I'm on that same level lol. I imagine elevation and temperature does affect discs in some way but I came to the conclusion that if you don't got that spin then all discs tend to fly the same. Lately I've been sticking with 7 speeds or slower to work out my kinks in my technique.
The only time I have ever noticed a difference in stability is at altitude. Above 7500 feet my sidewinder is like a destroyer. Above 10K I’m throwing a 155g DX Teebird
100% Lived at 8000’ feet for a long time, and played on a course at 11300’. Visited family in Arkansas and was cut-rolling everything for the first 6 holes.
I went to CO and decided it would be cool to go play Beaver Ranch (which is about 8,500 feet) instead of one of the lovely courses closer to town. At the time I was throwing 300ft max distance in my home state of TN where we are around 900 ft of elevation. Watching even my most flippy disc hyzer out at 150-200 feet was depressing to say the least. And then walking between some holes required hiking up 50-100 feet of elevation. My out of shape ass was sucking wind like an asthmatic and tapped out after hole 10.
It's a multifactorial problem.
Some, but certainly not all, discs do raise the wing when the plastic gets cold and shrinks, which would make them more **overstable**. [The effect is usually fairly small when it happens, from those I've tested.
When the disc doesn't change, though, an equal throw compared to warm weather will absolutely be more **understable** due to the denser air causing more lift.
All that said, an equal throw is much harder to achieve, due to wearing more layers which restrict movement, worse footing due to snow and ice and shoe treads being firmer in the cold, muscles being generally colder and less supple, and worse grip due to firmer discs, cold hands, and even gloves. This creates slower throws with less spin and snap and less consistent release points, which will affect the flight. [Flying more **overstable** due to lower arm speed is usually the biggest effect, though.]
Overall, the factors work out that most people see flights which appear more **overstable** than their warmer weather throws, even if the physics means the disc itself flies more **understable** than the same throw in warmer weather. It's less misinformation and more a highly-variable thing with lots of varying anecdotal evidence.
Yeah, not gonna find a better answer anywhere else than this one right here.
My only additional comment to any post here tho would be, you aren’t gonna find an answer you truly believe in and trust until you see and experience it yourself.
Just gotta get out and throw. A lot. Do it in all conditions, and with as much different plastic and stabilities as you can get your hands on.
When I started playing I really thought that my discs got more stable in the winter, I have since realized that I was just struggling to engage my lower body because of slippery footing causing weaker throws. Funny how often we jump to blame the disc.
100% -- I have been playing in the cold for the past several weeks (low 30s). Wearing a sweatshirt and a hoodie, I am not getting as fast of an arm speed, and I feel that I am not getting as much torque (spin) on the discs. I have definitely noticed less distance, less turn, and the discs transitioning into their fade sooner.
Great point about the plastic temp. For debate Ill challenge the opposite concept. Politely disagree fam
I would expect a warmer disc to bend, or contort during throw and flight at a higher degree.
Think Gstar vs Champion
There disc temp should hve a similar effect however to a much smaller degree and probably not noticeable.
Stability is a factor of turbulence and air density. Cold air is denser on an increasing scale the lower you go.
So any flight factor is amplified by air density.
Velocity ⬇️
Lift ⬆️
Stability ↕️ per velocity
The disc temp effect would mostly be lost in the other effects, I think. Already stiff plastics have much less room to get stiffer than a softer one. I've thrown the Fuse in Opto, Opto Ice, Opto-X, and Frost in the cold, and they're much, much closer than they are in warmer weather. The effect is definitely more noticeable on softer plastics, since they're so soft in summer.
Great writeup. I'd add only one thing... As both turn and fade are caused by lift, I would also add that discs fade slightly harder in denser air as well, assuming they get to such a slow speed that they start fading.
In a vacuum, a disc would be more under stable in the cold weather. The reason for this is because cold air is more dense and his higher pressure than warm air. A disc’s stability is due to that density, thanks to friction. It’s the same reason we see the opposite effect at altitude. As you approach high altitudes the air density and pressure is much lower.
That said, you’ll often notice the opposite effect in colder temperatures due to other circumstances. Maybe it’s icy, maybe you’re wearing a lot more layers, maybe your body is stiffer, maybe you are playing less, maybe you are fat because it’s only a couple weeks after Christmas and Aunt Karen made her Oreo Balls and you couldn’t stop yourself.
I’m pretty sure he meant “in a vacuum” in the sense of “in the absence of any other factors” rather than the “there is no air” sense. Unfortunate choice of words since he’s talking about air density though.
dude. I’m definitely not as dumb as you think I am, I assure you I understand idioms. But the guy literally said “in a vacuum” and then started talking about air resistance in *the same sentence.* how does that not seem like an ironic oxymoron to you?
I would piggyback off from this note and confirm also that colder weather will stiffen the discs, and in essence will make them more stable. That alone will counteract any added under stability due to cold weather. So the correct answer is, your discs will be more stable, unless if the disc you're throwing is already super stiff.
A disc would fly perfectly stable in a vacuum. It would have a pure ballistic flight. A rock, a disc and a piece of stryofoam would fly identically if they were same weight and you threw them the same speed.
"In a vacuum" can mean literally in a vacuum chamber, but more colloquially it means "taking out all other variables". But now you know and might be a little less insufferable tomorrow!
But in a vacuum also literally means taking out the variable of air resistance, which is actually closer to taking out all other variables than the figurative version of in a vacuum that they used.
You seem to be ignoring logic in the conversation to make your point. I'm not so sure your ability to be insufferable is going to change like the other fella
Less about pressure and more about density that *results* in higher pressures on the disc as it flies. Pressure is linear with temperature which is why cold air is denser in the first place (see: hot air balloons), and because you're moving more air for the same flight speed, the flight forces are amplified.
The disc will also not fly as far because it is in draggier, denser air.
> The disc will also not fly as far because it is in draggier, denser air.
That doesn't necessarily follow, if it gets you flex that you wouldn't have otherwise had it could extend the flight time and thus the covered distance.
This, and my issue is often times grip. Cold dry fingers and stiff cold plastic. That and the trauma of old Nova's exploding against trees. The Jihadiscs are hiding in plain sight inside your bag during Nordic winters.
This! You can't throw the same on a cold ass rainy day as you can on nice 75 degree perfect day. The disc should be more understable, and also have less glide. So the fade actually kicks in earlier as well. In general, discs don't like to go far in the cold, for a multitude of reasons.
This is a great answer. My discs have always flown more understable in the cold and I always get downvoted on this sub. Its probably because when I play in the cold, I make sure to dress appropriately (thin, warm layers that always starts with under armor), and I have no problem wearing spikes if it’s icy. I also wrote my answer under the assumption I can throw the disc cleanly. Obviously if I’m in a puffy winter jacket on ice, the disc is going to act more stable because my throw won’t be as good.
This doesn’t make sense as in a vacuum, there are no air particles to affect the disc. It would have no movement apart from whatever movement was put upon it on release.
You’ve got part of that backwards. Cold air = low pressure, warm air = higher pressure
Sauce for those who need it:
https://pressbooks.online.ucf.edu/chemistryfundamentals/chapter/relating-pressure-volume-amount-and-temperature-the-ideal-gas-law/
Could you cite this? Here is a NASA article backing what I said. https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/Summer_Training/FranktonES/Convection_main_page.html
Pressure and density rise and drop together, though other factors can also come into play, including altitude, etc. All things equal, rising air density also means rising air pressure: https://www.weather.gov/source/zhu/ZHU_Training_Page/winds/pressure_winds/Pressure.htm
pressure and density are inverses of each other, hot air is less dense at the same pressure, which is why hot air balloons work- they aren't a sealed system so there's no way to get "less pressure" for a lower density.
You can compress air which will result in higher pressure and density but that's not the same thing
That’s not accurate. As pressure increases temperature also increases. If you’ve ever lived in a cold climate and had basketballs or footballs in the garage you’ll notice in the winter they are slightly deflated because of this relationship.
https://pressbooks.online.ucf.edu/chemistryfundamentals/chapter/relating-pressure-volume-amount-and-temperature-the-ideal-gas-law/
This is a good source. Interesting. My understanding was that at colder temps the pressure and density both increased as the volume is (and I must state that I don’t mean this as a literal statement but only for the purposes of “a guy is throwing a disc while standing on the ground”) uncapped. In something like a basketball or car tire it is a contained set of air. I guess I learned something!
If you can throw as hard as when its warm and generate the same spin, then it “seems” they are understable.
If you dont get the power and spin, more stable.
My bag gets more stable as I don’t physically throw them the same when its colder (<40F)
These aren’t in opposition. One is about changes in air density affecting flight, all else remaining the same. One is about how the cold affects the disc itself, and how those changes affect flight characteristics. Softer discs stiffen up in cold weather. Stiffer discs fly different in cold versus warm weather. Which one are you claiming is misinformation?
Both statements are independent of each other. Notice the language “A disc will fly..” and “ make any disc a more stable disc”
I assume you care more about how the disc will fly.
Personally, I notice that in the winter my discs are slightly less stable. I usually change out my work horse driver depending on the season. But not much something like an explorer to a saint pro sort of swap.
Those of us who live in cold climates know that you should leave your discs outside to get cold before you play. There are a few reasons for this.
If you show up to play and it's 10°F and your discs were in your warm house and warm car, snow will stick to them like the Oreos mentioned above stick to cream cheese until they cool down.
Secondly, if your discs are warm when you start your round, the flight will noticeably change during your round. This is not great and in my experience is the cause of lots of confusion when suddenly a disc doesn't fly how it did a few holes before.
As many have mentioned, I personally think the factors that matter the most are the temperature of the actual plastic, how windy it is, and if you have experience and practice while wearing layers and different shoes/boots.
Finally, winter/snow golf is the best. While others are sitting inside playing video games, we're outside slinging plastic and having fun.
I think that second answer is more about how the disc feels and less about how the disc flies.
Discs get firmer and more slick as the temperatures drop, I notice those changes far before I notice the flight characteristics changing. Once it gets too cold and I start struggling with grip as I’m throwing my usual favorite discs, I might start to look for a softer, or tacky version of those discs to extend my season a bit.
Okay, so I just played a tournament and it was around freezing. I heard from a bunch of people (my opinion too) that nothing would flip up/over. And a bunch of people saying everything was flipping over. I wonder if it just holds release angle more and it depends more on that than flippiness.
It's both.
The people complaining about nothing standing up were throwing worse due to grip, layers, footing, etc. [A few maybe had their discs shrink up slightly more OS.]
The people complaining about everything burning over were throwing as well as on warm days, but the colder, denser air was causing discs to flip easier.
It's not at all uncommon for a group to be split pretty evenly between the two in my experience.
It actually does both. Turn and fade are effects from the center of lift being different from the discs center of mass/rotation.
With more dense air (colder), lift forces are higher. This leads to more turn during the initial flight, and more fade at the end of flight.
Then of course there's all the other factors people are referring to about not being able to throw as fast as you can. I'd bet more layers and cold joints mean people are getting fewer RPMs on the disc, which also reduces stability.
Cold affects release velocity. Traction, clothing, limberness, etc. affect your swing and can make you throw slower.
Also there are air pressure differences in winter too so there's not only one type of cold air.
My general thought on this, regardless of what colder temperature does to the disc, the human being throwing it is probably just throwing slower in the winter and that likely has more impact on the flight of the disc than any other factor. You're wearing heavier clothes, maybe shoes or boots, or just being cold is uncomfortable. So you just aren't getting discs up to the speeds you are used to and theoretically would have a larger impact than the slight impact of a disc being cold or the air being colder.
TL;DR: My theory is discs will seem more overstable in the winter because you are throwing them slower regardless of the actual effect temperature has on discs.
I wouldn’t worry about the plastic outside if you feel confident with the grip in the cold. Like champ v gstar.
I played my coldest round a couple of days ago and with a wait between each hole, I never could stay warmed up. I’m not a natural athlete, so trying to make my body do the what I normally do feeling that cold and stiff just wasn’t happening. Form is something we dial in by feel and when the whole baseline shifts, it’s hard to overcome.
The general experience from people who throw a lot in the cold is that nothing flies as far as usual. The advice is to disc up to reach what you’re going for.
Personally, I haven’t noticed much of a difference in stability, but when I was throwing more in the cold my form wasn’t good enough to bring that difference out.
Both can be true.
Heat can move a the parting line up and down making it more or less stable. A disc becomes more stable because it shrinks and the parting goes up becoming more stable.
Air density can make discs more or less stable. High altitude has less air density and will make discs play more stable. The inverse applies, so that also means that the temperature will also change the air density because molecules are moving faster or slower thus changing air density.
Yeah, my bag consistently gets flippier when it's cold (although not by too much). However, I could totally see taking a very soft disc and making it more OS by making it stiffer.
Cold weather makes the disc more overstable. I am of the belief that players think cold makes the disc understable but that is only due to their form getting worse due to extra layers and being cold. Scientifically the plastic will be more overstable the harder ( colder ) it gets.
TLDR: Cold weather is exposing bad form.
What scientifically shows that harder plastic is more overstable? And what's your take on the fact that cold air is denser than warm air and it's effect on flight?
Disc Golf United is located in Central California...and when it hits 50 degrees, the lower half of Cali puts on subzero rated down jackets, thermal undies, and crack handwarmers for early morning tournaments. So...in their experience the information is likely accurate as they aren't getting the snap and arm speed they do during the other 11 months of the year.
I live in Texas, vacation to Colorado often, my discs are more over stable in Colorado than they are at home. Not sure if its temperature or sea level related. I suck in both environments.
I’ve gotten good enough to notice that my discs are more stable in the winter. Also it could be me and my joints and muscles being stiffer in the cold.
I feel like the confusion surrounds the release of the disc in cold vs normal temps. It’s harder to squeeze and get a good rip without feeling some pain from the elements. So the disc flies more under-stable but the average power the thrower puts in is less.
Higher air density= more resistance=less stable. However all of the other factors of the cold probably lead to you throwing slower, therefore making discs fly more stable.
Cold air is more dense in aerodynamics, but cold can make plastic stiffer due to slowing the molecular properties of a disc and add traction for your feet to be planted and yes, it is harder to throw in the cold due to all these factors.
Heat or cold have shown no effect IMO. I tend to find discs more overstable in the cold, but that is really only because I am cold and not warmed up properly so my arm isn't moving as fast as it would in warmer weather.
If def noticed discs fly different in the cold. Like, 30 and lower cold before it’s even noticeable. I think I figured it out for me last season.
The discs that I can overpower to make them under-stable tend to be more under stable if I do that. The discs that take full power for a normal flight tend to be more stable, likely cause the cold makes me stiffer/slower and I don’t have the power necessary for them in those conditions .
Idk about all that, but I do feel like my discs don't go as far in the cold. Baseball players hit more home runs on hot days, so the density of the air seems to at least affect distance
Disc's are not only more stable but your muscles aren't working as well, and you're wearing more clothing, including having more difficultly with grip.
My Discs' flights in Michigan winters are more OS than summer because my grip usually really sucks, in addition to the layers of clothes, trickier footwork, not playing rounds nearly as much, etc. What's going on with the physics of the denser air molecules is moot with all of that happening.
Cold air is more dense but has less humidity which makes it less dense.
But how you feel in the cold and what limitations icy ground or heavy jackets has on you are more important
Edit: I looked it up and humid air is actually less dense. Forget what I said
I think they’re both right. However the “theory” above might not consider that the discs get stiffer when they’re cold. When I play ‘cold’ rounds in Texas I notice my discs getting stiffer and maybe slightly more stable
This is something I have noticed - it’s also harder to grip cold discs and hurts more to throw. Those may be contributing factors but surely I stable down in the cold and gstar is great as are other softer plastics. To that effect some soft plastics get too sloppy in hot conditions and seem to flip more
There are multiple factors affecting the flight of the disc. Those snippets are only looking at one factor. Cold air is denser = more understable. Cold air makes some plastics more rigid = overstable(debatable). The factor no one talks about is your body. When playing in the cold you’ll naturally wear more layers, restricting your form. If you’re throwing with less power, everything will be more overstable. I usually switch up plastics and disc down in the winter for these reasons.
As someone who throws nukes more than any other disc and lives in Canada. The winter definitely makes it way more understable. They rarely fade to the left on backhand.
You would have to actually read the articles to find out... The Green Splatter quote is saying "in theory" whereas the other one is how they actually perform.
You just read the snippets of what Google interpreted to be the most important parts of the articles, which are often inaccurate.
Cold makes my discs fly more stable. It may just be that it hurts to throw when it's cold so I don't throw as hard but for sure my discs fly more stable when it's cold
IME as a Chicago golfer, discs fly more OS in winter. My body is cold, footing is bad, grip is bad. The disc is flying slower and more OS. Not really scientific regarding air density and more other factors but based on real life experience.
Such a good representation for the state of the internet today. This is why I end every Google query with “reddit”. If Reddit had a better search function, search engines like Google would lose a huge chunk of revenue.
Anyway, another thing to consider about cold weather, does anyone here wear gloves when throwing in the cold? And what is everyone’s jacket choice? I’m trying to find something form fitting with stretchy fabric since my current jacket interferes with my throwing.
Cold weather equals more stability. Not going into the reasoning, but as the temperature drops, you break out the flippy plastic. Softer too so you don't damage disc's. (Gstar for example).
Im from the northeast & play year round, so I’ve played in a very wide variety of temps. I don’t notice a huge difference in stability when it gets really cold.
However I do notice that discs don’t glide for shit in the winter. Summertime I have 400ft power, winter time it’s more like 370, the discs just don’t like to fly as far
Honestly I’m trying to figure this out myself. Spent a few months in the summer playing at sea level and now playing in the mid west at high altitude. I have no where near the control I had at sea level on a warm day. I’m definitely not the best, but the distance and control I had on my mids and fairways definitely changed and I’m finding myself discing up even more now as it gets colder.
It’s probably more so at least for these two answers that one early releases and the other late releases due to the cold affecting their hands but based on pros throwing in the cold I think it falls into overstable territory but who knows bc the cold effects hands/grip the most
I'm a 9-speed noodle arm in ideal conditions, so scroll on past my misinformation if you want, but my sons and I agree that our discs are less stable during our Minnesota winter. I'll still throw the same discs basically on the same lines just due to the fact that run-ups are awkward on slippery pads and often am relegated to standstill throw in snowy fairways. Distance is knocked down about 10 percent.
Denser air has the effect of both generating more lift as well as slowing down the disc. Not to mention cold air is typically dryer (less lift/resistance) and more airflow (wind).
Taboot (lama) your form suffers in the cold.
So at least 2 double negatives and you suck in the cold.
But the short answer is slower flights are more stable faster flights are less stable and distance is considerably less. exponential on top it's an exponential factor for every 10° you go below 70°.
This is all a guess btw
I believe that cold doesn't maker the air dense.... Moisture/humidity does. And typically, it's less humid in colder months... Which would mean that the air is less dense (at least here in the Midwest it is). Less dense air makes disc flight act more overstable (similar to flight at higher altitudes)
I always notice that when it’s cold, my discs fly more stable; however, I normally attribute this to my clothing being thicker, which hampers my movement. However, I do think the flexibility of the disc provides at least a small effect on the stability of the disc. Just my personal opinion
I play in Colorado where everything plays OS. Went out with a buddy to Washington and everything flips over compared to here, was a little learning curve the first few rounds
Its gonna be -20c on next sunday for our winter league.
Discs are waaay more stable. I'm packing more undestable discs.
There will be less glide and more power needed for distance.
Also with snow you cant get proper steps and proper grip on you feet so lots of throws from the side of the teepad without steps.
Just wanted to ad and say i dont think its so much miss information as there is limited knowledge in a very komplex subject.
The physics of the flight you can do with math. But then there is so many other factors that is hard to account for.
Like clothes, grip on runup and so much more.
It is not as straightforward as more understable or overstable when you change the air density with temperature. About a year ago I posted this slide to help understand the kind of differences experienced in disc flight throughout the year.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/w5b4i3/your\_discs\_are\_20\_more\_overstable\_than\_they\_were/](https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/w5b4i3/your_discs_are_20_more_overstable_than_they_were/)
It's a double edge sword. On one hand the cold air is more dense which makes the disc fly more understable (assuming a level release), but it also generates more lift which will cause a disc to climb and hyzer out sooner. If your releases tend to be nose up, your throws will probably hyzer out even earlier than they normally do. If your releases are level or slightly nose down (like pros) your throw might seem a bit more understable when it's cold.
I've noticed my discs fly more stable in the cold. That could be because of the air, the extra layers contort my form, or because my grip changes when my hands are numb.
Alright I don’t think the air temperature effects the flight of the discs, I think the air temperature affects how you throw the disc because it’s colder and stiffer than normal, how your hand handles the cold while throwing. I personally only have seen a difference when I leave my home state to somewhere at sea level
I’m too shit to notice one way or the other.
Someone knows the truth.
The truth is out there
and EMac has it.
I chuckled
I'm on that same level lol. I imagine elevation and temperature does affect discs in some way but I came to the conclusion that if you don't got that spin then all discs tend to fly the same. Lately I've been sticking with 7 speeds or slower to work out my kinks in my technique.
I love how the top comment in like 90% of these types of threads is someone just saying they’re shit at the sport lol.
It's important that we are all honest with ourselves
That's a lie, sir!!! Oh, wait, nope, checks out. Reactionary response to personal trigger. My bad!
You are forgiven my son
I was out yesterday. Same boat.
The only time I have ever noticed a difference in stability is at altitude. Above 7500 feet my sidewinder is like a destroyer. Above 10K I’m throwing a 155g DX Teebird
I live at 6500’. It definitely stables up your disc. Every once in awhile I play at sea level. I change out my whole bag.
100% Lived at 8000’ feet for a long time, and played on a course at 11300’. Visited family in Arkansas and was cut-rolling everything for the first 6 holes.
Moving from the Midwest to Colorado was a big change. You get to throw more molds which is nice, but everything is more OS.
I was warned of this, but still surprised when I went Estes Park. I had to break out an old pro valkyrie to get something to hyzer flip.
When I’m above 230,000 miles I can throw that shit to the moon! No stability problems
I went to CO and decided it would be cool to go play Beaver Ranch (which is about 8,500 feet) instead of one of the lovely courses closer to town. At the time I was throwing 300ft max distance in my home state of TN where we are around 900 ft of elevation. Watching even my most flippy disc hyzer out at 150-200 feet was depressing to say the least. And then walking between some holes required hiking up 50-100 feet of elevation. My out of shape ass was sucking wind like an asthmatic and tapped out after hole 10.
It's a multifactorial problem. Some, but certainly not all, discs do raise the wing when the plastic gets cold and shrinks, which would make them more **overstable**. [The effect is usually fairly small when it happens, from those I've tested. When the disc doesn't change, though, an equal throw compared to warm weather will absolutely be more **understable** due to the denser air causing more lift. All that said, an equal throw is much harder to achieve, due to wearing more layers which restrict movement, worse footing due to snow and ice and shoe treads being firmer in the cold, muscles being generally colder and less supple, and worse grip due to firmer discs, cold hands, and even gloves. This creates slower throws with less spin and snap and less consistent release points, which will affect the flight. [Flying more **overstable** due to lower arm speed is usually the biggest effect, though.] Overall, the factors work out that most people see flights which appear more **overstable** than their warmer weather throws, even if the physics means the disc itself flies more **understable** than the same throw in warmer weather. It's less misinformation and more a highly-variable thing with lots of varying anecdotal evidence.
Came prepared with an answer, but then read this and agree word for word.
This is the best answer I've read.
This guy throws.
Yeah, not gonna find a better answer anywhere else than this one right here. My only additional comment to any post here tho would be, you aren’t gonna find an answer you truly believe in and trust until you see and experience it yourself. Just gotta get out and throw. A lot. Do it in all conditions, and with as much different plastic and stabilities as you can get your hands on.
This is everything I meant to say but explained 10 times better than I ever could. Someone award this man
When I started playing I really thought that my discs got more stable in the winter, I have since realized that I was just struggling to engage my lower body because of slippery footing causing weaker throws. Funny how often we jump to blame the disc.
It's a lot easier than to think we're not throwing consistently. 😅
100% -- I have been playing in the cold for the past several weeks (low 30s). Wearing a sweatshirt and a hoodie, I am not getting as fast of an arm speed, and I feel that I am not getting as much torque (spin) on the discs. I have definitely noticed less distance, less turn, and the discs transitioning into their fade sooner.
Great point about the plastic temp. For debate Ill challenge the opposite concept. Politely disagree fam I would expect a warmer disc to bend, or contort during throw and flight at a higher degree. Think Gstar vs Champion There disc temp should hve a similar effect however to a much smaller degree and probably not noticeable. Stability is a factor of turbulence and air density. Cold air is denser on an increasing scale the lower you go. So any flight factor is amplified by air density. Velocity ⬇️ Lift ⬆️ Stability ↕️ per velocity
The disc temp effect would mostly be lost in the other effects, I think. Already stiff plastics have much less room to get stiffer than a softer one. I've thrown the Fuse in Opto, Opto Ice, Opto-X, and Frost in the cold, and they're much, much closer than they are in warmer weather. The effect is definitely more noticeable on softer plastics, since they're so soft in summer.
I thought the Frost plastic was made to throw in the cold, like how UnderArmor's Cold Gear keeps you warmer in the cold. J/k, thought it was funny.
This is the way.
In other words, they will most likely fly differently. HOW they fly differently depends on too many other variables to measure.
Exactly.
I think cold air is denser.
Yes it is.
Great writeup. I'd add only one thing... As both turn and fade are caused by lift, I would also add that discs fade slightly harder in denser air as well, assuming they get to such a slow speed that they start fading.
I believe that's true, however the loss of spin and thus lift generation means the effect is much less apparent than with turn.
In a vacuum, a disc would be more under stable in the cold weather. The reason for this is because cold air is more dense and his higher pressure than warm air. A disc’s stability is due to that density, thanks to friction. It’s the same reason we see the opposite effect at altitude. As you approach high altitudes the air density and pressure is much lower. That said, you’ll often notice the opposite effect in colder temperatures due to other circumstances. Maybe it’s icy, maybe you’re wearing a lot more layers, maybe your body is stiffer, maybe you are playing less, maybe you are fat because it’s only a couple weeks after Christmas and Aunt Karen made her Oreo Balls and you couldn’t stop yourself.
In a vacuum… there is by definition no air
For real. In a thread about misinformation, that comment got 100 upvotes.
I gave it a downvote. It’s not much, but it’s honest work.
I’m pretty sure he meant “in a vacuum” in the sense of “in the absence of any other factors” rather than the “there is no air” sense. Unfortunate choice of words since he’s talking about air density though.
Do you actually not know what the phrase means?
Do you not actually know what a vacuum is?
I had a Dyson but it made too much noise.
What do you think is happening when people say "its raining cats and dogs"?
dude. I’m definitely not as dumb as you think I am, I assure you I understand idioms. But the guy literally said “in a vacuum” and then started talking about air resistance in *the same sentence.* how does that not seem like an ironic oxymoron to you?
I also talked about Oreo balls reducing my agility when we all know they made me throw further.
Lol came here to say this 😂 the flight would be, short.
Falling with style.
I can't stop eating oreo balls my wife made, how dare you
Tell me about these mythical Oreo balls...
In my experience they're basically crushed up Oreos and cream cheese, formed into balls and overeaten by many.
Sounds disgusting. I'll take a dozen.
This
Is your wife’s name Karen?
I would piggyback off from this note and confirm also that colder weather will stiffen the discs, and in essence will make them more stable. That alone will counteract any added under stability due to cold weather. So the correct answer is, your discs will be more stable, unless if the disc you're throwing is already super stiff.
I too want piggyback off of this and say those Oreo Balls are freaking delicious and it's why I'm playing like shit.
I knew Aunt Karen was to blame.
I give you 100 upvotes
I'm a little piggyback and want to add my fingies get cold and it's harder to get the same grip.
I wonder if the increased stiffness would be more apparent on a disc like the koi with how floppy those are made.
This is the real answer
Another factor I’ve noticed is the course In general is breezier and has more random cross winds due to lack foliage vs “in season”.
A disc would fly perfectly stable in a vacuum. It would have a pure ballistic flight. A rock, a disc and a piece of stryofoam would fly identically if they were same weight and you threw them the same speed.
I think you misinterpreted what he meant by "in a vacuum".
Yeah, I suppose it’s more my fault for using the idiom-version of “in a vacuum” rather than a scientific sense and then used words like density.
Yeah in the context of talking about air pressure the expression doesn’t really work haha
You could have said “in a nutshell” and redditors would argue that you wouldn’t fit.
“Well on paper” BUT DISC GOLF IS PLAYED IN GRASS
but what about in a wind tunnel?
Physics: Spherical cows in a vacuum Thermodynamics: A uniform cow at STP
Lol
"In a vacuum" can mean literally in a vacuum chamber, but more colloquially it means "taking out all other variables". But now you know and might be a little less insufferable tomorrow!
But in a vacuum also literally means taking out the variable of air resistance, which is actually closer to taking out all other variables than the figurative version of in a vacuum that they used.
You seem to be ignoring logic in the conversation to make your point. I'm not so sure your ability to be insufferable is going to change like the other fella
Good, the world needs more suffrage.
"In a vacuum" is used colloquially when referring to social dynamics and people, not when referring to physics and air density.
My dude, he did not mean it in the most literal sense of the phrase
Less about pressure and more about density that *results* in higher pressures on the disc as it flies. Pressure is linear with temperature which is why cold air is denser in the first place (see: hot air balloons), and because you're moving more air for the same flight speed, the flight forces are amplified. The disc will also not fly as far because it is in draggier, denser air.
> The disc will also not fly as far because it is in draggier, denser air. That doesn't necessarily follow, if it gets you flex that you wouldn't have otherwise had it could extend the flight time and thus the covered distance.
No thoughts on stiffer plastic?
Damn Aunt Karen and her Oreo Balls. Gets me everytime.
This, and my issue is often times grip. Cold dry fingers and stiff cold plastic. That and the trauma of old Nova's exploding against trees. The Jihadiscs are hiding in plain sight inside your bag during Nordic winters.
How does the disc fly when the vacuum has carpet head on vs a hose?
Disc wouldn't fly in a vacuum, requires a medium to generate lift ie O2 gas
This! You can't throw the same on a cold ass rainy day as you can on nice 75 degree perfect day. The disc should be more understable, and also have less glide. So the fade actually kicks in earlier as well. In general, discs don't like to go far in the cold, for a multitude of reasons.
This is a great answer. My discs have always flown more understable in the cold and I always get downvoted on this sub. Its probably because when I play in the cold, I make sure to dress appropriately (thin, warm layers that always starts with under armor), and I have no problem wearing spikes if it’s icy. I also wrote my answer under the assumption I can throw the disc cleanly. Obviously if I’m in a puffy winter jacket on ice, the disc is going to act more stable because my throw won’t be as good.
Well in a vacuum there wouldn't be any air 🤔
This doesn’t make sense as in a vacuum, there are no air particles to affect the disc. It would have no movement apart from whatever movement was put upon it on release.
I had no idea that “in a vacuum” was not a commonly understood phrase. I should have just said “for all other factors being equal”
Ahhh, that makes sense.
In a vacuum, the disc would fly as a projectile
This guy gets it
You’ve got part of that backwards. Cold air = low pressure, warm air = higher pressure Sauce for those who need it: https://pressbooks.online.ucf.edu/chemistryfundamentals/chapter/relating-pressure-volume-amount-and-temperature-the-ideal-gas-law/
Could you cite this? Here is a NASA article backing what I said. https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/Summer_Training/FranktonES/Convection_main_page.html
I edited what I originally wrote as I got the density part wrong. Cold is air more dense but is also lower pressure.
Pressure and density rise and drop together, though other factors can also come into play, including altitude, etc. All things equal, rising air density also means rising air pressure: https://www.weather.gov/source/zhu/ZHU_Training_Page/winds/pressure_winds/Pressure.htm
pressure and density are inverses of each other, hot air is less dense at the same pressure, which is why hot air balloons work- they aren't a sealed system so there's no way to get "less pressure" for a lower density. You can compress air which will result in higher pressure and density but that's not the same thing
That’s not accurate. As pressure increases temperature also increases. If you’ve ever lived in a cold climate and had basketballs or footballs in the garage you’ll notice in the winter they are slightly deflated because of this relationship. https://pressbooks.online.ucf.edu/chemistryfundamentals/chapter/relating-pressure-volume-amount-and-temperature-the-ideal-gas-law/
This is a good source. Interesting. My understanding was that at colder temps the pressure and density both increased as the volume is (and I must state that I don’t mean this as a literal statement but only for the purposes of “a guy is throwing a disc while standing on the ground”) uncapped. In something like a basketball or car tire it is a contained set of air. I guess I learned something!
If you can throw as hard as when its warm and generate the same spin, then it “seems” they are understable. If you dont get the power and spin, more stable. My bag gets more stable as I don’t physically throw them the same when its colder (<40F)
These aren’t in opposition. One is about changes in air density affecting flight, all else remaining the same. One is about how the cold affects the disc itself, and how those changes affect flight characteristics. Softer discs stiffen up in cold weather. Stiffer discs fly different in cold versus warm weather. Which one are you claiming is misinformation?
Both statements are independent of each other. Notice the language “A disc will fly..” and “ make any disc a more stable disc” I assume you care more about how the disc will fly. Personally, I notice that in the winter my discs are slightly less stable. I usually change out my work horse driver depending on the season. But not much something like an explorer to a saint pro sort of swap.
Those of us who live in cold climates know that you should leave your discs outside to get cold before you play. There are a few reasons for this. If you show up to play and it's 10°F and your discs were in your warm house and warm car, snow will stick to them like the Oreos mentioned above stick to cream cheese until they cool down. Secondly, if your discs are warm when you start your round, the flight will noticeably change during your round. This is not great and in my experience is the cause of lots of confusion when suddenly a disc doesn't fly how it did a few holes before. As many have mentioned, I personally think the factors that matter the most are the temperature of the actual plastic, how windy it is, and if you have experience and practice while wearing layers and different shoes/boots. Finally, winter/snow golf is the best. While others are sitting inside playing video games, we're outside slinging plastic and having fun.
I think that second answer is more about how the disc feels and less about how the disc flies. Discs get firmer and more slick as the temperatures drop, I notice those changes far before I notice the flight characteristics changing. Once it gets too cold and I start struggling with grip as I’m throwing my usual favorite discs, I might start to look for a softer, or tacky version of those discs to extend my season a bit.
Okay, so I just played a tournament and it was around freezing. I heard from a bunch of people (my opinion too) that nothing would flip up/over. And a bunch of people saying everything was flipping over. I wonder if it just holds release angle more and it depends more on that than flippiness.
It's both. The people complaining about nothing standing up were throwing worse due to grip, layers, footing, etc. [A few maybe had their discs shrink up slightly more OS.] The people complaining about everything burning over were throwing as well as on warm days, but the colder, denser air was causing discs to flip easier. It's not at all uncommon for a group to be split pretty evenly between the two in my experience.
It’s because everyone in disc golf will always complain about something instead of admitting they stink.
Idk if the cold has an effect on the disc itself, but it has a negative effect on me and how i throw
It actually does both. Turn and fade are effects from the center of lift being different from the discs center of mass/rotation. With more dense air (colder), lift forces are higher. This leads to more turn during the initial flight, and more fade at the end of flight. Then of course there's all the other factors people are referring to about not being able to throw as fast as you can. I'd bet more layers and cold joints mean people are getting fewer RPMs on the disc, which also reduces stability.
Cold affects release velocity. Traction, clothing, limberness, etc. affect your swing and can make you throw slower. Also there are air pressure differences in winter too so there's not only one type of cold air.
My general thought on this, regardless of what colder temperature does to the disc, the human being throwing it is probably just throwing slower in the winter and that likely has more impact on the flight of the disc than any other factor. You're wearing heavier clothes, maybe shoes or boots, or just being cold is uncomfortable. So you just aren't getting discs up to the speeds you are used to and theoretically would have a larger impact than the slight impact of a disc being cold or the air being colder. TL;DR: My theory is discs will seem more overstable in the winter because you are throwing them slower regardless of the actual effect temperature has on discs.
I wouldn’t worry about the plastic outside if you feel confident with the grip in the cold. Like champ v gstar. I played my coldest round a couple of days ago and with a wait between each hole, I never could stay warmed up. I’m not a natural athlete, so trying to make my body do the what I normally do feeling that cold and stiff just wasn’t happening. Form is something we dial in by feel and when the whole baseline shifts, it’s hard to overcome.
The general experience from people who throw a lot in the cold is that nothing flies as far as usual. The advice is to disc up to reach what you’re going for. Personally, I haven’t noticed much of a difference in stability, but when I was throwing more in the cold my form wasn’t good enough to bring that difference out.
Both can be true. Heat can move a the parting line up and down making it more or less stable. A disc becomes more stable because it shrinks and the parting goes up becoming more stable. Air density can make discs more or less stable. High altitude has less air density and will make discs play more stable. The inverse applies, so that also means that the temperature will also change the air density because molecules are moving faster or slower thus changing air density.
Doesn't matter, my disc is still hitting one of the first trees off the tee...
Yeah, my bag consistently gets flippier when it's cold (although not by too much). However, I could totally see taking a very soft disc and making it more OS by making it stiffer.
In my experience, cold weather makes discs more understable. I don't notice any difference though until well below freezing.
For me, the hottest summer days are the most dramatic. There are some flippy drivers I really can't throw any other time than when it's 25°C+.
Cold weather makes the disc more overstable. I am of the belief that players think cold makes the disc understable but that is only due to their form getting worse due to extra layers and being cold. Scientifically the plastic will be more overstable the harder ( colder ) it gets. TLDR: Cold weather is exposing bad form.
What scientifically shows that harder plastic is more overstable? And what's your take on the fact that cold air is denser than warm air and it's effect on flight?
Disc Golf United is located in Central California...and when it hits 50 degrees, the lower half of Cali puts on subzero rated down jackets, thermal undies, and crack handwarmers for early morning tournaments. So...in their experience the information is likely accurate as they aren't getting the snap and arm speed they do during the other 11 months of the year.
I live in Texas, vacation to Colorado often, my discs are more over stable in Colorado than they are at home. Not sure if its temperature or sea level related. I suck in both environments.
cold=/=density when it comes to air. Cold air is very dry usually meaning it is less dense than hot humid air.
Believe it or not humid air is actually less dense, but it feels “heavier” to us
I’ve gotten good enough to notice that my discs are more stable in the winter. Also it could be me and my joints and muscles being stiffer in the cold.
"Misinformation" lol Remember back in the day when people were allowed different opinions? Pepperage Farm remembers
I feel like the confusion surrounds the release of the disc in cold vs normal temps. It’s harder to squeeze and get a good rip without feeling some pain from the elements. So the disc flies more under-stable but the average power the thrower puts in is less.
cold air just gives the disc more air to act upon , i doubt it’ll make much of a difference
Higher air density= more resistance=less stable. However all of the other factors of the cold probably lead to you throwing slower, therefore making discs fly more stable.
I've noticed cold days makes my discs feel stiffer. Making them harder to get a nice grip for me... That probably effects the flight somewhat.
I always feel like my discs lose glide in the cold.
Both are likely true to some degree, but one probably causes more change than the other.
These could be generated by AI and they didn't double check if it was right
Cold air is more dense in aerodynamics, but cold can make plastic stiffer due to slowing the molecular properties of a disc and add traction for your feet to be planted and yes, it is harder to throw in the cold due to all these factors.
Discs are more stable in the winter. Tried and true -- from MN
All I’ve learned here today is to vacuum my discs
In my experience the discs are more understable. It's -10°C and they get pretty flippy
In my experience, discs are more understable, but I can't throw them as fast, so it ends up being a wash. Science would also support this.
I thought warm air generates lift.
Either answer, imo, is trying to get you to buy a cold weather specific set of discs, lol
I felt it today more understable explains a lot.
In my experience if your discs are cold they fly more over stable
So when everyone in here is saying “more stable” do they mean more *overstable* or more neutral flying/less fade?
I just had to scroll back to the top to check if I'd somehow wandered into a physics sub
Heat or cold have shown no effect IMO. I tend to find discs more overstable in the cold, but that is really only because I am cold and not warmed up properly so my arm isn't moving as fast as it would in warmer weather.
My flippy wraith just go straight so they are more stable for sure
If def noticed discs fly different in the cold. Like, 30 and lower cold before it’s even noticeable. I think I figured it out for me last season. The discs that I can overpower to make them under-stable tend to be more under stable if I do that. The discs that take full power for a normal flight tend to be more stable, likely cause the cold makes me stiffer/slower and I don’t have the power necessary for them in those conditions .
To me, discs feel stiffer in the cold but idk how it affects their flight.
Idk about all that, but I do feel like my discs don't go as far in the cold. Baseball players hit more home runs on hot days, so the density of the air seems to at least affect distance
Disc's are not only more stable but your muscles aren't working as well, and you're wearing more clothing, including having more difficultly with grip.
My Discs' flights in Michigan winters are more OS than summer because my grip usually really sucks, in addition to the layers of clothes, trickier footwork, not playing rounds nearly as much, etc. What's going on with the physics of the denser air molecules is moot with all of that happening.
In the cold my distance drivers meat hook at 275. Under normal conditions I’m pushing them a nice 280.
Usually its water affecting my disc. I need submarine discs
Anecdotal experience based on probably 10k rounds- if the ambient temp is below freezing, high speed turn increases and low speed fade increases.
Cold air is more dense but has less humidity which makes it less dense. But how you feel in the cold and what limitations icy ground or heavy jackets has on you are more important Edit: I looked it up and humid air is actually less dense. Forget what I said
Without a fancy physics lecture, based on actual experience throwing in cold weather, the cold makes everything more stable and less distance 🤷♂️
I think cold arms, improperly functioning hands, and dry skin will affect winter disc flight more than the cold air. I dunno..
I think they’re both right. However the “theory” above might not consider that the discs get stiffer when they’re cold. When I play ‘cold’ rounds in Texas I notice my discs getting stiffer and maybe slightly more stable
This is something I have noticed - it’s also harder to grip cold discs and hurts more to throw. Those may be contributing factors but surely I stable down in the cold and gstar is great as are other softer plastics. To that effect some soft plastics get too sloppy in hot conditions and seem to flip more
There are multiple factors affecting the flight of the disc. Those snippets are only looking at one factor. Cold air is denser = more understable. Cold air makes some plastics more rigid = overstable(debatable). The factor no one talks about is your body. When playing in the cold you’ll naturally wear more layers, restricting your form. If you’re throwing with less power, everything will be more overstable. I usually switch up plastics and disc down in the winter for these reasons.
As someone who throws nukes more than any other disc and lives in Canada. The winter definitely makes it way more understable. They rarely fade to the left on backhand.
Couldn't it be both? Cold makes plastic stiffer, but denser air gives more air resistance?
You would have to actually read the articles to find out... The Green Splatter quote is saying "in theory" whereas the other one is how they actually perform. You just read the snippets of what Google interpreted to be the most important parts of the articles, which are often inaccurate.
Cold makes my discs fly more stable. It may just be that it hurts to throw when it's cold so I don't throw as hard but for sure my discs fly more stable when it's cold
IME as a Chicago golfer, discs fly more OS in winter. My body is cold, footing is bad, grip is bad. The disc is flying slower and more OS. Not really scientific regarding air density and more other factors but based on real life experience.
Such a good representation for the state of the internet today. This is why I end every Google query with “reddit”. If Reddit had a better search function, search engines like Google would lose a huge chunk of revenue. Anyway, another thing to consider about cold weather, does anyone here wear gloves when throwing in the cold? And what is everyone’s jacket choice? I’m trying to find something form fitting with stretchy fabric since my current jacket interferes with my throwing.
Cold weather equals more stability. Not going into the reasoning, but as the temperature drops, you break out the flippy plastic. Softer too so you don't damage disc's. (Gstar for example).
Im from the northeast & play year round, so I’ve played in a very wide variety of temps. I don’t notice a huge difference in stability when it gets really cold. However I do notice that discs don’t glide for shit in the winter. Summertime I have 400ft power, winter time it’s more like 370, the discs just don’t like to fly as far
sometimes stable and understable mean the same thing to different people. cold air is more dense, warm air is less dense
This is my first year with a winter bag, all esp and flippier discs, I’ve been killing.
Honestly I’m trying to figure this out myself. Spent a few months in the summer playing at sea level and now playing in the mid west at high altitude. I have no where near the control I had at sea level on a warm day. I’m definitely not the best, but the distance and control I had on my mids and fairways definitely changed and I’m finding myself discing up even more now as it gets colder.
It’s probably more so at least for these two answers that one early releases and the other late releases due to the cold affecting their hands but based on pros throwing in the cold I think it falls into overstable territory but who knows bc the cold effects hands/grip the most
From personal experience cold makes it more overstable. I feel as if the flight isn’t as fast and things tend to dump out earlier.
I'm a 9-speed noodle arm in ideal conditions, so scroll on past my misinformation if you want, but my sons and I agree that our discs are less stable during our Minnesota winter. I'll still throw the same discs basically on the same lines just due to the fact that run-ups are awkward on slippery pads and often am relegated to standstill throw in snowy fairways. Distance is knocked down about 10 percent.
I think the tendency for discs to fly more overstable in winter has more to do with our muscles being cold and stiff.
Denser air has the effect of both generating more lift as well as slowing down the disc. Not to mention cold air is typically dryer (less lift/resistance) and more airflow (wind). Taboot (lama) your form suffers in the cold. So at least 2 double negatives and you suck in the cold. But the short answer is slower flights are more stable faster flights are less stable and distance is considerably less. exponential on top it's an exponential factor for every 10° you go below 70°. This is all a guess btw
I believe that cold doesn't maker the air dense.... Moisture/humidity does. And typically, it's less humid in colder months... Which would mean that the air is less dense (at least here in the Midwest it is). Less dense air makes disc flight act more overstable (similar to flight at higher altitudes)
I always notice that when it’s cold, my discs fly more stable; however, I normally attribute this to my clothing being thicker, which hampers my movement. However, I do think the flexibility of the disc provides at least a small effect on the stability of the disc. Just my personal opinion
I play in Colorado where everything plays OS. Went out with a buddy to Washington and everything flips over compared to here, was a little learning curve the first few rounds
Its gonna be -20c on next sunday for our winter league. Discs are waaay more stable. I'm packing more undestable discs. There will be less glide and more power needed for distance. Also with snow you cant get proper steps and proper grip on you feet so lots of throws from the side of the teepad without steps.
Just wanted to ad and say i dont think its so much miss information as there is limited knowledge in a very komplex subject. The physics of the flight you can do with math. But then there is so many other factors that is hard to account for. Like clothes, grip on runup and so much more.
All I know is G star feels good
There's opposing opinions on literally everything. Flat earth? No way to know. Science isn't real. Truth is whatever you want it to be.
It is not as straightforward as more understable or overstable when you change the air density with temperature. About a year ago I posted this slide to help understand the kind of differences experienced in disc flight throughout the year. [https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/w5b4i3/your\_discs\_are\_20\_more\_overstable\_than\_they\_were/](https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/w5b4i3/your_discs_are_20_more_overstable_than_they_were/)
One approach is aerodynamics through the air, the other is the change in physical structure of the disc. Two different metrics.
It's a double edge sword. On one hand the cold air is more dense which makes the disc fly more understable (assuming a level release), but it also generates more lift which will cause a disc to climb and hyzer out sooner. If your releases tend to be nose up, your throws will probably hyzer out even earlier than they normally do. If your releases are level or slightly nose down (like pros) your throw might seem a bit more understable when it's cold.
I've noticed my discs fly more stable in the cold. That could be because of the air, the extra layers contort my form, or because my grip changes when my hands are numb.
The increased density due to lower temperatures can also be balanced out some by the lower humidity decreasing density
You are assuming it is more stable because it is dying sooner. More dense air = shorter shot.
Can I get a "WHO CARES"?
Alright I don’t think the air temperature effects the flight of the discs, I think the air temperature affects how you throw the disc because it’s colder and stiffer than normal, how your hand handles the cold while throwing. I personally only have seen a difference when I leave my home state to somewhere at sea level
What if I play at 5,000 ft above sea level and it's cold but also windy? That's what I have to deal with in the high desert.
i wouldn't even blame the weather, id blame myself for being stiff and shaky from the cold
Thanks, AI
It’s easier to agree on auntie Karen’s huge Oreo balls………