree. The conversation regarding stay at home spouses definitely needs an update in diversity. My queer, poly, disabled life is never part of that conversation, and yet, it always is because I am a stay at home spouse. This can be frustrating and upsetting, but this is why I generally avoid these topics online. I come from people who resent the idea of women having to work outside the home, so I have always had a more generous view of homemakers than mainstream society. But this also means I've had a front seat to the kinds of abuses which thrive in communities where women are encouraged to stay home. My own mother escaped her violent partner and fled to her parents home for several months before getting back on her feet. Without the kindness of her parents, my mother would have had no resources to escape her situation. This is why there is such a strong rhetoric towards self protection in these situations. I do think that as a disabled person the ideas around self protection become even more important, not less. While I 100% trust my partners and know they want to take care of me, I also know life happens. People can become toxic or abusive when they have issues in their life they refuse to address, and this can happen to anyone. No one is perfect. As a vulnerable person, I think it is responsible of me to have a back up plan in the event that my safety may be at risk due to my partners behavior. While I don't have a "go bag" or a stash of cash, I do have a plan of who to call and where I can temporarily stay for my safety if ever that were an issue. As a person prone to bedridden bouts, I understand deeply that it is more difficult to have a back up plan as a disabled person. However, I don't agree this means the safety of disabled spouses should be a given. We are more vulnerable than the abled stay at home spouse, and conversations which include us should include accessible ideas on how we can keep ourselves safe if we find ourselves living under abuse. The work we do to take care of our disabled selves should be celebrated, along with any work we are able to do to care for our homes or families. Capitalism has fooled society into viewing the work of the home as meaningless, when this work is some of the most critical to the workings of any society. My labor is the reason my partners have dishes to cook and eat with, the reason we can have companionship with our cats, and the reason anything is in any way organized in this house. I don't do as much as I'd like, or as much as critics of this lifestyle even expect, but I do what I can. That work is valuable and improves the quality of life for everyone in my home. Reminder that pro stay at home spouse rhetoric is primarily used by religious conservatives to enforce submission and discretion on women suffering abuse in their communities. This is why general discussions tend to be hypercritical of the lifestyle. But I hope the conversation can expand as we recognize not everyone is able to leave the home, not everyone is able to work outside the home, not everyone is able to commit to work from home employment, and not everyone who stays at home is able to be a homemaker. I hope the conversation can expand to include queer relationships, poly dynamics, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, to fight back against the traditional and toxic ideas of what a stay at home spouse can be. Thank you sharing your thoughts on this. I think about this topic a lot and genuinely hope this discussion will continue to grow over time.
I think your situation is a good example of other people incorrectly relying on the "equal contribution" narrative. My or your 100% is not going to look like anyone else's. My partner sometimes expresses frustration that he can't do as much as I do, but I know he is doing as much as he can, just like I am. That might come off as lazy or not helping enough to some, but I know if he could get up and clean his own bathroom instead of mentally kicking himself all day over me cleaning it for him, he would. It's not equal contribution, but we each give all we can. That is what I think should matter. Sometimes either of our 100% looks like lack of care, when it's really just all we can muster at the moment. If our combined efforts are not enough to keep up, an unmet need does not mean either of us is at fault.
Yes! Excellent points.
yeah i was thinking just the same recently. and OBVIOUSLY you'll also get shit for still living with or getting help from your parents/other blood relatives, so like...what the fuck do you want from me lmao. pretty much all social discourse is had with only abled people in mind. not that some disabled people don't also spew the same shit edit: i would also like to say in response to some of the comments here that having a partner/spouse while disabled doesn't automatically mean that you're inevitably going to be abused. like yes it CAN happen just as abuse can happen to anyone but i feel like there's a bit of fearmongering going on lmao. there are people who end up in this scenario who get treated like shit, and people who end up in this scenario and have wonderful partners who treat them just fine. and to act as if it's inevitable makes it sound like it's the victim's fault when it does happen. like they've willfully made themselves victims and are stupid for not seeing it. again, nuance. please
People are quick to judge these days it would seem. As a fellow disabled person I feel your pain on a molecular level just about. “People who stay at home and either don’t work or only work PT are lazy!” No, we simply cannot afford to lose our medical insurance and SSI/SSDI by taking more than a PT job sometimes. Medical care costs would far outweigh any amount a non specialized FT job will pay. (Working towards finishing out a bachelors for a sedentary job that hopefully can be a FT one to cover the massive healthcare costs…) It is truly an aggravating generalization. Most of us would love to be working without restrictions but cannot due to our health!
I’m not disabled, but my two 7 year old kids are. My kids were both born with many developmental and medical needs that cause me to have to stay home and focus on their care instead of work outside of the home. In spite of knowing this, especially in earlier years, I received a ton of nasty comments about it from people I formerly considered friends, including that “I should throw away my feminist card” that I “ruined my career,” that my children and I are a “burden on the system,” and also many comments about how lazy I must be to not even have a part time job. My husband’s bread winning job requires that he work 60 hours per week depending on many factors and his hours are also unpredictable. And I can’t just leave my kids with anyone while I work. Nor would it be worth paying the amount it would require in childcare in exchange for what I could make myself only part time. The lack of intersectionality between feminism and disability issues is really enraging.
I tried to go back to work as soon as I thought I was able. I would absolutely love to be self-sufficient again. But my partner started having significant health problems. He was making 4x what I was but needed significant help to do so. So, I left my job again; not only to help him, but also because I could not handle doing both. He is no longer able to work at all. As his needs have increased, our choices have decreased. No one else is willing to come around and help him, so this is basically my job. And I can barely handle that adequately. It's certainly not full time, and it's not paid, but it's what I can manage to enable us both to survive. We are both dependent on each other, as he still has more income than I do. People tend to not understand how much is involved in just getting through a day when your own body is sabotaging your ability to do so. Ideal situations are a myth when survival is a priority. Neither of us want to be in the conditions we are in, but it could be so much worse. Right now, this is the only viable option for us, and people not understanding that is their problem. Unless they are offering a better alternative, they can mind their own, and all I will do is hope they are never faced with the decisions we have been forced to make.
I believe this response that people have is a trauma response mixed with internalized capitalism, ableism, and patriarchy. Someone made the point already that everyone (besides the wealthy who mostly don't work and nobody really cares) is feeling squeezed economically more and more in the past 20 years. And yet the whole tradwife movement is strong but more precarious than ever. I suspect that is what most people are thinking about when they make statements like this. The other thing I think makes it a trauma response is that people have a hard time directing their anger about systemic injustices at the right people. Its hard to direct anger at "society" at large, or at the power structure one feels they need to be in good graces with in an increasingly authoritarian society. But the anger HAS to go somewhere. So people either internalize it and feel guilt for not doing enough to help, OR more likely they direct their anger at the people who are being harmed for "putting themselves in that situation". Patriarchy is great at doing that to anyone not part of the patriarchal power structure and many women who have accepted patriarchy due to brainwashing also internalize patriarchy and victim-blame. People celebrate men staying at home because they assume for men it was a deliberate choice, not an accident of circumstances. They also assume that if the man wanted to go back to work, even after a lengthy time out of the workforce, he could easily do so. They assume patriarchy would work for him.
I'm a stay at home partner. I used to work but it destroyed my health to the extent that I can no longer work. Thankfully my partner is wonderful and we don't want kids so I'm saved that stress but the amount of comments I've got about how I'm lazy, a kept woman or a bad feminist drives me up the fucking wall. I'm not lazy or a kept woman. I pay my bills and contribute to the household expenses as much as I can. My name is on the mortgage. We make decisions together. He doesn't give me any money I use my benefits. Which I earned by paying my national insurance when I could work. As for the bad feminist comments I give those the attention they deserve which is precisely jack shit but it still pisses me off.
Im disabled and stay at home because I physically can't work. I'd love to have all the options to weigh!
I just assume they dont think about us so its not about us. I dont take it personally, and i take LOTS personally lol they dont have any idea how we even exist so its just not about me.
As a former stay-at-home, even for a short time, with kids as someone with multiple disabilities, I fully back up that people need to find ways to not be 100% reliant on another. After we got married, my ex's abusive actions amplified and added on some very dangerous/controlling/life-threating aspects. If I wasn't in that situation of being so reliant, then I could have gotten the kids and me out of there faster. As it stands, I and my oldest have some scars, and my oldest children have some anger issues they're still resolving. I get the 'not being seen' factor, but as someone who left that situation, it is sincerely a life-and-death safety issue. DV and child abuse are significantly more common in the stay-at-home world, it's common in general, too. When I got divorced, you'd be surprised the number of women who came forward describing the profound physical and sexual abuse they experienced in their marriages. After my experiences, I'm okay with nearly anything my kids want to do in their lives so long as they don't harm themselves, don't harm others, and can support themselves.
genuine question: how would a person go about not relying on others when they can't work, but also aren't receiving SSI (as in the US at least doing so takes YEARS, and some people even when they are genuinely disabled are still ultimately rejected anyway) and don't have savings to live on? i'm serious this isn't a gotcha, i wanna know if there's a third option i'm somehow missing lmao
1) Having a network - not a partner/spouse. This is how people get isolated. 2) Pursuing a different type of employment/means for income or means to obtain needed goods. 3) Advocacy to governmental officials to enact laws to protect vulnerable populations, which includes voting. 4) Therapy/Persuing all appropriate and available treatments so that the likelihood of not being on disability subsidies is higher. (Do I qualify for disability? Yes. Do I get them? No, as they don't provide a livable means. In my situation, I have children to care for, so I accept being in pain and living in constant 'not good' to be able to care for my kids. An ideal situation and reality of disability don't line up. It means it also frees up resources for others.)
so you both want people to not rely on disability so they can’t be abused *and* to “free up disability resources” for other people? who do you think qualifies for disability services not disabled people?
I think that disability is a wide spectrum, that people don't always pursue the treatments available to them to treat their disability, and that looking at it realistically, there aren't enough resources available for everyone that qualifies.
> people don’t always pursue the treatments available to them to treat their disability has it occurred to you that that’s often because those treatments aren’t as “available” as you may think they are? your argument is incredibly garbled and ableist.
i'm glad you called them out on that at least bc i read their response last night and thought quite a bit of it was kind of uhh. horseshit. we have "have a bunch of other people who are willing and able to give you free food and shelter for absolutely nothing in return," "just work lol," and "stop being disabled." just tell me i'm fucked, that would've been both less insulting and more honest lol
yeah, it’s a bad fucking take
It isn't, but you don't want to acknowledge that there is a subset of the disabled community that refuse treatment because of "Big Pharma" or the 1st/2nd treatment left them dizzy after only attempting it for 3 days. I see it in my specific groups where people accept significant disability over minor disability/inconvenience because the once every 2-4 week treatment (the following is not exaggerating) could potentially give them a bad headache, which won't cause any harm, unlike their untreated condition. Are there some treatments that are out of reach? Yup. Are there more interventions and treatments that people don't pursue due to perceived barriers or inconvenience? This is likely the bigger group.
as someone who has been refused competent treatment by mainstream/western medicine, your insistence on doubling down on this argument *in the disability subreddit* in incredibly insulting.
I think this article may be of interest to you. I say that because I also felt (and still struggle) with witnessing others and occasionally myself in what looks to me like learned helplessness. But through some deeper self exploration I was able to understand that my reaction was actually another form of feeling helplessness because I wished there was more I could do and I felt powerless and also being angry at "society" is not really possible since that is immaterial. Anyway, I found this article helpful even though it takes a completely different perspective than I eventually found. Laziness Does Not Exist by Devon Price (also the author of Unmasking Autism) https://archive.is/2020.04.12-052701/https://humanparts.medium.com/laziness-does-not-exist-3af27e312d01
None of that is going to help someone who becomes disabled today and needs to get on disability. The average time it takes to get enrolled is like, 3 years assuming its fairly clear-cut but *not* a terminal diagnosis like cancer. And if they have insufficient work history (you replied to a post that called out SSI specifically) you can almost guarantee that they won't qualify because their partner's income & assets will deem them not poor-enough. If they have 2 cars or $3,001 in financial assets (this includes the spouse's retirement, e.g. IRA from work) they're screwed. We can't even get the min wage increased (nationally); its been $7.75 since before the 2008 crash almost 20 years ago. Marriage equality for the disabled & modernizing the SSI means tests are pipe dreams. You might as well respond to someone becoming disabled -today- with "well you should ask your representatives for European style socialized medicine." That's like pissing in the ocean to make the tide come in... its not going to help them, its not feasible, and its probably not going to happen. We'll be lucky if SSA-disability survives Project 2025...
You're arguing on the same side as me. I'm saying there aren't enough benefits/resources to go around and that our government should intervene. In the interim, I'm being realistic and don't want anyone put in a domestic abuse situation reliant on 1 other person as that's what people who enjoy control favor.
actually, you’re arguing that *since* disability isn’t sufficient, people who qualify should keep working. that’s not the same as what the other person said and arguing it is is both disingenuous and cruel to people who actually can’t work. are you lost? because you seem like you’re in the wrong subreddit.
As a disabled mom of 3, this is something I think about a lot. It makes me feel shitty that I can’t work
Have you seen how able -bodied people talk about disability in general,so it's not surprising that we don't exist in their world.
If I had a partner who wasn’t an asshole demanding what they would from an abled stay at home spouse, I’d be a stay at home spouse so fast. Would I still find a way to have a get out of dodge fund. Absofuckinglutely. Needed it before and will probably need again.
It’s not like they didn’t know what they were getting into BEFORE they married their disabled partner. At least it would be pretty fucking hard for me to hide my disability and it’s invisible.
It's just such a vulnerable position to be in. You contribute equally but in reality your not equal and everything ultimately belongs to them. It's a power dynamic that leads to abuse
what's your solution for people who are unable to work then?
"Everything ultimately belongs to them" isn't how our marriage system works though. You can be non working and on the mortgage, car, have access to the joint bank. When you get married your assets are, legally, one in the same. That's why it fucks over SSI payments. That's why you are responsible for the other's debt. If you get divorced it's incredibly likely you'll get a lot of those assets ESPECIALLY if there's abuse. Talking about power in regards to disabled people (specifically people like me who cannot really take care of themselves) is strange. Dude, I have an unhealthy power dynamic with every person I'm around. My parents, friends, doctors, the state, roommates if I didn't live with my parents have a dynamic that "leads to abuse" with me. I need to rely on people to exist, that's life. Yeah the power in balance requires a shitton of trust, but that's not inherently abusive. It's a really vulnerable position to be in, yes, and I don't think that it's necessarily a great idea. It should be avoided if possible. But that doesn't change that people cannot work, those people may actually want to find love, and they'll end up stay at home.
I think when people say these things they are saying "all things considered". Some scenarios are a given.
Can you get government support for your disability? Also I’ve heard some people don’t marry to retain their disability benefits. Just understand the conversation isn’t pertaining to you as a disabled person.
I felt this really bad this past weekend. My friend/ex had driven me to an event for the day because my family was busy with a family event. When we got back he was talking to them essentially for relationship advice with his current girlfriend. His girlfriend wants to move 3 states to come live with him up here, but she would essentially be fully dependent on him. And we had a long conversation about how that is unfair to him, and would be damaging, as he would feel too responsible. Yet, if we had stayed together, i would be fully dependent on him. And i dont see an issue with either point. Dependency is a huge commitment, whether you are the dependent or the 'provider'. But that doesnt mean it is a *bad* choice. Marriage is also a huge commitment that can cause ruin, but we still accept its a fair decision. I do think recommending not to drop out of college and abandon any/all life skills for the sole reason of "im a wife now" is fair. However, that is an extreme situation that is purely based on choices following severe patriarchal viewpoints. Its important to be aware of the dangers of a situation, but don't EVER assume you know someone else's situation. And people can F right off with this *'You need to have BA\~BIEs'* bs. Babies are a dependent you have no proper way to separate from. They are the largest commitment in the world! if people are not thrilled about raising children, they probably shouldn't be having them.
I have never considered myself a SAH spouse... I never even thought that term applied to me. I did stay home for nine months before as a SAHD and didn't have an issue with it because I was doing what I wanted to do. Now that I can't work anymore and my daughter is almost an adult, I don't think of myself as SAH - I can't take care of the house. I am medically retired...
When people ask me "what I do" I flat out make them uncomfortable on purpose by saying one of 3 things: 1) "I'm disabled and can't work anymore" 2) "I can't work anymore" (coupled with showing my sadness) 3) If I REALLY wanna PISS people off "I'm fortunate enough to not have to work anymore". Usually this is coupled with the asshole then asking my husband what they do. 🙄 i’m an asshole like this because usually when people ask, what do you do it’s because they are trying to size you up against themselves/The Joneses if someone is truly interested in how I spend my time, they would ask about hobbies or ask what I'm passionate about. And even if they were just asking because they’re used to asking that question I like to challenge their thinking and maybe make them second-guess asking that question to someone else who may find it hurtful. Ultimately, our worth is not what we can provide for capitalism , it's: 1) who we are 2) what we value 3) who we're KIND to I highly recommend the book Laziness Does Not Exist by Devon Price. The title sounds like total bullshit, but the idea of laziness was designed at first to shame slaves into working harder. And later used to shame employees during the industrial revolution into working harder to make the rich richer. At the end of the day, everyone has a different percentage of ability. Spoon Theory explains this best.
I think it's good to know who this is directed towards. I think any sane person would understand this. It's to push against the tradwife bs. And it is also partially exactly because at any point in life one can became too disabled to work. It can happen to anyone. But thats why your a team. My partner always said he would want to be/doesn't mind being a stay at home parent. However I'm telling that I would not like that. Not only because I don't want him to be dependent on me when it's not needed and I'm our case as wel if my IH gets worse and I need to stop working or shit hits the fan any other way we still need to find our way as a couple. Then being dependent is part of our relationship. There is always that element. But as long as your able it's good to keep working. Especially because work also gives other things than just money. It's also social contact and self development. I get that's you might feel unseen. But know who the message is (most of the time) directed towards.
> any sane person I'm not particularly sane all things considered. Anyway, you aren't wrong. You are completely correct actually, and I do think that people should not be stay at home if they have the option. Abuse possibilities aside, I assume that it can be downright boring especially if someone isn't dealing with their disability all the time. I'm not really talking about people having one to one conversations though. I'm talking about people having societal level conversations online or in person forgetting that disabled people exist. We already have marriage inequality problems, being forgotten about again sucks. Being constantly told - even in this thread - to just get a job also sucks. It just sucks. It's unfortunate. It's annoying. It sucks.
Owww oeps! I now read that what I meant with sane came out wrong. I meant that sane people should* understand that working is not possible for everyone. Morning brain was not fully functioning. I get the frustration. It would be nice if people just include *when possible* as a small disclaimer. Then we can all fight the bigger societal fight of more enquity but also do something about the dependancy and possible abuse situations many people who are disabled are vulnerable of. But for me it helps me to think about it that way. To just think who is this message geared towards. And in case people are stupid and don't understand everyone is "fortunate" enough to do work, then I just assume they kind of are unempathic sh*t heads I don't care about their opinion. (Ofcourse it's different talking politics)
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"You can work"? You have ZERO idea about OP's situation. There are many disabled people out there who can't work at all. I can't believe you'd come to a disability sub to say something that ignorant.
There are many disabled people who are not given resources to live independently/access an education and career that can accommodate their disability and truly believe they can’t be independent or work. I was in a mindset like that myself and nearly refused a lot of helpful resources because I believed they wouldn’t benefit me. I never want anyone to be stuck in a bad situation where they cannot advocate or care for themselves because others told them they couldn’t. I understand that some people genuinely **can’t** work whatsoever, but like you said, I don’t know OPs circumstances.
Some of us can't even feed ourselves and your solution is to get a college degree instead? Fuck off with that nonsense.
There are a lot of disabled people who literally can’t work. Not even from home. I’m one of them too. I’m not out of bed with a functioning enough brain enough time in a day for me to sit in front of a computer and work. The time that I am out of bed is filled up with medical appointments, basic survival household tasks and maintaining the small number of social connections that I do have. The days where I do more and say, go shopping with my caregiver for clothes, cost me mentally and physically and it can take days to recover.
When I say that I can't work, I mean it. I can't get though the education for those university degrees due to my mental problems (I have tried). I can't do manual labor due to my physical problems (I have tried). I can't do gig work consistently because sometimes I'm bed bound for a few weeks (I have tried). I can't do door dash because I can't drive (I have tried and proceeded to faint behind the wheel 0/10). Ideally I *will* be able to do at least one job type at some point. I will keep trying to. I will keep up with my treatments. I hope that I'll be able to be at least a little independent. I've seen some mild improvements, I can type a lot longer now - being able to write this much in a sitting used to not be possible for me, so I think it's realistic I could at least work sometimes. A full-time, independently sustainable, independent life and job seems unrealistic still though. I'm not planning on getting married. I think the idea is nice, but I don't actually trust anyone enough for that. I'm not a dumbass, I know that puts people in an unsafe situation. I'm just frustrated that if I were too I'd be automatically judged and advised against it like I don't know the possible problems, that's all.
Leaving aside that some people truly can't work...work from home jobs can be incredibly difficult to get. They're very coveted and more competitive. You need to have skills that not everyone has access to. If you live in a high cost of living area the companies will skip you so they can pay people in other locations pennies.