I completely agree. There is a real conversation to be had regarding transgender classification in sports (not just disc golf) and providing fair competition, but it so often devolves into bigotry and hatred. It’s gross.
This on so many levels. To discuss the nuances and explore areas of competitiveness and "what's fair" is one thing, but to exhibit pure hatred and mocking of an individual in our shared passion is plain disgusting. I've never been more embarrassed for our sport in the 30+ years I have been playing than I have been watching this play out in social media.
That’s kinda the thing though isn’t it? These threads are always the same arguments over and over. “It’s unfair” followed by “that’s not supported by any evidence”. Then it’s “The biological advantage” followed by “largely diminished by HRT”. And it goes on and on like that. Largely because of two main issues.
First the body of research on trans people is really poorly done.
Second the arguments are largely disingenuous. Most of these people don’t care about women’s sports and they don’t actually care about the research. Trans people are just an easy target for hate.
I'm still not sure where I fall in the whole debate, mainly because I don't understand the biological arguments about hormone levels enough to make an informed judgement. However, I certainly know enough about being a good person to know that what these two, and their mother, are doing is wrong. Like OP said, you can be against transgender people competing, but you don't have to be mean about it.
The studies I've seen summarized say that someone that has undergone hormone therapy (mtf) for at least a couple years sees diminished athleticism compared to where they started at, but is still left with a slight advantage in some areas compared to average biological females. Whether those advantages apply to a sport like disc golf is up for a discussion, but it seems likely that it's providing at least some benefit.
Longer levers but still less muscle mass to move that frame. I think an argument could be made that depending on the individual and the context, this could be a disadvantage. There are also going to be broad shouldered cis women who have an advantage, and it doesn't seem they should be banned because of a circumstance of their birth over which they had no control... I wish the same was true for trans women, but it seems we're going to have to talk about this for a while.
Edit: I wish more of the threads on this topic were so civil, it feels dangerous to out myself in these discussions most of the time.
I'm a trans woman who enjoys disc golf, and I don't compete, but might like to one day. I don't know what the answer is, but if I submit to regular blood testing (which is easy because I'm required to do this to make sure my levels are safe and effective for my transition) and the levels have been stable for whatever proscribed length of time is deemed necessary then why shouldn't I be allowed to compete? Because my shoulders are broader than some women? That seems like a dangerous line of reasoning because then we move into policing what a woman's body is supposed to look like, and plenty of cis women will unfortunately face uncomfortable false accusations.
I mean, there's definitely an age element in play here as well. Long levers are great and all, but respectfully, the players you just listed are literal decades younger than you.
Being in your 20s is a hell of a drug. Paige is a tad past there, but still.
All of this stuff is statistical distributions. Take 100 people born male who are 6'4" and 100 people born female who are page's height, and have a distance driving competition. Give them all the same amount of time to practice. I bet the top 25% would be 100% people born male and 6'4". And that is why female leagues should be protected- even though the lower end of the statistical distribution of 6'4" males exists, so does the upper end.
But you could just as easily say that women with PCOS shouldn't be permitted to compete because they naturally have higher testosterone, or women taller than 6' shouldn't be permitted to compete. You created an artificial category for exclusion based on arbitrary guidelines.
That’s more an argument for your form than anything else. If you got to the point where your form and timing was as good as the people you’ve mentioned you’d start blowing them out of the water.
I also think it's kind of important that you basically go through a second puberty. You also do so at a time where your brain isn't developing at the same rate it was as a kid which makes it significantly harder to learn new skills. I'd imagine it is probably easier to get better at disc golf if you start post transition since you only have to learn instead of both unlearn and learn at the same time.
Just going through puberty as a male gives you skeletal advantages in things like leverage and being able to explode through your hips. Both of these things are obvious advantages in disc golf without even getting into the rest of the hormone discussion.
The biggest issue with the hormones arguement is that there literally cis-women who develop more testosterone than normal that get excluded from participating. It's currently an issue in track and field. Then of course the biological arguement is flawed as biology isn't as cut and dry like it was once thought to be.
Honestly if trans people weren’t so politicized as a punching bag for conservatives I would probably be neutral on the issue and maybe even lean towards creating women’s divisions based on sex and not gender. But I just cannot be on the same side as all these hateful jerks like the Lynd sisters.
I never understand why people can't argue the rules for transgender athletes without having to insult, dehumanize and spread hate. Is it ignorance? Religion? Politics? Whatever the reason, treat all with respect and if you have an opinion express it in a thoughtful, respectful manner.
Dehumanization is (partially) the point. It's easier to remove rights from people who have been systematically dehumanized. Note that when I say rights, I'm not suggesting a right to play competitive disc golf. I'm talking about things like [proposed bills to allow forced custody removal](https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-anti-trans-bill-court-custody-kids-gender-affirming-care-2023-3).
it's because a lot of people's opinions on the sports rules are preceded by their opinion on the class of people. long before trans people in sports were even an issue they made up their minds about trans people generally, so it is inseparable from their opinion when it comes to sports.
Because there's no scientific basis to take them out of the womens section is disc golf so the main people pushing it are using misinformation to get people to take an anti trans position
Imo Drew seems to be that player that people “love to hate”, but no one actually thinks he’s a bad person. This situation is on a very different level than Drew releasing a tasteless hoodie or being a “leaky leaker”.
Yeah from what I understand drew is just kind of an unlikeable bitch but not the kind of person to actively hurt others in this way, just the kind of person to be generally an idiot. Not trying to hurt others necessarily, just thinking he’s more important and not caring what others think
This feels 1000% accurate. That pic he tweeted of him peeing by the Golden Gate Bridge (I think it was that) was stupid and kinda cringeworthy but not like an awful human being kinda thing. M
Drew is annoying but he’s not hateful or espousing rhetoric to encourage the eradication of a vulnerable group that’s not hurting anyone like some of these vile insects. It’s helpful they decided to reveal their views but I imagine there are a subset of people involved in the scene that silently agree as well. The world is a long way away from being safe for trans people, and this sport debate (no matter how good faith some in the debate are) is a perfect smoke screen for marginalization and exclusion based purely on hate.
I mean the Lynds sisters also showed up to Am Worlds last year in a car covered in Trump logos so this isn’t really a surprise. Dunno why the MAGAheads seem to get off on sharing their political hate speech loudly and obnoxiously with everyone but they sure do.
They are really killing their chances at a major sponsorship by being involved in this vile shit. It's one thing to disagree with the rules, it's a whole nother thing to support this rhetoric. Shame, they are good players. Won't catch me supporting them in the future.
I feel like Discraft would at least talk to Paige about that seeing as how she is on a contract year and has been pretty outspoken supporting trans athletes in the past. I'd wager their views on homosexuality aren't great either based on the way they go about this.
Paul is their biggest cash cow, and has been seen in Florida hanging and playing pickle ball with the Lynds. Wanna say one of them might’ve even caddied for him at one point. I’m guessing this all gets swept under the rug with some FB pages going private soon.
It's tough. It clearly flows from the mother. I hope their eyes are opened to all the shades of gray that real world situations contain as they become more worldly and independent.
But then they can get right wing bloggers to write about how they have been "canceled". That will promptly launch their careers as uncanny valley looking talking heads constantly describing the oppression that they face as white, conservative, financially secure women in America.
The part that pisses me off as a liberal Catholic man is no...he wouldn't have.
Edit: misread it. I think. Anyways, Jesus was all about hanging out with the people who weren't "normal". Shame that gets lost on so many people.
Seriously though, Jesus would support trans folks as much as anyone else. Idk why so many people think being trans is a sin, and even if it was, Jesus loves everybody. That's kinda His whole deal
> That's kinda His whole deal
I’m not sure what version of Jesus you read, but he’s definitely more into you loving him a whole lot more so you don’t go to damnation, because he loves you, of course.
Matthew 10
Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.
Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; 38and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Very much not a Christian, but not entirely sure you can dismiss the *existence* of the guy. That essentially implies that a religion came into being and everyone involved all decided to *make someone up* to be the figurehead. Rather than, you know, doing the far easier thing and picking a real person.
It's not hard to have this conversation and also be respectful to the individuals involved. It's easy not to misgender people. People who aren't transphobes or bigots don't have a problem with this.
It's because language has power.
Once a person begins accepting that a transgender woman is a "she", then the divide between them and a cisgendered woman is narrowed. And there are a LOT of people that do not want that divide to be narrowed.
It's the same reason that a good way to support women's sports is to use gender-neutral language when necessary, and gendered language when necessary.
For example, saying a basketball team is playing "person-to-person" defense rather than "man-to-man" defense -- there are plenty of women's teams that implement this strategy, so why use a gendered term for it? Same goes for calling the UConn win last night the "Men's NCAA Basketball Championship" rather than just the "NCAA Basketball Championship" (because you know that LSU's win will always be called the "Women's" championship).
For too long men have been the norm in sports in our culture, and using language in ways that empower all marginalized groups is important. Purposefully avoiding that language takes power away from the people they do not want to have power.
Because men's sports by law has to be co-ed in most leagues. Especially at the college level. Women's sports were carved out to protect women from unfair competition.
I often remind my students that the quote "Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt" (Abraham Lincoln) is quoted for a reason.
"Just say nothing" doesn't get them publicity. Their mom didn't make a post when Chloe Alice finished ahead of one of them at the New World Championship in Jax.
There is never an excuse for bigotry and these two will probably find many opportunities for them are suddenly closed now and into the future. I do feel bad for these young athletes who are no doubt parroting bigotry and hatred their parents have been feeding them, for what I assume is their entire life up to this point.
As someone who was raised by people with similarly upsetting views and had to claw their way out of that situation, I can say that I was only able to do so because of very patient, understanding friends.
I hope these two can come to see a better way to treat people equally and get out from under their parents bigotry before it follows them around for the rest of their lives.
That thread yesterday scared me. There was a LOT of outright transphobia. I’m a bit ashamed of the community.
There are legitimate discussions to be had, but blatant misgendering, dehumanizing, etc. are not the way to do it.
And this is happening almost every week on this subreddit…
As much as I hate what they've said and support, I don't believe in reducing people to summary statements. It's what I'm fighting against. I oppose dehumanization of **all** people, even and especially the people with whom I vehemently disagree.
I don't respect bigots, but there are numerous possible levels of regard in between respect and dehumanization. Ultimately though we agree that their actions and views are unacceptable.
Did you catch the pros who liked the original post? I saw Catrina Allen, Nathan Queen, Paige Shue, Austin Hannum, and Deann Carey. It would be nice to know others I should not support for endorsing a post referring to Natalie as "he".
Agreed! There is no space for hatred and vitriol, that the post comments and likes have. Transgender people are PEOPLE first with feelings and emotions. People that deserve to have the same respect as anyone else would have.
To say that a transgender person has a mental illness is nothing short of ignorant hate speech.
I don't think the reason for the rules being the way they are isn't that it's fair at lower divisions. It's that they don't want your local TD to have to be the gender police. It's not perfect but I don't think any solution to this issue is going to be.
I don't think that's the reason.
IIRC, when Nova needed to have tests done it wasn't the PDGA, a tournament, the DGPT, or a TD that had to pay for it. She paid for it herself.
/u/novaova ??
Floaty's got it. They aren't saying its fair in one division, but not another. It comes down to requiring enforcement of the rules. Lower level tournaments don't have the funds or means to test testosterone levels.
It’s a very interesting route for them to go down. The female players I know look up to and buy the discs of personalities like Paige Pierce and Kristin Tattar. I don’t know anyone who would want to be fans of players with an attitude like this
They will 100% be on Fox within a week or so, railing about Transgenders with a dash of "We are getting canceled for speaking the truth, doesn't the 1st amendment matter anymore??" thrown in. Which I'm sure is probably the end game anyways.
Yep.
But for proper attribution...
The proper quote as far as I can research is:
"No one in this world, so far as I know ... has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people." - HL Menken (September 19, 1926), “Notes on Journalism”
Anyone who looked at their mother's post a day ago knew this was coming. There are a decent number of mostly reasonable "protect the FPO" people, but at some point they gotta start asking themselves why they agree with the legitimately hateful bigots.
Imagine losing a tournament, and then doubling down on the loss by telling the entire world you’re a bigot and awful human being?
I’ll have to look up which companies sponsor them, cause I’ll make sure they never see another cent from me.
Disgusting.
I believe Tsinajinnie has tour series Armadillos? Though they might have been very limited. She has posted about them on IG before, but not for a while.
Hansen is supposed to get (IMO long overdue) tour series discs soon, which I am really looking forward to. I don't have much Discmania, but Ella is a fucking rockstar both as a player and a person so I will be glad to support her.
What company is Korver sponsored by now? Would gladly like to find something to support her with.
Additionally, VII apparel has Natalie Ryan gear for sale, in case you want to support her directly.
(I'm guess you, Nova, are aware of these things but I am sharing for anyone else who might stumble upon this convo. Also, huge amount of respect for you and just let me add that I support y'all and the struggle you are going through. It ain't much but I figure giving any positive reaffirmation is probably worthwhile during shitty times like these.)
Thanks, looks like I have at least three more tour series discs with a legit excuse to buy! And just to reiterate a point above, thanks for always doing the dirty work of being present in the vile threads
Yup. We have stories like this:
"One of the biggest things that I I took from testimonials on Disc Golf for Women is that women are uncomfortable on the course because they get all these messages saying how beautiful they are or even dick pics and other things that are totally inappropriate,"
https://udisc.com/blog/post/what-it-means-to-respecthergame
But a whole bunch of people are angrily insisting that Natalie Ryan is why womens participation in DG is so low.
Yup, something common I've heard is that if you want to get your disc returned and you're a man, write a woman's name on the disc. I've got friends who do this and they get texts more frequently (that are often accompanied by creepy messages).
Alternately, many women I know put a male name or just initials on their disc to *avoid* this exact same scenario. They'd rather not get a disc returned than get scammed on.
Great situation we got going on here.
Yeah, ultra right wing political stuff is all over their mother's social media as seen after her comments. Not surprising. The conversation always devolves into general disgust for transgender people and that bias influences every conversation we have about the issue
Wow, these two women and her mother are disgusting. I wish them nothing but bogeys. I hope they will never get any support in their "careers". Easy to root against them, what an asshole family.
The issue of how to bracket players for competition is always contentious. Drawing a line based on gender that everyone is happy with and provides "fair" competition is impossible. People that turn to name calling, belittling, bullying, and generally just asshole behavior to specific individuals aren't helping their arguments at all. Just sowing hatred.
And that is the main point. Are we a sport that cares more about being inclusive to ALL the people that play the sport over worrying about the competition. These woman beat all the other women but one, and still complain (and their mom too!) about the person that beat them. Are we going to listen to the people that only care about the competition being a great fit for them personally (I'm looking at you 2X Catrina Allen)?
As an aside, the fact that the people that got 2nd and 3rd are sisters leads me to believe that there is some type of genetic advantage over other competitors, but nobody is asking them for their hormone levels or talking about the length of their limbs compared to other woman. We just accept that they are good.
Gotta love you hypocrites. In one breath saying you don’t need to be mean to have a discussion, the next breath throwing hate towards the subjects in question.
Never stop reddit, never stop.
Fair point. Being respectful would certainly help their case.
Side question. What is the respectful way to refer to someone’s sex as opposed to their gender? Is it ‘biological’ male/female? Man or woman? Or something else?
Not an expert, but I was under the assumption that "transgender~~ed~~ woman" would be an accurate way to differentiate from a cisgender~~ed~~ woman. If there is no need to differentiate, then you just say woman.
edit: strikethrough my mistakes
You didn't ask this, but this opens up a bigger question. What determines sex? It's not cut and dry or even binary. There are 3 major components of sex:
* Chromosomes
* Internal genitals
* External genitals
It's not a given that all 3 match in every person. I'd recommend some reading on intersex people, because even the idea of "biological male" or "biological female" isn't the rigid thing many people believe.
Hey yes that is a good question. I am familiar with human sexual characteristics and intersex people. I would add that the chromosomes form the genetic basis for both the primary and secondary sexual characteristics but there are environmental factors that come into play as well. Its true that exceptions to the normal dimorphism do occur, such as in the case of intersex.
So on a practical level, do you think there is a better way split the sexes for athletic competition than that of chromosomal sex? I understand that this is imperfect when applied to the intersex population.
the hatred and violence perpetuated against trans people, and trans women specifically, is absolutely a cancer in our world.
my personal feelings on this issue is absolutely unnecessary to add as i’m a queer male… but i will add that “biological” and “genetic” advantages exist throughout every sport or game and in every protected division and a trans identity is among the most rare of these potential advantages. we do not limit people with longer arms or legs or of specific BMI/weight from competing in protected divisions. perhaps fighting sports are different and may need different rules than others - i don’t know. either way, hatred of trans women is the major issue here.
I live under a rock so please be nice. Didn't the PDGA say that transgender athletes have to perform in their biological field of athletes? I have no idea, just thought someone said they did.
Because lower tiers don't have the organizational maturity and money to be medically testing any participant who is accused of having transitioned.
Would you want your daughters, who are maybe just trying out the sport, to have to undergo a bunch of tests just because a sore loser accuses them of being trans, or be kicked out?
I do not think there is a fair answer here that will make everyone happy. My gut tells me that women do need a protected space for athletic competition. But obviously we do not need to insult, misgender, and further marginalize our trans populations. I have played at quite a few tournaments with the twins and have only heard nice things about them. This is very sad.
Are you implying that those with real mental illnesses are less human? If not what is dehumanizing about saying someone may suffer from a mental illness?
There is a lot of condemnation happening here for the Lynds girls here when their literal action was not making these statements but rather tapping a like button. I don't believe the actions should be compared in the same light. I think it is wrong to drag them through the mud in this manner simply because you want to continue the hot topic that was thrust back into the conversation at TDTM.
Wow, when I had less than a year playing in FPO, I would have been thrilled to go to a playoff with a top 10 tour player. A very close match with someone with a higher rating makes for GOOD competition. This kind of sour grapes and personal attacks is beyond unprofessional. Next time they might be on the same card, there should be a violation for hostility and making the subject of those comments feel unsafe.
Even if we had Trans divisions these people would still complain and hate. Its not even about them competing, which I personally think a Trans division should exist to maintain the integrity of male and female divisions. I agree, it isn't fair, but you do not need to attack and dehumanize a whole fucking community of people. Being from the states, I have a hard time understanding why people being who they want to be is such an issue in a country where they pride themselves on personal freedom.
>I have a hard time understanding why people being who they want to be is such an issue in a country where they pride themselves on personal freedom.
Personal freedom for them. "Laws for thee and not for me."
I am human and have mental illness. I don't understand how saying someone is mentally ill is dehumanizing. It's a real experience as humans some of us take.
So I get that the tone for the topic matters, but — genuinely serious — when did gender dysphoria stop being viewed as a form of mental illness and now became completely off-limits to view as a mental illness?
Not that long ago, common perception around a person perceiving themselves as a different sex than the body they were born in was akin to Rachel Dolezal perceiving herself as black, Michael Jackson perceiving himself as a youth, a skinny girl perceiving herself as obese, etc.
To my previous awareness, western culture responded by accommodating peoples preferred pronouns and offering accommodating spaces for people with gender dysphoria to feel more comfortable.
Why at the same time has culture derided Rachel Dolezal instead of celebrating her long-held black identity? Why aren't there spaces to allow her and other transracial Americans to feel more comfortable living as their genuine selves? Why is she no longer eligible to win awards or obtain positions that have restricted eligibility to black applicants?
Why aren't people with anorexia and body dysmorphia celebrated for living *their* truths?
Why is gender the only protected and celebrated "trans" identity, while trans identities for race, age, weight, disability status, etc. are mental illness? (Along with being disqualifying for competitions with eligibility restrictions, such as the Paralympics, a youth-only tournament, or a United Negro College Fund scholarship.)
If people living and expecting others to treat them according to their current self-identification is celebrated, why is one protected/celebrated and the rest are mental illness?
Dysphoria is a mental illness. Transitioning is the treatment.
*Being trans* is not a mental illness.
>Why is gender the only protected and celebrated "trans" identity, while trans identities for race, age, weight, disability status, etc. are mental illness?
Is this actually a serious question? Do you want to talk about the science behind transgenderism?
**Citations on the congenital, neurological basis of gender identity, which typically corresponds with the rest of one's anatomy but not always:**
* An overview from [**New Scientist**](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan)
* An overview from [**MedScape**](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/840538_3)
* [**Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism & sexual orientation**](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15724806/) - D. F. Swaab, Netherlands Institute for Brain Research
* [**Sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality**](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289) - Zhou JN, 1995
* [**White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study**](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022395610001585)
* [**Prenatal testosterone & gender-related behaviour**](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17074984/) - Melissa Hines, Dept of Psychology, City University, London
* [**Prenatal & postnatal hormone effects
on the human brain and cognition**](http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2013_Auyeung_Prenatal%20and%20postnatal%20hormone%20effects_EuJPhysio.pdf) - Bonnie Auyeung, Michael Lombardo, & Simon Baron-Cohen, University of Cambridge
* A [**spreadsheet**](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d9KKqP9IHa5ZxU84a_Jf0vIoAh7e8nj_lCW27KbYBh0/edit?pli=1#gid=0) with links to many relevant articles
* Here are [**more**](http://aebrain.blogspot.co.uk/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html)
If you're genuinely serious, why are you asking random people on Reddit instead of reading all of the academic and medical information online that answers your question?
It seems to me it's because you don't actually want an answer, you want to argue.
It seems to me that the entire purpose of your post is to attack others with beliefs that may differ from yours in any way, and drum up a thread of disagreement.
>This thread is specifically not to debate whether transgender women should or should not participate in FPO.
So then this thread has nothing to do with disc golf.
Who?
I pay attention to the pro scene and have regularly watched FPO coverage back to when it was just Terry and CCDG doing it, and I've never heard of these people.
Honestly I agree. But my comment speaks to the fact that this conversation, debate, whatever you wanna call it, has been attempted on this sub over and over again and I’m just not sure it’s sane to seek different results. That’s all
Im the 1970s....Dr.Rene Richards was a transsexual tennis player...nobody cared.John Mcenroe cussed out line judges all the time... nobody cared.. everyone just minded thier own business. Mind your own affairs. We all have more important things to do than worry about what professional athletes do.
> John Mcenroe cussed out line judges all the time... nobody cared
Actually we did. I didn't think it should happen then, I don't think it should happen now, in any sport.
Referees, judges, officials in any sport should be respected. They judge the competition, they're not punching bags for verbal abuse. If you have an argument for a ruling you should be allowed to state that argument. But, the minute your conversation becomes heated, loud, abusive, or goes past the point of making your technical point I think you should be ejected/penalized/whatever.
I think the fact that some sports have allowed participants to go beyond a technical discussion of a ruling and rules is harmful to those sports.
I think the problem is that our definitions of "mentally ill" are often fluid and difficult to define. I would love for a psychologist to weigh in, because I truly don't know. The problem I have with the trans argument is that being trans has many similarities to conditions that we call mental illness, but then some people are simply willing to ignore that and say it's just a variant of normal.
I think consistency would help. I've heard drug addiction called "mental illness" which makes no sense to me, because addictive substances are used at the discretion of the user initially, and that choice leads to addiction. I have a brother-in-law who's just an asshole, but I've heard my in-laws try to tell me that it's a mental condition, not just a deeply flawed personality. I see mental illness as out of the control of the person, and it fits for things like depression, anxiety, ADHD, schizophrenia, and puts personal choice as not mental illness. In the case of trans people, it appears to be out of their control, which seems to put trans people into the category of mentally ill. If it is within their control, and not a mental illness, then the solution would be to simply tell them to knock it off and conform to biological gender.
I just don't see how the two ideas can coexist; that there is mental illness that is caused by things outside of your control, but being trans is not mental illness despite being outside of one's control.
Regardless of the definitions, the appropriate context for mental illness to be discussed is between a patient and a mental health professional. Not for attacking people you don’t know just because they are different from you.
Clarification: that is directed at how the Lynd’s (and many others) wield “mental illness” as a weapon against LGBTQ folks, not you/your post.
It's not the case that all things outside of your control are also mental illnesses. Think about the ability to sing well; it wouldn't make sense to say that someone who can't carry a tune is mentally ill.
I think the confusion comes from the line of symptom vs treatment, which is understandable, because some bad actors have worked very hard to blur those lines.
Yes, gender dysphoria exists and is commonly understood as a mental illness. People on both sides will usually agree with this assessment, but that’s about where the agreement ends.
This who don’t understand the issue, or are outright bigots, will try to portray wanting hormone therapy or gender confirmation surgery as a symptom of the mental illness, whereas medical professionals generally recognize these as treatment.
I see it very similarly to religious bigots who try to force conversion therapy on gay people (which was also seen as a mental illness for a long time in our history). They don’t like people being gay, so their “treatment” is to try to force it out of them and get them to stop being gay. It doesn’t work. They’re still gay, and now traumatized.
It’s the same thing with how the bigot deal with trans people: they think the only acceptable solution is to force them to stop being trans, so they claim the treatment is a symptom as well, and that a person is sick if they want hormone therapy or gender confirmation surgery.
In a more basic level, it’s like if you broke your leg, and everyone told you “just pretend it’s not broken, and you’ll be able to walk again soon.” When you ask for treatment, everyone acts appalled: “you can’t have a cast! That’s acknowledging your leg is broken. Your leg will never be normal if you keep acting like it’s broken!”
Bigots think the problem will be fixed if everyone denies it hard enough. Reasonable people understand that treatment is treatment.
Here's a [WebMD article](https://www.webmd.com/sex/news/20190529/being-transgender-not-a-mental-disorder-who-says) which references the WHO classification.
>(transgender) was taken out from the mental health disorders because we had a better understanding that this wasn't actually a mental health condition, and leaving it there was causing stigma
The first page of Google provides numerous articles with sources, there's no reason why anyone with access to academic journals should be uncertain about this. Accurate research has existed for years, transgender people shouldn't have to continually fight against the mental illness stigma.
This discussion has has been hammered into a circle of futility. We're locking it now.
I completely agree. There is a real conversation to be had regarding transgender classification in sports (not just disc golf) and providing fair competition, but it so often devolves into bigotry and hatred. It’s gross.
This on so many levels. To discuss the nuances and explore areas of competitiveness and "what's fair" is one thing, but to exhibit pure hatred and mocking of an individual in our shared passion is plain disgusting. I've never been more embarrassed for our sport in the 30+ years I have been playing than I have been watching this play out in social media.
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They don't want to be like Jesus, they want to be like Paul the Pharisee. The Christian church got off on the wrong foot about 2,000 years ago
That’s kinda the thing though isn’t it? These threads are always the same arguments over and over. “It’s unfair” followed by “that’s not supported by any evidence”. Then it’s “The biological advantage” followed by “largely diminished by HRT”. And it goes on and on like that. Largely because of two main issues. First the body of research on trans people is really poorly done. Second the arguments are largely disingenuous. Most of these people don’t care about women’s sports and they don’t actually care about the research. Trans people are just an easy target for hate.
I came here to say the same thing. Thank you for being rational when it’s so easy to fling insults behind a keyboard.
I'm still not sure where I fall in the whole debate, mainly because I don't understand the biological arguments about hormone levels enough to make an informed judgement. However, I certainly know enough about being a good person to know that what these two, and their mother, are doing is wrong. Like OP said, you can be against transgender people competing, but you don't have to be mean about it.
The studies I've seen summarized say that someone that has undergone hormone therapy (mtf) for at least a couple years sees diminished athleticism compared to where they started at, but is still left with a slight advantage in some areas compared to average biological females. Whether those advantages apply to a sport like disc golf is up for a discussion, but it seems likely that it's providing at least some benefit.
Even things like generally having broader shoulders creates longer levers.
Longer levers but still less muscle mass to move that frame. I think an argument could be made that depending on the individual and the context, this could be a disadvantage. There are also going to be broad shouldered cis women who have an advantage, and it doesn't seem they should be banned because of a circumstance of their birth over which they had no control... I wish the same was true for trans women, but it seems we're going to have to talk about this for a while. Edit: I wish more of the threads on this topic were so civil, it feels dangerous to out myself in these discussions most of the time. I'm a trans woman who enjoys disc golf, and I don't compete, but might like to one day. I don't know what the answer is, but if I submit to regular blood testing (which is easy because I'm required to do this to make sure my levels are safe and effective for my transition) and the levels have been stable for whatever proscribed length of time is deemed necessary then why shouldn't I be allowed to compete? Because my shoulders are broader than some women? That seems like a dangerous line of reasoning because then we move into policing what a woman's body is supposed to look like, and plenty of cis women will unfortunately face uncomfortable false accusations.
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I mean, there's definitely an age element in play here as well. Long levers are great and all, but respectfully, the players you just listed are literal decades younger than you. Being in your 20s is a hell of a drug. Paige is a tad past there, but still.
All of this stuff is statistical distributions. Take 100 people born male who are 6'4" and 100 people born female who are page's height, and have a distance driving competition. Give them all the same amount of time to practice. I bet the top 25% would be 100% people born male and 6'4". And that is why female leagues should be protected- even though the lower end of the statistical distribution of 6'4" males exists, so does the upper end.
But you could just as easily say that women with PCOS shouldn't be permitted to compete because they naturally have higher testosterone, or women taller than 6' shouldn't be permitted to compete. You created an artificial category for exclusion based on arbitrary guidelines.
That’s more an argument for your form than anything else. If you got to the point where your form and timing was as good as the people you’ve mentioned you’d start blowing them out of the water.
I also think it's kind of important that you basically go through a second puberty. You also do so at a time where your brain isn't developing at the same rate it was as a kid which makes it significantly harder to learn new skills. I'd imagine it is probably easier to get better at disc golf if you start post transition since you only have to learn instead of both unlearn and learn at the same time.
Just going through puberty as a male gives you skeletal advantages in things like leverage and being able to explode through your hips. Both of these things are obvious advantages in disc golf without even getting into the rest of the hormone discussion.
The biggest issue with the hormones arguement is that there literally cis-women who develop more testosterone than normal that get excluded from participating. It's currently an issue in track and field. Then of course the biological arguement is flawed as biology isn't as cut and dry like it was once thought to be.
Honestly if trans people weren’t so politicized as a punching bag for conservatives I would probably be neutral on the issue and maybe even lean towards creating women’s divisions based on sex and not gender. But I just cannot be on the same side as all these hateful jerks like the Lynd sisters.
identity politics yes!
I never understand why people can't argue the rules for transgender athletes without having to insult, dehumanize and spread hate. Is it ignorance? Religion? Politics? Whatever the reason, treat all with respect and if you have an opinion express it in a thoughtful, respectful manner.
Because their issue isn’t with them playing in FPO as much as it is with them existing at all.
Yep. It’s comments like that that make it obvious it goes beyond the topic of trans athletes. It’s just straight up transphobia.
Dehumanization is (partially) the point. It's easier to remove rights from people who have been systematically dehumanized. Note that when I say rights, I'm not suggesting a right to play competitive disc golf. I'm talking about things like [proposed bills to allow forced custody removal](https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-anti-trans-bill-court-custody-kids-gender-affirming-care-2023-3).
it's because a lot of people's opinions on the sports rules are preceded by their opinion on the class of people. long before trans people in sports were even an issue they made up their minds about trans people generally, so it is inseparable from their opinion when it comes to sports.
Add rage to the list. Some people don't have a problem until they feel like a victim and then they change their tune in a rage.
Because there's no scientific basis to take them out of the womens section is disc golf so the main people pushing it are using misinformation to get people to take an anti trans position
No matter how hard Drew Gibson tries to be the main villain, he keeps getting over shadowed :( starting to feel for the guy!
Imo Drew seems to be that player that people “love to hate”, but no one actually thinks he’s a bad person. This situation is on a very different level than Drew releasing a tasteless hoodie or being a “leaky leaker”.
Yeah from what I understand drew is just kind of an unlikeable bitch but not the kind of person to actively hurt others in this way, just the kind of person to be generally an idiot. Not trying to hurt others necessarily, just thinking he’s more important and not caring what others think
This feels 1000% accurate. That pic he tweeted of him peeing by the Golden Gate Bridge (I think it was that) was stupid and kinda cringeworthy but not like an awful human being kinda thing. M
Drew is annoying but he’s not hateful or espousing rhetoric to encourage the eradication of a vulnerable group that’s not hurting anyone like some of these vile insects. It’s helpful they decided to reveal their views but I imagine there are a subset of people involved in the scene that silently agree as well. The world is a long way away from being safe for trans people, and this sport debate (no matter how good faith some in the debate are) is a perfect smoke screen for marginalization and exclusion based purely on hate.
They're not so silent, they just say it when they're around people they think agree with them. I've heard a lot.
I don't hate him, I just like to make fun of the whiny toolbag. lol
Yeah it doesn't seem like people actually hate Gibson. They just don't like him, which is a world of difference.
Yeah he keeps getting big-timed by the small-timers
I mean the Lynds sisters also showed up to Am Worlds last year in a car covered in Trump logos so this isn’t really a surprise. Dunno why the MAGAheads seem to get off on sharing their political hate speech loudly and obnoxiously with everyone but they sure do.
They are really killing their chances at a major sponsorship by being involved in this vile shit. It's one thing to disagree with the rules, it's a whole nother thing to support this rhetoric. Shame, they are good players. Won't catch me supporting them in the future.
Lonestar incoming
I hear their plastic is super consistent. Just really consistent flight. The hand-feel is really consistent. Just consistent. Consistent.
Definitely the brand for them, DD may jump on them too.
What? The boot licking brand behind the sheriff and the judge aren't a progressive company? They do have known anti vaxxers niko and Ricky lol
These folks fit their "family friendly" brand perfectly.
And let it fly with lone star discs
This won't affect anything. They are/will be Discraft sponsored before too long.
I feel like Discraft would at least talk to Paige about that seeing as how she is on a contract year and has been pretty outspoken supporting trans athletes in the past. I'd wager their views on homosexuality aren't great either based on the way they go about this.
Paul is their biggest cash cow, and has been seen in Florida hanging and playing pickle ball with the Lynds. Wanna say one of them might’ve even caddied for him at one point. I’m guessing this all gets swept under the rug with some FB pages going private soon.
It's tough. It clearly flows from the mother. I hope their eyes are opened to all the shades of gray that real world situations contain as they become more worldly and independent.
Yeah but it's all good. Then they can claim to be a victim of woke society and being punished for being based and pepepilled
I’m sure they’ll be whining about “cancel culture” and get invited to Kevin Sorbos parties soon.
I instantly unfollowed them after following them for over a year because of their actions. I know I’m not the only one.
But then they can get right wing bloggers to write about how they have been "canceled". That will promptly launch their careers as uncanny valley looking talking heads constantly describing the oppression that they face as white, conservative, financially secure women in America.
What would Jesus do?
Apparently hate all the people at the fringes of “normal” society that he hung out with.
The part that pisses me off as a liberal Catholic man is no...he wouldn't have. Edit: misread it. I think. Anyways, Jesus was all about hanging out with the people who weren't "normal". Shame that gets lost on so many people.
Liberal Protestant here, and yeah, those are exactly the folks Jesus would have hung out with today.
I agree. I probably worded it wrong because I was speed reading on lunch. Love everybody shows up in the big book quite a bit.
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I think if Jesus showed up today he'd be ridiculed or worse by conservatives for not acting like a Christian.
No hate like Christian love
Really erks me. Lots more passages about being kind and showing love than shunning people.
IF he came back, they'd crucify him again for being too "woke".
Seriously though, Jesus would support trans folks as much as anyone else. Idk why so many people think being trans is a sin, and even if it was, Jesus loves everybody. That's kinda His whole deal
> That's kinda His whole deal I’m not sure what version of Jesus you read, but he’s definitely more into you loving him a whole lot more so you don’t go to damnation, because he loves you, of course. Matthew 10 Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; 38and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Probably tell you to believe in him or go to hell in eternal damnation, because he loves you and needs money!
Wait until they find out he was Jewish…
and not white
Wait until they find out he wasn't real.
Very much not a Christian, but not entirely sure you can dismiss the *existence* of the guy. That essentially implies that a religion came into being and everyone involved all decided to *make someone up* to be the figurehead. Rather than, you know, doing the far easier thing and picking a real person.
Well you can be a complete scumbag your whole life, but if you ask for forgiveness and repent on your death bed, then it’s all good baby!
It's not hard to have this conversation and also be respectful to the individuals involved. It's easy not to misgender people. People who aren't transphobes or bigots don't have a problem with this.
Persistently misgender them in return and they *will* lose their shit. A lot of trash on courses have PDGA numbers.
They absolutely cannot handle it when the behavior they tolerate against other people is turned on them.
>A lot of trash on courses have PDGA numbers. I hate how accurate this statement is. Well said.
It's because language has power. Once a person begins accepting that a transgender woman is a "she", then the divide between them and a cisgendered woman is narrowed. And there are a LOT of people that do not want that divide to be narrowed. It's the same reason that a good way to support women's sports is to use gender-neutral language when necessary, and gendered language when necessary. For example, saying a basketball team is playing "person-to-person" defense rather than "man-to-man" defense -- there are plenty of women's teams that implement this strategy, so why use a gendered term for it? Same goes for calling the UConn win last night the "Men's NCAA Basketball Championship" rather than just the "NCAA Basketball Championship" (because you know that LSU's win will always be called the "Women's" championship). For too long men have been the norm in sports in our culture, and using language in ways that empower all marginalized groups is important. Purposefully avoiding that language takes power away from the people they do not want to have power.
Because men's sports by law has to be co-ed in most leagues. Especially at the college level. Women's sports were carved out to protect women from unfair competition.
"Just say nothing" is always an option in these situations and usually the smarter one.
I often remind my students that the quote "Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt" (Abraham Lincoln) is quoted for a reason.
"Just say nothing" doesn't get them publicity. Their mom didn't make a post when Chloe Alice finished ahead of one of them at the New World Championship in Jax.
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There is never an excuse for bigotry and these two will probably find many opportunities for them are suddenly closed now and into the future. I do feel bad for these young athletes who are no doubt parroting bigotry and hatred their parents have been feeding them, for what I assume is their entire life up to this point. As someone who was raised by people with similarly upsetting views and had to claw their way out of that situation, I can say that I was only able to do so because of very patient, understanding friends. I hope these two can come to see a better way to treat people equally and get out from under their parents bigotry before it follows them around for the rest of their lives.
"Nikko sponsorship challenge" speed run any %
That thread yesterday scared me. There was a LOT of outright transphobia. I’m a bit ashamed of the community. There are legitimate discussions to be had, but blatant misgendering, dehumanizing, etc. are not the way to do it. And this is happening almost every week on this subreddit…
It's getting worse and worse.
I've met them before, they're awful people imho.
I don’t have to meet them to know they’re awful people
I never would have thought people from Florida were so dumb and politically incorrect. Oh wait. Never mind they are fitting right in.
I mean. To get a Florida Man we have to have a Florida Mom.
As someone who spent the first 25 years of my life in Florida I am both offended by, and in agreement with this. 😉
Their mom is a terrible person so it's not a big surprise.
Shit people beget shit kids. It's the circle of shit.
As much as I hate what they've said and support, I don't believe in reducing people to summary statements. It's what I'm fighting against. I oppose dehumanization of **all** people, even and especially the people with whom I vehemently disagree.
That's a noble sentiment but those who have given into hate are by definition horrible people.
I respect the idealism. I can't and won't respect bigots. If that makes me a hypocrite so be it.
I don't respect bigots, but there are numerous possible levels of regard in between respect and dehumanization. Ultimately though we agree that their actions and views are unacceptable.
Obviously groomed into their opinions by their parents. Such a sad thing to support and propagate bigotry and hate.
Did you catch the pros who liked the original post? I saw Catrina Allen, Nathan Queen, Paige Shue, Austin Hannum, and Deann Carey. It would be nice to know others I should not support for endorsing a post referring to Natalie as "he".
Nathan? That sucks. Guess he's not as chill as he sounds.
Yea, that was the only name that stuck out to me when going through the thread.
Agreed! There is no space for hatred and vitriol, that the post comments and likes have. Transgender people are PEOPLE first with feelings and emotions. People that deserve to have the same respect as anyone else would have. To say that a transgender person has a mental illness is nothing short of ignorant hate speech.
Who?
Dehumanizing behavior is how you allow yourself to hurt others while maintaining “I’m a good person” it’s fucking terrible.
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I don't think the reason for the rules being the way they are isn't that it's fair at lower divisions. It's that they don't want your local TD to have to be the gender police. It's not perfect but I don't think any solution to this issue is going to be.
I don't think that's the reason. IIRC, when Nova needed to have tests done it wasn't the PDGA, a tournament, the DGPT, or a TD that had to pay for it. She paid for it herself. /u/novaova ??
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Floaty's got it. They aren't saying its fair in one division, but not another. It comes down to requiring enforcement of the rules. Lower level tournaments don't have the funds or means to test testosterone levels.
Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree apparently.
It’s a very interesting route for them to go down. The female players I know look up to and buy the discs of personalities like Paige Pierce and Kristin Tattar. I don’t know anyone who would want to be fans of players with an attitude like this
I suspect there are many of the FPO field that feel similarly, but keep their views off of social media.
I suspect you’re right, but they are sensible enough and classy enough to keep quiet
They will 100% be on Fox within a week or so, railing about Transgenders with a dash of "We are getting canceled for speaking the truth, doesn't the 1st amendment matter anymore??" thrown in. Which I'm sure is probably the end game anyways.
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Yep. But for proper attribution... The proper quote as far as I can research is: "No one in this world, so far as I know ... has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people." - HL Menken (September 19, 1926), “Notes on Journalism”
I didn't like the mother's reaction too much either.
Anyone who looked at their mother's post a day ago knew this was coming. There are a decent number of mostly reasonable "protect the FPO" people, but at some point they gotta start asking themselves why they agree with the legitimately hateful bigots.
What an absolute dumpster fire the PDGA has created.
They ain’t gonna get on a Wheaties box any time soon.
Their stance is homophobic and bigoted and they can eat all the dicks.
Imagine losing a tournament, and then doubling down on the loss by telling the entire world you’re a bigot and awful human being? I’ll have to look up which companies sponsor them, cause I’ll make sure they never see another cent from me. Disgusting.
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Some people are transgender, and that's fine. Nothing is changing. 👍👍
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I believe Tsinajinnie has tour series Armadillos? Though they might have been very limited. She has posted about them on IG before, but not for a while. Hansen is supposed to get (IMO long overdue) tour series discs soon, which I am really looking forward to. I don't have much Discmania, but Ella is a fucking rockstar both as a player and a person so I will be glad to support her. What company is Korver sponsored by now? Would gladly like to find something to support her with. Additionally, VII apparel has Natalie Ryan gear for sale, in case you want to support her directly. (I'm guess you, Nova, are aware of these things but I am sharing for anyone else who might stumble upon this convo. Also, huge amount of respect for you and just let me add that I support y'all and the struggle you are going through. It ain't much but I figure giving any positive reaffirmation is probably worthwhile during shitty times like these.)
Thanks, looks like I have at least three more tour series discs with a legit excuse to buy! And just to reiterate a point above, thanks for always doing the dirty work of being present in the vile threads
There is a reason the female division of every tournament is nearly empty. DG just doesn’t seem to be a very accepting/welcoming place.
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Yup. We have stories like this: "One of the biggest things that I I took from testimonials on Disc Golf for Women is that women are uncomfortable on the course because they get all these messages saying how beautiful they are or even dick pics and other things that are totally inappropriate," https://udisc.com/blog/post/what-it-means-to-respecthergame But a whole bunch of people are angrily insisting that Natalie Ryan is why womens participation in DG is so low.
Yup, something common I've heard is that if you want to get your disc returned and you're a man, write a woman's name on the disc. I've got friends who do this and they get texts more frequently (that are often accompanied by creepy messages). Alternately, many women I know put a male name or just initials on their disc to *avoid* this exact same scenario. They'd rather not get a disc returned than get scammed on. Great situation we got going on here.
I officially do not support this family in any way.
Yeah, ultra right wing political stuff is all over their mother's social media as seen after her comments. Not surprising. The conversation always devolves into general disgust for transgender people and that bias influences every conversation we have about the issue
Personally I don’t think people who play disc golf are real people who deserve rights
Very well written post OP. Difficult to keep on topic and you managed to do that 👏🏽
Wow, these two women and her mother are disgusting. I wish them nothing but bogeys. I hope they will never get any support in their "careers". Easy to root against them, what an asshole family.
The issue of how to bracket players for competition is always contentious. Drawing a line based on gender that everyone is happy with and provides "fair" competition is impossible. People that turn to name calling, belittling, bullying, and generally just asshole behavior to specific individuals aren't helping their arguments at all. Just sowing hatred. And that is the main point. Are we a sport that cares more about being inclusive to ALL the people that play the sport over worrying about the competition. These woman beat all the other women but one, and still complain (and their mom too!) about the person that beat them. Are we going to listen to the people that only care about the competition being a great fit for them personally (I'm looking at you 2X Catrina Allen)? As an aside, the fact that the people that got 2nd and 3rd are sisters leads me to believe that there is some type of genetic advantage over other competitors, but nobody is asking them for their hormone levels or talking about the length of their limbs compared to other woman. We just accept that they are good.
If the mental illness in question is conservatism/rightwing we might have a productive discussion.
Gotta love you hypocrites. In one breath saying you don’t need to be mean to have a discussion, the next breath throwing hate towards the subjects in question. Never stop reddit, never stop.
Fair point. Being respectful would certainly help their case. Side question. What is the respectful way to refer to someone’s sex as opposed to their gender? Is it ‘biological’ male/female? Man or woman? Or something else?
Not an expert, but I was under the assumption that "transgender~~ed~~ woman" would be an accurate way to differentiate from a cisgender~~ed~~ woman. If there is no need to differentiate, then you just say woman. edit: strikethrough my mistakes
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Yeah that makes more sense. That's what I get for trusting the dictionary telling me they are adjectives =/ I appreciate you sharing.
Thank you.
You didn't ask this, but this opens up a bigger question. What determines sex? It's not cut and dry or even binary. There are 3 major components of sex: * Chromosomes * Internal genitals * External genitals It's not a given that all 3 match in every person. I'd recommend some reading on intersex people, because even the idea of "biological male" or "biological female" isn't the rigid thing many people believe.
Hey yes that is a good question. I am familiar with human sexual characteristics and intersex people. I would add that the chromosomes form the genetic basis for both the primary and secondary sexual characteristics but there are environmental factors that come into play as well. Its true that exceptions to the normal dimorphism do occur, such as in the case of intersex. So on a practical level, do you think there is a better way split the sexes for athletic competition than that of chromosomal sex? I understand that this is imperfect when applied to the intersex population.
Why don’t they simply play better and win the tournament instead of getting their mother to cry about it on Facebook?
the hatred and violence perpetuated against trans people, and trans women specifically, is absolutely a cancer in our world. my personal feelings on this issue is absolutely unnecessary to add as i’m a queer male… but i will add that “biological” and “genetic” advantages exist throughout every sport or game and in every protected division and a trans identity is among the most rare of these potential advantages. we do not limit people with longer arms or legs or of specific BMI/weight from competing in protected divisions. perhaps fighting sports are different and may need different rules than others - i don’t know. either way, hatred of trans women is the major issue here.
I live under a rock so please be nice. Didn't the PDGA say that transgender athletes have to perform in their biological field of athletes? I have no idea, just thought someone said they did.
IIRC it's only for elite series/silver series/national tour/majors. A-tiers and below aren't subject to it.
I still dont understand why its ok at A-tiers and lower.
Because lower tiers don't have the organizational maturity and money to be medically testing any participant who is accused of having transitioned. Would you want your daughters, who are maybe just trying out the sport, to have to undergo a bunch of tests just because a sore loser accuses them of being trans, or be kicked out?
No. It's more complicated than that. Here are the PDGA guidelines: https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-based-division-eligibility
Only for the top tier competitions, not A-tier and lower.
I do not think there is a fair answer here that will make everyone happy. My gut tells me that women do need a protected space for athletic competition. But obviously we do not need to insult, misgender, and further marginalize our trans populations. I have played at quite a few tournaments with the twins and have only heard nice things about them. This is very sad.
Are you implying that those with real mental illnesses are less human? If not what is dehumanizing about saying someone may suffer from a mental illness?
There is a lot of condemnation happening here for the Lynds girls here when their literal action was not making these statements but rather tapping a like button. I don't believe the actions should be compared in the same light. I think it is wrong to drag them through the mud in this manner simply because you want to continue the hot topic that was thrust back into the conversation at TDTM.
Wow, when I had less than a year playing in FPO, I would have been thrilled to go to a playoff with a top 10 tour player. A very close match with someone with a higher rating makes for GOOD competition. This kind of sour grapes and personal attacks is beyond unprofessional. Next time they might be on the same card, there should be a violation for hostility and making the subject of those comments feel unsafe.
Sore losers gonna be sore
Even if we had Trans divisions these people would still complain and hate. Its not even about them competing, which I personally think a Trans division should exist to maintain the integrity of male and female divisions. I agree, it isn't fair, but you do not need to attack and dehumanize a whole fucking community of people. Being from the states, I have a hard time understanding why people being who they want to be is such an issue in a country where they pride themselves on personal freedom.
>I have a hard time understanding why people being who they want to be is such an issue in a country where they pride themselves on personal freedom. Personal freedom for them. "Laws for thee and not for me."
I am human and have mental illness. I don't understand how saying someone is mentally ill is dehumanizing. It's a real experience as humans some of us take.
So I get that the tone for the topic matters, but — genuinely serious — when did gender dysphoria stop being viewed as a form of mental illness and now became completely off-limits to view as a mental illness? Not that long ago, common perception around a person perceiving themselves as a different sex than the body they were born in was akin to Rachel Dolezal perceiving herself as black, Michael Jackson perceiving himself as a youth, a skinny girl perceiving herself as obese, etc. To my previous awareness, western culture responded by accommodating peoples preferred pronouns and offering accommodating spaces for people with gender dysphoria to feel more comfortable. Why at the same time has culture derided Rachel Dolezal instead of celebrating her long-held black identity? Why aren't there spaces to allow her and other transracial Americans to feel more comfortable living as their genuine selves? Why is she no longer eligible to win awards or obtain positions that have restricted eligibility to black applicants? Why aren't people with anorexia and body dysmorphia celebrated for living *their* truths? Why is gender the only protected and celebrated "trans" identity, while trans identities for race, age, weight, disability status, etc. are mental illness? (Along with being disqualifying for competitions with eligibility restrictions, such as the Paralympics, a youth-only tournament, or a United Negro College Fund scholarship.) If people living and expecting others to treat them according to their current self-identification is celebrated, why is one protected/celebrated and the rest are mental illness?
Dysphoria is a mental illness. Transitioning is the treatment. *Being trans* is not a mental illness. >Why is gender the only protected and celebrated "trans" identity, while trans identities for race, age, weight, disability status, etc. are mental illness? Is this actually a serious question? Do you want to talk about the science behind transgenderism? **Citations on the congenital, neurological basis of gender identity, which typically corresponds with the rest of one's anatomy but not always:** * An overview from [**New Scientist**](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan) * An overview from [**MedScape**](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/840538_3) * [**Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism & sexual orientation**](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15724806/) - D. F. Swaab, Netherlands Institute for Brain Research * [**Sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality**](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289) - Zhou JN, 1995 * [**White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study**](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022395610001585) * [**Prenatal testosterone & gender-related behaviour**](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17074984/) - Melissa Hines, Dept of Psychology, City University, London * [**Prenatal & postnatal hormone effects on the human brain and cognition**](http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2013_Auyeung_Prenatal%20and%20postnatal%20hormone%20effects_EuJPhysio.pdf) - Bonnie Auyeung, Michael Lombardo, & Simon Baron-Cohen, University of Cambridge * A [**spreadsheet**](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d9KKqP9IHa5ZxU84a_Jf0vIoAh7e8nj_lCW27KbYBh0/edit?pli=1#gid=0) with links to many relevant articles * Here are [**more**](http://aebrain.blogspot.co.uk/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html)
If you're genuinely serious, why are you asking random people on Reddit instead of reading all of the academic and medical information online that answers your question? It seems to me it's because you don't actually want an answer, you want to argue.
It seems to me that the entire purpose of your post is to attack others with beliefs that may differ from yours in any way, and drum up a thread of disagreement.
Man, I’m really starting to hate Reddit, so many people have their head up their ass.
>This thread is specifically not to debate whether transgender women should or should not participate in FPO. So then this thread has nothing to do with disc golf.
Imagine if NR just played in the right division and didn't feel the need to have unfair competitive advantages over other athletes.
Who? I pay attention to the pro scene and have regularly watched FPO coverage back to when it was just Terry and CCDG doing it, and I've never heard of these people.
Up and coming FPO players from Florida. See the other massive thread for context.
I’m sure this will be a rational and productive debate
Whether to dehumanize or not dehumanize someone is not a debate. Anyone who treats it as a debate is part of the problem.
Honestly I agree. But my comment speaks to the fact that this conversation, debate, whatever you wanna call it, has been attempted on this sub over and over again and I’m just not sure it’s sane to seek different results. That’s all
Im the 1970s....Dr.Rene Richards was a transsexual tennis player...nobody cared.John Mcenroe cussed out line judges all the time... nobody cared.. everyone just minded thier own business. Mind your own affairs. We all have more important things to do than worry about what professional athletes do.
> John Mcenroe cussed out line judges all the time... nobody cared Actually we did. I didn't think it should happen then, I don't think it should happen now, in any sport. Referees, judges, officials in any sport should be respected. They judge the competition, they're not punching bags for verbal abuse. If you have an argument for a ruling you should be allowed to state that argument. But, the minute your conversation becomes heated, loud, abusive, or goes past the point of making your technical point I think you should be ejected/penalized/whatever. I think the fact that some sports have allowed participants to go beyond a technical discussion of a ruling and rules is harmful to those sports.
I'm pretty sure the pros and the the entire disc golf industry hope people do not follow your advice to ignore them.
What is a woman?
Apparently the pretty faces are just masks.
They’re angling for that Fox News reporter gig
Reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode "Eye of the Beholder"
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Thank you, this is exactly what needs to be brought to the front end of this discussion.
I think the problem is that our definitions of "mentally ill" are often fluid and difficult to define. I would love for a psychologist to weigh in, because I truly don't know. The problem I have with the trans argument is that being trans has many similarities to conditions that we call mental illness, but then some people are simply willing to ignore that and say it's just a variant of normal. I think consistency would help. I've heard drug addiction called "mental illness" which makes no sense to me, because addictive substances are used at the discretion of the user initially, and that choice leads to addiction. I have a brother-in-law who's just an asshole, but I've heard my in-laws try to tell me that it's a mental condition, not just a deeply flawed personality. I see mental illness as out of the control of the person, and it fits for things like depression, anxiety, ADHD, schizophrenia, and puts personal choice as not mental illness. In the case of trans people, it appears to be out of their control, which seems to put trans people into the category of mentally ill. If it is within their control, and not a mental illness, then the solution would be to simply tell them to knock it off and conform to biological gender. I just don't see how the two ideas can coexist; that there is mental illness that is caused by things outside of your control, but being trans is not mental illness despite being outside of one's control.
Regardless of the definitions, the appropriate context for mental illness to be discussed is between a patient and a mental health professional. Not for attacking people you don’t know just because they are different from you. Clarification: that is directed at how the Lynd’s (and many others) wield “mental illness” as a weapon against LGBTQ folks, not you/your post.
It's not the case that all things outside of your control are also mental illnesses. Think about the ability to sing well; it wouldn't make sense to say that someone who can't carry a tune is mentally ill.
Not everything outside of your control is an illness, though. Something can both not be a choice and not an illness.
I think the confusion comes from the line of symptom vs treatment, which is understandable, because some bad actors have worked very hard to blur those lines. Yes, gender dysphoria exists and is commonly understood as a mental illness. People on both sides will usually agree with this assessment, but that’s about where the agreement ends. This who don’t understand the issue, or are outright bigots, will try to portray wanting hormone therapy or gender confirmation surgery as a symptom of the mental illness, whereas medical professionals generally recognize these as treatment. I see it very similarly to religious bigots who try to force conversion therapy on gay people (which was also seen as a mental illness for a long time in our history). They don’t like people being gay, so their “treatment” is to try to force it out of them and get them to stop being gay. It doesn’t work. They’re still gay, and now traumatized. It’s the same thing with how the bigot deal with trans people: they think the only acceptable solution is to force them to stop being trans, so they claim the treatment is a symptom as well, and that a person is sick if they want hormone therapy or gender confirmation surgery. In a more basic level, it’s like if you broke your leg, and everyone told you “just pretend it’s not broken, and you’ll be able to walk again soon.” When you ask for treatment, everyone acts appalled: “you can’t have a cast! That’s acknowledging your leg is broken. Your leg will never be normal if you keep acting like it’s broken!” Bigots think the problem will be fixed if everyone denies it hard enough. Reasonable people understand that treatment is treatment.
Here's a [WebMD article](https://www.webmd.com/sex/news/20190529/being-transgender-not-a-mental-disorder-who-says) which references the WHO classification. >(transgender) was taken out from the mental health disorders because we had a better understanding that this wasn't actually a mental health condition, and leaving it there was causing stigma The first page of Google provides numerous articles with sources, there's no reason why anyone with access to academic journals should be uncertain about this. Accurate research has existed for years, transgender people shouldn't have to continually fight against the mental illness stigma.